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"lol" 08:15:38 <nielsm> re. commit messages, can someone elaborate on "change" vs "codechange" vs "update" vs "prepare" ? 08:16:19 <TrueBrain> haha, cool, I can command a Windows Docker from linux :) Okay, that makes shit easier :) 08:16:34 <TrueBrain> nielsm: easiest is to look through the history to get an idea for that 08:16:46 <TrueBrain> but Codechange are changes that only affect code; no function change what-so-ever 08:16:49 <TrueBrain> (refactoring, moving, etc) 08:17:00 <TrueBrain> Update is rarely for code, mostly for shit like languages, readmes, etc 08:17:05 <TrueBrain> Prepare I have never seen use 08:17:17 <TrueBrain> Change is for when there is a function change to your code change .. give or take 08:17:19 <TrueBrain> not that black/white 08:18:22 <nielsm> here I have a rev that basically just adds some parameters to a function prototype (in all the music drivers) to prepare for an actual feature add, which is only possible in the new win32 driver 08:18:35 <nielsm> does that even warrant a separate commit? 08:18:50 <nielsm> -"basically" 08:19:10 <TrueBrain> commits should be a logic separation between changes so the reviewer can easily and trivially understand the change 08:19:25 <TrueBrain> up to you to fill in that line 08:23:41 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 08:47:06 <peter1138> Problem with that particular change is the added parameters are only relevant to the one driver. 08:47:39 <peter1138> I do wonder if we should somehow replace all those music drivers with a built-in synth. 08:47:52 <peter1138> It would be a consistent experience then. 08:48:54 <peter1138> Mind you, someone would then complain that they can't use their expensive hardware synth :p 08:50:03 <nielsm> I would 08:50:06 <nielsm> for one! 08:50:39 <nielsm> I got a roland sc-55, ie. the synth the music was written for, and hell do I want to use it 08:51:42 <nielsm> (in fact a large part of the reason I even started doing these changes was that I had trouble getting either win32 or dmusic driver to use it) 08:51:54 <nielsm> (on win10) 08:54:02 *** tycoondemon has quit IRC 09:06:03 <LordAro> https://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style#Commit_message also here 09:06:23 <peter1138> On Linux MIDI is especially awkward. 09:06:36 <peter1138> Windows at least has the default soft-synth. 09:08:22 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd 09:11:57 *** tycoondemon has quit IRC 09:15:00 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 09:26:16 <andythenorth> can I be arsed to script buy menu sprites? 09:26:20 <andythenorth> or shall I just draw them :P 09:26:49 <peter1138> Does it need anything special? 09:27:05 <andythenorth> well I generate the spritesheets 09:27:07 <peter1138> Doesn't the game already just use the correct sprite? :p 09:27:18 <andythenorth> oh this is just for articulated vehicles 09:27:20 <peter1138> You're going to say "HAHAHA SO NAIVE" aren't you 09:27:23 <peter1138> Hmm 09:27:28 <peter1138> o_O 09:27:33 <andythenorth> articulated vehicles don't exist in buy menu is it 09:27:44 <peter1138> Script if you can, a repeatable automated build is nice. 09:27:56 <peter1138> Jenkinsfile it etc :p 09:27:59 <andythenorth> I tried it with sprite layers 09:28:06 <andythenorth> but I don't know if they work in purchase menu 09:28:09 <andythenorth> I could read src I guess 09:28:14 <Sacro> timidity++ 09:28:30 <andythenorth> meh 09:28:46 <andythenorth> I automate a bit, see what happens 09:28:53 <Sacro> TrueBrain: how'd you do windows docker in Linux? 09:30:27 <TrueBrain> with a Windows Docker host ofc :) 09:32:24 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 09:34:39 *** som89_ has joined #openttd 09:36:50 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd 09:39:07 *** som89 has quit IRC 09:46:57 *** Smedles_ has quit IRC 09:50:24 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 09:55:31 <nielsm> git diff 09:55:35 <nielsm> uh wrong window 09:55:57 <TrueBrain> just happy you didnt stash us 10:01:58 *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd 10:04:26 <LordAro> git reset --hard 10:13:26 <TrueBrain> I still wonder about the DrawWindows patch .. we now have 2 functions that do something with the real-time .. 10:13:28 <TrueBrain> that feels off 10:13:38 <TrueBrain> guess I need to install MSVC after all :P 10:15:28 <peter1138> It makes my graphical glitching worse :( 10:16:00 <TrueBrain> yeah, we dont have stuff like vsync 10:16:08 <TrueBrain> and 66 Hz is a very odd frequency 10:16:23 <TrueBrain> so it is very likely it is an issue for a lot of people honestly 10:16:51 <TrueBrain> current code is also broken, just less likely to show :) 10:17:03 <peter1138> Yes, GDI can't do vsync. 10:17:33 <peter1138> SDL may be able to, certainly with OpenGL. 10:18:16 <TrueBrain> normally it is not that relevant .. double-buffer and let it up to the driver itself 10:18:31 <TrueBrain> but it is also weird that Window stuff is influenced by FF 10:18:49 <peter1138> Yes, would be nice to replace the stuff that uses game ticks incorrectly. 10:18:54 <peter1138> There's quite a lot that does it. 10:19:06 <peter1138> FF should just make the game faster, not all the windows :p 10:19:20 <peter1138> We don't enable any double-buffering. 10:19:59 <TrueBrain> so there is an isuse :D 10:20:16 <TrueBrain> dunno .. feels this needs another approach, but I cannot really put my finger on it 10:20:18 <peter1138> Well, our use of GDI should be but it seems not to be. 10:20:27 <TrueBrain> not having touched OpenTTD in years has something to do with that :D 10:20:33 <peter1138> My mouse cursor disappears if I move it too fast. 10:20:54 <TrueBrain> this patch just makes it much more obvious there is more broken 10:20:59 <peter1138> It's temporal of course, everything in the backing buffer is fine. 10:21:03 <peter1138> Yes, exactly. 10:21:06 <TrueBrain> but it is hard to say what to fix, without looking into it myself 10:21:30 <TrueBrain> and I hate asking others: please look into this, without giving any clues :D 10:21:32 <peter1138> I wondered how about switching to DirectX/OpenGL, rendering to a surface and then swapping that. 10:21:37 <peter1138> -how 10:22:02 <TrueBrain> you have been talking about OpenGL ever since I met you :D 10:22:32 <TrueBrain> having proper OpenGL/DirectX would solve a few issues left and right 10:22:41 <TrueBrain> also shit like fullscreen, borderless, resolutions, etc 10:22:51 <TrueBrain> I cannot believe that if I go fullscreen, it switches to 640x480 10:22:58 <TrueBrain> that is such a 1990 thing to do 10:23:12 <peter1138> :D 10:23:13 <TrueBrain> all modern games switch to your native resoltion 10:23:19 <TrueBrain> meh .. first lunch time 10:23:25 <peter1138> Yeah but my initial OpenGL stuff was, well, learning about it. 10:23:34 <peter1138> And based on simple tutorials which did everything wrong as well. 10:27:18 <andythenorth> maybe we could get modern 10:27:20 <andythenorth> for 2001 10:28:44 <peter1138> Although OpenRCT2's OpenGL renderer also appears to use the renderer to draw individual sprites as well. 10:29:19 *** justiceBEAVER has joined #openttd 10:29:21 <peter1138> michi has a nearly working OpenGL patch 10:29:28 <peter1138> It did crash for me :p 10:33:32 <andythenorth> automate buy menu sprites more? 10:33:47 <andythenorth> or exercise and go shopping? :P 10:38:28 <andythenorth> hmm, liveries could be controlled by invisible wagons 10:38:40 <andythenorth> add them to the rear of the train 10:38:44 <andythenorth> 'livery 1' etc 10:39:10 <andythenorth> this idea came from a stupid bug I just found in Horse :) 10:48:54 <nielsm> just make sure the invisible wagon is sufficiently tangible inside the depot, so you can actually remove it again 10:50:04 <andythenorth> it could flash animated colours :P 10:56:18 <peter1138> Why's my train taking ages to load? 10:59:25 <nielsm> you need to upgrade it with an SSD 11:04:28 *** tokai has joined #openttd 11:04:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 11:06:29 <peter1138> oic 11:11:37 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 11:18:45 <TrueBrain> the moment that the Antimalware starts to scan your docker over and over again :D 11:20:08 <TrueBrain> 15 GB of Docker image to run MSVC .... ugh 11:20:24 <TrueBrain> 10 GB is the base image 11:21:25 <peter1138> btw, I'd say changes to use _realtime_ticks for ui stuff should be a separate commit 11:21:54 <TrueBrain> I think the solution is to take out realtime_ticks stuff, and put them all in a single function or something 11:22:04 <TrueBrain> so it is clear what is based on the realtime 11:22:08 <TrueBrain> and what is based on the gametime 11:22:15 <TrueBrain> than think hard about what is currently where 11:22:19 <peter1138> Eh, the code is spread around in window functions. 11:22:24 <TrueBrain> exactly 11:22:34 <peter1138> Using window OnTick() events. 11:22:51 <TrueBrain> as if we can split out what is realtime and what is not, it becomes more clear what is going on 11:22:55 <peter1138> Simplest might be OnRealtimeTick() 11:23:05 <TrueBrain> sounds good to me 11:23:26 <nielsm> yeah that could be useful for some things 11:24:15 <nielsm> when I was still trying to fix things in the dmusic driver I ran into not wanting to update the volume control value too often and kind of wanted to throttle it based on real time but didn't find a good method 11:24:22 <nielsm> (this is of course moot now) 11:26:57 <peter1138> And then midi volume on linux does nothing ;( 11:28:05 <nielsm> yeah what I had to do to control midi volume in dmusic was manually keep track of individual channel volumes and inject channel volume change messages to scale everything 11:28:21 <nielsm> same thing the new win32 driver does actually 11:28:37 <nielsm> (and same thing the driver in dos ttd did) 11:29:18 <peter1138> o_O 11:30:03 <peter1138> So should we start parsing and processing the MIDI ourselves? 11:30:16 <peter1138> That might end up making things simpler. extmidi is a bad concept. 11:30:18 <nielsm> of course if you inject too many volume change messages in a midi stream getting sent to a hardware synth over a classic ~38 kbps midi connection you risk running out of bandwidth 11:30:24 <nielsm> so I had to throttle it 11:30:50 <peter1138> nielsm, that's easy, only set the volume on mouse up, or every 0.25 seconds or so 11:30:59 <peter1138> er... so throttle it, exactly as you did :p 11:31:14 <peter1138> mouse up only is annoying, some games do that for sliders :( 11:31:25 <peter1138> You know know what you're going get! 11:32:12 <nielsm> you want to process midi yourself? I got you covered :D https://github.com/nielsmh/OpenTTD/blob/newmusic/src/music/midifile.cpp 11:34:11 <TrueBrain> right, guess it is time to install MSVC build tools .. 11:35:56 *** som89 has joined #openttd 11:39:20 <LordAro> -rw-r----- 1 root adm 5270022379820 Apr 27 10:33 error.log.1 11:39:22 <LordAro> oops. 11:39:28 <TrueBrain> lolzzz 11:39:47 *** som89_ has quit IRC 11:39:49 <TrueBrain> okay, the win32 video driver is a bit weird .. there is a for (;;) {} with no break, yet there is code below it 11:39:50 <nielsm> better compress it 11:40:03 <TrueBrain> pretty sure that code is never going to be called ... 11:42:26 <peter1138> I... don't see that. 11:43:20 <TrueBrain> the main loop? 11:43:25 <TrueBrain> _draw_threaded if statement 11:44:36 <TrueBrain> line 1329 in win32_v.cpp 11:44:44 <peter1138> Ah right, I see what you mean now. 11:44:53 <TrueBrain> that is some sweet dead-code right there 11:44:59 <peter1138> There's a return which should be a break. 11:45:25 <TrueBrain> yup 11:46:53 <TrueBrain> hmm .. CLion really wants a CMake before it wants to work 11:46:55 <TrueBrain> meh :) 11:47:03 <TrueBrain> owh well, enough for today, going to enjoy the weather for a bit :) 11:47:44 <peter1138> It's raining :( 11:47:48 * andythenorth tries to use tab key to speed up compile 11:47:53 <andythenorth> "ffwd" 11:47:54 <andythenorth> :( 11:48:04 <peter1138> I assume, like Minecraft, you all have the same weather... 11:48:15 <LordAro> lots of rain here 11:48:35 <peter1138> Simutrans has a day/night cycle. There's a minute of game time when you can see fuck all. 11:48:40 <peter1138> Useful feature that. 11:49:16 <andythenorth> we could map the palette to 1? 11:49:27 <andythenorth> probably great 11:50:01 <andythenorth> the upside of automation is that it saves loads of time 11:50:11 <andythenorth> the downside is that it automates adding bugs :P 11:50:22 <peter1138> At least the bugs are consistent. 11:51:19 <andythenorth> there is that 11:51:49 <andythenorth> I just wonder if this is wise :P https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p5y4w0vuj/n1nl9w/raw 11:51:57 <andythenorth> "probably fine" 11:53:06 <andythenorth> BBLs, tesco 11:53:09 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 12:05:10 *** synchris has joined #openttd 12:28:44 <nielsm> hmm I thought all my commit messages should be good now, what's it complaining about? 12:35:25 *** som89_ has joined #openttd 12:38:13 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 12:38:35 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 12:39:02 *** som89 has quit IRC 12:39:20 <peter1138> Would be nice if the checker would display the bad message, and commit hash. 12:41:30 *** Gja has joined #openttd 12:41:36 <nielsm> definitely 12:41:44 <nielsm> hacking on it locally to do just that atm 12:44:58 <nielsm> seems I accidentally a space before the : 12:48:48 <LordAro> file an issue! 12:54:23 <peter1138> Oh yes, I see it now :p 12:55:30 <nielsm> is this a good solution? https://gist.github.com/nielsmh/08ae4217f3e0510d38be89357e941de8 12:55:38 <nielsm> (I'm not good at shell scripting) 12:56:51 <nielsm> gives me output like this: http://0x0.st/sQgl.txt 13:01:02 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 13:05:30 *** Gja has quit IRC 13:05:52 <peter1138> Erm, I dunno what you changed :p 13:06:16 <nielsm> echoes commit ids as they are checked 13:06:36 <nielsm> instead of failing on the first error, sets a flag and continues checking the rest, then returns error flag at the end 13:11:53 <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/pull/5 13:13:14 * nielsm performs a little dance 13:13:19 <nielsm> "The commit looks good" 13:15:23 <nielsm> ...oh, right 13:15:36 <nielsm> errors in the non-windows midi drivers 13:16:25 <peter1138> Premature little dance :p 13:21:03 <nielsm> let's try that again 13:28:38 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 13:32:29 <ZehMatt_> Its somewhat tempting to clean up all the video driver code 13:32:42 <ZehMatt_> most of it is somehow duplicate code 13:33:11 * nielsm puts on Daft Punk 13:33:14 <nielsm> ONE MORE TIME~! 13:33:46 <LordAro> ZehMatt_: doit 13:34:04 <ZehMatt_> well still having the one PR ongoing 13:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> ZehMatt_: make an abstract video driver factory? :p 13:39:46 *** Gja has joined #openttd 13:47:35 *** som89_ has quit IRC 13:50:08 *** som89 has joined #openttd 13:56:12 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 13:56:35 <TrueBrain> [14:39] <peter1138> Would be nice if the checker would display the bad message, and commit hash. <- feel free to make a PR for the git-hook repo :) 13:56:53 <TrueBrain> owh, someone already did :P 13:56:57 <TrueBrain> should read up before commenting :D 13:57:32 <TrueBrain> and no, I missed the rain twice; lovely ride in the sun for me :) 13:58:29 *** ToffeeYogurtPots_ has joined #openttd 13:59:10 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 14:00:12 <nielsm> "All checks have passed" wee 14:01:07 <TrueBrain> gratz :) 14:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> what about the czechs then? 14:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (anyone got the feeling my jokes got worse over the last year or two?) 14:10:37 <LordAro> only two? 14:11:52 <TrueBrain> yippie, basics of CMake works :) 14:13:43 <LordAro> :o 14:14:33 <TrueBrain> now to figure out how to get stuff like strgen running :) 14:17:23 <TrueBrain> now it auto-detects vcpkg stuff :D No more fiddling! :D 14:17:47 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 14:17:55 <Sacro> Bye Eddi 14:25:08 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 14:28:13 <Pikka> nyow 14:28:15 *** Pikka has quit IRC 14:30:48 <TrueBrain> bit weird what Pikka said: "if andythenorth is joining, I am going to leave; really sick of all those images about trains"; not sure what that was about 14:30:58 <andythenorth> yeah I read the logs 14:31:01 <TrueBrain> :D 14:31:03 <TrueBrain> <3 andythenorth :) 14:31:14 <andythenorth> I know, that pikka 14:31:35 <andythenorth> shall I close some issues? 14:31:43 <TrueBrain> depends how :P 14:31:45 <andythenorth> anything to avoid drawing \ / views for trains :P 14:32:01 <TrueBrain> really happy the new OSX builds seem to fix a few OSX issues :) 14:32:12 <andythenorth> I haven't tried it properly 14:32:29 <andythenorth> I have a cheap tester, I'll get him to play tomorrow 14:32:41 <andythenorth> he doesn't eat or drink when he's playing games, so it's a saving overall 14:32:48 <TrueBrain> the mouse weirdness seems gone 14:32:50 <TrueBrain> which is good 14:32:52 <andythenorth> oh good 14:33:03 <andythenorth> I wonder if it's stopped locking the cursor to left screen edge too 14:33:09 <andythenorth> that's kind of annoying 14:33:14 <andythenorth> quite unplayable 14:33:18 <TrueBrain> lemme know if it does :) 14:33:24 <TrueBrain> if it doesn't, tell LordAro 14:33:28 <andythenorth> ok 14:33:37 <TrueBrain> I dont care about stuff that is not working :P 14:33:51 <LordAro> :< 14:33:55 <TrueBrain> now how am I going to do strgen in CMake I wonder .. 14:34:18 <andythenorth> your problems are same as mine, just several levels lower :P 14:35:04 <LordAro> TrueBrain: custom commands, i imagine 14:35:21 <TrueBrain> yeah .. but that doesnt result in code now does it :D 14:36:05 <TrueBrain> for example, how do I get it to compile strgen before it runs the custom command .. hmm 14:36:06 <LordAro> https://github.com/FreeRCT/FreeRCT/blob/master/graphics/rcd/CMakeLists.txt#L39 is what i wrote a long time ago 14:36:21 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: somebody definitely has a patch for it 14:36:29 <LordAro> ah, that question is apparently answered with https://github.com/FreeRCT/FreeRCT/blob/master/CMakeLists.txt#L27 14:36:38 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: sadly, that always is the case in this community .. bit annoying tbfh :P 14:36:49 <TrueBrain> so LordAro, why isnt this in OpenTTD yet? 14:37:19 <LordAro> because i'm still not sure i like cmake :p 14:37:20 <Rubidium> because he closed the CMake build ticket for OpenTTD? ;) 14:37:55 <TrueBrain> LordAro: your personally preference is irrelevant to me :P 14:38:10 <TrueBrain> this custom pile of shit really needs replacing :) 14:38:11 <LordAro> configure scripts have the advantage of portability 14:38:15 <TrueBrain> (I can call it that; I wrote it) 14:38:24 <LordAro> even autotools generated configure scripts have that 14:38:27 <TrueBrain> all OSes we support, have CMake support 14:38:44 <LordAro> with cmake, you need cmake to build 14:39:01 <TrueBrain> so what is next? Are we going to write our own compiler, because it is more portable? 14:39:11 <LordAro> don't be silly :p 14:39:13 <TrueBrain> current "configure" system is 14 years old .... 14:39:19 <TrueBrain> it needs replacement 14:39:44 <Rubidium> *explitive* is time really going that fast? 14:39:46 <TrueBrain> and cmake won that race 14:39:55 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yes 14:40:33 <andythenorth> time 14:40:37 <andythenorth> is how I got to be 40 years old 14:40:44 <andythenorth> I was less when I started ottding 14:40:53 <LordAro> Rubidium: hey, i've been here 9 years now :p 14:41:17 <LordAro> TrueBrain: well, go ahead then 14:41:32 <LordAro> autotools avoids an extra (hard) dependency, is all 14:41:39 <TrueBrain> autotools really is a big no-no 14:41:46 <TrueBrain> they really lost the race, for so many reasons 14:41:55 <TrueBrain> but having Linux and Windows closer together, is really a plus 14:42:04 <TrueBrain> means we can stop generating MSVC files for 2017+ 14:42:13 <LordAro> fair enough 14:42:20 <TrueBrain> and they don't avoid a dependency at all btw 14:42:29 <TrueBrain> I have more systems without autotools than with :) 14:42:30 <LordAro> i don't have any particular opposition to cmake, just a general unease :p 14:42:48 <TrueBrain> I am also trying to get more and more systems without gcc 14:42:56 <TrueBrain> (but with clang, for example) 14:43:06 <Rubidium> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/66bbf336c6af7353ef0aeed58002c46543b30635 <- kewl... I'm talking to 2021 now. Didn't know IRC had that in it ;) 14:43:38 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you really want to play this game? :) 14:44:24 <TrueBrain> hmm, the import of course doesnt let me step into that branch 14:44:37 <TrueBrain> and I am not annoyed your name is on that commit :P 14:44:48 <TrueBrain> not even shared credits! 14:47:29 <andythenorth> train 50 is not my finest work 14:47:30 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9022/something_is_wrong_horse.png 14:47:40 <andythenorth> should look more like train 52 14:47:48 <andythenorth> oops 14:50:12 <andythenorth> $someone should fix it :P 14:50:18 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: okay, 2006-07-30 was the first commit to that branch; guess we call that the starting date :P 14:53:21 <TrueBrain> okay, cmake now first compiles strgen .. right .. it fails horrible .. endian shit .. at least in concept that works :) 14:53:24 <TrueBrain> sweet :) 14:53:34 <Rubidium> still amazing that it managed to function well for so long 14:53:56 <TrueBrain> same .. as it was written with little bash knowledge, and a lot crash&burn moments 14:54:08 <TrueBrain> but once it got stable .. it seems nobody touched it enough for it to break :P 14:54:14 <TrueBrain> like this big tower build on sticks 14:55:05 <peter1138> What was that other build system... hmm... 14:55:25 <TrueBrain> before config.lib? 14:55:28 <TrueBrain> plain Makefile :P 14:55:37 <TrueBrain> nowedays you have autoconf and cmake 14:55:40 <peter1138> Oh I remember. waf. 14:55:42 <peter1138> Urgh. 14:55:43 <TrueBrain> where cmake can address a few more targets 14:55:48 <TrueBrain> like Makefile, ninja, and a few more 14:56:08 <TrueBrain> that is the other nice thing if cmake works .. means you can switch to ninja if you like :) 14:56:11 <peter1138> waf had the concept that you distributed waf with your project. 14:56:15 <peter1138> But it was python. 14:56:19 <peter1138> But it was bytecode. 14:56:39 <TrueBrain> sounds like the sound a dog makes tbfh 14:57:14 <peter1138> I gave up with it and used... guess what? 14:57:40 <peter1138> (Yeah, cmake) 14:57:56 <TrueBrain> the more I use cmake, the more I like it; especially as more people start to use it 14:58:08 <TrueBrain> pkg-config was a good idea, just not enough people used it for a long time 14:58:17 <peter1138> Hmm, this was 8/9 years ago ;) 14:58:37 <TrueBrain> find_package in cmake replaces pkg-config .. but enough packages support it for it to be useful 14:58:48 <TrueBrain> I remember in 2006 that pkg-config was only supported by 1 or 2 libraries 14:58:52 <TrueBrain> and even than they tend to break 14:59:03 <TrueBrain> like one of them added -pthread, no matter what youc ompiler was 14:59:17 <peter1138> heh 15:00:40 *** rocky1138 has joined #openttd 15:01:50 <TrueBrain> but now, even on Windows the find_package(png) worked :D 15:03:16 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd 15:03:46 *** rocky1138 has quit IRC 15:04:56 * Rubidium wonders to what extend endian_check is actually really needed; seems like there's a preprocessor flag for it 15:05:14 <TrueBrain> which one? 15:06:48 <Rubidium> __BYTE_ORDER__ 15:07:25 <Rubidium> https://sourceforge.net/p/predef/wiki/Endianness/ 15:07:25 <TrueBrain> something to try :) 15:07:34 <TrueBrain> removes a lot of silly code :) 15:07:48 <TrueBrain> are there systems that dont have htons etc defined I wonder :P 15:08:58 * andythenorth fixes train 50 with 'return []' 15:09:05 <andythenorth> hmm but now nml complains 15:09:12 <andythenorth> one step forward, one step back 15:10:51 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: only ones not conforming to POSIX.1-2001 15:11:15 <TrueBrain> given we are switching to stdc++11 or higher, can I assume that wont be a problem? :D 15:11:20 <TrueBrain> so much code that can be removed :P 15:11:22 <TrueBrain> SO MUCH CODE 15:12:22 * andythenorth has to make more MOAR CODE :( 15:12:30 <andythenorth> too much conditional shit 15:12:37 <andythenorth> time to split the template 15:12:58 <LordAro> TrueBrain: hype 15:13:16 <TrueBrain> don't hype! PROGRAM! 15:13:26 <LordAro> def detect_missing_files_by_reading_error_messages(): 15:13:28 <LordAro> hmm. 15:14:33 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I can't think of any reasonably recent OS with UI that would have support for C++ compiled binaries but no support htons 15:14:51 <TrueBrain> exactly 15:14:57 <TrueBrain> so we can drop the whole endian-check-shit 15:15:54 <Sacro> But I run TTD on Windows 98SE still :( 15:16:14 <nielsm> what compiler supports C++11 and also win9x targets? 15:16:22 <Rubidium> Sacro: that still falls under reasonably recent ;) 15:16:42 <nielsm> and yes htons is in winsock 1 which arrived in win95 15:16:45 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: gfx_type.hpp's going to be the largest obstacle 15:17:03 <TrueBrain> who has a patch for that? 15:17:36 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: we can fix that with __BYTE_ORDER__ for now I guess 15:17:52 <Sacro> Rubidium: foiled 15:18:06 <Sacro> I've not played OpenTTD in ages to be fair, busy working 15:18:13 <Sacro> Is PBIMTTD still a thing? 15:18:32 <TrueBrain> does he now imply we are not working? Hmmmmmmmm 15:18:56 <Sacro> You know I'm here to troll 15:19:00 <Sacro> Same as the last 2 decades 15:19:08 <TrueBrain> at least you now admit it :D 15:19:10 <TrueBrain> <3 15:19:12 <FLHerne> I thought meson was supposed to be the new shiny vs CMake/autotools :P 15:19:18 <nielsm> also keep in mind that any recent compiler (worth using) should recognize common patterns for assembling/disassembling values from integers into specific byte orders 15:19:44 <nielsm> and translate it into a known-fast machine code equivalent for the platform 15:19:48 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yep, though test for #if __BYTE_ORDER__ == __ORDER_LITTLE_ENDIAN__ (i.e. invert the lines), so if __BYTE_ORDER__ and __ORDER_LITTLE_ENDIAN__ are not defined, then it still assumes it being little endian (which would be the right choice most of the time anyway) 15:20:11 <TrueBrain> I expect a PR any minute now? :D 15:20:43 <TrueBrain> +can 15:21:03 * Sacro considers writing a daylength patch 15:21:30 <FLHerne> Definitely aren't enough of those 15:22:10 <Sacro> FLHerne: mine was the first 15:22:59 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: you can have the expectation, but at the moment I don't have the environment to make one 15:23:20 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 15:23:23 <TrueBrain> guess you have some work to do when you get home :P :P :P 15:25:16 <LordAro> ^ 15:25:23 <TrueBrain> goes for you too LordAro :P 15:25:28 <LordAro> *fine* 15:25:33 <TrueBrain> good boy :) 15:25:54 <TrueBrain> nah, tomorrow I will fiddle with getting strgen to work via cmake without endian stuff, make a branch for it, see how that goes 15:25:56 <LordAro> got to deal with some Ada for another 2 hours first though 15:26:03 <TrueBrain> good luck :) 15:26:15 <TrueBrain> guess we need to make a simple cmake parser for sources.list :) 15:27:19 <LordAro> the hardest bit will be handling the #if 15:27:32 <LordAro> could run cpp on it :p 15:27:32 <TrueBrain> yup 15:27:35 <TrueBrain> haha 15:27:39 <TrueBrain> sounds like a plan 15:27:47 <TrueBrain> even if wehave to modify sources.list a bit, as long as the others understand it again 15:27:54 <LordAro> wouldn't be very cross platform though 15:28:17 <LordAro> or... would it? msvc must have a preprocessor somewhere 15:28:32 <TrueBrain> no clue honestly 15:28:52 <TrueBrain> but in generate(.vbs) has a parser for sources.list .. so I am sure we can figure something out there :) 15:30:16 <LordAro> is the goal not to get rid of the generate scripts entirely? 15:30:22 <TrueBrain> over time, sure 15:30:28 <TrueBrain> but never go for the goal, always make a step towards it 15:30:47 <TrueBrain> BE AGILE! :D 15:31:22 <Sacro> openttd/bionic 1.7.1-1build1 amd64 15:31:23 <nielsm> okay theoretically I think you could write a module for msbuild that allows you to read an external source to generate items for the compile 15:31:26 <Sacro> Will I get away with it in the office 15:31:41 <nielsm> which would mean it could read source.list directly and produce something 15:31:56 <nielsm> except that wouldn't cover the .vcxproj.filters stuff which is handled differently iirc 15:31:59 <TrueBrain> nielsm: only we are talking about cmake; not msbuild :) 15:32:15 <nielsm> <LordAro> or... would it? msvc must have a preprocessor somewhere 15:32:55 <nielsm> but I think either vs2017 or maybe the next version might have direct support for cmake? 15:32:56 <TrueBrain> if you go that road, build a custom application to do the conversion for you 15:32:59 <TrueBrain> I mean ... ;) 15:33:15 <Sacro> I think 2017 does 15:33:16 <TrueBrain> happy you caught on; VS2017 supports CMake, the whole reason I started this ;) 15:33:32 <Sacro> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/ide/cmake-tools-for-visual-cpp 15:33:41 <TrueBrain> the whole of vcpkg uses it 15:33:55 <nielsm> but what would need a preprocessor then? 15:33:57 <TrueBrain> blathijs: ICU Layout needs replacing 15:34:06 <TrueBrain> blathijs: there are drop-in replacements for it 15:34:11 <TrueBrain> blathijs: but OpenTTD currently still needs it :) 15:34:21 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:34:21 <TrueBrain> blathijs: LordAro keeps telling me he is working on it .. he is just slacking :P 15:34:41 <Sacro> TrueBrain: are you trying to bring everyone else out the woodwork? 15:34:42 <TrueBrain> (and yes, 18.04 cannot compile OpenTTD :D) 15:34:54 <Sacro> Can it not? I've not tried 15:34:58 <LordAro> last i got to was deciding pango wasn't worth the effort, and going for harfbuzz instead 15:35:01 <TrueBrain> Sacro: no, blathijs asked a question in another channel; thought it was better to answer him here :) 15:35:16 <TrueBrain> LordAro: that should be an easy fix. Vendor icu-le-hb, and go go go :) 15:35:26 <TrueBrain> Sacro: 18.04 comes with ICU 60, which doesnt have the Layout engine 15:35:43 <Sacro> Ahh, I didn't know that, I don't do any icu dev anyway 15:36:04 <LordAro> TrueBrain: yeah, but that's the hacky fix 15:36:07 <LordAro> i want to do it properly 15:36:18 <blathijs> Let me repeat it 15:36:19 <TrueBrain> LordAro: but we dont have 3 years; 18.04 is due this week? :) 15:36:22 <blathijs> Anyone know how much we really need the ICU ParagraphLayout? Seems we use it for wordwrapping with right-to-left support at quick glance 15:36:25 <blathijs> Apparently support for it is a bit dodgy in ICU: the layout framework it uses was deprecated for buggyness, removed from icu and is now developed as a separate library apparently, which significantly complicates compiling the Debian packages (since the external library depends on ICU, whose ParagraphLayout part again depends on the external lib). Apparently we're the only ones in Debian that 15:36:26 <LordAro> TrueBrain: yesterday, actually :p 15:36:27 <blathijs> actually uses the ParagraphLayout, so things might get easier if we wouldn't :-p 15:36:31 <blathijs> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=894159#15 15:36:56 <TrueBrain> LordAro: so if wecan fix this by vendoring some code and adding hb as dep, and be done in a weekend; later we can do it properly :) 15:37:09 <LordAro> blathijs: iirc, it's only "required" for RTL texts 15:37:12 <blathijs> Note that that post suggests asking the OpenTTD folks, but I've not been asked so far (I just stumbled upon this post by accident) 15:38:35 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 15:38:36 <blathijs> LordAro: What would be alternatives? SKipping ParagraphLayout and using icu-le-hb directly? 15:38:46 <blathijs> Or completely implmenting it ourselves? 15:38:58 <Rubidium> the latter is bonkers 15:39:10 <LordAro> icu-le-hb is the shortterm make-it-work fix 15:39:20 <LordAro> longer term, porting to "native" harfbuzz 15:39:25 <Rubidium> as it's not only for the order of the characters, but also for the joining of glyphs 15:40:23 <blathijs> Oh, I thought icu-le-hb and harfbuzz were the same. I haven't really read up yet :-) 15:40:44 <TrueBrain> icu-le-hb is een drop-in replacement for the Layout stuff in ICU to work with HB 15:40:56 <TrueBrain> it basically implements the ICU interface on top of HB 15:41:10 <TrueBrain> its very clever tbh :) 15:41:58 <LordAro> incidentally, there's no debian package for it 15:42:05 <LordAro> which would complicate things 15:42:08 <TrueBrain> like I said, I would vendor ice-le-hb 15:42:15 <TrueBrain> it is very small, very simple 15:42:29 <LordAro> no licencing issues? 15:42:49 <TrueBrain> possibly we need to extend our license that we have a vendored package with another license 15:43:22 <andythenorth> karma will repay me for this next comment 15:43:30 <TrueBrain> we already have that solved because of squirrel 15:43:33 <TrueBrain> so license cannot be a problem :) 15:43:34 <andythenorth> my proxy, temp, placeholder sprite to find a size 15:43:43 <andythenorth> is better than some of the release sets I'm looking at :P 15:43:49 <andythenorth> I will suffer for my arrogance ;P 15:44:22 <TrueBrain> LordAro: and ice-le-hb license allows vendoring 15:44:41 <TrueBrain> so from what I can see, it is just a matter of dropping ice-le-hb in 3rdparty folder 15:44:57 <TrueBrain> add HB as dependency, upgrade ICU, and lalalaaa 15:45:05 <TrueBrain> I keep writing ice-le-hb .. it is icu-le-hb 15:45:10 <TrueBrain> dunno why my fingers do this .. 15:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you're secretly wanting some ice cream 15:47:42 <Sacro> Or a german train 15:48:30 <peter1138> Not so secretly. 15:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> from Lippe to Bremen? 15:50:18 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, LE seems to stand for "Lemgo" (in Lippe) 15:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i somehow don't think they have an ICE connection :p 15:52:08 <peter1138> Well, it's Friday and I go home in 8 minutes. 15:52:28 <peter1138> Maybe I will check out this icu-le-hb library. 15:52:36 <TrueBrain> please do :) 15:52:40 <peter1138> pango itself doesn't seem to be the right thing to use. 15:52:42 <TrueBrain> solves a lot of dependency issues :) 15:53:03 <peter1138> The thing with "joining of glyphs" is... do we need that? 15:53:12 <peter1138> Kerning I guess? 15:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> arabic? 15:53:24 <peter1138> Hmm 15:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause> some languages are full of these things 15:53:29 <peter1138> Ah, ok 15:54:00 <peter1138> Fortunately harfbuzz has a vcpkg port :) 15:54:06 <TrueBrain> :D 16:05:49 *** Gja has quit IRC 16:06:05 *** Gja has joined #openttd 16:09:22 *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC 16:09:36 *** Tharbakim has quit IRC 16:12:58 *** Tharbakim has joined #openttd 16:17:18 <nielsm> what is the proper way to use media/baseset/translations.awk, is there a make target for it or something? 16:20:13 <blathijs> TrueBrain: LordAro: Sorry, was away for a bit 16:21:12 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Ah, I see about icu-le-hb. The bug I linked above suggests that there will be a Debian package for icu-le-hb, which is what they'll be using to get ParagraphLayout working on the upcoming ICU version 16:25:17 <blathijs> Apparently the layout stuff was removed from ICU 58, but Debian is still at 57, so this was not a problem before 16:29:18 <blathijs> TrueBrain: In any case, I think that icu-le-hb won't help directly (either in Debian or vendored), since we use ParagraphLayout, which is *not* in in icu-le-hb, but still in icu for some reason 16:32:29 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:34:00 <andythenorth> should I play OpenTTD? 16:34:13 <peter1138> blathijs, ParagraphLayout is still in ICU. 16:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> actually play the game? what blasphemy 16:34:29 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 16:34:36 <peter1138> Play? 16:34:49 <peter1138> Hmm, this Qwertee t-shirt is... very thin :S 16:35:42 <nielsm> I split my GUI changes for music into a separate PR, which I think should be easier to review ;) 16:35:51 <peter1138> Thanks 16:36:18 <nielsm> and the rest is also much more cleaned now 16:36:39 <nielsm> I can't think of any more immediate improvements 16:37:16 <nielsm> apart from having the (untested) parts actually tested so those notes can be removed 16:37:29 <peter1138> Actually tested or just compiled? 16:37:50 <peter1138> Hmm, cold. Might put the heating on. 16:38:00 <nielsm> actually tested 16:38:19 <nielsm> the big thing is whether you can get the dos version music playing on non-windows systems 16:38:32 <nielsm> the CI compiles do pass for it 16:38:57 <andythenorth> peter1138: get your big coat 16:40:25 <peter1138> Problem is it's too big. 16:40:46 <LordAro> cut it in half! 16:40:54 <peter1138> Not quite that big :p 16:41:00 <LordAro> cut a bit of it! 16:41:20 <peter1138> Losing weight is expensive ;( 16:43:23 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 16:44:10 <andythenorth> let's try NoCarGoal again 16:44:22 <andythenorth> can't remember if I hacked it in place to fix the cargos :P 16:44:33 *** Wacko1976 has joined #openttd 16:45:43 <andythenorth> yup, I broke it 16:45:49 <andythenorth> oops 16:48:39 <blathijs> peter1138: Yes, that's what I said, ParagraphLayout is in ICU, not icu-le-hb, which creates a weird circular dependency. Moving it to icu-le-hb would seem sensible, since that seems to be the only lib to offer the layout enging dependencies needed by ParagraphLayout. 16:49:52 <peter1138> I don't think there's any circular dependency, you can just link both. 16:49:52 *** glx has joined #openttd 16:49:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 16:50:46 <peter1138> > TESCO 16:55:32 <blathijs> peter1138: icu-le-hb (and/or Harfbuzz) depends on ICU, so to build ParagraphLayout you need to build ICU without ParagraphLayout first, then build icu-le-hb, then build again with ParagraphLayout AFAIU 16:55:42 <blathijs> peter1138: http://userguide.icu-project.org/layoutengine/paragraph 16:55:45 <blathijs> TESCO? 16:56:07 <blathijs> Hm, some store apparently 17:01:00 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 17:02:27 <TrueBrain> blathijs: people suggest that icu-le-hb resolves the LayoutEngine problem that is no longer in ICU; I suggest we just give it a try, and see what it does 17:02:38 <TrueBrain> from everything I read, HB really did their best to make transition as easy as possible 17:07:15 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 17:21:12 *** som89 has quit IRC 17:28:35 *** Pikka has joined #openttd 17:29:17 <Thedarkb-X40> I'm trying to configure the Company Value GS 17:32:17 <Thedarkb-X40> I'm confused as to what units it actually uses. 17:40:20 *** som89 has joined #openttd 17:42:17 <blathijs> TrueBrain: I think we do not actually need to change anything to try that, as long as the Debian icu package does the right dance to compile ParagraphLayout against icu-le-hb 17:42:50 <blathijs> TrueBrain: But the icu maintainer seems to imply that it would be better if that dance was not required, which would be the case if OpenTTD stopped using ParagraphLayout 17:43:16 <TrueBrain> sorry to break it to you, but Debian is not our only customer :D 17:43:36 <TrueBrain> we need a fix that works on every OS :) 17:43:53 <TrueBrain> give peter1138 a bit of time to try it out, see what happens 17:44:40 <andythenorth> did anyone patch roadstops that don't need orientation? 17:44:49 <andythenorth> cos it's kind of silly having to choose a direction 17:45:15 <glx> feel free to make a PR andythenorth :) 17:45:17 <blathijs> TrueBrain: True, but it would indeed seem that no changes are required on the OpenTTD side in any case, only in building icu (but I guess for some platforms, building icu is done by us, not the OS vendor indeed) 17:45:48 <peter1138> andythenorth, you mean automatically picking the right orientation? 17:45:51 <andythenorth> yair 17:46:12 <glx> I agree it's a smart idea 17:46:14 <andythenorth> there are only a couple of valid bit patterns 17:46:21 <peter1138> TrueBrain, to be fair, it sounds like blathijs has done more reading on it than me now ;) 17:46:31 <andythenorth> if they're not valid, don't build 17:46:39 <TrueBrain> blathijs: I try to switch that we build not 3rd party what so ever .. not ICU, not anything else :P 17:47:44 <glx> TrueBrain: I think vs140 and vs141 vcprojx will need an upgrade for vcpkg 17:48:00 <TrueBrain> glx: that statement is very vague :) 17:48:03 <glx> else it's a pain to use static stuff 17:48:11 <TrueBrain> you mean the library names? 17:48:22 <TrueBrain> I just renamed the bunch :P 17:48:24 <TrueBrain> but yes 17:48:38 <TrueBrain> I think cmake is more promising, and make that work with vcpkg 17:48:42 <blathijs> LordAro: A while ago, you said you looked at pango but it was not worth it and going for harfbuzz directly would be better. But AFAUI Harfbuzz doesn't offer directionality detection and doesn't offer linebreaking, (which Pango and ICU with Paragraphlayout does), so would you suggeste we implement that ourselves on top of Harfbuzz? 17:48:43 <TrueBrain> than we can just deprecated vs141+ :) 17:49:00 <glx> not only the library names, by default vcpkg integration only support dynamic 17:49:25 <TrueBrain> yes; you have to tell vcpkg to use the static triplet 17:49:39 <TrueBrain> not sure if adding stuff to vcprojx is worth it 17:49:39 <Thedarkb-X40> I think there's something broken with Company Value GS 17:49:47 *** Wacko1976 has quit IRC 17:49:57 * blathijs is off for a bit. I'll see if I can ping the ICU maintainer, maybe he has an idea how this ICU-loop-mess is going to be fixed on the longer run, or if there are alternative libraries to consider porting to. 17:49:58 <glx> so x64-windows-static stuff is still searched in x64-windows and not found 17:50:19 <TrueBrain> VcpkgTriplet=x64-windows-static 17:50:22 <TrueBrain> is needed as option 17:50:27 <TrueBrain> euh, property they are called :P 17:50:33 <peter1138> blathijs, I looked briefly into Pango, it appears very tidied in with gdk rendering surfaces. I may have been looking at the wrong thing though. 17:50:37 <glx> in our project files yes 17:50:39 <TrueBrain> vcpkg has a page about how to do static glx :) 17:50:39 <peter1138> *tied in 17:50:45 <TrueBrain> well, not project perse .. just somewhere 17:50:57 <TrueBrain> but I think it is not worth adding to our project, and that adding cmake support is easier/more flexible 17:51:01 <Thedarkb-X40> It works but the units are wrong. 17:51:23 <TrueBrain> Thedarkb-X40: "units are wrong". This is very vague. A bit more info really helps :) 17:51:50 <Thedarkb-X40> It says it goes up in 1000 pound increments. 17:52:11 <glx> https://github.com/Microsoft/vcpkg/blob/master/docs/users/integration.md#with-msbuild 17:52:24 <glx> it says to put it in our vcprojx 17:52:58 <TrueBrain> lol, thought they said to put it in your personal thingy 17:53:16 <Thedarkb-X40> But in practice it goes up in £500 increments. 17:53:19 <Thedarkb-X40> It's annoying. 17:53:20 <TrueBrain> anyway, I dont really mind/care :) What everworks for you glx :) 17:53:28 <peter1138> Thedarkb-X40, did you check your currency settings? 17:53:38 <Thedarkb-X40> It's in pounds. 17:53:42 <TrueBrain> glx: the buildstuff just adds /p:VcpkgTriplet= to msbuild :D 17:54:05 <glx> not VS friendly ;) 17:54:32 <peter1138> This cmake stuff, does that somehow replace the vs project file? 17:54:38 <TrueBrain> but if you are going to make Vcpkg fixes, possibly think about a way to also fix the library names :) 17:54:39 <peter1138> Seems odd if it does. 17:54:44 <TrueBrain> it does, completely 17:54:50 <TrueBrain> as far as I understand, anyway 17:55:29 <glx> but cmake uses msbuild 17:55:44 <glx> and I think cmake generates project files too 17:56:14 <TrueBrain> from cmake, you can generate anything basically :) 17:56:27 <TrueBrain> but it does it for you, is the idea: ) 17:56:36 <peter1138> Cool 17:56:39 <nielsm> I think you have a stub vcxproj that loads the cmake and generates a full msbuild project 18:03:52 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 18:04:48 <Thedarkb-X40> I don't know why I'm spelling out £ 18:05:02 <Thedarkb-X40> I have an Irish keyboard layout. 18:05:06 <Thedarkb-X40> I have $€£ 18:07:10 <Thedarkb-X40> The company value GS just pauses the game in singleplayer. 18:07:20 <Thedarkb-X40> Will it reset it in multiplayer? 18:07:34 <TrueBrain> who is the author of this GS? 18:08:55 <Thedarkb-X40> I think I should probably switch machines if I'm going to watch youtube videos and run openTTD at the same time. 18:08:57 <Thedarkb-X40> Client: HexChat 2.12.4 • OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 • CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1.40GHz (1.20GHz) • Memory: Physical: 1.2 GiB Total (434.3 MiB Free) Swap: 945.3 MiB Total (740.5 MiB Free) • Storage: 14.6 GB / 31.8 GB (17.2 GB Free) • VGA: Intel Corporation 82852/855GM Integrated Graphics Device @ Intel Corporation 82852/82855 GM/GME/PM/GMV Processor to I/O Contr 18:08:57 <Thedarkb-X40> oller • Uptime: 1d 22h 58m 7s 18:09:18 <TrueBrain> no need for that spam plz 18:09:50 <Thedarkb-X40> Oh, sorry, it's just /sysinfo in hexchat. 18:10:04 <TrueBrain> even if it is a crown on top of a monkey :) 18:10:05 <ST2> eh, he forgot the credit card number, pin, etc xD 18:10:19 <TrueBrain> ghehe :D 18:10:36 <Thedarkb-X40> It was xarick 18:11:00 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 18:11:12 <peter1138> That's... a pretty basic machine :p 18:11:33 <peter1138> Hmm, I have more RAM than you have storage, nice. 18:11:47 <Thedarkb-X40> This only takes 1.8 inch hard drives. 18:11:52 <Thedarkb-X40> That's a dead format. 18:12:22 <Thedarkb-X40> So I put in an msata drive in an adapter with blue tack. 18:14:16 <LordAro> blathijs: i have to say i don't know much about this. I was initially turned on to pango by frosch123, but after looking at it some, and looking at its dependencies (glib, among others), decided to try harfbuzz instead. Documentation for either library is basically nonexistent, so i've not really got any idea what features either support 18:19:57 *** tokai has quit IRC 18:20:30 *** tokai has joined #openttd 18:20:30 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 18:20:39 * andythenorth found the original soundtrack 18:20:43 <andythenorth> sounds ok on mac midi 18:23:41 <frosch123> LordAro: blathijs: initially i looked into harfbuzz and its icu wrapper, but concluded that it does not implement what we need. it only layouts a single line, no paragraphs. pango looked like the higher level one, with quite some documnetation, but it needs adjustment to out custom renderer 18:25:17 <TrueBrain> who thought it would be difficult, something as simple as letters :D 18:25:23 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 18:28:27 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 18:28:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 18:35:17 *** tokai has quit IRC 18:36:29 * andythenorth wants 'close dock' 18:36:33 <andythenorth> so I can relocate it 18:36:42 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 18:39:25 *** tokai has joined #openttd 18:39:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 18:41:08 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 18:41:26 <peter1138> Well 18:41:29 <blathijs> frosch123: Yeah, that's also my understanding. However, apparently the paragraph layout still exists in ICU, but it's a mess wrt dependencies. As for pango, I suspect it has a lot of dependencies indeed, which might not make it a good candidate just for wordwrapping... 18:41:32 <peter1138> And platforms? 18:41:43 <peter1138> Road stops? 18:42:03 <peter1138> Yeah, closing any sort of station tile would be useful sometimes. 18:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel we have had this discussion already 18:42:16 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, stations or icu? or both :p 18:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the stations 18:42:41 <peter1138> There's probably a patch for it. 18:42:46 <peter1138> Isn't there airport closing? 18:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we included that 18:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not sure 18:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> because the discussion was endless 18:43:21 <peter1138> Heh 18:43:27 <peter1138> I can't remember why I might've objected to it. 18:43:40 <peter1138> Can't have things that make life easier, eh? 18:43:42 <frosch123> blathijs: which system do you have in mind, which would run a openttd client and does not have pango? 18:43:51 <peter1138> Windows :) 18:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> whether we should include it like it was, or extend it to some or all the things you listed above 18:43:55 <peter1138> DOS 18:44:04 <peter1138> Is OS/2 still around? hehe 18:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> do we still have a morphos user? 18:44:31 <frosch123> we got some os/2 patches 2 years ago 18:44:53 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 18:44:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 18:45:05 <peter1138> Hmm, I guess the thing is "Close airport" works on the whole thing, and is station-window based 18:45:08 <frosch123> anyway, with c++14 we likely drop all of them including 9x 18:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we dropped morphos when we dropped gcc 2.ancient, but there were talks that "soon" there might be an update to gcc 4 18:45:29 <andythenorth> airport closing is a thing 18:45:33 <andythenorth> and works well 18:45:39 <blathijs> frosch123: Dunno, I don't have a clear view of the targets OpenTTD still supports :-) 18:45:47 <Thedarkb-X40> I don't know about dropping OS/2 18:45:55 <andythenorth> the problem with docks is that all the ships turn around when you demolish the dock to relocate it 18:45:58 <Thedarkb-X40> ArcaOS is a thing. 18:46:01 <andythenorth> and ship routes are often long 18:46:20 <peter1138> Yeah, but I've had issues relocating roadstops loads of times too 18:46:24 <peter1138> Platforms are a bit easier 18:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try build while paused? 18:46:38 <peter1138> In MP? 18:47:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: probably works, haven't tried 18:47:11 <andythenorth> good enough for today 18:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody plays MP 18:47:17 <peter1138> :( 18:47:25 <andythenorth> multi-docks would solve this too :P 18:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause> like <1% of all players 18:47:34 <peter1138> Yes. I had a patc.... oh 18:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> :p 18:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> think maybe we should drop MP? would solve loads of problems :p 18:49:12 <andythenorth> halloumi, rice and chips 18:49:17 <andythenorth> do I miss any major food groups? 18:49:42 <peter1138> "We dropped MP to let you use more NewGRFs" 18:49:42 <frosch123> TrueBrain: what are your thoughts on https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/pull/5 ? is the no-output-on-success a reasonable thing? or is it silly since eints and jenkins do not care? 18:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like anything involving meat? 18:49:58 <peter1138> "But then we dropped NewGRFs because modern games use scripting languages instead" 18:50:03 <peter1138> "With no specs" 18:50:14 <andythenorth> drop trains 18:50:54 <andythenorth> why does site search 'tt-forums' search ebay in my chrome :P 18:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> '); drop table trains; --? 18:51:02 <peter1138> Rice and chips is basically one food group though. 18:51:12 <peter1138> Good ol' starch. 18:51:26 <andythenorth> might as well have both 18:51:43 <andythenorth> @seen zuu 18:51:44 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: zuu was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 54 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Zuu> Oh and I think this whole OpenTTD moving to git is a good thing by the way. 18:51:47 *** tokai has quit IRC 18:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd argue "chips" is ambiguous 18:51:55 <andythenorth> fries 18:52:27 <andythenorth> NoCarGoal should have an option to delete my money 18:52:35 <andythenorth> I usually win it by mass-funding industries 18:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you can, like, disable funding? 18:53:14 <andythenorth> then it can't be won 18:53:20 <andythenorth> well, not at the goal levels I set 18:53:23 <andythenorth> there's some interim 18:53:40 * andythenorth wonders if GS can read fund costs 18:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> probably, but what would it do with it? 18:54:25 *** tokai has joined #openttd 18:54:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 18:54:53 <andythenorth> remove money so that you can only fund occasionally 18:55:00 <andythenorth> winning by funding is a valid tactic 18:55:14 <andythenorth> but capping money would incentivise transporting more than just the goal cargos 18:55:41 <andythenorth> I could just put industry prices up :P 19:00:42 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 19:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "balancing", which this game is generally terrible at 19:08:42 <Thedarkb-X40> There's a reason why planes are disabled on my server. 19:09:39 <peter1138> Infrastructure costs? 19:10:20 <andythenorth> should I PR this? o_O https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1168354#p1168354 19:14:48 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 19:18:46 *** Lap_op has joined #openttd 19:20:26 <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is normal in CIs that errors are marked as "wrong". So a message always to the stderr seems wrong 19:20:31 <TrueBrain> to the stdout is not a problem 19:21:14 <TrueBrain> frosch123: "no output on success", what do you mean exactly? 19:21:17 <Lap_op> is this a MP game? 19:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> allegedly 19:22:18 <TrueBrain> you can go through life SP just fine 19:22:20 <frosch123> TrueBrain: "stdout" is never visible. So "no output on success" means "no message to stderr, if there is no problem" 19:22:33 <Lap_op> TDM FFA CTF COOP? 19:22:59 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I would very much prefer that any message on stderr is because of an error 19:23:13 <TrueBrain> stdout is for everything else 19:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that kind of classification applies well :p 19:23:28 <andythenorth> Lap_op: http://www.openttdcoop.org/ 19:23:32 <TrueBrain> (if that answers your question :D) 19:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> + 19:23:48 <frosch123> i take it as agreement :p 19:23:52 <Lap_op> so its COOP 19:23:56 <andythenorth> Lap_op: other MP modes are available 19:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that was actually my keyboard slipping away :p 19:24:09 <andythenorth> there are goal servers that have a patched version of the game 19:24:12 <andythenorth> somewhere on reddit 19:24:14 <frosch123> Lap_op: how do you classify minecraft? 19:24:14 <TrueBrain> frosch123: :D I am not fully sure I understand you, but yeah .. we seem to be saying the same :) The patch needs a fix, is my conclusion :) 19:24:22 <andythenorth> citybuilder and so on 19:24:31 <Lap_op> FFA? 19:24:46 <Lap_op> never played minecraft 19:24:59 <frosch123> Lap_op: in that case there are different servers. some do coop, some do ffa, some do ladder 19:24:59 <Lap_op> MMORPG 19:25:26 <andythenorth> not so much MM 19:25:30 <andythenorth> or RPG 19:25:44 <Lap_op> minecraft is MMORPG as far as i can gather 19:25:46 <frosch123> rpg in ottd is only singleplayer 19:26:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: just O? :) 19:26:09 <andythenorth> pretty much :) 19:26:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen people around here acting like it's an RPG :p 19:26:45 <andythenorth> "I am Brunel" 19:26:52 <andythenorth> hmm 19:26:57 <andythenorth> "|'m Spartacus" 19:27:14 <Pikka> openttd CTF sounds fun though 19:27:24 <andythenorth> is Pikka :O 19:27:34 <TrueBrain> first to the industry wins .. guess it is CTF :P 19:27:43 <andythenorth> TrueBrain said Pikka had rage quit 19:28:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth believed what TrueBrain said 19:28:11 <andythenorth> but the logs said it too 19:28:12 <Lap_op> if there was a network tycoon mod CTF would make plenty of sence 19:28:39 <Lap_op> sense 19:28:52 * andythenorth wonders about a CTF gamescript 19:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe something asymmetric like in Team Fortress where one company must connect two industries and delver some cargo, and the other company must do all in its power to prevent it? 19:29:19 <peter1138> Nah, it's too easy to prevent it. 19:29:20 <andythenorth> I was thinking of forcing a start on opposite sides of the map 19:29:20 <TrueBrain> some MPs feel like that :P 19:29:24 <andythenorth> and capture the centre 19:29:33 <andythenorth> but with high building costs or something 19:29:40 <andythenorth> can GS modify building costs for part of the map? 19:29:42 <Lap_op> were can i get the bots to play for me? 19:29:56 *** UncleCJ has quit IRC 19:29:57 <andythenorth> Lap_op: there are AIs 19:30:02 <andythenorth> downloadable content 19:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> how about OpenTTDota? 19:30:06 <andythenorth> not sure if any servers run AIs 19:30:19 <Lap_op> AIbot 19:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't have a bot in a player company 19:31:14 <Pikka> can't you, Eddi? 19:31:22 <Lap_op> you can if you run the server 19:31:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: there's like one line of code to prevent it :p 19:31:48 <Pikka> oops :) 19:32:00 <Lap_op> since its opensource you could edit that line out 19:32:14 <Lap_op> big deal 19:32:20 <Pikka> you can switch into ai companies in singleplayer 19:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Lap_op: well technically, even any client could comment that line out 19:32:55 <Pikka> but unless the ai is very simple or was written to be cooperative, it's unlikely to be very playable... :) 19:33:09 <Lap_op> so the AI is readily available 19:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no real way for the server to make sure the commands it receives are from a human 19:34:15 <peter1138> Wasn't the AI system conceived so that AIs could fight it out? 19:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly there are rate limits 19:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think that's where we got Rondje from :p 19:35:13 <Lap_op> you just need the AI to start easy and keeps growing to tackle the real player at the most infuriating point of his develpment plan 19:35:42 <Lap_op> you know the boiling frogs metodology 19:35:54 <LordAro> which is an urban myth 19:36:17 <Lap_op> what? 19:36:27 <LordAro> the boiling frogs thing 19:36:28 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: http://rbijker.net/openttd/endian_1.diff & http://rbijker.net/openttd/endian_2.diff (seems to work for me; haven't and can't test it on big endian though). First is the change, second is some cleanup 19:36:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there once was a patch that placed a sign like "hey i'm watching you", whereever a player did something 19:36:52 <Lap_op> you realize boiling frogs is a metaphore? 19:36:57 <LordAro> the scientist had to basically lobotomise the frogs to stop them from jumping out of the water 19:37:00 <LordAro> yea 19:37:29 <Pikka> Eddi: I want AIs to have access to the chat (in SP too), so they can more easily trash-talk 19:37:33 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: nice :D Now make a PR out of it so I can review it properly :D 19:37:35 <Lap_op> it makes perfect sense 19:37:55 <Pikka> signs and the debug log just aren't enough :P 19:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: would that look anything like the chat in Goat Simulator RPG? 19:38:30 <Lap_op> must be smiling faces season over here 19:39:06 <Pikka> it's always a happy place in here, Lap_op 19:40:11 <Lap_op> who can you teall its always happy if you dont have comparison point? 19:41:03 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 19:41:18 <Eddi|zuHause> if the tree falls in the wood and makes no sound, how can you know nobody is watching? 19:41:19 <Lap_op> acording to einstatein everything is relative 19:41:34 <Pikka> there's plenty to compare it to. I think most of us have experience of life outside this irc channel... 19:41:52 <LordAro> outside? i don't understand 19:42:18 <Thedarkb-X40> Outside.... you mean the OpenTTD subreddit, right? 19:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he means other channels? 19:42:22 <Lap_op> Eddi|zuHause: you probablly think you are deaf 19:42:35 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, Goat MMO Simulator :D 19:42:36 <Lap_op> Eddi|zuHause: you probablly think you gone deaf 19:42:45 <peter1138> The positioning of the word Simulator is important. 19:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: ah that's the name 19:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i forgot 19:43:12 <peter1138> The trash talk was quite convincing. 19:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i played it on a free weekend, was about all of Goat Simulator i could suffer :p 19:43:57 <Thedarkb-X40> That must be it. 19:44:00 <Thedarkb-X40> #/r/openttd 19:44:03 <Thedarkb-X40> That's outside. 19:44:12 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, oh yes, it's crap 19:44:33 <andythenorth> I made a goat game once 19:44:45 <TrueBrain> nobody played it? 19:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone remember when there were half a dozen Moorhuhn games? 19:45:55 <Lap_op> :( 19:46:07 <Thedarkb-X40> LGR has a boxed copy of goat sim. 19:46:12 <Thedarkb-X40> God only knows where that's from. 19:46:39 <Lap_op> this channel is becoming sad all of a sudden 19:47:32 <Lap_op> whats about all this goat talk? 19:47:43 <peter1138> GOATS! 19:47:44 <TrueBrain> you do know which channel you joined, right? 19:47:53 <andythenorth> OpenGTD 19:49:03 <Lap_op> ive seen a movie about goats 19:49:40 <Lap_op> haven't you? 19:50:39 <Lap_op> The Men Who Stare at Goats 19:51:25 <Lap_op> are you still here? 19:52:02 <Lap_op> seems like this is the only live channel on this network 19:52:09 <peter1138> Hmm, if I add GUI sprites to the game, should I put them in openttdgui.png or a separate image? 19:52:18 <andythenorth> is the movie any good? 19:52:22 <andythenorth> I read the book 19:52:28 <peter1138> I guess in the same image is how we've always done it. 19:52:37 <andythenorth> seems trad 19:52:39 <Lap_op> is the book anygood? 19:52:42 <frosch123> peter1138: if you add them to the ottdgui action5, also add them to openttdgui.png imo 19:53:18 <peter1138> Is there such a thing as an image diff? :D 19:53:20 <andythenorth> Lap_op: book is ok 19:53:29 <andythenorth> peter1138: in photoshop, yes :P 19:53:34 <andythenorth> it doesn't do what you want though 19:53:39 <andythenorth> you could write one in PIL 19:54:28 <peter1138> The image you sent me is nearly twice the size. 19:54:44 <andythenorth> possibly terrible compression 19:54:56 <andythenorth> let me see 19:55:21 <andythenorth> photoshop has a habit of bloating pngs if not kept on a leash 19:56:00 <andythenorth> peter1138: how big is it for you in KB? 19:56:13 <peter1138> Ah, the layer modes don't work in indexed mode. 19:56:40 <peter1138> 26KB vs 43KB 19:56:50 <peter1138> I reexported it in Gimp and it's now 26KB 19:57:00 <Thedarkb-X40> one of my neighbours has a goat. 19:57:02 <andythenorth> yeah I got the same in photoshop 19:57:06 <Thedarkb-X40> It looks angry all the time. 19:57:12 <andythenorth> let's hope it's supposed to be DOS palette eh :P 19:57:33 <Thedarkb-X40> Imagine OpenTTD in EGA 19:57:47 <peter1138> Hmm, which palette though? 19:57:58 <Thedarkb-X40> That awful one used by sopwith 19:58:08 <Thedarkb-X40> Some CGA games looked very good. 19:58:13 <peter1138> Hmm, actually it had a 64 colour mode. Hmm. 19:58:13 <Thedarkb-X40> Like digger. 19:59:52 <andythenorth> proper graphics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvguXRnlMZE 19:59:59 <glx> TrueBrain: using vcpkg static libs (except icu still from useful-6.0) openttd.exe x64 release is 13.4MB 20:00:07 <andythenorth> look at the refresh rate :P 20:00:25 <TrueBrain> glx: hmm .. so it is either ICU, or VS2017 ... 20:00:29 <TrueBrain> closing in on the issue :D 20:00:44 <TrueBrain> tomorrow I will see if I can locally build it on VS2017 20:01:33 <peter1138> andythenorth, my BBC Micro had a hardware flaw: in Mode 2, colour 6 defaulted to green instead of cyan. 20:01:43 <andythenorth> ugh 20:01:49 <peter1138> It could be fixed by updating the palette, but of course, nothing ever did that. 20:01:55 <peter1138> It made jcbdigger a bit harder 20:01:57 <peter1138> and citadel 20:01:58 <andythenorth> I think that game caused HEQS :P 20:05:14 <peter1138> Warning on sprite 1533 (level 1). 20:05:19 <peter1138> Wow, that's useful. 20:07:07 <frosch123> yes, that warning is the reason i think we should drop renum 20:07:43 <frosch123> too much chicken/egg for just getting sprite 0 right 20:08:04 <andythenorth> do I need boats with more capacity? :P http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9023/sam_bigger.png 20:09:28 <peter1138> Hmm, sprite 0 is 0 as it should be. 20:10:50 <frosch123> we only need renum to put the "number of sprites in the grf" into sprite 0 20:10:56 <peter1138> multidocks! 20:11:07 <peter1138> Ah 20:11:25 <frosch123> we always get the renum warning "you added more ottd gui sprites, than renum thinks ottd expects" 20:11:40 <frosch123> which is a bit stupid :p 20:11:43 <peter1138> could we just disable the warning? 20:11:49 <peter1138> (which i've done for now) 20:12:05 <frosch123> if there is such option, it would make sense 20:12:17 <peter1138> It's kinda correct but yeah, makes adding things harder. 20:13:02 *** glx has quit IRC 20:15:17 *** glx has joined #openttd 20:15:17 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 20:17:39 <peter1138> andythenorth, damn, those icons are right for the group window but the livery window ones are a bit larger ;( 20:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> SimCity 1 was available as EGA game 20:17:44 <peter1138> yay consistency 20:17:50 <andythenorth> peter1138: yay 20:17:58 <andythenorth> want me to do something? 20:18:10 <Thedarkb-X40> I can't understand why everyone used shitty palettes on EGA? 20:18:23 <glx> no choice 20:18:47 <peter1138> Thedarkb-X40, the palette could only be changed in 640x350 mode. 20:18:50 <andythenorth> looks like livery window icons are same size as toolbar 20:18:53 <Thedarkb-X40> Ah 20:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "EGA" for me always meant 64 colours 20:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what paletes you mean 20:19:10 <Thedarkb-X40> I was thinking because a few CGA games look good. 20:19:23 <peter1138> EGA has 16 colours, but in 640x350 those colours could be chosen from a total of 64 colours. 20:19:28 <andythenorth> group window icons are some arbitrary amount smaller :P 20:19:56 <andythenorth> the proportions are bad on the group window icons anyway :P 20:20:04 <peter1138> 18x18 there, for some reason 20:20:05 <andythenorth> they're too narrow 20:20:12 <peter1138> Maybe we should just pad them to 20x20 like the rest? 20:20:16 <andythenorth> I would 20:20:21 <andythenorth> patch grows :P 20:20:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure there was also a way to display 64 colours at the same time... but my memory might be off after all this time 20:20:30 <andythenorth> do it in trunk :P 20:20:38 *** som89_ has joined #openttd 20:20:40 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I thought so too but it seems not. 20:20:58 <Thedarkb-X40> I didn't realise you could only change the palette in 640x350 20:21:13 <peter1138> Thedarkb-X40, it's not something that's relevant now :) 20:21:17 <peter1138> I looked it up! 20:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also almost definitely also a way to change palette in text mode 20:21:35 <Thedarkb-X40> I can remember doing that in QBASIC. 20:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly with one fewer also 20:21:42 <Thedarkb-X40> On a CGA though. 20:21:49 <Thedarkb-X40> CGA with a monochrome screen. 20:21:55 <Thedarkb-X40> Which is basically just useless. 20:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> CGA was weird, you had 3 palettes of 4 colours? 20:22:23 <peter1138> Yes. 20:22:32 <peter1138> Fixed palettes. Wonderful. 20:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and most people used the one with the weird pink 20:22:42 <Thedarkb-X40> Yup 20:22:50 <Thedarkb-X40> Except for Windmill software. 20:22:51 <peter1138> Yeah, "white", cyan and magenta was the default. 20:22:58 <Thedarkb-X40> They could make CGA look good. 20:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there was white in that 20:23:21 <peter1138> Rarely saw red, cyan and white. 20:23:30 <peter1138> And the other one was red green and yellow. 20:23:34 <peter1138> Because RASTAAAA 20:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also one with a brown? 20:23:41 <peter1138> Nope. 20:23:56 <peter1138> Hmm, I think there may have been dark and light versions then. 20:23:58 <peter1138> Cos you are right 20:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but VGA was also a bit silly 20:24:23 <Eddi|zuHause> because it somehow lost the colour flexibility from EGA? 20:24:37 *** som89 has quit IRC 20:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and 256 colours were only available with super low res 20:24:50 <peter1138> Yes, there were dark and light versions. 20:25:11 <peter1138> Yes, because there was not enough memory for 256 colours in high-res. 20:25:27 <peter1138> VGA had 256KB. 20:25:38 <glx> like the cpc and its 16 colours and big pixels 20:25:40 <peter1138> 8bpp in 640x480 is more than that. 20:25:51 <peter1138> Also 16 colour mode was some horrible planar thing. 20:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but somehow the EGA-way of defining colours was also not available in VGA, so you had the fixed 16 colours 20:26:23 <peter1138> I think it may have been. 20:26:27 <peter1138> But nothing used it. 20:26:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well any VGA card you could run in EGA mode 20:26:53 <peter1138> "The 640×480 16-color and 320×200 256-color modes had fully redefinable palettes, with each entry selectable from within an 18-bit (262,144-color) RGB table" 20:26:56 <peter1138> Hmm. 20:28:57 <peter1138> And then there was MCGA. 20:29:02 <peter1138> Wow, this all totally relevant. 20:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i suppose some games did use that for animated colours 20:29:39 <peter1138> Hmm, Windows Store version of OpenTTD. I wonder what's involved with that. 20:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there was a forum topic a la "don't give money to this person" 20:30:11 <glx> I think orudge tried to talk to MS about it 20:30:25 <glx> but I'm not sure 20:31:19 <peter1138> Well, MCGA looked the same as the 256 colour VGA mode, but subtle differences behind the scenes. 20:31:57 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, erm, well, there's a forum post asking for OpenTTD on the store. I just wondered what's involved in making that. 20:32:10 <nielsm> biggest challenge in a windows store version will probably be file handling, both downloads, savegames, and perhaps screenshots and the like 20:32:27 <peter1138> I'm sure Windows Store titles can download things. 20:32:35 <nielsm> sure they can, it's where they store them 20:32:40 <peter1138> They probably have a sandboxes local file storage, surely? 20:32:41 <nielsm> and what parts of the FS they can access 20:32:55 <nielsm> you can't just fopen() random things 20:32:56 <peter1138> Doesn't need anything other than its own storage. 20:33:24 <glx> I think they have limited local storage space 20:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: openttd can easily be configured where to store files other than "Documents" 20:34:04 <nielsm> I'm not saying it will be a gigantic challenge, just that it will probably be the part that requires most care compared to everything else 20:34:35 <glx> anyway store apps have some limitations compared to desktop apps 20:35:04 <peter1138> So, let's get their source to see what's changed. And then if possible make an official free version. 20:35:14 <peter1138> I dunno about licensing, mind you. 20:39:26 <glx> oh the "disclaimer" on top of the description was not there last time I checked 20:41:50 *** som89_ has quit IRC 20:48:50 <Thedarkb-X40> What's the point of the Windows store? 20:49:12 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:52:59 <nielsm> from a user's point of view, installing things from the windows store should be safer, since everything from there runs sandboxed and (barring bugs in the sandbox) can't affect the OS as a whole 20:53:16 <nielsm> which also means uninstalling an app installed from it really does remove everything 20:54:31 <Lap_op> the point of windows store is to mimic apple store and android store 20:54:52 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 20:55:16 <peter1138> That too 20:55:35 <peter1138> But there are some Windows editions that can only use the store. Some cut down tablet thing? 20:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure lots of "less literate" computer users benefit from a single "store" 20:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yeah, some school version of windows was (meant to be?) store only 20:56:26 <Lap_op> linux works the same way 20:57:40 <Lap_op> linux store = distro repository 20:58:35 <Lap_op> albeit repositories can be mirrored 20:58:52 <Lap_op> buy anyone 20:58:52 <nielsm> not really, no, the way package managers traditionally work on linux distros is closer to MSI (windows installer) in that the package manager has a database of files installed on the system, but files from all packages are installed mixed together in the directory structure 20:59:18 <nielsm> sure there's then some automated downloading and dependency resolution stuff on top of that 20:59:33 <nielsm> but packages are not isolated from each other 21:00:04 <nielsm> however if distros switch over to packaging everything in docker containers/similar things, then you have a comparison 21:01:58 <Lap_op> there is a distro that already installs every program to its own dir 21:02:13 <Lap_op> like windows \programs\ 21:02:28 <Thedarkb-X40> make install 21:02:41 <Thedarkb-X40> is a thing. 21:03:23 <andythenorth> hmm 21:03:35 <andythenorth> specific engines per cargo class would be dumb, right? 21:03:36 <andythenorth> o_O 21:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "separate directory" is something very different from "isolated virtual machine" 21:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes 21:03:49 <andythenorth> ok 21:04:01 <andythenorth> the 'one obvious choice' rule for Iron Horse engines works 21:04:03 <andythenorth> but 21:04:19 <andythenorth> there are a lot of freight cargos, and it gets monotonous choosing the same engine over and again 21:04:37 <Lap_op> i dont think android apps run in isolated virtual machines 21:04:37 <andythenorth> pax has more variety, depending on the route 21:04:46 <Lap_op> do they? 21:05:08 <Lap_op> javaVM? 21:05:25 <nielsm> they do have some level of sandboxing 21:05:42 <nielsm> seLinux based I think? 21:08:36 <nielsm> (if you have bugs in a sandbox, allowing apps to leak out/data to leak in, are they then called termites?) 21:08:47 <Lap_op> google took linux and turned its free philosophy around 21:09:26 <Lap_op> running rootkits in a VM hmm 21:09:46 <Lap_op> should avoid detection 21:10:48 <Lap_op> arguably even more difficult to remove 21:11:22 <Lap_op> the VM is the horse and trojan is inside it 21:11:57 <Lap_op> makes perfect sense 21:13:29 <Lap_op> and since most if not all of them apps are always going online... 21:26:08 *** Mahjong has quit IRC 21:27:32 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:27:36 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:28:47 *** Mahjong has joined #openttd 21:34:55 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:57:17 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:16:00 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 22:16:00 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 22:17:19 *** Gja has quit IRC 22:20:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 22:31:20 *** Pikka has quit IRC 22:41:05 <LordAro> suddenly 8 PRs 22:55:55 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:38:38 <TrueBrain> ieuw, close them, quick! 23:38:39 <TrueBrain> :D 23:45:39 <TrueBrain> helping people within 32 minutes; now that is a good service-rate :P 23:45:49 <TrueBrain> (ticket #6755) 23:46:33 <LordAro> :) 23:55:13 <Thedarkb-X40> Does the classification hard stuff in ISR actually work? 23:55:16 <Thedarkb-X40> *yard 23:55:23 *** synchris has quit IRC 23:56:52 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 23:57:04 *** Progman has quit IRC