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00:13:48 *** triolus has joined #openttd 00:45:11 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 04:11:47 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 04:18:38 *** triolus has quit IRC 05:55:55 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #6966: GSTown.PerformTownAction crashes OpenTTD if called during world generation https://git.io/fpIIo 06:46:32 *** Maarten has quit IRC 06:51:59 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 07:03:02 *** Maarten has quit IRC 07:03:30 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 08:16:39 *** Maarten has quit IRC 08:17:09 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 10:01:27 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 10:01:29 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 10:19:49 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd 11:12:45 *** Progman has joined #openttd 12:59:40 *** kragniz has joined #openttd 13:33:33 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:48:55 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 14:14:56 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 15:27:57 *** lugo has joined #openttd 15:54:40 <nielsm> still playing arouind with this... https://0x0.st/slbV.png 16:10:44 *** lugo has quit IRC 17:11:23 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:45:31 *** lugo has joined #openttd 18:09:50 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 18:09:56 <Wolf01> o/ 18:14:34 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:23:42 <Wolf01> o/ 18:24:02 <nielsm> evening 18:30:33 <nielsm> I guess I should try playing a real game with that house cargo patch 18:51:54 <LordAro> pfft 18:52:34 *** lugo has quit IRC 18:53:42 <andythenorth> I played a game once 18:53:44 <andythenorth> it was greaat 18:53:57 <LordAro> tanks? 18:54:00 <andythenorth> nielsm: you should play test my newgrfs :P 18:54:04 <andythenorth> LordAro: funny you should mention that 18:54:12 * andythenorth tanking now 18:56:22 <nielsm> I hope if the patch goes in, the default is changed away from original btw ;) 18:56:36 <Wolf01> I'm playing for real with my new lego microbots 18:57:23 <andythenorth> nielsm: Horse 2, not even a beta yet, but eh :P http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/ 18:57:45 <andythenorth> you should probably play with default vehicles though 18:57:49 <andythenorth> for balance reasons 18:58:00 <andythenorth> I would test these patches too 18:58:05 <andythenorth> if I had a clean compile :P 19:03:31 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a6OLzLN_700b.jpg andythenorth 19:06:25 <andythenorth> Wolf01: FIRS in lego? 19:06:34 <Wolf01> Yeah, why not? 19:07:02 <andythenorth> it's a series, looks like a coal mine too? 19:07:07 <andythenorth> looks like Faller HO buildings 19:07:41 <andythenorth> https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-25a06/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/2769/4451/130945_fg_02__98342.1383259625.jpg?c=2?imbypass=on 19:11:52 <Wolf01> https://www.reddit.com/r/lego/comments/8pa8dt/latest_version_of_the_industrial_zone_i_am/ 19:12:46 <Wolf01> https://www.flickr.com/photos/144703642@N05/sets/72157694422497125 seem really good 19:14:43 <Wolf01> https://www.flickr.com/photos/144703642@N05/albums/72157673251490637 the blast furnace is gorgeous 19:14:56 <frosch123> hmm.. dwarf factorio 19:17:31 <andythenorth> yeah he's doing Faller kits 19:17:32 <andythenorth> and FIRS :P 19:18:29 <andythenorth> https://flic.kr/p/GHQwVU 19:19:13 <andythenorth> ]https://www.osbornsmodels.com/ekmps/shops/osbornsmodels/images/faller-130474-ho-scale-cement-works-[3]-15842-p.jpg 19:19:21 <andythenorth> I considered same for game sprites 19:19:28 <andythenorth> did I do a concrete works? 19:19:29 <andythenorth> hmm no 19:22:42 <frosch123> does hog have a conrete mixing truck? 19:24:05 <andythenorth> nope 19:24:07 <andythenorth> considered it 19:24:16 <andythenorth> what does it deliver though? o_O 19:24:35 <andythenorth> I considered some kind of building site industry, but it's weird 19:24:45 <andythenorth> houses accept concrete? o_O 19:25:48 <nielsm> hmm :s https://0x0.st/slT8.png 19:25:52 <nielsm> it didn't do that before 19:26:06 <nielsm> I've also seen helipad sprites overlap the helipad recently 19:26:14 <nielsm> helipad overlapping helicopter * 19:26:43 <frosch123> ctrl+B 19:27:00 <frosch123> (does it need dev tools active?) 19:27:21 <nielsm> I do have the dev tools enabled 19:28:21 <nielsm> doesn't reproduce reliably, seems to also depend on position of vehicles on screen 19:28:23 <frosch123> hmm, you mean "recently"? try without 25ab9c19? 19:28:59 <nielsm> the sprite sorting performance patch, I presume? 19:29:12 <frosch123> yes 19:29:30 <frosch123> i did not check the last version, so no idea what it actually did 19:30:01 <frosch123> but spritesorting is not well-defined, so always magical :) 19:30:13 <nielsm> recompiling 19:31:47 <nielsm> yeah not immediately seeing anything with that reverted 19:37:27 <nielsm> this is pretty good, if I am to say myself: https://0x0.st/slTZ.jpg 19:37:41 <nielsm> (cargo amounts, profits) 19:42:42 <andythenorth> so this rescales pax generation per house? 19:42:52 * andythenorth didn't read all the memos 19:43:04 <nielsm> yes 19:43:33 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/slTN.png if you want some numbers 19:43:47 <nielsm> I'm playing with the bitcount2 algorithm here 19:44:08 <nielsm> the numbers are pax generated across 5000 tile ticks 19:45:00 <andythenorth> I'm not going to ask how you raised the floor while compressing the ceiling :) 19:45:11 <andythenorth> but it might make a big worthwhile difference to the game 19:45:18 <andythenorth> as long as it doesn't get too compressed 19:45:20 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/slTc.png 19:45:40 <nielsm> it's actually that the original is scaled by roughly n^2 19:46:38 <andythenorth> very silly :) 19:47:13 <andythenorth> explains a lot 19:48:39 <nielsm> those 5000 tile ticks is a little more than 47 years 19:50:23 <nielsm> which means a size 5 house might generate 2 passengers in a good year with the original algorithm 19:51:35 *** glx has joined #openttd 19:51:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 19:52:18 <nielsm> while a size 200 house would spew 1000 passengers out every year 19:58:14 <andythenorth> oof 20:05:18 <Wolf01> Mmmh, my city is completely locked up on a huge traffic jam... I need to put more roads and fewer houses 20:13:31 <nielsm> well even with this it can still be difficult to control: https://0x0.st/slTp.jpg 20:15:18 <andythenorth> well 20:15:20 <nielsm> (cargodist probably makes the numbers bigger than they strictly need to be) 20:15:26 <andythenorth> it's still a transport game :) 20:15:38 <nielsm> true, it needs stuff to transport :P 20:15:56 <nielsm> though the abundancy of cargo might make the game part too easy 20:16:04 <andythenorth> you need metro trains :P 20:19:48 <nielsm> I'd really like to lower the chance of generation just a bit, but making a 1:3 chance with bits is annoying (I don't want to work it out atm) 20:21:44 <frosch123> scale the population? fake_population = setting * real_population / 16 with setting 8..23 or something 20:22:48 <frosch123> somewhen i wondered whether there is too little mail to transport 20:26:32 <nielsm> I think the best way to adjust generation of the bitcount alg is to adjust this probability: https://github.com/nielsmh/OpenTTD/blob/4534256e273c7d70bfdb1aca2d1d0302a1b1f99e/src/town_cmd.cpp#L536 20:27:53 <nielsm> a 1:3 chance could maybe be counting bits set of two chosen equals to bits set in six chosen 20:28:13 <frosch123> 5/16 is pretty much 1:3 20:30:04 <nielsm> I'll try switching to the flat distribution low range alg instead 20:30:15 <nielsm> see if the amounts feel better here 20:30:48 <frosch123> how much is the flat/gaussian distribution noticeable? 20:31:24 <frosch123> the more houses there are the more both are averaged 20:31:45 <frosch123> i think making them very variadic for low house amounts makes the game more interesting 20:32:45 <nielsm> I don't really notice it, I guess 20:34:14 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/slTx.png <- changed alg in jan 1960 20:35:10 <nielsm> the bus in the small town makes significantly less profit now 20:41:25 <nielsm> the low-range flat distribution is probably better from a difficulty perspective, although my perception might be skewed by experience ;) 20:42:47 <nielsm> the medium and high levels would seem to make passengers too easy to profit on but are probably interesting for optimization challenge games 20:43:06 <frosch123> well, the total amount of passengers is one thing. but i wonder whether it is possible to actually make the amounts vary, or how many houses does to take to average out any deviations 20:43:19 <nielsm> binomial might be interesting for realism nerds (since it kind-of simulates individual coin flips per potential pax) 20:43:40 <nielsm> but should probably also be tuneable in how much it generates 20:43:46 <frosch123> i think "realism" is a big trap here 20:44:24 <frosch123> if your algorithm has many small random elements, they average out, and in the end there is no randomness 20:44:36 <frosch123> that's kind of what happens with "smooth economy" 20:45:04 <frosch123> if has many small adjustmnets whcih cancel each other out, so there is rarely a big change like with "non-smooth economy" 20:45:11 <nielsm> right, "nothing big ever really happens"? 20:45:26 <frosch123> same applies to ecs. it models so many small details which cancel/average each other, that in the end it does not have any effect 20:46:32 <frosch123> so, i would always go for something that makes the game more diverse than realistic :) 20:46:49 <nielsm> I'm too tired to set anything up now, but my sim could probably be used to build a "full town sim" kind of thing 20:46:59 <nielsm> https://gist.github.com/nielsmh/406dfdcb0f2232b4a4bb507096cea725 20:47:00 <frosch123> diverse can make the game interesting, realism can be quite boring 20:47:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: there is too little mail to transport 20:47:49 <andythenorth> or it needs adjusted in newgrf, by increasing value 20:47:52 <frosch123> nielsm: you computed average amounts, can you also compute a standard deviation? 20:49:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: currently nielsm's patch had one setting to adjust 3/4 things: 1. amounts of pax, 2. amount of mail, 3./4. variation fo pax/mail amounts 20:49:20 <frosch123> i try to figure out whether 1. and 2. should be different settings, and whether 3./4. is noticeable at all :) 20:50:03 <nielsm> stddev is probably most interesting if you look at a "whole town" sim, i.e. generation for a cluster of buildings in catchment area of a station 20:50:46 <frosch123> huh? for whole town sim the distribution per house does not matter. it all averages out to the "expected value" 20:50:53 <nielsm> and then sum up a month of values at a time 20:51:22 <frosch123> with gaussian distribution 20:51:50 <frosch123> you can only make small towns interesting, big towns will always be boring :p 20:52:24 <frosch123> (wrt. continuous cargo generation) 20:57:55 <andythenorth> I suspect variation is rarely useful 21:08:39 <andythenorth> I am curious about variation between towns 21:08:53 <andythenorth> and whether there's a single factor that could be exposed to GS or something 21:10:58 <nielsm> something like residents in one town being more likely to take transit than in another town? 21:11:22 <nielsm> I think station rating already covers that plenty 21:11:38 <andythenorth> I was thinking of total generation 21:11:46 <andythenorth> e.g. some towns might like to travel more than others :P 21:11:54 <nielsm> unless you want towns with super angry mayors running smear campaigns against you :P 21:12:10 <andythenorth> tie it to advertising campaign :P 21:12:28 <andythenorth> I only ever use 'bribe' though, dunno what those others do 21:12:43 <nielsm> ad campaign literally raises station ratings 21:12:57 <nielsm> temporarily 21:13:42 <nielsm> building status gives a permanent station rating boost to stations near the town center 21:14:09 <nielsm> (I don't know if it ties to the town zones, population, or just a fixed range) 21:14:22 <nielsm> statue* 21:15:08 <nielsm> funding new buildings is almost always a waste 21:16:22 <frosch123> "commuter towns" vs "tourism towns" 21:16:49 <nielsm> now you're getting into simutrans turf aren't you :P 21:17:11 <andythenorth> one day there'll be a reason to deliver goods 21:17:19 <frosch123> no idea, haven't looked at it in 12 years 21:17:44 <nielsm> play tropical climate and deliver both food and water 21:20:14 <andythenorth> meh :) 21:20:24 <andythenorth> I liked arctic for food above snowline 21:20:36 <andythenorth> everything I want is in GS already 21:20:40 <andythenorth> but GS are single-purpose 21:20:43 <frosch123> toyland is evil 21:20:53 <frosch123> when towns grow they switch from accepting sweets to fizzy drinks 21:20:56 <andythenorth> oof 21:21:02 <andythenorth> that is evil 21:21:30 <frosch123> if you want a constant acceptance for sweets you either have to move the station or prevent the town from growing 21:22:00 <andythenorth> ha ha 21:46:17 *** lugo has joined #openttd 21:54:19 *** lugo has quit IRC 22:02:34 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:33:34 *** tokai has joined #openttd 22:33:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 22:58:38 *** matt21347 has quit IRC 23:18:37 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 23:30:39 *** nielsm has quit IRC