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00:09:16 *** debdog has quit IRC 00:12:35 *** debdog has joined #openttd 00:22:33 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest3816 00:22:35 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 00:25:36 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 00:26:30 *** Guest3816 has quit IRC 00:29:16 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 00:44:41 *** minisylf is now known as Sylf 00:53:40 *** blocage has quit IRC 00:59:56 *** mescalito has quit IRC 01:41:03 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 02:19:31 *** TheHawk has joined #openttd 02:24:49 *** cHawk has quit IRC 02:37:19 *** TheHawk has quit IRC 02:45:26 *** grossing has quit IRC 02:51:40 *** glx has quit IRC 03:07:35 *** nekomaster has joined #openttd 03:07:53 <nekomaster> So i'm having a bit of an issue with a new project I'm working on 03:08:14 <nekomaster> RAIL type vehicles only appear when I have a Trackset loaded 03:23:03 *** nekomaster has left #openttd 03:32:45 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 03:37:30 *** cHawk has quit IRC 03:43:38 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 03:54:31 *** techmagus has quit IRC 04:03:27 *** techmagus has joined #openttd 04:03:32 *** qwebirc34517 has joined #openttd 04:15:51 *** debdog has quit IRC 04:22:06 *** debdog has joined #openttd 04:28:22 *** qwebirc34517 has quit IRC 05:03:06 *** Cubey has quit IRC 05:17:22 *** debdog has quit IRC 05:18:22 *** debdog has joined #openttd 05:20:13 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 05:33:01 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 05:33:45 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 05:49:38 <andythenorth> o/ 06:04:38 *** adf88 has joined #openttd 06:15:11 *** gentz has quit IRC 06:17:45 *** gentz has joined #openttd 06:21:09 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 06:21:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 06:44:02 <LordAro> o/ 06:52:00 <andythenorth> moin 07:01:06 <Alberth> o/ 07:01:44 *** Progman has joined #openttd 07:05:28 <andythenorth> @summon Wolf01 07:05:28 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk 07:09:47 <Alberth> wait a few hours :p 07:11:36 <andythenorth> what does it even mean? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5695 07:14:06 <LordAro> just a refactot 07:14:19 <LordAro> probably harmless, if a bit redundant 07:14:22 <andythenorth> good, or reject? 07:15:13 <LordAro> that decision needs a dev :p 07:21:35 * andythenorth wasn’t aware GS couldn’t already do this :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6381 07:21:39 <andythenorth> _dp_: ^ tested it 07:25:07 <andythenorth> nah https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5981 07:25:28 <andythenorth> big UI change, based on a thread with no clear outcome 07:28:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't be so quick to throw that out 07:28:52 <andythenorth> I’ll rephrase 07:28:56 <andythenorth> I’m not testing that :P 07:29:19 <andythenorth> I’ve hit the end of easily-rejected FS 07:29:52 <andythenorth> I’m working down the list of 64 FS categorised as patch 07:30:04 <andythenorth> seeing if they are testable by me 07:30:23 <andythenorth> common problems with testing: 07:30:44 <andythenorth> - not clear what the intended change would be, so no criteria to test 07:31:11 <andythenorth> - hg patch queues (I refuse, $someone else can do those) 07:31:47 <andythenorth> - codechanges/refactoring with no obvious gameplay result to test 07:32:18 <andythenorth> - patches don’t apply on repo tip I’m using for testing 07:32:39 <andythenorth> - patches are for an OS I don’t have 07:34:28 <LordAro> that's funny because the patch queues are the ones more likely to be accepted :p 07:34:41 <andythenorth> is that historically true? 07:34:47 <andythenorth> I haven’t been through closed patches 07:35:18 <LordAro> i've no idea, but devs very much prefer the smaller individual changes over the large single patch 07:36:16 <andythenorth> presumably I can apply them in git, I just have to read the revs to get them in the right order? 07:36:26 <andythenorth> or are they order-independent? 07:36:42 <LordAro> hopefully the files are prefixed by numbers 07:36:50 <LordAro> so it's obvious which order they are in 07:37:01 <LordAro> `git am` *might* be able to apply them 07:37:22 <LordAro> i did that with ic's improved timetables, but it required some manual steps 07:37:47 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5284 07:37:53 <andythenorth> presumably 00 is applied, then 01? 07:37:57 <LordAro> yeah 07:38:00 <andythenorth> anything else would seem daft 07:38:05 <LordAro> :p 07:41:22 <andythenorth> seems to be a lot of stuff around filtering 07:41:33 <andythenorth> filter news, filter stations, filter vehicles, filter industry 07:41:43 <andythenorth> e.g. https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5709 07:44:57 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:45:52 <Alberth> 5695 (Patch to make filter_funcs members of BuildVehicleWindow ) doesn't look terribly interesting 07:46:01 <Alberth> just move some code in the same file 07:46:49 <andythenorth> basically a no-op? 07:47:09 <Alberth> it's now a function in the file, it becomes a function of that class 07:47:26 <andythenorth> at work, we effectively ban changes like that 07:47:27 <Alberth> but we have static filter functions all over the place 07:47:36 <andythenorth> it’s cost to QA 07:47:39 <andythenorth> for no customer benefit 07:47:43 <Alberth> and many of them are shared 07:47:52 <andythenorth> tends to originate with less experienced engineers 07:47:55 <andythenorth> looks harmless 07:48:03 <andythenorth> but sometimes has unintended consequences which show up later 07:48:13 <Alberth> by "hiding" them in the class, you reduce the chance that it will be found for re-use 07:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be useful if we were to move towards some cleaner object-oriented model. but just randomly moving it without following such a larger architectural goal is probably useless 07:49:09 <Alberth> I am not even sure you can make a clean OO model for this 07:49:23 <Alberth> sharing stuff isn't a storing point in OO :p 07:49:44 <Alberth> *strong 07:50:43 <Alberth> 6381 (SetRating) is not implemented currently, and I am very doubtful it should be 07:51:31 <Alberth> ie the first thing that happens is that some one will write "outstandingGS" that pushes all cities to outstanding rating no matter what you do 07:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> why is that a bad thing? 07:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> people request that all the time 07:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and the answer is always "use magic bulldozer", which does a bit too much 07:53:01 <Alberth> let's just have a completely flat world without any obstacle 07:53:25 <Alberth> it defeats an obstacle in the game 07:53:35 <Alberth> just like signals on bridges 07:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so? lots of other obstacles left 07:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> people can (and do) already create completely flat maps 07:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> not all people, but some people 07:54:11 <Alberth> sure, and that's fine 07:54:38 <Alberth> but why do you use water if you don't want obstacles? 07:54:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a game. people should be able to remove the annoying limitations of a game and keep the interesting ones 07:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> what's annoying and what's interesting varies between people and playstyles 07:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "this doesn't align with <random dev>'s playstyle" is not a good reason to reject gameplay features 07:56:50 <Alberth> so we just accept any patch? 07:57:32 *** Progman has quit IRC 07:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> non sequitur 07:58:11 <Alberth> ie ignore TE and power on engines patch?> 07:58:38 <Alberth> I mean, it's just horrible annoying that steam trains do'n to 40000 km/h 07:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: if enough people requested that? why not? 07:59:38 <Alberth> disable crashes en ignore signals patch? 07:59:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's a perfectly fine cheat. 08:01:33 <Alberth> cheats are just a way to hide some functions that we like less, imho 08:01:47 <Alberth> move all cheats to plain functions in the game? 08:02:13 <Alberth> I don't see any border where to guide on, any more 08:02:17 *** blocage has joined #openttd 08:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i'd split it into "disable crashes of trains with road vehicles" [possibly vehicle breaks down instead], and "disable crashes between two trains" [trains behave like road vehicles] 08:03:03 <Alberth> yeah, there are a zillion variations how to do it 08:03:18 <Alberth> I was just dumping random weird ideas to find a border 08:03:30 <Alberth> but that failed 08:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we'll come to an agreement about this. 08:05:18 <Alberth> I wasn't going to reject 6381, but I won't add it either 08:05:32 <Alberth> seems likely, Eddi :) 08:06:04 <LordAro> Alberth: isn't the whole point of andy's close spree that doing nothing with an issue is bad? 08:06:17 <LordAro> close it or engage in some sort of dialogue about it 08:06:23 <Alberth> any picture for 5981 ? 08:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: how was this not a dialog? :p 08:06:45 <Alberth> not at FS, I think 08:06:50 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, which ended in "i'm not going to do anything with it" 08:07:20 <Alberth> you can close issues as much as you like, but that doesn't stop the stream 08:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: yeah, next step would be looking for a dev willing to take it on 08:08:02 <Alberth> but nobody does that 08:08:34 <Alberth> so it sits there, and then it's our fault 08:08:36 <Alberth> oh joy 08:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we might not have enough devs, and not the infrastructure/coordination to regularly discuss open requests like that 08:12:31 <andythenorth> dialogue eh 08:12:35 * andythenorth might have a product for that :P 08:23:01 <andythenorth> it’s ok, any issue over 3 years old naturally dies 08:23:21 <andythenorth> eventually the number of FS is ~constant, because they’re dying at rate they’re added 08:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that logic does not quite add up :p 08:31:38 <LordAro> Alberth: i don't mean to assign blame at all. it just seems pointless to leave it there to do nothing if it's just going to rot until an andy comes along and deletes it 08:33:28 <LordAro> i'm always reasonably impressed when i come across a github project that's actually on top of its issue count, and amused when i come across something like https://github.com/ansible/ansible/issues 08:34:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I’m assuming a constant rate of addition per day 08:34:32 <andythenorth> and an equivalent constant rate of closure 08:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. 08:35:04 <andythenorth> I think that’s testable :P 08:39:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: for the record, I like 6381, I think GS should pretty much have carte-blanche :) 08:39:23 <andythenorth> delegating behaviours we don’t like to content is a good approach 08:41:18 <Alberth> LordAro: if the issues address things I see as problem too, it's simple to "be on top of them" 08:41:39 <Alberth> in OpenTTD, it's much like the suggestions forum, you get basically everything 08:42:10 <Alberth> ie the more mature the project, the more diverse the issues, as core stuff is running 08:43:01 <LordAro> that's true 08:43:29 <LordAro> perhaps it needs to be bundled under a larger "sandbox mode" issue 08:43:34 <LordAro> in this particular case 08:43:59 <Alberth> even more sand than we have now? :D 08:44:03 <LordAro> :D 08:46:26 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I never applied for reviewing and judging random patches that have no meaning to me, and I think that holds for all 08:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: lots of people end up doing things they didn't apply for :p 08:47:33 <Alberth> so it's basically down to the devs interest 08:47:55 <Alberth> if I get paid, I don't care (much) :p 08:48:12 <andythenorth> I was thinking same other day, in a positive way 08:48:29 <andythenorth> was going to reply in one of recent forum threads, but didn’t find correct words 08:48:52 <andythenorth> variation of “what I make, I make for me" 08:49:06 <andythenorth> I like that there are players, and I like have players use my stuff 08:49:24 <andythenorth> but my objective when I started wasn’t popularity or download counts 08:49:30 <Alberth> that doesn't hold much for me, I am more interested in solving the technical problem 08:49:52 <Alberth> if other like it too, that's bonus 08:50:27 <Alberth> but that's also a personal thing, different people have different goals 08:51:47 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 08:53:40 <Alberth> I think if you want to have a dev look at it, you have to "sell" it to some extent 08:54:51 <LordAro> s/"sell" it/nag them constantly/ 08:54:54 <LordAro> ;) 08:55:02 <Alberth> ie the big UI change 5981, it doesn't even have a screenshot 08:56:16 <Alberth> so I have to make a clone, get the patch, apply, compile, run, find the windows that changed from the patch file, and then look 08:56:20 <andythenorth> I’m intending, if I can be arsed 08:56:26 <andythenorth> to make a guide to getting a patch through 08:56:39 <andythenorth> but that somewhat pre-supposes active reviewers :) 08:56:44 <Alberth> then unapply the patch, compile, run the game, and look again to check what exactly changed 08:57:02 <Alberth> that takes me 30 minutes or so 08:57:14 <Alberth> just to see what has actually changed 08:58:19 *** keoz has joined #openttd 08:59:11 <andythenorth> all that, and the natural destiny of most patches is still ‘no’ :) 08:59:21 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 09:00:06 <andythenorth> where is the line crossed where devs have a social responsibility to the community? 09:00:11 <andythenorth> is that even a thing? 09:00:12 <blocage> Alberth, why do not reply that to the bug: split patch for each chang, submit screenshot before/after 09:00:40 <andythenorth> I know some people making open-source, 3D printable replacement limbs 09:00:46 <andythenorth> we’re making a game about pixel trains :P 09:00:59 <andythenorth> social responsibility differs, eh? 09:01:19 <Alberth> I see my responsibility as providing a stable game 09:02:44 <Alberth> blocage: sure, but I mean, isn't it equally logical that the author himself thinks of this? 09:02:58 <andythenorth> not sure I feel any social responsibility :P 09:03:13 <andythenorth> I do in my actual job, but not here 09:03:22 <gentz> I will take your advice LordAro, buy nagging you guys to add this patch: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6617 09:03:25 <blocage> Alberth, not all author as experimented opensource developpers 09:03:29 <gentz> s/buy/by 09:03:50 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:03:59 <Wolf01> o/ 09:04:01 <andythenorth> lo Wolf01 09:04:18 <gentz> o/ 09:04:21 <Alberth> blocage: but it's the same everywhere, a report, a presentation 09:04:31 <Alberth> but be my guest, add a note :) 09:04:56 <andythenorth> contributing to the project is a mess eh? :) 09:05:03 <Alberth> gentz: oh that one 09:05:16 <andythenorth> where do Iook for guidance? Forums? Wiki? Here? Github? do-not-readme? 09:05:22 <gentz> Ummm... is there any specific dev I should nag/sell my idea too? 09:05:26 <andythenorth> gentz: no 09:05:35 <gentz> Or do I just do that to all of you? 09:05:38 <andythenorth> you just have to get lucky on one who is interested at the time 09:05:44 <Alberth> if it wasn't me, I would not have responded 09:05:44 <andythenorth> you’ll mostly get no 09:06:10 <Alberth> I don't think this will fly, ever 09:06:28 <Alberth> you tried this in MP? 09:06:32 <Wolf01> andythenorth: why are you trying to summon me at that hour? XD 09:06:44 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#ToDo_list 09:06:46 <andythenorth> what’s left? 09:06:49 <gentz> Alberth, no 09:06:53 <andythenorth> that list is full of ponies, which aren’t needed 09:06:57 <gentz> Hold on as I test it 09:07:18 <Alberth> I assume it will desync horribly, without even having seen the patchbut aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types 09:07:39 <Wolf01> Eh, roadtypes built by towns might be a requirement 09:07:46 <Alberth> but aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types is something that the default set enforces 09:07:57 <andythenorth> what if we ship it in the nightly, and find out about towns being a requirement? 09:08:01 <Alberth> if you don't want that, don't play with the default set 09:09:29 <andythenorth> hmm 09:09:30 <Alberth> imho a much better strategy here is to create new lines alongside the old ones 09:09:37 <andythenorth> might just close all patch FS > 3 years 09:09:40 <andythenorth> dead 09:10:02 <Alberth> that's much more fun than just mass-upgarde and continue doing what you already did 09:10:12 <gentz> I can proudly say it didn't dsync! 09:10:16 <Alberth> andy some may be relevant for being kept open 09:10:32 <Wolf01> If I get frosch to merge my branch to NRT, at least to fix the editor, or we can ship NRT as it is now and fix things with time 09:11:04 <Alberth> gentz: unfortunately, lack of desync doesn't proof safety 09:11:08 <andythenorth> the more I look at the patch queue, the more I hate it 09:11:28 <Alberth> stop looking :p 09:11:29 <gentz> Alberth, what more testing does it need? 09:11:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: that’s cheating :) 09:11:47 <andythenorth> I have chosen to play this game, and I won’t quit yet 09:12:19 <Alberth> gentz: I don't think it will be merged 09:12:27 <Alberth> newgrf has solved this problem 09:12:27 <andythenorth> so we have ‘patch’ category 09:12:35 <gentz> :( 09:12:46 <andythenorth> and we have ‘with patch’ status 09:12:56 <gentz> But my patch doesn't add a new rail-type 09:13:09 <andythenorth> just ‘patch’ category tells nothing about whether it’s bug or feature request 09:13:11 <Alberth> gentz: if you want to skip upgrade, simply start in 2100 or so 09:13:22 <Alberth> enable "all trains forever" 09:13:35 <LordAro> gentz: i warned you :3 09:13:38 * andythenorth wonders 09:13:45 <andythenorth> what is this upgrading business? 09:13:48 * andythenorth never upgrades 09:13:54 <andythenorth> seems to cause a lot of heartache 09:13:58 <andythenorth> for those who do 09:14:03 <andythenorth> why is it a thing? 09:14:11 <Alberth> default set forces you to upgrade 09:14:13 <LordAro> andythenorth: i feel like most of these "issues" will go away if/when a move to something with issues/pullrequests built in 09:14:27 <gentz> All it does is remove the same rail-type check from the replace window and call autoreplace on every train in a depot 09:14:32 <andythenorth> that’s the default gameplay Alberth, why change it? 09:14:46 <Alberth> ask gentz 09:14:54 <gentz> How could it possibly dysnc! 09:14:55 <andythenorth> seems like we need UI scripting to me 09:15:07 <andythenorth> shitloads of FS is about order and train management 09:15:18 <Alberth> it's a train game :p 09:15:26 <andythenorth> nearly all of them quite person-specific requests 09:15:38 <andythenorth> which would be solved with a scriptable UI 09:15:52 <andythenorth> except nobody would bother writing the scripts :) 09:15:54 <andythenorth> but eh 09:16:24 <LordAro> i'd imagine it's probably fine desync-wise, given it doesn't actually call any commands itself 09:16:30 <Wolf01> Ok, I was about to say something but you already discussed about it, so I keep reading 09:16:40 <LordAro> but bugs are almost by definition not easy to spot 09:17:07 <gentz> Which is why we should push it to trunk and wait for someone to spot something! 09:17:08 <Alberth> gentz: you're still with the idea to fix the default set, that's no-go land, especially as it has been solved already in newgrfs 09:18:03 <Alberth> and I think you play the game in the wrong way by mass-upgrading, but that's just my idea 09:18:49 <gentz> Whats the point of an convert tool if we can't/shouldn't use it? 09:19:00 <Alberth> ie if you enable "never remove old models" your entire problem disappears 09:19:16 <__ln__> https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2017/09/rental-camera-gear-destroyed-by-the-solar-eclipse-of-2017/ 09:19:30 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 09:19:42 <Alberth> what you mean, you can't use it? it works perfectly for everything but vehicles 09:20:21 <gentz> Can't use it without redoing all your trains. 09:20:47 <gentz> Also the convert tool is only available for trains 09:21:06 <gentz> Its nice for normal rail to electric... but nothing else 09:21:39 <Alberth> if you use railtypes that partly overlap, it works in general 09:22:16 <gentz> But nothing overlaps between electric and monorail (unless you use newgrfs) 09:23:05 <Alberth> why do you insist on a 1-1 copy of an entire new railtype in 1 minute? 09:23:32 <Alberth> the game is about building new track and stations etc 09:24:00 <andythenorth> does recoding the base set trains in newgrf solve this? 09:24:14 <Alberth> why do you don't avoid the entire issue by picking another railtype of trainset or start year 09:24:19 <andythenorth> just make them cross-compatible 09:24:34 <andythenorth> rail <-> maglev <-> monorail 09:24:46 <Alberth> that will work, quite likely 09:24:50 <andythenorth> boring upgrade clicks removed 09:25:01 <gentz> andythenorth, I can get behind that 09:25:22 <gentz> If it works 09:25:27 <Alberth> but why do you start a game in a setup where you KNOW that point will come 09:25:35 * andythenorth wonders 09:25:37 <Alberth> change the setup 09:25:49 <andythenorth> if all base vehicles were recoded as newgrf, with clean nml source 09:25:50 <gentz> Alberth, its a server which goes from 1940-2050 09:25:56 <andythenorth> a lot of problems would disappear 09:26:03 <gentz> You got to upgrade eventually 09:26:04 <Alberth> gentz: so? 09:26:39 <Alberth> use nuts 09:27:01 <Alberth> all train models exist for 255 years 09:27:11 <Wolf01> I solved the problem at the root: I only use rails (normal, electrified, different speed), not a single monorail or maglev 09:28:01 <gentz> It seams I'm not good at "selling"/nagging people here 09:28:10 <gentz> :/ 09:28:31 <Wolf01> There are grfs for what you want, why bother about vanilla stuff? 09:28:54 <gentz> I couldn't convince the server operator to add a new grf 09:28:58 <Alberth> gentz: you're not even open for other solutions, no point in discussing anything 09:29:03 <gentz> so I thought I could convince you guys 09:29:24 <Wolf01> Ahaha "I can't change one server so I'll change all of them" 09:29:33 <gentz> Yes 09:29:36 <Wolf01> GG. 09:30:02 <Alberth> you haven't made any point other than "I want this, and only this, and this whatI want" 09:30:41 <gentz> Alberth: What would be the requirement for scriptable ui? 09:30:42 <Alberth> if you want to convince anyone, you have to pull their counter arguments down 09:30:56 <Alberth> not MP killing, I think 09:31:31 <Alberth> unless you like an arms race in scripting the game 09:31:43 <Alberth> which is easier to achieve by making AIs 09:32:54 * andythenorth imagines a scriptable UI that can build 10k trains at once :P 09:33:07 <Alberth> no need for copy/paste anymore 09:33:11 <andythenorth> and then delete them at the end of the journey 09:33:13 <gentz> What specific things would it need to do? 09:33:24 <gentz> *be able to do 09:33:29 <Alberth> you just build the entire layout in 1 second 09:33:50 <Alberth> it's more what it shouldn't be able to do 09:34:20 <Alberth> If I have a script to assist me, normal players have no chance whatsoever 09:34:51 <gentz> One could limit number of actions a script can do per second 09:35:58 <Alberth> 1/second, so 400 train conversions or 10 wagons take 4000 secinds? 09:36:07 <Alberth> just an hour-ush 09:36:17 <Alberth> *of 10 wagons 09:36:56 <andythenorth> main irritating thing about patches - besides the work involved - is lack of context 09:37:04 <Alberth> or laying a 200 tile track, 30 seconds? 09:37:12 <gentz> 4/second would take 15mins 09:37:14 <andythenorth> I _think_ that’s what irritates frosch about them too maybe 09:37:18 <gentz> Just as long as me 09:37:28 <andythenorth> improving a section of the game goes better with at least some aims and a plan 09:37:33 <andythenorth> not just applying patches 09:38:03 <andythenorth> and lots of patches from people who won’t join irc and actually discuss 09:38:12 <Alberth> most patches are too small scaled in aim 09:38:24 <Alberth> which is understandable, but not very useful 09:38:31 <andythenorth> also, patches have a skewed value system 09:39:12 <andythenorth> some contribute patches, and see the patch as being very high value item 09:39:22 <andythenorth> whilst neglecting value of work to test patch, review patch 09:39:25 <Alberth> gentz: we should add a payment option :p 09:39:34 <andythenorth> and value of work to ensure the game has at least some coherence to the design 09:39:40 <Alberth> pay 50 to finish now :p 09:39:44 <andythenorth> the funny thing is 09:39:44 <Wolf01> andythenorth: what would you expect from the log parser? Other than just parsing the content of the log and put it into a database, and maybe some statistics 09:40:07 <andythenorth> Wolf01: that seems like enough win there 09:40:18 <andythenorth> the funny thing is….I get every pony I want 09:40:28 <andythenorth> but I only have two actual author commits 09:40:32 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 09:40:33 <andythenorth> so how? 09:40:51 <Alberth> you don't aim for unattainable ponies 09:41:05 <Alberth> and you're here discussing the pony 09:41:14 <Alberth> and why it's interesting 09:41:27 <andythenorth> I also make mockups, test grfs, nml patches 09:41:33 <andythenorth> I would do the docs, but I’m banned from newgrf wiki 09:41:37 <Alberth> indeed 09:41:52 <andythenorth> I also expect a default ‘no’ and I’m not surprised when I get it 09:41:53 <Alberth> but you make a case for it 09:42:30 <Alberth> and you accept that not everything is possible 09:42:50 <Alberth> probably from knowing the general limits and general direction 09:42:55 <andythenorth> I also test patches ASAP when asked, even if I really can’t be arsed a the time 09:43:34 <Alberth> including patches we need tested, and you happen to be the owner of a device :p 09:43:38 <andythenorth> so I’m pretty awesome eh 09:43:45 <Alberth> yeah :) 09:43:58 *** Celestar has quit IRC 09:44:07 * andythenorth clones andythenorth 09:44:14 <Alberth> uhoh... :p 09:44:39 <andythenorth> actually I don’t get every pony 09:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> just make them cross-compatible <-- that exists, it is called "universal railtype" 09:44:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that too :) 09:44:58 <andythenorth> solved problem 09:45:08 <andythenorth> sad ponies: there’s some stuff about the mess of water transport that I can’t get any traction for at all 09:45:14 <andythenorth> maybe I should try and patch it :P 09:45:19 <gentz> Ok, so the scriptable ui will need time limit on actions and a feature to donate to gentz... anything else before I try to do it? 09:46:01 <Alberth> very likely 09:46:09 <andythenorth> donations :) 09:46:12 <andythenorth> nice 09:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: our builtin squirrel interpreter has a limit to "opcodes" 09:46:55 <andythenorth> there are example cases in FS that could only (imo) be met by scripting 09:46:56 <Alberth> and has been disabled on design 09:46:57 <andythenorth> e.g. https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6151 09:47:16 <andythenorth> there is no good UI for that request, it’s basically a bullshit request with no thought in it 09:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which is not perfect, some supposedly "atomic" operations that took too long were forbidden. like "sort" 09:47:30 <andythenorth> it’s a total “I want a pony” from someone who can’t actually ride 09:48:11 <andythenorth> but a script could walk all vehicles, looking for the order, and replacing it 09:48:15 <Alberth> I am quite opposed to automating stuff 09:48:22 <gentz> FS? Whats that? 09:48:26 <Alberth> flyspray 09:48:34 <andythenorth> where ideas go to die :) 09:48:34 <gentz> oh 09:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the bug tracker 09:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: enabling AI for human player companies is supposedly a one-line patch 09:49:00 <Alberth> the entire point of a game is to be busy with it 09:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it was deliberately disabled 09:49:12 <Alberth> automating everything just deafeats that 09:49:18 <andythenorth> I dunno 09:49:24 <andythenorth> I don’t really care how people play 09:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, you'll get busy with automating things... it's just a metalevel game :p 09:49:42 <andythenorth> you can use comic sans on a mac, even though Steve Jobs was a typography perfectionist 09:49:47 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: write an AI 09:50:05 <Alberth> start programming in C++ 09:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem is "cheating" on servers that try to be competetive (even though that is a goal that can never be achieved) 09:50:33 <Alberth> ie it's not openttd :p 09:50:47 <andythenorth> I give, to be crude, zero fucks about MP other than desyncs 09:51:01 <andythenorth> so much MP bollocks 09:51:26 <Alberth> pretty much all servers are not co-op play 09:51:47 <andythenorth> playing MP to win is stupid in a non-winnable game 09:51:57 <andythenorth> GS is different 09:52:00 <Alberth> you just redefine winning :p 09:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yet, some people do it... are those people stupid? 09:52:44 <andythenorth> no, but specifically designing in that direction is stupid 09:53:06 <andythenorth> last time I played non-GS MP, I spent most of my time building a castle with newgrf 09:53:09 <Alberth> we're not taking many economic patches, you know :p 09:53:10 <andythenorth> and griefing Pikka 09:53:38 <andythenorth> non GS MP is mostly lulz 09:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, if you allow AI on human companies, then you'll attract the "wallhack"-"aimbot" crowd 09:54:01 <andythenorth> is that good or bad? 09:54:07 <andythenorth> hmm 09:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> say, someone makes a script that places rails whenever someone else places a station 09:54:18 <andythenorth> maybe we should add *more* griefing opportunities 09:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so the player can never use the station 09:54:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: well those people can play on bot servers against each other 09:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or, they buy exclusive rights in every town 09:54:57 <Alberth> if they did, it would be no problem 09:55:07 <gentz> Then they'd just ban ais 09:55:22 <andythenorth> what’s the problem in MP? 09:55:26 <gentz> And I'd get to enjoy my auto upgrades for a week 09:55:28 <Alberth> we did, by not allowing scriptable UI 09:55:32 <andythenorth> why don’t griefers just get kbanned? 09:55:52 * andythenorth is perplexed 09:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that needs efficient moderator/administrator tools 09:56:02 <Alberth> if I build a station in 0.1 seconds, is that grieving? 09:56:05 <andythenorth> no 09:56:26 <Alberth> 20 platforms, and all entry and exit tracks, signalling, everything? 09:56:29 <andythenorth> no 09:56:31 <andythenorth> it’s efficient 09:56:40 <andythenorth> but you are convincing me towards -1 on scriptable UI 09:56:46 <andythenorth> due to wailing from MP players 09:56:55 <andythenorth> MP is a pox on the game :P 09:57:01 <Alberth> so I can fill the entire map with proper routes in less than a minute 09:57:09 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, i'm not actually an MP player, i just take on a random position in this discussion 09:57:10 <andythenorth> yes 09:57:11 <Alberth> nice competitive play then :p 09:57:17 <andythenorth> at which point you have won at writing scripts 09:57:22 <gentz> Current AI has a speed limit, yes? 09:57:22 <Alberth> yep 09:57:25 <andythenorth> that’s some pretty good AI programming imho 09:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: solution might be a server flag "no scripts allowed" 09:57:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: find a server with a fixed map 09:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (hoping that people don't use "hacked" clients which ignore this flag) 09:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> also, something like the landscaping burst limits, for arbitrary commands 09:58:24 <andythenorth> no problem that isn’t solved with another flag 09:58:27 <andythenorth> except too many flags 09:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> flag to reduce the number of flags 09:58:41 <gentz> check for hacked client flag? 09:58:57 <Alberth> how are you going to do that? 09:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: we have that, it's called "version string" 09:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: but you can hack that, too :p 09:59:13 <andythenorth> can never trust the client 09:59:17 <andythenorth> hmm 09:59:31 <andythenorth> what stops me just making a client with scripting in it, and joining servers? 09:59:40 <Alberth> nothing 09:59:46 <Alberth> just a lot of work 09:59:54 *** Celestar has joined #openttd 09:59:59 *** keoz has quit IRC 10:00:10 <Alberth> and probably you should avoid being too obvious cheating 10:00:16 <Alberth> if you like that meta-game 10:00:30 <gentz> So are you folks proposing hacking my client just so I don't have to manually upgrade trains? 10:00:36 <andythenorth> sounds like office space Alberth 10:00:47 <gentz> I like it 10:01:20 <gentz> I'll start counting number of days till I'm banned from everything 10:01:24 <Alberth> play at a more sane server is simpler 10:01:32 <andythenorth> plot of Office Space is something like exploiting integer maths to siphon a penny off from financial transactions 10:01:41 <andythenorth> only they do it wrong and get too much money 10:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something like that happened... 10:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it was in the news a few years ago 10:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> they implemented a system that banks use to transfer money back and forth, and cut off after like 4 decimal digits 10:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> was in place for years 10:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> earned a really really large sum of money 10:04:26 <Alberth> we should just have a single world-wide currency :p 10:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "love"? :p 10:04:46 <gentz> Who will print it? 10:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: even bitcoin split into two, because they couldn't quite agree 10:06:02 <Alberth> bitcoin is weird, make money by spending cpu time :p 10:06:05 <andythenorth> can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug" 10:06:07 <andythenorth> ? 10:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how is that more weird than making money by digging through dirt? 10:06:29 <andythenorth> bug tracker has many many ways of classifying, and very limited actual usefulness 10:06:35 <_dp_> o/ 10:06:40 <andythenorth> lo _dp_ 10:06:45 <_dp_> chat is so fast lately I can't even catch up xD 10:06:59 <Alberth> try #python for a change :p 10:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it's all andys fault 10:07:31 <Alberth> it's hard to follow one discussion there 10:07:47 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug" <- Yes, you can 10:07:58 <Alberth> andy, some "has patch attached" would be a useful notion, I think 10:08:07 <andythenorth> there is ‘with patch’ status 10:08:12 <andythenorth> which seems useful 10:08:52 <Alberth> eddi fair point :) 10:09:00 <_dp_> upgrading railtypes is such a huge pain that all our servers are set up in a way that it's never ever required 10:09:18 <_dp_> not sure if that patch will help any but would be nice to have an upgrades that actually work 10:09:18 <Alberth> gentz: ^ one sane server :) 10:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: pre-colonial american societies used seashells as currency 10:09:39 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 10:10:01 <gentz> Or you guys could stop breaking my heart and make me happy 10:10:04 <Alberth> likely we did something weird too in the past 10:10:05 <gentz> by merging it 10:10:12 <andythenorth> Samu’s patches are a classic of ‘but why?' 10:10:16 <gentz> And ignoring all protential bugs 10:10:30 <andythenorth> urgh 10:10:39 <andythenorth> what if it’s not a feature request, or a bug? 10:10:42 <andythenorth> but refactoring? 10:10:42 <Alberth> andy, sometimes he did shoot correctly 10:10:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: after WWII cigarettes were a common "currency" in destroyed europe 10:10:55 * NGC3982 hand a snail to Eddi|zuHause and expects service. 10:11:21 <Alberth> so smoking cost money, in a very real sense :p 10:11:22 <Wolf01> andythenorth: change "patch" to "codechange" 10:11:34 <andythenorth> I have no admin rights :) 10:11:44 <Wolf01> Meh 10:12:09 <Wolf01> Leave the ones which aren't fix or feature as patch 10:12:43 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: my grand grandfather lived in the middle of sweden during the war. he (like most of us up here) was not affected directly by the war, more than having to live beside the rails that reach to the top of norrland (northest of sweden). when we cleaned his house after his death we found german cigarettes in big quantities, and we think germans traveling trough sweden traded with him. 10:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: currencies are weird in general. there must be a) enough of it to facilitate trading, b) some difficulty to make more of, c) some difficulty to fake it 10:13:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: Samu seems like a stopped clock :) 10:13:25 <NGC3982> sed -i e/big/large/g 10:13:33 <andythenorth> right twice a day, but should it be kept? o_O 10:13:57 <NGC3982> sed -i e/grand g*/great g*/g 10:14:03 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 10:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that is probably not valid sed :p 10:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can ommit the g if there's only one instance (per line) 10:16:01 <NGC3982> haha, i just wrote something 10:16:17 <NGC3982> i usually have to man seds, since botching it has concequences up the pooper. 10:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i have no clue what e does 10:16:39 <NGC3982> its an important feature 10:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: yeah, don't use -i until you're sure it's right 10:16:52 <NGC3982> it aligns the galaxies in the local group to better focus the cpu energy 10:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: how does that affect my Akasha devices? 10:19:14 <andythenorth> how would a patch like this even get decided on yes / no? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5872 10:19:22 <andythenorth> it’s a binary decision, and we have no BDFL 10:19:24 <NGC3982> its funny. i had to google that. it sounded like some Yamaha bluetooth device 10:19:35 <NGC3982> it was indian cosmology. neat. :-p 10:20:05 <Wolf01> andythenorth: that patch is pure bullshit 10:20:09 <Alberth> andythenorth: I think it's invalid, but not sure 10:20:26 <Alberth> ie there is a time window where the map is being copied 10:20:36 <Alberth> there you can really not do anything 10:20:46 <Wolf01> Since threading autosave starts after copying the map, and copying the map means the game must be freezed 10:20:47 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: https://www.amazon.de/Oz-Orgonite-Akasha-Orgonit-Sockel-Kupferstangen/dp/B016Z3PO2E 10:20:55 <Alberth> outside that window, imho the sleep cursor should not happen 10:21:05 <Alberth> but I don't know for sure that is really the case 10:21:35 <andythenorth> so it can be approached as a technical question? 10:21:38 <Alberth> although it seems very likely that it is programmed like that 10:21:43 <andythenorth> rather than an aesthetic choice? 10:21:48 * andythenorth brb 10:22:32 *** gentz has quit IRC 10:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the Zzzz cursor appears during that copying step, and disappears once compressing/writing is forked 10:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not really sure 10:23:54 <Alberth> the same here, I never really checked it 10:24:28 <Alberth> there is an aesthetic choice of course, but everybody wants less Zzz cursor, so that's all aligned nicely :) 10:24:40 <_dp_> > <Alberth> it defeats an obstacle in the game 10:24:50 <_dp_> trees are only obstacles for complete newbies :p 10:25:00 <_dp_> *authority 10:25:08 <_dp_> most players just spam trees 10:25:19 <_dp_> and some like me even have hotkey for that 10:25:24 <_dp_> so it's pure annoyance 10:25:41 <Alberth> imho it's mostly a bug that trees work :p 10:26:00 <Alberth> but yeah, cities are a pain 10:26:12 <_dp_> though I've already enabled magic bulldozer on our servers so I'm totally fine with that never being implemented 10:26:13 <Alberth> not sure why the original game made it like that 10:26:26 <_dp_> it just means it will be harder for other servers to be as cool as ours :p 10:27:43 <Alberth> it pushes towards industrial cargo 10:28:04 <Alberth> which I guess is more interesting from a transport point of view 10:28:20 <_dp_> original was a sp game in an almost pre-internet era :p 10:28:35 <Alberth> why does your server aim for cities? 10:29:06 <_dp_> Alberth, because CB is pretty much the only complex game mode invented so far 10:29:08 <Alberth> even in sp, cities are a mess 10:29:29 <Alberth> it takes ages to get a track through it without cheating 10:30:05 <_dp_> Alberth, that's realism :p 10:30:51 <Alberth> sure, and I am fine with it 10:30:56 <_dp_> besides in openttd tracks aren't good for city growth so it's even more reason for it 10:31:38 <_dp_> but authorities are stupid, you can build an awesome road layout for city and it still hates you 10:31:49 <Alberth> industries are missing some capability or so? 10:32:18 <Alberth> authorities take a "see then believe" assumption :p 10:33:27 <_dp_> Alberth, nah, just stupid :p planting trees and active stations is not much of a help for city 10:34:15 <Alberth> wirthout moving into simcity, I can see designers wanted something simple fitting in the game 10:35:25 <Alberth> I usually deal with authorities by switching to some other area, and return in a decade 10:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the most notable thing about these akasha pillars are the user ratings below :p 10:36:00 <_dp_> Alberth, you can't switch to some other area in CB if that's your town that hates you :p 10:36:15 <Alberth> yeah 10:36:32 <Alberth> CB really doesn't fit well at all 10:36:46 <Alberth> yet everybody jumps at it 10:37:04 <_dp_> well, clearly ttd wasn't even designed for goal games 10:37:08 <_dp_> but it manages fine 10:37:13 <_dp_> *ever 10:37:42 <Alberth> I think up to a few years back, people made their own goals 10:37:59 <Alberth> and that may have happened all the time 10:38:05 <_dp_> btw wasn't original game considered to be an economic sim? 10:38:20 <_dp_> dunno what it's designers smoked but I fail to understand that xD 10:38:29 <Alberth> think it is 10:38:52 <Alberth> you see stocks playing a much bigger role in other train transport games 10:38:56 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it has money, and you can make more of it. how is that not an economic sim? 10:39:13 *** mescalito has joined #openttd 10:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, for me, stocks were always the worst part of railroad tycoon 10:39:37 <Alberth> chineese students learn it by playing openttd :p 10:40:33 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and minecraft has minecarts, does that make it a transport simulator? 10:40:38 <Alberth> likely because early american train companies were small and heavily into stocks 10:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i thought the point of minecraft was to build rollercoasters? 10:41:27 <Alberth> or logic circuits 10:42:09 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3, the stock market *was* the game 10:42:12 <andythenorth> it was awesome 10:42:13 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, if so that's pretty dull rollercoasters, you can't even go upside down :p 10:42:17 <andythenorth> the trains were completely automated 10:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i have heard of people who play GTA V with their kids, following all the traffic laws and stuff :p 10:44:16 <andythenorth> hmm 10:44:24 <andythenorth> so ottd is a bit lost eh 10:44:37 <Alberth> exploded in all directions? :) 10:45:00 <andythenorth> no Rubidium :) 10:45:05 <andythenorth> no-one in charge 10:45:08 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, there are all kinds of crazy people but I don't think gta was even advertised as a law-friendly game 10:45:31 <Eddi|zuHause> err, obviously not. :p 10:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but the fun part about open-world games is: you can ignore the parts that don't interest you and make your own game within the game 10:48:44 <_dp_> sure that's exactly what goal servers do ;) 10:48:52 <_dp_> but you don't call openttd an rts 10:49:06 <_dp_> yet ttd devs called it economy sim for some reason :p 10:52:04 <milek7> i don't think ttd is simulator of anything, just game ;p 10:52:46 * andythenorth wonders 10:52:55 <andythenorth> how about blanket policy: reject all patches? 10:53:28 <Alberth> how would you ever get new devs? 10:54:20 <Alberth> not to mention large game features 10:54:31 <andythenorth> not sure, thinking 10:55:00 <andythenorth> the whole patching culture is very transactional 10:55:13 <andythenorth> it doesn’t really seem to work in most projects I see it 10:55:19 <andythenorth> it’s without conversation 10:55:24 <andythenorth> it’s not collaborative 10:55:28 <andythenorth> it’s not social 10:55:28 <Alberth> it assumes alignment on intentions 10:55:35 <andythenorth> it’s very over-the-fence 10:55:45 <andythenorth> and it creates a lot of hostility 10:55:54 <andythenorth> needlessly afaict 10:56:07 <Alberth> in tightly coupled dev-groups, it works 10:56:22 <andythenorth> that assumes at least (1) group (2) tight coupling :) 10:56:26 <Alberth> but it assumes everybody does his/her part 10:56:45 <andythenorth> to use terrible metaphors 10:56:51 <Alberth> it does make such assumptions indeed 10:56:55 <andythenorth> if someone came and offered to paint my door blue 10:56:59 <andythenorth> that would be odd 10:57:10 <andythenorth> if they were then offended because I didn’t accept their suggestion 10:57:12 <andythenorth> that would be odder 10:57:33 <andythenorth> and if they turned up with the paint and everything, all paid for, that would be odd too 10:57:40 <andythenorth> it’s a crap metaphor but 10:59:00 <Alberth> quite close, in a sense 10:59:34 <andythenorth> I don’t think this has helped https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58835 10:59:36 <andythenorth> was my idea 10:59:40 <LordAro> andythenorth: like i said, the sooner the move to something with pull requests, the better 11:00:02 <andythenorth> LordAro: I think that improves the mechanic, but still leaves it transactional 11:00:05 <andythenorth> I am +1 btw 11:00:17 <LordAro> what's the issue with transactional? 11:00:26 <andythenorth> only works for limited cases 11:00:28 <Alberth> somewhat it helps, but it's the reverse idea, we tell what we want 11:00:45 <andythenorth> transactional works for easily verified bug fixes 11:00:46 <Alberth> which doesn't work, much like they tell us what they want 11:01:01 <andythenorth> I think we should unsticky / close that post 11:01:12 <andythenorth> also people *have* submitted requested patches…and got deafening silence 11:01:19 <Alberth> that holds for many stickies :p 11:01:20 <andythenorth> so it’s kind of rude 11:01:39 * andythenorth needs a forum mod 11:02:06 * andythenorth goes through the requested 11:02:21 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5192 <- dead since 2012, I would have already closed it, except it’s on the requested list 11:02:49 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5078 <- dead since 2012, I would have already closed it, except it’s on the requested list 11:04:17 <andythenorth> eh done :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2064 11:05:01 <_dp_> patches work better when there is a good feedback 11:05:09 <_dp_> having a dictator won't hurt either imo 11:05:11 <andythenorth> oh I’m not allowed to edit wiki 11:05:23 <andythenorth> we have nobody who wants to be dictator currently _dp_ :) 11:05:50 <Wolf01> I could be one, but you won't like it 11:06:06 <_dp_> same xD 11:06:29 <FLHerne> Perhaps we need an election to pick a dictator? 11:07:09 <_dp_> dictators usually aren't elected :p 11:07:33 <FLHerne> Have everyone explain their vision of the game, and then force people to choose the least worst 11:08:04 <LordAro> it'd need to be someone who can dedicate the time 11:08:11 <andythenorth> who’s the electorate? :P 11:08:21 <FLHerne> tt-forums, obviously 11:08:25 <andythenorth> hah 11:08:36 <andythenorth> I could be BDFL, but *I* wouldn’t like it 11:08:47 <FLHerne> Maybe accept (non-duplicate) votes on simuscape to minimise whining 11:08:52 <andythenorth> I do that all day long for money, with actual paying customers 11:09:05 <andythenorth> there is zero reward doing it in OpenTTD land 11:09:23 <andythenorth> and we lack an obsessive control freak like Linus or Guido or the Dwarf Fortress guy 11:10:50 <andythenorth> LordAro: can you edit wiki? https://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list 11:11:03 * andythenorth is bored of being banned from wikiw 11:11:03 <LordAro> nope 11:11:05 <Alberth> likely protected area 11:11:07 <LordAro> "page has been protected" 11:11:12 <andythenorth> ok 11:11:13 <Alberth> what should be done? 11:11:29 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2064 is done 11:11:34 <andythenorth> needs removed or marked as win 11:12:50 <Alberth> done 11:13:03 <andythenorth> thanks 11:13:08 <Alberth> yw 11:13:11 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6078 <- no discussion two years, not dead yet 11:14:12 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6242 <- I rejected that, we don’t need mouse hover on menu items, it’s faff 11:15:53 <Alberth> 6078 seems like a solution 11:16:00 <Alberth> window is a bit long 11:16:10 <Alberth> *wide 11:16:57 <andythenorth> it is eh 11:16:59 <Alberth> oh, 2 sentences ideas don't belong in the FS tracker 11:17:12 <andythenorth> o_O ? 11:17:56 <Alberth> "it would be nice to have $random major feature" 11:18:05 <Alberth> yes, it would 11:18:08 <andythenorth> where it’s obvious and known, it’s kind of junk 11:18:09 <milek7> is there any point in having feature requests without patches on FS? 11:18:19 <andythenorth> milek7: sometimes imho 11:18:29 <andythenorth> they work when they collate the discussion 11:18:35 <andythenorth> not so much for obvious crap 11:19:05 <andythenorth> I folded ‘RVs need to ovetake’ tickets into this one https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2738 11:19:12 <andythenorth> and now it actually has some utility 11:19:21 <Alberth> milek7: for complicated things like re-organizing the windows, you have a lot of discussion to get to a proper proposal 11:19:22 <andythenorth> 5 random RV over-taking wishes is no use 11:19:37 <andythenorth> 1 ticket with at least listed cases to consider…some use 11:19:43 <Alberth> I have that wish too 11:19:54 <Alberth> didn't bother making a ticket for it :p 11:20:13 <andythenorth> Alberth: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6078 is “Unify the appearance and position of "goto location" buttons.” in the wiki page 11:20:22 <andythenorth> you’re going to get bored of being a remote-edit bot thb 11:20:26 <Alberth> yeah 11:20:26 <andythenorth> tbh * 11:20:38 <Alberth> it's not done right? 11:20:43 <andythenorth> dunno 11:21:28 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5018 is in the list, but is rejected 11:21:35 <Alberth> 6078 is about lifetime 11:22:03 <andythenorth> ach sorry 11:22:36 <andythenorth> should be https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5981 11:22:54 <Alberth> we request an impossible request? 11:23:06 <andythenorth> could be reopened 11:23:11 <andythenorth> ship the text in the binary 11:23:15 <andythenorth> totally plausible 11:23:21 <andythenorth> but nobody has 11:23:34 <Wolf01> Mmmh, we should talk with adf88 about the combining/converting railtypes, as NRT needs that for road too 11:23:53 <Alberth> but is it at the wiki? 11:24:01 <Alberth> I'd be surprised, tbh 11:24:07 <andythenorth> it’s in the wiki 11:24:13 <andythenorth> "Readme/licence/changelog viewer for OpenTTD itself. (likely requires OS/packaging specific code)" 11:24:43 <Alberth> ok, so it already points at a solution 11:25:19 <andythenorth> either generate the readme, or add some lang strings from contents of readme 11:25:20 <andythenorth> but eh 11:25:26 <Alberth> 5018 is thus a duplicate? 11:25:49 <andythenorth> not sure of the history exactly 11:25:59 <Alberth> it has less information then the wiki 11:26:09 <andythenorth> in a better bug tracker, we’d create a public saved query listing the ‘wanted’ features 11:26:19 <andythenorth> thus circumventing wiki 11:26:28 <andythenorth> forums -> wiki -> FS -> graveyard 11:27:10 <andythenorth> I’m not crying about this, but I have definitely been in conversations here along lines of “but nobody even submitted anything in the wanted patches list" 11:27:38 <andythenorth> yet they have, and broadly not looked at 11:27:53 <andythenorth> not a winning strategy :) 11:28:06 <Alberth> 5981 I don't know, the wanted feature is not mine. I am willing to take a look, but spending 30 minutes just to see what it does is just stupid 11:28:31 <andythenorth> I have no interest in it 11:28:43 <andythenorth> I am dubious about touching most of the UI 11:28:54 <andythenorth> it’s well established, and mostly not broken 11:28:57 <Alberth> I don't think anyone is closely watching the junk coming in in the FS 11:29:10 <andythenorth> I dislike watching amateur UI designers at work :( 11:29:22 <andythenorth> and it’s part of my day, and it’s hard, so eh 11:29:30 <andythenorth> day job * 11:29:49 * andythenorth wonders how it is to be a proper programmer and watch andythenorth write code :P 11:30:12 <Alberth> I think everybody writes in his own way 11:30:24 <Alberth> the end-result is what counts 11:30:33 <Alberth> not the program itself 11:31:24 <andythenorth> different for UIs 11:31:40 <andythenorth> anyway no screenshot 11:31:50 <andythenorth> nobody will touch it 11:31:58 <Alberth> I would do it differently or quicker, but until you have found your current approach failing, I can't explain it 11:32:49 <andythenorth> that wiki page lacks a ‘Windows’ section 11:34:36 <andythenorth> omg, I found this also https://wiki.openttd.org/List_of_patches 11:34:44 <Alberth> sorry, but I have other things to do, and no rights to give you access 11:34:50 <andythenorth> nah it’s fine :) 11:35:14 * andythenorth should feed children lunch and stuff and stop doing this :P 11:35:21 *** Cadadadry has joined #openttd 11:35:35 <Alberth> users make the weirdest lists :P 11:35:44 <andythenorth> tempted to rewrite this though eh https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#I.27ve_fixed_a_bug_.2F_added_a_feature._How_can_I_submit_it_to_the_codebase.3F 11:35:50 <andythenorth> it’s basically not true 11:35:58 <andythenorth> kinda 11:36:09 <Cadadadry> h 11:36:12 <Cadadadry> hello 11:37:01 <andythenorth> hi 11:37:31 <andythenorth> hmm, is the git repo still a sync to an svn master? 11:37:41 <Cadadadry> looking for somebody to tell me some clues about ottd, pls 11:38:48 <Cadadadry> who knows the options included into the station window ? 11:39:23 <Alberth> you actually want a list? 11:39:43 <Alberth> I don't think anyone knows that from their head 11:40:08 <Alberth> perhaps tell what problem you're trying to solve? 11:40:57 <Alberth> andy, faq development is also protected? 11:41:02 <andythenorth> no 11:41:17 <andythenorth> I am considering editing it, but I don’t want to add alternative facts 11:41:24 <andythenorth> because alternative facts are lies 11:41:39 <Alberth> some presidents think otherwise :p 11:41:41 <Cadadadry> well, compared to original TTD, there are new settings into station window (like the little "+" switching to "-" and some new buttons as well 11:41:54 <andythenorth> did we switch to git as master yet? 11:41:57 <andythenorth> or svn still? 11:42:02 <Alberth> svn, afaik 11:42:05 <Cadadadry> wondering what they are made for ? 11:42:22 <andythenorth> I am dubious about all this svn advice in that page 11:42:41 <andythenorth> given that previous ruling method was hg for ~5 years or so 11:42:47 <andythenorth> and now there’s a debate about git 11:42:51 <Alberth> oh, in yellow at the right, you mean Cadadadry ? 11:43:12 <Cadadadry> yes :) 11:44:11 <Alberth> how nice, nobody added cdist to the wiki yet :p 11:44:35 <Alberth> it's cargo-dist 11:45:02 <andythenorth> I have half a page of notes about how cargo-dist actually works 11:45:03 <Alberth> do you have a station where trains load cargo for more than one station? 11:45:04 <andythenorth> for the wiki 11:45:07 <Cadadadry> is there some kind of detailed handbook about new features ? couldnt find it on wiki 11:45:09 <andythenorth> the current page is lies iirc 11:45:24 <Alberth> *the same cargo 11:45:25 <andythenorth> cargodist page https://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodist 11:45:36 <Alberth> quite non-readable 11:45:43 <Cadadadry> yes I do 11:46:01 <Alberth> open the station window there and click on the + 11:46:10 <Alberth> you get 2 lines under it 11:46:33 <Alberth> each line lists what part of the cargo at the top-line goes to where 11:46:34 <Cadadadry> it proposes me to "reserve" some goods, but how does that work ? 11:47:14 <Alberth> it's automatic (well, if you enable cargo-dist, that is) 11:47:30 <Alberth> it means the train currently in the station will get that 11:47:40 <Alberth> ie "resevred for that train" 11:48:28 <Alberth> if you stop the trains from going into the stations, you get an amount of cargo build up, distributed to all destinations that you have there 11:48:49 <Alberth> cargo-dist handles the distribution 11:49:16 <Cadadadry> so, the "+" is only an option for more info ? it's no setting ? 11:49:28 <Alberth> yes, just more info 11:49:40 <andythenorth> cargodist suffers from two misconceptions generally 11:49:41 <Alberth> cargo-dist settings are in the settings 11:50:12 <Cadadadry> hmm got to tell you my game is in french, so talking about general settings will be hard :D 11:50:37 <Cadadadry> thx for your help anyway ;) 11:51:19 <Cadadadry> btw I've got a Mumble server if you guys want to talk about the game on the mike 11:51:30 *** TrueBrain has quit IRC 11:51:36 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 11:53:02 <Cadadadry> I wish I could share a game with another player, but not a competitive one, just a coop... 11:53:18 <Cadadadry> Anybody interested ? 11:54:57 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 11:56:07 <andythenorth> Cadadadry: it’s quite rare that anybody joins an MP game from asking here :) 11:56:21 <andythenorth> you could try Coop though http://www.openttdcoop.org/ 11:56:33 <Cadadadry> cheers andy :) 11:58:37 <andythenorth> quak ? 12:00:20 <Cadadadry> looks like I'll have to reinstall TS3... 12:00:32 <Cadadadry> AFK 5 min... 12:00:32 *** keoz has joined #openttd 12:09:45 <andythenorth> adf88: are you +/-1 to closing this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5375 12:09:50 <andythenorth> issue is ancient 12:10:17 <adf88> hi, let me look... 12:11:26 <adf88> +1 12:11:42 <frosch123> hoi 12:12:17 <adf88> while there might be some issue in this area, it wasn't pointed out properly, the argumentation is false 12:12:44 <andythenorth> I should close, or you will? I’m happy to 12:14:49 <adf88> do the honors 12:15:06 <adf88> you're right that "Issue has aged, there is no sign that it's still relevant to anyone. " 12:17:40 <andythenorth> done 12:27:06 <andythenorth> sounds like nonsense to me https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5859 12:27:19 <andythenorth> we don’t need this kind of change 12:28:50 <frosch123> it's a code simplification wihtout change 12:28:55 <frosch123> if it is correct, it is good 12:29:47 <andythenorth> I closed it on this basis https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5859 12:29:50 <andythenorth> I can reopen 12:30:21 <frosch123> i would disagree, reopen :) 12:30:30 <frosch123> we need more people who can refactor code 12:31:10 <frosch123> i am sure this task got onto my todo list in 2014 and then got burried :) 12:31:10 <Alberth> juanjo is often right 12:31:38 <andythenorth> done 12:32:36 <Cadadadry> A big thank you to you all coders to have brought back TTD from the grave, and fixed a lot of bugs :) 12:33:23 <Cadadadry> I'm still exploring new content, but got to admit I feel lost :/ 12:34:28 <frosch123> no surprise, new user experience is hard :) 12:34:44 <Cadadadry> Does anyone remember "A-train" ? 12:34:49 *** Alberth has left #openttd 12:35:03 <frosch123> i heard about it, but never played it 12:35:05 <Alkel_U3> sure, I used to play that 12:35:13 <Cadadadry> :) 12:35:18 <andythenorth> testing patches is slow eh :) 12:35:24 <Cadadadry> you must be over 50 now ^^ 12:35:43 <frosch123> you can play games at age 10 12:35:48 <Cadadadry> true 12:35:59 <Alkel_U3> actually not even close, I've just always been into older games :-) 12:36:08 <Cadadadry> congrats :) 12:36:23 <Cadadadry> brb 12:36:38 <Alkel_U3> I had to reboot my win98 in tru DOS mode to run it, it wouldn't otherwise 12:38:12 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5951 is worth a look 12:38:29 <andythenorth> distant-join is hard to explain to 7 year olds 12:44:34 <Cadadadry> @andythenorth If find that idea is great (joining distant stations through a button) 12:47:16 <andythenorth> I would do it simpler 12:47:41 <andythenorth> I would invert the current behaviour, and simply show the list of nearby stations always on build 12:47:45 <andythenorth> unless ctrl is used 12:47:50 <andythenorth> works better on touch 12:48:19 <andythenorth> and makes the mechanic more obvious, at the cost of extra clicks 12:49:03 <Cadadadry> yes, that would help managing stations into big cities 12:50:21 <Cadadadry> I'm now on #openttdcoop TS server, but 0 user online :/ 12:51:13 <andythenorth> :P 12:54:13 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 12:57:35 <frosch123> "3390 files, 410k lines of code" <- factorio people seem to love short files 12:59:02 *** Flygon has quit IRC 12:59:22 <andythenorth> ach, which patch am I even testing now ;P 12:59:25 * andythenorth losing count 12:59:51 <frosch123> LordAro: what's your opinion on boost? i have the impression that many people turn their backs on it 13:01:39 <andythenorth> does openttd have a hotkey editor? 13:02:00 <frosch123> no, not sure whether i remember a partial patch for it 13:02:55 <andythenorth> FS someone reporting a crash with it 13:03:15 * andythenorth must be misreading 13:03:38 <Cadadadry> going back to game, cya all and thx for helping ;) 13:04:36 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6375 13:04:50 <andythenorth> I set SPACE as a hotkey, OpenTTD crashes on exit 13:05:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is hotkeys.cfg 13:05:48 <frosch123> you can edit the hotkeys outside of ottd 13:05:58 <andythenorth> I did that :) 13:07:54 <andythenorth> whatever else the patch does, it cause OpenTTD to crash on exit reliably 13:07:58 <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE 13:14:43 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 13:18:07 <FLHerne> Useful idea, though 13:20:18 <andythenorth> so many useful ideas 13:20:49 <andythenorth> they are probably 30:1 on useful implementations 13:21:33 *** Gja has joined #openttd 13:21:49 *** Gja has quit IRC 13:22:03 <andythenorth> maybe 10:1 13:22:08 <andythenorth> there are ~90 patches on FS 13:22:17 <andythenorth> probably 10 are valid 13:23:49 <Wolf01> Today is a BAD day, I don't feel well (because of the weather change), a friend's HDD reached 161°C and died :| 13:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> how did he manage that? 13:24:29 <Wolf01> Dunno 13:25:03 <Wolf01> Could be SMART failure to report a wrong temp 13:25:25 <Alkel_U3> is that still _that_ friend? 13:25:32 <Wolf01> No, another one 13:25:39 <Wolf01> I melted one HDD too, tbh 13:26:04 <Wolf01> The one fill with holiday and family photos 13:26:07 <Wolf01> *filled 13:26:50 <Alkel_U3> "Data you don't have at least at two places are data you don't care about." --old wisdom 13:27:03 <Alkel_U3> I learned it the hard way, too :( 13:27:06 <Wolf01> I have 3 backups now 13:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i invested into 3 HDDs to make a RAID5 13:27:42 <Wolf01> Still a problem if the entire machine gets destroyed 13:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, but then i probably have bigger problems 13:28:38 <Wolf01> I have data in pc which backups in nas, which backups again the most important data to another separate HDD 13:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you should have backups in another location, in that case 13:29:36 <Wolf01> Yup, mine are in 2 different and distant rooms of the house 13:29:55 <Wolf01> Problem is when... I get flooded :E 13:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> at work we have a raid10 across different houses 13:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> or raid15, not sure 13:31:19 <Wolf01> I read "we have a radio across different houses" 13:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you are too 1337 for this world 13:32:33 <Wolf01> I'm you, but italian 13:37:09 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 13:39:16 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 13:44:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: ever tried writing an OpenTTD roadmap? o_O 13:44:48 * andythenorth is obliged to write annual product roadmaps :| 13:46:41 <Wolf01> We had roadmaps up to 1.3 iirc, I don't know if they were respected btw 13:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they kinda devolved into wishlists 13:50:37 <frosch123> easy: 1. make c++11 capable farm, 2a. port to harfbuzz, 2b. port to sdl2, 2c. replace need for custom containers with c++11 emplace stuff, 3b. add os cursor support, 4b add font gui, 3c replace global pools with something that allows independent instances of pools, 4c make newgrf stuff run independent instances, 5c1 make newgrf preview, 5c2 run independen newgrf callbacks in paralle, 2d split drawing loop into parts accessing game data and 13:50:38 <frosch123> stuff accessing sprites with a pipeline inbetween, 3d make drawing multi-threaded 13:51:00 <frosch123> how much of that is on *any* other roadmap? :p 13:51:07 <andythenorth> not one I’ve seen 13:51:30 <frosch123> see, that's the problem, the trick is to align intentions 13:51:36 <andythenorth> isn’t it 13:51:53 <LordAro> frosch123: boost is... tricky. lots of very nice things in it, but it's a very big dependency 13:51:59 <frosch123> at least we seem to have 3 people interested in c++11 stuff, but that still doesn't tell whether they will disagree in details :) 13:52:03 <andythenorth> I am quite prepared to keep reading FS, testing patches, and saying no to people 13:52:12 <LordAro> i'm of the opinion that you need to go "all in" with it or not at all 13:52:17 <andythenorth> but the actual goals vary depending who is in this channel at the time :P 13:52:28 <andythenorth> and there’s no BDFL or active project leader 13:52:33 <LordAro> and i think it'd be quite tricky to go "all in" with it in ottd's current state 13:52:53 <frosch123> LordAro: i was not asking in ottd context 13:53:05 <andythenorth> the goals here are pretty good https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F 13:53:08 <LordAro> frosch123: do let me know if there's anything i can help with wrt compile farm/c++11/libraries tho 13:53:09 <frosch123> i just read fff, and found reaccuring themes from other sourcers 13:53:16 <LordAro> frosch123: ah yeah 13:53:19 <andythenorth> but “improve the user interface” leaves a gap as wide as a barn door for patchers 13:53:29 <LordAro> frosch123: yeah, that fff echoed my opinion of it quite we 13:53:31 <LordAro> well* 13:55:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: sometimes i think i am too old. about everything has been suggested and discussed before, i have settled my opinion on most, and i am tired of repeating the arguments :) 13:55:35 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 13:57:01 <frosch123> LordAro: btw. compile farm for linux and osx seems to be about done, i have no information on the status for win 13:57:48 <andythenorth> I was reading a python module ticket edit war this week 13:58:03 <andythenorth> prevailing rule is, module maintainer’s word is law, unless Guido over-rides them 13:58:13 <andythenorth> or they piss off enough people and rage quit 13:59:19 <Wolf01> Roadmap for 1.8: improve the game 13:59:40 <andythenorth> :P 13:59:47 <Wolf01> ...fix bugs, add new bugs, feature new features 13:59:50 <andythenorth> there’s nobody who can be BDFL 14:00:04 <andythenorth> maybe we split up areas of concern, and find somebody whose word is law for each 14:00:22 <andythenorth> e.g. I am massively -1 to adding any further complexity to UI 14:00:38 <andythenorth> and mostly -1 to changing anything that is well established, without very good reason 14:00:39 <Wolf01> Remove the UI? 14:00:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, ottd has become very feature driven, in my imagination it was more refactoring driven in the past; i prefer the latter 14:01:05 <andythenorth> that is interesting 14:01:27 <frosch123> but well, may also be false memories :) 14:01:31 <andythenorth> maybe 14:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> c++ move, gui rewrite, "new map array", ... 14:02:22 <frosch123> competing pool rewrites :) 14:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of refactoring going on, with the intention to make more features 14:02:32 <andythenorth> for me, the best commits are the very small UI tweaks 14:02:49 <andythenorth> the most interesting problems are the extension of the content APIs 14:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there is lots of refactoring to be found in cirdans branch 14:03:02 <andythenorth> refactoring I can’t play, I’m not a good enough programmer :P 14:05:06 <peter1138> step 1) play minecraft 14:05:50 <Wolf01> andythenorth: refactoring is like with lego, you do and undo trying to keep the functions working until you are satisfied 14:07:15 <andythenorth> I refactor newgrf continuously 14:07:20 <andythenorth> but not so much C++ :P 14:10:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: w.r.t actually doing something, not just words :) https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#ToDo_list 14:10:51 <andythenorth> how much of that is nice-to-have ponies? 14:14:34 <LordAro> frosch123: about done? 14:18:02 <frosch123> LordAro: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/newfarm/ <- andy confirmed the osx binaries working 14:19:28 <andythenorth> hmm 14:19:40 <andythenorth> so this farm is reprocible, e.g. I could built it locally? 14:19:47 <andythenorth> reproducible * 14:20:01 <frosch123> the win part won't :) 14:20:21 <andythenorth> ha 14:20:28 * andythenorth thinking about patch packs etc 14:20:47 <frosch123> frosch123: i wondered whether we should jgrpp on frontpage 14:20:56 <frosch123> download A for stability, download B for features 14:21:18 <andythenorth> I think officially linked patchpacks is a thing 14:21:25 <frosch123> it all depends on how easy LordAro's new site is to use 14:21:26 <andythenorth> I think the description…could use work :P 14:21:37 <frosch123> initially i hoped gitlab would solve it :) 14:21:41 <andythenorth> I dispute that version A lacks features 14:21:57 <andythenorth> download B for dubious features :P 14:22:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, i am all fine with trunk doing refactoring, and someone else adding all the features 14:22:56 <andythenorth> +0.5 :P 14:23:12 <andythenorth> I would be happier with trunk refactoring AND adding more content APIs 14:24:17 <frosch123> i am fine with newgrf, but we have noone interested in ai/gs 14:25:05 <frosch123> about my only input in ai/gs was kicking people when they named stuff differently in different places 14:26:19 <andythenorth> did TB do NoGo? 14:26:28 <andythenorth> one day it just...appeared 14:26:37 <frosch123> tb did the base of both noai and nogo 14:26:45 <frosch123> yexo did the details of noai 14:27:09 <andythenorth> Zuu is awol? o_O 14:27:11 <frosch123> and zuu/albert/rb did the details of nogo 14:27:19 <andythenorth> ENoMaintainer 14:28:07 <andythenorth> so you can do core and newgrf 14:28:22 <andythenorth> I’ll just say ‘no’ to everything about UI, so I don’t even need commit rights to be maintainer 14:28:33 <andythenorth> alberth can review your stuff 14:28:42 <andythenorth> adf8* has his own thing going 14:28:57 <andythenorth> and Eddi|zuHause can be the official maintainer of the platonic ideal spec :) 14:29:10 <andythenorth> all neat and tidy, solved 14:29:22 <frosch123> well, i miss smatz :) 14:29:45 <andythenorth> I miss dalestan :P 14:29:50 <andythenorth> oh I missed peter1138 14:30:05 <andythenorth> peter1138 can maintain a list of random patches that he declares not good enough :) 14:30:32 <andythenorth> whilst also asking us why we make everything so complicated 14:30:39 <andythenorth> I’m 99% certain I employ a clone of peter1138 14:33:00 <peter1138> no use employing me 14:38:18 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 14:38:36 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 14:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no use employing me either, but i found someone who does :p 14:45:12 <andythenorth> bbl 14:45:14 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 14:49:40 *** adf88 has quit IRC 14:52:06 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 15:13:46 *** FrenkyPohodar has joined #openttd 15:21:17 <FrenkyPohodar> Hello. Would anyone be able to help with the openttd server? On win7 I released it as a didikate server, the ports are redirected and open. the rver seems to be running but I'm not able to connect to it, it seems like it's on-line it's server Cz / SK_Budujeme_mesta / City_Buildings, 5000pop (1921-2050) I got something wrong, but what? Thank you in advance for your advice and help. 15:22:10 <frosch123> http://www.openttd.org/en/servers <- it's listed there 15:22:14 <frosch123> so the problem is with the client 15:22:37 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 15:22:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 15:27:09 *** FrenkyPohodar has quit IRC 15:53:53 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:33:45 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:43:59 <andythenorth> is it just me? 16:45:06 *** cHawk has quit IRC 16:50:25 <Wolf01> I can't understand for how much time I slept, is it friday yet? 16:51:42 <andythenorth> kinda 16:52:46 <andythenorth> so is ‘rage’ the natural destiny of all people who handle feature requests? o_O 16:55:46 <Wolf01> Nah 16:56:07 <Wolf01> You are taking the tasks too much seriously 16:57:03 <andythenorth> would you go for more lulz? 16:58:02 <peter1138> didikate? heh 16:59:42 <andythenorth> is ‘so what’ a valid response here? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6121 17:02:51 <peter1138> heh 17:03:28 <andythenorth> things not a goal #238: pissing around with the vehicle payments 17:04:34 *** Gja has joined #openttd 17:05:07 <Alberth> imho he has somewhat of a point, trouble is that changing the payment alone is likely to cause havoc in other areas 17:06:18 <Alberth> ideally you'd fix it by changing the vehicle speed, I think 17:06:42 <_dp_> that patch does something weird, that shouldn't be required to just change profit formula 17:06:47 <peter1138> yeah but that causes havoc in other areas 17:06:49 <Alberth> that might break a lot of newgrfs? 17:06:56 <peter1138> yeah 17:07:14 <peter1138> the 28/32 pixel length difference is related 17:07:15 <Alberth> like "all newgrf"s :p 17:07:33 <peter1138> if you fix the speed issue, 28 becomes the correct length after all 17:07:34 <Alberth> yeah, you'd want that fixed too then 17:07:46 <peter1138> so every set that uses 32 would be messed up 17:07:51 <peter1138> dbsetxl would be fine 17:07:53 <peter1138> and that's about it :p 17:08:01 <Alberth> haha :) 17:09:13 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 17:09:25 <frosch123> peter1138: trains are 29 :p 17:09:31 <_dp_> Alberth, why change vehicle speeds? that won't help with manhattan distance payment 17:09:38 <peter1138> i thought it might be one of the two 17:09:40 <peter1138> either way :p 17:09:42 * andythenorth is looking for something to close, to get to 350 FS 17:09:49 <andythenorth> also…trying to learn what the goals are :P 17:09:59 <andythenorth> fools errand 17:10:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think the goal was to have fun 17:10:38 <_dp_> it may make sense to change diagonal lenght to match euclidean but it still does nothing wrt payment "fairness" 17:12:03 <peter1138> i don't understand the problem 17:12:10 <peter1138> "earning capacity increased" for trains? 17:12:22 <peter1138> isn't it increased for trains, planes and ships? 17:12:31 <peter1138> RVs lose out i guess 17:12:43 <peter1138> and then surely "that's just how it is" 17:12:46 <_dp_> you either use road metric aka manhattan which breaks trains or use train/plane distance which is not fair for rvs 17:13:18 <andythenorth> peter1138: it is how it is 17:13:20 <andythenorth> close :P 17:13:58 * andythenorth learning about newgrf airports 17:14:20 <peter1138> are they a thing? 17:14:32 <andythenorth> slightly 17:14:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think there was a majority for user-built airports 17:14:55 <andythenorth> weren’t there multiple failed patches, with extra drama? 17:15:00 <andythenorth> I think I missed it 17:15:18 <andythenorth> apparently We Are All Very Bad People, it’s somewhere on the internet 17:15:42 * peter1138 ponders razing this village 17:15:45 <peter1138> ah yes 17:15:47 <peter1138> we are 17:15:48 <andythenorth> anyway, this one actually pisses me off https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5968 17:15:49 <peter1138> for some reason 17:16:05 <andythenorth> there’s all this airport bollocks in the game 17:16:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/tba6907.png <- before i quit forums, i think there was a more modern patch for that 17:16:40 <andythenorth> how the hell does that ever work? 17:16:46 <andythenorth> newgrf state machines? 17:16:53 <peter1138> heh 17:17:01 <frosch123> no, either rv logic or pbs logic 17:17:03 <peter1138> what's wrong with more than one airport in a town? 17:17:05 <frosch123> well, or ship logic :p 17:17:39 <andythenorth> peter1138: some kind of bullshit in MP with griefing 17:17:53 <andythenorth> FS is making me wish MP would just go away 17:18:00 <andythenorth> Other People are A Problem 17:18:16 <andythenorth> or he’s chosen bad AIs 17:18:23 <andythenorth> that spam towns with airports 17:18:31 <andythenorth> like err…choose a different AI? 17:18:37 <andythenorth> "Oh noes there must be a setting" 17:18:58 * andythenorth grumbles 17:21:33 *** TrueBrain-Bot has joined #openttd 17:22:05 <peter1138> oops just spent 34 xp levels enchanting something with no effect :( 17:22:56 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd 17:23:10 <andythenorth> I’m not really pissed off at Milsa :P 17:23:18 <andythenorth> I’m pissed off with all the airport bollocks :) 17:23:29 <andythenorth> limits, noise levels, faceted shit 17:23:55 <andythenorth> town var: number of airports 17:24:12 <andythenorth> airport or town cb: player tries to construct airport 17:24:19 <andythenorth> airport var: owner company 17:24:25 <andythenorth> return: allow, disallow 17:24:27 <andythenorth> job done 17:24:34 <andythenorth> delete: limits per town, noise limit 17:24:41 <andythenorth> [message ends] 17:25:03 <_dp_> andythenorth, and noone will ever use that coz newgrf 17:25:10 <andythenorth> [shrug] 17:25:20 <andythenorth> but all the feature requests can be closed 17:25:38 <_dp_> andythenorth, won't stop people from opening new ones :p 17:25:45 <andythenorth> that’s fine 17:25:55 <andythenorth> the game isn’t to stop feature requests 17:26:03 <andythenorth> the game is to close them having already won 17:26:24 <andythenorth> game / metagame 17:26:58 <_dp_> did I mention including newgrfs in savegame already? 17:27:08 <andythenorth> “anticipating user need”, can do consulting on that at €1000/day 17:27:23 <andythenorth> newgrfs can’t be included in savegame for [reasons] 17:27:31 <andythenorth> copyright bollocks probably 17:27:45 <andythenorth> yeah, no redistribution of some people’s grfs 17:28:04 <frosch123> you can certainly streamline the load process 17:28:23 <andythenorth> I never submit crash reports because I always have non-bananas grfs :P 17:28:28 <frosch123> like "you can't load this!" -> "would you like to download missing stuff?" 17:28:38 <_dp_> well, I own my negrfs so I'd like my servers to include them... 17:29:13 <frosch123> _dp_: include 256mb of 32bpp sprites in the samegame? :p 17:29:14 <_dp_> Problem with negrfs currents is that it's never worth to use them just for configuration 17:29:29 <andythenorth> this is ‘bug in newgrfs’? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6312 17:29:40 <_dp_> frosch123, I don't have sprites in newgrfs, just some configuration bullshit :p 17:29:56 <andythenorth> newgrf planes shouldn’t use range, it’s a bug 17:31:40 <_dp_> btw, we currently do some server-side limiting on airports 17:31:53 <_dp_> it's max airports per company though, not per town 17:32:03 <frosch123> is there a difference between limiting airports and limitnig aircraft? 17:32:30 <_dp_> frosch123, ... 17:32:36 <andythenorth> on the face of it…yes...? 17:32:48 <frosch123> wrt. restricting gameplay 17:33:02 <_dp_> we have 5 airport limit and 100 aircrafts 17:33:25 <frosch123> hmm, i guess it depends on the map scaling 17:33:29 <andythenorth> can I actually close a FS saying aircraft range is a bug? 17:33:31 <ST2> we merged this: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=70691 to apply some limitations 17:33:40 <ST2> maybe it's ugly.. but works xD 17:33:41 <frosch123> on a 1Mx1M map, you can have 10k planes with just 2 airports 17:34:14 <andythenorth> not all newgrf additions have been wise 17:34:42 <frosch123> like nrt :) 17:34:50 <andythenorth> not added yet :P 17:35:13 * andythenorth kills the kittens and closes the FS 17:35:55 <_dp_> limiting number of airports limits amount of resources that can be acquired with them (unlike limiting planes) 17:36:43 <frosch123> i would expect the reverse 17:36:53 <_dp_> in particular valuables, with 5 airports you can only connect 5 banks, not every bank on the map and cover town val requirements for eternity 17:37:11 <andythenorth> why not just disable planes? 17:37:24 <frosch123> ah, it's about "deliver some" goals 17:37:47 <frosch123> true, you can build a single plane which circles through 50 airports 17:37:49 <andythenorth> there’s GS for the goals? 17:38:17 <frosch123> i remember andy delivering farm supplies by plane 17:38:18 <andythenorth> ach, GS can’t have callbacks andythenorth is an idiot again :( 17:38:23 <frosch123> so i welcome the airport limit :) 17:38:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: tractors by plane 17:38:37 <andythenorth> and chainsaws 17:38:54 <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfz1YrpMbBg 17:39:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, tile-based airports would solve everything 17:39:39 <frosch123> you can make the taxiway and runway shared like roads 17:39:49 <frosch123> and have each company have their terminal 17:39:51 <andythenorth> with player owned terminals? 17:39:53 <_dp_> I prefer to balance planes instead of disabling them, more variety is good, adds more options for the game tactics 17:40:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: that’s crazy talk :P 17:40:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: only the terminal has a catchment area 17:40:25 <andythenorth> is there actually a viable implementation? o_O 17:40:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: why, i had a patch against r6907 17:40:35 <andythenorth> only 15k revisions old 17:40:43 <andythenorth> 21k actually 17:40:52 <frosch123> there have been at least 2 similar attemps on the forums 17:41:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: also, all the plane limit stuff is to prevent them being overpowered; but that completely ruins the fun in using them 17:41:59 <andythenorth> doesn’t it 17:42:04 <_dp_> having a terminal wouldn't hurt train/rv stations either to solve all that joining-catchement nonsense 17:42:05 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:42:05 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:42:06 <andythenorth> so we have 17:42:16 <andythenorth> (1) town limit of airport by count 17:42:21 <andythenorth> (2) town limit by noise 17:42:35 <andythenorth> (3) irritating date restrictions on airport construction 17:42:37 <andythenorth> (4) plane range 17:42:41 <andythenorth> (5) plane speed factor 17:42:51 <andythenorth> and still planes aren’t fixed? 17:42:58 <andythenorth> what did we learn? 17:43:02 <frosch123> (6) infra cost 17:43:07 <frosch123> *maint 17:43:13 <andythenorth> oh that too 17:43:14 <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46h7oP9eiBk 17:43:22 <_dp_> andythenorth, not enough settings :p 17:43:46 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes 17:44:31 <_dp_> from economy viewpoint only plane speed matters and even 1/4 is not enough to nerf planes 17:45:05 <peter1138> "even 1/4" 1/4 is the standard 17:45:15 <andythenorth> I don’t understand this balancing bollocks? 17:45:21 <andythenorth> is balancing a goal? 17:45:33 <peter1138> apparently some people think the game is not about making a pretty railway layout :p 17:45:34 <frosch123> not for me :) 17:45:37 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's a goal for goal servers :p 17:45:42 <andythenorth> if all transport types must balance, wtf do we bother having all these transport types? 17:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27911 /trunk/src/lang (hebrew.txt korean.txt) (2017-09-02 19:45:39 +0200 ) 17:45:47 <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints: 17:45:47 <andythenorth> it’s fricking stupid 17:45:48 <DorpsGek> korean: 1 change by telk5093 17:45:49 <DorpsGek> hebrew: 4 changes by dnd_man 17:46:28 <andythenorth> frosch123: can I make it official? Balancing is not a goal? 17:46:30 <andythenorth> :P 17:46:48 <frosch123> it's a rewording of "do not change the game mechanics", right? 17:47:06 <andythenorth> town growth, ratings, etc? 17:47:15 <_dp_> just add "mp is not a goal" :p 17:47:16 <andythenorth> original industry production, economy 17:47:49 <andythenorth> how does minecraft do goal servers? 17:48:12 <_dp_> andythenorth, command blocks 17:48:39 <_dp_> and adventure mode or whatever is it called 17:48:57 <andythenorth> can’t find any goal servers for minecraft so far 17:49:35 <_dp_> andythenorth, idk about "goal" goal, put there are plenty of competitive ones 17:49:42 <_dp_> like missile wars 17:51:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: if I say it a few times, it becomes true? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6121 17:51:35 <_dp_> oh, there is also builtin scoreboard in minecraft 17:52:20 <_dp_> andythenorth, isn't NRT changing game mechanics btw? ;) 17:52:36 <andythenorth> no 17:52:42 <andythenorth> [wavey hands] 17:52:54 <andythenorth> depends if we include the new icon for light rail :P 17:53:03 <andythenorth> nothing changes though 17:53:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29683 17:53:29 <_dp_> andythenorth, how about roads that towns can't grow on? 17:53:50 <andythenorth> how about them? :) 17:53:55 <andythenorth> sounds like an idea 17:54:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: do I need to read all 14 pages? o_O 17:54:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, well, in current game mechanics town can grow on any road :p 17:54:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: actually p14 seems to be enough 17:54:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe you can extract what people think about balancing 17:54:53 <andythenorth> TL;DR people are wrong? 17:54:57 <frosch123> by comparing what was suggested 10 years ago with what is suggested today 17:55:14 <andythenorth> ok 17:55:17 <andythenorth> I’ll read it 17:55:36 <andythenorth> unfortunately, like a politician, I already have my conclusion :( 17:55:41 <andythenorth> so I’ll just cherry pick evidence 17:56:10 <andythenorth> balancing is nonsense, newgrf can solve most problems, end of message 17:56:19 * andythenorth reading 17:56:28 <frosch123> too bad the pdf is not accessible 17:56:41 <andythenorth> I probably shouldn’t post all my notes here as I go eh :P 17:56:47 <_dp_> newgrfs are such a huge problem by themselves they hardly can solve anything :p 17:57:18 <andythenorth> I don’t think you can sustain that argument _dp_ :) 17:58:34 <_dp_> how many people was it who loaded any grf compared to game downloads? :p 18:00:00 <andythenorth> propose an alternative to modifying the game with content? 18:00:20 <andythenorth> every single foamer has to submit a patch to get their special train in the game? 18:00:28 <andythenorth> and we have a setting for every single one? 18:00:58 <andythenorth> frosch123: see, sense https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=542704#p542704 18:01:29 <frosch123> :) 18:01:46 <frosch123> can we organise a shooting between _dp_, andy, pikka and dalestan? 18:02:57 <andythenorth> frosch123: can add richk67 to team _dp_ https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=542852#p542852 18:03:22 <frosch123> i do not know dalestan's opinion on aircraft range 18:03:41 <frosch123> dalestan coded planeset, so he probably would have one 18:03:47 <andythenorth> “don’t add newgrf features that break orders”? 18:03:52 <andythenorth> like the refit cb also 18:04:15 <frosch123> probably "newgrf parameter: let the user pick their destiny" 18:05:17 <andythenorth> reading this thread is painful :( 18:05:22 <andythenorth> it’s like a wall of wrong :( 18:06:31 *** keoz has quit IRC 18:06:47 <andythenorth> “Well, I'd say the easiest solution to that problem is to…” is always followed by 18:07:00 <andythenorth> “…add a boatload more complexity to post-hoc make my crap pet idea work" 18:07:15 <andythenorth> The easiest solution would be to Drop The Crap Idea 18:07:28 <andythenorth> where’s V453000 when he’s needed? 18:07:31 <andythenorth> @summon V453000 18:07:32 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk 18:09:00 <andythenorth> DJ Nekkid was doing really well here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=543700#p543700 18:09:04 <andythenorth> until ‘subways’ 18:10:43 <frosch123> how does subways make it into the balance topic? 18:11:00 <andythenorth> the whole thing is endless ponies 18:11:13 <frosch123> yep :) 18:11:17 <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20sS5NxsSJM 18:11:20 <frosch123> that's why i linked it :p 18:11:34 <andythenorth> I would like to print this out very large, and frame it https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=559479#p559479 18:11:38 <andythenorth> then take a picture of it 18:11:49 <andythenorth> and post the picture at the top of every single feature request page 18:12:16 <_dp_> at this point I feel and hope that modding machinky will be a lot more easier than bothering with openttd 18:13:15 <frosch123> depends how many bugs it copies from ottd 18:13:23 <frosch123> factorio managed to copy quite a number 18:14:22 <Alberth> modding is easy, getting agreement between all players is the puzzle :p 18:15:45 <andythenorth> content-based modding eliminates the need for agreement 18:17:38 <andythenorth> Wolf01: o_O ? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=566129#p566129 18:18:29 <andythenorth> idiocy or elegant troll? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=577818#p577818 18:19:26 <frosch123> the follow-up post takes it serious 18:19:36 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 18:20:12 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 18:21:28 <andythenorth> meanwhiel 18:21:32 <andythenorth> meanwhile * https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1212 18:21:55 <andythenorth> in or out? 18:23:45 <frosch123> too many graphic issues 18:23:52 <frosch123> it's like crossing bridges 18:24:01 <frosch123> implementing is easy, but it will glitch like hell 18:24:13 <andythenorth> out 18:24:26 <andythenorth> there’s a real one being planned in Norway, but eh 18:29:27 <andythenorth> closed 18:29:39 <andythenorth> I really like this idea https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2445 18:29:50 <andythenorth> but I think it’s much more complex than it sounds 18:30:52 <andythenorth> also it could be done in newgrf, but only if magic bulldozer is enabled 18:33:42 *** Cadadadry has quit IRC 18:35:06 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I love the style of engine on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=53&v=qsXzZ_5JpcM 18:35:16 <andythenorth> single stud pistons 18:37:37 <andythenorth> FFS, the 7 year old’s favourite thing to do in the game is grow cities :( 18:37:41 <andythenorth> it’s like a plague 18:38:32 <frosch123> the most exciting thing for me at that age was the concorde 18:39:35 <_dp_> how is 2445 different from just funding? 18:40:10 <frosch123> and the biggest disappointment was that the airports were the bottleneck 18:40:55 <frosch123> _dp_: 2445 limits it to an area, like 128x128, which is significant when playing on 1Mx1M map 18:41:33 <andythenorth> it’s a great idea 18:41:40 <andythenorth> I’m going to add it to FIRS 18:41:53 <frosch123> how? 18:43:08 <_dp_> frosch123, ah, yeah, somewhat interesting 18:43:20 <_dp_> that fail chance is no go though for competitive servers 18:44:20 <_dp_> or should I say for competitive play 18:44:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: build a survey camp industry (very cheap) 18:44:51 <_dp_> since people compete on vanilla servers all the time 18:44:56 <andythenorth> then force primaries to locate near that if there is one on the map 18:45:12 <andythenorth> survey camp counts industries, and closes once a new primary has been built 18:45:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: make the camp close after 6 months 18:45:21 <andythenorth> (a) it’s a terrible BAD FEATURE 18:45:33 <andythenorth> (b) I can’t count all the industries, unless maybe I bitstuff enough 18:45:41 <andythenorth> (c) it’s annoying having to wait for closure :P 18:45:51 <frosch123> (d) users won't understand it 18:45:56 <andythenorth> (e) waste of time 18:47:25 <andythenorth> strikes me that doing it in game would work like: 18:47:33 <andythenorth> 1. select prospect 18:47:37 <andythenorth> 2. click on a tile 18:47:49 <andythenorth> 3. openttd tries to build within n tiles of that x,y 18:48:28 <frosch123> or a) select area b) spawn in area with probability depending on area size 18:49:39 <frosch123> though that's likely hard to explain 18:49:56 <andythenorth> seems like TMFTLB 18:50:04 <andythenorth> but it is annoying 18:50:19 <andythenorth> I like prospecting, but not so much on a large map 18:50:27 <andythenorth> it works great on 256x256 or smaller 18:50:33 <frosch123> well, i only used prospecing after connecting everything 18:50:38 <frosch123> so it's behaviour is quite fine 18:50:47 <frosch123> it just fails on stupid sized maps, but they fail anyway 18:51:33 <frosch123> it's just a mechanism to make the game continue 18:51:43 <frosch123> not to play industry giant 18:51:49 <andythenorth> I’m closing 18:52:00 <andythenorth> it _could_ be at least trialled in newgrf if wanted 18:58:35 *** Gja has quit IRC 18:59:44 *** y2000rtc has joined #openttd 19:02:12 <y2000rtc> Hi there, it's me Zdenek again. I don't want to waste your time. I would like to ask you for help. I play TTD (OpenTTD) since when I was child and right now I want to edit two grf files. 1) edit grf of rail for to have rail with different speed but with the same graphics. Old one. There is many graphics of rails due to speed. I want to use different speed but with the same design. 19:02:32 <y2000rtc> What do you say for that. Someone who will find any time for me? 19:05:26 <Alkel_U3> if there is no source available, you'll likely need to run that grf through grfcodec to get NFO and learn to read and edit that. 19:06:00 <Alkel_U3> better yet, try contacting the author of that grf 19:06:50 <Alberth> there are two approaches, learn NML, and make a grf yourself, or decompile a grf to NFO, change the graphics, and re-assemble (and be sure to change the grfid as well toa avoid clashes) 19:07:04 <y2000rtc> I already tried to contact author. Without success. :((( 19:07:30 <y2000rtc> Ok Alkel, where and how to make steps which you mentioned please? 19:07:34 <Alberth> former is by far the cleanest 19:07:43 <Alkel_U3> maybe it would be easier to just learn NML and code it from scratch, NFO is very not human-friendly :-) (basically hex editing) 19:07:46 <andythenorth> fork Termite 19:08:04 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/termite/repository 19:08:14 <andythenorth> Termite uses baseset graphics for RAIL 19:08:17 <andythenorth> and ELRL 19:08:27 <andythenorth> fork Termite, add more railtypes, but with speed limits 19:08:44 <andythenorth> has to be built with Make though 19:08:49 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: ^^^^ 19:09:15 <y2000rtc> Gentlemen, I'm really novice. So, I have to download some tool for decompiling of GRF file. After that I have to edit something and last step is to compile again. 19:09:23 <andythenorth> that is one route 19:09:30 <andythenorth> or find a grf that has src, and clone it 19:09:36 <y2000rtc> fork Termite is what? 19:09:37 <andythenorth> edit the src, compile it 19:09:41 <y2000rtc> Any SW? 19:09:50 <andythenorth> ‘fork’ just means ‘clone it and make your own version' 19:10:05 <andythenorth> Termite uses nml, which is easier than nfo 19:10:08 <Wolf01> We really need to do a web interface to build (simple) grfs... 19:10:16 <andythenorth> I posted in forums about it 19:10:25 <andythenorth> I think it’s a Terrible Idea 19:10:51 <frosch123> Wolf01: people do not want simple grfs, they want to modify existing complex grfs 19:11:04 <y2000rtc> Ok, how to use Termite? Download it and? 19:11:54 <y2000rtc> Sorry for my questions but I don't have any practice with that. 19:12:12 *** Gja has joined #openttd 19:12:53 <y2000rtc> Alkel? 19:13:43 <Alkel_U3> well, I'd say read through this https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial 19:13:46 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: what operating system do you have? 19:14:41 <y2000rtc> Win7 but if is necessary I can make VM. 19:15:02 <andythenorth> most grfs use some extra build tools that work on Windows, but are hard to get setup 19:15:18 <andythenorth> generally they work out the box on Linux, and mostly on OS X 19:15:26 <y2000rtc> I can try it use on Win7, XP, ... 19:16:00 * andythenorth wonders if there’s a pure nml railtype grf 19:16:16 <andythenorth> ah, the example one http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/examples/railtype/example_railtype.nml 19:16:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: the postprocessor product is posted on bundles 19:16:38 <frosch123> *preprocessor output 19:16:52 <andythenorth> it is http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/termite/push/LATEST/ 19:17:17 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: how much do you want to learn this? o-O 19:17:50 <andythenorth> hmm 346 FS left 19:18:37 <y2000rtc> I have two goals. First one to edit easiest way grf for to have what I need and second one is to learn really a lot for to understand. 19:19:09 <andythenorth> ok I would suggest following agenda y2000rtc :) 19:19:30 <andythenorth> 1. get nml compiler 19:19:43 <andythenorth> 2. get source code for an existing grf (e.g. Termite, or nml example railtypes grf) 19:19:50 <andythenorth> 3. check you can compile existing grf 19:19:55 <andythenorth> 4. start editing to learn 19:20:36 <andythenorth> 5. when you’ve learnt a bit, try and make the grf you want, by copy-paste from one of the existing, throwing out what you don’t need, adding what you want 19:20:41 <y2000rtc> 1. where to get nml compiler sir? 19:20:51 <andythenorth> good 1 19:20:59 <andythenorth> good question * 19:21:07 <frosch123> https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial explains it 19:21:12 <y2000rtc> 2. is it possible to use only grf file without source code? 19:21:35 <Alberth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/ <-- it has download link 19:21:58 <andythenorth> for 2. only if you want to learn nfo (hex code) 19:22:02 <andythenorth> you likely don't 19:22:08 <Alberth> "use" as in play a game with it? 19:22:53 <andythenorth> this is well-laid out nfo https://pastebin.com/raw/HwUHywJi 19:23:35 <Alberth> see the bottom of the tutorial page for a comparison between NML and NFO 19:23:37 *** tokai has joined #openttd 19:23:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 19:24:09 <Alberth> I would suggest you select the NML column for future use :) 19:25:10 <y2000rtc> ufff 19:25:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: does the UI have methods to resize windows when viewport changes size? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3417 19:26:05 <Alberth> I think so 19:26:26 <Alberth> or at least move them back into view 19:26:36 <andythenorth> so valid task? 19:27:46 <Alberth> not sure, Rb claims it's not 19:27:59 *** mescalito has quit IRC 19:28:07 <Alberth> maybe the window is not very resizable or so 19:28:21 <Alberth> don't understand why Rb says that 19:29:10 <andythenorth> he was just adjusting status 19:30:12 <Alberth> yes, because he doesn't see it as a bug 19:30:17 <andythenorth> industry windows are moved when I resize viewport 19:30:19 <Alberth> I don't know why 19:30:21 <andythenorth> so the methods exist 19:31:29 <andythenorth> newgrf window neither 19:31:43 <Alberth> it's just a function that walks through the window-stack :) 19:31:58 <Alberth> not all windows resize very well 19:32:24 <Alberth> maybe they stay centered? 19:32:29 <andythenorth> think they do 19:33:00 <Alberth> if they do, then that technically indeed counts as not a bug 19:33:08 <Alberth> since they are properly centered 19:33:15 <Alberth> just not in a useful way :p 19:33:52 <andythenorth> I’ve attached this conversation :P 19:33:57 <andythenorth> there’s nothing else I can do with that 19:33:59 <Alberth> from UX pov, it counts as bug :p 19:33:59 <andythenorth> can’t close 19:34:05 <andythenorth> can’t fix :P 19:34:17 <Alberth> not easily, likely 19:34:55 <andythenorth> not convinced that supporting resize-to-smaller is a big thing 19:34:59 <andythenorth> especially at game start 19:35:55 <Alberth> I sometimes do resize the window while playing, to make room for another window 19:36:02 <Alberth> but in general, I agree 19:36:18 <andythenorth> has to stay open? 19:36:46 <Alberth> I wasn't going to fix it, so I don't care either way 19:37:39 <y2000rtc> Thank you guys. Is not really easy to do it. Termite is about metro tracks. I want to have different rails of speed and the same graphics. 19:38:11 <frosch123> y2000rtc: you can also assign speed limits via orders 19:38:12 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 19:38:19 <Alberth> I already run short on time for #6053 with all the things I am doing 19:38:39 <Alberth> Termite is train tracks, afaik 19:38:53 <y2000rtc> via orders? Please any details? 19:38:55 <Alberth> maybe it has tram tracks too? 19:39:18 <y2000rtc> I want that only for normal railways. 19:39:25 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Timetable <- y2000rtc: see the "change speed limit" button? 19:39:26 * andythenorth checks termite 19:41:25 <y2000rtc> Ok, clear. What I want to do is to make a railway from station to station with different rails of speed. Arround station to go 40 km/h for example, after that 80 km/h and arround depo 20 km/h. 19:42:26 *** mescalito has joined #openttd 19:42:56 <y2000rtc> I already have GRF file with that but for these speeds are used different designs of rails and I would like to use the same design. :) 19:44:02 <andythenorth> which grf is it? 19:47:15 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 19:49:47 *** Alberth has left #openttd 19:54:07 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 19:54:42 *** _3298 has joined #openttd 19:55:49 <y2000rtc> It is called NuTracks 19:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's really simple then, you grab the source of nutracks, and remove the parts that define how the rails look 19:58:31 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nutracks/repository/entry/src/nutracks.pnml 19:58:54 <andythenorth> actually http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nutracks/repository 19:58:56 <andythenorth> better 20:07:54 *** grossing has joined #openttd 20:09:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: I made it to page 10 of celestar thread :P 20:10:15 <frosch123> impressive :) 20:10:25 <frosch123> how does it compare to fs? 20:10:32 <andythenorth> different 20:11:05 * andythenorth wonders 20:11:31 <andythenorth> this appears to pre-date newgrf industries, cargos, railtypes 20:11:34 <andythenorth> that can’t be right 20:11:35 <andythenorth> 2007 20:11:41 <andythenorth> I started FIRS in 2008 20:11:58 <frosch123> it's parallel 20:12:12 <frosch123> industry cargos were implemented in ottd in 2007 20:12:20 <andythenorth> more wisdom https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=644192#p644192 20:12:42 <andythenorth> loads of stuff about planes again 20:14:15 <frosch123> i played a plane game once, it was fun, second game was boring 20:14:34 <andythenorth> this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=656532#p656532 20:14:46 <andythenorth> is the only idea I’ve seen so far that I want an API for :P 20:15:03 <andythenorth> everything else is either (1) dumb (2) good, but not OpenTTD (3) solved in newgrf 20:15:19 *** Wolf03 has joined #openttd 20:15:19 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3856 20:15:19 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 20:18:57 <andythenorth> frosch123: finally, someone turns up talking sense in the thread :P https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=795479#p795479 20:20:31 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Secondary_Related_Objects#Secondary_related_features <- added the profit stuff to that page 20:20:52 <frosch123> what, you were part of it? 20:21:10 <andythenorth> apparently 20:21:16 *** Guest3856 has quit IRC 20:21:38 <frosch123> at least your opinion did not change :) 20:22:00 <andythenorth> I was right all along :P 20:22:15 <andythenorth> I should write some kind of economy spec 20:22:59 <frosch123> "(nfo) can be fund to write" (andy, 2009) 20:23:02 <frosch123> -d 20:23:25 <andythenorth> it was 20:23:27 <frosch123> oi, i forgot about p1sim 20:23:35 * andythenorth should have made a python compiler for nfo 20:23:37 <frosch123> what happened to that? 20:23:52 <frosch123> http://www.p1sim.org/ <- still online 20:23:54 *** ic111 has quit IRC 20:25:01 * andythenorth looks in map bits 20:25:05 <frosch123> hmm, it has a similar statistic as factorio 20:25:12 <frosch123> 100 lines per file on average 20:25:26 <frosch123> that's really weird to me... 20:25:39 <andythenorth> many many small files? 20:25:49 <frosch123> sometimes you have short files, but 100 on average? that means some files are a lot shorter 20:26:02 <andythenorth> our files look very big to me 20:26:02 <frosch123> you need at least 20 lines for #include 20:26:07 <andythenorth> but I only look in the big ones :P 20:26:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: 500-1000 sounds normal to me 20:26:34 *** Gja has quit IRC 20:26:34 <frosch123> at 4k it tends to get tedious 20:27:01 <andythenorth> I mostly look in industry_cmd.cpp :P 20:27:07 <frosch123> oh... maybe i count header files wrong 20:27:13 <andythenorth> eh so I’ve had half an idea for a long time 20:27:14 <frosch123> headers can be really short without documentation 20:27:31 <andythenorth> I want to keep some kind of ‘economy health’ byte around 20:27:36 <andythenorth> preferably per tile 20:28:03 <andythenorth> accessible to newgrf, settable by gs (but not requiring gs callbacks) 20:28:18 <andythenorth> per tile might suck, might have to be per town 20:29:17 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Thank you so much. Question due to repository. Is there any way how to download whole folder with source code? And *.pnml, what should be edited and compile to GRF? :( 20:29:55 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: one of these likely includes the full source http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/LATEST/ 20:30:26 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:31:43 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: great help, I'm still closer and closer to my goal. :D 20:33:10 * y2000rtc slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot 20:33:24 <andythenorth> that’s not been said here for a while 20:34:46 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Ok, I downloaded file NuTrack last version and there is only grf file. What I have to downloaded for to edited and make a grf? 20:35:22 <andythenorth> try http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/LATEST/nutracks-r252-source.tar.gz 20:36:10 <andythenorth> also http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nutracks/push/LATEST/nutracks.nml 20:36:20 <andythenorth> you likely won’t have anything on Windows that can run Make 20:37:07 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Thanks again Andy. It looks much better. Right now I have to find right file for editing and there something change and after that make a new GRF file from that, or? 20:37:59 <andythenorth> there are instructions for getting make on windows http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Setting_up_a_Windows_compile_environment_using_WSL 20:38:25 <andythenorth> but I would skip that for now 20:38:42 <andythenorth> you should have a folder, like nutracks-r252-source 20:38:50 <andythenorth> put the nutracks.nml file in there 20:39:06 <y2000rtc> ok 20:39:18 <andythenorth> ach, I don’t know how to use nmlc on windows though :P 20:39:48 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: :) Was already putted. 20:40:11 <andythenorth> there must be instructions for using nmlc on windows somewhere 20:40:39 <y2000rtc> nmlc is a software? 20:40:57 <andythenorth> yes 20:41:05 <y2000rtc> Yes, it is SW and I already have there. 20:41:18 <y2000rtc> Is working with some parametres. I used that. 20:41:34 <y2000rtc> It is working over CMD but which parameter must be putted? 20:41:46 <y2000rtc> Maybe there are the same like on a Linux. 20:42:04 <andythenorth> nmlc -c --grf mygrf.grf mygrf.nml 20:42:18 <andythenorth> swap ‘mygrf’ for ‘nutracks’ or so 20:42:18 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Great. :) 20:42:46 <andythenorth> it might _just_ compile 20:42:51 <andythenorth> if it does you get a grf 20:43:02 <andythenorth> otherwise it will throw some errors somewhere 20:44:20 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I will do it. One question more. What to change for to use the same design Andy? 20:44:32 <andythenorth> one step at a time :) 20:45:26 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Yes, but I have to change something before compile, or? 20:45:36 <andythenorth> first see if it compiles at all :) 20:45:49 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Whole folder must be moved to folder with nmlc? 20:46:06 <andythenorth> not sure on windows 20:46:09 <andythenorth> probably 20:46:36 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Otherwise how to define path? 20:46:55 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I will try. 20:49:20 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: result: [Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION" 20:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to run the makefile properly, then 20:51:57 <andythenorth> ach, it needs some custom tags :( 20:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> VERSION comes from a file "custom_tags.txt" or so, which the makefile fills with the revision (or some other identifying version detail) 20:52:24 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: open lang/english.lng 20:52:38 <andythenorth> delete {VERSION} 20:52:40 <andythenorth> on line 2 20:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> how does that solve anything? 20:53:20 <andythenorth> should get it compiling 20:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> just install mingw, and you can run make. 20:55:41 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Yes, working. :) GRf was made 20:55:49 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: ufff 20:57:02 <y2000rtc> People, have you already seen www.mashinky.com? New game created like a new style of TTD. :) Puzzle style of building and after that 3D. Looks great. 20:57:58 <andythenorth> there’s a few out there 20:58:20 <andythenorth> https://twitter.com/VoxelTycoon 20:58:26 <andythenorth> https://twitter.com/colonistsgame 20:59:04 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Hmm. Interesting. 21:04:19 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: So, now I have to find parameter for choosing design and this one to change to the same everytime. Or? 21:05:28 <andythenorth> you want base set (origina) rails only? 21:05:32 <andythenorth> or Nutracks rails? 21:06:02 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I want to set original design to all rails in NuTracks. 21:07:24 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: In NuTracks it is the slowest rail. 21:08:38 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 21:09:31 <andythenorth> look for graphics {} blocks 21:09:37 <andythenorth> delete everything inside them 21:09:43 <andythenorth> probably works 21:09:53 * andythenorth hasn’t coded any railtypes, but eh 21:11:34 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:13:46 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:13:50 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: A lot of findings. 21:21:46 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Just deleting whole blocks? 21:21:56 <andythenorth> everything between graphics {} 21:22:16 <andythenorth> that should restore defaults 21:27:18 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Done, I'm going to try it. 21:29:26 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: ←[Knmlc ERROR: "src/standard-gauge/RAIL.pnml", line 34: Syntax error, unexpected token "}" Included from: "<stdin>", line 36 21:29:39 <andythenorth> what’s on line 36? 21:29:48 <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ 21:30:32 <andythenorth> maybe graphics block can’t be empty, or maybe it’s an extra / missing { or } 21:31:46 *** _3298 has quit IRC 21:33:13 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: underlay: ground_switch_underlay_RAIL; 21:33:58 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pi8wkikvd 21:34:34 <andythenorth> hmm 21:35:03 <andythenorth> getting late for me to figure that out :P 21:35:25 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: :) 21:35:34 <andythenorth> most people probably going to bed 21:35:55 <andythenorth> try tomorrow? 21:36:06 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Offcourse. Thank you so much. Tomorrow is great. 21:36:32 <andythenorth> np 21:36:34 <andythenorth> bye 21:36:35 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:54:23 *** y2000rtc has quit IRC 22:21:16 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 22:27:17 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:36:00 <Wolf01> 'night 22:36:03 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:38:48 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:00:02 *** keoz has joined #openttd 23:08:57 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 23:12:51 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC 23:26:44 *** Compu has quit IRC 23:27:01 *** keoz has quit IRC 23:29:28 *** Compu has joined #openttd 23:30:09 *** gelignite has quit IRC 23:30:38 *** mescalito has quit IRC