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00:43:39 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 00:52:51 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 01:08:38 *** gelignite has quit IRC 01:45:29 *** b_jonas has quit IRC 02:05:37 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 02:08:57 *** debdog has quit IRC 02:20:41 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:51:08 *** glx has quit IRC 03:02:17 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:03:17 *** debdog has joined #openttd 03:06:42 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 03:23:41 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 03:36:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Moth-Tolias commented on pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder https://git.io/JJI18 04:16:08 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 04:34:37 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 04:36:20 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 04:53:01 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 05:55:48 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:03:47 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 06:06:03 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:33:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #7607: Feature Request/WIP: Rail Planner track builder https://git.io/JJIHO 06:52:15 <CornsMcGowan[m]> hello 06:52:36 <CornsMcGowan[m]> could somebody unstale https://git.io/JJIHO please 06:55:52 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 07:18:34 *** arikover has joined #openttd 08:16:25 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 08:31:30 *** crem has joined #openttd 08:36:50 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 08:54:02 *** cHawk has quit IRC 09:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> can't you just push to it to unstale? 09:18:25 <andythenorth> this auto body plant is awesome https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/90/3b/ae903b414c84f881963bc997e3cb33e8.jpg 09:18:34 <andythenorth> I can very definitely use that as inspiration 09:22:06 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 09:32:59 *** gelignite has quit IRC 09:41:19 *** Borg has joined #openttd 09:59:04 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd 10:09:15 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 10:29:58 <Timberwolf> Fancy working in the Longbridge Conveyor Bridge? ;) 10:43:40 *** gelignite has quit IRC 11:03:23 <andythenorth> Timberwolf how *do* you sprite so fast also? 11:03:41 <andythenorth> for Iron Horse 2 I was getting 2 trains done per calendar day (averaged) 11:03:48 <andythenorth> they're 8bpp and mostly copy-paste :P 11:05:48 <Timberwolf> Cheating. https://i.imgur.com/F09nmEP.png 11:06:00 <andythenorth> voxels? 11:06:07 <Timberwolf> I build everything in MagicaVoxel, then I have a bunch of stuff which renders them to sprites. 11:06:33 <Timberwolf> It does have some quality issues and the 8bpp 1x stuff is definitely way worse than hand-drawn. 11:06:37 <andythenorth> makes sense 11:06:46 <andythenorth> the 2x stuff looks great though 11:06:54 <Timberwolf> Thanks :) 11:07:03 <andythenorth> at 8bpp, I'm not really drawing the train, I'm drawing an impression of the train 11:07:14 <andythenorth> 1x / 8bpp /s 11:07:23 *** Darkvater has joined #openttd 11:07:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Darkvater 11:07:27 <Timberwolf> I have been wondering how many outputs I'd need to correct manually to train a neural net to do it. 11:08:16 <andythenorth> from source images? 11:08:28 <Timberwolf> Not quite that ambitious :) 11:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there's some fun AI research papers on which subset of images you need to show to a human to tell the AI they're good/bad 11:08:57 <andythenorth> afaik, we're pretty good now at getting 3D shapes from photos? 11:09:03 <Timberwolf> Just taking the voxel renderer output and correcting things like company colours bleeding into the wrong place, etc. 11:09:07 <andythenorth> I don't know that for a fact mind :P 11:09:26 <andythenorth> you should teach it the common artefacts of a train gestalt 11:09:31 <andythenorth> windows, wheels, doors etc 11:09:32 <andythenorth> :P 11:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the point of the exercise is to find "dead end" AI behaviours where they think they figured it out, but it's some pathologic case that happens to be true for only a small subset of the problem 11:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> say, if you wan to train an AI to flip a pancake in a pan. and you divide that into the first problem of "just balance the pan so the pancake stays off the floor as long as possible. the AI might decide that the optimal strategy is to fling it as high as possible, as that maximises the time it takes to hit the floor 11:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if you take sporadic screenshots of the AI doing its thing, and ask a human to judge whether the thing looks good or not, you can catch such "wrong" paths 11:36:53 <CornsMcGowan[m]> Eddi|zuHause: ive been pushing commits but it still has stale tag 11:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like the tag has any real meaning anyway 11:38:21 <LordAro> CornsMcGowan[m]: it's a tag 11:38:26 <LordAro> there's nothing automatic about it 11:40:33 <CornsMcGowan[m]> andythenorth: Yeah photogrammetry works really well nowadays, but needs much higher resolutions than x1 sprites 11:40:50 <CornsMcGowan[m]> LordAro: ah i see 11:44:25 <CornsMcGowan[m]> re: bridges over bridges, is there any value that corresponds to the height of the upper part of the bridge? eg viaducts are short, girder is taller, suspension bridge is very tall 11:44:55 <LordAro> nope 11:45:02 <CornsMcGowan[m]> heck 11:45:34 <CornsMcGowan[m]> time to bake some in i guess 12:09:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP) https://git.io/fjB7y 12:32:20 <andythenorth> lol https://andrew350.users.tt-forums.net/projects/belts.php 12:32:23 <andythenorth> that happened then :) 12:33:13 <LordAro> :D 12:35:04 <andythenorth> so good 12:35:08 <andythenorth> haven't tried it in game 12:41:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP) https://git.io/fjB7y 12:42:51 <andythenorth> can approve? o_O https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/pull/159 12:47:21 <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats the go with reviving closed PRs? 12:47:34 <CornsMcGowan[m]> e.g. i'm interested in this feature being pushed to trunk https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7078 12:48:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> if aqueducts are indeed similar to tunnels then i think they should exhibit the same terraforming behaviours 12:48:15 <andythenorth> depends if it was closed as rejected, or closed due to the draining away of interest 12:48:24 <andythenorth> PRs for the second case can be re-opened 12:48:24 <CornsMcGowan[m]> closed from lack of interest it seems 12:48:28 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah okay 12:48:33 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i will put my case forwards 12:48:35 <andythenorth> but it might well be cleaner to do do another new PR 12:49:03 <andythenorth> yeah I'd be prepared to re-open that one 12:49:30 <andythenorth> but if your solution isn't as per the original title, you might just want a new one 12:50:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One commented on pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts https://git.io/JJLLx 12:55:23 <andythenorth> ok I can't actually re-open it, button is disabled in GH 12:55:29 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh lmao 12:55:33 <andythenorth> probably because the underlying branch has changed 12:56:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7078: Feature: Raise a corner of land automatically when building aqueducts https://git.io/JJLtu 12:56:09 <CornsMcGowan[m]> seems to be just a single commit 13:05:03 <CornsMcGowan[m]> last time i asked lordaro to reopen a PR, i needed to push a new commit to it first 13:05:07 <CornsMcGowan[m]> that might be what's needed 13:05:19 <LordAro> you needed to push the *original* commit to it 13:05:28 <LordAro> if a branch has been force pushed to, it can't be reopened 13:05:40 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh? 13:05:40 <LordAro> (as far as github is concerned it's a new branch) 13:05:45 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i see 13:08:45 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man 13:08:57 <CornsMcGowan[m]> samuxarick PR'ed like a billion features/changes/fixes 13:09:54 <andythenorth> yes 13:09:59 <andythenorth> quite a lot got closed 13:10:27 <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah i don't see a single one accepted 13:10:29 <CornsMcGowan[m]> unlucky :c 13:10:29 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Still hoping for someone to approve #150, then we can release without known bugs :p 13:12:17 <CornsMcGowan[m]> actually i have no way of telling if the branch PR was accepted 13:13:22 <LordAro> CornsMcGowan[m]: samu is quite good at finding issues, not so good at fixing them 13:13:36 <LordAro> not in the "correct" way, anyway 13:13:47 <LordAro> tends to miss the bigger picture 13:13:48 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh? 13:14:21 <FLHerne> ISTR one or two of those did get merged, and turned out to cause regressions... 13:14:46 <LordAro> there's been a few 13:15:02 <LordAro> merged 13:25:12 <milek7> @seen Samu 13:25:12 <DorpsGek> milek7: Samu was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 2 hours, 12 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Samu> '.gitignore' 13:25:37 <CornsMcGowan[m]> whats a regression in this context 13:25:43 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh nvm just googled it 13:25:48 <LordAro> other bugs 13:26:03 <CornsMcGowan[m]> so its a bug fix that causes more bugs 13:26:11 <LordAro> usually 13:26:13 <CornsMcGowan[m]> or bugs caused by the introduction of a bug fix 13:26:21 <LordAro> yeah 13:26:28 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah i see 13:26:30 <LordAro> (we also have the regression AI tests) 13:26:44 <LordAro> which try to test for other unforeseen changes) 13:27:45 <CornsMcGowan[m]> spooky 13:29:23 <andythenorth> "#1 cause of software bugs is software changes" 13:29:31 * andythenorth abuses a google SRE statistic a bit 13:29:52 <CornsMcGowan[m]> hm 13:32:45 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 13:34:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> time to find that one line that enables bridges over bridges 13:36:46 <CornsMcGowan[m]> also: have underground canals ever been considered? 13:37:03 <andythenorth> yes 13:37:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah 13:37:13 <CornsMcGowan[m]> rejected 13:37:14 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ? 13:37:15 <andythenorth> you mean tunnels? 13:37:16 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stad_Ship_Tunnel 13:37:22 <CornsMcGowan[m]> yeah tunnels 13:37:25 <CornsMcGowan[m]> had a brainfart :p 13:37:33 <andythenorth> visual clipping issue with most ships 13:37:40 <LordAro> can't make it work without horrendous clip- 13:37:41 <andythenorth> but then again 13:37:50 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh i see 13:37:54 <andythenorth> tyler has just done a canal boats grf 13:37:58 <andythenorth> not sure if it's NRT or not 13:38:05 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh the little tiny boats 13:38:11 <andythenorth> might be roads 13:38:27 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=87219 13:39:09 <andythenorth> hmm 13:39:21 <andythenorth> if boats are done as road vehicles, they can be articulated 13:39:33 <CornsMcGowan[m]> boats as road vehicles... 13:39:37 <andythenorth> WWAY 13:39:42 <andythenorth> it's an NRT grf 13:39:51 <CornsMcGowan[m]> wowee 13:40:02 <andythenorth> there's also WETrail for ships as trains 13:40:38 <andythenorth> using the canal cheat, they can be routed 'across' water 13:40:51 <andythenorth> cheat / hax /s 13:42:14 <CornsMcGowan[m]> canal cheat :o 13:43:53 <andythenorth> I guess it's not really a cheat, just an artefact 13:44:15 <CornsMcGowan[m]> are canals just secretly all 6 rail directions overlaid 13:56:36 <CornsMcGowan[m]> <CornsMcGowan[m] "time to find that one line that "> found it 13:56:43 <CornsMcGowan[m]> lets see how glitchy this looks 13:57:30 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:57:30 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 14:00:28 <CornsMcGowan[m]> nvm failed an assert when i tried to build 14:03:51 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 14:04:04 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 14:04:32 *** trooper has joined #openttd 14:08:15 *** trooper is now known as trooperz 14:09:03 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 14:09:16 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 14:23:30 *** trooperz has quit IRC 14:30:38 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh so some info about bridges is stored in the map data 14:30:58 <CornsMcGowan[m]> but is designed such that only one bridge can exist per tile 14:32:33 <LordAro> you're saying the system wasn't designed for more than one bridge? 14:32:35 <LordAro> i am SHOCKED 14:32:41 <CornsMcGowan[m]> lmao 14:32:48 <CornsMcGowan[m]> the game was rigged from the start 14:33:59 <CornsMcGowan[m]> how are tunnels stored, then 14:34:15 <LordAro> much the same, i belive 14:34:23 <LordAro> they're both fairly magic about it 14:35:31 <CornsMcGowan[m]> i wonder if tunnels over tunnels were permitted in TTD 14:36:11 <LordAro> they're permitted in OTTD, if you turn the cheat on 14:36:28 <LordAro> hmm, i guess not the same then 14:37:46 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh i just mean like, at different height (z?) levels 14:38:19 <LordAro> good question 14:39:42 <CornsMcGowan[m]> tunnel_map.h shows tunnels are stored in m5, m6, m8 i think 14:39:46 <FLHerne> CornsMcGowan[m]: Yes 14:40:14 <CornsMcGowan[m]> FLHerne: re: tunnels over tunels in TTD? 14:40:26 <FLHerne> CornsMcGowan[m]: Yes 14:40:45 <FLHerne> Sorry, didn't scroll all the way down - re > are canals just secretly all 6 rail directions overlaid? 14:40:52 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah sweet 14:41:05 <FLHerne> (which is why the ship pathfinder is so damn slow) 14:41:43 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh man 14:42:00 <CornsMcGowan[m]> now i want to see the YAPF code 14:42:12 <LordAro> there be dragons 14:42:12 <CornsMcGowan[m]> but the paths are cached now right 14:42:25 <LordAro> yeah 14:42:33 <LordAro> (those come with a different set of problems, of course) 14:45:48 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah i see 14:46:05 <CornsMcGowan[m]> okay i'm not focused enough to decipher yapf_ship.cpp 14:46:11 <CornsMcGowan[m]> even though i've implemented A* before 14:47:58 <LordAro> it's ok, A* isn't in there 14:48:12 <CornsMcGowan[m]> wait 14:48:13 <LordAro> i guarantee it's like no other A* you've seen before 14:48:19 <CornsMcGowan[m]> it's non-heuristic? 14:48:55 <LordAro> i imagine ships probably use manhatten distance 14:49:58 <FLHerne> I'm not sure that's true 14:50:01 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh shouldn't they use DistanceMax instead 14:52:12 <LordAro> (disclaimer: i know very little about YAPF, other than it uses A* internally *somewhere*, and that it's template hell) 14:52:36 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ah 14:52:42 <CornsMcGowan[m]> ive heard of C++ templates before 14:52:47 <CornsMcGowan[m]> never learnt about them 14:54:21 <CornsMcGowan[m]> also yeah it uses a heuristic, tries to get as close as possible to the uh 14:55:38 <CornsMcGowan[m]> imo its needlessly accurate 14:59:21 *** trooper has joined #openttd 14:59:47 <trooper> hi 15:00:22 <trooper> is it ok not to release sources with grf under GPLv2? 15:00:40 <andythenorth> on request, or distributed with the grf? 15:01:17 <andythenorth> FSF has FAQs about this 15:01:23 <CornsMcGowan[m]> oh do you mean release grf as GPLv2 and then withhold the source? 15:02:04 <trooper> yes 15:02:11 <trooper> I asked for sources on the forum 15:02:31 <trooper> but people there say that it is ok not to release them 15:02:53 <LordAro> you don't technically have to actively release them, but you must provide them when requested 15:03:14 <andythenorth> the FAQs are all here https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.en.html 15:03:16 <andythenorth> search 'source' 15:03:26 <andythenorth> it's mostly clear 15:03:31 <andythenorth> there is one ambiguity 15:03:35 <trooper> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=76558&start=520 15:03:44 <andythenorth> all of the examples are about modifications to GPL licensed works 15:03:50 <nielsm> basically you have to at least include instructions on how to obtain the source and ensure anyone who wants the source can get it 15:04:01 <andythenorth> I didn't find anything about original authors being obliged to provide sources 15:04:05 <andythenorth> I'm sure that's covered somewhere 15:04:09 <trooper> can I ask them to provide sources of the set? 15:04:14 <andythenorth> you can and you did 15:04:57 <trooper> all the licencing mentioned with grfs releases is a bullshit ? 15:05:03 <trooper> all the licensing mentioned with grfs releases is a bullshit ? 15:06:19 <LordAro> well that's a full blown license dispute now 15:06:28 <nielsm> if they claim to be releasing the work under GPLv2 but refuse to give you the complete sources then they are not honouring their own license 15:06:57 <nielsm> they basically offered you the usage rights under false pretense 15:07:01 <andythenorth> oh there was more argument in the thread? 15:07:03 <andythenorth> I missed that 15:07:17 <LordAro> andythenorth: i just kept scrolling 15:07:30 <LordAro> dunno if there's anything previous 15:07:31 <trooper> check the last page 15:07:32 <andythenorth> I read it this morning, it has changed :P 15:08:14 <LordAro> i don't know if an author can retroactively change the license of something 15:08:16 <LordAro> i would guess not 15:08:21 <trooper> I'm just new to the community, I started my server about a week ago 15:08:50 <andythenorth> if I've understood correctly, they've invalidly licensed as GPL v2 15:08:55 <trooper> I never thought that it is legal not to release the sources covered by GPL 15:09:16 <trooper> I don't know 15:09:26 <trooper> they just don't provide sources by request 15:09:31 <andythenorth> if it was a valid GPL v2 license they would need to provide the sources 15:09:38 <andythenorth> but the GPL v2 is invalid 15:09:48 <andythenorth> as they don't have copyright permissions to apply GPL v2 15:09:58 <andythenorth> GPL is based on copyright, even though it's copyleft 15:10:00 <trooper> so do you mean that all licensing on banana is a bullshit? 15:10:08 <andythenorth> that is a big claim to be honest 15:10:17 <andythenorth> I don't understand how you escalate to that statement 15:10:25 <trooper> wait 15:10:31 <trooper> I just asked for a source 15:10:42 <trooper> I don't want to use it just examine 15:11:01 <nielsm> if they claim the GRF is GPLv2 licensed then you are in your right to demand the sources 15:11:07 <trooper> banana site says the set is licensed under GPLv2 15:11:17 <andythenorth> their license sounds like it's illegal 15:11:26 <andythenorth> you can't just steal things and GPL them 15:11:30 <andythenorth> that's not how it works 15:11:30 <trooper> community says that I can't ask for the sources 15:11:43 <trooper> I mean on that forum 15:11:44 <trooper> not here 15:11:46 <andythenorth> don't confuse 'community' with one dude in a thread 15:11:53 <andythenorth> that's such a fallacy 15:12:03 <trooper> ya ok 15:12:05 <andythenorth> dude / dudette / whatever / person 15:12:10 <nielsm> <andythenorth> you can't just steal things and GPL them <-- but let's not consider whether reverse-engineering a commercial product is stealing sources 15:12:30 <andythenorth> 'apparently it's ok in Germany' or something nielsm 15:12:40 <andythenorth> but anyway, distractions :P 15:12:52 <andythenorth> it looks to me like CZ set have made a silly mistake 15:13:53 <trooper> lol I just wanted to translate the road set and I don't wont to dig into nfo.... 15:14:17 <nielsm> are you turning this into an X/Y problem now? :) 15:14:33 <nielsm> if you want to translate then start out by offering that instead of asking for sources 15:15:35 <trooper> I don't want to wait for them to release a new version I'll do a hot fix in a new grw and send them a patch 15:15:43 <trooper> that is a usual way for opensource 15:16:13 <trooper> I did that for xUSSR set 15:17:19 <trooper> https://github.com/landofcash/xussr-ottd-fix like this 15:17:47 <trooper> not sure why they refuse to provide nml 15:18:54 <glx> you can always use grfcodec to get NFO from GRF, but it's harder to read 15:19:31 <trooper> yep I did that and yes it is harder to read and I can't send them a patch 15:36:26 <Timberwolf> I'm never quite sure what you class as "source code" for a grf. In theory could you comply just by providing NML/NFO and PNG files? 15:37:43 <nielsm> if the development of the art involves 3D models that get rendered, and are not manually edited after rendering, then the 3D models would be the source 15:38:57 <nielsm> but GPL is very focused on software source code and is difficult to apply to other things 15:39:24 <Timberwolf> I think if you got as far as court you'd end up with a lot of arguining about 'The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.' 15:39:47 <nielsm> yeah 15:44:54 <trooper> at least it is the code they send to nml compiler 15:46:45 <andythenorth> the source is what is reasonably needed to build the project in a sensible workflow 15:46:55 <andythenorth> because GPL doesn't cover art assets, it would be a bunfight about those 15:47:14 <andythenorth> we've discussed it before, and 3D models would seem to be in scope 15:48:01 <andythenorth> but if those 3D models are on an incompatible public license (e.g. Creative Commons), there would be some caveats 15:53:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 15:53:08 <trooper> they just refuse to provide any source even just sprites + nml 15:53:53 *** cHawk has quit IRC 15:59:03 <andythenorth> I have replied in the thread, this will get resolved 15:59:06 <andythenorth> one way or the other 16:00:53 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:04:25 <trooper> ya I can't force them to release the sources so they will just disappear for a while... 16:05:48 <nielsm> we should add a way for ottd to load external language files for grf's 16:05:59 <nielsm> somehow 16:07:49 *** b_jonas has joined #openttd 16:08:47 <b_jonas> 1395 tons of oil? I didn't know oil well production can go so high 16:11:41 <milek7> some people don't subscribe to spirit of opensource 16:11:43 <milek7> there's so much drama and wars generated about who copied what, permissions, etc.. :( 16:11:53 <milek7> (not talking about ottd specifically) 16:13:16 <milek7> trooper: most likely it never was GPL 16:13:24 <milek7> just incorrect annotation 16:15:01 <b_jonas> but the extra zeroes always make it look bigger than it is 16:17:12 <trooper> milek7 hope they will not charge $$$ for using their GRF on my server 16:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> trooper: thing is, if a thing is not legal, doesn't prevent anyone from doing it anyway 16:21:14 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 16:22:15 <trooper> ya I know I know I'll just decompile their sources 16:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> like the dude who's in charge of the police in our country, stopped a study about racial profiling because: "there can't be racial profiling because our rules of conduct forbid racial profiling" 16:23:27 <trooper> ya who cares about all these licensing bullshit 16:23:38 <trooper> just take what you can and use 16:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, people should care about it, but a bunch of them don't take it as seriously as they should 16:29:13 <andythenorth> nielsm +1 to external files 16:29:28 <andythenorth> I'm not sure I ever want random language translation PRs arriving on my machine again 16:29:38 <andythenorth> it's just one extra thing to be concerned about 16:29:52 <andythenorth> I'd rather see translations provided elsewhere 16:32:26 *** m1cr0man has quit IRC 16:35:13 <b_jonas> I'm adding second stops in some cities to my vac train lines to collect more passengers 16:41:01 <andythenorth> trooper I can't be arsed with the forum thread, as it will just descend into nitpick madness.... 16:41:17 <andythenorth> you can't make a valid GPL claim against an invalid GPL license 16:41:52 <andythenorth> if they 'licensed' illegally, the GPL is not in effect 16:45:40 <trooper> what is in effect then? 16:45:54 <trooper> can I use their GRF on my server? 16:46:00 <andythenorth> it's complete shambles 16:46:01 <trooper> or they will ask me to pay them 16:46:04 <trooper> ? 16:46:19 <trooper> they include GPL with GRF what does this mean? 16:46:32 <andythenorth> in this case, nothing, if what they say is true 16:47:11 <andythenorth> it should not be distributed as GPL if it's not valid GPL 16:47:16 <trooper> what is more true a licence.txt next to grf in a tar archive or "someone" words on the tt-forum? 16:48:21 <andythenorth> I understand the question, but it's not a useful question 16:49:13 <andythenorth> GPL is based on licence.txt being trustworthy 16:49:22 <andythenorth> but it cannot enforce that license.txt is legal 16:49:40 <andythenorth> simply adding license.txt doesn't make a thing valid GPL, that would be woo 16:50:02 <trooper> tey already signed BANANA TOS 16:50:26 <trooper> where they claim that they own all sources 16:50:54 <trooper> are you trying to say that licenses mean nothing and I can just ignore them? 16:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frankly, if they don't have a valid license, bananas should just remove their grf and be done with it 16:51:59 <andythenorth> are you wilfully misunderstanding trooper ? 16:52:05 <andythenorth> or is it lost in translation? 16:52:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I am minded the same way 16:52:44 <andythenorth> I don't know about all the bollocks around not breaking precious savegames 16:52:55 <trooper> umm removing from banana is a bad I dea 16:52:57 <trooper> umm removing from banana is a bad I dea 16:53:05 <andythenorth> TrueBrain if a grf claims to be GPL but isn't, is that a bananas takedown y|n? (sorry) 16:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't matter if they couldn't license it gpl in the first place, or violated gpl by not responding to a source code request properly (and thus voiding the GPL) 16:53:33 <andythenorth> if we're distributing illegal content, we can be DMCAed 16:53:34 <andythenorth> that's bad 16:53:47 <andythenorth> it's a pain in the arse and creates admin work 16:53:57 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:02:01 <CornsMcGowan[m]> fixed the jgrpp compile problem 17:02:08 <CornsMcGowan[m]> with newgrf_version being different 17:02:24 <CornsMcGowan[m]> by..hand editing the value in rev.cpp 17:02:59 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:05:01 <Borg> b_jonas: smooth economy on? 17:05:22 <CornsMcGowan[m]> yes 17:08:02 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 17:13:24 <dP> if I understand gpl correctly it's illegal to distribute stuff that has no available sources 17:13:40 <dP> more interesting problem is that it probably applies to half of bananas content xD 17:13:54 <andythenorth> it's not illegal to do that 17:14:06 <dP> andythenorth, "For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code" 17:14:25 <andythenorth> yeah, actually I think you're right 17:15:03 *** hryniuk has joined #openttd 17:15:39 <dP> andythenorth, that's kind of the whole point of copyleft :p 17:20:55 <trooper> ahaha lol 17:21:02 <trooper> I can't beleve my eyes 17:21:06 <b_jonas> Borg: yes, smooth economy changes is on 17:21:41 <trooper> they say You sound like we are OBLIGED to post our sources like it was MANDATORY. Quick news - we are not. 17:21:42 <andythenorth> dP what does 'has no available' mean to you? 17:21:56 <trooper> GPL Opensource ahahahaaaa muhahahah 17:22:11 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that question is difficult to answer without context; do you perceive it as not being GPL or is it clear that it violated? :) 17:22:40 <trooper> LICENCE.txt is included in tar and can be opened ingame 17:22:58 <dP> andythenorth, well, whatever it means in gpl, it allows to provide it by request iirc but I that even if you find authors for many old grf they could still find those sources xD 17:23:36 <dP> * I doubt 17:24:07 <dP> also bananas kinda have to "make sure" whatever that means :p 17:24:11 <TrueBrain> if you as author no longer have the source of GPL code, there isn't really any issue ;) 17:24:25 <TrueBrain> GPL is about if I take your source, modify it, I have to be able to hand over the source upon request 17:24:30 <andythenorth> dP do we modify the source? 17:24:40 <andythenorth> sorry, the work 17:24:42 <andythenorth> we don't modify 17:24:48 <andythenorth> (as bananas) 17:25:39 <TrueBrain> but andythenorth , why are you bring this up anyway? License discussions often only lead to weird discussions with no end, as everyone is a lawyer ;) 17:26:00 <dP> TrueBrain, well I cited gpl v2 few messages earlier, distributor of binaries have to make sure sources are available. 17:26:16 <TrueBrain> dP: and who can challenge if they don't? :D 17:26:19 <dP> TrueBrain, it may not be a real issue in case of lost source but still a violation of gpl if you ask me :p 17:26:39 <TrueBrain> violation a license the owner of that license doesn't care about, is a bit of a mute argument ;) 17:27:35 <trooper> https://gyazo.com/ab83bd8ee36f0c18e7fb577987507316 17:27:43 <TrueBrain> I wonder what a court will say about it ... "JUDGE! I want that I pay myself 20,000 euro in fines! This is not acceptable that I violated my own license!" :D 17:29:17 <TrueBrain> but as mention, all I saw was andythenorth walk to a firepit, put on some food, a jerrycan of gasoline, lit it, and walked away in silent :) 17:29:55 * Timberwolf is getting lost in the wormhole of autolitigation cases. 17:30:58 <Timberwolf> Looks like they generally get thrown out :) 17:31:18 <trooper> banana and ff-forum is really in a bad situation as they "distribute" illegal content 17:31:56 <dP> TrueBrain, well, what start of this drama is here: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1233903#p1233903 17:32:08 <TrueBrain> trooper: is that a statement, or a question? 17:32:14 <dP> TrueBrain, author of grf licensed under gpl v2 admitted the can't share sources 17:32:30 <TrueBrain> trooper: as be VERY careful, there is a HUGE difference between the license and the right to distribute 17:32:54 <TrueBrain> dP: I will read, but I am not aware the license owner has to show source :) 17:33:26 <TrueBrain> well, you would be in violation of your own license, but meh :) 17:33:34 <trooper> TrueBrain I just asked the source of GPLv2 set to make my translation 17:33:44 <trooper> and it turned into all this shit 17:34:16 <TrueBrain> trooper: that happens :) 90% of the population doesn't understand licenses, and of the remaining 10% too few give a fuck .. which is not a good state, but says a lot about how complex licenses have become :) So that is no real surprise to me, tbh 17:34:20 <TrueBrain> let me read up a bit 17:34:43 <dP> TrueBrain, yes ofc you can't force sources out of them, but main question here is about bananas 17:35:04 <TrueBrain> there you mix up license vs distribution rights :) 17:35:18 <trooper> I don't want to do any harm to bananas or ottd or other devs & authors 17:35:30 <TrueBrain> random quotes, just to give a bit of background: 17:35:36 <TrueBrain> trooper: "The problem is that you can't change the license of the content that was already released under GPLv2" <- an author can always change license 17:35:50 <TrueBrain> he is the copyright owner, he can do what-ever-the-fuck-he-wants, in basic terms :) 17:36:06 <TrueBrain> you do need permission of ALL authors btw 17:36:08 <trooper> TrueBrain to new releases 17:36:32 <dP> TrueBrain, author can change license for a new content, that doesn't make old one magically legal 17:36:38 <trooper> you can't make an free software be not free 17:36:49 <andythenorth> you can't make a not free software be free 17:36:53 <TrueBrain> dP: again, it feels like you are conflicted about license vs distribution here :) 17:36:59 *** arikover` has joined #openttd 17:37:03 <TrueBrain> but that might be my interpretation of what you say :) 17:37:20 <TrueBrain> trooper: the binary out there will remain to have its license as it; new ones can change 17:37:29 <TrueBrain> this is not bound to "releases" in the sense we normally see releases 17:37:35 <TrueBrain> which makes it a bit .. weird 17:37:36 <dP> TrueBrain, well, mb, since I don't know the difference xD but in my eyes gpl covers distribution as well 17:37:37 <trooper> andythenorth> you can't make a not free software be free --- TRUE 17:37:42 <trooper> you need a new release 17:37:49 <TrueBrain> but they can republish their grf again with another license, with no changes what so ever 17:37:59 <andythenorth> the current grf is a copyright violation, according to the thread 17:38:19 <TrueBrain> dP: what I mean is: as long as the original author uploaded the GRF, our ToS gives us permission to redistribute their files 17:38:24 <TrueBrain> this is the right to distribute they grant us 17:38:35 <TrueBrain> this from time to time breaks if people fuck up, and upload content they do not own 17:38:45 <TrueBrain> which is why we pull down files from time to time 17:38:46 <dP> TrueBrain, our tos does, but gpl doesn't 17:39:02 <andythenorth> GPL is actually irrelevant to the bananas question 17:39:11 <TrueBrain> our ToS gives us right to distribute; it superseeds any license, if it even mentions it 17:39:26 <TrueBrain> the other content we pull down, is if content is in clear violation of a license of someone else 17:39:40 <TrueBrain> say, you take a closed-source-DO-NOT-COPY license GRF, repack it, and upload it 17:39:46 <dP> TrueBrain, if I write a tos to give myself rights to sell windows does that make it legal? 17:39:49 <TrueBrain> we will pull that down, as you are clearly in violation of the other's license 17:40:00 <TrueBrain> dP: again, distribution rights 17:40:18 <TrueBrain> the ToS gives us a (limited) distribution license for files uploaded 17:40:28 <nielsm> GPL allows anyone to redistribute the work 17:40:48 <TrueBrain> nielsm: providing source, yes :) 17:40:50 <TrueBrain> :D 17:41:08 <TrueBrain> but what I am trying to say: BaNaNaS has little to do with the license of the uploaded content 17:41:40 <TrueBrain> the only exception being as I mentioned above, if an author challenge his use of his license on other content (which sadly enough happens) 17:41:48 <andythenorth> the only question for bananas: is this a copyright violation? 17:42:01 <TrueBrain> which only the original author can challenge, basically 17:42:04 <andythenorth> nobody has filed a request with us AFAIK 17:42:16 <andythenorth> we have evidence that it *is* a copyright violation 17:42:22 <andythenorth> but we haven't been asked to act 17:42:30 <TrueBrain> of course in most countries you have this concept of willfully distribution of illegal content 17:42:38 *** arikover has quit IRC 17:42:39 <TrueBrain> but this is not illegal content in any sense 17:43:01 <nielsm> well I suppose, for content with a copyleft license bananas ought to require the author to also upload the sources, so bananas can redistribute those as well 17:43:02 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I even disagree on that; this feels like an overreaction to people who did not understand licenses correctly 17:43:12 <TrueBrain> the best solution is for them to upload a new version with the correct license 17:43:24 <andythenorth> yes 17:43:38 <andythenorth> this is only civil law, and civil law works on the basis of remedies 17:43:40 <TrueBrain> nielsm: that is not the job of a distribution platform; but it would solve people picking wrong licenses 17:43:42 <andythenorth> there is a simple remedy here 17:43:51 <andythenorth> change the license, it was an honest mistake 17:43:58 <TrueBrain> a good addition would be to add to the web-interface a notice with these licenses: the spirit of the license is that you distribute your source code 17:45:02 <trooper> you can't change the license of the released libs 17:45:15 <TrueBrain> people make mistakes; that is part of life 17:45:19 <trooper> just delete them 17:45:28 <TrueBrain> either of two things happen: either they upload a new version with the right license, or they ragequit 17:45:28 <trooper> this is the only possible option 17:45:33 <TrueBrain> not sure if the latter benefits anyone 17:45:43 <TrueBrain> trooper: don't talk in extremes; it is pointless 17:45:49 <TrueBrain> in your opinion, it is the only possible option 17:45:55 <TrueBrain> in reality, there is a lot of grey area 17:46:03 <trooper> I used their sprites in my work 17:46:07 <trooper> what should I do? 17:46:25 <TrueBrain> well, I would debate that as long as you can supply your source, you are fine ;) 17:46:30 <TrueBrain> (as long as you base it on their old work) 17:46:44 <trooper> I need to provide sources 17:46:47 <trooper> of their work 17:46:49 <trooper> but I can't 17:47:02 <milek7> well, you probably can't use it 17:47:04 <andythenorth> you have a wide range of options 17:47:08 <trooper> lol 17:47:13 <andythenorth> you could remove their work from your work 17:47:15 <TrueBrain> milek7: I don't see why not, tbh 17:47:18 <milek7> GPL notice was mistake 17:47:19 <andythenorth> that is a remedy 17:47:29 <TrueBrain> milek7: their mistake; not trooper 's 17:47:33 <andythenorth> you could seek permissions from the original (third party) copyright holders 17:48:04 <milek7> TrueBrain: yep, but I don't think this shields against liability from original authors 17:48:05 <TrueBrain> "As you misunderstood licenses, would you mind if I still use your graphics for my own work" 17:48:07 <andythenorth> (totally unrelated to Bananas) - the CZ set have infringed on third party rights 17:48:19 <milek7> especially that he's now aware of invalid GPL notice 17:48:21 <TrueBrain> milek7: it becomes a bit thin; the issue below this issue is, what is "source" 17:48:36 <TrueBrain> milek7: but he acted in good faith up till now 17:49:19 <TrueBrain> see, in the end, we are not a court, and nobody is going to sue anyone for free OpenTTD gfx .. lets be real 17:49:26 <TrueBrain> so it is about community and working well together 17:49:33 <TrueBrain> shit happens, people make mistakes, bladiebla 17:49:37 <trooper> I agree 17:49:39 <andythenorth> talking to people is the first step 17:49:40 <TrueBrain> so this is about politeness to eachother 17:49:45 <TrueBrain> they fucked up their license, sure 17:49:52 <TrueBrain> they will fix it, fine 17:50:03 <andythenorth> the CZ group may have some personal shame now as they have to talk to their third parties 17:50:03 <TrueBrain> can trooper still use their gfx? Up to them .. but if they are reasonable, they allow you to do fine 17:50:10 <SpComb> the author pretty clearly stated that they just picked GPL v2 at random without actually knowing what it means > I put it in the uploaded GRF cause I have to write there something- I really don't care about this things 17:50:11 <TrueBrain> and your source is just their binary + your modifications 17:50:31 <TrueBrain> SpComb: ironic, as they clearly do care :) 17:50:37 <trooper> my source is sprites from their binary 17:50:44 <TrueBrain> but that is the biggest takeaway: our website needs to change to not put GPL on top, and add a warning what it implies :) 17:51:11 <andythenorth> is it a default choice, or do they have to explicitly pick? 17:51:13 * andythenorth looks 17:51:19 <TrueBrain> it is empty, you have to pick 17:51:25 <TrueBrain> first being GPL-licenses 17:51:31 <TrueBrain> at least, v1 did 17:51:32 <trooper> ok look if you change their license can I continue to use their sprites from old GRFs? 17:51:34 <TrueBrain> not sure what v1.5 does :P 17:51:45 <andythenorth> TrueBrain it's all fine 'choose a license' is default selected option 17:51:46 <andythenorth> all good 17:51:57 <TrueBrain> trooper: legally, a hard battle to fight either way; but explain to them why you did, and ask if they mind 17:52:11 <trooper> I don't want to bother them 17:52:16 <SpComb> how many GRFs are listed with " choose a license" as their license? :P 17:52:19 <TrueBrain> I think you already did ;) No offense meant :) 17:52:21 <andythenorth> trooper OpenTTD isn't where the decision can be made about that 17:52:38 <andythenorth> it's between CZ team, you, and the third parties whose copyright is infringed 17:52:55 <andythenorth> ideally have a better chat with them 17:53:20 <TrueBrain> be kind, don't be hostile, stay away from extremes, explain the situation, indicate the impact it would have on you if you cannot use them, and go from there 17:53:24 <andythenorth> use more smilies 17:53:29 <andythenorth> :P 17:53:31 <TrueBrain> smilies always help :) 17:53:32 <trooper> what I did wrong in the current chat? 17:53:50 <TrueBrain> and we all understand it is frustrating for both parties, so it is expected that initial replies are a bit cross 17:54:16 <nielsm> trooper: x/y problem. you want to translate, you attack the problem of getting the complete sources. 17:54:22 <dP> TrueBrain, I don't agree with your view on licenses but I like it since it means I can put into grf whatever I want as long as no one complains :p 17:54:29 <nielsm> yes it's a possible solution in some cases, in other cases it' 17:54:40 <nielsm> it's better to approach from a different angle 17:54:50 <TrueBrain> dP: that is literally how licenses work: you can do what ever the fuck you want until someone complains 17:55:00 <SpComb> but TBH shouldn't "No license" be a valid option? Then the uploader just needs to assert that they are the copyright holder / have permission from the copyright holder to upload and give bananas distribution rights, and then end users have... only their default rights? Which is maybe to use and not distribute? 17:55:16 <trooper> nielsm> I don't need complete sources I asked only NML file from the CZTR road set 17:55:30 <TrueBrain> SpComb: I agree that the current way licenses are implemented is weird, and roots back to the complains back in 2007 17:55:34 <trooper> I used NFO to get sprites 17:55:40 <nielsm> SpComb: not really, "no license" means nobody has right to use the content for anything 17:55:54 <nielsm> bananas is not useful for that kind of content 17:56:04 <TrueBrain> "No license" is unlawful, but asking for the license in the first place gives the wrong indication, I think 17:56:20 <andythenorth> there are some jurisdictions in which 'no license' is just not legal 17:56:28 <TrueBrain> as in: the whole of EU 17:56:29 <nielsm> the license at minimum should allow bananas to redistribute the unmodified work, and grant users the right to use the content within openttd and derived games 17:56:29 <TrueBrain> :P 17:56:38 <SpComb> yeah, I'm not sure what your default rights to redistributed content without any license is. It would be dangerous for the ToS to take any stance on that 17:56:58 <nielsm> with no license the default rights are NOTHING 17:57:06 <andythenorth> it's definitional :) 17:57:14 <TrueBrain> the default "no license" could be defined as: only the other has a license, yes :) 17:57:18 <nielsm> if you don't have a license to a work then you are not entitled to do anything with it 17:57:18 <andythenorth> so we all agree on that at least? o_O 17:57:23 <nielsm> neither use, enjoy, or share 17:57:30 <SpComb> I wonder 17:57:43 <andythenorth> I was a big fan of the WTFPL 17:57:46 <TrueBrain> and it starts with the unclarity of the word "license" 17:57:47 <andythenorth> just not safe for my kids 17:57:47 <SpComb> what kind of license does a book come with that allows me to read it? 17:58:05 <andythenorth> SpComb go in the library and photocopy it 17:58:07 <andythenorth> you'll find out 17:58:39 <SpComb> stepping firmly into the realm of bad software copyright analogies :P 17:58:48 <andythenorth> best avoided 17:58:54 <andythenorth> software license is software license 17:58:59 <andythenorth> I would like to see a test case for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL 17:59:03 <andythenorth> would be interesting 17:59:13 <milek7> actually, I think photocopying books in library is fine? depends on jurdistriction probably 17:59:28 <TrueBrain> milek7: it depends on your intent, in most countries :) 17:59:36 <andythenorth> yes, I just assume SpComb is in UK like me :P 18:02:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Hexus-One updated pull request #7607: Feature: Rail/Road/Tram/Canal-Planner (WIP) https://git.io/fjB7y 18:02:48 <TrueBrain> dP: and just to be clear on the license vs distribution: basically, our ToS adds, on top of your normal license, a specific-for-OpenTTD distribution license. The word license becomes icky here, as it means many things :P But even if you upload a custom license that says: NOBODY CAN TOUCH THIS, we can still bring it to your client, as you gave us a license for it :) 18:03:54 <milek7> trooper: keep in mind that you need to make them feel safe, that you won't download source and run away of it :P 18:03:56 <milek7> probably root of this problem is that content from trainsim community usually is heavily restricted ("all rights reserved, don't redistribute, use only in simulator X, don't modify, don't look at it wrong, contact me for permission to do anything with it") 18:04:31 <TrueBrain> dP: so if you make a ToS that gives you the rights to sell Windows and get Microsoft to sign it, yes, I am pretty sure you can sell Windows :) 18:04:33 <trooper> ya I'll take their sources and create a new game and sell it for 100000$$$$$ 18:04:35 <milek7> they might fear that it leaks somewhere and they would lose access to their upstream 18:04:53 <dP> TrueBrain, ah, I think I get what you mean, since it's supposedly the author of grf who uploads it he can grant additional rights. 18:05:03 <TrueBrain> dP: that I tried to say, yes ;) 18:05:06 <TrueBrain> clearly I failed :) :D 18:05:22 <TrueBrain> this is why it is important to us that the original author uploads the content, and why we kick content that is not uploaded by the original author 18:05:39 <TrueBrain> you give us a distribution license for your content 18:05:48 <TrueBrain> (but ONLY distribution license, and even there a very specific one) 18:06:07 <TrueBrain> so license issues are still between who-ever violated them and the owner 18:06:25 <TrueBrain> otherwise BaNaNaS cannot operate; we cannot validate every license like this :) 18:06:47 <TrueBrain> (and every distribution platform works like this btw :P It is the reason YouTube can exist!) 18:09:27 <andythenorth> contract law 18:09:31 * andythenorth making dinner oops 18:10:11 <TrueBrain> well, fun fact, I figured this out when we were asking to get a license for the original gfx of OpenTTD! We assumed Atari had the license, but they only had a distribution license :) 18:10:40 <TrueBrain> meaning they could not give us a license to distribute the original graphics :( 18:11:12 <TrueBrain> they have, however, given some companies the right to use them for specific events etc :) 18:12:30 <andythenorth> are the originals orphaned somewhere legally? 18:12:35 * andythenorth has always wondered about just buying them 18:13:36 <milek7> probably not orphaned 18:13:38 <milek7> http://www.transporttycoon.com/ 18:13:49 <TrueBrain> trooper: word of the wise, you are still not reading what the author of the grf is asking you. You ask for something, but you don't listen to him. He is asking why you want to use it for. Start a dialog, which is more than asking for things. Explain what you want to do with it, what great thing you are building on top of their work, make them happy and proud to be part of that. It is more likely people want to help you if you position yourself 18:13:49 <TrueBrain> that way :) 18:14:20 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: for over 15 years I don't know of any legal way to buy TT(D) except for ebay / .. in the original box 18:14:23 <andythenorth> milek7 they're not the original art assets though 18:15:03 <TrueBrain> there have been online places you can "buy" TT(D), which never has found to be legal 18:16:41 <trooper> TrueBrain> it is useless just a waste of the time 18:16:57 <trooper> ottd community is ruined 18:17:01 <milek7> 31X Ltd was formed by Chris Sawyer in 2010 to develop TRANSPORT TYCOON for the new generation of social and mobile platforms. [..] In 2010, Chris had the opportunity of reverting the MicroProse license and decided that this would be the perfect time to re-design and master his classic game for mobiles and tablets so that it could be enjoyed both by its huge number of fans and a new generation of players. 18:17:11 <andythenorth> again, you escalate from 0-100 in no time trooper 18:17:17 <andythenorth> please, try not to :) 18:17:39 <TrueBrain> it seems he keeps forgetting the words "to me" and "in my opinion" :D 18:17:56 <trooper> it is not me who released something under GPLv2 and refusing to provide sources 18:18:14 <andythenorth> trooper ever in your life have you made a mistake? 18:18:19 <andythenorth> if not, I send you gold medal 18:18:22 <andythenorth> literal gold 18:18:25 <milek7> don't assume bad faith, it was never GPL, just wrong annotation 18:18:26 <andythenorth> pls give me your address 18:18:56 <nielsm> trooper: who is violating whose license? 18:18:57 <TrueBrain> milek7: yeah, we also have a very strong letter from the lawyer of CS :D 18:19:14 <TrueBrain> also a nice letter of the music artist of TT(D) 18:20:04 <trooper> nielsm> I just don't want to steal their work 18:20:10 <trooper> and lie like they do 18:20:21 <trooper> so I'm asking for sources according to GPL 18:20:22 <andythenorth> also V4530000 made friends with the original graphics artist 18:20:27 <andythenorth> who supports is 18:20:29 <andythenorth> us * 18:20:30 <trooper> I can decompile NFO and use it 18:20:35 <trooper> but I don't do this 18:20:43 <trooper> I respect the other authors rights 18:20:47 <andythenorth> you can't ask for sources under the GPL as I explained 18:20:48 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: his letter was like: I wouldn't mind, but I don't hold the license, so sorrrrrryyyyyyyy 18:20:51 <TrueBrain> (paraphrased) 18:20:51 <andythenorth> the GPL does not apply 18:21:09 <andythenorth> but that is between you and CZ and their third parties 18:21:19 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 18:21:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 18:21:29 <nielsm> trooper: try asking this question instead: I would like to help you by making translations of your project. Will you let me have access to your project so I can keep up with your work and keep the translations up-to-date? 18:21:36 <nielsm> wording is important 18:21:45 <nielsm> this isn't about law or semantics, it's about human relations 18:21:48 <nielsm> first and foremost 18:21:53 <trooper> https://gyazo.com/ab83bd8ee36f0c18e7fb577987507316 18:22:42 <trooper> ok nm I'll decompile, wasting to much time on this bullshit 18:22:45 <andythenorth> trooper you're confused about what bananas is 18:23:47 <trooper> what all these licenses on banana mean? 18:23:54 <trooper> all of them are bullshit 18:23:55 <milek7> TrueBrain: >and every distribution platform works like this btw :P 18:23:59 <milek7> though that might change with that silly directive digital single market article 17, no? 18:24:13 <TrueBrain> milek7: you talk about that weird country called "USA"? 18:24:23 <milek7> no, EU 18:24:25 <dP> are there any working irc logs? i've no idea where i got disconnected %) 18:24:42 <TrueBrain> milek7: ah :) Don't know :) I know the US was trying to get that part kinda different :P 18:24:46 <andythenorth> trooper again 0-100 18:24:48 <nielsm> dP: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd 18:24:58 <andythenorth> you go from 'one grf has wrong license' to 'all of bananas is bullshit' 18:25:01 <andythenorth> please stop 18:25:06 <TrueBrain> milek7: linky? Curious now :) 18:25:07 <andythenorth> you'll probably just get kicked 18:25:08 <dP> nielsm, yeah, I used that but it stops few hours ago 18:25:13 <milek7> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_Digital_Single_Market#Draft_Article_13_(Directive_Article_17) 18:25:24 <nielsm> dP: it's fully updated for me 18:25:31 <milek7> non-commercial are excepted, but still, I don't like it 18:25:39 <TrueBrain> milek7: ah, that bull 18:25:45 <milek7> These conditions are an implementation of "effective and proportionate measures", as claimed by service providers, to "prevent the availability of specific [unlicensed] works identified by rightsholders", acting "expeditiously" to remove them, and demonstrating that "best efforts" have been made to prevent their future availability. 18:26:40 <trooper> Ok i'll take their sources recompile and put on bananas under my name including sprites 18:26:45 <TrueBrain> well, we do "best effort" too :) 18:26:56 <andythenorth> trooper then you'll probably get removed for copyright violation 18:27:20 <trooper> thy can't provide copyright 18:27:41 <andythenorth> CZ team has violated copyright 18:27:43 <nielsm> trooper: send a nicely worded question in private message to the people authoring the CZ set, it's useless asking anyone here about it 18:27:46 <andythenorth> you doing it too doesn't help the case 18:27:48 <andythenorth> just talk to them 18:28:00 <dP> nielsm, weird, to me it just stops randomly mid-page 18:28:08 <TrueBrain> dP: hard reload? 18:28:13 <andythenorth> nobody at OpenTTD has any remedy except to advise you to talk 18:28:18 *** tokai has quit IRC 18:28:55 <TrueBrain> dP: but in all fairness, it stops midsenttence here too :) 18:29:06 <TrueBrain> hard reload did fix it :o 18:29:11 <TrueBrain> page was empty too for a few tries 18:29:12 <dP> TrueBrain, hm, ctrl-shift-r doesn't do it, but opening through tor does %) 18:29:14 <TrueBrain> I blame my IPv6 :) 18:30:19 <trooper> andythenorth> I tried, but now I don't want to talk to them, I'll use compiled NFO, I just want to see a reasonable reaction from community on GPL violation 18:30:32 <andythenorth> it's not a GPL violation 18:30:34 <trooper> anyway thank you 18:30:36 <andythenorth> it's a copyright violation 18:30:39 <nielsm> trooper: THEY are voilating THEIR OWN license? 18:30:47 <nielsm> that's not possible 18:30:48 <TrueBrain> lets play the game: guess the age of trooper ; I am voting for 12 18:30:48 <trooper> nielsm> yes 18:30:52 <nielsm> they are the copyright holders 18:30:58 <nielsm> they can do whatever they want 18:31:03 <nielsm> they hold the original rights 18:31:08 <andythenorth> no they don't 18:31:16 <trooper> ok bye bye thank you for help 18:31:18 <andythenorth> they've licensed some stuff from 3rd parties 18:31:20 *** trooper has left #openttd 18:31:36 <TrueBrain> if he hadn't left, it wouldn't be long before he was forcefully left .. 18:32:01 <TrueBrain> well, that was not an english sentence, but what-ever 18:33:17 <andythenorth> it probably was 18:33:22 <dP> TrueBrain, ok, so to continue, doesn't bananas gives users rights to request source code by distributing gpl content? what allowes it to immediately violate them? 18:33:24 <andythenorth> most things sentences are English 18:33:40 <TrueBrain> dP: that license is between owner and user 18:33:56 <TrueBrain> it is not for the distribution platform to supply that stream of information 18:34:00 <TrueBrain> it is to mediate between btw 18:34:08 <andythenorth> two meanings of 'distribute' ? 18:34:14 <andythenorth> we are just a conduit in this case 18:34:20 <andythenorth> we haven't modified the work 18:34:33 <andythenorth> we aren't causing a modified version to be transmitted to others 18:34:44 <andythenorth> we are just the post office (to use terrible analogy) 18:34:52 <TrueBrain> dP: we do have due diligence, so that is why I asked if they are asked to upload a new version with the correct license, btw 18:35:41 <TrueBrain> what to me is interesting to figure out, is if anyone else but the copyright holder can complain about a license infringement 18:36:01 <dP> TrueBrain, hm, doesn't sound very convincing ... what's the license between user and bananas then? 18:36:18 <TrueBrain> as far as I am aware, none :P 18:36:25 <andythenorth> dP try it this way 18:36:33 <andythenorth> how does bananas make us an author? 18:36:39 <TrueBrain> do you sign a license anywhere when you download content? :) 18:37:11 <andythenorth> GPL is very simple 18:37:17 * andythenorth spent a lot of time on it :P 18:37:24 <TrueBrain> owh boy, here it comes :) 18:37:42 <dP> TrueBrain, well, there is tos usually 18:37:45 <andythenorth> I had such fun with it :P 18:37:51 <dP> TrueBrain, even on bananas, there is just not a word about users xD 18:38:01 <TrueBrain> there is no user ToS, no 18:38:03 <TrueBrain> just the: behave 18:38:32 <TrueBrain> but this is mainly the point: BaNaNaS has no legal right in this whole license story 18:38:47 <TrueBrain> we pick the binary as is, and give it to someone else, as a middleman 18:38:51 <andythenorth> bananas is not an author 18:39:00 <andythenorth> GPL is about author rights 18:39:04 <TrueBrain> again, we have to make sure we are doing "best effort" to prevent illegal crap 18:39:13 <TrueBrain> so if someone uploads a movie, we have to take actions, of course 18:39:22 <TrueBrain> we have to listen to DMCA requests, and all that 18:40:16 <nielsm> as I understand it, bananas distributes content to end-users on behalf of the uploaders, it's the uploader that must have the right to grant a license to download and use the content to the end-user 18:40:24 <TrueBrain> which brings to two interesting points: 1) can a copyright owner violate his own license? (I think he cannot) 2) even if he would, do we need to take action on it before the owner asks us? 18:41:06 <TrueBrain> but why I agree'd with SpComb earlier that our license question is a weird one, as most of these license we mention are more about how to deal with contribution and attribution 18:41:07 <Borg> b_jonas: then production can be up to 2048 afair 18:41:14 <TrueBrain> which, from our platform point of view, is a weird question 18:41:26 <TrueBrain> it is more for the end-user that wants to modify it, redistribute it, etc 18:41:47 <TrueBrain> so possibly we are asking the question about "license" in the wrong light 18:42:00 <Wolf01> Wtf still talking about licenses? 18:42:04 <TrueBrain> we don't ask it for BaNaNaS, as a distribution platform, but to help others that want to do anything with it 18:42:14 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: yeah, but it got a bit mature conversation; at least, I think so :) 18:42:34 <Wolf01> I hope so 18:44:23 <andythenorth> one way to think about it, 'GPL' or other license fact is metadata for a bananas content 18:44:39 <andythenorth> it's not the license we are applying to it 18:44:54 <andythenorth> it's the license the author has told us they are using 18:45:11 <TrueBrain> I guess dP's point is, how far are we responsible that it should be correct 18:45:18 <TrueBrain> till what extend are we a partner in that 18:45:20 <andythenorth> [dunno] 18:45:33 <andythenorth> depends on jurisdiction and all that bollocks 18:45:47 <TrueBrain> there is also the common-sense factor there 18:45:53 <TrueBrain> the Dutch approach: eerlijk en billijk 18:45:57 * andythenorth translates 18:46:13 <andythenorth> oic 18:46:43 <TrueBrain> but given this situation: they just made an honest mistake; as long as the copyright owner doesn't send us a request to takedown, I don't see an ethical reason we should take action (ethical being the important word here); of course I would love to know if any of you disagree on that :) 18:47:02 <andythenorth> FWIW I would have taken the CZ set down as a copyright violation, they've self-evidenced that they have done it wrong. But I'd probably regret it. 18:47:42 <TrueBrain> what is the benefit of that course of action? 18:47:43 <Wolf01> I agree, it's the author problem to check if his stuff is used elsewhere, not the platform system/owners 18:48:00 <dP> tbh, I'm just curious how it works, not rly trying to make any point xD 18:48:24 <TrueBrain> dP: yeah, so am I :) Just making sure we are on the same page here :D 18:48:40 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I have nothing. It just seems 'correct', but also too hasty. 18:48:47 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: :D 18:48:56 <andythenorth> I have no shame about being wrong :P 18:48:58 <andythenorth> happens a lot 18:49:00 <TrueBrain> dP: I guess the fact you see laws being changed around this, showing it is not an easy answer 18:49:23 <TrueBrain> but the reason distribution platforms can exist atm, is that they have very little liability 18:49:33 <TrueBrain> very low risk 18:50:00 <TrueBrain> Do I get a complain? Does it "sound" correct? Pull the content. If not, send a request for proof. Done 18:51:09 <andythenorth> oh that's why I would have pulled it, ToS violation 18:51:17 <andythenorth> but it isn't quite, on the current wording 18:51:19 <andythenorth> so fuck that :) 18:51:48 <andythenorth> "You will only upload content of which you are (one of) the original author(s)." is nicely broad :) 18:52:02 <TrueBrain> saved us in the early days 18:52:13 <TrueBrain> a handful of authors REALLY did not like BaNaNaS 18:52:17 <TrueBrain> "omg, people can download my content", vibe 18:52:27 <TrueBrain> or, what I suspect: "omg, I am not getting ad revenue" :D 18:52:38 <TrueBrain> did I say that out loud? Hmm .. maybe I shouldn't have :P 18:52:45 <andythenorth> oh dear 18:52:46 <Wolf01> I wonder who they were... (no I don't, I know who they were) 18:52:53 <andythenorth> now you are saying your thoughts TrueBrain 18:52:59 <andythenorth> where does this lead us? 18:54:02 <milek7> from what I have seen, 'omg, people can download my content' mindset is still big in trainsim communities 18:54:11 <Wolf01> Btw, break, did anybody purchase stardock utilities on steam? Do they need steam active to run or they are just distributed and kept updated with steam? 18:54:34 <TrueBrain> milek7: sounds horrible 18:55:07 *** m1cr0man has joined #openttd 18:55:14 <Wolf01> I was totally happy when I found some people downloaded my first scenario on Trainz a new era 18:55:55 <TrueBrain> one of the things I dislike about certain Minecraft plugins .. you HAVE to download them from their site, FULL of ads 18:56:10 <TrueBrain> which reminds me .. back to kappa mode 18:56:27 <Wolf01> Ads? Which ads? 18:56:28 <milek7> adf.ly etc.? :D 18:56:35 <TrueBrain> that bull, yes 18:57:47 <dP> I get minecraft but ads in openttd, seriosly? xD 18:58:10 <dP> as much as I want to somehow monetize my work around openttd I realize my best shot is probably donations xD 18:58:31 <TrueBrain> ^^ 18:58:38 <TrueBrain> still considering adding cloud save for a fee :P 18:59:21 <nielsm> let authors add a "support the author" URL to their bananas uploads 18:59:32 <nielsm> which could link to patreon or whatever 18:59:39 <TrueBrain> so many things BaNaNaS could use 18:59:54 <TrueBrain> but, the code is all there now, for anyone to pickup :) 19:00:03 <TrueBrain> the database is schemeless, so no issue upgrading! 19:01:06 <TrueBrain> typing .. hard .. schemaless 19:01:33 <dP> TrueBrain, oh, what db does it use? 19:01:39 <TrueBrain> GitHub! 19:01:40 <TrueBrain> :D 19:01:45 <dP> ah, lol 19:01:50 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/BaNaNaS 19:02:05 <andythenorth> sometimes I wish I could inject a little perspective, but I am not king, not even for a day 19:02:17 <andythenorth> elsewhere in forums, we have this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1233791#p1233791 19:02:27 <andythenorth> and a bit of trainsim license drama seems like blah blah 19:02:32 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 19:03:55 <TrueBrain> how sweet to crosspost that of that dude :) 19:04:02 <TrueBrain> otherwise: how horrible 19:04:57 <andythenorth> perspective eh 19:05:03 <andythenorth> kept me awake the other night after I read it 19:05:48 <andythenorth> already too many friends gone that way, and I'm only a bit over 40 19:05:59 * andythenorth must to play Tanks 19:06:17 <TrueBrain> and remind me not to be friends with you :P :P :P (sorry, I just had to :D) 19:06:17 <TrueBrain> <3 19:07:08 <andythenorth> TrueBrains are gonna TrueBrain 19:07:22 <TrueBrain> nah, even I noticed it was in poor taste :( 19:08:57 <andythenorth> oof :) 19:13:44 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 19:19:12 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 19:20:21 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 19:21:53 <nielsm> TrueBrain: looks like I'll have to have my bananas account migrated too 19:22:14 <TrueBrain> make a PR :D 19:22:17 <TrueBrain> :P 19:24:11 <frosch123> nielsm: is your username obvious? 19:25:20 <frosch123> one gs? 19:25:42 <nielsm> yeah just this one https://github.com/OpenTTD/BaNaNaS/tree/master/game-script/6a667330 19:25:57 <andythenorth> the lack of responses to this disappoints me :( https://andrew350.users.tt-forums.net/projects/belts.php 19:26:13 <nielsm> I can't quite figure out how to get the user id to put in the authors file 19:26:20 <supermop_Home> andythenorth hard to know where to start 19:26:26 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=87292 19:26:45 <supermop_Home> i read the post this morning 19:26:55 <supermop_Home> but then i had to do work... 19:27:29 <frosch123> nielsm: https://github.com/OpenTTD/BaNaNaS/pull/51 19:27:38 <andythenorth> probably won't work for me :) I have to play with 'full animation' off 19:27:55 <andythenorth> no palette cycles 19:28:23 <frosch123> nielsm: https://gist.github.com/frosch123/1ff4d5018fa096d32b1aba0c0f6513fa <- you use convert.py 19:29:33 <frosch123> it creates a threadpool to make a single request, it must be good :) 19:30:05 <andythenorth> did I write it? 19:31:45 <dP> I never really understood the point of conveyor belts in openttd, especially fake ones 19:31:56 <supermop_Home> what about real ones? 19:32:01 <frosch123> V would be happy 19:32:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: will you now do wetroads to ship logs downstream? 19:32:45 <dP> supermop_Home, depends, I can imagine few usecases 19:33:28 <dP> well, I guess they look cool so eyecandy is always a usecase xD 19:33:48 <andythenorth> frosch123 I might dream of it 19:34:01 <andythenorth> reality is I need to draw this https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/90/3b/ae903b414c84f881963bc997e3cb33e8.jpg 19:34:12 <supermop_Home> frosch123 I've been meaning to make a log flume for ages 19:34:12 <andythenorth> and I probably have lots of newgrf spec admin I never finished :| 19:34:27 <andythenorth> like when we release nml 0.5.3 I have to fix the wiki back to how it was 19:34:36 <andythenorth> when are we releasing 0.5.3? 19:34:38 <andythenorth> the user is angry 19:34:53 <andythenorth> dP do you never use PIPE.grf? 19:34:58 <andythenorth> it's great 19:37:04 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 19:38:37 *** hryniuk has quit IRC 19:41:04 <dP> andythenorth, no, I have it downloaded apparently but no idea how it even works 19:42:23 <andythenorth> it's weird but good 19:44:11 <andythenorth> I use it like this on long routes https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/images/PIPE.png 19:44:17 <dP> well, my pump doesn't even want to leave the depot 19:44:23 <andythenorth> sometimes I just do lolz with it https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/images/PIPE-sea.png 19:44:25 <dP> and it is very weird to even write that xD 19:44:35 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: WHERE ARE YOUR PRETTY LINKS?! 19:44:39 <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/images/PIPE_2.png 19:44:44 <andythenorth> TrueBrain yair yair 19:44:55 <andythenorth> TBH I am just amazed I can upload to S3 so easily 19:45:01 <andythenorth> just drop files in the browser window 19:45:05 <andythenorth> magical 19:45:07 <TrueBrain> you amaze me every day 19:45:50 <supermop_Home> pipe could benefit from custom depot and tunnel sprites 19:46:24 <milek7> pipe is roadtype? 19:46:30 <supermop_Home> railtype 19:46:50 <milek7> crashing fluids, then? :P 19:47:08 <supermop_Home> but would be nice if reimplemented in nrt 19:48:26 <andythenorth> it needs done in NRT 19:48:34 * andythenorth might do it in Road Hog 19:48:44 <andythenorth> but I don't know how to animate or draw it :P 19:48:45 <andythenorth> so eh 19:50:20 <dP> is there any grf that implements clouds and birds as aircrafts? 19:50:27 <dP> that I could actually use xD 19:50:58 <nielsm> heliports skinned as large trees that breed birds? 19:51:08 <andythenorth> there's an object with seagulls :P 19:51:11 <dP> nielsm, yes, and mountains for cloudss 19:51:33 <nielsm> but really, GS-controlled disaster vehicles 19:51:45 <nielsm> which could also not cause disaster but just delight 19:51:54 <dP> nielsm, or that, yes 19:53:03 <dP> nielsm, but disasters are just an idea when aircrafts can be done already :p 20:18:34 *** locdev has joined #openttd 20:21:34 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:29:32 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 20:32:43 *** Compu has joined #openttd 20:40:48 *** locdev has quit IRC 21:02:46 <b_jonas> I should now have a triple mainline going all the way to the largest oil refinery (which now produces 1500 tons per month), branching also to a double line to the city that takes all my goods, plus 3+2+4 oil refineries 21:03:32 <b_jonas> plus an all-vactrain passenger line among seven cities 21:04:18 <b_jonas> at least I hope it's triple all the way, I still have to look a bit more to find errors 21:11:27 *** Progman has quit IRC 21:12:53 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:13:14 <supermop_Home> i find that triple lines barely give you enough of a capacity increase over a regular doubled line without a lot of timetabling or luck 21:15:14 <supermop_Home> 3 tracks doesn't really give 1.5x the capacity of two tracks, but takes 1.5 times the space. 4 tracks takes twice the space but gives pretty much twice the capacity 21:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking he meant 3 lines in each direction 21:18:54 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 21:19:02 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 21:19:25 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 21:20:59 <supermop_Home> well that certainly is a lot 21:21:38 <Borg> yeah... a lot too lot ;) 21:21:57 <Borg> if I have huge capacity hub.. I spread it.... try to handle 10-12k goods production from 2x factory.. 21:22:11 <Borg> single station? nada... you need to split it... 21:22:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 21:23:02 <Borg> but :) I bet its fun to maintain such tracks... 21:23:20 <Borg> I do a lot of getto junctions. so... triple tracks would be too much to me.. 21:23:33 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:25:40 <b_jonas> oopsie, I had a train stuck in an inaccessible depots 21:26:01 <b_jonas> yes, 3 in each directions 21:26:13 <b_jonas> the hub is a roro station that I built on the weekend 21:26:33 <b_jonas> and the mainline is quite long which means junctions don't come together too much 21:26:53 <Borg> bigger map I assume? 21:26:55 <b_jonas> and the oil rigs are grouped, except for that one huge one, so the trains serve multiple smaller ones together 21:27:00 <b_jonas> it's an 512x512 map 21:27:12 <Borg> oh.. medium.. I usualy play 256x256 when I play alone.. 21:27:28 <Borg> 128x128 too smalish ;) but I might try this one... one day 21:27:38 <b_jonas> the refinery is on the north, the large oil station is in the east 21:28:33 <b_jonas> the distance between the two is approximately 430 21:29:03 <b_jonas> no, more like 440 21:29:08 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:31:02 *** Borg has quit IRC 21:33:09 *** arikover` has quit IRC 21:39:18 <supermop_Home> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_5A 21:39:24 <supermop_Home> this needs yellow on it 21:41:16 <andythenorth> photoshop 21:43:34 <Speeder_> what cargos I can't change IDs again? 21:43:44 <Speeder_> I remember if you change IDs of some cargos the game breaks down 21:45:32 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/firs/blob/v4-release-track/src/economies/steeltown.py#L4 21:47:01 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i always assuming i'm talking to a load of 12 year olds 21:47:08 <LordAro> seems i missed quite the fun 21:49:39 <andythenorth> 'fun' 21:59:59 <dP> crazy idea of the day: make a fully automated livestream that switches between servers and comments what's happening there with a synthesized voice 22:00:27 <andythenorth> would it troll? 22:01:08 <dP> sure xd 22:02:04 <Speeder_> opengrf+ nlm is confusing me a lot 22:02:17 <dP> "this player only builds 90 degrees turns, I suspect he's also a robot" 22:03:11 <Speeder_> it has this line I have no idea how it works: type_name: 0x0010; unit_name: 0x0010 + 0x20; units_of_cargo: 0x0010 + 0x40; items_of_cargo: 0x0010 + 0x60; type_abbreviation: 0x0010 + 0x80; 22:03:27 <Speeder_> wasn't these supposed to be strings? 22:07:46 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:09:27 <dP> sometimes I think it would be better if there was no "new company" button when joining server 22:10:20 <dP> a lot of players seem to use it instead of spectating 22:11:52 <dP> also complicates messaging them as, for example, I show server welcome message on join and basic gameplay info on company creation 22:12:01 <dP> when it's the same it's too much info at once 22:13:41 <dP> it's almost to a point that you can instantly see if player is experienced by the way he joins servers 22:40:49 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:15:54 *** gelignite has quit IRC 23:48:27 *** keoz has quit IRC