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has joined #openttd 07:47:16 *** dag[m] has joined #openttd 07:47:16 *** tops[m] has joined #openttd 07:47:16 *** ist5shreawf[m] has joined #openttd 07:47:16 *** khavik[m] has joined #openttd 07:47:16 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd 07:47:16 *** juzza1 has joined #openttd 07:47:16 *** goodger has joined #openttd 07:53:02 *** fjodor[m] has quit IRC 07:53:13 *** fjodor[m] has joined #openttd 07:54:07 *** ircer[m] has quit IRC 07:54:18 *** ircer[m] has joined #openttd 07:56:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 07:57:52 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd 07:58:08 *** FLHerne is now known as Guest5517 07:59:42 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 08:06:33 *** Wormnest__ has quit IRC 08:17:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0 08:20:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0 08:21:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh commented on pull request #53: Fix #52: time.clock() has been removed in python 3.8 https://git.io/JeBDS 08:24:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite setup.py https://git.io/JeBDH 08:30:41 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:39:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite setup.py https://git.io/JeBDd 08:43:51 <andythenorth> hmm I just do this https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/render_nml.py#L66 08:43:57 <andythenorth> print(format((time() - start), '.2f') + 's') 08:44:19 <andythenorth> nml isn't doing anything clever with the time, I just ran it and checked 08:45:28 <andythenorth> how precise does it need to be? :P 08:46:47 <andythenorth> in fact, time() is more accurate for my purpose, because I want to know how long I'm waiting in total 09:01:21 <nielsm> datetime.time() you mean? problem with that is system clock adjustments 09:01:29 <nielsm> it's not really suitable for stopwatch use 09:01:56 <nielsm> time.monotonic() is a reliable real time stopwatch 09:04:25 <andythenorth> based on principle of not changing behaviour, I'm inclined to improve process_time 09:04:28 <andythenorth> approve * 09:04:57 <andythenorth> approve * 09:05:12 <andythenorth> assuming this was originally used to benchmark process timings 09:05:13 <nielsm> yeah it doesn't really matter for this use 09:05:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth closed issue #52: nmlc doesn't work with python 3.8 https://git.io/JeBiE 09:05:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth merged pull request #53: Fix #52: time.clock() has been removed in python 3.8 https://git.io/JeBii 09:07:27 *** Wormnest__ has joined #openttd 09:13:21 * andythenorth BBL 09:13:23 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 09:21:51 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 09:48:23 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 09:50:06 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 09:50:18 <andythenorth_> “OpenTTD directories” could move from README.md to own file in /docs? 09:58:25 <frosch123> readme section 4.2 is the most referenced part of all 09:58:36 <frosch123> everyone downloading mods manually asks about that 09:59:06 <frosch123> it may even be worth to fake the numbering so that 4.2 remains :p 09:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: very -1 10:02:00 <andythenorth_> Noted frosch123 10:02:21 <andythenorth_> Seems bizarrely upside down to me 10:02:45 <andythenorth_> but I am not the audience 10:05:15 <andythenorth_> Begs the question, why are they manually downloading mods? :D 10:05:51 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:06:27 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:07:46 <Eddi|zuHause> ... because still some people refuse the idea of bananas? 10:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> ... both on the uploader and the downloader side 10:08:35 <andythenorth_> bizarre world 10:09:12 <nielsm> we could add an "install mod" feature in the UI where you can select a file from whereever and have it auto-copied to the appropriate location 10:09:28 <planetmaker> -1 on moving dir info out of readme. That's one of the readme purposes 10:09:31 <nielsm> (that's a lot of work) 10:09:57 <andythenorth_> probably not worth it just to make readme shorter :) 10:09:57 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: would probably also require some sort of unpacker 10:09:58 <nielsm> could even define something like .ottdmod file extension 10:10:02 <planetmaker> what will be gained by putting it in a separate file. "easier to find" is not one of them. 10:10:06 <planetmaker> readme is visible ingame 10:10:14 <planetmaker> and google doesn't care 10:10:29 <planetmaker> anyone who looks at doc dir... can look at any file. Fewer is easier to grep 10:11:54 <andythenorth_> Hmm iOS really doesn’t work for anything other than using the phone 10:12:03 * andythenorth_ digresses 10:12:26 <nielsm> where do you find the readme file in-game? 10:13:58 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:14:26 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:14:40 <andythenorth_> Frigging ios kicked me again 10:14:58 <planetmaker> he, indeed... it is *not*... could have sworn it were, as we show every readme, except our own 10:15:08 <andythenorth_> I only have this crap because all my kids photos are on Apple 10:15:20 * andythenorth_ grumbles 10:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: there should be a readme button on the intro menu 10:15:52 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:16:43 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:16:48 <planetmaker> but there actually is not. But there is a completely bogus highscore table 10:18:12 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7783: SDL2: Not possible to type shift-T into a edit context in multiplayer https://git.io/JeByK 10:18:15 <nielsm> yeah a "help" button might be good 10:18:39 <nielsm> getting a readme viewer, links to the wiki, and stuff 10:18:47 <andythenorth_> That would add an interesting dimension to the docs rewrite 10:19:01 <andythenorth_> One more context to consider :) 10:19:42 <andythenorth_> I keep talking myself out of writing a basic manual for players 10:19:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7784: SDL2: Not possible to use the up/down keys in the console https://git.io/JeBy6 10:20:04 <andythenorth_> Quick start guide :p 10:20:36 <andythenorth_> In .md, rendered to $whatever 10:20:49 <nielsm> also the difference between "settings" and "game options" is still weird 10:20:58 <andythenorth_> Yair 10:21:23 *** Wormnest__ has quit IRC 10:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: but it would also be wrong to mix them 10:21:36 <nielsm> the newgrf and ai/gs configuration windows could maybe have a button to open the appropriate folder in the OS file browser (if the OS supports it) 10:22:38 <andythenorth_> Most of options should be gone 10:22:49 <andythenorth_> Split to settings or newgame 10:23:12 <andythenorth_> Town names, drive side etc are newgame concerns 10:24:04 <nielsm> baseset choices should be labeled "configuration" rather than "options" imo, and should ideally also allow selecting driver via in-game UI 10:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: but things like resolution and language should not be hidden deep in some giant settings tree 10:24:15 <nielsm> (of course changing driver still requires restarting the game) 10:24:24 <frosch123> andythenorth_: there was some german dude who wrote a manual and published it by print-on-demand, he sold 3 books or so 10:24:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #7785: SDL2: Version 2.0.5 is required, but configure script only checks for 2.0 https://git.io/JeBy1 10:24:44 <andythenorth_> Eddi I’m inclined to +1 on those 10:25:26 <frosch123> resolution is such a weird setting. you only need fullscreen/windowed 10:25:34 <frosch123> what is resolution useful for? 10:25:49 <andythenorth_> My OS has a button for fullscreen 10:26:14 <frosch123> well, i also only use maximized, never fullscreen 10:26:22 <andythenorth_> same 10:26:36 <andythenorth_> Fullscreen tends to crash macs 10:27:03 <andythenorth_> $everything tends to crash macs these days 10:27:34 <andythenorth_> Terminal decline of the platform, just awaiting a usable alternative 10:27:45 <andythenorth_> Is beOS finished yet. 10:27:48 <andythenorth_> ? 10:30:47 <andythenorth_> In fact Apple has been dying for the last 20 years, wish it would get it over with :p 10:31:25 *** Arveen has quit IRC 10:31:43 <frosch123> 20 or 35? 10:32:12 <frosch123> i thought beos/haiku was atari stuff? 10:32:15 <andythenorth_> I didn’t own one until 1998 10:32:45 <andythenorth_> At the time the mac magazines were including beOS on cover CDs 10:32:53 <frosch123> i think i decided before 1998 that all mac users are weird, and i do not want to belong into that social group 10:33:00 <andythenorth_> Because Apple was dead 10:35:09 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:35:38 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:36:24 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:37:14 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:37:28 <andythenorth_> Anyway, readme 10:37:36 <andythenorth_> I guess my main observation 10:38:36 <andythenorth_> Looking at other projects, they don’t try and cover everything in README whilst also omitting some fundamentals 10:39:01 <andythenorth_> And also strewing random docs across multiple locations 10:39:44 <andythenorth_> The readme is bad because it attempts to patch over that a docs approach was never figured out happily 10:40:02 <andythenorth_> and because stuff and things 10:40:13 * andythenorth_ biab 10:40:54 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:43:19 <nielsm> can TT-Forums be called "official forums"? 10:43:41 <nielsm> and should it be linked from inside the game? 10:45:07 <frosch123> it is linked from the homepage 10:45:25 <frosch123> how could it be more official? 10:59:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite setup.py https://git.io/JeBSI 11:10:33 <Guest5517> frosch123: Could have a separate file, and change section 4.2 to "read this: <link>"? 11:10:41 *** Guest5517 is now known as FLHerne 11:10:46 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:12:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: proof of 4.2? :D https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=86171 11:15:00 *** Wormnest__ has joined #openttd 11:17:22 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/z3AQ.png 11:17:25 *** Lejving has joined #openttd 11:17:25 <nielsm> something like that maybe? 11:19:25 <andythenorth> nielsm: :D 11:19:38 <planetmaker> <nielsm> also the difference between "settings" and "game options" is still weird <--- I am of the opinion for long that it should be consolidated into one - at least on the surface 11:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm of the very opposite opinion 11:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> internally it could be merged, but on the UI side, separation is better 11:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the settings tree gets borderline unusable 11:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> for a new user it's just massively intimidating 11:21:13 <planetmaker> No. If you want to change stuff, it's good to have one place to go. 11:21:32 <planetmaker> Of course the UI settings have a separate tab or so, so they are prominently visible 11:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that implies you already know it's a setting at all 11:21:44 <nielsm> I agree that the settings tree is bad usability 11:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and you know how to look for it 11:21:52 <andythenorth> FWIW I was of the impression that forums were no longer official 11:22:08 <andythenorth> and I think it's better that way 11:22:34 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you have like 'load game, settings, and help' in the main menu: where do you go and change resolution? Anyone would go the right place 11:22:48 <planetmaker> as opposed to now where you also have options, and newgrfs, and ai, and scripts... 11:23:21 <andythenorth> I wrote this for forums in my draft https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/tree/revise-readme-october-2019#20-contact-and-community 11:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a person who is looking for resolution won't klick on AI settings 11:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a person who doesn't know AI settings are even a thing wouldn't click on settings and scroll through 1000s of unrelated settings to find the ai settings 11:24:23 <planetmaker> but a graphics setting 11:24:40 <planetmaker> you however totally miss the point :) 11:24:58 <planetmaker> of course not ai. But there's at least options, and settings. And what's the other stuff? 11:25:00 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't, i just think your point is the wrong point 11:25:20 <planetmaker> Most games have like settings -> audio, graphics / video, controls 11:25:30 <planetmaker> and maybe then also mods, and other game settings 11:25:49 <planetmaker> none have the detail level we offer usually :P 11:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and someone decided that tabs for the various different setting categories are bad, and introduced the tree 11:26:28 <planetmaker> IMHO this is mixing different discussions: 11:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and i think shoving more and more into that tree is the wrong idea 11:26:39 <planetmaker> * consolidating all settings to one place from which to access them 11:26:46 <planetmaker> * how to present the settings 11:27:10 <Eddi|zuHause> those are not different points 11:27:19 <planetmaker> one place trumps IMHO that a tree is possibly not the best. But having totally different concepts is worse than one concept 11:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> just different viewing directions on the same point 11:27:46 <andythenorth> hmm 11:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> there's settings with a gameplay effect -> settings, there's settings without a gameplay effect -> game options 11:28:04 <andythenorth> by a quick count, there are over 100 settings in settings 11:28:16 <andythenorth> adding 11 more is marginal 11:28:26 <andythenorth> whereas having 2 places is significant 11:28:34 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, not quite. It's not implemented such at all currently. And options and settings... is rather synonymous 11:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg 11:28:49 <planetmaker> in our case options is w/o gameplay effect. Except drive side 11:28:57 <planetmaker> so it's... weired however one puts it 11:29:01 <andythenorth> 'Game options' is broken anyway 11:29:28 <planetmaker> yes. 11:29:50 <andythenorth> load/9521/game_options.png 11:29:54 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9521/game_options.png 11:30:08 <andythenorth> doesn't fit, can't be resized 11:30:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: the *nice* thing about the community sites is that they are so political :) 11:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, let's put it this way (naming aside) game options -> things that are likely locale/os-specific, settings -> things that are platform-independent 11:30:19 <planetmaker> oh, and town names :D 11:30:38 <andythenorth> I would consolidate the options, then work on the tree being more usable 11:30:44 <andythenorth> but I thought we decided that years ago :) 11:30:45 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that *would* be one way one could separate it, yes. But that clearly is not the case 11:30:48 <planetmaker> and never was 11:31:06 <frosch123> about settings: imho the tree should contain *all* settings, and then there should be a second gui "basic settings" duplicating stuff like "language" 11:31:07 <planetmaker> and the distinction is not self-explanatory either 11:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i never claimed that 11:31:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: there's a lot less tt-forums whining about how awful OpenTTD developers are since all developers quit 11:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i just said that joining them and mushing all together is a bad idea 11:31:30 <frosch123> actually, not all settings, all except mapgen 11:31:47 <planetmaker> he @ andy 11:31:49 <andythenorth> mapgen is a separate project 11:31:55 <andythenorth> imho 11:32:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=76564 <- i meant the reddit vs other goal servers war 11:32:29 <planetmaker> UI settings; mapgen and new game settings; ingame(?) settings 11:32:34 <planetmaker> what other is there? 11:32:41 * andythenorth sticks to the line that OpenTTD does not have official forums 11:32:44 <frosch123> some would be offended if reddit was linked as general info site :p 11:32:47 <planetmaker> control? 11:32:54 <andythenorth> Github, #OpenTTD 11:32:58 <andythenorth> end of officialness 11:33:31 <andythenorth> I will say though, reddit openttd is cute 11:33:34 <frosch123> planetmaker: ai/gs/grf belong to mapgen? 11:33:35 <andythenorth> I am considering joining 11:33:43 <planetmaker> @frosch123, yes, IMHO 11:33:56 <andythenorth> meh, I am confused about README 11:34:10 <andythenorth> TB suggestion was to rewrite it for casual github visitors 11:34:30 <andythenorth> but it strikes me that a casual GH visitor is in entirely the wrong place 11:34:44 <andythenorth> unless we think GH is where the website should be (totally possible) 11:35:06 <planetmaker> @andythenorth, what is the actual aim of a re-write? what flaws need to be addressed? 11:35:33 <frosch123> anyway, i agree with nielsm. when i look at the two modern games i play regulary, the main gui has maybe 2 buttons to start/load a game, and like 6 buttons to various websites 11:35:40 <planetmaker> if we want (more) documentation on GH (yes, possible), it probably should be outside the readme w/o reducing it much 11:35:52 <frosch123> ottd intro gui is very different 11:35:58 <planetmaker> it's dated :) 11:36:18 <andythenorth> TB: some more serious thought, what would really help for OpenTTD, I think, is if the README.md in the root folder was meant for people visiting 11:36:19 <andythenorth> and in docs/ or something we can put one which is meant for bundling 11:36:24 * andythenorth quoting 11:36:31 <andythenorth> then there are lots of other TB thoughts 11:36:47 <andythenorth> my actual goal isn't rewriting README 11:37:03 <andythenorth> it's cleaning up proper domain for our different types of info 11:38:28 <planetmaker> https://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/pine_start.png and https://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/pine_settings.png is reasonably clear 11:39:07 <andythenorth> +1 11:39:23 <andythenorth> eddi's point that the tree is confusing stands though 11:40:01 <planetmaker> I don't disagree there completely. Yet in lack of an actual improvement proposal... I'm not sure how that brings forward a discussion 11:40:54 <planetmaker> The underlaying problem is that we have about a zillion settings - more than one can reasonably present in many easy-to-overlook ways 11:41:22 <frosch123> the tree is the only viable solution for the advanced settings. there is nothing wrong with a second gui duplicating the basic settings 11:41:36 <frosch123> just that everyone will disagree what settings would be the basic ones :p 11:41:43 <planetmaker> it's so many you *have* to use some hirarchical way to present them - unless you want to completely remove them from UI which is not sensible for many either. We have the basic/adv/expert for a reason 11:41:56 <planetmaker> hehe, yes 11:42:13 <planetmaker> as usual you nailed it 11:42:26 <planetmaker> we should hire you as game designer 11:42:40 <planetmaker> oh, wait... :P 11:43:12 <planetmaker> (just to be sure: there was no irony here) 11:44:05 <andythenorth> if only we could have intrusive player monitoring 11:44:11 <andythenorth> then we could use statistics :P 11:44:25 <andythenorth> consider that irony :) 11:46:06 <andythenorth> hmm, why did I hate the wiki so much? 11:46:39 <LordAro> out of date, for the most part 11:46:49 <planetmaker> https://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/factorio_start.png https://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/factorio_settings.png https://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/factorio_settings_graphics.png is also surprisingly clear... even for the amount of settings presented in the respective details 11:47:12 <andythenorth> LordAro: oh yes that 11:47:23 <andythenorth> I think for gameplay the wiki is super 11:47:33 <andythenorth> it's only the development section that makes me twitch 11:47:43 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Development 11:48:50 * andythenorth looks at https://pandoc.org/ 11:49:27 <planetmaker> hm, looks like an interesting tool :) 11:50:00 <LordAro> oh, the development section is even more out of date than the rest of it 11:50:05 <LordAro> pandoc has its uses 11:50:38 <LordAro> though it concerns me that you brought it up right after the wiki... 11:50:51 <andythenorth> well 11:51:18 <andythenorth> I am sorta kinda hoping to move nml docs to md, preferably automated 11:51:28 <planetmaker> hehe, I didn't want to mention it, LordAro :) 11:51:34 <andythenorth> whether we should have md development docs for OpenTTD is a different question 11:51:40 <andythenorth> I have no strong opinion on it 11:51:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you mean... the one from wiki? 11:52:00 <andythenorth> yes 11:52:27 <planetmaker> what is the benefit? would it be more current? 11:52:42 <andythenorth> it would be helpful when submitting PRs 11:52:46 <andythenorth> they would travel with docs 11:52:59 <andythenorth> i.e. docs would be required as part of PR 11:53:12 <LordAro> non-automated docs have just as much chance of becoming outdated as anything else 11:53:20 <andythenorth> recently nml PR have fallen into a hole where docs don't exist 11:53:28 <andythenorth> so nobody can write test cases 11:53:32 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/z3AV.png that's at least something... 11:53:39 <andythenorth> but because there are no test cases, the PR can't be approved 11:53:39 <nielsm> though markdown doesn't look great this way 11:53:42 <planetmaker> as do obviously the grfspec docs of OpenTTD itself 11:53:48 <planetmaker> re roadtypes or so 11:53:57 <andythenorth> and because the PR is not approved, the docs can't be written 11:54:02 <andythenorth> it's quite silly 11:54:11 <planetmaker> which PR? 11:54:13 <andythenorth> docs with the project is entirely conventiional 11:54:39 <andythenorth> 16-cargo industry, and NRT are the recent examples 11:54:47 <andythenorth> but NML development is just basically unpleasant 11:54:50 <andythenorth> and nobody wants to do it 11:55:02 <planetmaker> point is, currently the NML docs are somewhat in sync with the grfspec, share a lot of info... moving all that into the repo... yes, fine 11:55:21 <andythenorth> nfo docs would have to stay in wiki 11:55:30 <andythenorth> nml isn't nfo :) 11:55:52 <planetmaker> why would they stay in wiki? grfspecs of OpenTTD are documented in exactly the same manner: only if s/o feels like 11:56:03 <planetmaker> it's 100% identical problem 11:56:05 <andythenorth> hmm yes 11:56:13 * andythenorth is now convinced 11:56:34 <planetmaker> (I don't argue you're wrong with moving specs / docs to repo) Just... asking questions :P 11:56:36 <andythenorth> ah 11:56:55 <andythenorth> should the (nfo) newgrf spec go with grfcodec, or openttd? 11:57:02 <andythenorth> strikes me it's an API in OpeNTTD 11:57:09 <planetmaker> openttd, it's its api 11:57:12 <andythenorth> +1 11:57:22 <andythenorth> this historical thing where newgrf belonged to no-one because TTDP 11:57:24 <andythenorth> is historical 11:57:32 <planetmaker> meanwhile.. yes 11:57:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ah, I'd not noticed that railtypes were broken because none of the grfs I was testing with used them 11:57:45 <andythenorth> I haven't bisected FLHerne 11:57:52 <andythenorth> so I don't know if it *ever* worked 11:58:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I suspect it probably didn't :-/ 11:58:01 <planetmaker> railtypes... broken? 11:58:05 <andythenorth> specific issue 11:58:08 <andythenorth> very specific 11:58:37 <andythenorth> compiling railtype (or roadtype) table with multiple labels in a list, using --nml=foo.nml 11:58:42 <andythenorth> fails 11:58:48 <FLHerne> planetmaker: ...if you run `nmlc --nml=out.nml` on code that uses railtype compatibility lists 11:58:49 <andythenorth> FLHerne: filing an issue? :) 11:58:53 <FLHerne> (or roadtypes now) 11:59:01 <andythenorth> https://github.com/openTTD/nml 11:59:07 <FLHerne> Trying to just fix it :P 11:59:12 <andythenorth> that too 11:59:52 <andythenorth> nielsm: do you think it can url parse? :) 12:00:11 <nielsm> it'd be a lot of work to make the file viewer do markdown well 12:00:24 <andythenorth> but we can parse md to other formats... 12:00:25 <nielsm> it also has another issue: files longer than 65535 lines 12:00:30 <FLHerne> It's not blindingly obvious how to, because of the usual arbitrary-format-mutation during compilation... 12:00:37 <nielsm> such as changelog.txt 12:00:40 *** Kitrana1 has joined #openttd 12:00:43 <andythenorth> pagination :D 12:00:45 <FLHerne> I do find that aspect of nml really annoying 12:00:49 <planetmaker> nielsm, is that a real issue or a pathological edge case? 12:01:35 <nielsm> the scrollbar widget limits itself to UINT16_MAX positions 12:01:56 <nielsm> widget_type.h line 673 12:01:58 <LordAro> probably not terribly difficult to change the type 12:02:03 <frosch123> it's completely fine to open the docs in a browser 12:02:30 <FLHerne> Most of the compilation steps /overwrite/ the originally parsed AST in prop variables with odd bits of intermediate state 12:02:46 <frosch123> https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/rimworld_intro.png <- look at that, 7 game related buttons, 8 external links 12:02:48 <nielsm> frosch123: then we just need to make it more browser friendly than plain text is 12:02:57 <LordAro> one of the reasons the game docs weren't added to the viewer originally was that it's quite hard to work out their location when installed 12:03:09 <LordAro> they might even be gzipped 12:03:48 <frosch123> yep, linking externally is a lot easier as long as you do not move the location afterwards :p 12:04:16 <LordAro> slightly modified page on the wiki would be fine, imo 12:04:26 <LordAro> just add "update the wiki page" to the release checklist 12:04:49 <frosch123> for example: the grfcrawler search in ottd does not link diretctly to grfcrawler. there is a redirect page on openttd.org 12:05:46 <andythenorth> I have been thinking a lot about the website content 12:06:01 <andythenorth> my inclination is to keep it really simple, and for almost everything, signpost elsewhere 12:06:13 *** Kitrana has quit IRC 12:06:17 <frosch123> +1 to that 12:06:19 <andythenorth> we mostly do that already 12:06:47 <FLHerne> What's a unified word for {road, rail} ? 12:06:49 <frosch123> i suggest to delete the about page, and delete everything but info@ and translator@ from contact 12:06:49 <FLHerne> 'track'? 12:06:55 <FLHerne> Er, roadtype, railtype 12:07:13 <frosch123> FLHerne: ottd calls trains/road vehicles ground vehicles 12:07:21 <andythenorth> I think 'about' should be replaced by a 'get started' 12:07:27 <andythenorth> which should probably be directly on front page 12:08:58 <andythenorth> so I am wondering about GH root having a DEVELOPMENT.md 12:09:13 <andythenorth> with signposts to all the various kinds of docs 12:09:21 <andythenorth> or whether that can go in CONTRIBUTING without bloating it 12:10:28 <andythenorth> can someone merge? :P https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7781 12:22:42 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 12:35:34 <Wolf01> So, humble bundle monthly going to change (but not for current subscribers), I wanted to switch to yearly payment in january but I did it now to be sure to get the 1 free month even after the change 12:35:40 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:35:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 12:39:26 *** Kitrana1 has quit IRC 12:40:01 *** Kitrana has joined #openttd 12:40:49 *** Flygon has quit IRC 12:54:13 *** Wormnest__ has quit IRC 12:59:55 *** Wormnest__ has joined #openttd 13:32:13 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 13:40:58 <andythenorth> hmm, found some wiki to tidy :P 13:41:00 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_OpenTTD_and_TTDPatch_features 13:47:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window https://git.io/JeBQt 13:53:13 <planetmaker> nielsm, *Changelog; and... license *agreement*? Maybe just "License"? 13:53:45 <andythenorth> pandoc conversion might need...tuning :P https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/pandoc-wiki-test/docs/coding_style.md 13:53:53 <andythenorth> conversion of https://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style 13:54:22 <planetmaker> and tt-forums is sufficiently official. It goes by forum.openttd.org as well 13:55:03 <planetmaker> (thus cannot get more official :) ) 13:55:10 <andythenorth> oof :) 13:55:40 <planetmaker> But if we want to put a link, maybe we link to forum.openttd.org instead of tt-forums.net 13:56:03 <andythenorth> I do think that some of the historical conflict in tt-forums was caused by the OpenTTD takeover 13:56:06 <andythenorth> naming no names 13:56:12 <andythenorth> I think some people felt driven out 13:56:21 <andythenorth> water under the bridge anyway 13:56:25 <andythenorth> now it's JGRPP-forums 13:56:33 <planetmaker> tt-forum is bigger than forum.openttd.org 13:56:42 <andythenorth> so I see :) 13:57:00 <planetmaker> so I actually see there little point to argue against it... 13:57:00 <glx> yeah forum.openttd.org only link to the subforum IIRC 13:57:06 <planetmaker> yep 13:57:17 <planetmaker> but that's fine for our purpose at hand, I think 13:57:28 <andythenorth> eh we could use forum.openttd.org as the link? 13:57:35 <andythenorth> quite interesting 13:57:37 <planetmaker> that's what I argue :) 13:57:56 <andythenorth> I'll amend my draft of the readme 13:57:59 <planetmaker> we could do so for like... forever 13:58:41 <planetmaker> probably at least since the last restructuring of forums 13:59:33 <andythenorth> one day we do something about Development forum :P 14:00:37 <planetmaker> which development forum? 14:00:58 <andythenorth> OpenTTD one. We could maybe have a better sticky pointing to Github 14:01:02 <andythenorth> there is one, but it's not obvious 14:01:25 <planetmaker> was not sure you meant newgrf or openttd :) 14:01:32 <andythenorth> A single sticky like "OpenTTD development takes place on GitHub" might be better 14:02:16 <planetmaker> Well. The "wanted contributions / patches" links exactly there: to GitHub 14:02:43 <planetmaker> and the coding style... is still relevant, too. But maybe can be put in the other 14:02:43 <andythenorth> yes, just think the title could be bettter 14:02:59 <planetmaker> ok, what should it be? "Contributing" ? 14:03:56 <andythenorth> I'd be really explicit and just mention GitHub 14:04:04 <andythenorth> "Want to contribute? Visit Github" 14:04:12 <andythenorth> or "Guide to developing for OpenTTD" 14:04:14 <planetmaker> in the title? 14:04:16 <andythenorth> yes 14:05:56 <andythenorth> I moved forums to 'official' https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/revise-readme-october-2019/README.md#20-contact-and-community 14:06:45 <andythenorth> oof "Pandoc has some issues that affect almost every article that it tries to parse:" 14:06:50 <andythenorth> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare/pandoc 14:08:54 <planetmaker> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58835&p=999904#p999904 ? 14:09:07 <planetmaker> and I will unsticky the coding style one 14:10:47 <andythenorth> pretty good imho 14:16:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window https://git.io/JeBQt 14:22:02 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 14:25:31 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 14:25:42 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 14:26:01 <andythenorth> nielsm: does this change the goal for the readme? 14:26:17 <andythenorth> TB's suggestion was to aim it at GH visitors, but in-game is quite different :) 14:26:30 <nielsm> I don't know :) 14:26:58 * andythenorth checks out the PR 14:26:59 <nielsm> but maybe yes, since being able to view it in-game means you already have the game installed and running 14:27:00 <planetmaker> I don't think that readme should aim at like "github visitors", "ingame audience" or whomever. It's more generic than one platform IMHO 14:28:13 *** Wormnest__ has quit IRC 14:29:02 <planetmaker> However I don't think it's really that much diverging or conflicting goals... 14:29:51 <andythenorth> I think the fact that it still needs to work for people offline is quite a constraint 14:30:14 <andythenorth> it's not really possible to write it like some GitHub projects do, which is a list of links with short descriptions 14:30:24 <andythenorth> it's more like a traditional readme.txt 14:30:41 <andythenorth> but readme.txt is possibly a very bad introduction to our GH project 14:30:58 <planetmaker> So... README.md for github :) 14:31:01 * andythenorth still thinking about the problem 14:31:26 <planetmaker> btw, I don't think that "viewing ingame" is really like "offline" 14:31:48 <andythenorth> what about CD-ROM distribution? 14:31:50 <planetmaker> I really doubt that the majority of audience has no internet connetion and browser 14:32:03 <planetmaker> you mean floppy disc 5 1/4"? 14:32:20 <planetmaker> they get the XP-version :P 14:32:27 <planetmaker> without links 14:32:28 <andythenorth> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/air-force-finally-retires-8-inch-floppies-from-missile-launch-control-system/ 14:33:02 <andythenorth> nielsm: that is one of those features 14:33:13 <andythenorth> where when you see it 14:33:21 <andythenorth> you think "why wasn't this done before?" 14:34:02 <andythenorth> we could do with an abstraction for urls :P 14:34:19 <andythenorth> hmm actually maybe not, probably more hassle than benefit 14:38:43 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 14:41:53 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 14:42:06 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 14:43:46 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 14:51:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite setup.py https://git.io/JeB6b 14:59:58 <nielsm> should perhaps add a ToC pane to the textfile viewer to support really long files? 15:00:28 <nielsm> and use a very basic markdown-like parser to guess at the headlines 15:00:33 <andythenorth> I would sooner delegate to websites :) 15:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: just try parsing as markdown, and if it doesn't work, give up and draw plain text? 15:01:37 <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause: I don't mean rendering markdown 15:01:53 <nielsm> I just mean extracting headlines and showing them in a jumplist 15:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 15:02:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you can still draw things as monospace font, even after parsing markdown stuff 15:03:48 *** microman has quit IRC 15:04:30 <FLHerne> Does this look reasonable? https://github.com/FLHerne/nml/commit/8f0824612e 15:04:51 <FLHerne> (doesn't actually fix the problem yet, but at least means it only needs fixing once...) 15:08:46 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause> deduplicating code is always good... (haven't looked at any details, or what the actual problem is) 15:13:55 <andythenorth> idea looks sound 15:14:03 <andythenorth> I haven't read every line 15:17:11 <FLHerne> Are `feat8_prop` and `not_defined_cond` the right names? 15:17:37 <FLHerne> Hopefully I read the docs right, but they replace unlabeled hex constants so I'm not 100% sure :P 15:18:47 <andythenorth> does it work? :) 15:20:27 <andythenorth> FLHerne: the chances of getting a detailed nml review from someone who actually understands it are low :) 15:20:36 <andythenorth> if the tests pass, and all relevant examples build 15:20:42 <andythenorth> and if you've been really careful 15:20:49 <andythenorth> it's 'probably fine' 15:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: what's a "not_defined_cond"? 15:21:18 <andythenorth> the only way nml quality is going to improve is if some people start poking it, with the risk of breaking things 15:21:27 <andythenorth> but if it breaks in prod, we can just revert and release again 15:24:12 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action7#condition-type 15:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: then maybe "cond_tracktype_not_defined"? 15:26:00 <FLHerne> Right, that seems more readable 15:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: is there precedence for the other condition type? 15:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> *s 15:28:15 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: They're there already, in the duplicated versions 15:28:24 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: (added by NRT) 15:28:44 <andythenorth> the NRT support was copy-paste cargo cult 15:28:46 <andythenorth> FWIW 15:28:46 <FLHerne> I only have to give it a name because previously each version has its own magic number 15:29:09 <FLHerne> You didn't need to tell me that :P 15:30:23 *** crem has quit IRC 15:31:59 *** crem has joined #openttd 16:02:47 <andythenorth> I don't have Windows to test the cx-freeze stuff https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/pull/51 16:03:02 <glx> I tested, it works 16:05:04 <andythenorth> setup.py works for me on mac also 16:05:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite setup.py https://git.io/JeBdq 16:05:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth merged pull request #51: Codechange: Rewrite setup.py https://git.io/JeB6b 16:05:55 <LordAro> oh no, now i'm an NML contributor 16:06:14 <andythenorth> so does that answer the Windows part of this ticket? https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/42 16:06:41 <andythenorth> is there a final set of instructions I can paste in? 16:06:53 <glx> I can continue my testing on https://github.com/glx22/nml/actions :) 16:07:03 <andythenorth> :D 16:07:17 <andythenorth> then you can get it to publish to bundles :P 16:07:26 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/ 16:07:40 <LordAro> neat 16:07:56 <glx> probably needs some secrets to be set in the project settings 16:08:08 <andythenorth> so are the instructions just the two last commands from frosch? https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/42#issuecomment-544194245 16:08:17 <andythenorth> obvs. can't test for myself :P 16:08:23 <Wolf01> andythenorth: got the liebherr. Curses and swearing various gods to apply the discount with the new system. :P 16:08:33 <andythenorth> ouch 16:08:38 <andythenorth> let me know how you find it 16:08:48 <andythenorth> I think my Lego days might be over 16:09:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #42: Document how to release nmlc, including building a windows binary https://git.io/Je8vQ 16:09:55 <glx> it's even simpler now, it's just "python setup.py bdist" 16:10:10 <glx> and you get a .zip in dist 16:10:13 <andythenorth> LordAro: go on, press the green button :) https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7781 16:10:25 <LordAro> glx: should make a requirements.txt file, will simplify the dependency install 16:10:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown https://git.io/JeBdc 16:10:54 <LordAro> sure why not 16:11:00 <glx> requirements depend on platform 16:11:03 <andythenorth> pipenv :P 16:11:05 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> let me know how you find it <- I don't think I'll build it for the next 5 years, I still have to build the bucket wheel and the rough terrain crane XD 16:11:14 <glx> cx-freeze is needed only for windows 16:11:24 <andythenorth> I built the B model for the bucket wheel, not buying any more big lego 16:11:31 <andythenorth> only bought that because the kids really wanted it 16:11:44 <LordAro> glx: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0345/#environment-markers 16:12:11 <LordAro> we wanted to avoid squashing #7781, right? 16:12:47 <glx> the rename then edit ? 16:12:48 <glx> yes 16:12:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7781: Doc: convert some docs to markdown https://git.io/JeBzn 16:13:01 <andythenorth> thx 16:13:30 <andythenorth> there are some obs files I didn't convert https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/docs/obs_format.txt 16:13:33 <andythenorth> and friends 16:13:42 <andythenorth> happy to, if it's worth it 16:14:17 <andythenorth> just has a lot of weird semi-colons and stuff, so I didn't 16:14:40 <andythenorth> my assumption was that's the file format 16:14:48 <LordAro> that's ini comments 16:15:01 <LordAro> it's an example file, not a description 16:15:22 <LordAro> obs_example.ini might be a better name 16:15:52 <andythenorth> give them a dir? or keep docs flat? 16:16:03 <andythenorth> I would like to move some wiki docs into GH /docs 16:16:07 <andythenorth> not all, but a few 16:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i don't think it should be called ".ini" when the resulting file doesn't end in ".ini" either 16:16:44 <andythenorth> shall I rename 'HOWTO_compile_lang_files.md' :D https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/tree/master/docs 16:16:48 <andythenorth> it's quite shouty 16:16:48 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: ...that would make sense, yes 16:17:06 <andythenorth> lang_files.md ? 16:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: -1 16:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> filename should be descriptive 16:18:12 <andythenorth> ok 16:18:27 <andythenorth> and if I consolidate other legacy lang file info into there? 16:18:35 * andythenorth wonders if there's any point to that 16:18:59 <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD#71-translation 16:19:29 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Format_of_langfiles 16:20:02 <frosch123> link to eints 16:20:09 <frosch123> it has the most up-to-date docs about lang files 16:20:12 <frosch123> (i think) 16:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you want to move out compile stuff from the readme, to then merge other stuff into the compile stuff? 16:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't make much sense 16:20:32 <andythenorth> it's about the balance between how many docs are in /docs 16:20:35 <andythenorth> and how long each doc is 16:20:40 <andythenorth> and how general or specific 16:21:02 <andythenorth> all I want is it to be more canonical and have a structure 16:21:44 <andythenorth> I think the correct thing is just to drop the HOWTO from the name 16:22:29 *** m1cr0man has joined #openttd 16:28:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #7787: Doc: rename HOWTO_compile_lang_files.md https://git.io/JeBdy 16:28:38 <andythenorth> git web UI is quite nice for docs edits 16:28:46 <andythenorth> suits my taste more than wiki 16:33:53 <glx> obs.ini.example ? 16:39:54 <glx> https://github.com/glx22/nml/runs/267338516 <-- almost works 16:40:14 <glx> (and I know what fails) 16:40:24 <LordAro> nice 16:40:34 <glx> eol stuff as always 16:40:42 <LordAro> ofc 16:41:14 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7787: Doc: rename HOWTO_compile_lang_files.md https://git.io/JeBFf 16:41:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7787: Doc: rename HOWTO_compile_lang_files.md https://git.io/JeBdy 16:41:55 <LordAro> andythenorth: trouble with GH web UI is that you always end up creating a branch in the repo, not in your fork 16:42:01 <LordAro> which is a bit irritating 16:42:27 <glx> GH web ui works like that 16:43:25 <glx> but we could enable auto delete branch on merge 16:43:36 <LordAro> could do 16:44:20 <glx> but auto delete could be annoying too (for people wanting to keep the branch in their repo) 16:44:55 <glx> even if I don't find a use case for that 16:46:58 *** Etua has joined #openttd 16:47:15 <milek7> https://pypi.org/project/nml/ 16:47:19 <milek7> this needs update probably? 16:48:34 *** m1cr0man has quit IRC 16:48:37 *** Etua has quit IRC 16:48:59 *** Etua has joined #openttd 16:51:15 *** m1cr0man has joined #openttd 16:53:36 <planetmaker> indeed 16:57:30 <andythenorth> LordAro: how about a long-running docs branch? o_O 16:57:34 <andythenorth> dunno if that works 17:04:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: is it possible that you know how to release nml? o_O https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/42 17:04:41 <andythenorth> if that's not lost knowledge :) 17:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> concerning the settings tree: what about if the "basic" settings are a different more newbie-friendly overwiew, and the tree-view gets enabled for the more advanced settings for easier searching? 17:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe VLC does something like that 17:12:41 <milek7> why even there is this weird 'options' 'settings' split 17:12:48 <milek7> historical reasons? 17:14:24 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: partly 17:15:21 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: we already merged the historical difficulty and "patch settings" 17:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: but afair the game options were of a slightly different quality, which didn't fit neatly into the other settings 17:17:18 <glx> https://github.com/glx22/nml/commit/887d5138d4e1105c6bdc521fb2f7a11594d5c8cd/checks?check_suite_id=272996380 <-- it finally works 17:17:46 <glx> it's just a regression workflow but it's a good start 17:18:31 <andythenorth> :) 17:18:49 <andythenorth> newgrf builds in 2020 :) 17:19:09 <andythenorth> I have FIRS building on Azure, and it works fine, but Azure is like being punched in the face with a cold sponge 17:19:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window https://git.io/JeBFX 17:22:46 <frosch123> glx: nice, it even built the extension 17:23:25 <andythenorth> nielsm: I am about to branch for converting known_bugs.txt to .md, does that mess up your PR? :P 17:23:31 <frosch123> oh, wait, i was looking at ubuntu 17:24:09 <nielsm> andythenorth: not much, if you format it well it'll mean less work :) 17:24:23 <nielsm> since currently my ToC parser for known-bugs.txt is broken 17:24:27 <frosch123> not quite sure, but i think win does not build the extension module 17:24:58 <andythenorth> the current known_bugs.txt is an unusual indented format 17:25:17 <andythenorth> I think a heading per bug, followed by plain body copy :P 17:25:44 <andythenorth> unusual / unfamiliar /s :P 17:26:19 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/z3af.mp4 17:29:16 <frosch123> glx: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/python/working-with-c-cpp-python-in-visual-studio?view=vs-2019 <- is something like that available? 17:29:50 <andythenorth> nielsm: maybe we should write a chapter based manual :D 17:29:54 <andythenorth> ...later :P 17:31:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7786: Add: Help and manuals window https://git.io/JeBQt 17:33:13 <glx> hmm I remember seeing it build the extension locally 17:34:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #7613: Generating too many news messages at once crashes the game. https://git.io/fj0w2 17:35:30 <glx> oh my bad, I should use build not build_exe 17:35:47 <andythenorth> nielsm: does your viewer care about 80 char line limit? 17:36:06 * andythenorth never got the memo about 80 char, it's a long time since VT220 17:37:17 <nielsm> the textfile viewer can wrap but my jumplist doesn't handle that properly 17:40:29 *** Etua has quit IRC 17:44:01 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/OpenTTD/blob/convert-known-bugs-to-md/known-bugs.md 17:44:13 <andythenorth> do we want me to link the #nnnn items? 17:45:14 <andythenorth> probably should eh 17:45:20 <nielsm> yeah since it's possible 17:45:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JeBbG 17:45:47 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 18:02:29 <andythenorth> nielsm: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7788 18:04:19 *** Arveen has joined #openttd 18:23:25 <nielsm> hmm... for use with a viewer that supports markdown links properly that would probably be the best formatting yes, but if the viewer (as in my PR currently) doesn't format links then those end up as very long lines 18:23:43 <nielsm> though I'd really prefer to fix the viewer :) 18:25:44 <planetmaker> is there a C++ library for displaying markup? I'd very much presume 'yes' :) 18:26:46 <nielsm> I'm not sure if we can use a straight up display library, at least not without some heavy integration work with the current UI framework 18:27:03 <nielsm> but something to parse markdown to some semi-structured stuff would work 18:28:52 <nielsm> hm, <regex> is C++11, I presume that means it's okay to use? 18:30:45 <frosch123> i would still prefer just opening something in a web browser 18:31:22 <nielsm> then let's add something that translates markdown to html to the build process 18:32:58 <frosch123> why does it need to be a local file? 18:33:51 <nielsm> otherwise the version needs to know how to produce the correct url to its manuals 18:34:09 <andythenorth> why not just have make run a text parser in $scriptlanguage 18:34:22 <nielsm> (if you ignore the question of whether offline machines should be allowed documentation access) 18:34:29 <andythenorth> in newgrf docs, I parse md to multiple formats 18:34:34 <andythenorth> parse / render 18:34:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: yet another build-dep. python and more 18:35:00 <planetmaker> hm, there's a difference between "should" and "is" :) 18:35:14 <planetmaker> and yes... probably right: why not use a browser. Everyone has one 18:35:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7788: Doc: Convert known_bugs.txt to markdown format https://git.io/JeBbN 18:35:35 <frosch123> just yesterday someone ranted at cppcon to not include unnecessariy doc generation in builds 18:35:45 <andythenorth> what if your connection is down? 18:36:07 <planetmaker> if you're outside Germany, that's unlikely :P 18:36:09 * andythenorth isn't very concerned, playing OpenTTD is not exactly critical 18:36:58 <frosch123> if you live offline, you can probably also read unformatted txt 18:37:03 <andythenorth> LordAro: GH links back out again then? :P 18:37:18 <andythenorth> it's really unclear what the best thing to do is for docs 18:37:24 <frosch123> otherwise you would have to consider bundling the wiki tutorial into the downloads 18:37:28 <andythenorth> I lost the markdown argument sometime a while ago :P 18:38:53 <andythenorth> is .md intended to be human readable, or is it source? 18:38:58 <andythenorth> I am a bit unclear 18:39:04 <andythenorth> I always use html for docs if I can :P 18:39:07 <andythenorth> but that was vetoed 18:39:29 <andythenorth> I distrust pseudo-human-readable formats, because they never work 18:40:37 <andythenorth> context is https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/c7401deff5547012139f7a0da322a719e8f39763/known-bugs.md 18:44:02 <frosch123> it's rendered as html, what do you want more? 18:44:48 <nielsm> yes when viewed on github 18:45:01 <andythenorth> appropros of https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7788#issuecomment-544279279 18:45:08 <andythenorth> I am on the fence 18:45:12 <frosch123> well, who do you target? a server admin without gui? a player on a desktop pc? 18:45:21 <andythenorth> this is my question too 18:45:30 <andythenorth> I don't know who the audience is supposed to be :) 18:45:34 <andythenorth> is it Richard Stallman? 18:45:37 <andythenorth> or my kids? 18:45:40 <andythenorth> or what :) 18:45:50 <frosch123> with .md you can catch both. the server guy can read readme.md with less or vi, and the desktop player can be linked to online docs 18:46:26 <andythenorth> the server guy has probably scripted emacs to render it all, and reformat it to a specific line length depending on day of week 18:46:47 <frosch123> readme section 4.2 (the most important part of readme) is important for people who want to copy newgrf onto their server, and for people who get alpha releases from forums or bundles.o.o 18:46:50 <nielsm> I guess you could do something like: const char README_URL[] = "https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/%s/README.md"; sprintf(url, README_URL, REVISION_HASH); OpenBrowser(url); 18:47:08 <frosch123> in both cases you want to link the docs from the forums or similar 18:47:57 <planetmaker> 4.2 is the most-often asked-for section :) By a large margin 18:48:12 <planetmaker> just today I saw like "moving to new computer" in tt-f as background 18:48:36 <frosch123> planetmaker: i told andy earlier, whatever changes in the readme, the numbering for 4.2 must not change :p 18:49:22 <planetmaker> hehe :) 18:49:46 <planetmaker> keeping valid all the answers along the line of "rtfm, section 4.2" :P 18:50:55 <andythenorth> that will present an...interesting challenge :P 18:51:00 <andythenorth> given the way the .md renderer works 18:51:16 <planetmaker> Then soonish the docs in §4.2 will need to contain a sentence like "This section needs to stay §4.2 for hysterical raisons as everything links to §4.2" 18:51:20 <andythenorth> I will have to arbitrarily number preceeding sections 18:51:23 <frosch123> planetmaker: btw. i meant to ask: what to do with coop membership tickets? should we disable eints? and offer project people to convert their repo to git? 18:51:34 <andythenorth> ooh good q 18:52:28 <planetmaker> frosch123, for hosting the repositories, a github repo probably is best... I started to convert some repos... but never really finished it :D 18:52:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] BlackPlague666 commented on issue #7767: Large numbers of trains and signals cause low FPS https://git.io/Je8mF 18:52:54 <planetmaker> As to compiling NewGRFs... I wish to actually get that somewhat more automated so less human admin factor is needed 18:52:59 <planetmaker> but... well... yes 18:53:16 <frosch123> planetmaker: i am not asking about the long term plan, i wonder what to do now 18:53:44 <frosch123> there are like 3 open translator tickets, but it's kind of wrong to give them access 18:54:00 <frosch123> people only want to become translators for firs, and firs translations are currently not used 18:54:08 <planetmaker> should it be wrong for translations? Ah 18:54:09 <planetmaker> hm 18:54:12 <planetmaker> why not? 18:54:19 <planetmaker> why not used? :( 18:54:31 <andythenorth> doesn't work 18:54:37 <andythenorth> TL;DR 18:54:43 <frosch123> firs is on gh, the hg repo keeps on getting some eints commits, but would require manual merge otherwise 18:54:55 <andythenorth> I think I _might_ have deleted the hg repo 18:55:12 <frosch123> all other projects on devzone are inactive as well, so there is kind of little point in devzone eints anymore 18:55:16 <andythenorth> possibly only from redmine, rather than the actual repo 18:55:23 <andythenorth> but afaict devzone eints is dead? 18:55:23 <planetmaker> right... so can we talk eints into committing to (various) GH repos? 18:55:47 <andythenorth> yes, it's likely quite more complex 18:55:53 <planetmaker> yes, you're right... mostly little point. I saw a few translation changes on a few repos... but very very few 18:56:13 <nielsm> re. https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/7767 - that latest screenshot really looks like an issue with the server or between client and server 18:56:27 <frosch123> planetmaker: you just need some gh bot user, like dorpsgek 18:56:52 <frosch123> and then people need to configure their gh to give push access to that one 18:56:59 <andythenorth> eh without wanting to claim anyone's time....could we publish the dev blog post? https://github.com/OpenTTD/website/pulls 18:57:17 <andythenorth> I doubt that I've written anything that can actually harm us 18:57:50 <andythenorth> I didn't include any malware links, not knowingly anyway 18:57:56 <andythenorth> and there's no javascript coin miner 18:59:36 <planetmaker> frosch123, so... that user needs eints access and repo access... configured on a per-project basis 19:00:04 <nielsm> that's a GH "application" 19:00:17 <nielsm> or oauth cookie 19:00:39 <nielsm> you'd give the eints instance permission to act on your behalf on the repository 19:00:46 <frosch123> planetmaker: essentially, we can setup it for firs, and assume that noone else will need it 19:01:07 <andythenorth> then I can cargo cult it :P 19:01:22 <andythenorth> presumably, whatever was done for ottd master GH is reusable? 19:01:31 <frosch123> the main thing that does not work is automatic eints setup via redmine roles 19:01:33 <andythenorth> we have translation commits? 19:01:46 <andythenorth> how do trunk translators get auth? 19:01:54 <andythenorth> oh yeah, they mail that random address :) 19:01:56 <andythenorth> I remember 19:02:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: think smaller :) 19:02:39 <frosch123> we don't need a solution that works for 300 projects 19:02:53 <andythenorth> no, but Iron Horse gets translations 19:02:54 <andythenorth> so 2 19:03:58 <planetmaker> frosch123, it actually would be nice to have a solution that works for more than just firs 19:04:09 <frosch123> planetmaker: so, suggestion would be, disable all current eints projects, and only readd firs and iron horse 19:04:10 <andythenorth> I just wondered, given that we have 1, why not make 1 n 19:04:26 <planetmaker> frosch123, but ... it would actually be nice, when the openttd translators could opt-in to also translate NewGRFS (and ai, basesets,...) 19:04:39 <andythenorth> reducing the number of things we have 19:04:40 <frosch123> sure, when there are some 19:05:02 <frosch123> i don't see the demand 19:05:15 <andythenorth> I did wonder about just saying 'send PRs' for newgrfs 19:05:34 <planetmaker> frosch123, so what solution would solve it for 2 but not for $configured others? 19:05:43 *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd 19:06:01 <planetmaker> I'd find that really sad 19:06:07 <frosch123> planetmaker: manually creating checkouts on the eints vm and making andy give access for some bot 19:06:10 <andythenorth> frosch123 I could just give specific people PR rights on a branch? 19:06:11 <planetmaker> I did have this year updates for some of my newgrfs 19:06:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: making eints create prs is a lot more work, than just making eints push directly 19:06:56 <andythenorth> oh I was just going to have people do it 19:07:04 <andythenorth> as an alternative low-fi solution 19:07:08 <andythenorth> it's not ideal 19:09:58 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 19:09:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 19:10:39 <planetmaker> frosch123, I'd prefer to have an app which authors can integrate in their repo. Then they can apply for eints and it will be added. 19:10:51 <planetmaker> I know... maybe it's wishful thinking :) 19:11:20 <andythenorth> I have some kind of Azure connection on my account 19:11:25 <andythenorth> and I authorise it per repo 19:11:37 <andythenorth> they have some name, like GH service or something 19:11:38 * andythenorth looks 19:11:49 <frosch123> planetmaker: https://translator.openttdcoop.org/projects <- how many of those projects are active? 19:12:06 <andythenorth> Installed GitHub Apps 19:12:20 <frosch123> which of those projects would you consider to point out to translators, who actually want someone to get their translations from bananas somewhen 19:12:35 <andythenorth> https://developer.github.com/apps/ 19:12:41 <andythenorth> ^ nice, but it's engineering 19:12:52 <andythenorth> we have quite a lot of engineering already, and it only just stays alive :P 19:12:55 <frosch123> there is silicon valley on that list, i think i made the last release 5 years ago 19:13:13 <frosch123> the translations since then are only on bundles, so basically noone gets them 19:14:14 <frosch123> i think it's unfair to translators to direct their efforts to unmaintened projects 19:15:36 <planetmaker> well, ok. Let's shut it down 19:15:43 <planetmaker> :( 19:16:11 <frosch123> so: clear the list, readd gh stuff manually? 19:16:53 *** tokai has quit IRC 19:17:12 <planetmaker> well, but can eints handle the git repos? I guess it can... openttd uses it after all 19:17:25 <planetmaker> so, yes, changing the repo links to github manually would work 19:17:30 <frosch123> it can already do that on devzone 19:17:33 <frosch123> skye_rails is git 19:17:42 <planetmaker> yes 19:18:16 <frosch123> so, what shall we call the user? 19:18:26 <frosch123> or should we hijack dorpsgek to also work for coop? 19:18:39 <planetmaker> what about... webster? 19:19:04 <glx> https://github.com/glx22/nml/runs/267376511#step:6:126 <-- funny it fails only for python 3.5 19:19:08 <andythenorth> well 19:19:11 <andythenorth> I did have 19:19:12 <frosch123> https://github.com/webster <- already exists 19:19:16 <andythenorth> some ideas....around bananas 2 :P 19:19:26 <andythenorth> where releases are automatic from translations :P 19:19:39 <andythenorth> I discovered some serious latency in releasing some translations for my grfs 19:20:06 <andythenorth> which I felt bad about :P 19:20:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: you are the only one releasing at all :p 19:20:30 <andythenorth> really? 19:20:39 <frosch123> what do you think when was the last release of opensfx and openmsx? 19:20:44 <andythenorth> my stuff gets kicked off the front page of bananas quite fast 19:20:48 <planetmaker> a decade ago :) 19:21:00 <andythenorth> https://bananas.openttd.org/en 19:21:37 <andythenorth> my (no data) impression is that newgrf dev is as healthy as ever 19:21:38 <frosch123> with the exception of nutracks, none of that stuff is on devzone. and the nutrack guy is waiting for a new ssh-token to be installed on devzone 19:21:54 <frosch123> and i would rather offer them migration to gh than update the ssh key 19:22:00 * andythenorth also had a hopeful idea that bundles could die, and be handled in bananas 2 :P 19:22:07 <andythenorth> bundles should not need to exist at all, it's daft 19:22:44 <andythenorth> I mean, it's lovely, and was really useful :) 19:22:50 <planetmaker> ok, andythenorth. I shall stop the migration of stuff to a new server and spare me all that and shut down end-of-year. Got me convinced 19:22:55 <planetmaker> was that the aim? 19:23:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: around ottd 0.6 newgrf were made by artists, from 1.0 to 1.2 stuff moved to coders using vcs, now stuff is back to artists with no clue about vcs 19:23:20 <andythenorth> a few have github 19:23:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: focus on stuff that you would use yourself 19:23:54 <andythenorth> +1 19:24:07 <andythenorth> coop was great, when there were more people helping 19:24:16 <andythenorth> now it's just an unfair maintenance burden on 2 people 19:24:59 <frosch123> planetmaker: my probably flawed impression is that 90% of industry sets are forks for firs, but noone uses a vcs 19:25:20 <planetmaker> dunno about industry sets newer than FIRS :P 19:25:48 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 19:25:55 <planetmaker> well, if people nowadays need convincing to use VCS... they are mostly a lost cause 19:25:58 <planetmaker> IMHO 19:26:07 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 19:26:21 <planetmaker> I'm reasonably shocked time and again by some of my collegues... 19:26:52 <frosch123> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=26 <- i think andy is the only vcs user on that page 19:27:59 <planetmaker> looking through the list of topics on the first page: I concur 19:29:29 <planetmaker> right... ok, so what shall be done: Migrate all repositories to github. 19:29:38 <planetmaker> make devzone read-only 19:30:17 <planetmaker> And create anew from scratch whatever suits me :P 19:30:23 <planetmaker> as my pet toys :P 19:30:37 <planetmaker> we keep eints running for those who like... how do we manage accounts? 19:31:21 <frosch123> 1. make devzone readonly, 2. backup all repositories to gh as closed repositories, 3. offer people to transfer ownership of their repositories to their user, if they want to, 4. setup eints for <5 projects 19:31:40 <planetmaker> what you mean with 'closed repositories'? 19:31:49 <andythenorth> I have no particular goal for coop, but what I really like about it....was that it was truly cooperative 19:32:15 <glx> archive repo 19:32:16 <frosch123> planetmaker: like openttd-deprecated, it has a "archived" thingie next to it 19:32:22 <andythenorth> I seem to recall that there were as many as 10-12 people all working in similar direction on coop projects 19:32:23 <planetmaker> ah, k 19:32:45 <andythenorth> it was a nice time 19:33:02 <planetmaker> yes... there were a lot of people doing stuff 19:33:07 <planetmaker> quite active times 19:33:50 <planetmaker> like 3 people caring for the server who were constantly around. And many more writing NewGRFs and making use of the server 19:34:19 <planetmaker> similar actually on the OpenTTD side... it kinda all shrank by 2/3 19:36:11 <frosch123> planetmaker: you already moved projects to gh/openttdcoop. how did you select those projects? 19:36:19 <frosch123> just so i can figure out which ones still need moving 19:36:40 <andythenorth> eh, yes peak commits are very much lower https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/graphs/contributors 19:36:49 <planetmaker> some randomly, then started alphabetically from top 19:36:53 <frosch123> oh, also, i moved all projects that i considered "mine" to my account, not to openttdcoop 19:36:58 <andythenorth> same 19:37:03 <andythenorth> mine are all on GH 19:37:17 <andythenorth> on my account 19:38:25 <frosch123> ok, i'll see whether i can get that done next week 19:38:59 <frosch123> s/next/this/ 19:39:16 <andythenorth> are issues moving? 19:39:37 <planetmaker> just for curiosity, what are your pet projects, frosch123 ? :) 19:40:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: no 19:40:27 <frosch123> planetmaker: what do you mean? 19:40:54 <planetmaker> those which you moved... I guess I can just check GH :P 19:41:07 <frosch123> just those were i made 99% of commits 19:41:20 <frosch123> +h 19:42:27 <frosch123> i have no projects where i contributed 50% or something, either "most" or "barely anything" 19:42:30 <planetmaker> backdraw of GH: you don't find openttd-related repos any longer, if you don't know what exactly 19:43:38 <frosch123> i would go to bananas, get the name, then google github+name 19:43:40 <planetmaker> and thus... actually I cannot look-up on GH :P 19:44:01 <planetmaker> failed for you 19:44:05 <frosch123> i do the same for mods of other games 19:45:00 <frosch123> planetmaker: ok, it's hard for "silicon valley", but the rest should work 19:45:51 <frosch123> hmm, i see, google cannot handle CamelCase that well 19:46:07 <planetmaker> really? I don't see that working for OpenTTD 19:46:08 <frosch123> "github debugvehicles" works, "github debug vehicles" does not 19:46:33 <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mean. You only find stuff where you know very exactly what to look for 19:47:32 <frosch123> ah, well, bananas2 will provide source links 19:48:55 <andythenorth> extend action 14 :P 19:49:00 <frosch123> it gets better if you also add "openttd" to the search term 19:49:07 <andythenorth> in the openttd commits, it's interesting to de-overly some people :P 19:49:17 <andythenorth> the huge early spike is significantly Rubi 19:49:21 <andythenorth> frosch is fairly constant 19:49:33 <andythenorth> peter goes through a bunch of intense commits then a break 19:50:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: i figured that contributors are randomly missing from the stats 19:50:30 <andythenorth> did rubi commit a lot of other people's patches also? 19:50:44 <andythenorth> I seem to remember something in early logs and forums :P 19:50:57 <frosch123> yes, rubi did almost everything 19:51:12 <frosch123> took, patches, refactored them and later maintained them 19:51:19 <andythenorth> maintainer burnout :P 19:51:20 <andythenorth> oof 19:51:33 <frosch123> he is the only reason why there was a low-mark of 14 open bug reports around 1.0 19:51:40 <andythenorth> ha 19:51:53 <andythenorth> anyway, I'm not sure how to express my feelings on coop accurately :P 19:52:14 <andythenorth> coop was great, then things started to break that I can't fix, so it was less great 19:52:32 <andythenorth> but moving everything to non-shared, non-repeatable stuff seems less good 19:52:41 <andythenorth> but it's JFDI and I don't have to wait on other people 19:53:14 <andythenorth> of all the things that kill me in open source, it's the async nature of getting work done :P 19:53:43 <andythenorth> but I miss coop happy times 19:53:57 <frosch123> well, blame nml :p grf development moved back to little-tech-safy people, so vcs , coop and gh workflows are too advanced 19:54:04 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 19:54:06 <andythenorth> ha ha 19:54:18 <andythenorth> I never wanted to adopt nml, I nearly rage quit when FIRS was converted to it 19:54:28 <andythenorth> in retrospect...that was silly :) 19:54:32 <frosch123> it was very different when yexo, ammler and planetmaker were coders for 90% of grfs, herding dozens of artists 19:55:10 <andythenorth> #openttdcoop.devzone used to be busier than #openttd 19:55:20 <glx> next step will be a GUI to generate nml ;) 19:55:27 <andythenorth> then yexo, foobar, terkhen all got jobs etc 19:55:28 <frosch123> oh my... i just remembered ammler writing nfo grfs via shell scripts 19:55:42 <andythenorth> you don't remember CPP variadic macros? 19:55:50 <andythenorth> a thing that should never have been 19:56:05 <andythenorth> glx: a GUI would be full circle 19:56:19 <andythenorth> I built a web-based 'make me a ships grf' tool 19:56:39 <frosch123> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/swisstowns/repository/entry/make.sh <- oi, there are even shell scripts generating nml 19:56:41 <planetmaker> Maybe... https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/view/DevZone/job/upload-test/ is the way to go: request a somewhat standard entry point or configuration for NewGRFs and then people can build it w/o much setting up anything and getting a return result 19:58:14 <glx> github actions can do that 19:58:16 <frosch123> planetmaker: for what use case? people know how to build grfs locally 19:58:20 <planetmaker> yes... yexo and rubi left gaps behind 19:58:38 <planetmaker> for those who don't :P 19:59:31 <glx> create a workflow file in a newgrf repo, then any one can copy it to their personnal repo 19:59:35 <frosch123> devzone consists of repo, eints, and bundles. repo should go to gh, eints is doable on small scale and sufficient, i just have no idea about bundles 19:59:59 <frosch123> though i guess bundles also works on small scale 20:00:45 <frosch123> glx: wasn't the problem with hosting the artefacts? 20:01:39 <glx> the problem is to pass artefacts between workflow runs 20:02:09 <glx> but in this case they just need to stay in the workflow 20:04:07 <glx> hmm I still don't understand why build_ext fails for python 3.5 20:04:22 <glx> I tried ugrading setup tools, still fail 20:04:41 <LordAro> link the results? 20:04:48 <andythenorth> this is published from Azure to AWS https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/firs/docs/html/get_started.html 20:05:03 <andythenorth> it's only a basic proof of concept, it does nothing properly 20:05:06 <glx> https://github.com/glx22/nml/runs/267437814#step:6:126 20:05:12 <LordAro> frosch123: andythenorth: it would be really neat to rework eints into a GH app 20:05:14 <andythenorth> but passing artefacts is fine 20:05:22 <andythenorth> the problem is creds 20:05:49 <andythenorth> for Azure I give it a GH service (revokable) and AWS service point (revokable) 20:06:06 <glx> https://github.com/glx22/nml/runs/267437819#step:6:126 <-- 3.6 is ok 20:06:23 <andythenorth> storing, e.g. bundles ssh (sftp, scp) creds directly in people's Azure accounts is a big non-non-non 20:06:25 <LordAro> glx: that feels familiar to me. could be related to how python3.5 that they're using was compiled 20:06:36 <andythenorth> and that's even if I could find the keystore tool, which exists somewhere 20:06:38 <frosch123> LordAro: what does that actually mean? gh authentication for translators? 20:06:50 <frosch123> or is there more gh hosted stuff i do not know about 20:07:11 <andythenorth> frosch123: it would be similar to the way I've given Azure access to GH 20:07:24 <frosch123> so, just oauth2 stuff 20:07:29 <andythenorth> basically 20:07:40 <glx> LordAro: but VC++ 14+ is installed 20:07:42 <andythenorth> there's a key, and so on 20:07:53 <frosch123> i have that 50% done, but did not figure out a test strategy 20:07:58 <andythenorth> and it's managed in GH as a provider, not in the consuming app 20:08:07 <glx> unless they want exactly 14.0 20:08:15 <LordAro> frosch123: i *think* you could enable eints on a repo, and then translators would then use some eints frontend (coop or otherwise) to submit translations, and eints could commit them to the repo 20:08:20 <LordAro> glx: possible 20:08:31 <andythenorth> how about a totally upside down idea 20:08:50 <andythenorth> (multiple apps behind the scenes, but call it bananas 2 from the user point of view) 20:08:52 <LordAro> glx: trouble is, GH actions is too new, can't find other people's solutions :p 20:08:56 <andythenorth> bananas 2 adds a project as a remote 20:09:05 <frosch123> glx: there is some --compiler=... parameter to setup.py 20:09:11 <andythenorth> bananas 2 has a dedicated translations repo, with a branch for each project 20:09:21 <frosch123> i have no idea how and whether setuptools autodetects compilers 20:09:28 <andythenorth> bananas 2 never commits to the project for translations 20:09:49 <andythenorth> when there's a push to the project, bananas 2 pulls the remote and rebases the local translations branch 20:10:05 <LordAro> seems to me like more output is required first anyway 20:10:12 <andythenorth> then, if there are changes > threshold, it publishes a trivial version bump on the content service 20:10:18 <LordAro> (and preferrably it should fail when the extension build fails) 20:10:29 <glx> hmm I have an idea 20:10:33 <LordAro> (that's probably the "optional" in setup.py) 20:11:16 <frosch123> i can only find examples with --compiler=mingw32 20:12:15 <glx> maybe it relies on environment for python 3.5 20:12:27 <glx> let's try setting that 20:12:28 <andythenorth> oof, if the project included docs, bananas 2 could then publish those, using GitHub Pages, and it's weird headless docs branch, with a path like firs/version/docs, ecs/version/docs 20:12:38 <andythenorth> wow 20:12:54 <andythenorth> one uber repo for content 20:13:02 * andythenorth wonders about the malware exploit funtimes 20:14:17 <LordAro> https://wiki.python.org/moin/WindowsCompilers#Which_Microsoft_Visual_C.2B-.2B-_compiler_to_use_with_a_specific_Python_version_.3F suggests that 3.5+ all use MSVC 14.x 20:14:29 <LordAro> are you sure it's installed for the 3.5 image? 20:17:07 <glx> C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio19\Enterprise\VC\Tools\MSVC.23.28105\bin\HostX86\x64\link.exe 20:17:13 <glx> that's what 3.6 uses 20:17:25 <glx> but maybe I should try x86 instead 20:25:36 <LordAro> probably won't exist, VS compiler paths are weird 20:30:41 <glx> yup for 3.6 and 3.7 no issue with both x86 and x64, 3.5 fails for both 20:30:42 <glx> https://github.com/glx22/nml/commit/0b3bf655a9da3cdeaceba6d6edddd32269661b60/checks?check_suite_id=273110009 20:30:57 <glx> and I "broke" some stuff ;) 20:34:05 <frosch123> he, so for 3.7 it works on windows, but not on ubuntu x86 20:34:42 <glx> x86 is windows only it seems 20:36:33 <frosch123> ah, now the 3.5 windows build contains an error about msvc 14 missing 20:36:49 <frosch123> but well, if 3.7 works :) 20:39:53 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 20:40:30 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 20:48:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] andythenorth opened pull request #107: Add: more screenshots https://git.io/JeBxc 20:49:45 *** gelignite has quit IRC 20:49:53 <andythenorth> o_O 20:49:58 <andythenorth> website release? 20:52:22 <LordAro> probably 20:52:59 <andythenorth> LordAro: you have some unreviewed PRs from April 20:53:02 <andythenorth> I am looking 20:53:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] planetmaker approved pull request #107: Add: more screenshots https://git.io/JeBx8 20:53:34 <LordAro> andythenorth: on the website? they're incomplete, or need splitting up, or something 20:53:47 <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/website/pull/80 20:53:50 <LordAro> unfortunately the other person interested in doing website restructuring got bored 20:54:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro approved pull request #105: Drop supported operating systems list from 'About' https://git.io/JeBx4 20:54:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] LordAro merged pull request #105: Drop supported operating systems list from 'About' https://git.io/Je4M4 20:55:19 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd 20:56:49 <andythenorth> I deliberately didn't review that PR soz 20:57:08 <andythenorth> html style is a thing that is prone to opinion-stated-as-fact 20:57:19 <LordAro> mm 20:57:19 <andythenorth> or even misunderstanding-stated-as-fact :P 20:57:28 <andythenorth> and it's too much like my day job to trade it back and forth 20:57:39 <andythenorth> the diff looked basically fine 20:57:55 <andythenorth> but nitpicking markup is a waste of life, either the page is valid and renders, or it isn't and doesn't 20:59:06 *** Etua has joined #openttd 20:59:51 <andythenorth> I was full of good intentions though :P https://github.com/OpenTTD/website/pull/82#issuecomment-482935157 20:59:59 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 21:09:08 <LordAro> andythenorth: too late now 21:09:12 <LordAro> :p 21:09:12 *** Etua is now known as Guest5582 21:09:16 *** Etua has joined #openttd 21:09:28 <LordAro> i'm sure i'll get into another websitey mood at some point, the PRs aren't going anywhere 21:10:47 <andythenorth> if the GH docs stuff gets sorted, a new website _might_ just appear in a PR :P 21:10:55 <andythenorth> one thing at a time :P 21:14:28 *** Guest5582 has quit IRC 21:17:10 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:28:48 <andythenorth> shall I move code style to GH? https://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style 21:29:04 <andythenorth> most of the dev stuff could stay in wiki, it's guidance 21:29:10 <andythenorth> but code style is canonical? 21:30:26 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:32:34 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 21:43:06 <LordAro> eh 21:44:20 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:49:39 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:51:48 *** Etua has quit IRC 22:06:08 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:15:07 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:17:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kernigh commented on issue #7648: Dead keys aren't interpreted correctly when typing accented letters (Linux) https://git.io/fjPh9 22:49:26 *** k-man has joined #openttd 22:52:03 *** nielsm has quit IRC 23:09:44 *** Markk has quit IRC 23:12:58 *** Markk has joined #openttd 23:34:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:39:58 *** arikover has quit IRC