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00:00:14 *** nick213 has joined #openttd 00:02:29 *** nick213 has quit IRC 00:02:56 <Wolf01> 'night 00:03:00 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 00:04:55 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 00:05:10 *** Guest7773 is now known as Prof_Frink 00:05:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7774 00:09:07 *** Afdal has joined #openttd 00:09:19 <Afdal> Could someone tell me the proper syntax for setting variables from console again 00:09:25 <Afdal> I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong here 00:09:35 *** nick213 has joined #openttd 00:10:05 <Afdal> isn't it just "set net_frame_freq 8" for instance? 00:12:58 *** Mahjong1 has joined #openttd 00:19:09 <Samu> can u spot the difference on these two? 00:19:15 <Samu> if (HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsTileType(st->xy, MP_STATION) && !IsOilRig(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.accept_indcargo_at_nonindstation) continue; 00:19:20 <Samu> if (!HasIndustryStation(ind) && IsTileType(st->xy, MP_STATION) && IsOilRig(st->xy) && !_settings_game.station.accept_nonindcargo_at_indstation) continue; 00:20:31 *** Mahjong has quit IRC 00:21:40 *** glx has quit IRC 00:27:26 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly with =? 00:38:25 <nick213> Hi, is there a fix to the bug where right click drag scrolling is broken on winblows10 after the last big update? 00:39:31 <Cubey> I think I have heard that is caused by something windows 10 is doing with "mouse gestures," which I hope you can turn off 00:40:11 <Cubey> I don't use that OS so I don't know how that is done 00:40:56 <nick213> Thanks, I will look it up 01:02:58 <Samu> cyas all 01:03:05 *** Samu has quit IRC 01:06:10 *** Guest7774 is now known as Prof_Frink 01:06:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7779 01:21:42 *** nick2133 has joined #openttd 01:27:42 *** nick21333 has joined #openttd 01:28:43 *** nick213 has quit IRC 01:29:10 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 01:35:23 *** nick2133 has quit IRC 01:36:35 *** Progman has quit IRC 01:37:48 *** joseph222 has joined #openttd 01:38:16 <joseph222> Hello 01:38:41 *** nick2133 has joined #openttd 01:42:50 *** nick213 has joined #openttd 01:45:44 *** nick21333 has quit IRC 01:47:50 *** nick21333 has joined #openttd 01:48:11 <supermop_home> here is something odd: 01:48:43 *** nick2133 has quit IRC 01:48:51 <supermop_home> build a truck loading bay with houses in its catchment: it won't accept passengers 01:48:54 <supermop_home> but 01:49:54 <supermop_home> build a dock etc with houses that accepts passengers 01:50:03 <supermop_home> then attach a truck station 01:50:14 <supermop_home> then remove the dock 01:50:28 <supermop_home> now you have a truck bay that accepts passengers 01:52:24 *** nick2133 has joined #openttd 01:53:40 *** nick213 has quit IRC 01:55:24 *** nick213 has joined #openttd 01:58:44 *** nick21333 has quit IRC 02:01:44 *** nick2133 has quit IRC 02:07:04 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 02:07:11 *** Guest7779 is now known as Prof_Frink 02:07:52 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7780 02:29:45 *** nick213 has left #openttd 03:06:07 *** Montana has quit IRC 03:08:11 *** Guest7780 is now known as Prof_Frink 03:08:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7785 04:09:11 *** Guest7785 is now known as Prof_Frink 04:09:52 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7788 04:15:48 *** Arveen2 has joined #openttd 04:20:27 *** Arveen has quit IRC 04:50:36 *** Cubey has quit IRC 05:10:12 *** Guest7788 is now known as Prof_Frink 05:10:44 *** josephlee222 has joined #openttd 05:10:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7792 05:14:46 *** josephlee222 has quit IRC 05:18:27 *** joseph222 has quit IRC 05:34:04 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:10:18 *** PressureLine has joined #openttd 06:11:12 *** Guest7792 is now known as Prof_Frink 06:11:22 <PressureLine> Hihi 06:11:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7797 06:11:52 *** PressureLine has quit IRC 06:12:08 *** PressureLine has joined #openttd 06:39:01 *** PressureLine has quit IRC 06:39:07 *** PressureLine has joined #openttd 06:47:28 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:10:34 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 07:12:12 *** Guest7797 is now known as Prof_Frink 07:12:28 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:12:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7803 07:17:33 <zermizh> oh hi 07:18:15 <zermizh> i wish i had known about openttd like 10 years ago. i used to play this stuff when i was 6 or something 07:41:38 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:01:57 *** Breckett has joined #openttd 08:13:13 *** Guest7803 is now known as Prof_Frink 08:13:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7806 08:15:49 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:16:33 <Wolf01> o/ 08:17:16 <__ln__> hello early wolf 08:17:25 *** Progman has joined #openttd 08:17:43 <PressureLine> haha I remember playing TTO like 20 years ago 08:24:36 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 08:25:05 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 08:30:06 *** Breckett has quit IRC 08:42:46 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 08:48:11 <PressureLine> Why can't I get a 'happy medium' between: 08:48:12 <PressureLine> "so many industries on a map I spend half my time routing trains around them" 08:48:14 <PressureLine> and 08:48:59 <PressureLine> "wtf the 'only' paper mill is 1000 tiles from all the forests" 08:49:28 <Wolf01> Map size and number of towns affect industries 08:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: what if the wolf is not early, but the time is late? 08:54:11 <PressureLine> https://i.imgur.com/to2C5aI.png 08:54:26 <PressureLine> seems a tad excessive for Low/Low on a 512*1024 08:55:06 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: especially today that is a possibility indeed 08:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> PressureLine: consider that the map size just multiplies everything from the original 256x256, instead of spacing things out 08:58:36 <PressureLine> yeah 08:58:54 <PressureLine> just weird is all, that setting the industires to V.Low 08:59:04 <PressureLine> turns the map into a howling wilderness 08:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> try towns to v.low and industries to low? 08:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly enabling/disabling multiple of the same industry per town? 09:02:54 <PressureLine> is disabled 09:06:09 <PressureLine> more of a general gripe really. 09:08:40 *** Breckett has joined #openttd 09:14:13 *** Guest7806 is now known as Prof_Frink 09:14:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7808 09:18:09 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 09:18:29 *** Dakkus has quit IRC 09:41:13 *** PressureLine has quit IRC 09:51:45 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd 09:59:18 *** Flygon has quit IRC 10:08:50 *** debdog has quit IRC 10:14:20 *** debdog has joined #openttd 10:15:13 *** Guest7808 is now known as Prof_Frink 10:15:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7810 10:23:09 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 10:23:49 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 10:34:42 *** debdog has quit IRC 10:42:15 *** debdog has joined #openttd 10:42:18 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd 11:11:17 *** Breckett has quit IRC 11:11:51 *** Samu has joined #openttd 11:11:56 <Samu> hi 11:16:14 *** Guest7810 is now known as Prof_Frink 11:16:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7820 11:22:21 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 11:47:44 *** PressureLine has joined #openttd 11:55:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 11:55:55 *** PressureLine has quit IRC 11:56:25 *** PressureLine has joined #openttd 12:16:15 *** tycoondemon has quit IRC 12:17:14 *** Guest7820 is now known as Prof_Frink 12:17:52 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7822 12:18:35 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd 12:18:50 <PressureLine> o_O 12:20:35 *** debdog has quit IRC 12:27:50 *** debdog has joined #openttd 12:40:13 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC 12:41:14 <Samu> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77199&p=1193521#p1193521 12:41:21 <Samu> v3 is posted, also edited the topic 12:41:25 <Samu> to be a bit more clear 12:41:31 <Samu> tell me if it's still confusing 12:46:30 <Samu> Allow non-industry stations to be supplied with cargo supplied by the industry 12:46:35 <Samu> this line is too long 12:46:47 <Samu> must shorten it, any halp! 12:46:55 <PressureLine> hmm 12:47:23 <Samu> Allow non-industry stations to supply cargo supplied by its industry? 12:47:25 <PressureLine> maybe 12:48:00 <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand" 12:48:17 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 12:48:18 *** PressureLine has quit IRC 12:48:38 *** PressureLine has joined #openttd 12:48:50 <PressureLine> hmm 12:48:54 <PressureLine> >_< 12:49:09 <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand" 12:49:28 <PressureLine> so when enabled 12:49:54 <PressureLine> cargodist can route 'other' cargos through the oilrig stations 12:50:00 <PressureLine> ? 12:50:39 <Samu> oh, this is not directly related to cargodist 12:51:01 <PressureLine> like if there is a wood carrying helicopter that lands at the rig, it caould drop the wood and the wood be picked up by a ship (or whatever) for onwards transport 12:51:30 <PressureLine> when disabled the wood can not be dropped off at the station? 12:51:44 <Samu> the industry or an industry nearby must accept wood, right? 12:52:05 <PressureLine> with cargodist, not neccesarily 12:52:31 <Samu> i really wish to know how cargodist behaves 12:53:01 <Samu> it may affect cargodist in some way, but i'm not directly making changes to cargodist code 12:53:46 <PressureLine> (not directly realted to settings phrasing but...) the reason I ask is: 12:53:59 <PressureLine> a) to figure out what the setting does 12:54:20 <PressureLine> b) wondering if it might break cargodist in some way 12:55:31 <PressureLine> the idea with cargodist is that it can give an invisible 'transfer' order to all or part of a vehicles load 12:57:11 <Samu> okay let me think. this is a bit confusing even for me if the oil rig station 12:57:27 <PressureLine> https://i.imgur.com/Ioir3le.png 12:57:42 <PressureLine> so in the screenshot 12:57:54 <PressureLine> the trams have 2 orders 12:58:15 <PressureLine> "Full Load Any Cargo" at Puthwaite Springs Mines 12:58:45 <PressureLine> and "Goto Brindingstone Mines" 12:59:57 <PressureLine> cargodist tells the trams "unload & leave empty" at Brindingstone so that the Iron Ore can be loaded onto the big ore trains that head off to the northwest 13:00:27 <Samu> Brindingstone Mines doesn't accept iron ore, but it's still transferred there, right? 13:00:31 <Samu> i see 13:00:32 <PressureLine> correct 13:00:47 <PressureLine> brindingstone doesnt accept anything iirc 13:02:12 <PressureLine> so if you're blocking 'forced' unloading (of non accepted cargos) at intrinsic stations (oil rigs) 13:02:28 <PressureLine> cargodist has to have some way of knowing 13:03:12 <PressureLine> otherwise it may try to route 'other' cargoes through the oil rig station 13:03:25 <Samu> if the oil rig station never provides wood, but an helicopter brings wood there, what is supposed to happen? 13:03:41 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 13:04:18 <PressureLine> if, for some reason there is a way for the wood to get from the oilrig to it's eventual destination (other than by staying on the helo) 13:04:58 <PressureLine> it would get unloaded at the oilrig, then get picked up by the next vehicle that gets the wood closer to it's destination 13:05:11 <Samu> in the case of the iron ore transfer, there is another iron ore there 13:05:15 <PressureLine> yes 13:05:17 <PressureLine> but 13:05:32 <PressureLine> if the brindingstone iron ore mine closes down 13:05:42 <PressureLine> it will all still work 13:05:44 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 13:06:04 <Samu> ok let me test this out, brb 13:06:37 <PressureLine> try with mail. 13:07:24 <PressureLine> go townA->oilrig and townB->oilrig, with separate ships (or helicopters) for each leg 13:09:50 *** tycoondemon2 has joined #openttd 13:11:20 <Samu> ship 1, town a to oil rig 13:11:28 <Samu> ship 2, town b to oil rig 13:11:36 <Samu> cargo dist enabled 13:11:58 <PressureLine> cargo is mail? 13:12:18 <Samu> oh, mail, sure, i was trying passenger, my bad 13:12:33 <PressureLine> doesn;t matter too much, as long as that cargo type is set to either asymmetric or symmetric 13:12:51 <PressureLine> setting it to manual essentially disables cargodist 13:13:26 <Samu> it's asymmetric 13:13:49 <Samu> i don't think it will make a difference 13:13:55 <Samu> the oil rig always accepts mail 13:14:18 *** PressureLine has quit IRC 13:14:22 <Samu> but i dunno how cargo dist work, so let's see 13:14:25 *** PressureLine has joined #openttd 13:14:31 * PressureLine sighs 13:17:28 *** tycoondemon has quit IRC 13:17:50 <Samu> i see the ships sometimes do transfer, sometimes do income 13:18:14 *** Guest7822 is now known as Prof_Frink 13:18:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7826 13:19:08 <PressureLine> just scrolled down in the topic and saw the screenshots 13:19:38 *** kais58 has quit IRC 13:19:46 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd 13:19:57 <PressureLine> weird that IOre would stockpile @ the oilrig, guess it has a catchment area just like any other station? 13:20:21 <Samu> yep 13:20:29 <peter1138> fix it samu 13:20:41 <Samu> it is fixed 13:21:04 <PressureLine> omg 13:21:10 <PressureLine> massive brain fart 13:21:57 <PressureLine> just realised that 'accept' has a very specific meaning in regards to OpenTTD stations 13:22:01 <Samu> i take it my descriptions are still confusing 13:22:54 <PressureLine> is in "accept = i will recieve payment for cargo of this type unloaded here" 13:24:18 *** PressureLine has quit IRC 13:24:30 *** PressureLine has joined #openttd 13:24:36 <PressureLine> <Samu> i take it my descriptions are still confusing 13:24:37 *** tycoondemon2 has quit IRC 13:24:41 <PressureLine> a little, yes 13:24:56 <PressureLine> what is the difference between: 13:25:12 <PressureLine> "When disabled, stations attached to industries, such as Oil Rigs, won't accept cargo that is not accepted by the industries these stations are attached to" 13:25:23 <PressureLine> and 13:25:26 <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations can only accept cargo their respective industries demand" 13:27:21 <Samu> for the first, if the oil rig accepts passengers, and a power station that accepts coal, the oil rig station won't accept coal 13:29:03 <Samu> yeah, even myself get confused 13:29:20 <PressureLine> ahh 13:29:22 <PressureLine> i get it 13:29:47 <PressureLine> so if you have a tain station, whose catcchment area covers the oil rig 13:30:02 <PressureLine> it will get [a portion of] the oil generated 13:30:10 <PressureLine> s/tain/train 13:30:27 <PressureLine> if the setting is 'Enabled' 13:30:42 <PressureLine> ? 13:30:55 <Samu> if enabled, it behaves as of 1.7.1 13:31:16 <PressureLine> or 13:31:16 <Samu> that is about cargo supply 13:31:29 <PressureLine> ahh 13:31:31 <PressureLine> umm 13:31:41 <PressureLine> so the passengers the oil rigs accept 13:32:05 <PressureLine> if i have a train station, whose catchment area covers the rig 13:32:21 <PressureLine> even if the train station covers nothing else 13:32:37 <PressureLine> it will accept passengers 13:32:55 <PressureLine> [with the setting set to 'Enabled'] 13:33:04 <Samu> yes, the 2nd setting 13:33:16 <PressureLine> hmm 13:33:21 <PressureLine> dangerous setting 13:33:29 <PressureLine> -fringe case- 13:33:40 <PressureLine> i make a new industry newgrf 13:33:44 <Samu> train station is a non-industry station 13:34:05 <PressureLine> it is a steel mill, with a *built-in* train station 13:34:08 <Samu> allow train station to accept cargo accepted by the industry 13:34:32 <PressureLine> (idk if that is even possible, but whatever) 13:34:33 <Samu> if enabled, the train station will accept passengers 13:34:48 <Samu> if disabled, the train station won't accept passengers 13:35:10 <PressureLine> if i 'disable' that setting (because it makes sense for oil rigs) 13:35:37 <PressureLine> it would mean that I would *only* be able to unload IOre at the built-in station 13:35:41 <Samu> are there steel mills with built-in train stations? 13:35:47 <Samu> damn, i need that grf 13:35:51 <PressureLine> hypothetical 13:36:11 <PressureLine> like i said, i don't know if that is even *possible* 13:36:52 * PressureLine gasps 13:36:55 <PressureLine> even worse 13:37:08 <PressureLine> steel mill with a helipad 13:37:35 <PressureLine> now can only accept steel landed on the roof by helicopter 13:37:40 <Samu> as long as the station is of type OIL_RIG 13:37:52 <Samu> my code should still work 13:37:55 <PressureLine> well 13:38:06 <PressureLine> in the case of my steel mill helipad 13:38:40 <PressureLine> i think the station type would probably *have* to be OIL_RIG 13:39:07 <PressureLine> anyway 13:39:12 <Samu> +bool HasIndustryStation(const Industry *i) 13:39:20 <PressureLine> more descriptive desriptions! 13:39:28 <Samu> it iterates over all industry tiles 13:39:40 <Samu> looks for the Gfx 24 13:39:44 <PressureLine> for setting #2 13:40:31 <Samu> i think gfx 24 is special 13:41:13 <Samu> two of them arranged together, will make one to transform itself into an OIL_RIG station 13:41:47 <PressureLine> "When disabled, industries with attached stations, such as Oil Rigs, can only recieve [accept?] goods from their attached station." 13:42:31 <PressureLine> s/goods/cargo 13:42:42 <PressureLine> Goods *is* a cargo lol 13:43:49 <Samu> can only accept goods their industry with an attached station accepts, lol 13:44:45 <PressureLine> 2nd Setting: Title: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by the industry" 13:45:23 <PressureLine> better but still lacking. I tell my wife off for saying things like that. 13:46:05 <PressureLine> because it is very unclear which industry(ies) it is actually talking about 13:49:34 <PressureLine> 2nd Setting: Title: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by industries with attached stations" 13:49:53 <supermop> found another alignment issue 14:04:47 <Samu> 2nd setting tittle: "Allow other stations to accept cargo accepted by industries with attached station" 14:04:52 <Samu> yeah, like that 14:05:00 <Samu> but then it becomes gigantic line 14:05:17 <PressureLine> yeah :/ 14:06:02 <Samu> we need a master english 14:07:14 <Samu> "allow train station to accept passengers when the attached station of an industry accepts passengers" 14:07:23 <Samu> pretty hard to shorten this 14:08:20 <Samu> allow non-industry stations to accept cargo accepted by the attached industry? 14:08:25 <Samu> by the industry' 14:08:33 <Samu> bah... 14:08:56 <PressureLine> <Samu> we need a master english 14:09:14 <PressureLine> considering that English is the *only* language I speak 14:09:25 <Samu> oh, I'm sorry 14:09:32 <PressureLine> In theory, I should be a master 14:09:43 <PressureLine> in practice... not so much :D 14:11:25 <Samu> allow other stations near an industry to accept cargo 14:11:43 <Samu> accept the cargo 14:12:00 <Samu> accept its cargo? 14:12:25 <PressureLine> but it needs to be clear that it is only for industries with an attached/integral station 14:12:54 <PressureLine> maybe 14:13:52 <Samu> allow other stations near an indunstry station to accept its cargo 14:13:58 *** DDR has quit IRC 14:14:20 *** DDR has joined #openttd 14:14:35 <Samu> Allow other stations near an industry station to accept its cargo 14:14:45 <Samu> accept the cargo 14:15:07 <PressureLine> wow. 3am 14:15:17 <Samu> 2pm here 14:15:21 <PressureLine> and out of cigarettes >_< 14:16:12 <Wolf01> I'm out of biscuits again 14:16:41 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 14:16:44 <andythenorth> Computer terminals report some gains in the values of copper and tin 14:16:44 <andythenorth> While American businessmen snap up Van Goghs 14:16:45 <andythenorth> For the price of a hospital wing 14:17:09 <Samu> Wolf01: :( 14:17:42 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ACCEPT_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION 14:17:50 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ACCEPT_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION 14:17:59 <PressureLine> perfect 14:18:01 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION 14:18:04 <PressureLine> leave them like that 14:18:10 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION 14:18:29 <LordAro> andythenorth: i've not heard that in quite some time 14:18:43 * andythenorth adding tin to Steeltown 14:18:44 <andythenorth> maybe 14:19:08 <andythenorth> are Big Country related to Delamitri? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steeltown 14:19:11 <PressureLine> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ACCEPT_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION = "Accept non-industry cargo at industry station" 14:19:15 *** Guest7826 is now known as Prof_Frink 14:19:16 <andythenorth> both Scottish eh :P 14:19:28 <PressureLine> ohh... andy 14:19:45 <PressureLine> damn. where did that screenshot go 14:19:49 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7831 14:20:15 <andythenorth> hey look, a supermop connection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steeltown_(band) 14:20:17 <andythenorth> Brisbane 14:20:20 <andythenorth> and Pikka 14:20:29 <andythenorth> maybe Steeltown is Destiny 14:20:54 <PressureLine> Andy: https://i.imgur.com/Ioir3le.png 14:21:14 <supermop> hmm i have never heard of that band 14:21:17 <PressureLine> ive noticed some of the trams in Road Hog aren't aligned to the 'standard' tram tracks? 14:21:42 <andythenorth> looks like a bug 14:21:48 <PressureLine> does indeed 14:21:57 <supermop> PressureLine: i have noticed the same on some of my trams 14:22:24 <PressureLine> idk if it's just the default tram tracks being'too' narrow gauge 14:22:31 <supermop> if you dont mind looking at them to find other alignment issues - 14:22:55 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 14:23:18 <Samu> gonna rename to "Accept non-industry cargo at industry station", if it's clearer than "Allow industry stations to accept cargo to other destinations" 14:23:20 <supermop> PressureLine: i find they are aligned on one side and not on the other, so i worry that fixing it in template would mean the alignment no longer works when driving on other side 14:23:44 <supermop> Andy draws for drive on left, so you could try that and see if the problem remains??? 14:23:51 <PressureLine> i think i've only been using them in 'drive on right' 14:24:03 <supermop> otherwise, it might be better to 'fix' the track spacing 14:24:36 <supermop> i can't decide if i am going to fix the trams or the tracks - i need to test more with other sets and with drive on left 14:25:52 <Samu> that's it, gonna rename the things 14:26:00 <Samu> make it like the string 14:26:18 <Samu> it needed to be shorter anyway 14:26:31 <PressureLine> looks like for road hog its a 'drive on right' thing 14:27:05 <PressureLine> https://i.imgur.com/mTLc8hX.png 14:27:26 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 14:29:17 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 14:29:17 <PressureLine> great set though! 14:32:35 <PressureLine> I'd actually been thinking of getting Foobar's tram tracks, but since I mostly do cargo games, and usually only use trams and trucks for short feeders it's never been enough of an issue for me worry about it too much 14:34:19 <Samu> peter1138: do you english? 14:34:28 <Samu> maybe you could help 14:34:33 <PressureLine> anyway. better get some sleep so i can be of *some* use at work tomorrow 14:34:50 <PressureLine> erm... later this morning i guess. 14:34:57 <Samu> take care 14:35:06 <PressureLine> Ciao 14:35:12 *** PressureLine has quit IRC 14:40:59 <Samu> https://imgur.com/MddGS5Y 14:41:02 <Samu> it's shorter! 14:41:08 <Samu> and probably more misleading 14:41:13 <Samu> but it's shorter 14:43:34 <peter1138> So many settings :S 14:44:08 <Samu> only 4 14:44:25 <Samu> but describing them in a short manner is the biggest issue 14:44:32 <peter1138> Why does it need four? 14:44:43 <Samu> because they're 4 behaviours 14:46:15 <Samu> it needs 4 because supermop wanted customization 14:46:27 <Samu> and it makes sense to be 4 14:47:13 *** oskari89 has quit IRC 14:48:21 <Samu> even explaining each is hard 14:49:07 <Samu> accept non industry cargo at industry station 14:49:16 <Samu> industry station in this case is "oil rig station" 14:49:35 <Samu> accept non industry cargo means, for example 14:50:04 <Samu> accept coal which a nearby station, other than the oil rig station, accepts 14:50:31 <Samu> if the catchment area of the oil rig reaches the power plant, the setting lets you the oil rig accept coal or not 14:51:02 <Samu> looks like my explanation is bad too 14:51:44 <Samu> accept coal which a nearby industry, other than the oil rig industry, accepts* 14:51:56 <Samu> oil rig station 14:51:59 <Samu> OMG FU :o 14:53:16 <Samu> accept coal which a nearby industry accepts, instead of accepting it at the oil rig station when it's catchment radius reaches the other industry? 14:53:23 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 14:53:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 14:53:25 <Samu> see? this is why it's hell explaining 14:53:28 <Alberth> o/ 14:53:31 <Samu> hi 14:53:57 <Samu> Alberth: do you english more than peter1138 ? 14:54:35 <Alberth> don't know 14:55:06 <Samu> ok, a quick look at these 4 settings, do they look clear to u https://imgur.com/a/DHSny 14:55:07 <LordAro> haha 14:55:19 <LordAro> peter1138 doesn't know any English 14:57:26 <Alberth> what is a non-industry cargo? 14:57:39 <Alberth> all cargo comes from industry, doesn't it? 14:58:40 <Samu> non-industry cargo is for example, coal 14:58:54 <Samu> if coal is accepted at the oil rig station catchment area 14:59:02 <Samu> because a power plant is nearby 14:59:27 <Alberth> I am pretty sure a coal-mine is an industry 14:59:45 <Samu> ok, explaining is the hard part 15:00:06 <supermop> Alberth: he means it is not for the industry of which the station is a part 15:00:43 <Samu> yes, plz help me, i need help indeed 15:01:21 <Samu> oil rig, the industry, accepts passenger and mail 15:01:29 <Samu> oil rig, the station, can accept more than that 15:01:39 <Alberth> coal mine also accepts passengers iirc 15:01:40 <Samu> if there is for example, a power plant within catchment radius 15:01:50 <Alberth> although you need more than one to acceptance, iirc 15:03:06 <Samu> the setting makes so that the oil rig, the station, only accept that which the oil rig industry, accepts 15:03:21 <Samu> because it's attached to it 15:03:51 <Alberth> text doesn't say anything specific about that station, just stations in general 15:04:07 <Alberth> and those are not related to industries at all, afiak 15:04:14 <Samu> i needed a generalistic approach 15:04:23 <Samu> because of newgrfs, re-using oil rigs 15:04:35 <Alberth> water-based industry would do, imho 15:04:38 <Samu> firs uses dredge site, sandbank 15:05:24 <Samu> it can't be water-based industry, either 15:05:40 <Samu> there are some firs water based industries without neutral stations 15:06:07 <Samu> port 15:06:19 <Samu> fishing harbout i think 15:07:22 <Samu> the settings are related to industries with attached stations 15:07:47 <Samu> it made more sense to me to group them into Environment/Industries 15:08:16 <Samu> but they're also station related 15:08:26 <Samu> so, it's a mix of both station and industry 15:08:32 <Samu> not sure where i would put them 15:11:42 <Samu> so it's not clear 15:12:16 <Alberth> ports are not water-based, you can't build them in the water 15:12:22 <Alberth> neither is harbour 15:13:18 <Alberth> by generalizing, you include all stations, which is not what your patch is doing, afaik 15:13:21 <Samu> oh :( 15:14:07 <Samu> the patch affects both stations 15:14:22 <Samu> oil rigs, and "not oil rigs" 15:15:24 <Samu> setting 1 and 3 is for oil rigs 15:15:39 <Samu> setting 2 and 4 is for other stations nearby 15:17:01 <Alberth> you should probably not talk about stations in context of oilrigs, as there is no station drawn 15:17:30 <Alberth> ie what happens technically is not always what a user sees. 15:19:01 <Alberth> to a user, the industry itself handles cargo transfer 15:20:15 *** Guest7831 is now known as Prof_Frink 15:20:48 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7838 15:21:51 <Samu> are there water based industryies without a neutral station? 15:22:01 <Samu> some newgrf or such? 15:23:42 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 15:24:12 <Alberth> not that I know 15:25:54 <Samu> for me it isn't obvious that ports are not water based 15:26:01 <Samu> most of it is on water :( 15:26:57 <Samu> if it can be generalized to "water-based industries", wouldn't it be confusing? 15:29:27 <Samu> hmm oilrigs don't have a station drawn 15:29:34 <Samu> hmm,,, think 15:29:47 <Samu> water-based industry 15:33:09 <Samu> "accept non-industry cargo at industry station" = "allow water-based industries to accept cargo accepted by the nearby industries other than this" 15:33:27 <Samu> sometimes it's not even nearby industries, but towns 15:35:15 <Samu> "accept cargo accepted by the surroundings at water-based industries" 15:35:22 <Samu> hmm... 15:36:36 <Samu> english is the biggest issue here 15:36:51 <Samu> cus the patch is doing it's work correctly 15:36:58 <Samu> :( 15:39:24 <Alberth> allow water-based industries to accept other cargoes than their own 15:40:21 <Alberth> or "... than what they need" 15:41:13 <Samu> "Allow water-based industries to accept other cargoes than what they need" 15:41:16 <Samu> looks big 15:43:10 <Alberth> it's just a suggestion 15:43:20 <Samu> "Water industries accept other cargoes than what they need" 15:43:48 <Samu> yes, it's just that it may need horizontal scrolling 15:45:51 <Samu> woah, it fits, it's nearly in the limit 15:46:10 <Alberth> "Water industries accept other cargoes" 15:46:48 <Samu> https://imgur.com/k2tLtSg 15:47:16 <Alberth> window size doesn't mean much. Pick another font or another size, and it fails 15:47:59 <Samu> "water industries accept other cargoes" 15:48:01 <Samu> hmm 15:48:09 <Samu> may mislead 15:48:47 <Samu> it's not exactly the industry accepting it, but something near the industry that accepts it 15:49:21 <Samu> near the station, that is 15:49:44 <Samu> oil rig station 15:56:05 *** Gja has joined #openttd 15:56:32 *** Gja has quit IRC 16:06:14 <Samu> "industry stations can accept cargoes not destined to the industry" 16:06:44 <Samu> "water industries can accept cargoes with other destinies"? 16:08:13 *** zermizh has quit IRC 16:09:34 <Samu> "water industries can accept cargoes for the neighbourhood"? 16:13:08 *** Maarten has quit IRC 16:13:16 <Samu> "stations can accept cargoes destined to water industries"? 16:14:50 <Samu> "water industries can supply cargo at stations"? 16:15:28 <Samu> implying that water industries aren't stations is so confusing for me 16:16:23 *** synchris has joined #openttd 16:17:01 <Samu> "stations can supply cargoes originated from water industries"? 16:18:02 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 16:21:15 *** Guest7838 is now known as Prof_Frink 16:21:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7841 16:25:54 <Samu> nigh 16:26:01 <Samu> how do i use the word nigh in this context? 16:26:45 <supermop> nigh? 16:26:52 <Samu> "water industries can accept nigh cargoes" "cargoes for the nigh" 16:27:18 <supermop> should not use nigh in any modern or technical case 16:27:18 <Samu> dear supermop, halp me a bit 16:27:45 <supermop> it is an archaic word used only for extreme effect or mood 16:27:59 <Samu> oh, oki 16:28:24 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 16:28:29 <supermop> eg speaking about a religious apocalypse 16:28:36 <Gustavo6046> https://26fa5ef2.ngrok.io/cheapwayjs/index.html?save=##mahjong-1509376?save=OpenTTD%20Trains-1509380898710 16:29:17 <Gustavo6046> ops 16:29:19 <Gustavo6046> let me fix something 16:29:21 <Gustavo6046> wrong link 16:29:22 <Samu> i need 4 strings and their descriptions 16:29:25 <Gustavo6046> like, double save 16:29:31 <Samu> can u do that for me supermop :p 16:29:51 <Gustavo6046> https://26fa5ef2.ngrok.io/cheapwayjs/index.html?save=OpenTTD%20Trains-1509380898710 16:29:52 <Gustavo6046> fixed 16:29:54 <supermop> oooh is this a pathfinder thing? 16:30:11 <supermop> samu: maybe after lunch 16:30:26 <Samu> really? woah, thx 16:31:06 <supermop> Gustavo6046: it made like a dick 16:31:12 <Gustavo6046> what 16:31:15 <Gustavo6046> I need to fix something 16:31:23 <Gustavo6046> like a dick? lmao it's a train 16:31:41 <supermop> but the pathfinder then drew a dick 16:31:53 <supermop> brb 16:33:54 <Gustavo6046> lol? 16:35:46 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 16:40:34 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 16:51:18 <Samu> https://imgur.com/Djyyj1v that 4th setting requires horizontal scrolling :8 16:51:25 <Samu> grrr grgrgrfgnaingfap i hate myself 17:10:06 <Wolf01> I think that those settings belong to "infrastructures" and not to "industries", as you are speaking about "stations", also you can drop the "allow" and put it in place of the "on / off" string 17:10:36 <Gustavo6046> well 17:11:10 <Gustavo6046> Vanilla OpenTTD settings are already grouped very unintuitively, so I think he does not need to worry about that, Wolf01. 17:12:19 <Wolf01> Then just add settings where you want and create more chaos instead of try to fix at least what you are adding now? 17:15:07 <Wolf01> Also I think that 2 of those settings belong to the stations directly and not globally (the non-industry stations), for the industry stations global could be ok as you don't have control over them 17:22:03 <Samu> there is no Infrastructure group 17:22:16 *** Guest7841 is now known as Prof_Frink 17:22:42 <Samu> there's a Limitations group, do you mean that? 17:22:51 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7844 17:24:54 <Wolf01> <Samu> there is no Infrastructure group <- add it? 17:26:10 <Samu> in my opinion, they're all related to industries 17:26:18 <Samu> why split in half 17:28:11 <Wolf01> Ahahaah Vodafone decided to go back to monthly subscription (they passed from 30€/month to 30€/28 days, so getting 30€/year more), now for sure they won't charge 32.50€/month but round to 33€/month (32.99) so they will get 36€/year more! 17:28:31 <Wolf01> Double win. 17:30:16 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 17:31:14 <Samu> Water industries can accept cargoes destined for the neighbourhood 17:31:19 <Samu> is this good englisho? 17:35:10 <Samu> attempt #9000+ https://imgur.com/6SgRCIG 17:36:33 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:46:03 <Samu> scamafone 17:50:11 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:52:14 <supermop> samu, it's fine grammar but it's not quite clear to maybe the uninitiated user what exactly it is referring to 17:53:11 <supermop> and like someone said, a casual user might not ever really think about the distinction between an oil rig and its built-in station 17:53:44 <supermop> so need to be careful that you dont suggest that that the oil rig might start 'consuming' other cargo 17:53:48 <supermop> hmm 17:54:36 <Cubey> It's not ungrammatical but I have no idea what it means 17:54:47 <Cubey> Or any of the new options in that screenshot, really 17:55:46 <Cubey> What are "water industries"? Not clear to me if that means oil rigs, water towers in tropic climate, or something else 17:56:28 <Samu> water industries are those built on water, per Alberth 17:57:02 <Cubey> There might be a more clear term for that 17:57:02 <Samu> and if they're built on water, they got a station 17:57:12 <Cubey> But also the behaviors described don't mean anything to me 17:57:24 <Samu> it must imply that it's an industry on water with an attached station, but without actually saying this all 17:57:29 <Cubey> What does it mean for a station to "Accept cargoes destined to nearby industries" 17:57:57 <Cubey> Is the purpose of that setting to prevent players from building a train station with an oil rig in its cachement area? 17:59:19 <Samu> where did you read that "Accept cargoes destined to nearby industries", that is misleading if it's written like that 17:59:32 <Cubey> It seems like the actual functionality of these settings is to control whether water-based industries (or industries that can be approached by ships) use only their built in station, or can also interact with other nearby stations as ground-based industries do 17:59:52 <Cubey> I left out the word water 18:00:17 <Cubey> The phrasing "cargoes destined to" is impenetrable though 18:01:08 <Samu> yes, it is used for controlling, like you said 18:01:16 <Cubey> Why does this have to be broken out into so many options? Why not just a single toggle for whether "water industries" can be serviced from user-built stations 18:01:52 <Cubey> Or two options, one "water industries can accept cargo from user built stations" and another "water industries can supply cargo to user built stations" 18:01:58 <Samu> it is just for customizability 18:02:19 <Cubey> What is the difference between the last two options then? 18:02:41 <Cubey> In the screenshot 18:02:57 <Samu> water industries can also supply cargo at stations, means that an oil rig producing oil, can also supply oil to a train station 18:03:42 <Samu> wait a minute, im so confused lol 18:03:47 <Cubey> See! It is confusing 18:04:08 <Samu> let me copy paste my helptext 18:04:22 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION :Water industries can also supply cargoes at stations: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_NONINDCARGO_AT_INDSTATION_HELPTEXT :When disabled, stations attached to industries can only provide cargoes from the industries they're linked to 18:04:37 <supermop> what cubey is saying, is why not have like a simple on/off for the patch 18:04:42 <Samu> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION :Stations can also supply cargoes from water industries: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SUPPLY_INDCARGO_AT_NONINDSTATION_HELPTEXT :When disabled, industries with attached stations can only provide cargoes to the industries they're linked to 18:05:57 <supermop> "Allow User Stations to Service Industries with integral station"? 18:06:02 <supermop> on/off 18:06:12 <Cubey> Maybe these controls make more sense from a programmatic point of view, in that they reflect more closely how the game works 18:06:24 <Cubey> But there needs to be another layer of abstraction between the program and the user in this case 18:06:48 <Cubey> The use case for this is "I don't want players to be able to build islands with train stations next to oil rigs" 18:07:15 <Samu> precisely 18:07:30 <Cubey> If I wanted that, I would not know what to do given the four options in the screenshot 18:07:42 <Cubey> I guess I would turn them all off 18:07:44 <Samu> but oil rigs can also supply cargo and accept cargo from the neighbourhood 18:07:55 <Cubey> I don't know what "the neighborhood" refers to either 18:08:02 <Cubey> Does that mean the cachement area? 18:08:07 <Samu> yes, catchment area 18:08:17 <Cubey> Or catchment area, however it is spelled 18:08:34 <Cubey> You should probably use consistent terminology with the rest of the settings there at least 18:09:13 <Cubey> But more importantly, in what use cases would the user want to enable some of these options but not all 18:09:16 <Samu> the wording of setting 3 and 4 is confusing indeed 18:09:36 <Cubey> I'm not sure they are meaningfully distinct from a gameplay point of view 18:09:54 <supermop> then in the description you can write something like, "Industries with built-in stations, like Oil Rigs can supply and receive cargo from user built nearby stations. Stations at such industries can supply and receive cargo from other nearby industries." 18:10:25 <Samu> setting 3 is for the industry station, if it is allowed to provide cargo from neighbouring sources (catcment area) 18:10:47 <Cubey> So you're saying is that if there is like an oil rig next to a fishing ground, you could load fish at the oil rig's built in station? 18:10:48 <Samu> setting 4 is for your station, let's say, a train station, if it is allowed to provide cargo from the industry 18:10:52 <Cubey> And one of the settings disables that 18:11:09 <supermop> Samu: do you think a user needs all 4 options, or just on/off? 18:11:51 <supermop> personally, i would always use 'off', and it sounds like you would use 'on', is there a need for any other option in between? 18:11:51 <Samu> supermop needs 18:12:15 <Cubey> I think it's either one choice or two choices 18:12:20 <Cubey> But not four meaningful choices 18:12:25 <supermop> Samu: all i would need would be a method to maintain the current trunk behavior 18:12:40 <Samu> current trunk behaviour is enabling them all 18:12:42 <supermop> like my wording above 18:12:58 <Samu> but ok, i'll see if i can reduce this to 2 settings 18:13:34 <supermop> basically you have two behavior changes; 1) for the industry and 2) for the built in station 18:13:34 <Cubey> If it's two settings, one of those corresponds to some combination of the existing four being in a mixed state 18:13:51 <Cubey> Yeah, I agree with supermop 18:14:09 <Cubey> The useful mixed state is "I want this behavior turned off for user stations but not for the oil rig station" 18:14:12 <Cubey> Or vice versa 18:14:53 <supermop> so you just need to decide 1) do other regular stations work with the industry, and 2) does the station work with other regular industies 18:15:19 <Samu> setting 3 is really misleading though, thx for bringing it up 18:15:47 <supermop> with those two choices you get a lot of nuance, i am not sure anyone would turn 1 on and 2 off, or vis-versa 18:15:55 <Cubey> It seems to me like 1&2 and 3&4 should be combined 18:16:01 <supermop> so you might be able to combine it into 1 18:16:44 <Cubey> Oh no wait maybe it's 1&3 and 2&4 18:16:49 <Samu> lel :) 18:16:59 <Cubey> I'm not even sure because it's so confusing 18:17:21 <Cubey> Yeah I think you would always want the value of 1==3 and 2==4 18:18:29 <Samu> install the patch, and try this savegame 18:18:39 <Samu> see how acceptance, suppliance changes 18:18:45 <Samu> let me post savegame 18:20:43 <Samu> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77199&p=1193622#p1193622 18:21:06 <Samu> there's 2 ships, one is oil ship, the other is iron ore ship 18:21:14 <Samu> both ships visit both stations 18:21:46 <Samu> it's the savegame i used to create those screenshots 18:22:26 <supermop> Samu: here is my question, conceptually 18:22:28 <supermop> https://imgur.com/a/XRrPC 18:22:55 <supermop> here we have 3 stations 18:23:05 *** Guest7844 is now known as Prof_Frink 18:23:15 <supermop> one for a town, one at the mine, and one by the oil rig 18:23:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7845 18:24:01 <supermop> why should the dock near the rig not catch the oil, but the station by the mine does catch the ore from the mine 18:24:31 <supermop> and the dock near the town does catch the passengers from the town 18:25:08 <supermop> why should the dock at the far right behave differently with respect to the oil, than the other two stations do? 18:25:36 <peter1138> Hmm, Saturn V on backorder? 18:25:38 <Samu> it's because the difference is the existance of the neutral station. the idea was to use it 18:26:02 <Samu> but i understand your point 18:26:39 <Samu> it's not really because it's crossing water 18:28:33 <Samu> well, it is, depending on the point of view, so that's why I welcome customization 18:29:25 <Samu> the wording again... "water industry" comes into play 18:30:16 <Samu> what the code is doing is looking for industries with an attached station. it just so happend that the attached station is OIL_RIG, and the industry is on water 18:31:51 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 18:34:01 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 18:35:56 <Samu> if the oil rig on your screenshot had no station 18:36:04 <Samu> attached to it 18:36:35 <Samu> the code would treat that oil rig industry as a normal one, that dock would always accept passengers and engineering supplies 18:36:52 <Samu> regardless of your setting 18:38:21 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:38:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:39:34 <Samu> if u know of any newgrf with water industries without stations, then yes, the wording "water industry" is wrong, because the way it is put right now, is assuming all water industries to have an attached station 18:39:47 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:40:08 <Samu> blame Alberth 18:40:12 <Samu> j/k 18:43:00 <supermop> how does the neutral station affect gameplay differently? (it does, but i'm not sure to a degree that warrants a change) 18:43:28 <andythenorth> lo 18:44:16 <supermop> if the issue is that a player owned station with better rating would 'steal' oil that would otherwise be available to all players at the neutral station, i am not sure that is a compelling reason 18:44:28 <supermop> as this is what happens at every other industry 18:45:54 <supermop> conversely (i think), a player could serve the oil rig well for years, building up good ratings and high production, and then another player can dock a ship at the rig and take the oil without having done the initial 'work' 18:46:44 <Samu> oh, the oil produced at the oil rig is always available at the oil rig station 18:46:48 <supermop> so if it is a competitive server, neutral stations might actually be worse than 'selfish' land based stations 18:47:23 <Samu> what you disable is the oil being available at a dock 18:47:30 <Samu> it's not disabled at the oil rig 18:47:44 <supermop> because if two players have separate docks near the rig, at least the player with better service gets more oil 18:48:22 <supermop> samu, i know it is available at the rig, but in the game, if the land based dock has higher rating, it gets more oil - is that what you are trying to prevent?> 18:48:58 <supermop> my question is, what is the need to prevent oil from appearing at the dock 18:49:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: building materials are meh 18:49:26 <Samu> it's just so that the player is forced to use the oil rig station instead 18:49:35 <supermop> Samu: why 18:49:40 <supermop> why force them 18:49:51 <frosch123> slag plant -> trading post is about the same two cargos 18:50:11 <Samu> because uhm... the industry provides a station, it's just because of this 18:50:36 <Samu> use it, don't make your own station if there's a neutral one 18:50:42 <supermop> if i serve the oil rig with a dock or train station, how does that ruin or hurt gameplay to the extent that it must be banned 18:51:13 <supermop> if i have my own station, i can control the rating there with advertisements etc 18:51:22 <supermop> a neutral one i cannot 18:51:56 <supermop> at a neutral one, a competitor can dock a huge boat 1 day before my boat arrives, and take all the oil 18:52:33 <supermop> at a neutral helipad, a competitor can park a helicopter and prevent mine from ever landing 18:52:43 <Samu> ah, i see, griefing 18:52:54 <supermop> no, not necessarily 18:53:21 <supermop> what if the other player simply is afk and forgot to restart the helicopter 18:53:46 <Samu> call an admin, i dunno, really didn't think about that 18:53:58 <supermop> what i am saying is, there might be a reason here, but i am not sure it is worth it 18:54:55 <supermop> basically you are creating a division, where all normal cargo has a particular ruleset around it - build your own station, provide the best service, and you get the most cargo. 18:55:56 <supermop> if a competitor wants to take cargo from there, they have to compete for it, by providing a better (or at least almost as good) service 18:55:57 <andythenorth> frosch123: I agree building materials are meh 18:56:14 <andythenorth> if there were town effects... 18:56:19 <andythenorth> the less so 18:56:25 <supermop> but you are making a distinction at the oil rig, by saying that oil at the oil rig is special case 18:56:51 <supermop> that you cannot use the normal rules of good service = more cargo here 18:57:25 <Samu> i think it's a matter of taste now, you turn 4th setting off if you want the vanilla behaviour 18:57:31 <supermop> that this cargo is only available on a first come, first served basis 18:58:02 <supermop> anyone can take it, and there is nothing you can do to secure a particular share for yourself 18:58:04 <Samu> it rotates between all vehicles, as long as they don't park 18:58:22 <supermop> and all of that is fine - but it is a very deliberate departure 18:58:40 <supermop> what i want to know, is, is there a demand for that? 18:58:56 <Samu> yes, I demand it 18:58:57 <Samu> :p 18:59:14 <Samu> I demanded it so much I created a patch 18:59:23 <supermop> ok then, i want to know why, for you, enforcing that behavior makes the game better 18:59:58 <supermop> because understanding that gameplay angle probably helps inform the patched behavior itself 19:00:52 <Samu> well, first because I hate to see trains going there taking oil instead of using ships. there's btpro servers with a fugly workaround the issue, so yes, i think there's demand other than myself 19:00:55 <andythenorth> eh? 19:01:02 * andythenorth hasn't read logs 19:01:14 <andythenorth> if the issue is banning neutral stations, then remove them in newgrf 19:01:17 <andythenorth> just don't include the tile 19:01:31 <andythenorth> what do I miss? 19:02:14 <supermop> andythenorth: opposite of banning neutral stations 19:02:32 <Samu> andythenorth: are u familiar with newgrf industries? does Gfx 24 ring a bell, or 1C? 19:02:34 <supermop> banning servicing of any industry with a station by player built stations 19:03:23 <Samu> exactly that 19:03:31 <supermop> Samu: why do you hate to see trains going to the rig? what if the rig is right next to land? 19:04:07 <Samu> well, i still prefer to see ships going there 19:04:15 <supermop> also, how is trains at rigs non-competitive/griefing such that it needs to be banned 19:04:28 <Samu> it's my own preference 19:04:47 <supermop> Samu: most rigs in real life send their oil to shore by pipeline, not ships 19:05:26 <supermop> tankers going back and forth over a short distance arguably looks more weird than some installation on shore receiving the oil 19:06:02 <supermop> why do those servers ban the trains going there? 19:06:25 <Samu> for competition issues 19:06:39 <supermop> if it is for competitive reasons, it seems that just creates a situation that then needs extra enforcement by admins 19:07:05 <supermop> how is the neutral station better for competition? 19:07:27 * Samu summons ST2 19:07:33 <supermop> it doesn't allow one company to develop a better rating for cargo than the others 19:07:54 <Samu> they're on equal footing then 19:07:58 <Samu> sounds good imo 19:08:08 <andythenorth> ok 19:08:18 <supermop> how are they on equal footing? 19:08:20 <andythenorth> banning pickup from player-owned stations makes absolutely no sense to me 19:08:23 <andythenorth> so I'll duck out :) 19:08:26 <ST2> in a competitive game, players raising land to make stations/tracks blocks the access to industry to other players - we have disable join distant station parts 19:08:30 <supermop> andythenorth: same 19:10:06 <Samu> basically the reason of my patch is fundamentally because the industry has its own station and I wanted players to make use of them 19:11:09 <Samu> but the behaviour can be turned on if you really wish the vanilla behaviour 19:11:34 <Samu> it's a matter of preference 19:11:55 <Samu> i wanted to discourage players from raising land on water and place their big fat train stations right next to oil rigs 19:12:22 <Samu> it's ... ugly, but that's just my preference 19:12:51 <supermop> Samu: then make the oil rigs spawn only far away from land, or better yet, make raising ocean land very expensive 19:13:39 <ST2> that would be give exclusivity of those raises only to rich companies 19:13:49 <ST2> not very fair ^^ 19:14:35 <supermop> how about the exclusivity to the player who can send a ton of boats to the oil rig that the small player has been trying to increase the rating at 19:14:43 <ST2> Samu: if vanilla behaviour is the default one, I even like the idea of giving server owners that choice :) 19:15:45 <ST2> boats don't jam and only one loads at once (I think per company) - so, I see no point 19:15:50 <Samu> i don't find it fair when one player uses ships, then comes another raising land and building train right next to it 19:16:23 <supermop> https://imgur.com/a/pabCi 19:16:44 <supermop> ST2: what about if the oil is on land 19:17:08 <Samu> if the oil is on land, the patch has no effect 19:17:16 <Samu> on or off, no effect 19:17:19 <ST2> guess the discussion it's about oil rigs, or we'll go to any other industry 19:17:28 <supermop> but that player is still 'blocking' the industry 19:17:35 <ST2> or better, water-bourne industries 19:17:55 <supermop> why do oil rigs get different rules on competition 19:18:39 <ST2> because they spawn on different way that other industries, when mulple per town 19:19:01 <ST2> more a reason to be treated differently 19:19:19 <andythenorth> so are you patching move-cargo-to-station or something? 19:19:30 <supermop> that argument has nothing to do with 'blocking' or competition 19:20:08 <Samu> i'm patching uint MoveGoodsToStation(CargoID type, uint amount, SourceType source_type, SourceID source_id, const StationList *all_stations, bool on_water) 19:20:12 <Samu> yes 19:20:27 <Samu> bool on_water is my invention :p 19:20:28 <supermop> oil rigs are different because CS thought they would be cute and novel to add a new gimmick to the later game 19:20:55 <andythenorth> you're not just checking for the station tile in the in the industry? 19:21:19 <andythenorth> industry layout has a tile in it 19:21:29 <andythenorth> can't remember the ID but it's special-cased 19:21:36 <supermop> there is basically no compelling reason to send helicopters there other than customers of the game might find it fanciful to see helicopters flying around, and there was no other case in which they have a use 19:22:11 <supermop> andythenorth: the patch seems to work 19:22:23 <supermop> question is not how, but why 19:22:30 <Samu> andythenorth: here's my patch https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77199&p=1193622#p1193622 you can see what it changes 19:23:44 <ST2> example: the Fishing grounds - makes more sense to a boat go there that a train load it some tiles away 19:24:05 *** Guest7845 is now known as Prof_Frink 19:24:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7847 19:25:04 <supermop> samu was concerned about the wording of the strings for options to control patch behavior, and my contention was that there were too many options, and that you would need a clear picture of how the patch would be used to better inform what settings to provide 19:26:05 * andythenorth back to Steeltown 19:26:06 <supermop> ST2: if you content that the transport company must go do the fishing themselves, then shouldn't the transport company also send carts down into the mineshafts? 19:26:30 <ST2> some months ago found a weird behaviour when IsOilRig(tile) returned true on bridge heads (endings) 19:26:32 <andythenorth> I want another cluster like this, but late-game http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8740/Steeltown.png 19:26:41 <andythenorth> so further up the Steel chain 19:26:57 <supermop> maybe a dock next to the fishing grounds is where the local fishermen bring their catch ashore 19:26:59 <andythenorth> vehicles does't deliver that 19:27:16 <Samu> supermop seems to want more settings :) 19:27:23 <supermop> and the contract with you to take it by reefer truck into the packing plant 19:27:30 <supermop> Samu: nope 19:27:39 <supermop> 2 at most, preferably 1 19:28:08 <Samu> do the behaviour "x", except for docks or helistations 19:28:41 <Samu> so you're allowed to make dock station but not a train station :) 19:29:05 <supermop> ST2: also we dont have mail trucks stop at every house in town, only enough central locations to cover the town 19:29:39 <supermop> Samu: that would never work - what if my station has both dock and train? 19:30:01 <supermop> what if the train is there but does not collect oil but some other cargo 19:30:09 <ST2> personally I don't like the join distant station parts feature - but, gladly, there's a setting to enable/disable it ^^ 19:30:41 <Samu> then i would need to go further deep in the code and make trains unable to load it 19:30:48 <Samu> why complicate :( 19:30:59 <supermop> i think you only need on and off 19:31:29 <supermop> ST2: https://imgur.com/a/XRrPC 19:31:31 <Samu> ok, i can do that, 1 setting to rule them all 19:31:41 <supermop> why should one be different than the others? 19:31:45 <Samu> rip customization 19:32:34 <andythenorth> 3 kinds of steel :P 19:32:40 * andythenorth looking for ideas 19:32:42 <supermop> Samu: proliferation of options and settings just makes things more confusing 19:32:59 <Cubey> How about one setting to control the behavior of water industries' built-in station and a second to control user built station near water industries 19:33:01 <Samu> i see, will try to reduce from 4 to 2 19:33:20 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 19:33:43 <supermop> either leave patch turned off, and players enforce their own constraints on their play style, or turn patch on, and enforce exclusive use of the built-in station 19:34:10 <Cubey> But what about controlling whether the built in station also draws cargo from nearby industries? 19:34:42 <Samu> two oil rigs together 19:34:45 <Samu> gotta test that 19:34:46 <supermop> Cubey: if you care about 1, you likely care about the other 19:35:25 <supermop> what i was prodding samu about, to explain his reason for the patch, was to see if there was actually any need at all for that nuance 19:35:47 <andythenorth> what about transfers? 19:35:51 <Cubey> Yeah like you said for the options to make sense, it's the use cases you need to think about 19:35:51 <ST2> only myself would put 27 servers using it :P 19:36:34 <supermop> if samu and ST2 say 'force use of the neutral station' and andy and i say 'allow player to build as they please' 19:36:46 <ST2> I didn't say to force 19:36:57 <ST2> for me, the default it's as it's now 19:37:01 <supermop> does anyone say 'force use of the neutral staion for case x, but not for case y'? 19:37:03 <ST2> but make it an option 19:37:30 <supermop> if no one needs that middle 3rd way, samu only needs 1 setting, not 2 or 4 19:37:39 <Cubey> I think the issue of neutral stations having a catchment area like normal stations is a separate question from whether the user is "forced" to use neutral stations or not 19:37:47 <ST2> there I'm not inside the details ^^ 19:37:54 <supermop> saves a lot of string writing 19:38:20 <Cubey> One or two options would both be better than four 19:38:24 <supermop> Cubey: it is a separate issue, but is there a use case for it having a separate setting? 19:38:39 <ST2> but yeah, I'll go with the KISS approach :D 19:38:59 <Cubey> Let's say I've already decided to prevent normal stations from being able to catch oil rigs' oil, so I enable that setting in the patch 19:39:11 <supermop> also yes, like andy said, there is the age old 'transfer hack' 19:39:14 <Cubey> Now I still have to decide whether I want oil rigs' neutral stations to catch fish from nearby fisheries 19:39:48 <Cubey> Personally I just wouldn't touch that option, I see no reason why you'd ever need to change it from the default behavior 19:39:53 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd 19:40:02 <supermop> i think if you think it looks wrong for a dock on shore to get oil, you probably think it looks wrong for fishing boats to stop at an oil platform 19:40:03 <Cubey> But it seems like Samu wanted this patch to also provide an option to change that behavior 19:40:54 <supermop> Samu: what happens if i want to unload a bunch of iron ore at an oil rig, for another boat to pick up 19:41:14 <Samu> do you mean with cargodist enabled? 19:41:21 <supermop> no, without 19:41:45 <Samu> you can unload there, it stays in the station 19:41:47 <Cubey> That seems to have nothing to do with this patch, which only controls what cargos are supplied and accepted by which stations 19:41:54 <Samu> some other player however, can go pick it up 19:42:01 <Samu> it's shared :8 19:43:06 <supermop> it might be better to remove the dock from oil rigs entirely 19:43:23 <supermop> and let players build their own moorings 19:43:32 <Samu> :| 19:43:52 <supermop> ie patch in a dock that is built at sea, like abouy 19:44:20 <supermop> that way player has their own control over station rating 19:44:36 <supermop> but would not block others 19:45:37 <Samu> "claim this industry for me" 19:45:50 <Samu> "oh, but not really just for me" 19:46:03 <Samu> sorry 19:49:52 <Samu> first come first served - first company sending a vehicle arriving at a neutral station will claim the station as theirs 19:50:12 <Samu> sounds like a neat idea, for another patch 19:50:58 <Samu> a bit drastic, though 19:51:09 <Samu> but... seems possible to do 20:00:04 <Samu> looks like i found a possible bug 20:00:41 <Samu> 2 oil rigs with the setting disabled, with a ship loading at one of them, will trigger production on both oil rigs 20:00:57 <Samu> let's see if i can split it appart 20:01:28 <ST2> known, because it has a station so, coverage too 20:01:55 <ST2> not no idea if intended ^^ 20:02:19 <Samu> my idea was to only make the ship trigger production on the industry it's on 20:02:42 <Samu> kinda like i did for acceptance 20:03:05 <Samu> if I did for acceptance, i should also do it for production 20:07:41 <Samu> MoveGoodsToStation needs moar editing 20:08:01 <Samu> i need to pass around the IndustryIndex to MoveGoodsToStation 20:08:11 <Samu> hmm wondering how am i doing tat 20:08:13 <Samu> that 20:11:20 <Samu> or maybe FindStationsAroundTiles 20:11:39 <Samu> make it not find certain station 20:14:39 *** Alberth has left #openttd 20:25:06 *** Guest7847 is now known as Prof_Frink 20:25:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7852 20:27:22 *** synchris has quit IRC 20:32:53 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 20:40:32 <andythenorth> what could go in an electrical chain? 20:40:39 <Wolf01> Electrons 20:40:50 <andythenorth> winning 20:41:10 *** fukT^ has joined #openttd 20:41:30 *** fukT^ has joined #openttd 20:41:54 *** fukT^ is now known as zerm 20:45:42 <andythenorth> want something like this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8740/Steeltown.png 20:45:46 <andythenorth> that then combines with steel 20:46:14 * andythenorth has been persuaded against chemicals chain :P 20:47:44 <Wolf01> Mmmh 20:48:47 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd 20:50:52 <zerm> Is there a way to get apt-get repositories to automatically update to 1.7.1? I'm new to linux (currently using lubuntu LTS 16.10), not sure if using sudo apt-get remove openttd* was sufficent to uninstall 1.5.3... my goal is to completely erase the game and all components and reinstall to latest version. Also, if I have to use binary, do I have to move the binary to where I want to install it before running commands? 20:51:33 <zerm> I know it's a rediculous question. Using https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=75261 as guide and have googled other stuff. Wondering if there's a updated repository I can point to. 20:52:12 <andythenorth> chemicals chain would give pvc, combined with copper for wire, then steel for machines 20:54:35 <andythenorth> http://www.bpf.co.uk/Data/Content/images/How%20is%20PVC%20Made.jpg 20:54:46 <Wolf01> Silicon, a lot of silicon 20:54:53 <Wolf01> Also rare earths 20:55:51 <Wolf01> And now, /me -> bed, tomorrow I need to get up early to sign the job contract 20:56:08 <Wolf01> 'night 20:56:11 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 20:56:50 <andythenorth> job contract :o 20:56:57 <andythenorth> wolf01 has left the building :) 20:57:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: PVC isn't yogurt pots, right? o_O 20:57:33 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:59:54 <zerm> i got it, thanks guys!!! 21:02:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: or bakelite? 21:03:08 <andythenorth> bakelite is resins? 21:03:37 <frosch123> it's the first plastic from syntetics 21:03:40 <frosch123> 1907 21:04:22 <andythenorth> I want to try two big complex chains 21:04:27 <andythenorth> there's enough room in cargos 21:04:30 <frosch123> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_plastic_development 21:05:18 <andythenorth> I don't think FIRS justifies another heavy industry economy, so it has to be this one :) 21:05:45 <andythenorth> chain 1, chain 2 -> goods, vehicles, maybe BDMT 21:05:59 <andythenorth> maybe packaging 21:06:12 <andythenorth> ports are fed by side products from the long chains 21:06:35 <andythenorth> ensp is a problem, it's a terrible pinnacle cargo 21:08:40 <andythenorth> need a primary that produces ensp :P 21:13:41 <supermop> buldozer farm 21:14:22 <supermop> lately i don't even use ensp 21:14:37 <supermop> = too much cargo to use 21:19:54 <andythenorth> interesting point 21:20:11 <andythenorth> ensp can be a helpful design constraint, but it's also a total pain in the arse :) 21:20:50 <andythenorth> plastic tankers https://www.veneziainc.com/divisions/plastic-resin-transport-hauling-services.html 21:25:44 <andythenorth> supermop: does this fit steeltown aesthetic, or no? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#chemical_plant 21:26:06 *** Guest7852 is now known as Prof_Frink 21:26:41 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7857 21:41:13 <supermop> andythenorth: largely 21:41:20 <supermop> has enough rust color 21:41:49 <supermop> smoke stacks look a bit modern 21:42:05 <supermop> force CC to dark grey before 1940? 21:42:48 <andythenorth> maybe :P 21:42:54 <supermop> distillation columns look good bolt-y 21:43:06 <andythenorth> coke oven -> coal tar -> medicine -> port/town? 21:43:51 <andythenorth> coal tar is on the World Health Organisation's list of essential medicines :P 21:43:53 <supermop> haha will you enforce acetaminophen/paracetamol/whatever aussies call it by region? 21:44:09 <andythenorth> got en-us and en-au :P 21:45:27 <supermop> panaadol 21:45:31 <supermop> panadol 21:45:44 <supermop> i remeber it being different that uk or us 21:49:11 <andythenorth> brand names 21:49:35 <supermop> huh. i could have sworn acetaminophen came from coal tar, but wikipedia doesn't mention it 21:49:38 * andythenorth took paracetamol and acetaminophen together for a period of time 21:49:45 <andythenorth> oops 21:49:53 <supermop> maybe was thinking of aspirin or something 21:49:57 <andythenorth> it's on the coal tar page 21:50:05 * andythenorth just closed it 21:50:27 <supermop> paracetamol has nothing about the industrial synthesis 21:51:35 <supermop> even the historical note is not very informative 21:53:36 <supermop> creosote? 21:53:59 <supermop> creosote+wood = ensp + bdmt 21:54:14 <supermop> i guess that is just like the lumber yard tho 21:55:25 <supermop> coal tar distillery - > medicine, shampoo, parking lot sealant, railroad ties 21:55:31 <andythenorth> that is the lumber yard :) 21:55:42 <andythenorth> it has a creosote kiln 21:57:01 <supermop> i had always assumed the 'chemicals' were either glue for plywood, or the green stuff they permeate 4x4s with to make deck posts 21:57:12 <andythenorth> could be any of those 21:57:23 <supermop> althought that green stuff is essentially creosote by use 21:57:38 <andythenorth> chemicals industry boggles my brain 21:57:45 <andythenorth> so many processes 21:57:57 <supermop> the stuff that comes from the lumber yard is not brown though - its blond like plywood 21:58:07 <andythenorth> this is true 21:58:12 <supermop> so is the suff that gets delivered there though 21:58:20 <andythenorth> doesn't do much eh 21:58:27 * andythenorth must sleep 21:58:35 <andythenorth> ultimate Steeltown must wait...again 21:58:40 <supermop> blond wood + chemicals = blond wood 21:58:51 <andythenorth> *superior* blond wood 21:58:55 <supermop> haha 21:59:10 <supermop> the chemicals are the brand labels they attach 21:59:10 <andythenorth> discussion of material honesty will have to wait for another day 21:59:14 <andythenorth> ha 21:59:15 <supermop> later dude 21:59:17 <andythenorth> bye 21:59:18 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:00:00 *** Defaultti has quit IRC 22:00:47 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 22:20:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 22:27:06 *** Guest7857 is now known as Prof_Frink 22:27:43 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7861 22:40:08 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:50:02 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 22:51:21 *** oskari89 has quit IRC 23:17:53 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 23:22:03 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:27:22 <Samu> I did it 23:27:23 <Samu> https://imgur.com/AluK43J 23:27:57 <Samu> ship is loading oil from only one oil rig, it doesn't trigger production of the other oil rig 23:28:07 *** Guest7861 is now known as Prof_Frink 23:28:18 <Samu> ST2: supermop :) 23:28:43 *** Prof_Frink is now known as Guest7863 23:33:27 <Samu> this one is tricky, because it is both the "oil rig" station and the "other station" at the same time 23:34:13 *** Laedek has quit IRC 23:34:43 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 23:34:44 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 23:35:29 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 23:35:32 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 23:35:53 <Samu> it's both settings 3 and 4 23:36:21 <Samu> i need to cut this to 2 settings 23:36:33 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 23:38:11 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 23:39:21 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 23:40:39 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 23:42:01 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 23:55:08 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 23:56:21 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 23:57:30 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd