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00:12:29 *** adikt has quit IRC 00:25:05 *** Progman has quit IRC 01:17:12 *** adikt has joined #openttd 01:22:34 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 01:35:29 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 01:43:16 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 02:02:09 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 02:27:25 *** tokai has joined #openttd 02:27:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 02:31:28 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:34:22 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 02:45:20 <Speeder> I can't f igure how to make my msys2 install pillow :( 02:45:32 <Speeder> whenever I tyr it complains there is no libjpeg 02:45:36 <Speeder> but I installed all the ones I could find 02:53:51 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 02:54:31 <Speeder> msys2 is just nuts 02:57:21 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:05:49 *** glx has quit IRC 03:22:44 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:31:30 <Speeder> D: 03:31:35 <Speeder> why building FIRS is so hard? 03:31:40 <Speeder> old nml doesn't run 03:31:44 <Speeder> new nml refuses to compile it 03:40:02 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 03:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, $someone once told me i shouldn't bother making nml backwards compatible when i attempted to do so 03:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "maintaining two branches is easy" they claimed 04:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there are probably 3 viable paths here: 1) roll back to an older system (probably just python) version to make nml run, 2) backport the commits that made nml run on the newer system/python to the 0.4 branch, or 3) revert the offending removal-commits from firs master 04:41:47 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 05:30:05 <Speeder> what was first version of nml that supports 16 outputs? 05:31:08 <Speeder> to make firs compile I ended making a franken toolchain with lots of mixed versions of old stuff until nml ran, and even then had to edit some py files on nml itself because it was using stuff that was removed from python 05:31:13 <Speeder> because I couldn't downgrade python 05:31:38 <Speeder> I sadly can't just use newer firs because they removed the stuff I want to actually use 05:33:49 *** keoz has joined #openttd 06:22:53 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 06:22:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 06:29:43 *** tokai has quit IRC 06:30:08 <Speeder> so grpahviz was crashing 06:30:23 <Speeder> so I download a new version, compiled with MSVC instead of mingw 06:30:30 <Speeder> copied all its bin files, pasted on mingw folder 06:30:33 <Speeder> now it works fine 06:30:34 <Speeder> :D 06:30:38 <Speeder> frankentools for the win 06:35:33 *** Progman has joined #openttd 07:04:11 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:30:21 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 07:35:02 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:01:25 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:12:52 <andythenorth> yo 08:14:45 <andythenorth> hmm 08:14:58 <andythenorth> the nml backwards compatibility approach 08:15:13 <andythenorth> does leave older graphs dead 08:15:21 <andythenorth> graphs? grfs :P 08:46:23 <Wolf01> o/ 08:53:04 *** aRen22___ has joined #openttd 08:53:34 * aRen22___ slaps aRen22___ around a bit with a large fishbot 08:56:36 <aRen22___> !? 08:57:14 *** aRen22___ has left #openttd 09:04:26 <Wolf01> I think it happened something I couldn't understand :/ 09:11:51 *** keoz has quit IRC 09:32:24 *** Samu has joined #openttd 09:32:32 <Samu> hi 09:43:24 *** keoz has joined #openttd 09:55:17 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yeah, I think it's a mistake at this point 09:55:36 <andythenorth> I'm 50:50 09:55:41 <FLHerne> There's too much nml code to go around breaking it 09:55:56 <FLHerne> Maybe a 1-2 [feature] release deprecation cycle? 09:56:06 <andythenorth> if the docs were versioned it would make sense 09:56:16 <andythenorth> but we don't actually simplify it for authors 09:57:10 * andythenorth words, more coffee 09:57:36 <andythenorth> the intent of aggressively moving forward would be great, but we have to do all of that, not just some of it 09:58:52 <andythenorth> oof, there are too many FIRS forks on old versions of FIRS 09:59:09 <andythenorth> and FIRS is aggressive about moving forward, so they're stuck on the old version 09:59:27 <andythenorth> and they have no route forward because they're no develolopers like me 10:03:53 <andythenorth> hmm I really need more coffee 10:08:52 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 10:09:05 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 10:13:28 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 10:13:45 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 10:21:31 <michi_cc> I'm not very well versed in the NML internals, but is there something that would make supporting the old produce syntax exceptionally difficult, or does sombody just need to spend some work on? 10:22:22 <michi_cc> I can't imagine that any of the properties would pose a problem there. 10:25:47 <TrueBrain> fun random fact: the top 10 BaNaNaS objects (in terms of bandwidth) are good for only 45% of the traffic 10:26:42 <nielsm> michi_cc: I'm quite sure I had it working at one point 10:27:03 <nielsm> and then was told that NML syntax is not supposed to be backwards compatible and only keep the latest and greatest 10:27:52 <andythenorth> historically, AIUI, nml moved forward with removing syntax 10:28:13 <andythenorth> but I suspect that was due to a combination of 'mistakes were made' in nml 10:28:27 <andythenorth> and cleaning up weird parts of the newgrf spec that nobody should be using 10:29:24 <andythenorth> that's quite different to now 10:29:56 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 10:30:01 <michi_cc> Well, either nml should stay backwards-compatible, or the old (0.4) branch needs to get maintanance, too. 10:30:01 <andythenorth> there are all these FIRS forks made by people who will (1) struggle to upgrade the nml (2) struggle to maintain an old python environment 10:30:09 <andythenorth> oof :| 10:30:24 <andythenorth> its the problem of producing development tools for non developers 10:30:34 * andythenorth coffee :) 10:30:50 <andythenorth> I don't want to talk myself into an accidental sadness quit :) 10:33:39 <andythenorth> nielsm probably not hard to revert the removals? 10:33:53 <FLHerne> michi_cc: 0.5.0 actually had the original Produce block code, just unused 10:34:23 <andythenorth> the problem I see, maintaining the old syntax wins nobody anything, it just feels nicer 10:34:25 <FLHerne> It got removed in 0.5.1 10:34:44 <andythenorth> the grfs using the old syntax are dead either way 10:34:49 <FLHerne> Incidentally, I really don't love the new syntax, it's pretty ugly :-/ 10:35:09 <andythenorth> deferring the issue that the authors aren't capable of updating doesn't make the grfs less dead 10:36:39 <andythenorth> my point would be much better explained by an xkcd :) 10:36:45 <andythenorth> is there an appropriate one? 10:36:51 <michi_cc> That assumes everybody wants to have 16-in-16-out cargoes, doesn't it? 10:37:21 <andythenorth> they will 10:37:25 <andythenorth> it's just a matter of time 10:38:02 <andythenorth> but I think they'll want mixed syntax 10:38:09 <andythenorth> they'll have 30 industries on the old syntax 10:38:21 <andythenorth> and 1 new one on the new syntax 10:38:28 <andythenorth> all with unique hand-crafted nml 10:38:46 <andythenorth> oof 10:40:06 * andythenorth should never be the nml maintainer 10:51:41 <andythenorth> nml 0.6? Put the old syntax back? :) 10:53:48 <FLHerne> I don't know if it's worth trying to change that in retrospect 10:54:16 <FLHerne> Are there any NML industry grfs that *aren't* FIRS or a direct fork of it? 10:57:49 <FLHerne> I mean, I'd be +1, but I probably can't be bothered to do it myself :p 10:58:48 *** cHawk- has quit IRC 10:59:06 <andythenorth> I don't know what ECS is now 10:59:09 <andythenorth> BSPI is nfo 11:00:01 <andythenorth> (counting all the Auz Ind as one) I can name 5 FIRS forks 11:00:07 <andythenorth> there's probably more 11:04:27 <andythenorth> is it possible to have two different .exe files on windows? 11:04:39 <andythenorth> just wondering how much of a problem it is to have 2 nml 11:11:16 <nielsm> if you like to have both on path you can just rename one, like nml4.exe and nml5.exe 11:14:00 <andythenorth> ok so the biggest problem is people who depend on package managers? 11:14:08 * andythenorth has so many nmls :P 11:49:35 *** glx has joined #openttd 11:49:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 11:58:45 *** Borg has joined #openttd 13:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <michi_cc> I'm not very well versed in the NML internals, but is there something that would make supporting the old produce syntax exceptionally difficult, or does sombody just need to spend some work on? <-- i had a crude patch trying to unify the old and the new grammar, but i don't remember if there was anything needed for the internals. i think it was just about having both the old and new code to keep around 13:16:00 <nielsm> yea I'm pretty sure the hard part is making sure the grammar is unambiguous 13:16:49 <nielsm> also unrelated, the big update to derail valley is great, very much recommend if you like driving trains 13:18:12 <andythenorth> Speeder hmm 13:18:21 <andythenorth> oops unintended highlight :D 13:44:21 <glx> I think it should be possible to reintroduce removed industry vars, with a deprecated warning when they are used 13:45:36 <Speeder> glx, I would like that O.O 13:46:06 <Speeder> just woke up :D I liked that talk 13:46:32 <glx> as I don't see openttd removing support for old variables because old grf exist 13:47:37 <Speeder> the way nml works now, in my point of view, just make creating newgrfs a pain, any new newgrf author will likely want to fork whatever he is using 13:47:41 <Speeder> most newgrfs are old 13:48:21 <Speeder> so at best, a community of old nml authors will eventually show up 13:48:38 <Speeder> at worst, they don't show up at all, and you end with openttd content being made mostly by andy and noone else 13:49:01 <glx> for some nml features it can be hard to maintain both old and new syntax, but for variables it's quite easy 13:52:46 <andythenorth> and props 13:53:16 <glx> anything valid in newgrf spec should be valid in nml 13:53:38 <andythenorth> glx that just leads to people using crap parts of the API 13:53:50 <andythenorth> there are parts of the newgrf API that are borderline broken 13:54:01 <andythenorth> and it would be very confusing to authors 13:54:16 <andythenorth> Speeder out of interest, why can't you just use an older nml exe? 13:54:17 <glx> but variables and props should be ok 13:54:31 <andythenorth> yes 13:54:41 <andythenorth> it's still a false economy, because the older grfs are dead 13:54:52 <andythenorth> so maintaining support is weird 13:55:23 <glx> but authors could convert to new syntax more easily if old syntax still compiles 13:55:25 <andythenorth> but then again, if you want to do an NRT grf, and you have an older industry grf, nml 0.5 screws you 13:55:41 <andythenorth> and if you only know how to get nml from a package manager as 'latest' you're all out of luck 13:55:42 <Speeder> andythenorth, I am using the 4.5 one now, but I had to hack some of its py files 13:55:45 <glx> for a big grf it can be hard to do all conversion in one pass 13:55:47 <Speeder> because it uses stuff python removed 13:55:53 <Speeder> like "clock" 13:56:05 <andythenorth> yeah this is the problem 13:56:10 <andythenorth> I have all the pythons 13:56:12 <andythenorth> and all the nmls 13:56:35 <andythenorth> most people will just be dependent on a package manager, and no ability to install what they need 13:56:51 <andythenorth> the problem isn't nml, the problem is python is crap 13:56:58 <Speeder> since I wanted just to do a 'quick job' and I am on windows I tried to use package managers yes 13:57:03 <Speeder> ended with a mess somehow 13:57:04 <Speeder> msys2 is nuts 13:57:23 <glx> on windows there's the standalone exe 13:57:41 <Speeder> I have now 3 or 4 copies of libpng and pillow still refused to install on msys 13:57:42 <glx> at least I know it works for 0.5+ 13:57:54 <Speeder> meanwhile my other python code I am using python 2.7 on windows 13:58:08 <Speeder> didn't want to risk installing python 3 on windows breaking python 2 13:58:32 <Speeder> glx, FIRS need Make 13:58:34 <glx> in msys many pip packages must be installed via pacman 13:58:37 <Speeder> so... no pure windows toolchain for that one 13:58:54 <Speeder> glx, I installed them with pacman, didn't work 13:59:00 <Speeder> python wouldn't detect them 13:59:10 <Speeder> installing pillow with pacman made python say it has no pillow 13:59:18 <Speeder> I ended finding some fugly hack on stackoverflow 13:59:25 <Speeder> interestingly even using "pip" didn't work 13:59:29 <Speeder> I had to use python -m pip 13:59:32 <Speeder> THEN it worked 13:59:42 <andythenorth> these days, I just install the python binaries, and virtualenv every project 13:59:56 <andythenorth> I used to fuck around with package manager python, but that's a disaster 14:00:06 <andythenorth> and for a while I built all the pythons myself, but also a disaster 14:00:54 <Speeder> the line to install pip: python -m pip install --global-option=build_ext --global-option="-ldl" pillow==5.4 14:01:15 <Speeder> not using 'ldl' sometimes would crash the linker, wtf 14:02:23 <glx> pacboy -S python-pillow just works 14:03:23 <glx> and I see it in pip list 14:04:00 <glx> I think you also need pacboy -S python-pip 14:07:20 <Speeder> I did that, didn't work when I tried "make" on FIRS 14:07:37 <Speeder> dunno if it was because I was using mingw64 environment and should have used msys2 one or something 14:07:55 <glx> you never have to use msys2 env 14:08:24 <glx> and FIRS makefile is not the best ;) 14:08:51 <glx> I think andythenorth hardcodes stuff for his system in it 14:10:08 <FLHerne> Speeder: nmlc.exe has the Pillow/PLY deps and some interpreter version compiled in, it should just work 14:10:47 <glx> yes the standalone version contains full python and required libs 14:11:32 <FLHerne> regardless of anything else you have installed 14:12:04 <Speeder> ah I see 14:12:21 <Speeder> anyway, frankentools are working now... I will leave them alone for now :P 14:12:47 <glx> it's just slower because it needs to unpack in tmp every time 14:16:11 *** gelignite has quit IRC 14:18:43 <Speeder> any way to make stuff depend on powerplant being powered? 14:18:56 <Speeder> or to do that I would need to tinker with a "script" ? 14:22:50 <FLHerne> BSPI does it, but I have no idea how 14:23:18 <FLHerne> Borg must know 14:24:33 <nielsm> the powerplant sets some data on the town 14:24:38 <nielsm> and the other industries read that data off the town 14:26:37 <andythenorth> it's an interesting approach 14:29:17 <andythenorth> glx feel free to rewrite the FIRS makefile btw 14:29:24 <andythenorth> you'd be the 4th person to supply one 14:29:47 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/blob/v4-release-track/Makefile 14:30:03 <andythenorth> strictly speaking, I should move the install target to Makefile.local 14:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the Makefile should have the default one, and Makefile.local can be used to override it 14:39:13 <nielsm> TrueBrain: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=87129 looks like some kind of issue with bananas/opengfx download 14:40:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause but what is the default? 14:40:07 <andythenorth> it's platform specific 14:40:12 <TrueBrain> nielsm: kinda disagree; seems he downloads it fine :) 14:40:20 <TrueBrain> seems more like OpenTTD is not picking up on them 14:40:24 <TrueBrain> common cause: openttd.cfg in random place 14:40:36 <TrueBrain> but how do you read a download issue in that thread? 14:40:36 <nielsm> well he gets NightGFX downloaded as the default graphics set 14:40:40 <glx> yup download seems fine 14:40:52 <TrueBrain> that for sure is not possible :D You have to select it :) 14:41:02 <nielsm> it's the second report I see of someone just installing the game and ending up with NightGFX 14:41:16 <andythenorth> call it a feature :) 14:41:18 <TrueBrain> maybe the bootstrap does funky stuff? 14:41:28 <andythenorth> is it the official binary? :P 14:41:40 <glx> nielsm: macos for both ? 14:42:13 <TrueBrain> https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenGFX_Readme <- that readme is out-of-date :D 14:42:29 <Borg> everything is in forum of BSPI on tt-forums 14:42:45 <Borg> Town storage per GRF.. 14:42:52 <TrueBrain> nielsm: seems someone needs to debug with him a bit; but I don't see how it is an infra issue, so not much I can do to help. This requires a bit of OpenTTD debugging 14:43:14 <TrueBrain> of course if someone uploaded NightGFX under the OpenGFX name, stuff like this can also happen .. not sure hwo uploaded OpenGFX <latest> to BaNaNaS :D 14:43:27 <andythenorth> urgh, USB-C and NVME is so slow 14:43:31 * andythenorth backing up :P 14:44:20 <nielsm> yeah the other case was also mac: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=87038 14:44:27 <Speeder> andythenorth, how I add multiple names to an industry? my attempt doesn't compile 14:44:41 <TrueBrain> so what is the bootstrap of OSX doing? 14:45:43 <Speeder> nevermind, literally typing "make" several times in a row, made it work 14:45:44 <Speeder> O.o 14:46:23 <Speeder> nope, it didn't 14:46:27 <Speeder> it compiles partially 14:47:01 <andythenorth> Speeder what are you trying to do? o_O 14:47:18 <Speeder> andythenorth, repurpose clay pit to be bauxite mine, since it looks similar 14:47:31 <Speeder> so I just added a line that change clay pit name to bauxite mine (I edited the language file too) 14:47:42 <Speeder> but the compiler says I am trying to concatenate a tuple Oo 14:48:01 <Speeder> File "src/render_docs.py", line 117, in get_industry_all_names 14:48:02 <Speeder> result.append(base_lang_strings.get(name_string, 'NO NAME ' + name_string + ' ' + industry.id)) 14:48:02 <Speeder> TypeError: can only concatenate str (not "tuple") to str 14:48:05 <nielsm> reproduced on windows: https://0x0.st/ipuK.png 14:48:45 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/ipuP.mp4 14:49:03 <TrueBrain> so what is the bootstrap doing? 14:49:07 <TrueBrain> how does it pick one or the other baseset? 14:49:26 <TrueBrain> (I really have no idea; never looked at that code :P) 14:50:17 <andythenorth> Speeder do you want the clay pit? 14:50:19 <nielsm> _network_content_client.RequestContentList(CONTENT_TYPE_BASE_GRAPHICS); 14:50:34 <Speeder> andythenorth, I just want to reuse claypit, so it outputs bauxite ore 14:50:46 <FLHerne> Speeder: At least one version of FIRS had an actual bauxite mine 14:50:46 <nielsm> I think it just requests the first base graphics set bananas returns 14:50:50 <FLHerne> 1.x? 14:51:01 <TrueBrain> nielsm: lolz .. that would be ... stupid? Silly? Not sure what word I want to use here :D 14:51:20 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 14:51:24 <Speeder> FLHerne, mixing 1.x with 3.x sounds quite nuts 14:51:37 <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/bootstrap_gui.cpp#L190-L202 14:51:43 <nielsm> is what I see from those two functions 14:51:56 <Speeder> still, Brazil is a huge net exporter of Bauxite... and we had two infamous accidents with bauxite mines in the last 4 years, can't just skip it 14:52:30 <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is like ... really silly :D 14:52:36 <TrueBrain> so for years it downloaded just what-ever came first :) 14:52:46 <TrueBrain> most likely also explains why often it was downloading an older OpenGFX 14:52:54 <TrueBrain> so this was chance based :D 14:53:00 <Speeder> (we had two different mines, but belonging to the same company, have their dams break and flood nearby towns with mud... imagine just like the default FIRS clay pit grpahics, where the site of the industry breaks open and all the water and mud slides out and wipes out a town completely out of the face of the earth...) 14:53:07 <andythenorth> Speeder what FIRS version? 14:53:10 <TrueBrain> ideally, it should show a dropdown for you to pick a version, I guess 14:53:14 <Speeder> 3.soemthing I am hacking 14:53:20 <TrueBrain> nielsm: what we can do, is fix this for now in bananas-server 14:53:22 <Speeder> 4 removed the economies I want 14:53:26 <TrueBrain> but possibly this needs attentions in the client too :) 14:53:38 <FLHerne> Speeder: Aren't you making your own economy anyway? 14:53:54 <nielsm> TrueBrain: I suppose that would be the best yes, show a list of all basesets available (and their download size) and ask which one to use, and probably default to OpenGFX explicitly 14:54:09 <Speeder> FLHerne, yes, but it is heavily basded on Extreme and Hot Country 14:54:21 <TrueBrain> the first tt-forums you showed btw is only part of this story, ofc. For some reason his own downloads are also not showing up 14:54:29 <Speeder> https://abrilveja.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/brasil-barragem-brumadinho-021.jpg <<< how it looks when a bauxite mine gobbles up a town 14:54:33 <TrueBrain> but yeah, we can fix this in the infra for now :) 14:54:36 <andythenorth> if you just want to change the name, edit https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/blob/master/src/lang/english.lng#L229 14:54:39 <nielsm> but yeah some hack to make bananas always return opengfx first and maybe with a slight delay before any other sets 14:54:49 <andythenorth> but it's not very sustainable approach to editing FIRS :) 14:55:16 <TrueBrain> the list returned is just that, a list 14:55:19 <TrueBrain> so no need for a delay :) 14:55:22 <Speeder> andythenorth, I added one more line to that file 14:55:26 <nielsm> okay good :P 14:55:27 <TrueBrain> (in the same package are like N contentinfos :) ) 14:55:38 <nielsm> I was afraid it was like one packet per item and they could risk being reordered 14:55:40 <Speeder> andythenorth, then did like the steel mill does, changing the name on my economy only, to refer to that line 14:55:49 <Speeder> but it instead complains it is concatenating tuples, everywhere 14:55:54 <TrueBrain> but it shouldn't only put OpenGFX there, also the latest OpenGFX :) 14:55:56 <FLHerne> Speeder: v4 should still have most of the industries you're interested in, though? 14:56:01 <Speeder> FLHerne, no idea 14:56:13 <FLHerne> The 'economy' file is pretty much just a list of the cargos 14:56:13 <andythenorth> Speeder probably a missing ',' or an extra ',' 14:56:42 <FLHerne> IMO, forking a version that's already outdated and won't build with current tools is a bad idea long-term 14:56:53 <Speeder> andythenorth, you were right :D 14:56:59 <TrueBrain> a nasty and unexpected "bug" nielsm :) I will fix it tonight :) 14:57:08 <andythenorth> FLHerne I'd be +1, but the v4 branch contains missing features 14:57:11 <andythenorth> 'contains' 14:57:12 <andythenorth> :P 14:57:42 <andythenorth> industry closure doesn't work, and occasionally openttd reports an industry doing something invalid 14:59:17 <Speeder> how it would do something invalid? 14:59:30 <andythenorth> I didn't look yet 14:59:44 <andythenorth> it's not a consistent warning, so it's either FIRS (likely) or OpenTTD 15:01:27 <andythenorth> Speeder it's probably plausible to migrate to FIRS v4 later 15:01:39 <Speeder> andythenorth, can a CARGO have multiple multiple names? 15:01:48 <andythenorth> yes, but it's unwise 15:01:50 <TrueBrain> purely because OpenGFX was the first entry in the database, this was working fine in the old setup nielsm :D By accident, basically :P Who ever implemented bootstrap, was rather lazy tbh .. :P 15:01:52 <andythenorth> and there's no benefit 15:02:25 <Speeder> andythenorth, why? 15:02:32 <Speeder> the benefit is that Brazil doesn't have sugar beets 15:02:37 <Speeder> but is a huge producer of sugar cane 15:03:09 <Speeder> but everythign else is same as FIRS already have, so I would like to just rename sugar beets to sugar cane and change the graphics :) 15:06:01 <andythenorth> that's actually the case where I removed support 15:06:11 <andythenorth> sugarcane / sugar beet used to be 1 cargo, 2 names 15:06:15 <andythenorth> it's a headache 15:06:18 <andythenorth> just add sugarcane 15:07:06 <andythenorth> label is SGCN https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes#Cargo_Labels 15:07:36 <andythenorth> it's 1 python file, 3 lang strings, 1 import, and some crap with the icon 15:08:15 <Speeder> ah 15:10:37 <Speeder> oh, it already exists :D 15:10:39 <Speeder> nice 15:11:49 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:12:56 <andythenorth> ping me if you get stuck adding the cargo 15:36:51 <Speeder> is it possible to make on a GRF, have "final" industries have a gameplay effect? 15:36:55 <Speeder> like powerplants affecting town growth 15:37:00 <Speeder> or builders yard speeding up building? 15:37:19 <Speeder> or needing powerplant before aluminum factory is built 15:37:23 <glx> town growth is controlled by cargos 15:39:14 <FLHerne> "needing powerplant before aluminum factory is built" should be possible in the callback 15:39:50 <FLHerne> Does delivering building supplies already improve town grown in FIRS? I thought so 15:40:45 <andythenorth> nope 15:41:18 <andythenorth> it makes me irrationally sad :) 15:41:22 <andythenorth> like, it's just a game 15:41:49 <andythenorth> but it bothers me more than it should :) 15:43:24 <Borg> Speeder: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks <- Callback 0x22 should do the trick 15:44:34 <_dp_> it's possible on paper but may not be good enough for a gameplay 15:44:54 <Speeder> well... Brazil has a huge economy around aluminum 15:45:05 <Speeder> and part of it is that we have a lot of power dedicated to that too 15:45:11 <Speeder> although it is the other way around 15:45:21 <Speeder> aluminum companies build factories, THEN they build powerplants 15:45:39 <Speeder> we also have a major cement manufacturer that built several coal powerplants for their own use 15:46:19 <Speeder> I would love if I could put hydro powerplants in t he game but... it probably would make more sense as decoration than an industry :( 15:47:45 <andythenorth> I have tried all this stuff 15:47:48 <andythenorth> OpenTTD can't do it 15:47:54 <andythenorth> and it will never be able to 15:48:20 <Borg> still. a lot has been done... :) 15:48:42 <Borg> I think people should focus more on math on industries.. instead building endless chains.. 15:48:43 <Speeder> andythenorth, I thought of doing it with scripts 15:48:46 <Speeder> is that feasible? 15:49:02 <Borg> not sure.. how people play game these days.. but I its boring when its stabilizes fast.. 15:49:15 <Speeder> Borg, explain better please :) 15:49:21 <Borg> Speeder: did you look at BSPI? 15:49:44 <Borg> I regred I didnt made it 10 years ago.. oh well.. ;) didnt had so much free time... 15:49:45 <Speeder> never heard of it 15:50:19 <Borg> oh.. long story short... its default OpenTTD industries in stockpiling mode.. but there are extra params.. 15:50:39 <Borg> like.. Power Plant produces electrice power.. w/ is needed by secondary industries 15:50:51 <Borg> all primary industries can have reserves with depletes... and industries close 15:51:01 <Borg> secondary industry production depends on stockpiles and ratings. 15:51:11 <Speeder> cool 15:51:19 <_dp_> Speeder, with GS it depends on details, sounds possible for the most part but UI will probably suck 15:51:22 <Borg> primary industries needed valueables in town zones to boost production.... 15:51:26 <Borg> and its not all 0/1 15:51:49 <_dp_> Speeder, like you can probably implement energy requirements but where do you show how much energy one has? 15:51:50 <Speeder> _dp_, with GS I am more thinking this: when certain conditions are met, industries get built on their historical locations 15:51:52 <Borg> you need scale everything... because its depeneded on each other.. 15:52:11 <andythenorth> Speeder GS is really unpleasant to work with 15:52:18 <_dp_> Speeder, in town window or company goals mb if that fits but if you want power in a region to build industry there is nowhere to show it 15:52:20 <andythenorth> but don't let me put you off :) 15:52:36 <andythenorth> you have to manage savegame state, which is really fricking hard 15:52:41 <Speeder> for aluminum I am thinking this: at a certain date, bauxite mines get built on a certain place... (by the way, does "prospecting only" screw my GS?) 15:52:59 <Borg> why it should screw it? 15:53:00 <Speeder> then when industrial aluminum is supposed to start, GS build powerplants and aluminum factories 15:53:16 <Speeder> Borg, the prospecting only option, affects GS? 15:53:18 <Borg> I play w/ with prosepcting only and custom GS... to handle industries preseed.. and regenerate them only for first 25 years.. 15:53:51 <Borg> I dont really understand... what do you mean affects it? 15:53:53 <Speeder> for example: I want to build stuff on specific x, y positions, does prospecting-only option blocks that for the GS? 15:53:59 <Borg> nope 15:54:06 <Borg> its independed settings 15:54:40 <Speeder> ah nice 15:55:16 <Borg> Speeder: from what I hear.. you need to employ both GRF and GS.. for what you want to do 15:55:24 <Speeder> Borg, it is what I am suspecting yes 15:56:05 <Speeder> but well... I already spent 288 hours or so just making the map... this year, that is. 15:56:10 <Speeder> I started this project allt he way back in 2014 15:56:20 <Borg> ugh... :) quite a lot.. 15:56:20 <Speeder> I abandoned it back then because height limit was making the map look completely awful 15:56:23 <andythenorth> OpenTTD is really poor at anything other than coop style 'MOAR' gameplay 15:56:36 <Borg> Speeder: you sure its worth the effort? :) 15:56:38 <andythenorth> it can't do scripted scenarios etc 15:56:51 <Borg> focus on economy model... but just generate maps.. its more fun imo 15:57:00 <andythenorth> most scripting tends towards goal achievement, which are usually just 'transport moar' 15:57:02 <Borg> whatever good scenerio you will do.. it will get bored after all.. 15:57:06 <Speeder> andythenorth, the scripting I Want to do is mostly so I can make the game start in 1700 but still end with historic industries in correct places 15:57:12 * Borg loves RNG.. 15:57:35 <andythenorth> Speeder will probably work 15:57:35 <Wolf01> Make a route in less than 12 parsecs? 15:57:51 * andythenorth just rambling now 15:58:09 <andythenorth> but the ultimate OpenTTD games are played with YETI, NUTS and PURR 15:58:11 <Wolf01> Without terraforming 15:58:16 <andythenorth> that's what OpenTTD is good at 15:58:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, "FASTER" style also works if done right ;) 15:58:37 <Borg> andythenorth: yeah.. too bad I dont see BSPI servers yet ;) 15:58:38 <andythenorth> variant of MOAR :P 15:58:59 <andythenorth> OpenTTD is really crippled as a simulator where things change over time 15:59:06 <andythenorth> it's so bad, we should almost remove time evolution 15:59:11 <andythenorth> which would solve a lot of problems 15:59:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, openttd is crippled as a simulator period xD 15:59:25 <Speeder> seriously, for this project, stuff I learned so far: Python, GIS in general, QGIS, where to find official government maps of stuff, where to find non-official maps, a lot about my country geography that I never knew, tinkered a little with a .nuts script, learned a lot of weird functions for libre office calc... 16:00:12 <Borg> Speeder: if this gives you a fun... then go ahead... thats whats matter... 16:00:13 <andythenorth> _dp_ too true :) 16:00:27 <andythenorth> I am playing a game at the moment, it's good 16:00:32 <Borg> dont try to do something for community tho.. you can be seriosly disappointed.. 16:00:38 <andythenorth> I was using pause mode a lot 16:00:48 <andythenorth> I wish the trains and industries would continue running in pause mode 16:00:50 <andythenorth> it would be much better 16:00:54 <Borg> lool? 16:01:03 <Speeder> the python thing I am not sure if I am just crazy genius or idiotically dumb... but basically I concluded that I was too lazy to fight installing a toolchain for C (my favourite language) just to process my GIS data... python 2.7 was already installed, so I went with: "well, learning python must be easier than installing C toolchain on windows" 16:01:09 <Borg> andythenorth: no comment ;P 16:01:10 <andythenorth> pause the game, but all industries and vehicles keep running 16:01:53 <FLHerne> andythenorth: date cheat 16:02:18 <FLHerne> (auto-date-cheat would be nice) 16:02:24 <Speeder> Borg, I am making project mostly to myself, and to learn things, get out of my rusty spot 16:02:39 <Speeder> although I even went to college to learn gamedev, my current "day" profession is marketing 16:02:47 <Speeder> and my game making skills were getting too rusty for my taste 16:03:23 <Speeder> I was missing all this mucking around in toolchains, coding, researching, etc... 16:04:14 <Borg> thats ok then... :) I prefer to play games instead... but if I dont like sth.. I will mod it.. 16:04:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, what's the problem with unpausing it? 16:04:19 <Borg> but then.. m000ar gaming :) 16:04:21 <_dp_> especially in a singleplayeyr 16:04:43 <Borg> I b0rked a lot of games... :D 16:07:48 <andythenorth> FLHerne yes like the date cheat, but built in :P 16:08:46 <Speeder> where I get information on what the industries paremeters does? 16:08:53 <Speeder> so I can get the balance right, at least in theoretical math 16:09:12 <andythenorth> which parameters? 16:13:25 <andythenorth> _dp_ did you ever come up with a solution for newgrf vs. GS vs. game economy? :P 16:13:33 <andythenorth> we both hate it, I have NFI what would be better 16:14:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, yes and no 16:14:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, what I do lately is techically no newgrf, no GS and no economy xD 16:14:46 <_dp_> but it's ok xD 16:14:57 <Speeder> andythenorth, I mean: production multiplier, cost rate, what is "clustering", etc... 16:15:51 <_dp_> though I guess you can call it economy as money actually matters 16:16:08 <_dp_> it's just that you can spend a lot of money to save a bit of time 16:18:08 <andythenorth> I never figured out what the problem I have is :P 16:18:21 <andythenorth> but it's so weird that town growth has *nothing* to do with cargo 16:18:28 <andythenorth> and is only based on 'have 5 stations' 16:18:37 <Speeder> ??? 16:18:39 <Speeder> explain that Oo 16:18:48 <andythenorth> town growth has nothing to do with cargo 16:19:26 <andythenorth> currently the game mechanic is something like this: 16:19:36 <andythenorth> - transport cargo from industries to make money 16:19:54 <andythenorth> - picking up this cargo will cause nearby towns to grow and block your routes 16:20:03 <andythenorth> it's such a weird game 16:20:10 <andythenorth> fortunately town growth can be turned off 16:20:38 <andythenorth> town growth reminds me of the brownouts and traffic in original simcity 16:20:45 <_dp_> that's not quite how it works but whatever, default growths makes no sense 16:21:23 <andythenorth> it's like getting penalised for success 16:21:30 <andythenorth> towns just spam the map 16:21:46 <_dp_> but there are GS to make it better 16:21:52 <andythenorth> GS is a joke :) 16:22:09 <andythenorth> I tried making one, it's way too hard for me 16:22:09 <_dp_> for a timed goal citybuilder is pretty much the best there is 16:22:13 <andythenorth> I'm not a good enough developer 16:22:22 <andythenorth> have to deal with saveload and all that crap 16:24:03 <_dp_> yeah, it's bad... 16:24:08 <andythenorth> I think the reason we have so few GS is that only proper programmers can write them 16:24:13 <andythenorth> whereas any idiot can write a newgrf :) 16:24:23 <_dp_> not that doing it in C++ like me is much better but at least there are more possibilities 16:25:52 <_dp_> andythenorth, in my opinion it's the opposite, proper programmers don't want to deal with that shit :p 16:28:40 <Speeder> andythenorth, your economies have themes, what was the idea with the original "extreme" one? 16:28:48 <andythenorth> there wasn't one 16:28:52 <andythenorth> that's why I deleted it 16:29:02 <andythenorth> it was mostly a copy of Railroad Tycoon 3 16:29:45 <Speeder> ah I see 16:29:54 <Speeder> well, it is being a good base for my brazil economy :D 16:30:02 <Borg> andythenorth: I agree that GS is hard... I know C very well.. but I had problems with GS... 16:30:06 <Speeder> I thought I would only expand it but just removed grain 16:30:10 <Borg> but once you pass certain point.. it goes easier.. 16:30:17 <andythenorth> dealing with state is always hard 16:30:27 <Speeder> grain was using slots I needed for other things... and Brazil doesn't produce grain. (grain requires cold climates) 16:30:30 <andythenorth> newgrf doesn't have to manage state at all 16:30:54 <Borg> andythenorth: nah.. its not about state.. 16:31:05 <Borg> I had very serious problem between Instance and Class.. on GS 16:31:16 <Borg> but once I got it... it went smooth 16:31:50 <_dp_> extreme idea is MOAR industries :p 16:31:51 <Borg> and in GRF you can have states as well ;P 16:32:13 <andythenorth> yes but OpenTTD manages it for you 16:32:20 <andythenorth> much easier 16:33:30 <Speeder> FIRS have some hard-on for fruit or something 16:33:42 <Speeder> whenever I look at my graph it has tons of arrows around fruit 16:33:45 <Speeder> :P 16:33:47 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:34:46 <andythenorth> oof, I have lost interest in my OpenTTD game 16:35:20 <Speeder> andythenorth, you have left any other leftover industries or cargo in FIRS3 ? 16:35:29 <andythenorth> leftover? 16:35:34 <Speeder> like sugarcane 16:35:48 <Speeder> stuff that has graphics and maybe some code but is not in use in any economy 16:35:58 <andythenorth> look in the __init__ files for cargos and industries 16:36:05 <andythenorth> see if anything is commented out 16:36:58 <Speeder> andythenorth, sugarcane wasn't commented out, I had to add it back in 16:37:20 <Speeder> I found some industry named only "factory" 16:37:25 <Speeder> that is seemly not enabled in any economy 16:37:54 <andythenorth> I mostly delete unused things 16:42:14 <andythenorth> house grfs can control town growth, right? 16:43:10 <nielsm> not directly, I don't think 16:43:33 <nielsm> I think houses can reject being built by callback but that's it 16:44:17 <andythenorth> that would work 16:44:33 <andythenorth> so FIRS could patch all the baseset houses, so they won't build 16:46:22 <nielsm> and there's also a callback for "protecting" a town building from destruction/replacement (except by direct player action) 16:46:33 <andythenorth> Borg how does BSPI control towns? 16:46:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8167: No error message subtitle for if house can't be replaced while building industry https://git.io/JfVeI 16:47:02 <nielsm> very appropriate report 16:49:11 <Speeder> I really wish I could use more than 2 outputs now D: 16:49:30 <andythenorth> oh we removed the train length markers from depot? :( 16:49:32 <andythenorth> that's sad 16:49:43 <andythenorth> I didn't see the commit for that 16:51:12 * andythenorth bisects 16:52:36 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #152: Codechange: Reintroduce 0.4 syntax for compatibility https://git.io/JfVeZ 16:53:02 <glx> it can compile FIRS master 16:53:22 <Speeder> it bothers me graphcs won't match production but I think I will need to make mixed farm produce 2 plant items 16:53:23 <Speeder> :/ 16:53:39 <andythenorth> depot train length markers are present in 1.10.0 release 16:55:02 <andythenorth> interesting, they're missing on a specific savegame 16:55:59 <FLHerne> glx: Nice 16:56:39 <FLHerne> Some kind of deprecation warning might be wanted unless we want to support it indefinitely 16:56:53 <glx> oh it warns a lot :) 16:57:15 <Borg> andythenorth: BSPI does not control towns at all.. 16:57:20 <FLHerne> Oh, I see it 16:57:25 <Borg> if you mean.. growth rate.. 16:57:31 <andythenorth> yes 16:57:44 <andythenorth> so towns don't require power to grow? 16:57:50 <Borg> nope.. 16:58:13 <Borg> I tought I could add paracitic power usage by towns.. but that would complicate whole math again.. 16:58:36 <FLHerne> Maybe too much warning, even :p 16:58:41 <andythenorth> so they deplete the amount in register? 16:58:53 * andythenorth has an idea 16:59:05 <andythenorth> what if towns were re-implemented as industries? 16:59:22 <Borg> hmm 16:59:23 <andythenorth> oh there's no 'None' option for towns 16:59:28 <andythenorth> that's annoying 16:59:40 <Borg> or... maybe add some kind of production callback to towns itself too? ;) 16:59:46 <andythenorth> that's been ruled out 16:59:49 <andythenorth> towns are GS or nothing 17:00:42 <andythenorth> hmm, I might abandon FIRS, I'm kinda fed up with it 17:01:07 <Borg> Im a industry guy.. reallly... I never really grow towns except for goods dumps.. 17:01:29 <Borg> but. in BSPI I added that thingie w/ valueables.. when you really need to grown towns.. so bank productions scale... 17:01:40 <Borg> I hate doing it... but I do it :) I wish I had PAX coop players 17:01:49 <andythenorth> I did that with junk yard in FIRS 17:01:53 <andythenorth> depends on town popn. 17:02:05 <andythenorth> I did it to give an incentive to grow town 17:02:14 <Borg> yep.. and it works very well 17:02:14 <andythenorth> but actually, growing towns is dumb as F 17:02:26 <andythenorth> they're so stupid 17:02:31 <Borg> im really happy w/ BSPI... v2.00 have just minor thing added (or major... ) 17:02:41 <Borg> Organic Industries have fertility.. 17:02:47 <Borg> so they can disappear too... 17:03:03 <Borg> andythenorth: well... I agree... GS script could solve it... but im too lazy to do it 17:03:17 <Borg> if someone competent could provide city builder GS scripts... would be nice 17:03:39 <Borg> they made them pretty nice... you start w/ pasangers.. and if city growns certain point.. you need to provide goods... 17:03:45 <Borg> and also... this is not 0/1 17:04:08 <Borg> its like in BSPI... ith math... bigger city -> moar passangers and goods you need to provide to for growth.. thats cool 17:04:25 <Borg> all my games I run w/ both GRF + GS.. 17:04:32 <Borg> so I have no problem to split functionality... 17:04:40 * andythenorth tries BSPI 17:04:45 <Borg> andythenorth: wanna 2.00? 17:04:48 <Borg> not yet released 17:05:00 <andythenorth> does it change a lot? 17:05:15 <andythenorth> I really don't want to go the GS route 17:05:18 <Speeder> andythenorth, you made iron horse² 17:05:20 <Speeder> ? 17:05:22 <Borg> some minor tweaks + Param1, bit3: organics have fertility 17:05:26 <andythenorth> Speeder yes 17:05:30 <andythenorth> not alone 17:05:32 <Borg> andythenorth: you dont need GS at all for BSPI 17:05:47 <Borg> I use GS only for industries preseed (I play w/ prospecting only) and to limit towns growth to 20k 17:05:53 <Borg> because I dont want them to take over the world :D 17:05:55 <andythenorth> I have NFI how I would merge GS together 17:05:58 <Speeder> andythenorth, what is the reason it removes maglev? 17:06:13 <Speeder> (not complaining, I isntalled it because one guy said it was good idea because it removes maglev, but I don't understood why) 17:06:22 <andythenorth> I saw that reddit post 17:06:31 <andythenorth> I would file that under 'people on reddit say odd things' 17:06:45 <andythenorth> it removes maglev because by convention, vehicle grfs remove the default vehicles 17:06:55 <Speeder> basically, I found an old reddit post where someone recommended a server that is specialized in 1700s gameplay 17:07:09 <andythenorth> Borg got a link? or forum DM 17:07:09 <Speeder> the webpage was down ,but I found a early version of it on archive.org 17:07:27 <Speeder> the guy recommends using FIRS and Iron Horse (not even 2, I think it didn't existed back then) 17:07:39 <Speeder> and said he likes Iron Horse because it removes default maglev, and then he install other maglev 17:07:45 <andythenorth> [emoji] 17:08:23 <Borg> andythenorth: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=84735 <- BSPI v1.00 17:08:43 <andythenorth> I got 1.01 off bananas :) 17:08:46 <Borg> if you want 2.00 let me know.. I will give you temp url... I played a game w/ it and it works great.. but I want it 100% bug gree :D 17:08:49 <Borg> yeah.. 17:08:56 <Borg> I reupload v2.00 when it will be flawless 17:09:26 <Borg> andythenorth: read the forum.. because it have some Param1 bits for extra stuff 17:09:33 <Borg> I suggest playith w/ Param1 = 8 17:09:37 <Borg> no wait 17:09:39 <Borg> I suggest playith w/ Param1 = 7 17:09:40 <Borg> I mean :D 17:09:55 <Borg> but in forum its all info.. 17:09:59 <andythenorth> bitmasks :) 17:10:08 <Borg> yep 17:10:40 <Borg> also.. 17:10:46 <Borg> disable smooth_economy 17:10:58 <Borg> people raported weird things when smooth economy is enabled 17:11:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #151: Add: Ignore unreferenced named parameters https://git.io/Jfa8j 17:11:11 <andythenorth> smooth economy :| 17:11:21 <Borg> I hate it :D 17:11:38 <Borg> smooth economy makes changes boring.. 17:12:33 <andythenorth> so industry will only produce if power station in same town is supplied? 17:12:36 <Borg> but I implements industry production changes.. both monthly and random.. 17:12:46 <Borg> andythenorth: yes.. and as I said.. its math.. 17:12:56 <andythenorth> how are you forcing every town to have a power station? 17:13:02 <Borg> I dont :) 17:13:09 <andythenorth> oh 17:13:11 <Borg> player should build it 17:13:15 <andythenorth> yes I see on the map 17:13:59 <Borg> hence.. thats why I use GS as well.. (not published yet) 17:14:02 <andythenorth> oh lol all the coal mines on the map closed at once 17:14:06 <Borg> LOL? 17:14:09 <andythenorth> I guess I changed a setting 17:14:25 <Borg> ahh.. applied setting on running game? 17:14:27 <andythenorth> yes 17:14:30 <andythenorth> bad things happen 17:14:32 <Borg> :) 17:14:51 <Borg> andythenorth: if you have 1.8.0 openttd 17:14:52 <nielsm> I should finish up that GS industry control PR 17:14:56 <Borg> you can jump in to my server... :) 17:15:15 <Borg> so you can take a look.. but. playing alone slowly is fun too 17:15:17 <andythenorth> can't run 1.8.0, it's 32 bit :) 17:15:21 <andythenorth> I will try locally 17:15:42 <andythenorth> nielsm others might, but I don't think I'd ever write a GS to try and fix FIRS 17:16:10 <andythenorth> there are too many roadbumps to make it worth it 17:16:28 <nielsm> FIRS doesn't have as much of that problem with industries closing before anyone begins servicing them 17:16:54 <nielsm> don't default settings in FIRS basically make industries never close? 17:16:57 <andythenorth> yup 17:17:20 <andythenorth> newgrf closure doesn't work :) 17:17:28 <Borg> huh? 17:17:31 <Borg> works... 17:17:35 <Borg> I use it in BSPI 17:17:39 <Borg> at least for primaries 17:17:43 <nielsm> because that's the main problem I invented that PR for, allowing scenarios to have pre-built industries that stay put until a player begins servicing each 17:18:27 <Speeder> oooh, found lots of cool removed stuff on git, I will see if I can restore them reverting-cherry-picking somehow 17:18:31 <nielsm> anyway imma play some more derail valley 17:18:37 * andythenorth should play Blitz 17:19:25 <Borg> andythenorth: one Power Station can supply 2-4 industries (layout depended) 17:19:39 <Borg> I mean... 100% prod for Power Station and Industries in same time 17:19:51 <Borg> but.. of course.. U can have twice the industries running at 50% each 17:20:13 <Borg> in BSPI.. there is much more micro to play.. 17:20:26 <andythenorth> primary production growth is the classic % transported? 17:20:37 <Borg> yep.. at least 75%+ to up.. 17:20:45 <Borg> if <50% it start to drop 17:20:59 <Borg> also.. stockpiles must be sufficient.. around 250 units per 4% 17:21:08 <Borg> 24 bands.. 17:21:53 <Borg> dont worry... cargo ratio calculation is affected :) works well.. 17:22:00 <Borg> I mean modified 17:23:01 <andythenorth> oops I supplied a power station with no secondaries in the town 17:23:05 * andythenorth failed 17:23:24 <andythenorth> Borg what size maps do you play normally? 17:25:10 <Borg> small maps... 256x256 or 512x512 17:25:15 <Borg> I like it tight ;) 17:25:25 <andythenorth> makes sense 17:26:12 <Borg> yeah... its hard to grow network too large w/ extractive stuff.. becuse industries runs out of resources and close 17:26:24 <Borg> and you need to reprospect them.. so.. its always something to do.. to adjust 17:26:38 <Borg> my current server game is 2500 year.. and still going.. 17:26:47 <Borg> map is very very growded now. because I dont close old stations.. 17:27:01 <Borg> because sometimes... industry spawn just right close to it.. so I can reuse it right away :) 17:27:23 <Borg> and if not very close.. I do transfer stations using normal rails... 17:28:17 <Borg> anyway.. bbl :) if you have questions.. shot.. I will answer them later.. 17:32:23 <Speeder> andythenorth, I see why you are removing stuff from firs... your IDs are full 17:33:09 <andythenorth> not yet 17:33:10 <andythenorth> but soon 17:33:25 <Speeder> andythenorth, FIRS3 are full, no vacant IDs for sprites 17:33:33 <Speeder> meaning I can't just restore the old ones you deleted 17:34:18 <andythenorth> you're getting an nml warning? 17:34:53 <Speeder> no, I mean I opened the file global_constants.py, and tile_numeric_ids has all IDs in use, it seems 17:35:00 <Speeder> unless you skipped lines 17:35:33 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/blob/master/src/global_constants.py#L92 17:35:42 <andythenorth> there are 100 or so vacant 17:36:03 <Speeder> ah, I can go "backwards" ? 17:36:08 <andythenorth> yes 17:36:12 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 17:36:16 <Speeder> I thought those ids couldn't overlap with the industry_numeric_ids ones 17:36:21 <andythenorth> original FIRS was trying to not conflict with default industry tiles 17:36:24 <andythenorth> I don't know why 17:36:37 <Speeder> you didn't made original FIRS? 17:36:45 <andythenorth> I didn't write much of the code 17:36:50 <Speeder> ah 17:56:26 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 18:20:02 *** keoz has quit IRC 18:51:31 *** Borg has quit IRC 18:51:35 <Speeder> andythenorth, so what is "output ratio" and what is "prod multiplier" ? 18:53:23 * andythenorth looks 18:53:43 <andythenorth> looks like prod_multiplier is for primaries 18:54:00 <andythenorth> it's the amount of cargo they produce 7 or 8 times a month or so 18:54:32 <andythenorth> looks like processed_cargos_and_output_ratios is for secondaries 18:54:48 <andythenorth> it's the required cargos, and how much they produce per 8 units delivered 18:56:07 *** plastic has quit IRC 19:10:39 <andythenorth> when attempting to place industries, could OpenTTD test whether it can terraform the location? 19:10:51 <andythenorth> or does that have performance problems? 19:13:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I guess combined with tile-placement callbacks you'd have a mess 19:13:30 <FLHerne> How does it know *how* to terraform the location? 19:14:54 <andythenorth> extended industry layout specification, encodes permitted tile height relative to the north tile 19:15:08 <andythenorth> slopes are already somewhat known, but require running the cb :( 19:15:24 <andythenorth> alternately, take a copy of the whole map, and try terraforming n times to see if it works :P 19:15:36 <andythenorth> the objective is larger industries 19:17:12 <andythenorth> but eh, the bigger the industry, the slower the terraforming check? something(n) 19:20:17 <FLHerne> glx: Sorry, I think I was wrong :-/ 19:20:49 <glx> for identifiers ? 19:22:02 <FLHerne> Yeah 19:22:57 <FLHerne> I didn't properly understand the effect of the `return` in pre_process(), it made more sense the way you had it :-( 19:23:08 <glx> haha 19:23:13 <glx> I can easily revert 19:23:21 <FLHerne> Maybe a comment in parse_actionD though 19:33:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #151: Add: Ignore unreferenced named parameters https://git.io/Jfa8j 19:39:48 <andythenorth> I never noticed the stereo on the sound effects before :) 19:40:58 <Speeder> how industry GRF authors test if economy is working right? 19:41:06 <Speeder> ie: check if there is no over or underproduction 19:41:16 <glx> they play 19:42:08 <andythenorth> they play, endlessly 19:42:19 <andythenorth> and sometimes they break their savegame, and have to start again :P 19:57:44 <Speeder> just stumbled on this... is it outdated? https://pythonhosted.org/nml/industries.html 19:59:07 <LordAro> Speeder: if you're not sure, the answer is yes 19:59:45 <FLHerne> Speeder: Very 19:59:49 <FLHerne> Speeder: You want https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Industries 20:01:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: In your experience, is pypy 7.3 dramatically faster than 7.2? 20:01:32 <FLHerne> Or did my laptop suddenly get faster? :p 20:02:29 <andythenorth> FLHerne I don't have comparison numbers 20:02:43 <andythenorth> but FIRS compile is now really really quite fast 20:02:53 <FLHerne> I mean it's, like, twice as fast as pypy was before 20:03:03 <FLHerne> And that was pretty fast compared to CPython :p 20:03:40 <andythenorth> it's a remarkable improvement 20:04:13 <andythenorth> hmm, I should have benchmarked my old laptop and this one against each other 20:04:25 <andythenorth> this one drops 0.6Ghz on the clock speed 20:04:51 <andythenorth> but gains on intel turbo boost (if it uses it, can't tell) 20:05:57 <andythenorth> could we multi-thread the parse step and the pre-processing? :P 20:06:21 <andythenorth> 'probably not' 20:14:16 <andythenorth> ha ha, when drawing FIRS industries, I sometimes use a single-industry compile option 20:14:23 <andythenorth> it's < 3s now for that 20:17:09 <glx> andythenorth: nmlc warning: "generated/firs.nml", line 293: Named parameter 'market_tree_snow' is not referenced, ignoring. (v4-release-track branch) 20:17:32 <andythenorth> that's interesting 20:17:49 <andythenorth> is that newly discovered from the PR? 20:18:08 <glx> using nml#151 yes 20:19:47 <andythenorth> do we have nml PRs queuing up? :) 20:20:48 <glx> for #151 I hope Eddi|zuHause can test it, but that needs some changes in CETS 20:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not ready to test that yet 20:22:42 <glx> no hurry :) 20:23:05 <glx> anyway this change may break all worklow similar to CETS one 20:23:18 <glx> *workflow 20:25:15 <FLHerne> glx: Ah, I was just trying it out on FIRS 20:38:26 <Speeder> whoa, just noticed biofuel on FIRS is for 2001 20:38:29 <Speeder> will have to change that 20:38:41 <Speeder> brazillians probably easily forget biofuels outside here are uncommon :P 20:39:07 <Speeder> (first biofuel plant in brazil was in 1925, and government heavily funded a lot of them in 1970s because of the petroleum shock) 20:40:54 <andythenorth> yeah, I might backdate that one day 20:41:19 <andythenorth> there is long history of biofuel, but the FIRS treatment was a bit 2000s USA 20:42:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne approved pull request #151: Add: Ignore unreferenced named parameters https://git.io/JfVIn 20:44:38 <Speeder> andythenorth, how I bump firs version so I don't mix with yours? 20:45:25 <FLHerne> If you're going to distribute it, you should change the grfid (and name) 20:45:32 <andythenorth> +1 20:45:55 <Speeder> when I am going by car to my grandparents home, I pass a ludicrous amounts (like, continuously occupied land in a 300km long stretch of road) of sugar cane plantations, biofuel factories and sugar factories 20:45:58 <Speeder> also they are incredibly smelly 20:46:09 <Speeder> thing is, WHERE is that? O.o 20:50:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #151: Add: Ignore unreferenced named parameters https://git.io/JfVI2 21:10:21 *** Samu has quit IRC 21:10:26 <FLHerne> Speeder: src/templates/header.pynml 21:11:05 <Speeder> ah :D 21:15:49 <Speeder> prob_in_game is in what scale? 21:15:53 <Speeder> when the game checks that number? 21:20:33 <FLHerne> 0.255, relative 21:21:25 <FLHerne> When placing industries at map creation, and I think also when they appear while playing 21:22:36 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:24:16 *** Progman has quit IRC 21:26:22 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:27:16 <Speeder> I was trying to understand if it was percentage or not 21:27:21 <Speeder> but seemly game decides it WILL build an industry 21:27:26 <Speeder> it just doesn't know what one 21:27:28 <Speeder> I got that right? 21:27:48 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:27:50 <Speeder> thus the number is just used to "pie-chart" the chance between industries to get built? 21:36:05 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 21:37:41 <FLHerne> Yes 21:42:23 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:56:27 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 21:56:39 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:09:11 *** tokai has joined #openttd 22:09:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 22:16:13 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 22:22:04 <Speeder> andythenorth, why FIRS 3 seemly... totally ignores the ratio variables? 22:22:17 <Speeder> it even checks if they are valid and all but never writes that to the nml 22:29:49 <FLHerne> Speeder: Which 'ratio variables' ? 22:30:26 <Speeder> FLHerne, for example: processed_cargos_and_output_ratios=[('BEAN', 6), ('FRUT', 6)], 22:30:35 <Speeder> code elsewhere complains if the sum is not 8 22:30:47 <Speeder> but seemly this never ends in the NML anywhere 22:34:23 <FLHerne> It should get written into the produce() blocks 22:34:38 <FLHerne> See src/templates/produce_secondary.pynml 22:35:46 <FLHerne> (I think, andythenorth would know better) 22:38:34 <FLHerne> Bleh, FIRS' stupidly huge nml file makes my editor sad 22:40:39 <andythenorth> Speeder is that the brewery? 22:40:53 <Speeder> in that one I pasted yes 22:40:55 <Speeder> why? 22:41:17 <andythenorth> brewery isn't combinatorial 22:41:25 <andythenorth> so it doesn't check the sum is 8 22:42:06 <Speeder> no idea what this means 22:42:13 <Speeder> when something is combinatorial? 22:42:26 <andythenorth> examples: 22:42:35 <andythenorth> brewery will give 6 out for every 8 in 22:42:40 <andythenorth> any cargo 22:43:01 <andythenorth> but blast furnace 22:43:24 <andythenorth> will give 3 steel out for 8 iron ore in 22:43:42 <andythenorth> or 2 steel out for 8 coal in 22:43:56 <andythenorth> or 3 steel out for 8 scrap metal in 22:44:05 <Speeder> combined_cargos_boost_prod <<< THIS? 22:44:10 <andythenorth> if both iron and coal are delivered, there will be 5 out 22:44:14 <andythenorth> yes 22:44:27 <andythenorth> if iron ore, coal and scrap metal are delivered, there will be 8 out for 8 in 22:44:43 <Speeder> ah 22:45:12 <andythenorth> there is a 3 month delivery window 22:45:21 <andythenorth> they don't all have to be simultaneous 22:45:22 <Speeder> so combined industries will always produce 8, assuming fully stocked? 22:45:28 <Speeder> and non-combined can produce less than 8? 22:45:43 <andythenorth> probably yes, I haven't read the actual code 22:46:01 <andythenorth> but that check sounds like I enforced 8 22:48:39 <Speeder> so you didn't enforce 8 for non-combined because when fully stocked they won't produce more than 8? 22:49:55 <andythenorth> yes 22:50:30 <Speeder> so the brewery, if you supply 8 of each item, will produce 6 in total, and consume 4 of each item? 22:53:46 <andythenorth> no 22:54:01 <andythenorth> if you supply 8 of each, it will produce 12 and consume 16 22:54:05 <andythenorth> in total 22:54:55 <Speeder> ah alright 23:14:11 * andythenorth bed 23:14:20 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:27:40 <Speeder> what cluster does on FIRS? 23:49:35 *** gelignite has quit IRC