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Log for #openttd on 3rd May 2020:
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02:34:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb commented on issue #44: Move nml docs to be in repo, build with jekyll/sphinx/readthedocs etc https://git.io/Je8vh
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02:51:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb opened issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue https://git.io/JfsfH
03:05:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb commented on issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue https://git.io/JfsfH
03:27:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] MinchinWeb commented on pull request #8091: Add: [Script] Native priority queue; useful e.g. for pathfinders. https://git.io/JfsJ3
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07:08:27  <andythenorth> o/
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07:21:01  <andythenorth> _dp_ 'random' strikes again
07:25:59  <_dp_> at least this random can be disabled
07:27:00  <andythenorth> I *swear* that sometimes World of Tanks Blitz gives me a bad RNG seed for days.
07:27:18  <andythenorth> but somehow I doubt it's true
07:27:54  <andythenorth> back when I made games for my job, I stopped using true random, and used various kinds of weighted randoms
07:28:19  <andythenorth> people expect random to cycle through values
07:31:15  <_dp_> yeah
07:31:37  <_dp_> but then you get ppl exploiting it
07:32:15  <andythenorth> "I only play on Wednesdays, due to the RNG seed cycle"
07:34:30  <_dp_> I've seen so much of this nonsense that my brain just filters it out as spam automatically xD
07:36:02  <_dp_> though funnily sometimes it works coz, well, pseudo randoms are pseudo :p
07:38:50  <_dp_> btw, anyone knows what rocket crashed due to bad random? heard the story somewhere but can't find it anymore
07:39:37  <_dp_> bad random generator I mean
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09:23:26  <Samu> dodododo
09:23:29  <Samu> hi
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09:41:58  <TrueBrain> hmmm .. people are renaming their package to the same name .. there is nothing in place to prevent that .. but when downloading, it will overwrite these files, making it impossible to get in a good-state :D
09:42:06  <TrueBrain> guess we need to prefix the names with the package-unique-id or something
09:44:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain opened issue #56: Different packages with same name causes OpenTTD client to mess up https://git.io/Jfsth
09:44:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on issue #56: Different packages with same name causes OpenTTD client to mess up https://git.io/Jfsth
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10:58:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue https://git.io/JfsfH
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12:02:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 commented on issue #56: Different packages with same name causes OpenTTD client to mess up https://git.io/Jfsth
12:28:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain commented on issue #56: Different packages with same name causes OpenTTD client to mess up https://git.io/Jfsth
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12:35:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain opened pull request #19: Fix #56: make sure filenames send to the client are unique https://git.io/JfsO6
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13:14:18  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i could approve it, but black is still unhappy :)
13:15:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #19: Fix #56: make sure filenames send to the client are unique https://git.io/JfsO6
13:15:42  <TrueBrain> so demanding! :P
13:16:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] frosch123 approved pull request #19: Fix #56: make sure filenames send to the client are unique https://git.io/Jfs3M
13:17:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #19: Fix #56: make sure filenames send to the client are unique https://git.io/JfsO6
13:19:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 commented on issue #18: Package with "name" and "version" of non-ASCII characters will have a filename "-.tar.gz" https://git.io/JfTEL
13:23:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.0.7 https://git.io/Jfs3p
13:24:01  <TrueBrain> I even tested it! :P
13:24:04  <TrueBrain> I love staging :D
13:39:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 commented on issue #56: Different packages with same name causes OpenTTD client to mess up https://git.io/Jfsth
13:39:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] frosch123 closed issue #56: Different packages with same name causes OpenTTD client to mess up https://git.io/Jfsth
13:40:58  <TrueBrain> owh, I opened the ticket in the wrong repo .. nice :D
13:44:00  <frosch123> that was one of the essential parts of the news post :p
13:44:24  <frosch123> you are lucky the issue was addressed, and not just closed
14:02:42  <TrueBrain> :D
14:16:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb commented on issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue https://git.io/JfsfH
14:25:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8091: Add: [Script] Native priority queue; useful e.g. for pathfinders. https://git.io/JfsZT
14:28:57  <Samu> is yexo around, or zuu, I really wanted to talk about something
14:29:22  <Samu> or someone that has access to https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects
14:41:03  <Samu> who's ingo von borstel
14:41:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue https://git.io/JfsfH
14:45:38  <Samu> ah, planetmaker, can you make priority queue available on github, I would like to create a PR on it
14:45:46  <Samu> it's from devzone
14:47:04  <Samu> https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/view/Scripts%20(AI,%20GS,%20Libraries)/job/lib-priorityqueue/lastSuccessfulBuild/ this one
14:57:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8106: Change norwegian_bokmal.txt plural fix https://git.io/JfsnZ
14:57:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8106: Change norwegian_bokmal.txt plural fix https://git.io/Jf3zV
14:57:21  <TrueBrain> can't believe nobody else closed that PR yet
14:57:28  <TrueBrain> it does remind me, we need to finish eints -> GitHub :)
14:57:41  <TrueBrain> and possibly run it on AWS .. hmm .. what a world that would be
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15:36:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh opened pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/JfscP
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15:52:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] nielsmh commented on issue #44: Move nml docs to be in repo, build with jekyll/sphinx/readthedocs etc https://git.io/Je8vh
15:52:55  <nielsm> (I might just have signed up to do that work myself.)
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16:05:48  <frosch123> i still consider it the wrong thing to do. plain html doesn't even have a search function
16:06:01  <frosch123> at least doxygen would generate some js search thingie
16:06:21  <frosch123> but then, i don't get what's wrong with the wiki
16:06:36  <frosch123> we do not even have to maintain it :p (*rudge does)
16:07:49  <nielsm> the wiki is not versioned along with NML-the-program itself
16:07:56  <andythenorth> I am +/-0 to the change
16:08:02  <andythenorth> but the PRs come in
16:08:08  <andythenorth> and then I and other people have to write the docs
16:08:20  <andythenorth> separately, working backwards
16:08:36  <andythenorth> but the wiki is quite convenient otherwise
16:08:57  <andythenorth> I prefer it when docs + code are in same PR but eh
16:09:41  <frosch123> not every coder is good a writing docs
16:09:48  <andythenorth> nor am I :P
16:09:54  <frosch123> you may detail the implementation into the website pr mess :)
16:09:58  <frosch123> *derail
16:10:29  <andythenorth> the reason I am +/-0 is that the nfo docs have to stay in the wiki
16:10:37  <andythenorth> so we'd end up split brain, which is weird
16:11:06  <nielsm> I'd argue the NFO docs should be put into the ottd repos so they can be versioned along with ottd too :)
16:11:23  <nielsm> I know there's ttdpatch, it's a static target and the docs for that can remain
16:11:29  <andythenorth> maybe it would be enough to have a convention for 'draft' in the wiki?
16:11:42  <andythenorth> and then hold PRs until there's a draft docs page?
16:14:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/JfsWk
16:17:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/JfscP
16:19:28  <andythenorth> nielsm I didn't link to web translator much in docs, I was confused about whether new translators can be registered on it
16:19:48  <andythenorth> probably me being stupid, but I couldn't find an answer
16:20:49  <andythenorth> AIUI it's done by email, and nobody knows who's responsible for checking that, but I might have misunderstood
16:24:10  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's about to change to gh auth
16:24:35  <frosch123> just hold your horses, or make them iron :)
16:26:28  <andythenorth> that was the other reason I didn't change it
16:26:50  <Wolf01> Hmmm, I have too many lego, I can't build what I want
16:27:00  <andythenorth> oof
16:27:10  <andythenorth> I'd approve that PR but checks failed :|
16:27:51  <nielsm> oh the opengfx dep for test
16:29:51  <frosch123> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8105 <- it also failed on the one that should fix it :p
16:30:34  <frosch123> or rather, they all succeeded, but gh got confused or something
16:31:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #115: Fix #112: prevent __version__.py regeneration for source package https://git.io/Jf30t
16:31:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #115: Fix #112: prevent __version__.py regeneration for source package https://git.io/Jf3ZN
16:34:38  <_dp_> do SLE_* really include "to" version? would be much more logical if they didn't
16:34:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #115: Fix #112: prevent __version__.py regeneration for source package https://git.io/Jfslk
16:35:00  <_dp_> as how I'm supposed to know what it will be once it gets merged
16:35:48  <glx> use a constant ?
16:36:07  <_dp_> well, what constant? current - 1?
16:37:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/Jfsln
16:39:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/Jfsl8
16:40:29  <glx> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/1f1345de098294a4744981d0043512569a35102a/src/saveload/station_sl.cpp#L429-L435 <-- "to" is not included
16:41:46  <_dp_> ok, so just comments are all wrong
16:41:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8105: Fix: OpenGFX download link did no longer work. https://git.io/Jfslz
16:41:51  <_dp_> "to     Last savegame version that has the empty space."
16:43:10  <_dp_> though, actually, wouldn't that work even it was included?
16:43:59  <glx> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/ea4ea628163c735db4c4714966c9bc1c560e0f61#diff-2e3543c333838e2f3b92cbf76235777b
16:44:03  <_dp_> if (_sl_version < sld->version_from || _sl_version >= sld->version_to) return false;
16:44:05  <_dp_> ok, it's not
16:44:13  <glx> it was included, but now it's not
16:44:48  <glx> was changed for the SLV_ enum
16:45:05  <_dp_> yeah, that explains wrong comments
16:45:40  <glx> comments are always forgotten :)
16:46:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 merged pull request #8105: Fix: OpenGFX download link did no longer work. https://git.io/Jf3kP
16:48:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/JfscP
16:56:58  <nielsm> did the CI get stuck? :(
16:57:57  <glx> no the run is finished
16:58:46  <glx> probably communication issue between azure and github
16:59:09  <frosch123> it was the same with the other pr
16:59:16  <frosch123> after approval it said "all checks passed"
16:59:24  <LordAro> someone should hurry up and switch the CI over to Actions :)
16:59:34  <glx> oh it's because the checks are done in 2 passes
17:00:34  <glx> well they are split in "checks" section
17:01:26  <LordAro> well azure itself certainly seems to think everything's working fine
17:01:31  <LordAro> so must be communication issue
17:02:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/Jfs8m
17:04:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/Jfs8a
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18:02:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/JfsB7
18:03:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth approved pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/JfsBF
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19:09:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8093: Regular server desynchronisations from clients https://git.io/JfkmV
19:15:45  <_dp_> another indication of some company id shenanigans happening
19:19:10  <Samu> are you running a gs in that game?
19:19:42  <glx> _dp_: but modified client and server so...
19:20:00  <_dp_> funnily enough of all the things goin on there GS is not involved
19:21:33  <_dp_> glx, yeah, but I've no idea how any of the modifications could cause that
19:21:44  <_dp_> also unmodified is known to get into that state as well
19:22:48  <glx> there's at least #8103, but maybe some other areas can cause desyncs
19:23:00  <glx> and desyncs are always hard to track
19:25:02  <_dp_> glx, but can #8103 cause spectator to desync?
19:26:17  <_dp_> I'll try to get command log if this keeps happening
19:26:33  <glx> I think it only affects de client causing the free wagon reordering
19:27:07  <glx> but if that happens on the server all clients are ckicked
19:27:23  <glx> (non dedicated server of course)
19:27:45  <_dp_> me too, so should be the other cause
19:28:48  <Samu> i remember there was a change in squirrel api related to retrieving a company id causing a crash
19:29:10  <glx> crash are easy :)
19:29:49  <Samu> but the fix made some changes in how it handles companies
19:30:02  <_dp_> glx, not every crash is easy :p
19:30:19  <glx> true, but way easier to trace
19:30:24  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I wrote an nml lexer in nodejs to see what performance would be like without Python overhead
19:30:24  <Samu> probably not related to this, but...
19:30:30  <FLHerne> It's about 30x faster
19:30:53  <_dp_> glx, not when it crashes in completely unrelated place due to some memory corruption
19:30:56  <FLHerne> Of course, rewriting all of nml in JS might take a little while
19:31:29  <LordAro> FLHerne: i can't imagine that's purely python overhead
19:31:43  <LordAro> there must be inefficiencies in nml's implementation that can be fixed
19:31:50  <LordAro> not 30x
19:31:51  <LordAro> no way
19:32:19  <FLHerne> LordAro: The lexer is pretty much just using PLY
19:32:31  <_dp_> js is optimized af
19:32:43  <FLHerne> Doing the same thing repeatedly, in tight loops, on strings, is about CPython's worst possible case
19:32:56  <FLHerne> And one where JS's JIT *really* helps
19:33:08  <_dp_> js easily can 30x vs python
19:33:28  <FLHerne> PyPy is about 5x faster than CPython there
19:33:55  <FLHerne> So I guess JS being ~6x faster than PyPy is the relevant number for performance-obsessed people
19:34:26  <FLHerne> I did look at rewriting just the lexer using CFFI
19:35:10  <FLHerne> But calling back into Python to create a couple of objects for every token hurts a lot
19:35:22  <FLHerne> Well, more than a couple
19:38:47  <andythenorth> I have node :P
19:38:51  <andythenorth> I never writing anything in it
19:38:56  <andythenorth> writing / write /s
19:39:07  <andythenorth> but I have it for web stack deps
19:39:26  <andythenorth> I swore I'd never write javascript again many times :(
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19:41:52  * LordAro dislikes JS as well
19:41:59  <andythenorth> FLHerne subprocess to a node lexer?
19:42:10  <LordAro> /kick andythenorth
19:42:21  <andythenorth> the problem is what tree would it produce?
19:42:36  <FLHerne> Lexer is just a stream, so not too bad
19:42:54  <andythenorth> the only thing I use node for is subprocess for css compiles :P
19:42:59  <FLHerne> Hm, that might be easier than the approach I was trying
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19:43:34  <FLHerne> Should be in C rather than JS, so LordAro doesn't kick me
19:43:36  <LordAro> i would much rather time was spent optimising the existing python, rather than rewriting it in a brand new language
19:44:23  <_dp_> rust ftw :p
19:44:58  <LordAro> nml just isn't well tested enough to reliably rewrite it in another language
19:46:36  <andythenorth> it only has to produce the same results from the same input
19:46:39  <andythenorth> checksum :P
19:46:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's not really practical
19:47:26  <LordAro> testing that on a significant enough range of inputs is nearly impossible
19:47:39  <FLHerne> Well, testing *that* would be easy
19:47:52  * LordAro waves https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ in peoples faces
19:47:59  <FLHerne> Grab all the nml source on the internets and see if you get the same result
19:48:49  <FLHerne> The problem is that you can get the same semantic result from different grf output, and are guaranteed to without spending ages painstakingly duplicating all of NML's design mistakes
19:48:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8103: Fix #8093: Build+Refit changed game-state in command test run, and thus caused desyncs https://git.io/JfsuS
19:48:59  <FLHerne> Which would be stupid :P
19:50:36  <andythenorth> don't checksum the exact bytes
19:50:44  <andythenorth> decompile both grfs with grfcodec
19:50:59  * andythenorth can't remember if grfcodec always imposes same order regardless of source grf
19:51:12  <_dp_> LordAro, booooring :p
19:51:20  <andythenorth> ultimately there's a set of branched actions, they're either the same, or they're not
19:51:43  <andythenorth> I am not 100% serious
19:51:47  <andythenorth> maybe 50%
19:52:49  * _dp_ already wants to rewrite citymania before even finishing the previous attempt
19:55:03  <milek7> LordAro: it criticises netscape
19:55:08  <milek7> but firefox was success, after all?
19:55:55  <LordAro> after about 15 years of total IE dominance
19:56:05  <LordAro> and now it's fading into obscurity again
19:56:35  <milek7> ~30% market share, obscurity?
19:57:06  <milek7> ouch, no
19:57:07  <LordAro> oh, i was led to believe it was lower
19:57:28  <milek7> apparently I'm stuck in 2010
19:58:26  <milek7> huh, globally under 5%
19:58:45  <LordAro> that's more inline with what i thought
20:00:21  <andythenorth> FLHerne do we know what % of a compile is spent in the lexer?
20:01:04  <milek7> apparently globally it was highest at 30% in 2009
20:01:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on pull request #115: Fix #112: prevent __version__.py regeneration for source package https://git.io/Jfszv
20:01:23  <milek7> but 56% in poland
20:10:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 updated pull request #8103: Fix #8093: Build+Refit changed game-state in command test run, and thus caused desyncs https://git.io/JfOjg
20:15:27  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's about 50%
20:16:07  <FLHerne> Maybe a bit less
20:17:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: NML's NFO output is nothing like a direct mapping of the input
20:18:56  <andythenorth> my thinking was that ultimately, the order of bytes etc is irrelevant
20:19:02  <andythenorth> if the graph of actions comes out the same
20:20:03  <andythenorth> but I don't know if we have a tool that will graph the actions
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20:24:14  <andythenorth> FLHerne is this a serious investigation of node, or just amusement? :)
20:26:25  <frosch123> imagine firs would need python, chameleon, nml, node.js and grfcodec to build :)
20:26:38  <frosch123> can you add wasm somehow?
20:26:43  <Thedarkb-Desktop> Hi, I'm having an issue with my server.
20:26:43  <frosch123> or haskell?
20:27:15  <Thedarkb-Desktop> I've had luck compiling my own SDL stuff for WASM with Emscripten actually.
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20:27:37  <Thedarkb-Desktop> I'm getting dbg: [net] [udp] sendto([master.openttd.org]:3978 (IPv6)) failed with: 101
20:27:46  <Thedarkb-Desktop> And I'm running 1.10.1
20:28:00  <Thedarkb-Desktop> Server's been up for years, I'm not sure why it's gone down.
20:28:08  <Thedarkb-Desktop> Well, why it's stopped pinging master.
20:28:57  <Thedarkb-Desktop> Nevermind, it fixed itself.
20:29:07  <Thedarkb-Desktop> I just restarted it twice...
20:36:49  <Thedarkb-Desktop> No, wait, still not showing up on the master list.
20:37:08  <Thedarkb-Desktop> Nevermind, it just came up there.
20:37:14  <Thedarkb-Desktop> I think my connection is unstable.
20:40:30  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #115: Fix #112: prevent __version__.py regeneration for source package https://git.io/Jfsgr
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20:46:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not sure, tbh
20:46:56  <FLHerne> I do share LordAro's concerns about reinventing the wheel
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20:52:18  <andythenorth> frosch123 it would all run in a virtual machine, in wasm, in your browser
20:55:55  <FLHerne> I think you could run nml in Python in wasm right now
20:56:00  <FLHerne> If you really wanted to
20:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly convinced someone is already running python in wasm in some production system somewhere
21:05:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8103: Fix #8093: Build+Refit changed game-state in command test run, and thus caused desyncs https://git.io/Jfsgh
21:16:47  <_dp_> can #7912 be merged already? I'm missing it so much...
21:18:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 merged pull request #8103: Fix #8093: Build+Refit changed game-state in command test run, and thus caused desyncs https://git.io/JfOjg
21:18:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed issue #8093: Regular server desynchronisations from clients https://git.io/JfkmV
21:21:23  <frosch123> i think town names in nml are completely broken :)
21:21:36  <frosch123> night
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23:12:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] duckfullstop commented on issue #8093: Regular server desynchronisations from clients https://git.io/JfkmV
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23:45:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/JfsoY
23:46:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8107: Update: Clarify some contribution guidelines https://git.io/JfscP
23:48:13  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8093: Regular server desynchronisations from clients https://git.io/JfkmV
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