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00:05:34 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 00:08:36 *** nielsm has quit IRC 00:19:25 *** yellyFish has quit IRC 01:49:16 *** glx has quit IRC 01:49:37 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 01:58:26 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 03:08:07 *** triolus has quit IRC 03:11:55 *** triolus has joined #openttd 03:12:48 *** triolus has quit IRC 03:17:48 *** triolus has joined #openttd 03:24:47 *** triolus has quit IRC 03:26:51 *** triolus has joined #openttd 05:16:36 *** triolus has quit IRC 05:23:18 *** triolus has joined #openttd 05:33:50 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 07:31:32 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:42:27 <andythenorth> moin 07:55:23 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 08:11:48 *** Progman has joined #openttd 09:18:04 <TrueBrain> hi andythenorth 09:18:22 <andythenorth> yo TB 09:19:54 <nielsm> woo new speed record on danish railways! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=031oCN-LI6s 09:28:33 <TrueBrain> time to try out Digital Ocean .. see what their services is about :) 09:37:04 <andythenorth> we use them for something 09:37:18 <andythenorth> commodity cloud hosts probly 09:39:14 <TrueBrain> they seem to be not as expensive as other cloud operators; still, these things are expensive (in contrast to a dedicated machine); but I guess that makes sense 09:39:53 <andythenorth> we mostly use Rackspace cloud 09:40:09 <andythenorth> but Rackspace are now so disinterested in commodity cloud, it's a joke 09:40:30 <andythenorth> their support responses are basically "oh the host for your VMs went away? GTFO" 09:40:54 <andythenorth> "Would you like to pay us to talk to you about managed cloud?" 09:41:21 <andythenorth> err no, we already pay 5% of our total turnover just to provide VMs thatnks 09:49:24 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:49:32 <Wolf01> o/ 09:51:59 <andythenorth> yo 10:02:04 <andythenorth> 80% 10:12:39 <nielsm> hm, have anyone made a "tile hacker" debug tool patch before? basically picking any tile and changing the raw map array data for it 10:12:56 <andythenorth> not me :) 10:13:29 <LordAro> peter1138 probably has a patch for it 10:14:30 <TrueBrain> nielsm: I can honestly say I have never seen that request even come by :) 10:14:38 <andythenorth> should I do variable running costs for trains? 10:14:52 <andythenorth> heavier load = more cost 10:15:20 <nielsm> running costs shooting up as the model gets older and finding spare parts becomes harder 10:15:58 <nielsm> as a simulation of fuel/energy costs of pulling a heavier load? as long as it's not excessive sounds good 10:16:12 <andythenorth> I'll probably skip it tbh :) 10:16:26 <andythenorth> Pikka has done it before and I don't know if he is convinced 10:23:23 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd 10:47:40 *** matt21347 has quit IRC 10:48:02 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd 10:48:27 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6676: Helicopters can be stopped while descending https://git.io/fxhJY 11:11:55 *** matt21347 has quit IRC 11:20:12 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #6676: Helicopters can be stopped while descending https://git.io/fxhUJ 11:53:20 <nielsm> I assume any attempt at modifying the airport state machines will produce a massive extra job of writing savegame fixer-uppers 11:59:17 <Wolf01> I still think the running costs should be based on number and colour of pixels 11:59:42 <Wolf01> Even other stats should be based on that 11:59:56 <Wolf01> andythenorth proposed red = more fast 12:01:09 <nielsm> changing company colour scheme should absolutely also cost money then 12:01:16 <nielsm> all the repainting is costly 12:01:20 <Wolf01> Yes 12:08:06 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd 12:25:30 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #6962: Fix #6676: Prevent helicoptors from stopping in midair during landing https://git.io/fxhTo 12:33:32 <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6556 <- I very much want to close this as "not a bug", since the installer is written to only do system-global installations (writes a bunch of things to HKLM regardless of what dir you install to) 12:33:52 <nielsm> any opposition? 12:35:03 <andythenorth> I have no knowledge :P 12:36:16 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6962: Fix #6676: Prevent helicopters from stopping in midair during landing https://git.io/fxhTo 12:36:22 * nielsm fixes typo 13:14:49 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 13:45:38 * andythenorth has running cost headache 14:11:07 *** eirc has quit IRC 14:11:41 *** eirc has joined #openttd 14:54:31 * andythenorth wonders about scaling run cost by power * max speed 14:55:54 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 14:56:31 <nielsm> it might work, but should probably also take technology and era into account 14:57:16 <nielsm> a steam engine from 1890 and a diesel-electric from 1990 with identical stats on paper are probably going to have wildly different running costs 15:00:47 <nielsm> maybe having a curve of "expected standard stats" over time (by engine introduction year) and scale costs by deviation from that 15:02:20 <andythenorth> due to game balance, running costs increase over time 15:02:41 <andythenorth> I suspect I'm rendering all progression irrelevant here 15:02:43 <nielsm> how about purchase costs dropping somewhat from introduction to somewhere one-third the way to obsolesence? 15:02:58 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 requested changes for pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhYI 15:03:05 <andythenorth> ooh 15:03:06 <nielsm> so purchasing the latest and greatest costs more than getting the mass produced model from last year 15:06:51 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhYn 15:12:07 <nielsm> I hope my birds will let me do some coding right now, they occasionally get jealous of the keyboard getting all the scritches 15:14:11 <TrueBrain> nothing a shotgun cannot fix 15:15:41 <andythenorth> hmm 15:15:54 <andythenorth> hp * speed doesn't scale how I want 15:16:02 <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder about just setting run costs manually :P 15:16:24 <andythenorth> instead of trying to devise an algorithm that comes out matching my subjective goals :P 15:17:49 <frosch123> random() :) 15:20:28 <frosch123> ((hp * (eletric ? 0.5 : 1))^2 + speed^2) * (0.75 + 0.5*random) 15:21:54 <nielsm> vector length of (power, speed) 15:23:28 <nielsm> frosch123, DisableGrf() wants a StringID, are there any existing that might be usable? :( 15:24:18 <frosch123> STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_INVALID_ID with a bit stretch :) 15:24:31 <nielsm> also every other similar error condition in newindustries loading uses grfmsg 15:24:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: somewhat :P 15:25:29 <frosch123> nielsm: grfmsg means "ottd dev fault". disablegrf means "grf dev fault" :) 15:26:42 <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/newgrf.cpp#L3493 15:26:47 <nielsm> plenty of pre-existing wrong uses then 15:27:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can use "(intro_year + power*7) % 10" as random 15:28:43 <andythenorth> o_O 15:29:06 <frosch123> nielsm: yes, history. stuff shifted from "grfs are developed for ttdp, and ottd somehow tries to run them" to "grfs are developed for ottd, and ottd has to hell-a-lot catch up on grf error reporting" 15:29:55 <frosch123> there was a time inbetween where a lot of grfs where wrong, and noone noticed since noone used ttdp and ottd just ignored errors 15:31:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: "random" is the same as "too complex to see a pattern" 15:32:12 <frosch123> if you find a pattern, add a more properties with other prime factors to the sum 15:32:42 <nielsm> meh going to add this then 15:32:42 <nielsm> STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_PROPERTY_OUT_OF_RANGE :Property value out of range in sprite {0:HEX}: Property={1:HEX}, value={2:NUM}, minimum={3:NUM}, maximum={4:NUM} 15:32:58 <nielsm> ah sprite number should be decimal 16:09:32 <nielsm> hmm looks slightly wrong: https://0x0.st/sI9b.png 16:14:05 <frosch123> i think you cannot add arbitrary parameters 16:14:10 <frosch123> only what is in GRFError 16:15:40 <frosch123> SetDParam(4 + i, c->error->param_value[i]); 16:15:49 <frosch123> integers are in param 4 and 5 16:16:47 <frosch123> the first one is already the sprite number 16:19:39 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2090 16:19:41 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 16:25:34 *** Guest2090 has quit IRC 16:27:11 <andythenorth> hmmm 16:27:18 <andythenorth> the principal problem with running costs is the scale 16:27:28 <andythenorth> the high end is 10000hp and 200mph 16:27:38 <andythenorth> but most trains are bunched at the low end 16:27:42 <andythenorth> so their costs bunch 16:28:25 <nielsm> that's part of why you probably need to make introduction year part of the calculation in some way 16:28:58 <andythenorth> it already is :) 16:29:18 <andythenorth> the run cost factor is a prop limited to 255 16:29:30 <andythenorth> most of the trains have values at 100 or less :P 16:31:05 <frosch123> add a sqrt() to stretch the bottom and compress the top 16:31:40 <andythenorth> that's an interesting idea 16:32:06 <andythenorth> I am considering resetting the base cost factor 16:32:09 <frosch123> or ln() if sqrt() is not enough 16:32:11 <andythenorth> it's default at the moment 16:32:25 <nielsm> I tried making a costs rebalance mod for transport fever at a point, but never managed to make purchase and running cost formulas I was satisfied with 16:33:16 <frosch123> is transport fever like ottd? as in: there is only one metric (money) and it behaves exponentially 16:34:15 <nielsm> very much like 16:35:53 <nielsm> (what keeps me from playing it is that the industry chains feel lifeless, everything is predictable and scale in boring ways, and then there's the poor performance of the game engine) 16:36:16 <nielsm> (also the moddability is too static to allow for truly interesting things) 16:36:56 <andythenorth> hmm 10000hp is a lot :P 16:36:58 <Wolf01> The problem with TF is that it seem you only can multiply the base values, but it has a working daylenght mod :P 16:39:00 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2092 16:39:02 <nielsm> TF also has no real running infrastructure costs at all 16:39:16 <nielsm> which means electrified rail is a total no-brainer 16:41:11 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 16:43:08 <Wolf01> <nielsm> TF also has no real running infrastructure costs at all <- but all the construction costs are completely fucked up 16:43:08 <Wolf01> Even a passenger coach costs 10 times the engine 16:43:45 <nielsm> yeah that's one of the isses I had and why I tried making that rebalance mod 16:44:09 <Wolf01> I don't know if that was the way they wanted to balance the economy 16:44:59 *** Guest2092 has quit IRC 16:45:27 <Wolf01> Also vehicles scale up with capacity and speed but clearly it's not the right way, the specs are completely wrong, like a 4 passengers car which can carry 12 passengers 16:46:26 <nielsm> all the capacities specified in their definitions are 4x the in-game value 16:46:31 <nielsm> for some reason 16:47:14 <nielsm> perhaps that their simulation would bog down too early if there were 4x the number of agents in play 16:47:41 <nielsm> so they divide the capacities by 4 on loading the game data 16:49:03 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2093 16:49:04 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 16:49:20 <Wolf01> Meh, ISP is breaking balls... 16:49:52 <Wolf01> BTW, that's why I would like to play it only to build things and decorate instead of caring about making profitable routes 16:51:03 <nielsm> I quite like their track building tools and options yes 16:51:47 <nielsm> could use some better tools to control height/depth and grades, but overall they're doing that part right 16:53:14 <nielsm> (compared, cities:skylines is doing it wrong by using splines rather than circle arcs for curved roads/tracks) 16:53:29 *** Guest2093 has quit IRC 16:59:02 *** triolus has quit IRC 17:25:27 <andythenorth> hmmm 17:25:27 <andythenorth> maybe I should try and repro the road vehicle depot-finding bug 17:25:39 <andythenorth> then I could maybe play with breakdowns on 17:26:28 <andythenorth> probably I'm the only player using RVs? 17:26:54 *** triolus has joined #openttd 17:29:33 <frosch123> or the only player using automatic servicing 17:30:56 <andythenorth> I switched to service-by-order, then I turned breakdowns off 17:31:08 <andythenorth> endless "vehicle can't find route to depot" stuff 17:31:13 <andythenorth> but I never repro-ed it reliably 17:31:22 <andythenorth> that was probly 10 years ago :P 17:31:32 <Wolf01> Wtf, learn to build roads properly :P 17:31:49 <andythenorth> vehicle drives past depot 17:32:15 <andythenorth> if I turn breakdowns on, I could actually care about reliability in Horse 17:32:31 <nielsm> frosch123 has there ever been a suggestion to print (selected categories of) debug messages to the in-game console? 17:32:51 <nielsm> so e.g. grf debug messages could be visible to more people 17:33:14 <nielsm> it should probably be a command to enable it or such 17:33:30 <frosch123> yes, someone suggested to redirect DEBUG to the console 17:33:48 <frosch123> but DEBUG can be quite a lot 17:33:56 <andythenorth> it's remarkable the places we build stuff http://railpictures.net/photo/676149/ 17:35:26 <nielsm> dwarf fortress style "we just chiseled tracks into the ground rock" 17:38:01 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fN03K 17:38:14 <Wolf01> Bye 17:38:17 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 17:41:07 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 17:45:37 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 17:55:33 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fN03K 17:58:02 <nielsm> frosch123: that should be everything :) 18:05:10 *** yellyFish has joined #openttd 18:09:48 <frosch123> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6867/commits/45a544553b0676fc7299f3ce9443b848cdb26d9e <- you aligned all but one :p 18:10:04 <nielsm> gah 18:12:23 <nielsm> I'll squash all the changes to the pretty commits a bit later 18:13:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhCW 18:13:51 <frosch123> found some obiwans 18:17:32 <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/6867/commits/aa0d78bee38f80800d59d11e61d06907bace6218#diff-8748450ed7120fadfb89a1afe287470fL275 <--- should move this to the newgrf additions commit for the cleanup too 18:19:36 <nielsm> but moving a change from one commit to another is annoying :( 18:32:58 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 18:37:26 *** matt21347 has quit IRC 18:38:46 <frosch123> nielsm: GRFError does not work with string literals in "data" 18:39:07 <frosch123> it does a free in ~GRFError 18:39:18 <nielsm> ugh 18:39:26 <frosch123> so you need some stredup or so 18:39:26 <nielsm> so strdup it >_> 18:39:41 <frosch123> i think "strdup" is not allowed 18:39:43 <nielsm> may as well format it too in that case, with more info 18:39:45 <nielsm> yes 18:42:46 <nielsm> okay no formatting, then I need to set up buffers and other annoying things 18:49:59 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:49:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:50:30 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fN03K 18:54:07 *** triolus has quit IRC 19:00:13 <frosch123> nielsm: no more comments from me 19:01:30 <nielsm> cool, I'll make a squash later then 19:15:45 <andythenorth> 👍 19:45:12 <nielsm> gah clicked rebuild all instead of normal build 19:45:23 <nielsm> not that it matters much when strings.h has changed :P 19:50:58 *** yellyFish has quit IRC 20:01:54 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fN03K 20:02:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhYI 20:07:27 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX https://git.io/fxQWN 20:08:53 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX https://git.io/fxh4F 20:10:22 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #6949: Eliminate ICU for OSX https://git.io/fxh4j 20:11:28 <michi_cc> LordAro: Better now? ^^ :) 20:24:13 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fxhBz 20:24:23 <nielsm> w00t 20:24:38 <nielsm> andythenorth let's throw a party tomorrow 20:24:58 <frosch123> nml next :) 20:25:02 <nielsm> :P 20:25:26 <nielsm> there's also the houses accepts patch 20:25:43 <nielsm> but it should probably have a bit more error handling 20:31:01 <andythenorth> wow 20:31:08 *** yellyFish has joined #openttd 20:31:55 <andythenorth> now I just need a reliable build :D 20:32:29 <andythenorth> this stack of patches is a bit ugly :P 20:42:54 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest2103 20:42:54 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 20:43:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #6867: 16 cargo types in and out for industries https://git.io/fN03K 20:44:47 <glx> maybe I could force merge #6960 20:48:07 *** Guest2103 has quit IRC 20:54:07 <andythenorth> not many left https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pulls?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+-label%3A%22waiting-on-author%22++-author%3ASamuXarick 20:59:01 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 21:14:32 <andythenorth> hmm 21:14:43 <andythenorth> I could do with wagon running costs in different range to engines :P 21:16:42 <andythenorth> I jacked up running cost base to get a good range for engines 21:16:55 *** yellyFish has quit IRC 21:17:00 <andythenorth> now I don't have enough fine grain control over wagons :P 21:18:35 <andythenorth> hmm maybe I can cheart 21:19:31 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 21:48:16 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #6872: Add: Houses can accept up to 16 different cargo types via NewGRF https://git.io/fNanB 22:06:13 <andythenorth> oof 22:06:28 <andythenorth> this running cost thing so nearly works :( 22:06:32 <andythenorth> but the top end is now too low :( 22:13:47 *** triolus has joined #openttd 22:34:18 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 22:46:59 <andythenorth> I can't define arbitrary running cost bases? 22:47:01 <andythenorth> o_O 22:47:11 <andythenorth> so that I can scale them differently? 22:51:30 <frosch123> runninc cost bases are for basecost-mods 22:51:47 <frosch123> you have 15bit price multiplier range, should be enough 22:52:07 <frosch123> which engine cost 32768 times more than a wagon? 22:53:11 <frosch123> wait, running cost? why do wagons have running costs? 22:53:36 <frosch123> but still, 32k is enough even for running cost 22:55:01 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest2108 22:55:01 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 22:55:14 *** Guest2108 has quit IRC 22:59:28 <frosch123> you are lucky, you missed my answer :) 23:03:19 <andythenorth> oof 23:03:28 <andythenorth> I went past the microwave 23:03:38 <andythenorth> which blocks the wifi :P 23:04:08 <frosch123> probably aliens contacting you 23:04:47 <andythenorth> or the faraday cage :P 23:05:30 <andythenorth> wait, running cost factor is only 0-255 no? 23:06:39 <frosch123> depends whther you put it into "properties" or "graphics" :p 23:06:48 <frosch123> 8bit property, 15bit callback 23:07:04 <andythenorth> ooh 23:07:10 <andythenorth> that would avoid some evil I'm doing 23:07:27 <andythenorth> currently I'm abusing electric base cost 23:07:29 <andythenorth> which is a bad idea 23:11:58 <andythenorth> let's see 23:17:18 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:21:56 <nielsm> I tried making a new title screen game: https://0x0.st/sIOv.jpg 23:22:27 <nielsm> well, it's missing ships 23:25:53 <frosch123> at least there is a toy factory 23:26:19 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/sIO6.sav 23:26:21 <nielsm> enjoy 23:38:06 * LordAro has a soft spot for toyland 23:38:30 <LordAro> i used to play mad dog's toyshop(?) in ttd a lot when i was much younger 23:39:07 <nielsm> toyland is really hard mode, just because there's so few vehicle models and they're all worse than those in the normal climates 23:39:32 <LordAro> yeah, i don't think i ever got further than the 4th train? 23:39:44 <LordAro> (lost interest or otherwise)