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00:03:19 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC] 00:03:30 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@50-37-83-152.mscw.id.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes] 00:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> is there also a timey wimey irc? 00:14:14 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 00:17:55 <supermop> yellow aspect patch guy wants green/double yellow/yellow/red so thats what i am drawing 00:18:54 <supermop> but more natural to me (based on signalling i'm more familiar with) would be a distant aspect with green/yellow, and home with red/green 00:19:58 <supermop> so effectively double green/green and yellow/ double yellow/ red and yellow 00:20:42 <supermop> on the subway here they wouldn't show yellow distant aspect if home was at red though 00:20:59 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:21:52 <supermop> what do you have in germany, Eddi|zuHause ? 00:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> germany is complicated(tm) 00:23:08 <supermop> i feel like separate heads for home and distant is then easier to represent in semaphores as well 00:23:29 <supermop> with a single semaphore, hard to display 4 aspects 00:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> generally germany has two different types of signal, main signal (which show green/green-yellow/red) and advance siganls (which show green-green/green-yellow/yellow-yellow) 00:25:37 <supermop> are they ever on the same post? 00:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> main signal means "go at full speed/go at reduced speed/stop" and advance signal means "next signal will be full speed/reduced speed/stop" 00:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they can be combined 00:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there are also more modern systems where they are always combined (or unused lights left out) 00:26:55 <supermop> ottd post starts to get silly looking with more than 4 lights 00:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the newer ones try to avoid three green lights on the same post 00:28:59 <supermop> hmm 00:29:19 <supermop> i think i will draw double green as my most permissive aspect then 00:30:02 <supermop> as i understand this guy's patch, it is reserving 3 blocks, so distant signal would also be green in most permissive case 00:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well, in the case of german signals, normal state would be green+green/green, first stage of slowdown would be green+green/yellow, second stage of slowdown would be green/yellow+yellow/yellow and stop would be red+yellow/yellow 00:42:52 <supermop> Are distant signals placed below the home signals usually? 00:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 00:42:52 <supermop> ok 00:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> example: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Einfahrsignal_Friedrichsdorf_Hp2_Zs3v.jpg 00:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and this would be the semaphore variant: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Formsignale_Solarzellen_LEDs.jpg 00:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the top arm switches between red (horizontal) and green (angled), the second arm switches between nothing (vertical) and yellow (angled, in combination with the top arm this becomes green/yellow) 00:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the yellow disc switches beteween visible (yellow/yellow) and invisible (green/green), and the yellow arm below it flips between vertical (yellow/yellow or green/green) and angled (green/yellow) 00:51:34 <supermop> hmm 00:52:09 <supermop> should cheat and draw one pixel of light per aspect on the backs on signals that face straight up 00:52:19 <supermop> so you can determine aspect 00:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like "there's light shining through some hole"? 00:53:32 <supermop> yeah 00:53:52 <supermop> hmm my 4-light home over distant concept doesn't work 00:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want less lights, try the Ks system over the H/V system 00:54:52 <Eddi|zuHause> H/V is what i explained above 00:54:53 <supermop> i have green/green for clear, then green/yellow for caution, and red for stop 00:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> as i understood from the signal patch, there should be 4 states? 00:55:43 <supermop> top two lights are green and red for home, bottom two are green and yellow for distant, but that only allows 4 aspects 00:55:47 <supermop> i mean 3 00:56:12 <supermop> i can only get one 'caution' out of these 4 lights 00:57:06 <supermop> i guess that's why he wanted green/yellow/yellow/red 00:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. Ks has fewer lights, but it involves flashing states 01:01:06 <supermop> flashing green? 01:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so the 4 states would be green/flashing green/yellow/red 01:01:44 <supermop> flashing is more or less permissive than solid green? 01:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> flashing means "next signal will have reduced speed" 01:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> this is the layout: http://home.arcor-online.de/estw/ks.gif 01:06:34 <supermop> will that be confusing to players unfamiliar with it? 01:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> more confusing than the existing system already is? 01:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> minor, i think 01:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be pretty easily picked up 01:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think the palette contains flashing green 01:07:38 <supermop> well currently no signal in game displays anything other than red or green 01:07:48 <supermop> yellow is intuitive 01:08:53 <supermop> i know that in the uk, in the 80s they experimented with flashing green as more permissive than double green 01:09:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can use two lights if you want to flip colours of the lights. then you can have something like green/green, green/yellow, yellow/yellow and red/red 01:09:21 *** skybon [~user@176.77.7.124] has quit [Quit: skybon] 01:09:22 <supermop> when trying to run trains at 150 mph on lines signaled for 125 01:09:38 <sim-al2> Flashing is also somewhat common to "upgrade" aspects, like flashing red for restricting (aka drive on sight) and flashing yellow for another approach aspect 01:10:05 <supermop> color changing lights could work 01:10:40 <supermop> cold reduce all other signals to a single lamp so they are not so damn tall 01:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the original (as in TTDPatch) PBS have 3 lights vertically 01:11:11 <supermop> 3 aspects or 4? 01:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd changed that at some point to have more visual difference to the pre/exit signals 01:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> all signals only ever had 2 aspects 01:11:55 <supermop> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signalling#/media/File:Distant_signal_Hamamatsu.jpg 01:11:56 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@i210033.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:18 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@i210033.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 01:12:24 <supermop> that seems to have home at bottom, but is more like what patch author describes 01:13:23 <sim-al2> Japanese signaling is a bit weird, many railways no longer allow trains to pass signals at stop without permission, so the home/automatic distinction is slowly disappearing 01:14:21 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 01:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: pretty much nobody playing this game will have any knowledge about signals other than "green means go, red means stop" 01:20:46 <supermop> i guess green/yellow and yellow/yellow are equally intuitive as "go slower than green but faster than yellow" 01:21:05 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:23:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there is enough difference betweewn single yellow and double yellow 01:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so green/yellow fits better 01:24:08 <supermop> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_railway_signalling 01:24:45 <supermop> the color light part seems easiest, but can change the other yellow to another green 01:29:25 <supermop> could even do it with only 3 lamps if you have green/green+yellow/yellow/red 01:35:37 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 01:42:45 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 01:59:16 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:14:12 <supermop> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1163728#p1163728 02:17:55 <supermop> were semaphores added later? they are not on the same ogfx sheet 02:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> TTO had semaphores, i think TTD did not 02:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there are two sets of semaphores, one for drive-on-left and one for drive-on-right 02:20:22 <supermop> well i guess i'm going to have to do both for this guy 02:23:53 <supermop> do those lights look ok for now? 02:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> difficult to tell out of context 02:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't need a pcx 02:27:32 <supermop> ok 02:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> both grfcodec and nml can process png 02:28:51 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:30:04 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483bd7.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:56 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:32 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:53:12 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@x4d0868cd.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 04:00:10 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@x5d822539.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:06:44 <supermop> ok did semaphore versions 04:18:02 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:48:49 *** APTX [~APTX@aptx.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:57 *** APTX [~APTX@aptx.org] has joined #openttd 05:45:35 *** supermop_ [~supermop@cpe-72-227-233-40.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:47:01 *** supermop__ [~supermop@pool-108-6-12-46.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 05:52:18 *** supermop [~supermop@pool-108-6-12-46.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:54:41 *** supermop_ [~supermop@cpe-72-227-233-40.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD529C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 05:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD529C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 06:46:16 *** JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has quit [Quit: :q!] 07:00:41 *** Mek_ [~quassel@marijnalexwedding.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:19 *** Mek [~quassel@marijnalexwedding.com] has joined #openttd 07:12:49 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@89.136.141.100] has joined #openttd 07:14:31 *** day_ [~day@CPE-60-226-8-38.wrcz1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:21:43 *** day [~day@CPE-60-226-8-38.wrcz1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:03:11 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@ppp118-209-0-239.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd 08:07:23 *** Flygon [~Flygon@ppp118-209-0-239.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:09:50 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes] 08:10:08 *** efess [~Efess@c-24-61-64-170.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:24:00 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483bd7.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 08:47:18 *** Clockworker__ [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has joined #openttd 08:54:47 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:04:27 <dihedral> hey hey 09:16:34 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:16:37 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:21:10 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:23:02 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:02:07 *** Kyle [~oftc-webi@121-75-250-243.dyn.vf.net.nz] has joined #openttd 10:02:40 <Kyle> Hey guys need a hand setting up my dedicated server 10:02:41 *** Kyle is now known as Guest2292 10:03:09 <Guest2292> Im using ubuntu, no gui, and ive got the server up and running but its at version 1.3.0 10:03:14 <Guest2292> How do I update it to 1.5.3? 10:05:31 *** efess [~Efess@c-24-61-64-170.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 10:06:20 <Guest2292> Anyone? 10:09:04 <planetmaker> Guest2292, download openttd 1.5.3 from our website and start the server from that binary? 10:09:18 <planetmaker> if your ubuntu repository does not offer a newer OpenTTD, that's the way to go 10:09:26 <Guest2292> Using w3m? I have no desktop environment etc 10:09:59 <planetmaker> wget the proper archive on the server and unpack it. 10:10:23 <planetmaker> wget https://binaries.openttd.org/releases/1.5.3/openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64.tar.gz 10:10:38 <planetmaker> gunzip openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64.tar.gz 10:11:07 <peter1139> why not the .deb? 10:11:27 <Guest2292> Should I unisiall any openttd files before hand? 10:11:34 <planetmaker> cd openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64 10:11:39 <Guest2292> ubuntu 14.04 LTS is what im running 10:11:39 <planetmaker> ./openttd -D 10:11:54 <planetmaker> peter1139, because I don't know his ubuntu version, thus better going for the generic one 10:12:04 <peter1139> grr 10:12:06 *** peter1139 is now known as peter1138 10:12:34 <planetmaker> use the deb we provide for your version, if you like 10:12:55 <planetmaker> and yes, you can first install the openttd version you have. But if you follow the procedure I lined out, there's no need 10:13:22 <Guest2292> you are some godlike tech support planetmaker 10:13:23 <Guest2292> thank you 10:14:59 <Guest2292> is the the cfg file still in .openttd 10:15:14 <planetmaker> yes. Nothing in .openttd will be removed 10:15:19 <Guest2292> epic, working 10:15:22 <Guest2292> thank you bro 10:15:35 <planetmaker> on ubuntu 14.04 you indeed can de-install your existing and install our deb. But ... doesn't matter either way 10:16:04 <Guest2292> my issue was i ran apt-get install openttd 10:16:09 <Guest2292> which got me the older version 10:16:43 <peter1138> using the generic ones is good for when you want to run nightlies too 10:16:59 <peter1138> not that there's much activity there atm :( 10:17:14 <planetmaker> we don't even have 1.6.0-betas 10:17:22 <planetmaker> which we "should" since christmas 10:18:12 <Guest2292> cheers for the help guys 10:18:13 <Guest2292> cya 10:18:14 *** Guest2292 [~oftc-webi@121-75-250-243.dyn.vf.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:48:49 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:49:16 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:54:45 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 11:09:48 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:17:10 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:21:45 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host38-235-dynamic.24-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 11:22:32 <Wolf01> hi hi 11:23:35 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 11:38:14 <peter1138> me o'clock 11:39:26 <Wolf01> uh, it's late, about lunch time 11:54:55 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:56:06 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@x4d0868cd.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Helau!] 12:09:55 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:10:09 <Ketsuban> I compared building a stretch of rail to building a stretch of planning rail from Useless Tracks and then upgrading it, and it came out £15 more expensive. 12:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, clearing the land costs the same, and removing the planning track gives you slightly less money than building it costs 12:16:39 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:23:47 *** mescalito_ [~mescalito@251-183-191-90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: mescalito_] 12:24:09 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure you didn't actually measure different clear land values, like when there's a tree or uneven ground 12:35:31 <argoneus> good morning train friends 12:35:37 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause how are you doing on this fine thursday 12:35:40 <argoneus> have you had a cup of teay et 12:35:41 <argoneus> yet* 12:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't had a cup of tea in like 10 years 12:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> probably 12:36:17 <argoneus> wow 12:36:19 <argoneus> coffee person? 12:36:21 <Wolf01> he's German, they have a cup of cappuccino before lunch, not tea 12:36:42 <argoneus> tea is fantastic 12:36:45 <argoneus> for one it has taste 12:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i also don't drink coffee 12:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and also, you should never ask a german how he's feeling unless you're prepared to listen to every single of his ailments 12:39:01 <Wolf01> beer 12:42:38 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:45:08 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause my body is ready 12:45:12 <argoneus> tell me all about your feelings 12:46:05 <Wolf01> 1d20... fumble 12:48:21 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 12:56:16 *** ektor [~ektor@200-44-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #openttd 13:00:48 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:10:02 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:16:44 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:20:58 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:10:09 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:16:55 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:37:16 <Ketsuban> Eddi|zuHause: good point, I forgot I'd set trees to invisible. Tried again with no trees, just plain grass - £30 more expensive to upgrade planning rail. 14:45:24 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:50:33 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 14:54:56 <supermop__> Ketsuban: with planning track you have to hire a surveyor, to go stake it out, so 30 quid for his time sounds like a good deal 14:57:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6A64C.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 15:10:16 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:17:01 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:17:07 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:53 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 15:22:47 <V453000> I would question his knowledge and thus the quality of the project though :P 15:23:11 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:27:35 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 15:28:25 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has joined #openttd 15:28:32 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-179.cbu.edu] has joined #openttd 15:32:10 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 15:32:13 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 15:35:38 *** Clockworker__ [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:10:23 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:14:11 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:19d2:b186:b64c:f06f] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:17:09 *** oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:21:27 *** ektor [~ektor@200-44-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:24:52 *** Raish0 [~oftc-webi@ip-86-49-65-228.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:45:10 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 16:46:45 <Alberth> hi hi 16:50:36 *** Clockworker [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has joined #openttd 16:50:41 <V453000> yo 16:55:23 *** _johannes [~johannes@port-92-203-189-178.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:57:08 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:03:27 <supermop__> gah i just scheduled 5 different lines to share a terminus at 50 day spacing, so 10 days apart line to line, but accidentally scheduled 3 of the lines at 40 day spacing instead of 50 17:03:41 <supermop__> going to be a mess to untangle 17:04:14 <Alberth> \o/ untangling messes is fun 17:05:17 <supermop__> most of what i do in a game lately is meticulously scheduling a complex timetable to work several lines together, then spend twice as long fixing it, because i messed up some part 17:06:23 <Alberth> :) 17:06:32 <supermop__> one of the lines shares with a different main trunk with it's own complex schedule 17:08:44 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest2332 17:08:45 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-179.cbu.edu] has joined #openttd 17:09:35 *** Guest2332 [~sim-al2@dns25-179.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:13:45 *** Raish0 [~oftc-webi@ip-86-49-65-228.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i barely managed to interleave my two maglev lines 17:17:16 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:18:23 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: it seems the interleaving is the only part of the game i play for anymore 17:23:11 <supermop__> so basically i am only doing the most tedious frustrating work part 17:30:27 <Alberth> somewhere, you have to get something out of it, or you would not do it 17:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: sometimes the brain has strange feedback loops 17:34:12 <Alberth> :) 17:35:09 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 17:43:35 *** srhnsn [~srhnsn@p2003006A6C1EC20029094B738FD5C7F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 17:44:11 <supermop__> too bad i don't get paid for it 17:59:18 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:59:21 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 18:06:45 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-179.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:10:12 <V453000> hm, when I was picking names for NUTS trains it was simple when there is like 120 of them 18:10:18 <V453000> but when I have to pick one, it ain't so easy XD 18:13:01 <_johannes> anyone German here? I'f I'll buy a ticket and don't get a train at a station because the previous train was late, can I continue my travel with a higher class train, like with ICE instead of RE? 18:14:23 *** Progman [~progman@p57A186F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 18:14:35 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x4d01966c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 18:15:46 <_johannes> ah ok, it looks like you can do that: http://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/fahrgastrechte/faq_fahrgastrechte.shtml 18:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: you have to get some conductor (or the service point) to document the lateness 18:20:33 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: it might be that I won't have time to do that 18:20:51 <_johannes> not even sure if that special station has a service point open at that time... 18:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> is there no conductor in the train you are in? 18:21:15 <Alberth> V: put them all in the high hat, and draw one 18:21:56 <_johannes> ah, maybe ... should be on an ICE... 18:22:05 <V453000> Alberth: that is now how it works :P 18:29:16 <V453000> got it :> 18:29:50 <Alberth> :) 18:31:02 <V453000> song names ftw :D 18:31:34 <frosch123> _johannes: if you have no confirmation you may have to buy an upgrade ticket from the conductor in the ice, and you can only after your travel request a refund from a service desk 18:33:03 <_johannes> frosch123: if the train starts getting late right before that station (or if it's not sure whether the other train will wait), I won't have time to see the conductor :-/ 18:33:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if your travel already includes an ICE, it is valid for the whole journey 18:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you only need the lateness confirmation to lift the train binding 18:33:36 <_johannes> hmm or I just stay on exactly that train :D 18:34:18 <_johannes> yeah... the conductors on the other trains would not know of the lateness... 18:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the ICE fee is fixed, not depending on the distance travelled 18:34:56 <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: what do you mean? travelling from Berlin to Stuttgart is probably more expensive than from Frankfurt? 18:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is a distance price no matter what train you are using, and an ICE price on top of that 18:36:13 <frosch123> _johannes: it costs the same if you take ice from berlin to stuttgart, or if you take a RB from berlin to ulm and the ice only from ulm to stuttgart 18:36:14 <_johannes> ah you mean that additional price is constant? 18:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 18:36:40 <_johannes> ah ok! interesting... 18:36:44 <frosch123> it's your responsibility to use as much as ice as possible, once you have purchased ice at all 18:36:50 <_johannes> :D 18:37:26 <_johannes> though for the "Sparpreis", the more-ice routes look more expensive... probably because they are used by more people... 18:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cheap prices usually go very quickly on busy routes 18:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> also useful to know about the "Sparpreis": the train binding only applies to IC and ICE trains, you can take any RE or RB trains along that route 18:43:30 <supermop__> V453000: you should make the names random 18:43:31 <_johannes> does the Sparpreis even get more expensive if I use a more busy RE? 18:43:58 <V453000> isn't naming them by audio records random enough for a train? 18:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that matters 18:45:02 <supermop__> too bad you can't randomize the name like you can with intro date 18:45:06 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~farci@i59F6B328.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 18:45:27 *** stardude [~oftc-webi@pool-71-127-205-185.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 18:45:40 <stardude> hey guys i've got a question regarding a station not accepting an item 18:45:44 <V453000> no reason to either tbh :) would only cause confusion for no gain 18:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27506 trunk/src/lang/french.txt (2016-02-04 19:45:36 +0100 ) 18:45:46 <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints: 18:45:47 <DorpsGek> french: 13 changes by OliTTD 18:45:48 <stardude> oh lol nvm 18:45:51 <stardude> just figured it out 18:47:14 <supermop__> confusion would be the point 18:49:08 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 18:49:14 <andythenorth> o/ 18:49:18 <stardude> yeah the station just doesn't accept those goods 18:49:20 <stardude> SILLY ME 18:50:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6A64C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:50:51 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 18:51:59 <V453000> sup andy 18:52:06 <V453000> I am modelling the most badass train ever seen 18:52:09 <V453000> :D 18:52:20 <V453000> also, dual heading has been trashed 18:52:26 <andythenorth> wise 18:54:09 <andythenorth> all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds 18:54:29 *** Pulec [~pulec@2a01:4f8:110:1463:127::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:52 *** Pulec [~pulec@2a01:4f8:110:1463:127::2] has joined #openttd 19:02:20 <V453000> xd 19:05:10 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-179.cbu.edu] has joined #openttd 19:10:32 <_johannes> hmm if you use the Sparpreis and have one part bought with an RE, can you use REs on other routes for that part? 19:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, usually "routes" are not point-to-point but "anything within this area" 19:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what specific areas there are, you should ask a more knowledgable person 19:12:51 <frosch123> they are printed on the ticket 19:13:03 <frosch123> from: to: via: 19:13:15 <frosch123> usually via lists multiple stations which refer to various possible routes 19:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but "via" is not actual stations to go through, but rather the boundaries of the area 19:20:43 <_johannes> ah ok... 19:29:34 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has joined #openttd 19:35:10 *** Clockworker [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:46:23 <andythenorth> silly old cat 19:54:37 <andythenorth> so why is 16GB âenoughâ? 19:54:49 <andythenorth> for years, every RAM threshold has quickly been breached 19:55:03 <andythenorth> but 16GB just hasnât, at all, for several years now 19:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you call "quick" 19:57:00 <andythenorth> first computer I owned in 1999 had 32MB 19:57:32 <andythenorth> thatâs 16.5 years ago 19:57:40 <andythenorth> Iâve had 16GB for at least 3 years, possibly 4 19:58:39 <frosch123> increase the number of vms 19:58:53 <andythenorth> so over 75% of my computer owning life, RAM increased by a factor of 256 19:59:02 <andythenorth> and for the other 25%, RAM increased by factor 0 19:59:19 <andythenorth> I only *have* 16GB to run multiple VMs 19:59:24 <andythenorth> otherwise 8GB is enough 19:59:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's the same for cpu speed :p 19:59:50 <andythenorth> so some fundamental of limit of general purpose computing behaviour has been hit 20:00:15 <frosch123> ssd is pretty much the only thing that is still growing exponentially 20:00:38 <andythenorth> battery life seems to grow, maybe linear, not sure 20:01:23 <andythenorth> maybe we hit the point where photo / video / audio filesizes donât grow through enhanced resolution 20:01:31 <andythenorth> and a person only has so many of them 20:01:46 * andythenorth should play OTTD 20:01:51 <andythenorth> instead of navel gazing 20:01:53 *** gelignite [~gelignite@x4db6ae60.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 20:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 32*2**((2015-1999)/1.5)/1024 20:02:00 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 50.796833663 20:02:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: i have half of my ram assigned to a ramdisk, which i use as target for compiling ottd 20:02:23 <frosch123> it speeds up compilation :p 20:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that can't be right 20:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 32*2**((2015-1999)/2)/1024 20:02:37 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 8 20:03:02 <andythenorth> yeah, I did my calculation wrong somehow 20:03:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so 32MB in 1999 is between 8 and 50GB today 20:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on what your moore's law scale factor is 20:03:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: RAM is that much faster than your SSD? o_O 20:03:58 <andythenorth> I should ramdisk Iron Horse :P 20:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: shouldn't cache take care of that? 20:04:53 <frosch123> with disk the best compilation time of ottd was with -j (cores + 1) 20:05:08 <frosch123> with ramdisk it was as fast with -j cores 20:05:30 <frosch123> the object files with debug symbols and stuff are quite huge 20:05:38 <frosch123> way bigger than the source code 20:05:50 <frosch123> also i have only an old ssd 20:05:55 <frosch123> and i use it only for /usr 20:06:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: I forget, did you have feedback on IAHC economy? 20:06:43 <andythenorth> o_O 20:07:29 <frosch123> i suggested to add bonusses for delivering multiple input cargos for more industry types 20:07:45 <andythenorth> so food processor? 20:07:48 <frosch123> specifically food proeccsing plant 20:07:55 <frosch123> yes, i still only played the food chain 20:08:00 <andythenorth> should I add MNSP there or not? 20:08:03 * andythenorth is on the fence 20:08:27 <frosch123> the thing is: there are two distinations for maize, and 3 for fruit 20:08:41 <frosch123> there should be a benefit in spreading them to multiple industry types 20:08:45 <frosch123> instead of dumping them into one 20:08:54 <andythenorth> I could remove fruit from the port 20:09:01 <andythenorth> there is room here to rethink things 20:09:05 <andythenorth> there are 2 cargo slots unused 20:09:13 <frosch123> currently "alcohol" and "food" are completely equivalent 20:09:14 <andythenorth> also I donât know if livestock adds much 20:09:30 <frosch123> both are produced from the same, and are delivered to the same 20:09:31 <andythenorth> yeah, alcohol has that problem in all economies 20:09:41 <andythenorth> anywhere people want to eat, they also want to drink 20:09:45 <andythenorth> and vice versa :P 20:09:48 <frosch123> so, there should be a benefit in producing both 20:09:58 <andythenorth> GS tells you to do it? o_O 20:10:02 <andythenorth> oh, the non-GS case :P 20:10:11 <Rubidium> make a Scandinavian economy 20:10:22 <andythenorth> I did ::P 20:10:45 <andythenorth> removed Alcohol though 20:10:49 <andythenorth> unrealisms? 20:10:57 <Rubidium> no alcohol to supermarket but to state owned shop 20:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> no alcohol in supermarket? which barbaric country is that? 20:12:20 * andythenorth considers removing livestock and stockyard 20:12:25 <andythenorth> and sending MNSP to food processor 20:12:40 <andythenorth> then adding some other export cargo 20:12:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: variety of cargos is good 20:12:47 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: oh, apparantly I lied... < 3.5% is allowed in the supermarket (in Sweden) 20:12:58 <frosch123> but they should also be used 20:13:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: I would like more that is ânot seen lots of places before' 20:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: wtf kind of beer has <3.5%? 20:13:23 * andythenorth still considering Rare Minerals or something 20:13:27 <andythenorth> but quantities are low 20:13:36 <Rubidium> (or 4.75% in Norway or 4.7% in Finland) 20:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that still seems to exclude most useful stuffs 20:14:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: better go for visual diversity :p 20:14:29 <frosch123> piles of dirt do not look any different 20:14:42 <frosch123> organic stuff is a lot more colourful 20:14:54 <andythenorth> so livestock might be worth keeping 20:15:00 <andythenorth> unique wagons, unique station tiles 20:15:18 <andythenorth> dunno, I havenât used it in my test game, but thatâs due to Busy Bee 20:15:19 <frosch123> i would rahter like to see tomatoes and bananas :p than phosphate and manganese 20:15:29 <andythenorth> I could split up fruit 20:15:36 <andythenorth> I wouldnât mind that 20:15:49 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Nigeria#Agricultural_products 20:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but most fruit would go to the same destination? 20:15:58 <andythenorth> ^ roughly my guide, not sticking to it rigidly 20:16:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: thatâs a problem yes 20:16:03 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so do the minerals 20:16:07 <frosch123> all to bulk terminal 20:16:08 <andythenorth> minerals -> port 20:16:14 <andythenorth> I think a banana train would be nice 20:16:19 <andythenorth> I considered rice also 20:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> should put rice in an asian economy 20:16:54 <andythenorth> but rice seems more east asian 20:16:58 <andythenorth> yes, I wanted to save it 20:17:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: add a youth hostel in addition the the hotel :p 20:17:05 <andythenorth> economies are pointless if they overlap too much 20:17:14 <andythenorth> truck drivers bunkhouse 20:17:18 <frosch123> accepts alcohol, energy drinks and junk food 20:19:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have "salt" in some economy? 20:19:38 <frosch123> there are at least three different ways to harvest salt 20:20:01 <andythenorth> I want to do salt 20:20:08 <andythenorth> maybe australian economy, or so 20:20:25 <andythenorth> I think the most useful cargos are those that have interesting specialised vehicles 20:20:33 <andythenorth> at least for my definition of âuseful' 20:20:40 <frosch123> hmm, asian: rice, spices, china ware 20:21:00 <andythenorth> A -> B, C -> B, D -> B, all in open wagons, is boring 20:22:02 <frosch123> rare minerals, electronics :p 20:24:58 *** stardude [~oftc-webi@pool-71-127-205-185.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:27:46 <andythenorth> I can only think of sugarcane to add variety of wagons / trucks 20:28:27 <andythenorth> but eh I was going to use that elsewhere also 20:29:07 <andythenorth> so I keep livestock, and make food processor combine cargos, happy days 20:29:39 <frosch123> i think it is about big fruits vs small fruits 20:29:49 <frosch123> so hoppers vs "cages" 20:30:17 <andythenorth> how about I split fruit to âpalm productsâ and âbananasâ or such? 20:30:58 <frosch123> palm products sounds like edible oil 20:31:54 <andythenorth> hmm 20:32:05 <andythenorth> I intended it as the input to edible oil 20:32:08 <andythenorth> along with nuts 20:33:17 <andythenorth> yams? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(vegetable) o_O 20:33:54 <andythenorth> http://foto.com.ng/static2/preview2/stock-photo-a-truck-filled-with-tubers-of-yam-19389.jpg 20:35:39 <andythenorth> http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/15624521.jpg 20:36:04 *** _johannes [~johannes@port-92-203-189-178.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:39:09 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@189.30.44.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:49:57 <andythenorth> when did the windows version of OpenTTD get malware added? :o 20:50:16 <andythenorth> Users/andy/Library/Application Support/CrossOver/Bottles/OpenTTD/drive_c/Program Files/OpenTTD/uninstall.exe: Win.Adware.Agent-59032 FOUND 20:50:24 <Markk> It was a patch for 2 weeks ago 20:50:35 <frosch123> uninstal.exe :p 20:50:38 <Markk> Just for the lulz. 20:50:57 <frosch123> the only virus i ever found on one of my computers was inside an uninstall.exe, which i never ran 20:51:37 <Markk> :D 20:51:57 <Markk> I havn't had a virus, malware or spyware in over 10 years now. 20:52:54 <andythenorth> as far as you know 20:53:04 <andythenorth> you really have no idea :) 20:54:43 <Markk> I hate to use the computer of my matriarch, she clicks on ads, bad links in e-mails and install sheit she really shouldn't. 20:59:56 <glx> Markk: how many add-ons in IE ? 21:00:19 <Markk> Too many 21:00:31 <frosch123> toolbars on more than half of the screen? 21:00:35 <Markk> And some sheit to a startpage 21:00:56 <Markk> frosch123: Ye, something like that 21:01:00 <glx> 5 minutes to launch the browser 21:01:05 <Markk> Hah 21:01:13 <Markk> Only 5 minutes? 21:01:32 <andythenorth> thatâs the obvious stuff 21:01:40 <Markk> Took about 30-40 minutes to start the computer, start the browser and access google.com 21:02:05 <Markk> I had a field day with removing most of it. 21:02:50 <glx> some things install others on uninstall 21:03:15 <andythenorth> I love finding something called âroottools.conf' 21:03:27 <andythenorth> what could go wrong? 21:03:41 <glx> and the important point is to disconnect internet before trying to clean stuff 21:04:43 <andythenorth> eh well 21:06:08 <andythenorth> also to never connect the computer to any network 21:06:13 <andythenorth> nor use any removable storage 21:06:37 <andythenorth> you also need to disable the microphone, video camera, and keyboard 21:06:52 <frosch123> only access internet from within a vm, which you reset everyday :p 21:07:08 <andythenorth> you canât be sure the VM doesnât have a keystroke logger 21:07:23 <andythenorth> or that your motherboard doesnât have firmware which sends your secrets somewhere 21:08:02 <andythenorth> every key on your keyboard has a distinct sound, so with a good mic, your banking passwords are easy to learn 21:08:23 <frosch123> all my passwords sound the same 21:08:29 <frosch123> ctrl+c/v 21:08:47 <andythenorth> your clipboard is logged though, eh 21:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there was an incident a few years ago where a school gave out laptops, and then monitored the students through the builtin webcam 21:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that didn't go over well :p 21:09:14 <frosch123> yeah, i recall that one :p 21:09:27 <Markk> eswst555es55 <- most of my keystrokes 21:09:29 <andythenorth> I love stuff like this http://ikeymonitor.com 21:09:32 <Markk> (Playing OTTD) 21:09:48 <andythenorth> itâs astounding when people not only install malware, but pay for the privilege 21:09:53 *** mescalito [~mescalito@251-183-191-90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #openttd 21:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: what? the most common key is F1, followed by a and r 21:10:47 <andythenorth> for just 0 / year, you can leak all the information from your business / family to criminals 21:11:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: "Was looking for password logger and found it here. Logging passwords and keystrokes in my native language. Works better than other software" <- it has awesome reviews 21:11:08 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I never use F1 in OTTD? 21:11:13 <andythenorth> they are awesome 21:11:23 <andythenorth> Iâm not saying that one *is* run by criminals 21:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: you must be playing multiplayer :p 21:11:29 <andythenorth> for the record 21:11:32 <Markk> 5 is for railroad, s is for signals. 21:11:36 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Nope, SP. 21:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> a is for railroad :p 21:12:03 <andythenorth> also the âmalware removal toolsâ that are blatantly malware :P 21:12:09 <andythenorth> for which users pay 21:12:17 <Markk> No, 1-5 is the different types of railroads. 21:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. a is the only type you need 21:12:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and as a bonus it opens the rail toolbar if it's not already open 21:12:40 <Markk> 1-4 is the fixed-direction and 5 is the flexible one. 21:12:48 <Markk> I always have it opened 21:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not if you build other types of vehicles 21:13:13 <frosch123> ottd still has no hotkeys to pick directions for depots and stuff 21:13:24 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I usually don't. 21:13:31 <andythenorth> should ottd have those hotkeys? 21:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i build trams a lot 21:13:46 <andythenorth> I miss them sometimes, but otoh, I donât remember shortcuts very well :P 21:13:50 <frosch123> yes, they are the only buttons i regualry need to press by mouse 21:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> also, a is right next to s 21:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is way over there 21:14:14 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: And I always make the railroad toolbar sticky, so it won't close when I hit delete to close the other windows. 21:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i would never reliably hit 5 21:14:24 <andythenorth> I have to navigate station building UI with mouse 21:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: problem is that stickyness goes away if you switch construction types 21:14:49 <Markk> Ye? 21:14:57 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: play the game somewhen 21:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well... :p 21:15:09 <frosch123> that has not been an issue for 2 years 21:15:13 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I mostly use railroads, so that's not an isse. 21:15:35 <frosch123> stickyness can be saved on disk 21:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i still stick with a being better than 5 21:15:46 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I've used 5 for railraods for almost 11 years now, I'm not about to change it now. 21:16:00 * andythenorth wonders how reliable Apple network traffic inspector is 21:16:09 <andythenorth> and how easily malware could hide from it 21:16:18 <andythenorth> should probably ask on some mac channel eh? :P 21:16:20 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Then you should use a, I respect your choise. 21:16:20 <frosch123> anyway, the most imoprtant change i did to the default hotkeys was mapping "d" to depot, instead of useless dynamite 21:16:35 <andythenorth> âfanbois say OS X is immune to virusesâ 21:16:37 <andythenorth> yeah 21:16:39 <andythenorth> right 21:16:50 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: But I like 5 and I'm gonna stick to it. 21:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause> RELIGOUS WAR!!! 21:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is the work of the devil! 21:17:25 <andythenorth> how easy is to completely hide a process on *nix systems? 21:17:33 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I'm a Satanist. 21:17:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: i like the weeks when there are three independent headlines about secuirity issues with ios, android and winphone 21:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is the number of corners of a pentagram 21:18:06 <Markk> Yep 21:18:13 <Markk> It's a beautiful sign. 21:18:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: easy, give it a cryptic name like "flush-537" 21:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: is there a week without that? 21:18:39 <Markk> I also have a necklace with a downwards-pointing crucifix. 21:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: on windows you hide processes by naming them "svchost" 21:19:02 <andythenorth> it would probably be much easier to just hide the process in some other app 21:19:06 <andythenorth> like something in the ports tree 21:19:14 <andythenorth> ports tree review standards are impeccable, right? 21:19:16 <andythenorth> :P 21:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have no clue what ports tree is 21:19:50 <andythenorth> your distro must have some equivalent thing with different name 21:19:59 <andythenorth> you probably run yum update or whatever for it 21:20:18 <andythenorth> ports is the BSD name 21:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really an explanation 21:20:38 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just run your malware at UEFI level and it'll be equally hidden from Windows, DOS, OS X, Unix, Linux, ... 21:20:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause itâs the package manager, where you literally bring in hundreds or thousands of untrusted packages, probably with sudo 21:21:20 <andythenorth> Rubidium: yeah, but thereâ s no mileage losing sleep over that. Not interesting 21:21:34 <andythenorth> itâs like proposing that all the chips made in china leak secrets to chinese government 21:21:42 <andythenorth> or that NSA have trivially cracked SSL 21:21:45 <frosch123> i liked the story about the thing that spread to routers, and cleaned them from other malware 21:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if your malware escalated this far, you have a huge problem... 21:22:13 <frosch123> esp. since my router became quite unstable over the years, but recently became better again :p 21:22:36 <andythenorth> ha 21:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's industry standard that malware first fixes the security holes, to prevent other people from getting in as well and disturbing it 21:23:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: andy is brittish, he only communicates with key pairs, which the government handed to him 21:23:34 * andythenorth couldnât comment 21:23:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you think thereâs no malware in any packages? o_O 21:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there were plenty of cases of malicious software for phones that distributed through the official app stores 21:25:23 <andythenorth> yes, thatâs an obvious attack vector 21:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but the more obscure your distribution gets, the less likely is that anyone actually tries that 21:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause> unless they are specifically targeting you. 21:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also where the "there are no viruses for mac" mindset comes from. when macos was actually "obscure" 21:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but it has definitely lost that state 21:30:24 * andythenorth wonders 21:30:39 <andythenorth> whenever I read a âsecurity alert: how to protect your phone / mac / blahâ 21:30:48 <andythenorth> and it recommends downloading a third party tool 21:30:59 <andythenorth> there is a little alarm sound in my head 21:31:02 <andythenorth> tinfoil hat? 21:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that alarm is probably correct :p 21:31:38 <andythenorth> I might have to start running everything in a VM 21:31:54 <andythenorth> single-occ per application / service 21:32:01 <andythenorth> thatâs going to work brilliantly 21:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> don't phones already do that? 21:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a pretty good approach, actually. just you make it more problematic to share data between processes 21:34:26 <frosch123> what data to share? 21:34:31 <frosch123> all knowledge is on wikipedia 21:36:08 <andythenorth> I wouldnât be able to play openttd :P 21:36:15 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-179.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> things like "i wrote this text in $editor, now send it as e-mail" 21:36:31 <andythenorth> nah canât do that 21:36:39 <andythenorth> isolated VM, no network access 21:36:54 <andythenorth> and youâre not allowed to access to any volumes outside the VM 21:37:00 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 21:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. 21:37:26 <andythenorth> but you canât use any VMs anyway 21:37:34 <andythenorth> because you donât know if you can trust the hypervisor 21:37:46 <andythenorth> and even if you thought you can trust the hypervisor, you canât trust the host 21:38:02 <andythenorth> and even if you trust the host, you canât trust any network at all 21:38:08 <andythenorth> nor any media 21:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: now you're in "you can't trust science anyway, so my religion is as valid as yours" territory 21:38:21 <Wolf01> what if you can't trust the one between the keyboard and the chair? 21:38:28 <andythenorth> you canât do that either 21:38:36 <andythenorth> you have to remove all admin permissions from them at least 21:39:09 * andythenorth has been reading infosec advice / requirements from governments around the world 21:39:16 <andythenorth> some is very very good 21:39:19 <andythenorth> some is very very odd 21:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the thing is, you need SOMETHING to trust. it will never be 100%, but "close enough". to build your foundation 21:40:37 <andythenorth> you have to build your own computer 21:40:39 <andythenorth> from sand 21:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you're in with the flat-earthers and creationists and lizard-conspiracies 21:40:48 <frosch123> yeah, something like the axiom of choice 21:40:53 <andythenorth> and examine all the sand for nano-level manipulation 21:41:48 <andythenorth> although the govt advice âmost cyber attacks on businesses are caused by not setting passwordsâ is quite genuinely useful 21:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you have no device for that observation that you can trust 21:42:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and even if you didâŠevil demon hypothesis 21:42:20 *** skybon [~user@176.77.7.124] has joined #openttd 21:42:32 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon 21:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that reminds me of when elementary logic came down to the question "is there an = function?" 21:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> because the basic logic axioms cannot create such a function. only a function that behaves like =, but cannot distinguish certain models 21:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> without such an = function, you cannot detect the presence of such an evil demon 21:51:00 *** srhnsn [~srhnsn@p2003006A6C1EC20029094B738FD5C7F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: srhnsn] 21:51:12 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@89.136.141.100] has quit [] 21:54:33 <andythenorth> funny old epistemology 21:54:45 <andythenorth> you just canât count on anything eh? 21:54:59 <andythenorth> and yet 21:55:03 <andythenorth> the sun will also rise 21:56:07 <andythenorth> none of this gets pixels drawn :D 21:56:28 <frosch123> add some futuristic invisible engines 21:56:52 <andythenorth> how will I know theyâre there? 21:59:24 <frosch123> just reverse the burden of proof 21:59:37 <frosch123> bug reporters have to prove that they are not there 22:01:14 <frosch123> also, ships cannot drive empty, they always have to transport some jetsam 22:01:24 <frosch123> so, invisible ships are basically only cargo graphics 22:02:17 <frosch123> btw. you should also add some cats throughout your graphics 22:02:25 <frosch123> hide a cat in every firs industry 22:03:24 <frosch123> my nephew had a picture book about a car workshop 22:04:00 <frosch123> on every page some worker was just holding a coffee mug and was just watching 22:04:35 <frosch123> though they took turns :) 22:05:12 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 22:05:15 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 22:07:23 <andythenorth> the cat thing :) 22:07:26 <andythenorth> like whereâs wally 22:07:35 <andythenorth> or the artist who put a mouse in every painting 22:07:48 <andythenorth> or a series of books when I was a child, find the yellow duck on every page 22:08:02 <andythenorth> mostly in german (they were books to learn keywords) 22:08:57 <frosch123> huh? what do brittish children learn from german books? 22:09:46 <andythenorth> german mostly :P 22:10:19 <frosch123> well, when i learned foreign languages i did no longer search for yellow ducks :) 22:10:33 <M-E> frosch123: nazism! :P 22:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i somehow doubt the effectiveness of that 22:11:28 *** Progman [~progman@p57A186F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:52 <andythenorth> me too :) 22:12:03 <andythenorth> my german is not good 22:12:06 <frosch123> my sister-in-law and brother-in-law-in-law-in-law are english and read some english books to my nephews. from that i know that the language is of little importance 22:12:10 <andythenorth> canât even remember how to say schlect 22:12:14 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:12:14 <frosch123> as long as you read something to them :p 22:12:23 * andythenorth also must go to sleep 22:12:26 <andythenorth> bye 22:12:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:13:04 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: children books are useful. things like the summoning dark cannot handle them 22:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence does not parse 22:15:27 *** wlhlm [~wlhlm@wilhelm.re] has joined #openttd 22:20:04 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-108-17-112-179.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 22:21:01 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-108-17-112-179.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:21:03 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@50-37-83-152.mscw.id.frontiernet.net] has joined #openttd 22:37:03 *** gelignite [~gelignite@x4db6ae60.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/1kso8Ta] 22:59:24 *** JezK [~jez@14-203-248-221.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 23:03:10 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: maybe sentences containing the term "the summoning dark" are better left unparsed 23:06:28 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x4d01966c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 23:12:50 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:18:12 <Wolf01> 'night 23:18:14 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:19:49 *** skybon_ [~user@176.77.7.124] has joined #openttd 23:20:01 *** skybon [~user@176.77.7.124] has quit [Quit: skybon] 23:22:22 *** JezK [~jez@14-203-248-221.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:22 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 23:51:01 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit []