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Log for #openttd on 18th May 2020:
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00:11:15  <supermop_Home_> somehow i never have the DVTs in iron horse
00:20:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] CottonTheButton opened issue #8158: Game crashes on startup https://git.io/JfEsP
00:27:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8158: Game crashes on startup https://git.io/JfEsP
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00:39:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8158: Game crashes on startup https://git.io/JfEsP
00:39:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8158: Game crashes on startup https://git.io/JfEsP
01:56:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8157: Fix: Incorrect save/load array size of Town::cargo_accepted https://git.io/JfEnv
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05:40:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] Andrew350 opened issue #147: Metric speed values are still slightly off https://git.io/JfEBi
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06:21:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/JfE0c
07:25:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] Eddi-z commented on issue #147: Metric speed values are still slightly off https://git.io/JfEBi
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08:05:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8156: Fix #8155: Roadtype speed limit in toolbar dropdown in scenario editor was doubled. https://git.io/JfE2o
08:05:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8151: Fix: Desync after house replacement https://git.io/JfRPm
08:06:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #8135: Prepare for 1.10.2 release https://git.io/JfWH4
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08:29:13  <_dp_> is there any convenient way to advance the save for 1 tick?
08:29:56  <Eddi|zuHause> sending unpause/pause from the console?
08:30:52  <LordAro> _dp_: some minor modifications to the debug desync code might do well enough
08:31:00  <LordAro> desync debug*
08:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause> slightly more elaborate or future proof would be to make ctrl+click on the pause button advance in single steps or something
08:32:18  <_dp_> just console command will be enough
08:32:44  <_dp_> though atm I don't even see a way to pause on load
08:32:47  <Eddi|zuHause> adding a console command is pretty easy
08:33:12  <Eddi|zuHause> pause on load you can hack into afterload
08:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but that would also be a candidate for an actual feature
08:36:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (or just make the savegame while paused)
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08:58:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on issue #139: Running regression tests litters examples with empty .nmlcache directories https://git.io/Jflcq
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08:59:50  <Samu> hi
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09:22:51  <_dp_> ok, looks like it's already somewhat late to save when server receives the desync
09:23:09  <_dp_> server was 80 ticks ahead so even after advancing the game diff is still massive :(
09:23:31  <_dp_> I may have found the desync anyway
09:23:37  <_dp_> *but
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09:56:02  <Samu> new desyncs?
09:56:10  <Samu> you're becoming an expert!
09:56:22  <_dp_> rofl
11:26:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] Eddi-z updated pull request #21: Eddi-nml branch for ActionC support https://git.io/fhpED
11:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that was probably both overdue and pointless...
11:42:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro updated pull request #8135: Prepare for 1.10.2 release https://git.io/JfW9f
11:55:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #70: Reduce boilerplate for creating BinOps https://git.io/Jey9d
12:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so in nml "make regression", can i select a single test to run instead of all of them?
12:02:40  <_dp_> LordAro, in case you want to release 1.10.2 smth needs to be done with Town::accepted_cargo and subsides imo
12:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: why do you think it's that urgent?
12:03:51  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, because it desyncs
12:03:59  <_dp_> savegame stuff is irrelevant there
12:04:13  <LordAro> _dp_: you're not wrong
12:04:24  <LordAro> i was just making sure i had all the backported stuff in the PR
12:04:34  <LordAro> though we do need to do a release sooner rather than later
12:04:53  <LordAro> fewer bugs in a new release is better than all the bugs in an old release
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12:05:22  <_dp_> it should be a relatively easy fix if we're ok breaking subsidies a bit :)
12:05:58  <_dp_> or should I say in a different way xD
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12:06:58  <_dp_> it's amazing how that all works actually
12:07:05  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: `make -C regression 001_action8`
12:07:23  <FLHerne> (or cd regression; make 001_action8`
12:07:29  <FLHerne> )
12:07:39  <_dp_> it maintains acceptance matrix updating it on every relevant operation (except where bugged)
12:07:47  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: alright, seems to work
12:08:19  <_dp_> recalculates those matrices for each town each month in a very ineffecient way (scanning every tile 9 times doing cb calls)
12:08:26  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Why is it useful? Even on my painfully-slow laptop the tests only take 30s or so
12:08:43  <_dp_> and then subside just have 1/16 chance to use those matrices for 2 towns each month xD
12:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i added some debug output and want to reduce the scope
12:09:05  <LordAro> _dp_: i'm not sure that's something that can be backported
12:09:15  <FLHerne> ok
12:09:25  <LordAro> not that i disagree that the current implementation is silly
12:09:26  <_dp_> LordAro, it can be backported just fine as long as it stays in a savegame
12:09:49  <_dp_> but will be just unused
12:09:54  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: I think your patch is a bit silly, btw :p
12:10:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the ActionC?
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12:10:29  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's an essential part of compiling CETS
12:10:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody else seems to be able to think of a use for it...
12:11:35  <FLHerne> NML already has comments, adding a weird 'comment()' block that only makes sense for your specific usecase seems wrong
12:12:42  <FLHerne> And having to patch NML's output together after the fact is a bug that should be fixed, not a usecase to encourage :-/
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12:13:55  <Eddi|zuHause> well... someone once thought that including action C in NFO was a good idea
12:13:57  <_dp_> LordAro, I kind of started on pr already btw, was just mostly reading code till now
12:14:05  <_dp_> but transitioning to writing it atm :)
12:15:23  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Where does CETS live now? Devzone doesn't show any commits for a while
12:15:47  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you call "live" :p
12:16:21  <FLHerne> Well, where do I get a current version of the source, so I can crash my laptop with it?
12:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be all commits on devzone
12:16:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8157: Fix: Incorrect save/load array size of Town::cargo_accepted https://git.io/JfEMp
12:19:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8157: Fix: Incorrect save/load array size of Town::cargo_accepted https://git.io/JfEDL
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12:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> there was supposed to be a small change to the source to turn it back into single-file mode, but i can't find it
12:38:50  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, I was trying to figure out how to do that
12:39:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i was hoping to find it in r734
12:39:47  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's not as obvious as i would have hoped
12:49:28  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Can I just revert 734 altogether?
12:49:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that'll work
12:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> in scripts/files.py there's vehicle_file, which is probably the right place
12:53:55  <FLHerne> [13:52][9757][flh ~/projects/cets/]$ hg checkout default                                                                     (hg)-[default|merging]-
12:53:56  <FLHerne> abort: outstanding merge conflicts
12:54:02  <FLHerne> [13:53][9758][flh ~/projects/cets/]$ hg merge --abort                                                                        (hg)-[default|merging]-
12:54:04  <FLHerne> abort: no merge in progress
12:54:17  <FLHerne> And they say git is awkward and counterintuitive
12:56:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i've no clue how you handle conflicts from command line
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12:59:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8157: Fix: Incorrect save/load array size of Town::cargo_accepted https://git.io/JfES2
13:01:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
13:04:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/JfES1
13:07:34  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: as far as i can recover, relevant revisions are r730 through r736 and r839
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13:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know if anything else depends on those
13:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i still doubt that reverting them will do any good
13:14:55  <FLHerne> Yeah, I still get conflicts
13:15:08  <FLHerne> Some of which are non-obvious how to revert
13:17:08  <FLHerne> tbh, reverse-engineering CETS' build system just to replicate an nml bug is more work than I feel like doing just now :-/
13:17:32  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: let me stirr around for a bit, and i get back to you
13:18:03  <FLHerne> Thanks
13:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: but from what i remember, it was yacc blowing up because of python's string handling
13:18:16  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how much nml can do there
13:18:59  <FLHerne> I've made a couple of attempts at implementing bits of the parser in C
13:19:11  <FLHerne> They didn't work terribly well, though
13:22:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #7270: Introduce CMake (and removing all other project-related code) https://git.io/fhbqc
13:31:39  <_dp_> what's the canonical way to write constants to a savegame?
13:32:19  <_dp_> SLEG_VAR?
13:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting a weird "unexpected token" error from nmlc that i'm not sure where it's coming from
13:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: why would you need constants in a savegame, if they're constant?
13:37:58  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, to avoid bumping the savegame version
13:38:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not following...
13:38:53  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, nvm, I though of a way already
13:39:00  <LordAro> _dp_: if we need to bump the savegame, we will
13:39:09  <LordAro> it just makes things complicated if we do it in a release branch
13:39:18  <_dp_> nah, it's just a code style problem
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13:44:57  <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting a weird "unexpected token" error from nmlc that i'm not sure where it's coming from <-- maybe show the code and the error message
13:47:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on issue #139: Running regression tests litters examples with empty .nmlcache directories https://git.io/Jflcq
13:48:59  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: probably comes from my rebase earlier
13:51:24  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: p_error in parser.py
13:51:51  <FLHerne> It means the parser reached a token that doesn't make sense in its current state
13:52:12  <FLHerne> i.e. your nml code has a syntax error, or the parser's broken
13:52:52  <FLHerne> It should tell you what the unexpected token is, and where
13:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yay, paste.openttdcoop.org -> " Your IP address is listed as a malicious IP. "
13:53:21  <glx> paste is long time broken
13:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the first time i hear of that
13:54:01  <glx> it's like that for months
13:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: so, try https://pastebin.com/eBrKq6us ... it'll still try to go nml->nfo->grf (which might fail), but now everything is in one single nml run
13:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and i disabled all the "comment" stuff so should work with stock nml
13:58:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on issue #139: Running regression tests litters examples with empty .nmlcache directories https://git.io/Jflcq
14:01:50  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: also, src/table/CETS_tracking_table.tsv might need restoring to pre-r724 for maximum effect
14:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure if it's that easy)
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14:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: the file you'll be looking at would be src/cets.onml
14:18:54  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Thanks, that's working
14:21:17  <supermop_Home_> hi all, I've not yet used the gh for anything.... if i want to propose/ suggest / submit an improved sprite for opengfx - do i do that there as an issue?
14:21:48  <LordAro> supermop_Home_: a PR would be preferred, but an issue would work as well
14:22:10  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Interesting that the file isn't any *bigger* than the FIRS/Horse ones, which take a long-ish but somewhat reasonable time
14:22:56  <supermop_Home_> ok. i thought a pr was specifically for submitting some code
14:23:14  <LordAro> everything is code
14:23:26  <LordAro> as far as the repo is concerned
14:23:27  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home_: a PR is specifically for changing any file
14:23:43  <Eddi|zuHause> code, sprite, docs, doesn't matter
14:24:11  <supermop_Home_> i mean i guess a png is just a bunch of bits... would i submit a new sprite sheet with my sprite on it, or just my sprite?
14:24:30  <LordAro> supermop_Home_: imagine you're making a change to one of your own GRFs
14:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home_: the whole file would probably be easier
14:25:13  <supermop_Home_> LordAro I've never really touched a base set before so idk if a file for just that one item (station roof) would be desirable
14:25:29  <LordAro> OGFX isn't exactly consistent
14:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i beleve r724 was specifically for reducing the file size to something that can be managed
14:27:00  <glx> hmm adding stations to nml seems complicated, they have stuff in action 0 when other features use action 2
14:27:01  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: This is with your patch
14:27:30  <FLHerne> cets.onml is 11MB, which is the same as FIRS
14:27:33  <LordAro> glx: that's basically what made Yexo quit last time :p
14:27:35  <LordAro> iirc
14:27:37  <FLHerne> But it takes about 8x longer to parse
14:27:48  <LordAro> (also the new job, and life etc)
14:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: yes, and reverting r724 would add some 200 vehicles on top
14:29:10  <FLHerne> Ok
14:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm currently trying to see how easy it would be to reinstate those to the table, there might have been some new columns in the meantime
14:30:10  <FLHerne> But my point is that it's not purely the filesize that's the issue
14:30:28  <FLHerne> nmlc is alright with 11MB source files, just not *this* 11MB source file
14:31:04  <FLHerne> (I haven't the faintest idea why yet)
14:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
14:33:52  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #8159: Make subsidies scan for town cargo instead of wasting resources and risking desyncs by maintaining cargo caches https://git.io/JfE5M
14:36:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on issue #139: Running regression tests litters examples with empty .nmlcache directories https://git.io/Jflcq
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14:40:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne closed pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums https://git.io/JfRax
14:40:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #143: Add: Script to format the changelog for TT-Forums https://git.io/JfEdq
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14:45:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on issue #147: Metric speed values are still slightly off https://git.io/JfEBi
14:45:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] matthijskooijman commented on issue #139: Running regression tests litters examples with empty .nmlcache directories https://git.io/Jflcq
14:47:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8159: Make subsidies scan for town cargo instead of wasting resources and risking desyncs by maintaining cargo caches https://git.io/JfEdz
14:48:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8159: Make subsidies scan for town cargo instead of wasting resources and risking desyncs by maintaining cargo caches https://git.io/JfE5M
14:49:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8159: Make subsidies scan for town cargo instead of wasting resources and risking desyncs by maintaining cargo caches https://git.io/JfE5M
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14:58:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i need to do some sanity checks on whatever oberhümer has been doing to this table over the last years
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15:21:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] supermop opened issue #44: Open GFX Base Maglev Roofs  https://git.io/JfEba
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15:22:11  <supermop_Home> gah
15:22:12  <supermop_Home> ok
15:22:19  <supermop_Home> will i raised an issue
15:22:24  <supermop_Home> well
15:23:24  <supermop_Home> let me know if i did it wrong
15:29:25  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Some before/after screenshots might be useful?
15:32:24  <supermop_Home> hmm i'm not sure how to get the sprite in game
15:33:00  <supermop_Home> i guess i could just photoshop it
15:41:12  <FLHerne> Eh, nevermind then
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15:42:36  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Ideally, upload a diff of the spritesheet you've modified
15:42:44  <FLHerne> Or just the entire modified one
15:45:40  <supermop_Home> in this case its the infra08 file - so upload the whole png with these sprites changes right?
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15:50:04  <FLHerne> Yes
15:50:32  <FLHerne> Otherwise anyone who wants to try it out has to manually copy your changes back into the right place, which is kind of a pain
15:53:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #8160: Fix: Trees disappear completely after a few years when they're not allowed to spread https://git.io/JfEAk
15:53:57  <_dp_> ez way to plant 20mil trees ;)
15:55:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #8160: Fix: Trees disappear completely after a few years when they're not allowed to spread https://git.io/JfEAq
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15:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> they changed something in google docs, i can't seem to copy-paste from one table to the other anymore
15:57:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8160: Fix: Trees disappear completely after a few years when they're not allowed to spread https://git.io/JfEAk
15:57:54  <LordAro> i wish GH was more consistent in automatically dismissing reviews
15:58:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #8160: Fix: Trees disappear completely after a few years when they're not allowed to spread https://git.io/JfEAq
16:01:05  <glx> yeah a push dismiss approve, but not requested changes
16:01:10  <supermop_Home> FLHerne do i need to name my modified file the same as the original?
16:01:46  <LordAro> supermop_Home: if you're making a PR, yes
16:01:56  <LordAro> because otherwise the actual source code needs changes
16:02:03  <LordAro> just like making a GRF
16:03:32  <supermop_Home> ugh how do i now show the entire image when attaching it to my issue
16:04:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8160: Fix: Trees disappear completely after a few years when they're not allowed to spread https://git.io/JfEAk
16:05:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8160: Fix: Trees disappear completely after a few years when they're not allowed to spread https://git.io/JfEAK
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16:14:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] supermop commented on issue #44: Open GFX Base Maglev Roofs  https://git.io/JfEba
16:14:57  <_dp_> oh, another default industry adjustment grf conflict :p  https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=87053
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16:39:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8159: Make subsidies scan for town cargo instead of wasting resources and risking desyncs by maintaining cargo caches https://git.io/JfEpt
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16:58:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #8159: Make subsidies scan for town cargo instead of wasting resources and risking desyncs by maintaining cargo caches https://git.io/JfE5M
17:26:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8160: Fix: Trees disappear completely after a few years when they're not allowed to spread https://git.io/JfEjL
17:45:53  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Jfuek
17:45:53  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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17:57:08  <andythenorth> random things
17:57:34  <andythenorth> this is a model of a truck that used to live near my school https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B-T-MODELS-BASE-TOYS-1-76-Scale-OO-Gauge-Leyland-Roadtrain-Oxford-JCB-3CX/164194909470
18:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's not 1:87
18:01:48  <andythenorth> zoom out a bit
18:01:50  <andythenorth> it might be :P
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18:17:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] Andrew350 commented on issue #44: Open GFX Base Maglev Roofs  https://git.io/JfEba
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18:32:24  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] supermop commented on issue #44: Open GFX Base Maglev Roofs  https://git.io/JfEba
18:32:34  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: Hm, looking at your sprites I think we have different ideas of how that roof works :p
18:33:06  <FLHerne> supermop_Home: I've always pictured it as a series of arches perpendicular to the track
18:33:22  <FLHerne> And the longitudinal "beams" being catenaries in tension hanging between them
18:33:43  <FLHerne> (the ones that are blue in the original sprite)
18:34:15  <FLHerne> I think the original sprite makes structural sense that way, although the arches could be a bit thicker
18:34:28  <supermop_Home> there are a few structural issues with how it was drawn originally,
18:35:01  <supermop_Home> and it was ambiguous whether it was meant to be a tensile structure or a spaceframe
18:35:12  <FLHerne> Hm. To be clearer:
18:35:27  <supermop_Home> but it was much too vacuous to work as either
18:35:27  <FLHerne>  - Cross-wise arches originating from pillars, in compression
18:35:42  <FLHerne>  - Longitudinal catenaries between those arches, in tension
18:36:04  <FLHerne> Arch-shaped stringers, crosswise, not really sure :p
18:36:14  <FLHerne> But hanging on the catenaries
18:36:55  <FLHerne> Whereas tbh I don't really see how your new one works, it's a bit thin and a very weird shape for a space-frame
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18:37:24  <supermop_Home> FLHerne the 'glass' part doesn't really work in that tensile version
18:38:10  <supermop_Home> and the parts where it droops down at the side are also kinda odd
18:38:55  <supermop_Home> thin it is but i was looking for the most expedient way to make the shape of the original sprite look more substantial
18:40:16  <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a6KyppN_460s.jpg andythenorth: you could do this in chemtown grf
18:40:23  <supermop_Home> i think the side 'droops' should be inverted, but that's a bigger change
18:41:30  <supermop_Home> the monorail roof makes a lot more sense as a catenary to me
18:43:40  <supermop_Home> i think it may make sense or look better to subdivide the glazed panels a bit more too
18:44:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] Andrew350 commented on issue #44: Open GFX Base Maglev Roofs  https://git.io/JfEba
18:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: anything after "ethanol" really doesn't sound like anything you'd want in your body in meaningful quantities
18:52:13  <Wolf01> At least not "pure"
19:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well, my basic school cemistry taught me  "don't ingest any -ol besides ethanol" and "anything containing the word 'benzene' is probably higly cancerous"
19:01:35  <Wolf01> Probably if you mix them they get different names
19:02:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i still haven't learned the "new" print syntax in python3
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19:13:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: chemistry sorts elements into two categories: "cancerous" and "probably cancerous"
19:14:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it was different back then...
19:14:29  <Eddi|zuHause> when "cancerous" actually meant something
19:16:54  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: which new syntax? the one added 15 years ago with "{}".format(foo), or the one added 4 years ago with f"{foo}"?
19:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the one where "print foo" became "print(foo)"
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19:24:11  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: The "new syntax" isn't new syntax, it's just an ordinary function call
19:24:40  <FLHerne> It's just that the weird old syntax doesn't exist anymore
19:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is precisely "new syntax"
19:25:50  <FLHerne> There's no syntax that wasn't already there :p
19:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they changed a completely different syntax for a new purpose. that is new syntax
19:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> if you compare the parser output, it's completely different, ergo new.
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19:36:17  <andythenorth> Wolf01 I might include dihydrogen monoxide
19:36:28  <andythenorth> it's fatal if ingested in large quantities
19:36:34  <andythenorth> but desert towns could require it
19:36:39  <frosch123> it's also fatal when pure
19:37:33  <nielsm> it plays a core part in nuclear power plants
19:39:01  <andythenorth> the solid form can be incredibly dangerous
19:39:32  <andythenorth> and the gas
19:40:21  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: The new print() is quite literally just a function call, the syntax for that is the same and used for the same purpose
19:40:48  <FLHerne> The new `print()` builtin is a semantic change, not a syntactic one
19:41:13  <nielsm> more than 300,000 deaths a year are caused by dihydrogen monoxide induced asphyxiation
19:41:53  <frosch123> eddi is basically made of it
19:43:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i like living on the edge
19:45:32  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: why are you trying to convince me that changing "print" from being a statement to being a function is not a syntax change?
19:46:02  <FLHerne> It's a syntax change, but it's not new syntax :p
19:46:25  <FLHerne> No-one will ever have an excuse to call me not-pedantic...
19:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> "change" implies "old" turned into "new".
19:48:18  <FLHerne> It's only a removal of the old syntax, there's nothing new
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19:49:19  <FLHerne> You can trivially implement the `print()` function, and call it in the same way with the same syntax, in any version of Python back to the very start
19:50:16  <Eddi|zuHause> why would anyone do that? you can literally use the new syntax and it happens to work on the old syntax
19:51:08  <Eddi|zuHause> because () around an expression is a no-op
19:51:36  <FLHerne> The new builtin takes a bunch of optional arguments for various things
19:52:09  <FLHerne> That the old syntax either couldn't represent, or used very strange extra syntax for
19:54:21  <Eddi|zuHause> none of that, however, changes my habit of writing "print foo" and then wondering why it doesn't work
19:54:46  <andythenorth> took me a while
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20:09:12  <supermop_Home> hows it going andythenorth
20:10:11  <andythenorth> not bad
20:13:02  <supermop_Home> yay
20:13:28  <supermop_Home> well i dropped /  cracked my phone
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20:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause> get a dumbphone, never worry about dropping or cracking
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21:13:01  <Samu> wow, a PR about trees
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21:27:40  <Samu>  cyas goodnight
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22:17:55  <spnda> Hey guys, anyone know where sprite 681 is used?
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22:20:50  <FLHerne> spnda: Be aware the answer might be "nowhere", a few sprites in the baseset aren't
22:21:38  <spnda> yeah i think thats whats happening
22:22:35  <FLHerne> spnda: Hm, 681 is a Ç ?
22:22:44  <FLHerne> Or am I looking in the wrong file?
22:22:55  <spnda> 681 is a trash can
22:23:41  <spnda> I don't see it referenced in sprites.h, so it might be just completely unused
22:25:05  <FLHerne> In what file is 681 a trash can?
22:26:12  <spnda> if you look it up in the sprite aligner tool inside openttd and go to sprite 681, thats what comes up
22:26:16  <FLHerne> Searching OpenGFX source I get a large-font 'Ç' and a Toyland RV, neither of which are that
22:26:52  <spnda> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442748131898032138/712068699623784530/unknown.png
22:27:24  <FLHerne> Ok, I see it in-game, perhaps I'm searching wrong
22:29:43  <FLHerne> Can't think of ever seeing that anywhere
22:31:41  <FLHerne> I wondered if it might be in the scenario editor, that has a few different UI elements
22:31:51  <FLHerne> But I can't see it there either
22:44:09  <supermop_Home> it's a cute trash can
22:47:28  <orudge> So, pleasingly, desktop OpenTTD cross-compiles to ARM64 then runs absolutely fine on an ARM64 Windows 10 device (well, QEMU'd ARM64 device at present). And performance of OpenTTD itself is surprisingly decent in QEMU, admittedly on a 64x64 map!
22:47:35  <orudge> Trying it out on a Raspberry Pi 4 might be more fun though
22:48:23  <TrueBrain> do I dare to ask the big question.... why?!
22:48:30  <orudge> Whyever not :D
22:48:32  <TrueBrain> you bored because of the corona shit? :D
22:48:43  <orudge> I've also been resuccitating the OS/2 port with CMake support...
22:48:54  <TrueBrain> you crazy :P
22:49:00  <TrueBrain> but I like crazy :D
22:49:34  <TrueBrain> off to bed now :) Sleep well all
22:50:12  <orudge> To be fair, the ARM64 Windows port was just a case of installing packages with vcpkg, adding a new target in the VC project, and fixing one bug in a .cpp file. I'll submit a pull request once the cmake changes are in.
22:50:16  <orudge> Heh
22:50:18  <orudge> Night night
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23:01:26  <FLHerne> orudge: Can you make it run on MacOS 7? :D
23:01:56  <FLHerne> I got it to run on my Powerbook with Linux installed, but the nubus-pmac kernel fork seems dead for years now
23:03:22  <FLHerne> Perhaps I should try and get that thing working again
23:03:39  <FLHerne> I think the power supply died
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23:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> <spnda> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442748131898032138/712068699623784530/unknown.png <-- that's probably some kind of GUI button
23:25:54  <Speeder__> see if I got it right: coordinate 0, 0 IS present ingame, but represents a vertex, not a tile?
23:26:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder__: that depends
23:26:23  <Speeder__> depends on what?
23:27:08  <Eddi|zuHause> on whether you view vertexes (like the terraform tool) or tiles (like the bulldozer), every tile is represented by its upper (north) corner
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23:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> also, some tiles along the map border might be "void" tiles that aren't visually on the map, but hidden markers of the border (depends on whether you have water borders or freeform borders)
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23:29:13  <Speeder__> alright... so, I have  a 2048x2048 map
23:29:31  <Speeder__> but in-game using the ? tool, the smallest coordinate is 1x1, and biggest is 2046x2046
23:30:03  <glx> void tiles all around the map used as safety markers IIRC
23:30:33  <Speeder__> but when I export a heightmap of a map that is just a flat square except I modified the outermost tiles (for example making them 1 level lower or higher), the exported heightmap has the border being 2 tiles thick on the "south" side, and 3 tiles thick on the "north" side
23:32:03  <Speeder__> inded, I can't use ? tool on 0x0
23:32:16  <Speeder__> but if I am using the terraform tool, I can make a slope on the first tile
23:32:26  <Speeder__> so I assume the coordinate of 0x0 IS present
23:32:35  <glx> freeform edges
23:32:39  <Speeder__> thus 0x0 exists, you just can't interact with it, except with vertex manipulation tools
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23:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes-ish. if you terraform the 1x1 vertex, it modifies the slope on all adjacent tiles (1,1),(1,0),(0,1) and (0,0)
23:47:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the reasons why there needs to be a row of void tiles: so the terraform tool doesn't crash (or do weird things) when you modify the border of the map
23:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have freeform borders on, then you have 2046 tiles or 2047 vertices accessible on a 2048 map. means there is 2 inaccessible tiles and 1 inaccessible vertex
23:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have fixed water borders active, you get 1 additional tile, but you lose the ability to terraform 1 vertex
23:51:22  <Speeder__> loading heightmap I assume is always "freeform" mode?
23:53:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i think you can set that up
23:54:40  <Speeder__> so, in a heightmap file... pixel 0x0 is a vertex, outside the map. pixel 1x1, and pixel 2047x2047, are whole tiles, but that are "void tiles", kinda outside the map?
23:56:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no
23:57:21  <Eddi|zuHause> pixel 0x0 is both a void tile and an "outside" vertex, 1x1 is a real tile, and 2047x2047 is a void tile, but a real vertex
23:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> 2047x2047 must be a real vertex, because it still affects the slope on the real tile 2046x2046

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