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Works surprisingly well actually 15:48:28 * andythenorth watched a video :P 15:53:01 <planetmaker> video looks quite ok-ish 15:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what openttd 3d thing? 15:53:42 <planetmaker> his idea of how to work with and discuss and share source code... can be improved :) 15:54:26 <planetmaker> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=86412 15:57:16 <nnyby> looks cool! 15:59:05 <andythenorth> https://twitter.com/PixelProspector/status/1202254357196103681 15:59:12 <andythenorth> it's the in thing 15:59:41 <nielsm> yes the source-dump-tarball is a bad sign, you ought to work in git right from the start 16:00:05 <nielsm> even if you just do git commit -a -m wip 16:00:23 <planetmaker> ^^ 16:00:57 <planetmaker> it's not even a source tar ball. It's just the src dir. So that doesn't compile 16:01:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that video makes some of the dimension distortion quirks more apparent 16:02:00 *** Wormnest_ has joined #openttd 16:07:49 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 16:14:02 <andythenorth> oh daylength fixes road vehicle payments apparently 16:14:08 * andythenorth reading Reddit 16:14:16 <andythenorth> Reddit is now switched to JGR also, as well as forums 16:15:11 <nielsm> what about road vehicle payments needs fixing? 16:16:19 <FLHerne> I still think you're seeing things ;-) 16:16:47 <andythenorth> nielsm apparently RVs don't make money, and daylength fixes that 16:17:13 <andythenorth> https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/e4kjtm/what_is_the_jgr_patch/ 16:18:25 <andythenorth> is it time to just merge in JGR as vanilla? 16:19:53 <FLHerne> andythenorth: In multiplayer, there are 81 people playing vanilla and 4 playing JGRPP 16:20:05 <FLHerne> Of course, that's probably biased the other way 16:20:17 <andythenorth> interesting metric 16:20:29 <FLHerne> [on listed servers, obv] 16:20:42 <andythenorth> that's a long way from 'most' 16:21:07 <FLHerne> But I said before, self-selecting forum users aren't at all a representative demographic 16:21:11 <andythenorth> so most people who post in forums / reddit, have switched 16:21:13 <andythenorth> not most players 16:21:35 <FLHerne> I think that's also true of newgrfs? 16:22:11 <FLHerne> People bothering to watch forums are those who've been playing the game for years 16:22:36 <FLHerne> Especially TT-forums, because old-school forums that aren't controlled by a US megacorp are obsolete :P 16:23:15 <FLHerne> So are much more likely than casual players to have got bored and started using weird stuff 16:26:54 <FLHerne> Correction - there are 10 further players on old vanilla versions, and 8 on 1.10-beta 16:27:05 <FLHerne> So in total there are 99 vanilla players 16:27:08 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 16:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if this "digital tax" thing does anything to decentralize this stuff again 16:28:53 <supermop_work> the old chillpp before cdist was merged seemed to be the last time that a patchpack / fork felt like the defacto 'main' version 16:29:06 <supermop_work> that was like 10 years ago? 16:29:14 <FLHerne> Yeah, I remember that 16:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_work: people claim that JGR is the "default" nowadays 16:29:55 <supermop_work> people claim that, but it's proabably self selecting? 16:29:59 <milek7_> spnda: i wonder if that binary is really built from that source tarball 16:30:36 <spnda> I doubt it 16:30:43 <milek7_> sprintf_s(opts, "%s%s", _use_shadows_set ? "#define SHADOWS\r\n" : "", _multisample_set ? "#define MULTISAMPLE\r\n" : ""); 16:30:51 <spnda> I had to build it from the source to get the lang files as he does not provide them in the binary 16:31:21 <supermop_work> i think cdist andd maybe MHL were 'must have features', espescially for MP, enough to motivate large numbers of people to use a non-standard version 16:31:21 <spnda> Also using no or MSAA AA makes the game unplayable 16:31:50 <supermop_work> but i'm not sure jgr has such a killer feature 16:32:24 <milek7_> this sprintf_s call looks bugged 16:32:28 <spnda> One screenshot I did which shows some issues quite clearly: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/477434889508093952/651794856779448320/unknown.png 16:32:34 <supermop_work> especially if people can't agree what daylength should do? 16:33:09 <andythenorth> it fixes RVs 16:33:10 <andythenorth> :P 16:33:24 <supermop_work> RVs make plenty of money in vanilla for me 16:33:44 <planetmaker> depends somewhat on their route. But it should :) 16:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> spnda: that's looking like missing sprites, e.g. rivers 16:34:00 <milek7_> i had to remove glTexParameterf(GL_TEXTURE_2D_ARRAY, GL_TEXTURE_LOD_BIAS, 0.5); because ui looked like that: https://i.imgur.com/4yPs6wE.png 16:34:10 <planetmaker> to me it looks like wrong offsets i nthe screen 16:34:11 <supermop_work> also RVs are boring, not sure i'd go to trouble of a patch pack to subtly change the behavior of them 16:34:56 <spnda> Eddi|zuHause: not sure. But it could probably be it. 16:35:06 <supermop_work> and if a rv set has costs that makes the RVs lose money with normal time, isn't that just a poorly balanced newgrf? 16:35:09 <milek7_> terrain is missing on new game, needs save/load 16:35:14 <spnda> milek7_ you need to up your AA. That fixes that UI issue 16:35:23 <spnda> I have it on maximum 16:35:38 <milek7_> ie. after saving and loading it looks fine 16:35:43 <milek7_> no, for me it is not AA problem 16:35:59 <milek7_> with lod bias it sampled sprites from wrong mipmap 16:36:09 <planetmaker> good question I tend to agree with @supermop_work 16:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> daylength should have no effect on profitability 16:37:19 <supermop_work> default, ogfx+, RH, eGRVTs, My RVs, all seem to make heaps of cash under nearly any settings in vanilla 16:37:39 <planetmaker> depends: measured in realtime or game time? 16:38:20 <nielsm> because daylength as implemented affects how often various daily/monthly/yearly things happen 16:38:29 <nielsm> so vehicles pay less maintenance depending on settings 16:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that depends on if you also want to scale production by daylength 16:38:37 <nielsm> which is wrong imo 16:39:33 <supermop_work> nielsm: but still i can't think of a case where RVs in vanilla would consistently lose money and daylength is the only solution 16:39:36 <planetmaker> exactly... there's no completely correct solution to daylength. It's a matter of how you want to scale things. Wether you care about game time. or realtime revenue 16:39:40 <nielsm> production rates, costs, etc, should all be on fixed to tick counts 16:39:56 <planetmaker> I tend to agree with nielsm 16:39:58 <supermop_work> unless you mess with the running costs etc to a crazy degree, 16:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's been the issue all along: you need to carefully figure out which effects should be scaled by game time (years, months), or real time (ticks) 16:40:08 <planetmaker> otherwise it becomes like unplayable slow to make revenue 16:40:43 <nielsm> which is why I like the "daylength" approach transport fever 2 takes (based on my limited understanding from watching one youtuber playing it) 16:40:48 <planetmaker> the important issue most often is that people don't want to rush through the game years so they can enjoy $VEHICLE for longer as a useful one 16:40:55 <supermop_work> and then it is like 'I willfully made an unplayable RV set, not change the whole rest of the game to accomodate it" 16:40:55 <nielsm> yes 16:41:14 <planetmaker> yes 16:41:39 <andythenorth> apparently daylength reduces cargo aging 16:41:48 <nielsm> instead of calling it daylength, make a new NoCalendar patch which decouples the calendar from the economy 16:42:08 <nielsm> all economy events run on tick counts (real time) instead of calendar time 16:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's more issues, like sparse towns/industries and low production rates should allow for "light" traffic (single track lines, etc.), which is currently not possible to configure 16:42:19 <nielsm> only technology runs on calendar time 16:42:40 <supermop_work> planetmaker: i understand nostalgia as a motivation for a slower game, and i understand a desire for slower train scheduling, to fit in various types of traffic, 16:43:21 <supermop_work> but i cannot accept 'fixing payments / costs as they are in Vanilla" because it makes no sense unless self-inflicted 16:43:52 <planetmaker> so... like set of separate parameters. Which have separate pre-sets for easier configuration, but also a custom version where you can set everything? 16:43:59 <planetmaker> normal: everything as now 16:44:36 <planetmaker> day speed: more ticks per day 16:44:51 <planetmaker> industry speed: industry callbacks per month 16:45:04 <planetmaker> vehicle speed: ticks between movement callbacks 16:45:16 <planetmaker> maybe like that? 16:45:45 <planetmaker> (or along those lines. Details need fleshing out. But anyone could find their own optimal solution - and presets could easily be changed) 16:45:52 <milek7_> for building 3d build on linux: https://github.com/Milek7/OpenTTD/commits/3d 16:48:30 <spnda> milek7_: does your version have any missing sprites or any other issues? 16:49:40 <milek7_> after save/load cycle it looks like on his video 16:53:01 <spnda> Oh yeah. That seems to fix those black tiles. Though for me water is still black.... hmm 16:53:48 <spnda> And I think he limited this whole thing to 30fps... 16:55:34 <nielsm> maybe it's vsync limited? 16:55:47 <spnda> wouldn't vsync sync to the monitors refresh rate 16:55:50 <LordAro> good ol' crazy russian programmers 16:57:13 <supermop_work> planetmaker: that certainly seems like the best approach technically to be all things to all people 16:57:39 <supermop_work> but would it be inscrutable to most users, even experienced users? 16:58:18 <supermop_work> with so many variables, it might take real years of trial and error to figure out what values produce the effect you want 16:58:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:58:46 <milek7_> it is limited to 30fps the same as vanillia openttd, on ffwd it runs faster 16:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i vaguely remember there being discussions along those lines, not sure if there was an actual patch 16:59:57 <supermop_work> or when connecting to a server advertising 'cdist' you know passenger distribution is probably on, maybe cargos as well, and the nuanced weights you can kind of ignore when deciding to join the game 16:59:57 <andythenorth> add it to the newgrf spec 17:00:45 <supermop_work> but a server that says 'daylength on' - how do i know how that will be manifested? 17:00:57 <andythenorth> well it's just JGR no? 17:01:03 * andythenorth may have missed something 17:01:19 <supermop_work> maybe this game you'll be swimming in money, maybe have almost none 17:01:26 <andythenorth> daylength is done, just needs all industry newgrfs rewritten 17:01:52 <supermop_work> andythenorth: planetmaker's approach can leave industries as is 17:02:52 <supermop_work> industries would behave how the user wants them to behave. if the user sets the industry callback setting to an unplayable setting that's really on them 17:12:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The reason it's never been merged is because the existing implementation is a hack that changes things arbitrarily and breaks stuff 17:12:31 <andythenorth> players say it's fine? 17:12:54 <andythenorth> has anyone here actually tried it? 17:13:02 <FLHerne> Yes, I used to play with it a lot 17:13:09 <FLHerne> (that was back in the ChillPP days) 17:13:14 <andythenorth> ok so you have information 17:13:22 <andythenorth> I have tried JGR, but not with daylength 17:13:53 <andythenorth> it's reported as working in so many places 17:13:58 <FLHerne> The implemented version just slows down everything that happens "per month" 17:14:16 <FLHerne> Which mean it scales intro dates, production, running costs, blah all together 17:14:57 <FLHerne> Coincidentally, most people who want slow intro dates (for 'realism') also like lower production (so 'realistic' networks can actually cope) 17:15:10 <FLHerne> So this makes people happy 17:16:00 <FLHerne> But those scaling factors /ought/ to be totally orthogonal, and if they were it wouldn't break stuff 17:16:48 <FLHerne> I believe JGR already *has* a production-scaling multiplier setting in addition to the daylength 17:18:01 <FLHerne> But the daylength still effectively scales production, so to keep the same level you have to change both settings in opposite directions 17:18:04 <FLHerne> Which is silly 17:20:21 <supermop_work> FLHerne: that seems like a case of make and merge a daylength patch, not a years-running patchpack that is aggregating numerous features for various ends.... 17:21:01 <supermop_work> in response to andy's 'why not merge jgr, people like it' 17:21:25 <supermop_work> but 17:22:12 <FLHerne> supermop_work: Well, the reason not to merge jgrpp is made up of the reasons the things in it haven't been merged individually :P 17:22:42 <supermop_work> if JGR was compelled to add a production scale settign separate from daylength, does that imply that once daylength is in, people will be asking why they can't have a setting to independently set production to weird values in trunk 17:23:37 <supermop_work> basically returns to different people want daylength to mean different things 17:24:24 <supermop_work> which leads me to believe the JGR approach is intractable 17:25:00 <FLHerne> supermop_work: Right 17:25:33 <FLHerne> The sane way to do it is how planetmaker said, with independent settings for the different things people want it to mean 17:25:58 <supermop_work> yeah 17:26:00 <FLHerne> The only problem is that that patch doesn't exist yet ;-) 17:26:33 *** jgr_ has joined #openttd 17:26:36 <supermop_work> maybe PM will make it :) 17:26:42 <supermop_work> speak of the devil 17:26:57 <jgr_> Just to clarify, the production scaling is only for pax/mail 17:27:13 <jgr_> And was mostly to deal with the quadratic scaling with town size issue 17:27:43 <supermop_work> jgr_: isn't that a problem of houses / town though? 17:28:12 <supermop_work> ie not daylength's problem to solve? 17:28:46 <jgr_> The production scaling is separate from daylength, as mentioned before I joined 17:29:25 <supermop_work> so a daylength patch would not need to include it 17:29:41 <supermop_work> lunchtime 17:29:44 <jgr_> No, it is less necessary now that there is a linear town cargo generation mode 17:30:52 * nielsm # git checkout -b NoCalendar 17:31:21 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 17:32:02 <jgr_> The particular implementation of daylength that I picked is fairly arbitarary and isn't intended as a standard of what "daylength" is or should be 17:32:20 <jgr_> arbitrary* 17:33:06 *** cHawk- has joined #openttd 17:33:11 <FLHerne> jgr_: Just to be sure, your daylength does still scale production:tick the way the old version used to? 17:33:27 <FLHerne> [*an old version, possibly] 17:34:18 <jgr_> In the version I'm using, vehicles run at the same speed, everything else is slowed by an integer factor 17:34:48 <jgr_> So the production per calendar year is unchanged 17:35:09 <jgr_> However the vehicle trips and vehicle running costs per calendar year are increased 17:36:03 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 17:36:54 <jgr_> The upshot of doing it this way is that the implementation is very simple and the NewGRF layer is not affected 17:38:33 *** cHawk has quit IRC 17:41:29 *** jgr_ has quit IRC 17:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a few issues with that, like yearly running costs being larger than purchase price 17:44:25 <nielsm> hm interesting, if I speed up MILLISECONDS_PER_TICK to 27, win32_v only runs at 33 fps instead of the 37 fps it should 17:44:34 <nielsm> something more wrong with win32_v ? 17:51:46 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:59:15 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 18:00:21 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 18:01:17 *** arikover has joined #openttd 18:05:12 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 18:13:31 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 18:18:48 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:18:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:20:04 *** tokai has joined #openttd 18:20:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 18:24:52 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:27:08 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 18:27:36 <andythenorth> did we solve it then? 18:35:26 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 18:39:53 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 19:02:57 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 19:10:07 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 19:10:35 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 19:13:07 <supermop_work> ok 19:13:10 <supermop_work> long lunch 19:17:58 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 19:27:12 <andythenorth> Blitz 19:27:21 <andythenorth> anyone with 'pro' in their nick will be 45% 19:27:28 <andythenorth> people with 'noob' are 60%+ 19:27:42 <andythenorth> anyone called 'killer', 'sniper' or 'assassin' will be 45% 19:28:58 <frosch123> is there a patch to replace the keyword with the monthly payment rate? 19:29:17 <andythenorth> there ought to be 19:29:32 <andythenorth> there's some trend of xXx nicknames, probably some alt-right fad I guess? :P 19:29:35 <andythenorth> or the Russian 19:29:51 <andythenorth> there's always a new trend to blame on the bogeymen 19:38:17 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> or the Russian <- nah, they use ||| :P 19:39:54 <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/compare/master...nielsmh:NoCalendar <-- there's my incomplete and completely untested NotDaylength patch 19:39:59 <andythenorth> :) 19:40:11 *** Flipp3rrr has joined #openttd 19:40:17 <nielsm> which doesn't actually do daylengths yet 19:40:33 <andythenorth> does it pass the automated regression suite? :P 19:40:39 <andythenorth> oh we don't have one ;) 19:41:21 <Wolf01> Hmmm, should I stop buy games? 19:41:40 <Flipp3rrr> That depends. 19:42:07 <Wolf01> I have humble monthly, I don't want to buy games I might get there 19:42:16 <Flipp3rrr> Have you actually played the games you already got for more or less than 10 hours in total? 19:42:41 <andythenorth> I only have 3 games 19:42:44 <Wolf01> Herm... yeah, all of them 19:42:51 <andythenorth> OpenTTD, patched OpenTTD...and Blitz ;P 19:43:00 <supermop_work> nielsm: +1 to seconds 19:43:16 <Flipp3rrr> andythenorth: What do you mean with "patched OpenTTD"? 19:43:41 <supermop_work> tbh one of the best parts of daylength patch was that it made it so much easier to think through timetables mentally 19:43:50 <andythenorth> OpenTTD with patches applied 19:44:13 <Flipp3rrr> andythenorth: What kind of patches? 19:44:31 <andythenorth> depends 19:44:43 <spnda> I have atleast 14 different patches 19:44:48 <andythenorth> usually one or more of these https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pulls 19:44:50 <spnda> or versions of the game 19:45:01 <andythenorth> like the town patch from Eddi|zuHause 19:45:06 <andythenorth> that ahem...needs finished 19:45:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 19:50:46 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 19:51:58 <LordAro> nielsm: i like it, i think 19:52:12 <LordAro> though changing the tick length makes me feel... uncomfortable 19:52:17 <LordAro> especially by as much as 10% 19:52:46 *** Flipp3rrr has quit IRC 19:52:53 <nielsm> it really should only affect the framerate and nothing else 19:53:14 <nielsm> though it seems it doesn't quite work as I get much too low framerate on win32_v 19:54:21 <nielsm> but yeah the basic idea is that you should be able to slow down the rate of calendar days to economy days, or even stop the passage of calendar time entirely 19:55:03 <nielsm> my thoughts about UI is to use a watch to indicate economy time, the "hours" showing the economy month and the "minutes" showing the economy day of month 19:55:18 <nielsm> (and it can double as the pause button) 19:56:10 *** Flipp3rrr has joined #openttd 19:57:06 <nielsm> and the finances window could be changed to not use year numbers but instead something like P-0, P-1, P-2 (current penta, one penta back, two penta back) 19:58:01 <nielsm> and then go over all strings and change everything to refer to minutes/pentas 19:58:22 <nielsm> (yes "penta" is from greek and "quarter" is from latin, but it sounds better) 19:58:27 <nielsm> (to me) 20:03:46 <spnda> what about not having the framerate attached to the tickspeed of the game? 20:04:02 <nielsm> that would also be good 20:04:27 <spnda> sometimes feels really weird playing a 30fps game on a 165hz monitor 20:15:38 <nielsm> all you'd get would be smoother mouse cursor at best 20:16:04 <glx> would be nice when debugging big games :) 20:18:11 <frosch123> what happened to the os-powered mouse cursor patches 20:35:22 *** Webster has joined #openttd 20:45:57 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:55:58 <andythenorth> so can we have a hotkey to cycle the company colour on a vehicle? 20:58:02 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:00:06 *** Flipp3rrr has quit IRC 21:00:14 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:16:41 *** arikover has quit IRC 21:31:32 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 21:32:31 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 21:34:05 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 22:06:35 *** Flipp3rrr has joined #openttd 22:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Hmmm, should I stop buy games? <-- only 2 of my games qualified for this year's steam awards. and one of them i won randomly somewhere, and it didn't really run on my PC 22:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the other was astroneer, which doesn't currently run either :p 22:17:47 <andythenorth> we should crowdfund eddi a PC :P 22:17:56 *** Flipp3rrr has quit IRC 22:21:03 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:31:38 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 22:46:20 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:52:29 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 23:11:12 <milek7_> argh, as if opengl didn't have enough quirks 23:11:17 <milek7_> opengl es add some more.. 23:12:47 <FLHerne> Yeah, GLES is like GL, but you get to shout "wait, I can't use THAT EITHER?!" at your monitor every half-hour 23:13:05 <FLHerne> And the drivers are all buggier 23:14:15 <milek7_> it is not even a subset of desktop gl 23:14:18 <milek7_> for some features it is not possible to write one codepath compatible with both.. 23:14:48 *** supermop_work has quit IRC 23:14:55 <LordAro> FLHerne: :D 23:16:18 <FLHerne> milek7_: I think most desktop drivers implement GL_ARB_ES3_1_COMPATIBILITY 23:16:23 <FLHerne> https://www.khronos.org/registry/OpenGL/extensions/ARB/ARB_ES3_1_compatibility.txt 23:16:56 <FLHerne> Well, it's a required feature in GL4.5, so everything supporting that has it by default 23:16:56 <LordAro> i think GL3 is a reasonable minimum at this point 23:17:18 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 23:18:03 <FLHerne> Oh, GL4.1 mandates ES2 compat, and GL4.2 has ES3.0 compat 23:18:13 <milek7_> yes, but it requires 4.5.. 23:18:22 <FLHerne> Of course, ES2 is horrible 23:19:06 <milek7_> i would like to use 4.5, but there is still many users of older versions 23:19:39 <milek7_> e.g. DSA is only in 4.5 23:20:01 <FLHerne> milek7_: It's only /required/ in 4.5, but many of the drivers for older hardware implement it as an extension 23:20:07 <milek7_> (there's earlier DSA as extension.. but it is different) 23:20:25 <FLHerne> e.g. this laptop I'm typing on only supports GL3.3, but exposes GL_ARB_ES3_2_compatibility 23:21:58 <FLHerne> Hm, 56% of 0ad players had ES3.0 compat in 2015 https://feedback.wildfiregames.com/report/opengl/feature/GL_ARB_ES3_compatibility 23:22:16 <FLHerne> I don't know what four years have done to that number 23:29:19 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 23:29:42 *** Samu has quit IRC 23:31:06 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd