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12:10:47 <andythenorth> I know rubidium isn't, and I thought truebrain might be, for a bit 12:10:55 <andythenorth> but now I'm not sure :) 12:11:05 <andythenorth> rotating presidency, like the EU? o_O 12:11:10 <Eddi|zuHause> putting TrueBrain in charge of anything sounds like a bad idea :p 12:11:44 * andythenorth back to PECR, GDPR and ISO 27001 12:11:47 <andythenorth> policy max 12:11:55 <andythenorth> also lunch 12:27:44 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 12:29:10 <peter1139> It was. 12:46:54 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 13:10:01 *** raizumaraiz has joined #openttd 13:22:17 *** Etua has joined #openttd 13:25:09 *** Etua has quit IRC 13:51:52 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:57:07 <andythenorth> it was 13:57:22 <nielsm> was it? 14:10:01 <milek7> for the record, i checked 1.9.2 on winxp and sorting works fine 14:13:16 <andythenorth> allegedly not ? 14:14:59 <nielsm> it probably depends on the compiler/stdlib used 14:15:31 <milek7> tested 32bit installer from openttd.org 14:16:17 <nielsm> okay so it actually works... impressive 14:16:40 <andythenorth> I dis-enjoyed the tone of the comment so I closed it 14:16:56 <andythenorth> I don't think it's lost in translation, I think it's just tedious angry entitlement 14:17:07 <andythenorth> if it was supposed to be lolz, the emoji was missing 14:17:08 <nielsm> the reporter probably read some smartypants guide about how to improve file system performance by disabling modification times recording 14:17:21 <nielsm> and is then surprised when applications that request the mtime of files gets nothing 14:17:24 <andythenorth> it's a waste of our time IMHO and no fun 14:17:31 <andythenorth> OpenTTD should be fun 14:17:38 <andythenorth> main criteria :P 14:20:59 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 14:21:02 <andythenorth> milek7: thanks for checking though :) 14:22:30 <milek7> oh 14:22:34 <milek7> i'm dumb 14:23:13 <milek7> give me few minutes, i need to check that again ;P 14:24:28 * andythenorth has to go 14:24:41 <andythenorth> new modest proposal: support OS on the same basis as the OS vendor 14:24:49 <andythenorth> I think that's what we're doing for Apple already 14:24:59 <andythenorth> last 2 major revs 14:26:05 <andythenorth> BIAB 14:26:06 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 14:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a difference between "actively supported" and "if it happens to work, great" 14:47:32 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 14:48:01 <nielsm> our readme file says windows is supported, but not which versions, it's reasonable to interpret that as just the versions supported by the vendor 14:48:19 *** raizumaraiz has quit IRC 14:48:30 <planetmaker> Then we should update the web page(s) :) 14:50:48 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 14:54:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking about this 14:54:51 <andythenorth> we don't do 'supported' like a paid product, because all the reasons 14:55:18 <andythenorth> 'supported' AFAICT relates to the binaries we'll produce on the compile farm 14:55:30 <andythenorth> and then what compilers etc we'll work with 14:56:05 <andythenorth> which affects what we might take as a master PR (support / maintain for minority platforms) 14:56:25 <andythenorth> that's my impression from last 18 months anyway 14:57:02 <andythenorth> we seem to be naturally open to support, unless it affects (for example) C++ versions and standards, cmake, etc 14:57:14 <planetmaker> there's basically two levels of "supported": "provide binary" and "support with code, but don't provide binary" 14:57:40 <planetmaker> like "solaris" was never supported in binary - but there supposedly is all the code to make it work there w/o errors 14:57:42 <andythenorth> there's one level that's really important IMHO 14:58:21 <andythenorth> -> if a maintainer goes to effort for a minority platform on the understanding that we support it, then we need to drop it because of upstream reasons -> not going to go well 14:58:53 <andythenorth> I think we can be upfront about that, without in any way committing to fix all bugs for supported platform x, which is a different issue 14:59:16 <planetmaker> "active support" vs. "passive support"? 14:59:23 <andythenorth> something like that 14:59:43 <planetmaker> And yes, making that distinction might be good. 14:59:47 <andythenorth> 'our choices of coding standards, supported compilers etc is determined by support policy x' 15:00:04 <planetmaker> sounds already burocratic ;) 15:00:08 <andythenorth> 'we may accept PRs for other OSes, but with no guarantee of forwards compatibility' 15:00:14 <andythenorth> I know, it's bureacracy :( 15:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> bürokröte? 15:01:16 <nielsm> nobody on the dev team cares about making sure everything is flawless on XP, therefore nothing is tested there and nothing is done about bug reports about it 15:01:27 <planetmaker> Just simple: "We actively develop for currently supported versions of Windows, Linux and OSX. We accept pull-requests to support other platforms, but cannot assure to maintain them 15:02:07 <planetmaker> ...currently vendor-supported versions of... 15:02:07 <andythenorth> for macOS it's already de-facto "we don't support versions of macOS that are no longer supported by Apple" 15:02:09 <andythenorth> which is last 2 15:02:13 <andythenorth> simple policy 15:02:53 <planetmaker> for windows it's also the de-facto standard 15:03:01 <planetmaker> after all: no-one sane uses unsupported windoze 15:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's different for mac, because it's difficult to compile. but on windows, once it works, it probably keeps working. 15:03:11 <andythenorth> I love a microsoft document :P https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet 15:03:22 <nielsm> FACT SHEET! 15:03:22 <planetmaker> but "keeps working" is different from "we actively check that it works" 15:03:44 <andythenorth> yes 15:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i meant with my opening statement. 15:03:52 <andythenorth> we actively check nothing 15:03:54 <andythenorth> it's GPL 15:03:57 <andythenorth> no guarantees etc 15:04:53 <andythenorth> Apple is simple 15:05:04 <andythenorth> MS is maybe simple, if anyone can make sense of the fact sheet 15:05:09 <andythenorth> Linux I have NFI :) 15:05:23 <andythenorth> Solaris NFI 15:05:29 <andythenorth> *BSD, especially FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD NFI :) 15:05:41 <andythenorth> I used solaris once 22 years ago maybe 15:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> linux is too fractured, and we mostly rely on the downstream maintainers 15:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause> we only provide binaries for the most popular platforms, debian and ubuntu, but you can compile it on most other modern distros, and many distros include it 15:07:24 <andythenorth> if we can put a policy in a paste or gist, I will format it and put it in the website 15:07:39 <andythenorth> or even we could just have one support policy, in github, 15:07:41 <andythenorth> and not 3 15:20:10 <peter1139> "Assigned #7733 to @PeterN." < lol 15:20:59 <andythenorth> sounds like my day job 15:21:32 <andythenorth> 7733 is an outage report :P 15:28:07 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 15:40:17 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 15:58:58 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:32:54 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:52:13 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:04:09 <milek7> nielsm: 17:04:14 <milek7> about that sorting: 17:04:14 <milek7> it indeed doesn't work 17:04:14 <milek7> i got confused because it still sorts by name, and missed that it didn't sort correctly.. ;P 17:04:14 <milek7> trying to debug this i got completely sidetracked by FiosIsValidFile, which reads modification time from WIN32_FIND_DATA, and it is correct 17:04:14 <milek7> but FiosFileScanner doesn't use that data and reads once more, from _tstat, which as implemented in CRT uses kernel32.dll:GetFileInformationByHandleEx 17:04:16 <milek7> ..and as docs specify, "Minimum supported client: Windows Vista" 17:04:18 <milek7> and it doesn't crash outright because it uses GetProcAddress to resolve that symbol 17:04:30 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:04:42 <milek7> i guess switching to *_xp toolchain would be more compatible 17:08:14 <frosch123> someone wants to do an interview with some american/romanian pupils? 17:10:26 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> what would that accomplish? 17:19:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: do they have a question? :) 17:19:55 <frosch123> no, they ask whether they may send question 17:20:13 <frosch123> but they want to write an article in their highscool magazine 17:21:05 <frosch123> though considering it's a highschool, they probably want to write about playing the game, not about deving it 17:21:34 <frosch123> so, maybe some goal server dude wants to advertise their community? :p 17:22:22 <frosch123> https://thebite.aisb.ro/index.php/about 17:22:43 <frosch123> that's their "reference" 17:23:03 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 17:27:57 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:28:11 <Wolf01> o/ 17:32:18 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 17:33:24 <andythenorth> did anyone figure out the MS roadmap? o_O 17:33:33 <andythenorth> and is my suggested approach valid? 17:35:44 <andythenorth> hmm, do we trust wiki-sometimes-not-very-accurate? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_Windows_versions 17:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause> no. 17:40:48 <andythenorth> to all 3? :) 17:45:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JemI3 17:45:47 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 17:47:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA 18:15:12 *** Thedarkb-X40 has quit IRC 18:16:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] j-pet commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JemI7 18:25:02 *** Samu has joined #openttd 18:43:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation https://git.io/JemLR 18:47:40 <andythenorth> hmm 18:47:45 * andythenorth tanks or horse? 18:48:23 <andythenorth> FWIW ratings always trip me up 18:48:40 <andythenorth> I always allocate a train with about 1 month's capacity relative to industry production 18:48:41 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 18:48:52 <andythenorth> forgetting that I'll get at best about 0.69 of that 18:49:03 <andythenorth> doesn't really affect gameplay though 18:49:27 <andythenorth> I did play FIRS with 100% station rating for about a year, but it's potato / potato 18:50:34 <Samu> listening to "a forest" 18:50:55 <Samu> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHmg2iXARbg 18:54:40 <Samu> the last mail truck is only available from 2018 or 19, right? 18:55:24 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:55:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:55:50 <Samu> current results disappoint me 18:56:00 <Samu> PASS > MAIL > PASS&MAIL 18:58:49 <Samu> on the bright side, it's actually interesting that MAIL is performing so well 18:59:31 <Samu> but I was expecting PASS&MAIL to be the better 18:59:35 <supermop_work> andythenorth: i usually build 1 mo capacity 18:59:56 <supermop_work> and accept that it will run slightly under utilized 19:00:15 <glx> PASS&MAIL should be better I think, maybe your code is wrong :) 19:01:07 <supermop_work> i think i messed up with bus introduction generations 19:01:43 <Samu> it's because engine models are better for PASS 19:02:03 <Samu> faster, more capacity 19:02:25 <Samu> but still... PASS&MAIL should be at least 2nd place, it's 3rd 19:02:35 <supermop_work> huh? 19:03:21 <Samu> it's the year 2009, superbus is coming, maybe now it'll get 2nd place 19:03:46 <Samu> and PASS will be even further ahead 19:08:47 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 19:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> to all 3? :) <-- yes 19:10:07 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 19:34:39 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 19:40:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7731: Under WinXP OpenTTD fails to sort savegames by date https://git.io/JevsA 19:44:20 <nielsm> andythenorth: the MS lifecycle page tells nothing about XP because it's completely out of support :) it does tell that win7 will leave extended support january next year, so probably visual studio 2020 or 2021 will default to a runtime that targets win8.1 minimum 19:44:50 <andythenorth> can we use this information? 19:45:20 <andythenorth> :) 19:45:29 <andythenorth> does it help our cause? 19:45:44 <glx> windows 10 1803 will be phased out soon 19:45:46 <nielsm> it's difficult to beat people over the head with a rolled up paper that no longer exists :D 19:46:11 <nielsm> someone argued that MS released a patch for XP recently 19:46:29 <andythenorth> lolz and so on 19:46:36 <nielsm> that was for an extremely wormable exploit and was done to protect the internet at large from the idiots still running xp 19:46:38 <andythenorth> I have to deal with this crap sometimes for things like IE, and SSL 19:46:46 <andythenorth> and who supports what 19:47:00 <andythenorth> and historically my customer base are amongst the last to upgrade :P 19:48:13 <glx> I remember the time even 9x was present in msdn, but they removed all old versions from the docs 19:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "the idiots still running xp" <-- and the companies that have machines built 20 years ago that they can neither update nor replace 19:49:03 <glx> there are still NT4 systems IIRC 19:50:03 <nielsm> majority of my users are in healthcare, and I can't remember when I last saw an XP machine in regular use 19:50:29 <nielsm> (only one I know of it an isolated VM used to access historical data from an ancient system, used a few times a year) 19:51:00 <glx> yeah I have an XP VM just for using my scanner 19:51:12 <glx> because the driver is 32bit only 19:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> a few years ago there was an airport in paris that had to shut down because they didn't find someone to maintain their win 3.1 system 19:52:27 <glx> not surprising 19:52:53 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently the 3 people authorised/trained to handle it all were busy/on vacation 19:52:53 <glx> why renew something if it still works 19:53:22 <glx> new software is often broken 19:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, like win 10 updates that delete all your files :p 19:54:14 <glx> that's why COBOL is still in use in some places 19:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> they had an old XP-era server at my last company, that they were trying to phase out 19:55:44 <nielsm> well COBOL has two things going for it, it's common and it's business-oriented 19:57:55 <nielsm> end of discussion. 20:05:11 <nielsm> :P 20:07:23 <Samu> COmmon and Business-Oriented L 20:07:44 <nielsm> congratulations you win a peanut 20:09:54 <Samu> COBOL (/ˈkoʊbɒl, -bɔːl/; an acronym for "common business-oriented language") 20:09:54 *** Samu has quit IRC 20:10:33 <nielsm> lol 20:10:45 <glx> nice one 20:14:58 *** gelignite has quit IRC 20:17:28 <andythenorth> oh dear :) 20:17:30 <andythenorth> come back samu 20:17:32 <andythenorth> all is forgiven 20:49:34 <LordAro> "autokilled" 20:49:38 <LordAro> amazing 20:49:49 *** Etua has joined #openttd 20:59:21 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 21:06:07 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:06:17 *** Etua has quit IRC 21:14:50 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:15:44 *** Thedarkb has joined #openttd 21:18:22 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i always knew Samu was a spambot 22:01:52 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:06:29 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:07:53 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:25:46 *** tokai has joined #openttd 22:25:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 22:30:23 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 22:30:29 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 22:32:42 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 22:38:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:03:17 *** thexa4 has quit IRC 23:18:43 *** Thedarkb-X40 has joined #openttd 23:25:22 *** Thedarkb has quit IRC 23:35:49 *** thexa4 has joined #openttd