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09:02:08 <Flygon> Even worse 09:02:11 <Flygon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50WmeIQ638c It's Tim Follin 09:09:08 <Wolf01> you seem to be a strange breed of pokemon... a flygon with a breloom made a linoone shaped pikachu? 09:10:43 <Flygon> Well 09:10:48 <Flygon> The tl;dr is 09:10:58 <Flygon> I've had this name for 13 years 09:11:06 <Flygon> And 'flygon' was already taken on YouTub 09:11:09 <Flygon> So I needed a placeholder <_> 09:11:29 <Wolf01> why not "TheMightyFlygon"? 09:12:52 <Wolf01> btw, nice job with that song 09:13:28 <Flygon> Eh, I just followed instructions 09:13:43 <Flygon> The C64 tunes KapteinKUK uploaded worked better 09:13:45 <Wolf01> what software did you use? 09:13:53 <Flygon> "TheMightyFlygon" sounds like an autistic dude :P 09:14:09 <Flygon> 'SidWiz' 09:14:26 <Flygon> Needs to be run in a C# dev environment because... derp 09:14:39 <Flygon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4vfo6JJ9Cg Instructions are in this vid's comments 09:16:47 <Flygon> It's... clunky 09:18:34 <Flygon> And incredibly CPU intense 09:18:46 <Wolf01> the part I don't get is how to record each channel separately 09:19:57 <Flygon> It's in my description xP 09:20:02 <Flygon> What do you plan to record from/ 09:20:06 <Flygon> from?* 09:20:09 <Flygon> What console? 09:21:12 <Wolf01> nah, I won't do that, at most I'll open a .mid file and record the channels from there :P 09:21:56 <Wolf01> about 20 years ago I played a lot with midi files (I have a midi keyboard too) 09:22:05 <Flygon> Hmm 09:22:13 <Flygon> Uhm, not sure how to help there 09:22:21 <Flygon> Can't be too hard to export one channel at a time to a .wav, tho O_o 09:22:28 <Flygon> Jesus, 20 years ago... 09:22:40 <Flygon> 20 years ago, I couldn't even write 09:22:52 <Wolf01> :D 09:24:10 <Wolf01> just fyi, I played the first gen of pokemon when I was already in middle school 09:24:26 <Flygon> Middle School doesn't exist here :P 09:24:27 <Flygon> BUT 09:24:34 <Flygon> Pokemon taught me how to read better than any book 09:24:40 <Flygon> Fuk a anti-gamers :B 09:24:44 <Flygon> Also Shining Force 09:25:51 <Wolf01> I learnt a bit of french playing zelda: link's awakening... I purchased it and it was in french :( 09:26:01 <Flygon> lolwut 09:26:02 <Flygon> UK? 09:26:06 <Wolf01> Italy 09:26:09 <Flygon> Oh 09:26:10 <Flygon> Dang 09:26:17 <Flygon> Yeah, that makes sense too 09:27:44 <Wolf01> then I sold it to purchase the DX english version for gameboy color :P 09:27:54 * Flygon nod xP 09:28:38 <Wolf01> but stop going offtopic.. lets talk about factorio XD 09:30:41 <Flygon> Factorio? 09:30:50 <Flygon> atm, trying to calculate in my head how to stack 9 channels 09:31:15 <Flygon> 2 Square Wave, 1 Noise, 5 FM, 1 Sample 09:31:25 <Flygon> Thinking of doing 2 columns, 4 rows 09:31:40 <Flygon> With the Sample channel taking up two columns in the bottom fifth row 09:31:48 <Flygon> But I dunno how to C hastag 09:31:55 <Flygon> xPPPP 09:32:50 <Wolf01> I'm trying to develop a UWP feed reader... 09:37:41 <Flygon> UWP? 09:37:48 <Flygon> Sorry, my brain's gone a bit messy 09:37:55 <Wolf01> universal windows platform 09:39:15 <Flygon> Ooh 09:40:17 <Flygon> Alright 09:40:22 <Flygon> Here's hoping my source code mods work 09:54:35 <Flygon> 'An unhandled exception of type 'System.OutOfMemoryException' occurred in SidWiz.exe' 09:54:36 <Flygon> FUCK 09:56:49 <Wolf01> eh, let's talk about I'm not able to load ANY rss.xml because "invalid char: Line 1 at position 1" 09:57:13 *** dustinm` [~dustinm`@2607:5300:100:200::160d] has joined #openttd 09:57:14 <Flygon> I'm trying to figure out why it's crashing at just 800MB used 09:57:25 <Flygon> I have 4GB to spar 09:57:47 <Wolf01> maybe it's the app which can't handle more than 800MB? 09:58:16 <Flygon> This is where my lack of C# knowledge comes in 09:58:58 <Flygon> What's the 32-bit version of 'long'? 09:59:00 <Flygon> Er 09:59:01 <Flygon> 64-bit 10:00:14 <Flygon> Oh 10:00:16 <Flygon> Uhm 10:00:18 <Flygon> Okay, nvm 10:00:20 <Flygon> I fucked up 10:00:24 <Flygon> I'm a complete idiot 10:01:00 <Flygon> I can't seem to make the buffer longer 10:08:28 <Flygon> Fuuuck 10:08:32 <Flygon> Okay, so 10:08:35 <Flygon> I'm dumping 9 channels 10:08:39 <Flygon> In 5 separate sessions 10:21:11 *** dustinm` [~dustinm`@2607:5300:100:200::160d] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:27:00 *** dustinm` [~dustinm`@105.ip-167-114-152.net] has joined #openttd 10:29:42 *** frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:44:30 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 10:48:24 <Flygon> 2 10:48:25 <Flygon> ... 10:48:32 <Flygon> Why did I type 2 10:49:02 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 10:49:05 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 10:50:01 <andythenorth> o/ 10:51:08 <Alberth> hi hi 10:51:09 <frosch123> hoi 10:52:16 <andythenorth> ho frosch123 as well :) 10:52:23 <andythenorth> are you all finished early for Easter or something? 10:52:50 <Alberth> mostly I decided to take a day off today :) 10:53:03 <Alberth> tomorrow I am off already 10:53:15 <frosch123> mostly laundry 10:55:01 <Alberth> better than taxes :p 10:59:57 <frosch123> oh, i have to do them as well 11:03:26 * andythenorth did his taxes in December 11:04:25 * andythenorth might have learnt everything thatâs interesting to learn about newgrf 11:04:33 <andythenorth> but is C++ beyond me? 11:04:45 <andythenorth> I know my programming skills are limited :P 11:05:53 <Alberth> c++11 is pretty manageable 11:06:05 <Alberth> as long as you stay away from templates :p 11:06:15 <Alberth> but openttd isn't c++11 :p 11:06:15 <andythenorth> does that help me patch OpenTTD? o_O 11:06:59 <Alberth> openttd is closer to C + some classes 11:08:07 <Alberth> what do you aim to do? make another airport patch? :) 11:09:11 <andythenorth> Iâd sooner learn Haskell than that :) 11:09:26 * andythenorth wants to poke at unpowered tramways 11:09:31 <andythenorth> and by implication, powered roads 11:10:24 <Alberth> don't understand that implication, but sounds fine 11:11:03 <andythenorth> when choosing to build a road or tramline, âcatenaryâ would be a boolean toggle 11:11:46 <andythenorth> newgrf RVs and trams would require power, or not 11:13:40 <andythenorth> dunno if it means 1 bit per tile or 4 11:14:02 <andythenorth> I think it could be done in a way that doesnât block a future RoadTypes implementation 11:14:12 <andythenorth> which no-one is ever going to do, but still 11:15:14 *** roidal [~roidal@cm215-81.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 11:19:34 <andythenorth> urgh 11:19:38 <andythenorth> no this canât be done 11:20:09 <andythenorth> in MP, player could remove another playerâs catenary, rendering the route unpowered :( 11:23:25 <Alberth> good point 11:24:06 <andythenorth> unless the catenary is owned, but that is a lot of bits 11:24:38 <Alberth> doesn't really fit with shared road does it? 11:28:05 <frosch123> just add a separate transparency option for tram catenary 11:28:17 <frosch123> who cares whether there is catenary or not 11:28:24 <frosch123> i guess you just don't want to see it 11:29:10 <andythenorth> I was also interested in powered / unpowered 11:29:18 <andythenorth> I could make a newgrf that bins the catenary :) 11:30:55 <_dp_> hi! is there really no way to show GS popup(aka question) to just one client, not whole company? 11:31:19 * andythenorth has made roads with catenary 11:33:12 <Alberth> game doesn't have clients, only companies, afaik 11:34:41 <_dp_> btw, window title text centering is offset by close button it seems, looks off when whole popup text is centered (i.e. always :) 11:35:56 <_dp_> that sucks, coz I want to react to one player's action, don't want to confuse whole company :( 11:36:42 <andythenorth> modify a sign, which is monitored by an admin bot, which uses irc hooks to send them a message in chat 11:36:44 <andythenorth> no really :P 11:36:50 <andythenorth> perhaps not :) 11:37:08 <_dp_> I can send message in chat, no problem, but popup would be better 11:37:31 * andythenorth ventures into UI code, a place never been before 11:37:35 <_dp_> actually, standard red error window would be perfect) 11:37:45 <Alberth> how does one player action not affect the entire company? 11:38:08 <_dp_> he tries to build something that isn't allowed for example 11:38:36 <_dp_> I cancel his action and want to show popup, pretty much like ttd itself does 11:39:08 <_dp_> I mean, it doesn't show error to whole company when you try to destroy other's infrastructure, right? ;) 11:39:44 <Alberth> simply not allowing isn't enough? :o 11:40:37 <_dp_> needs some feedback at least 11:48:41 <_dp_> was even thinking of faking some invalid actions to get error popups but they're hard to get reliably 11:54:26 <Wolf01> meh, how I'm supposed to check the last updated time of a feed if it reports 01/01/1601? 11:57:56 <Alberth> ha, would be fun if that would contain actual news of that date :p 11:58:20 <Alberth> but if the date/time changes, who cares about the actual value? 12:00:22 <Wolf01> I wanted to save a rss.xml for offline usage and update it only when the connection is available and the online feed is updated 12:01:20 <Alberth> just check for change? or doesn't it change either? 12:01:32 <Wolf01> but I think it's too much and I'll let the app download every time the feed 12:01:50 <Alberth> that would work :) 12:01:52 <andythenorth> well 12:02:02 <andythenorth> I added a widget to road construction toolbar 12:02:17 <Alberth> \o/ ? 12:02:19 <andythenorth> I also triggered an assert when opening the tram toolbar :) 12:02:38 <Alberth> haha :) 12:03:22 <Wolf01> ok, now the big problem is to get the image from the summary and render it 12:03:23 <andythenorth> segfault 12:03:30 <Alberth> lots of magic going on in several windows :) 12:03:33 <Wolf01> because every feed can be different 12:04:02 <Wolf01> did you add it with a grf? 12:04:34 <andythenorth> nah 12:04:44 <Wolf01> oh, plain old c++ code 12:05:00 <Alberth> hacking in the belly of the beast :) 12:05:19 <Wolf01> I was figuring out how OTTD improved to be able to add stuff such gui buttons with a grf 12:05:27 <Wolf01> btw, lunch 12:05:30 <andythenorth> segfault seems cured by adding the widget to tram toolbar also 12:06:04 <Alberth> I don't know all those details :) 12:07:22 <andythenorth> hmm 12:07:45 <andythenorth> now if I _just_ can get the widget to cause a bit to be set or not 12:08:05 <andythenorth> DrawTramCatenary() will take care of the drawing, if fed the right bits 12:10:02 * andythenorth wavey hands 12:10:37 *** gelignite [~gelignite@f049235138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 12:10:42 <Alberth> in OnClick, catch clicking the button, and do something bit-ish 12:11:47 <andythenorth> sounds like UI coding :o 12:12:33 <Alberth> well, I think you have to make a command for it, so it can be synced in MP 12:12:48 <Alberth> or extend road building or so 12:13:58 <andythenorth> :) 12:15:28 <_dp_> haha, ran into that tram assert myself few months ago) 12:16:27 <argoneus> good morning train friends 12:16:47 <_dp_> https://bitbucket.org/citymania/cmclient/commits/da1ebb59cfe93a9fc8a6fced6ece33e46178dd7b 12:17:57 <andythenorth> around L650 in road_gui.cpp, DoCommandP(âŠ) 12:18:17 <andythenorth> seems to be where _catenary_button_clicked should be handled 12:18:57 <_dp_> yeah, my was segfaulting when pressing ctrl so probably a slightly different assert... 12:19:13 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.136.141.100] has joined #openttd 12:19:15 <_dp_> but it was caused by adding button either 12:19:42 * andythenorth doesnât understand the bit shifts 12:20:07 *** FR^2 [~frquadrat@2001:41d0:1:f924::1] has quit [Quit: quit] 12:20:48 <Flygon> But bit shifting is the raw juice of a multi-channel Z80 tracker :D 12:24:09 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 12:24:54 <_dp_> there are some handy functions in bitmath_func.hpp so you may get away without shifts) 12:25:13 *** FR^2 [~frquadrat@2001:41d0:1:f924::1] has joined #openttd 12:25:39 <andythenorth> there are existing shifts 12:25:45 *** FR^2 is now known as Guest8997 12:28:11 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:7524:9d5a:c516:999d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:43 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:58 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 12:32:20 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 12:38:28 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:c02d:960b:b2f:4335] has joined #openttd 12:41:03 <andythenorth> _one_way_button_clicked << 5 12:41:11 <andythenorth> is shifting 5 bits right? 12:41:37 <Wolf01> meh, SyndicationFeed is returning the value for the summary which is html as text and I can't do anything :E 12:41:39 <andythenorth> and this is ORing them? _place_road_flag | (_cur_roadtype << 3) | (_one_way_button_clicked << 5) 12:42:03 <andythenorth> so I might just add | (_catenary_button_clicked << 6) or such? 12:43:53 <Alberth> x << 5 is 5 bit shift right indeed 12:45:07 <Alberth> technically ORing maps all bits in position i onto each other, if at least one is 1, the result is 1, else 0 12:45:56 <Alberth> but likely here, each value bits set that no other value uses 12:46:13 <Alberth> *but likely here, each value has bits set that no other value uses 12:46:22 <andythenorth> thatâs my hope :) 12:46:30 <Alberth> you just merge several values into one integer 12:46:31 <andythenorth> I canât find if this is a byte or such 12:46:42 <andythenorth> nor where they are unpacked (yet) 12:47:01 <Alberth> _* are global variables 12:47:31 <Alberth> _one_way_button_clicked sounds like 0/1 12:49:20 <andythenorth> this looks promising 12:49:21 <andythenorth> DisallowedRoadDirections toggle_drd = Extract<DisallowedRoadDirections, 6, 2>(p1); 12:49:35 <Alberth> road_gui.cpp 12:49:35 <Alberth> 62:static RoadType _cur_roadtype; <-- it's an RoadType enum 12:50:24 <Alberth> which is 0/1 or invalid 12:50:39 <Alberth> the latter is probably shotdown somewhere before? 12:53:41 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 12:55:18 *** supermop [~supermop@static-71-249-209-97.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 12:58:03 <supermop> hi 12:59:39 *** ektor [~ektor@200-44-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:01:47 *** supermop [~supermop@static-71-249-209-97.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:14 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:14:24 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?] 13:18:21 *** ektor [~ektor@122-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has joined #openttd 13:21:25 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 13:30:56 *** ConductorCat [~Conductor@pool-173-67-246-148.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 13:34:57 *** Thasan [thasan@x206.ip4.netikka.fi] has left #openttd [(â¯Â°â¡Â°ïŒâ¯ïžµ â»ââ»] 13:41:54 <andythenorth> hmm 13:42:09 <andythenorth> lots of Extract<SomeBits 13:42:19 * andythenorth wonders how to use that 13:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that's usually for unpacking the parameters 13:49:59 * _dp_ finds shifts easier to use and understand than Some<Weird>(Templates) 13:50:17 <Eddi|zuHause> supposedly easier to read/debug than bitstuffing 14:03:10 *** supermop [~supermop@static-71-249-209-97.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 14:16:30 <andythenorth> this is impenetrable to me: DisallowedRoadDirections toggle_drd = Extract<DisallowedRoadDirections, 6, 2>(p1); 14:16:45 <andythenorth> although I should probably follow back p1 to find what it is :P 14:21:14 <Alberth> cmd_helper.h defines Extract, which eventually does GB(p1, 6, 2) 14:21:51 <Alberth> ie take bit 6 and 7 from p1 ((p1 >> 6) & 3) 14:26:09 <andythenorth> ho :) 14:26:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6A4C7.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 14:28:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: read the comments :p 14:28:56 <frosch123> the comments of each Cmd function specify the bit patterns 14:29:55 <andythenorth> ha ha 14:30:29 * andythenorth didnât scroll his âfindâ results window :) 14:36:19 <andythenorth> so I need to stuff a catenary bit in somehow 14:40:23 *** Klanticus [~quassel@179.234.180.205] has joined #openttd 14:40:27 <Wolf01> \o/ I was obliterated by a hundred of spitters and biters 14:41:04 * andythenorth canât find where CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD is defined 14:42:03 <frosch123> DEF_CMD(CmdBuildLongRoad,CMD_DEITY | CMD_NO_WATER | CMD_AUTO, CMDT_LANDSCAPE_CONSTRUCTION), // CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD 14:42:33 <andythenorth> how does a comment cause the name to be assigned? :o 14:42:49 <Alberth> command_type.h 14:42:49 <Alberth> 201:    CMD_BUILD_LONG_ROAD,              ///< build a complete road (not a "half" one) <-- that is the actual definition 14:43:06 <Alberth> what crappy text search tool do you use :) 14:43:17 <andythenorth> nah, I find them 14:43:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: the entries in _command_proc_table must have the same order as in the enum 14:43:21 <andythenorth> I just donât understand them 14:43:35 <andythenorth> I was looking for assignments, I didnât think about list positions 14:43:55 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 14:43:56 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 14:43:56 <Alberth> bu the entry by frosch123 is correct, each command exists once as function and once as enum value 14:44:25 <frosch123> its kind of ottd's coding style to put the enum in the comment, if the order is defined by it :) 14:44:41 <andythenorth> ta 14:44:47 <andythenorth> CmdBuildRoad is starting to look hopeful 14:45:01 <Alberth> +Long :) 14:45:03 <frosch123> i.e. basically you just need to know it :p 14:45:23 <Alberth> or ask here :p 14:45:25 <andythenorth> Long looks more confusing 14:46:09 <andythenorth> how many bits in @param p1 for CmdBuildRoad 14:46:18 <andythenorth> or are the parameter sizes declared somewhere? 14:47:05 <andythenorth> thatâs probably what uint32 is doing :P 14:47:07 <frosch123> CmdBuildLongRoad just calls CmdBuildRoad 14:47:33 <Alberth> uint32 means 32 bits :) 14:47:34 <supermop> sorry to nitpick andythenorth but chile and argentina are about as tropical as england is 14:47:45 <andythenorth> I know :) 14:47:50 <supermop> maybe south american basic is better? 14:47:53 <andythenorth> but desert eh? 14:48:05 <andythenorth> and pampas 14:48:05 <supermop> desert +/ tropic 14:48:10 <supermop> =/ 14:48:13 <andythenorth> I play with trees on invisible 14:48:17 <Alberth> andy just wanted England + desert :) 14:48:22 <andythenorth> and I patched my openttd 14:48:28 <andythenorth> so sub-tropic landscape isnât stupid 14:48:44 <andythenorth> if you people canât follow my settings, I canât help you :P 14:50:44 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:54:51 <andythenorth> so I can just dump more bits in? 14:54:59 <andythenorth> or rather, I can just consume more bits? 14:55:12 <frosch123> 0 to 31 are there 14:55:19 <frosch123> if they are not mentioned in the comments 14:55:25 <frosch123> there are expected to be available 14:55:40 <frosch123> *they 14:56:04 * andythenorth experiments 15:01:17 <argoneus> so what are you guys doing? 15:01:28 <argoneus> are you having this strange thing called "fun"? 15:02:35 <frosch123> no, noone got kicked in months 15:02:43 <andythenorth> still time today 15:05:39 <andythenorth> DisallowedRoadDirections is a bad example to copy, assuming I want a simple bool? 15:05:51 * andythenorth trying to add a HasCatenary bit and set it 15:14:00 <V453000> merkel akbar, yoloswag uwot m8 15:14:05 * V453000 waits 15:14:35 <argoneus> 9 / 1 1 15:14:42 * Wolf01 chokes 15:17:00 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:37:20 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:c02d:960b:b2f:4335] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:03 <andythenorth> _catenary_button_clicked << 7 15:41:11 <andythenorth> into parameter p1 15:41:18 <andythenorth> can then be read with HasBit(p1, 7) 15:41:19 <andythenorth> ? 15:41:26 <frosch123> yes 15:42:05 <frosch123> don't forget to forward it from CmdBuildLongRoad to CmdBuildRoad 15:43:51 <andythenorth> ach 15:43:54 <andythenorth> thatâs the problem 15:49:04 <Alberth> :) 15:51:08 <andythenorth> this is rocket science :P 15:51:30 <andythenorth> but eh 15:51:43 <andythenorth> I can now build road and tramway with or without catenary 15:51:56 <andythenorth> appearance is borked for roads, I can probably fix that 15:52:13 <andythenorth> and thereâs no âconvertâ function, but one-way roads has that 15:53:22 <Alberth> it's a start :) 15:53:41 <supermop> ooooooooh 15:54:04 <supermop> steam trams and trolley busses 15:54:06 <andythenorth> itâs probably a dead end tbh 15:54:36 <supermop> dead end, or cul-de-sac with OHLE? 15:54:39 <andythenorth> dead end 15:54:50 <andythenorth> this wonât be more than a novelty patch 15:54:52 <andythenorth> it uses a bit 15:55:10 <andythenorth> when the correct way to do it is using the RoadTypes spec to detect if the RoadType provides catenary or not 15:55:43 <frosch123> "the roadtypes spec" :) 15:56:53 <andythenorth> and there is the problem that we must be able to provide multiple types of catenary on same tile also 15:57:40 <andythenorth> because IRL trams and RVs use different systems 15:57:57 <andythenorth> ach, this is why I never try to patch stuff :( 15:58:02 * andythenorth -> shops 15:58:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 16:08:48 *** Arveen [~Arveen@ip-95-223-75-47.hsi16.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:30:30 *** ektor [~ektor@122-9-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:41:30 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@x4d08348b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:43:45 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 16:49:37 <andythenorth> but seriously 16:49:51 <andythenorth> the catenary is just some sticks and 1px wires in 1x zoom 16:50:18 <andythenorth> does it matter about different types? 16:50:30 <andythenorth> I guess 4x zoom needs the details 16:51:17 <frosch123> are there different types? 16:51:24 <Alberth> you're going to build a simulation? 16:51:44 <frosch123> it's pretty much one cable in 99.9% of cases 16:51:51 <frosch123> and then some random stuff to hold it in place 16:52:07 <Alberth> kind of poles, wire above or not, etc 16:52:13 <andythenorth> http://www.rhaworth.myby.co.uk/trtr/tramtrol.htm 16:53:01 <andythenorth> thing is, it just makes it boring eh? 16:53:03 <andythenorth> all this crap 16:53:16 <andythenorth> just demotivates working on patches / features 16:53:47 <Alberth> have a tramtype with optional catenary, and a road type with optional catenary? 16:54:13 <Alberth> or just the combination as one road type 16:54:19 <frosch123> make road and tram types dependent? 16:54:44 <frosch123> that is there are 256 roadtypes, some are road, some are tram, some are both 16:55:00 <Alberth> +1 for that 16:55:02 <frosch123> and a clever gui which allows selecting them in a better way than in a long list 16:55:27 <frosch123> it would mean that you cannot combine road and tram types from different grfs 16:55:30 <Alberth> if people want to have 3 tramtypes and 4 road types in that list, go ahead 16:55:36 <frosch123> but would that work ever anyway? 16:56:19 <andythenorth> ow 16:56:22 <andythenorth> to all of that 16:56:51 <andythenorth> I thought maybe I could just patch this as a simple visual feature 16:56:58 <andythenorth> then maybe have vehicles be powered / not powered 16:57:10 <andythenorth> using same mechanic as railtypes, but faked on the OTTD side 16:57:33 <andythenorth> then patch so that catenary / not catenary was actuall ROAD, ELRD, TRAM, ELTM 16:57:41 <andythenorth> then let someone else make RoadTypes :P 16:58:08 <andythenorth> with all the attendant need to redraw drive in road stops, and bridge and tunnel support, and fix crossings and all the other crap :) 16:58:08 <Alberth> what exactly is the problem with road types? 16:58:22 <frosch123> that noone knows what they shall do :) 16:58:24 <andythenorth> implementing it, or conceptually? 16:58:45 <frosch123> i am already pretty lost with railtypes 16:58:49 <andythenorth> conceptually (1) itâs barely useful (2) whenever itâs discussed, the arguments about spec drive away all motivation to work on it 16:59:14 <andythenorth> the only case I can see for more than one roadtype is an off-highway variant 16:59:24 <andythenorth> and that only to make routing hard in confined spaces 16:59:44 <andythenorth> all other cases (variable speed limits and such) are so boring itâs snooze inducing 16:59:54 <frosch123> exactly :) 17:00:05 <Alberth> fair enough :) 17:00:27 <frosch123> the only interesting thing about railtypes is the visuals 17:01:00 <Alberth> dirt roads versus normal roads versus high way is not visually interesting? 17:01:01 <andythenorth> I like using them to force some gameplay choices 17:01:13 <andythenorth> metro = high capacity per tile, no other vehicles on that route 17:01:17 <andythenorth> narrow gauge = cheap 17:01:25 <andythenorth> rail / elrail = most of your routes 17:01:51 <andythenorth> this however is *solely* a visual thing http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7715/tram_tracks_no_catenary.png 17:04:31 <andythenorth> once I figured out passing the bit through CmdBuildLongRoad it wasnât hard 17:04:46 <andythenorth> it needs station support, probably crossings, savegames etc 17:04:52 <andythenorth> it uses m1 bit 7 17:05:09 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:06:08 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19C59.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 17:07:12 <frosch123> Alberth: also, noone ever wrote anything down. it's all just chat ruminating stuff over and over :) 17:07:28 <andythenorth> I have copies of at least one spec 17:07:28 <Alberth> nothing new there :) 17:07:37 <andythenorth> I donât think itâs viable 17:07:41 <andythenorth> or interesting tbh 17:07:55 * andythenorth is just a bit grumpy 17:08:22 <andythenorth> I could probably make this work, but I expect it will be rejected because it consumes some of the bits needed for a theoretical implementation of roadtypes 17:08:22 <Alberth> it should be mostly visually oriented imho 17:08:52 <Alberth> tbh I would expect any future roadtypes handles catenary, right? 17:08:58 <andythenorth> probably 17:09:06 <andythenorth> so bits can be migrated? 17:09:17 <Alberth> yeah, I'd expect so 17:09:21 <andythenorth> if the bit is set, provide ELTM 17:09:24 <andythenorth> if not provide TRAM 17:09:25 <andythenorth> etc 17:09:35 <Alberth> no point in having several different bits for catenary 17:09:38 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:09:47 * andythenorth tries to make crossings and stops work 17:10:40 <Alberth> TRAM and ELTM already exist, or do you make those up? 17:14:00 <andythenorth> made up 17:14:23 <andythenorth> there is some rudimentary implementation of a RoadType class and labels 17:15:11 <andythenorth> but itâs not like railtypes 17:18:05 <andythenorth> crossings and roadstops work 17:18:11 <andythenorth> [for trams] 17:18:19 <andythenorth> drive-in roadstops I am not attempting :) 17:23:52 <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pkhj1fu6a/vedpv5/raw 17:24:04 <andythenorth> there are slapdash variable names etc there 17:24:09 <andythenorth> and the icon is one-way road :P 17:24:18 <andythenorth> I think a toolbar toggle is *not* the way to do it 17:25:03 <andythenorth> be better to extend the road construction menu: Road | Tramway | Electrified Tramway 17:28:12 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-157-231.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 17:34:08 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED07F22.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:42 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED07F22.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:36:44 <andythenorth> âconvertâ? 17:36:48 <supermop> electrified dirt road? 17:38:06 * andythenorth wonât be patching that 17:39:29 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19C59.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:33 * andythenorth wonders if HasCatenary or HasPower is better for the tile 17:41:49 <Alberth> power can exist in more forms, right? 17:42:09 <andythenorth> yes 17:42:14 <Alberth> while your bit only toggles the catenary 17:42:17 <andythenorth> whereas this is used for drawing 17:42:19 <sim-al2> Clearly we need third-rail roads 17:42:27 <sim-al2> *fourth-rail 17:42:45 <Alberth> ie "powered" also prevents monorail engine at normal rail 17:43:27 <Alberth> which makes powered more a "can drive here" 17:44:07 <andythenorth> hmm 17:44:19 <andythenorth> it was tunnels that triggered the question 17:45:04 <andythenorth> in trunk, tram tunnels appear to no draw any catenary 17:45:09 <andythenorth> not * 17:45:20 <Alberth> fun :) 17:45:29 <andythenorth> nah, my mistake 17:45:35 <andythenorth> itâs just very hard to see 17:46:06 <Alberth> we need rainbow coloured catenary 17:46:42 <andythenorth> that is achievable 17:46:49 <sim-al2> Ohhhhhh, that sounds fun 17:49:26 <Alberth> we can ask a few yetis to paint it 17:49:43 <andythenorth> tunnelbridge_cmd eh 17:49:57 <Alberth> sounds like the right one :) 17:50:26 <Alberth> wormhole_cmd would have been nicer :) 17:52:37 <sim-al2> Then we would need Stargate shaped tunnel portals :p 17:55:20 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:99c3:5c2:edb1:6498] has joined #openttd 17:55:28 <andythenorth> ha 17:55:32 <andythenorth> bridges arenât a tile :D 17:55:36 <sim-al2> And bridges that are shaped like 90's computer animated tubes, or maybe just wires 17:55:40 <andythenorth> HasCatenary(ti->tile) wonât work 17:56:12 <frosch123> DrawBridgeMiddle has for sure already access to the northern bridge tile 17:56:50 * andythenorth tries that 18:00:42 *** Guest8997 is now known as FR^2 18:02:24 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 18:02:27 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 18:03:04 <andythenorth> works 18:12:40 <andythenorth> hmm 18:13:05 <andythenorth> need to pass _catenary_button_clicked through PlaceRoadStop() and such 18:25:17 <andythenorth> this construction toolbar catenary toggle idea is a turkey 18:25:22 <andythenorth> be much better to split ROADTYPE_TRAM 18:26:31 <andythenorth> itâs only used 108 times :P 18:35:02 <andythenorth> well no actually 18:35:32 <andythenorth> bah, railtypes never will map to roadtypes 18:36:16 <andythenorth> because tram and road inescapably require drawing, vehicle movement, station choices 18:36:51 <andythenorth> ROADTYPE_TRAM and ROADTYPE_ROAD will always be needed as fundamental types 18:37:21 <andythenorth> #openttd, once again andythenorthâs internal monologue 18:40:03 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 18:48:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~farci@i59F6B2A0.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 18:50:37 <supermop> idk power, cable vault, stuff like that should just be painted on to the RoW 18:51:01 <supermop> build pavement, or rail, or one on top of the other 18:51:10 <supermop> then build wires orver it you want 18:51:47 <supermop> build wires onto RoW as you would build track over road? 18:52:02 <supermop> except with prohibition on building wires over nothing? 18:52:16 <andythenorth> toggling wires on and off is weird I think 18:53:30 <supermop> dropdown> build road/build tramway/build trolley wire 18:54:24 <andythenorth> well itâs an idea 18:54:30 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6A4C7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:54:39 <andythenorth> but that makes building electric trams really tedious, no? 18:56:11 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-195-191.gdiv2.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 18:57:01 <supermop> yeah 18:57:05 <supermop> it does 18:57:10 <supermop> but not really 18:57:40 <supermop> dragging the build cursor twice around town is like 10 sec extra 18:58:39 <andythenorth> thatâs quite a lot :) 19:00:38 <supermop> feels more honest than two separate types 19:02:32 <frosch123> how about splitting the main toolbar button? 19:02:52 <andythenorth> o_O ? 19:02:55 <frosch123> [build railway] [build road] [build tram] [build canal] 19:03:08 <andythenorth> well that might be a viable patch 19:03:12 <frosch123> then the build tram and build road can have the types in the dropdown (with, without catenary) 19:03:21 <andythenorth> it would improve gameplay, irrespective of my patch idea 19:03:22 <frosch123> without weirdly mixing road and tram types 19:04:00 <andythenorth> would we also split the road vehicles menu? 19:04:05 <andythenorth> probably not 19:04:23 <frosch123> true, that part would be weird 19:05:02 <frosch123> however, this always annoyed me: in the station window there are separate icons for bus and truck, but not for trams 19:05:16 <andythenorth> itâs a bit janky eh? 19:06:12 <andythenorth> hmm, is it not just a truck icon? 19:06:27 <andythenorth> oh different window perhaps 19:06:56 <frosch123> the bus/truck differentiation is very inconsistent :) 19:07:00 <frosch123> there is only one vehicle list 19:07:08 <frosch123> separate icons in station list and station sign 19:07:26 <frosch123> only one icon in for ordered vehicles in the station window 19:07:37 <frosch123> different counting of vehicles in company gui, network gui and so on 19:07:54 <andythenorth> ha 19:08:10 *** LadyHawk [~LadyHawk@5751e87a.skybroadband.com] has quit [] 19:08:18 * andythenorth wonders if a catenary toggle on the construction toolbar actually is best solution 19:08:23 <andythenorth> having considered quite a few others 19:09:24 <frosch123> i guess i would trash the bus icon 19:09:33 <andythenorth> yeah, that seems nonsense 19:09:37 <frosch123> and separate trams for road vehicles in all places 19:09:47 <andythenorth> we donât have split trains / boats / planes for pax / freight 19:10:00 <frosch123> not sure about vehicle lists 19:10:00 <andythenorth> seems like over-diligence from the stops being split 19:10:32 <frosch123> splitting the list into rv and tram lists would make the names weird 19:10:42 <frosch123> since the naming "road vehicle 1 2 3" would still be shared 19:11:03 <andythenorth> could change that? o_O 19:11:05 <frosch123> though it is also shared with groups, right? and noone complained about that 19:11:08 <andythenorth> Tram 1 2 3 :P 19:11:18 <frosch123> though maybe that is only because people usually name groups 19:11:24 * andythenorth never names groups 19:11:32 <andythenorth> theyâre just for autoreplace filtering :P 19:11:46 <andythenorth> hmm 19:11:47 <frosch123> hmm, actually... trams and rv could be named independently while still being in the same pool 19:12:02 <andythenorth> is it just a string prefix? 19:12:25 <andythenorth> ach, all the places though :) 19:12:27 <andythenorth> finances window 19:12:37 <frosch123> i was more thinking about the function that assigns a unique "unitnumber" to a pool item 19:12:45 <andythenorth> oic 19:13:06 <andythenorth> âroad vehicle destroyed in collisionâ 19:13:12 <andythenorth> âroad vehicle is lost' 19:18:56 <andythenorth> the toolbar toggle is not the best solution 19:19:08 <andythenorth> the menu on the main toolbar would be best 19:19:20 <andythenorth> but I could see how to patch the toggle :P 19:25:44 *** Klanticus [~quassel@179.234.180.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:34:17 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:38 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 19:41:55 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 19:41:56 <drac_boy> hi 19:42:04 <drac_boy> sim-a12 you the trainnut there atm? :P 19:42:11 <drac_boy> or how about you flygon :p 19:43:12 <sim-al2> hi 19:43:39 <drac_boy> btw I found the article about that steam locomotive being cut down due to an ancient tunnel... 19:44:33 *** frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 19:45:10 <drac_boy> seem the line was originally worked by Johnson 2F's (small-boiler 0-6-0 from look of one photo) and they were getting old so two 'Standard 2MT' were sent to shed for cab roof reductions among other things to work the route with till traffic finally closed 1966 19:45:29 <drac_boy> the funny thing is the tab of page is titled 'tunnel vision' and the article title is 'cut to fit!' :) 19:46:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: suddenly I am tired and itâs bedtime :) 19:46:05 <andythenorth> back tomorrow? 19:50:53 <drac_boy> btw I can't quite tell but it seem like there are some noticeable differences between this http://www.stainmore150.co.uk/images/46480%20634.jpg being a normal 2MT and this having different cab windows probably due to the roof being lowered downward a bit http://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/img/s11/v35/p901634456-3.jpg 19:51:00 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 19:51:47 <drac_boy> if you're wondering tho. the two 2MT that were cut down are 78013 and 78028 19:53:18 <sim-al2> The locomotive in the first pic also has an extra dome between the steam(?) dome and the stack 19:53:40 <drac_boy> also one other thing I finally found an online copy of .. april 1912 river flooding, but umm well if the firebox door is still higher than the water then who is going complain about still keeping some service moving abit slowly? http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wkno/files/styles/medium/public/memflood1912.jpg 19:54:54 <sim-al2> Assuming the bearing boxes don't flood too quckly, and the cylinder kept clear, there should be no problem until water hits the firebox metal... 19:55:44 <drac_boy> well crews usually only think its a problem if the water is getting to the cab floor .. but oil fired locomotives somehow have been known to literally run slight submerged...! (sealed with no doors, so go figure) 19:55:56 <drac_boy> crazy old days I guess heh 19:56:26 <sim-al2> Shock cooling the firebox seems like a bad idea, but the boiler would be even worse 19:57:14 <sim-al2> Not to mention, water doesn't really compress, and letting water flood the cylinders will end badly 19:58:08 <drac_boy> this....is going a wee bit fast :) https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3c/1e/dc/3c1edc7fa895e63c09bc248825df4fc4.jpg 19:58:56 <sim-al2> Hmm, I wonder how much traction you have at that point 19:59:09 <sim-al2> Water cooled brakes though! 20:00:14 <sim-al2> The bogie on the DE10 diesel is rather interesting to look at: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ja/4/44/JRN_DE10_Truck_DT141_20071020_001.jpg 20:00:38 <drac_boy> well as most of the weight package is above the chassis (save for any low slung-between-drivers fireboxes which were a bit rare by then) so even at 15kph theres still some traction weight for a few good wagons 20:00:57 <sim-al2> It's not a C, but rather an AAA 20:02:00 <drac_boy> mm 20:02:21 <sim-al2> I don't think they will float much, but certainly that much water will hurt traction. Normally, the first set of wheels of a rail vehicle will vaporize/force the water off the rails 20:03:03 <sim-al2> Many American locomotives have a button to apply sand to only the leading bogie 20:04:30 <sim-al2> GE took the idea to the logical conclusion, and the High Tractive Effort option AC locomotives have little air nozzles mounted on the bogie that try to clean the rail before the first wheelset 20:05:08 <drac_boy> btw unrelated but I found one photo in recent magazine .. and you wouldn't guess the description ... a train hit a packed straight body truck leaving it all maligned but heres the thing "..after ten minutes the train then resumed its way like nothing happened, how long would it had taken today?" 20:06:33 *** Dakkus [dakkus@taimen.sr2.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:37 <sim-al2> I suppose legal concerns weren't really on the mind of the dispatcher 20:07:25 <drac_boy> oh yeah sim-a12 some of the express specific locomotives (especially the big NYC Niagara too) did have a separate water pipe between locomotive and tender to wash sand off the rails to lower the friction for the coaches following behind .. usually on uphill curves 20:08:28 <drac_boy> considering that these kind of locomotives usually could scoop water the fact of dumping water onto the ground for short times didn't seem as worrisome 20:09:23 <drac_boy> btw about the dispatcher I think its more like "we only got one line, lets just keep trains moving. the police can talk to the crew later" 20:10:35 <sim-al2> I'm sure large companies were much less legally adverse, but it's not like railroads didn't face lawsuits for accidents 20:10:38 <drac_boy> then again the old days had lot of people helping out as soon as an accident happened but now thanks to sue-happy lawyer world you don't even have these as much anymore 20:16:54 <drac_boy> (and of course no orange vests or hard hats for the final cleanup crews either) 20:17:29 <drac_boy> heres an uk one http://www.thegreenwichphantom.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/maze-hill-train-crash-GHC-low-2.jpg 20:18:14 <drac_boy> at least looks like they already cut out the ground power if that steam locomotive on the two coaches is a sign 20:20:27 <sim-al2> Considering that the guy is literally standing on the third rail 20:20:53 <sim-al2> I'm sure the wreckage shorted it out anyway 20:21:11 <sim-al2> If not, the crew of the train would use their grounding bar to di it 20:21:15 <sim-al2> *do it 20:21:47 <drac_boy> btw you remind me of a well-reviewed accident... 20:23:38 <drac_boy> claphill or something (I can't remember from memory now) .. one emu came to green signal but it suddenly turned red before he passed it so stopped shortly to contact dispatcher but for some reason a 2nd train following rammed into it .. power finally shut off just as a third train coming and driver was wondering about the loss of power till he then saw the accident and at a lower speed came to a stop safely away from the whol 20:24:17 <drac_boy> one of the signal ground wire was at fault ... due to the whole "contractor pass out to subcontractor" quality issues as I recall 20:25:11 <sim-al2> Yeah, there were apparently loose wires inside the box they hadn't been isolated, and were able to contact the new wires 20:30:22 <drac_boy> also another kind of 3-trains accident would be the one at harrow and wealdstone .. one express ran into rear of a platform-standing express .. and as bad luck would have it another express train from other direction on nearby track struck the fresh wreck 20:30:35 <drac_boy> basically one of the island platform was almost all smashed :-/ 20:31:26 <sim-al2> Yeah, modern train radios are including the ability to automatically halt trains in an area around them. With CTC, the dispatcher could do that, but it would often take time 20:31:27 <drac_boy> only one more reason I recall that station is because one of the locomotive involved was an ex-turbine one 20:31:47 <drac_boy> (they rebuilt it to conventional piston setup but retained the "heavy-duty looking" trailing axle 20:33:17 <drac_boy> this is the as-built turbine http://www.nrm.org.uk/img/nrm/worksphotos/Derby/1997-7397_DY_20079.jpg and this is the conversion (if url works) http://www.railuk.info/gallery/thumbnail4.php?src=../gallery/steam/br_lms/46200.jpg 20:33:33 <drac_boy> you can see what I mean about that trailing frame looking more serious than on most other usual locomotives 20:33:34 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:36:19 <sim-al2> Increased firebox size? I wonder why it was designed that way 20:37:19 <drac_boy> yeah good question, I don't really know a lot about the turbomotive (as its name really was..funny but good one) 20:38:12 <drac_boy> I do know that the PRR S2 carried a 6-8-6 layout for some reason .. big firebox on rear I can understand but I dunno why the front too (a 4-8-6 would had been ok too) 20:41:45 <drac_boy> oh and while we're talking about less usual things .. how about the fact that uk had what was basically a 4-2-2-2, it was actually basically a 4-pistons 4-4-2 .. kinda strange that they would have duplex single drivers as I recall it was noted that many engineers didn't like these locomotive 20:48:46 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:54:03 <drac_boy> anyway this chat beside, what you doing? :) 20:55:14 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:58:41 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:99c3:5c2:edb1:6498] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:07 <sim-al2> Not much 21:04:33 <sim-al2> Duplex locomotives are rather odd, the seperate cylinders are supposed to reduce track forces, but the tradeoffs are pretty significant 21:05:01 <drac_boy> well this was probably the most oddest one .. a 4-2-2-2 basically 0_o 21:05:55 <drac_boy> but on the other hand PRR's nice attempt at 4-4-4-4 was a honest attempt but it was too rushed through any proper testings by oncoming diesel orders (no surprise that many engineers found it quite 'slippery') 21:06:43 <drac_boy> also other thing with that one was that modern metallurgy had made the siderods for 4-8-4's lighter so they had less track pounding problem .. a case of "trying to solve an nonexisting problem" eventually 21:07:29 <sim-al2> The advances in valvegear would have helped, except that conventional valvegear was cheaper 21:07:48 <drac_boy> still wondered what the real history behind the 4-6-4-2 (yep irregular duplex) semi-streamliner was tho 21:08:51 <drac_boy> heres a good photo of it http://www.steamlocomotive.com/streamlined/scrapped/prr6130.jpg 21:09:27 <sim-al2> I think it's actually a 4-6-4-4, the PRR Q1 class 21:09:42 <drac_boy> oh, ops didn't noticed I had the wrong numpad number till now :) 21:09:45 <drac_boy> yeah you're right :p 21:10:18 <sim-al2> Hmmm, apparently designed for freight service, but the rear cylinders had many issues because they were right next to the firebox 21:10:32 <sim-al2> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/PRR_Q1_minus_streamlining.jpg 21:11:21 <drac_boy> btw I forgot which country it was but there was this one where the mallet actually had three axles of one diameter on the high pressure side and two axles of slight larger diameters on the low pressure side, something about trying to cure the sluggish performance of the LP drive 21:11:33 <drac_boy> it actually lasted for quite a while in service surprisingly 21:12:25 <drac_boy> yeah firebox and piston together doesn't always make a great idea .. even less with track gauge in question 21:12:30 <sim-al2> Hmmm, different wheel diameters? Might have interesting results in tighter curves 21:12:41 <drac_boy> yep .. LP and HP axles were different diameters 21:13:05 <drac_boy> btw about piston positions .. you remind me of a somewhat obstructive example (by nowaday that is) one sec... 21:15:04 <sim-al2> Oh, I thought you meant different wheel diameters on the left side vs the right side. As long as the mounting of the two sets of drivers compensated, I don't think there would be a problem 21:16:09 <drac_boy> hm I'm not sure where it could be (if it was ever online at all) but anyway .. as I recall it was a small 0-4-4-0 or 0-6-6-0 (as typical early mallets were) .. and well before superheaters existed ... 21:16:54 <drac_boy> for russia operation (or at least some other northern country in europe I forgot) ... the pistons were placed literally butt-to-butt right in the very middle (rather than the front truck having pistons mounted forward as was typical) 21:17:29 <drac_boy> the book editor wisely and probably correctly noted that it was a maintenance headache as you couldn't simply remove the piston covers to get to the cylinder bores :-/ 21:18:31 <drac_boy> superheating removed the problem with temperature loss and so such the HP pistons could be placed up front without any performance degradation even if running in alaska or russia I imagine :) 21:18:48 <drac_boy> but this pre-superheat mallet was a rather odd one in my view 21:19:24 <drac_boy> the funny thing is I did find a different kind of 0-4-4-0 that at least left some space between the pistons http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/16/Bagnall_1.jpg 21:22:32 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19C59.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 21:22:39 <sim-al2> That's a rather interesting design 21:23:07 <drac_boy> still you know what I mean? the pistons were literally back to back with almost no gap ... what was going on anyway? 21:25:16 <sim-al2> I suppose they wanted the forward set as close to the boiler as possible, to reduce heat losses 21:25:55 <drac_boy> yeah, thankgod for superheaters later on ;) 21:28:23 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34:00 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 21:43:09 *** Dakkus [dakkus@taimen.sr2.fi] has joined #openttd 21:46:11 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 21:48:17 <sim-al2> It's interesting that many smaller locomotives lacked superheaters even to the end 21:48:44 <sim-al2> But I suppose power was not the concern, compared to ease of maintenance 21:57:09 <drac_boy> yeah, different kind of topic but still similar story still .. how about taking a GP15 and strip out its turbo if it still has one .. then otherwise simply keep it going in light yardshed duty? :) 21:58:20 <sim-al2> GP15's wouldn't have a turbo (except the GP15T, but the two customers for them would have wanted the turbo) 21:58:58 <sim-al2> GP20 and GP30 would, and would be great candidates for removing the thing 21:59:28 <drac_boy> well excuse me for not knowing the entire emd craps :P 21:59:29 <sim-al2> the turbo used on the 567 engines apparently was more problematic than the later designs 21:59:37 <drac_boy> I do know GP30 had that funny 50's style hood roof tho 21:59:40 <sim-al2> Yeah, the numbering system is absurd 22:00:07 <drac_boy> and GP60 was the last in term of 4-axle power for emd in usa afaik 22:00:26 <drac_boy> santa fe not surprisingly had a sizeable number of these for their hot trains on the long flat lines 22:00:37 <sim-al2> The GP15 is basically a lower power GP38, with a 12 cylinder engine 22:00:55 <drac_boy> bnsf did mix them with 6-axle powers but eventually yeah the GP60 was a bit past its limit by then 22:00:59 <sim-al2> The GP15T has the same 1500hp with an 8 cylinder turbo engine 22:01:37 <sim-al2> Apparently the lack of demand along with weight issues precluded further 4 axle designs of more power 22:02:18 <sim-al2> The commuter roads were happy with 3000hp at the time, and Amtrak went to GE for the specialized P40/P42 design 22:03:03 <sim-al2> The F125 is finally a new high power EMD 4 axle design, but with a Catapillar engine... 22:04:59 <drac_boy> actually heres the funny thing.. 22:05:19 <drac_boy> there was really a F40PH but without the turbo .. not sure if it was ever sold to anyone or got stuck as a book-only thing that never came to be 22:06:03 <sim-al2> I wonder who would have bought that anyway, the turbo engine is more fuel efficient at higher power anyway 22:06:26 <sim-al2> There are some F40PH's pulling freight in Panama now 22:07:54 <sim-al2> Metrolink in SoCal bought 4 SD60's, with the plan to swap the 645 in 4 F40PHs with the 710 in the SD60s, but apparently they never got around to doing that 22:08:42 <sim-al2> Potentially would have created 3800hp F40's though 0.o 22:10:36 <drac_boy> heh :) 22:23:47 *** supermop [~supermop@static-71-249-209-97.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:02 <drac_boy> oh btw I have a small book about the Deltic and one of the early post-prototype test they did was to run a route with either both engine on as usual or only one on ... somehow not surprisingly the latter didn't have too much difficulty but it was noted that a bit less than half the hp was available due to generator load (train lights etca) etc only across one engine instead of two 22:32:45 <drac_boy> and one somewhat comical problem was that the first batches of tests had been with a steam-era train on a simple timetable and when they were eventually assigned to normal schedules (heavier trains at higher average speeds) they suddenly started having many small reliability issues (including something to do with oil cooler for a while too) .. no surprise on that tho 22:34:43 <sim-al2> Those engines were run pretty hard, considering they were orginal boat engines 22:35:42 <drac_boy> yeah 22:36:17 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest9048 22:36:18 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-157-231.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 22:36:26 <sim-al2> Despite the similarity, there's a long history of ship engines not doing well in locomotives 22:36:31 <drac_boy> there is one other side of the comical things tho .. if a Deltic was failed and there was no other diesel locomotive .. well .. cue steam locomotive but by the time they got to king cross the poor fireman always had to go for a drink of a really strong pint 22:36:57 <drac_boy> when you think about it you kinda have to feel poor for the fireman, trying to keep the firebox a bit too hot due to the punishing schedule to keep 22:37:54 <sim-al2> Yeah, at least orginally on the LNER the tenders had a corridor to allow the crew to swap out without stopping the train 22:38:25 <drac_boy> I think I've seen that, requires tight fit men to fit through it 22:42:46 *** Guest9048 [~sim-al2@108-221-157-231.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:44:59 <drac_boy> as for ship engines...that sometimes makes me think of this rare one-off that could had been but wasn't http://www.msrailroads.com/images/gmo-24.jpg 22:45:14 <drac_boy> funny how the turret looks like one you would find on a tugboat .. you know :) 22:45:24 <drac_boy> and yep it was a marine V8 behind the cab section 22:45:47 <sim-al2> Sulzer had some problems too, but they were able to eventually solve a number of them 22:46:15 <sim-al2> There are marine versions of the GE and EMD engines though 22:52:11 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.136.141.100] has quit [] 23:02:49 <Flygon> I was away 23:03:21 * drac_boy wonders if I should pound flygon with an aussie diesel? :P 23:03:29 <drac_boy> heh just being silly ;) 23:03:42 <Flygon> Err 23:06:45 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:14:35 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:16:25 <drac_boy> anyway going off for now, have fun 23:16:31 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [] 23:18:13 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 23:27:49 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 23:31:12 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d08348b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 23:34:09 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19C59.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:56 *** LadyHawk [~LadyHawk@5751e87a.skybroadband.com] has joined #openttd