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00:22:43 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 01:53:38 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 02:24:07 *** debdog has joined #openttd 02:27:28 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 03:01:46 *** glx has quit IRC 04:07:00 *** urdh has quit IRC 04:19:27 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 04:45:12 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 05:57:14 *** nielsm has quit IRC 06:01:22 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:14:51 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:32:48 <Afdal> My fail-safe high-speed track merges seem to be broken lately and I can't figure out why 06:32:55 <Afdal> Fix #7159: Waiting time at red one-way signals was too short 06:33:05 <Afdal> Is it possible that this is what caused this? 06:33:52 <Afdal> Animation for context: https://files.catbox.moe/5b114s.png 06:35:05 <Afdal> This track construction used to ensure that merging trains never slowed down by "unlocking" the two-way entry signal just after a train enter the path to merge with the main track 06:35:37 <Afdal> it travels just enough tiles to clear the exit signal behind it 06:36:17 <Afdal> but now the two-way entry signal doesn't seem to be responding as fast as usual or something, and it's causing trains to slow down as they approach it 06:41:30 <Afdal> My glorious, beautiful high-speed networks are no longer high-speed ;_; 06:48:55 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 06:56:55 *** Maarten has quit IRC 06:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i've got no clue what's going on in the picture, but "wait time at red signal" is before the train gives up and reverses, that's got nothing to do with your problem 06:59:01 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:59:13 <Afdal> hmmm 06:59:14 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 06:59:40 <Afdal> isn't that animated for you? 07:00:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it is. which is part of the problem 07:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> likely what's happening is that you got into an "evil mode". if one train ever stops, then this will ripple down forever, until you stop all trains and get a fresh start 07:02:14 <Afdal> No that's definitely not what's happening here 07:02:36 <Afdal> That's a high-speed merge that normally only allows a train to enter the main track at full speed 07:03:07 <Afdal> but the merging train is being forced to brake very briefly in rare circumstances where it didn't 07:03:36 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 07:05:00 <Afdal> I thought I was going crazy because those are the same old designs I've always used 07:05:11 <Afdal> but I think something about the game itself might have changed here 07:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks like the train merging in from the stop slows down at the curve 07:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> s/stop/top/ 07:06:58 <Afdal> yeah, and it shouldn't, because that little piece of track with an exit signal is designed to "unlock" the two-way entry signal in the event that another train shows up just as the merging train has entered the merge 07:07:38 <Afdal> in effect the train entering the merge clears the exit signal and ensures the two-way entry signal stays green 07:08:17 <Afdal> but it's like the entry signal is slower than it used to be now, just slow enough to read red very briefly as the merging train enters and causing it to brake 07:08:54 <Afdal> is there like 07:09:04 <Afdal> a bypass to make old game versions read new version saves 07:09:22 <Afdal> so I can test this out 07:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how this was meant to work, but the entry signal (which can't be seen in the picture) seems to be red, because the exit signal is blocked by the "tail" of the same train, and the other exit signal is red because another train approaches from the straight 07:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so the train from the side approaches a red signal, and makes an emergency stop 1 tile ahead of the red signal 07:11:33 <Afdal> bah this is really hard to convey with words without a diagram 07:11:55 <Afdal> check out the last entry here: https://wiki.openttd.org/Priority_Merge#High-Speed_Merging 07:12:25 <Afdal> https://wiki.openttd.org/File:High-speed_merge_fix.png 07:12:27 <Afdal> that specifically 07:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not going to read that 07:13:09 <Afdal> >.> 07:13:29 <Afdal> there's an image so you don't have to <.< 07:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that image explains nothing 07:14:13 <Afdal> ~_~ 07:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like one of those clickbait thumbnails on youtube 07:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> where they took a random image and put arrows and circles in to make it seem like something conspiracy-y is going on 07:15:03 <Afdal> lol 07:15:26 <Afdal> I guess the caption is important too 07:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it's very possible the emergency brake thing has been changed since this picture was taken 07:16:38 <Afdal> Could it be that trains brake earlier before red signals than they used to? 07:17:44 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand how that ever meant to achieve the thing it says it tries to achieve 07:19:28 <Afdal> then I have failed at making that article readable -_- 07:19:52 <Afdal> maybe it's time for a rewrite 07:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a problem i've always had with the coop stuff. it's always written in a way that assumes it's the only correct way to play the game. "do this. no exlpanation, as all other things are wrong." 07:21:46 <Afdal> lol I don't even play on openttdcoop servers much :) 07:23:16 <Afdal> But isn't it nice when your trains don't need to brake? Imagine a whole network where trains never have to brake ;y 07:23:29 <Afdal> whooosh 07:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but i'd much rather have timetables to achieve that 07:24:29 * Afdal doesn't see how you can achieve that with timetables 07:24:33 <Afdal> Tell me more... 07:24:45 <Afdal> oh I guess with a low-density network timetables could do that 07:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the current way timetables are implemented you can manage that on a larger network 07:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried doing that on a maglev line i once built which had one single merge in it. (two lines A-B and A-C merging) 07:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and then i still had to halve the number of trains, or it would break occasionally 07:27:18 <Afdal> Yeah I like to -pack- my networks with trains. A super dense network that never slows down is a beautiful thing 07:32:34 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:41:36 <LordAro> but you also like to play with breakdowns turned on? you are a very unusual player :) 07:41:38 *** arikover has joined #openttd 07:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> everyone here is an "unusual" player 07:42:44 <LordAro> true dat 07:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make a list of 10 things that players "usually" do, every person you ever meet will violate at least one of those things 07:44:02 <Afdal> :3 08:03:04 <Afdal> well, I think I've figured it out 08:03:14 <Afdal> Looks like it might be a newGRF bug 08:03:52 <Afdal> this train set author might have made their trains ever so slightly larger than full-tile increments 08:04:07 <Afdal> because I can't reproduce this with base train engines 08:05:10 <Afdal> if the trains were a bit longer than they should be, that would be triggering this too 08:07:31 <LordAro> that would show up in the depot if that were the case 08:07:45 <LordAro> trains can only be made in 1/8 increments 08:08:33 <LordAro> so if they're 9/8, that would show up in the length indicator of the train 08:08:40 <Afdal> You sure? 08:08:49 <Afdal> there isn't a way to deceive that? 08:09:02 <LordAro> positive. 08:10:05 <Afdal> Well I don't know how else to explain this then 08:10:19 <Afdal> what about uh 08:10:46 <Afdal> if someone checked the train set trait for double-headed train 08:10:53 <Afdal> but didn't do something else they should have done 08:10:57 <Afdal> to correspond to that 08:11:10 <LordAro> i think you're grasping at nothing 08:11:31 <LordAro> reproduce this on a blank map, to eliminate all other variables 08:11:38 <LordAro> currently you're blaming everything except yourself 08:11:40 <Afdal> yeah I have 08:11:55 <Afdal> I made a test save and have been fiddling around with it 08:12:16 <Afdal> I'm comparing newgrf versions here and this seems to coincide with a change made to engine length 08:12:21 <Afdal> for this train set 08:13:48 <Afdal> but not length directly 08:14:11 <Afdal> the newgrf used to always display one-tile engines as two half-tile engines, and then some clever change was made to display multi-engine trains as still having a single engine, visually 08:14:21 <Afdal> This bug coincides with that change 08:15:26 <LordAro> that does sound a bit odd 08:16:07 <LordAro> i'm not sure if there's any "implicit" spacing between engines/wagons 08:17:22 <Afdal> Is there a way to download older versions of newgrfs off Bananas 08:17:37 <Afdal> I have the luxury of still having tons of old versions of this particular train set on my hard drive 08:17:45 <Afdal> but there's a few I'm missing that would be useful to test 08:17:53 <LordAro> there is not 08:18:02 <Afdal> dang 08:18:06 <LordAro> (unless you have a scenario that requires it) 08:18:15 <LordAro> (but obviously you have to have that version to create the scenario in the first place) 08:21:58 <Afdal> -Maglev freight engines are no longer dual-headed and have an articulated wagon instead. Power halved to compensate. 08:22:10 <Afdal> This sounds like a change that could have inadvertently affected train length 08:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a newgrf change? 08:44:05 <Afdal> yeah 08:44:51 <Afdal> if I could just get some transitional versions for this newgrf I could really narrow down the cause of this 08:45:04 <Afdal> but that sounds like the most likely suspect 08:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you should just check out the repo and do some bisecting, then 08:45:55 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 08:46:09 <TrueBrain> https://wiki.openttd.org/Signalisation_du_r%C3%A9seau_ferroviaire_:_agencements_complexes/Fr <- holy crap, that is a long title :) 08:46:35 <Afdal> repo? 08:47:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: the place where the source code lives and all changes are recorded 08:47:47 <Afdal> Oh for my newgrf? 08:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 08:47:53 <Afdal> I've been checkin that out 08:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so long as that repo is public, you can recreate all intermediate versions for your tests 08:51:31 *** longtomjr_ has joined #openttd 08:51:33 <Afdal> All right, I better get some sleep. Whew, what a rabbit hole 08:56:00 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:03:42 <TrueBrain> RecursionError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in comparison 09:03:42 <TrueBrain> oh-oh 09:09:14 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 09:09:27 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 09:11:15 <Afdal> Yeah, it's almost like there's an extra invisible half tile of engine at the front of the train 09:11:32 <Afdal> that explains it perfectly 09:11:52 <Afdal> okay, sleep time 09:19:46 <TrueBrain> Poor frosch, I am spamming his mailbox :) 09:19:48 *** Speeder__ has joined #openttd 09:19:57 <TrueBrain> okay, all en wiki pages parse now, as do fr, nl and pl. There are some things that needs patching up in the export, but overall, it seems this wikitextparser library does what it should be doing :) 09:20:09 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/frosch123/gollum-test-data/issues/1 for frosch to take a look at; hopefully he can fix those :) 09:20:13 <TrueBrain> but our wiki is very dirty :P 09:26:33 *** Speeder_ has quit IRC 09:49:13 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 10:23:31 *** rptr_ has joined #openttd 10:23:57 <rptr_> hey. i compiled the game intending to work on it a bit, but only the nightgfx set is working. i also have the game installed with opengfx,but can't select it in the menu. what do? 10:39:52 <LordAro> rptr_: something weird to do with searchpaths probably. where is opengfx installed, and where is nightgfx installed? 10:53:03 *** longtomjr_ has quit IRC 11:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> rptr_: how did you install it? 11:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> rptr_: if you downloaded a zip file, you need to unpack it 11:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if it is a tar file, you don't need to unpack it 11:10:00 <andythenorth> is it naptime? 11:10:11 <TrueBrain> depends; do you want lunch? 11:10:27 <andythenorth> oooo 11:10:31 <andythenorth> that is a good idea 11:10:35 * andythenorth hadn't thought of it 11:10:59 <TrueBrain> right, that is it, I am out of here. I had my one good idea, it is over now. Ciao all! 11:11:05 <andythenorth> happy day 11:11:11 <andythenorth> also my office is my kitchen 11:11:17 <andythenorth> so I don't have to go far 11:11:23 <TrueBrain> sounds like a terrible idea :P 11:18:11 <rptr_> i installed openttd + opengfx with apt-get. then i downloaded the source from git and also built that in another dir 11:18:21 <rptr_> so that i can play both the release and from master branch 11:18:56 <rptr_> (Eddi|zuHause) 11:19:03 <LordAro> i think apt-installed version has different search paths 11:19:24 <LordAro> so you'll probably need to download opengfx again (via ingame content should be fine) 11:19:28 <rptr_> ah ok. that's fine 11:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> probably /usr/share vs. /usr/local/share 11:19:43 <LordAro> search paths are often confusing 11:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably do some symlinking to help this, or building the source with various configure options that i can't explain to you 11:20:18 <rptr_> thanks. found 11:20:29 <rptr_> also the introduction screen is just an empty ocean :D 11:20:45 <rptr_> yeah i am sure there is an option for that. oh well 11:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's when it can't find the title savegame 11:33:04 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: "configure options" what is this configure of which you speak? :p 11:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. 11:34:20 *** rptr_ has quit IRC 11:44:35 <andythenorth> hmm was it lunch? 11:44:37 * andythenorth forgot 11:45:33 <LordAro> too late 11:45:35 <LordAro> try again tomorrow 11:47:03 <TrueBrain> now go take a nap instead 11:49:39 <andythenorth> oof 11:49:59 <andythenorth> I think I'm actually going to spend 10 mins trying to address the weird hiring inequality in the tech industry 11:50:02 <andythenorth> but eh 11:51:11 <andythenorth> I'm also going to eat mac + cheese 11:51:17 <andythenorth> which peter used to tell me was impossible 11:51:24 <andythenorth> as it's a non-existent food type 11:53:19 *** josef[m] has left #openttd 12:11:10 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:11:10 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 12:27:59 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 12:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which inequality? the one where fewer women are hired, or the one where fewer women apply? 12:29:58 <andythenorth> the one where employers can't find anyone to hire 12:30:05 <andythenorth> but people trying to get into the industry can't find any jobs 12:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> oh that 12:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's this "minimum 3 years work experience" thing, where nobody can get any work experience 12:35:11 <TrueBrain> and this is why every sane company should invest in "juniors" or "trainees" 12:35:24 <TrueBrain> I have seen the best people grow in a few months because they were given a chance 12:35:41 <TrueBrain> for some reason, those not in the industry are a lot more motivated :D 12:42:59 <andythenorth> we used to entirely run the business on new entrants 12:43:15 <andythenorth> but then we hit a point where we couldn't sustain the mess any more, it would have sunk us 12:43:26 <andythenorth> so we banned all trainee, placement, intern, graduate jobs 12:43:36 <andythenorth> now I might have to fix that 12:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be some middle ground :) 12:44:03 <andythenorth> it's so dull sorting out all their crap though 12:44:17 <TrueBrain> there has to be a balance, yes 12:44:25 <TrueBrain> not "all" nor "none" 12:44:33 <andythenorth> previously we've had to do stuff like find them a flat (we had one living in the office) 12:44:35 <TrueBrain> like 1/4th .. or something :P 12:44:39 <andythenorth> restructure their debts 12:44:50 <andythenorth> sort out their toxic house share situation 12:45:03 <andythenorth> help them with banking 12:45:05 <andythenorth> all that jazz 12:45:18 <andythenorth> it's very like parenting 12:45:36 <andythenorth> teach them to turn up when needed etc 12:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> can you teach me? :p 12:48:30 <andythenorth> as I am a bad teacher 12:48:37 <andythenorth> and you are probably a bad pupil 12:48:42 <andythenorth> I do not rate our chances highly 13:03:22 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 13:10:58 <TrueBrain> meh; to render wiki pages you have to inspect all images on the page 13:11:01 <TrueBrain> that is expensive :P 13:11:27 <andythenorth> oof 13:19:24 <TrueBrain> owh, I think I can avoid it .. pfew :D 13:19:29 <TrueBrain> it is just mediawiki being weird 13:33:23 <Timberwolf> I find this really hard, even at the "entrant" level you're already fighting several years of inequality between "my parents bought me a computer and were happy with me messing about on it all day" vs. "I had to go to the library for computer access and my parents told me computers weren't for my gender/ethnicity/whatever" 13:34:36 * Timberwolf found with juniors you could get very far as long as you had at least one "team parent" they worked closely with. 13:35:25 <TrueBrain> coaching is key; but that holds for any position, even MDs :) 13:35:31 <andythenorth> pfff 13:35:38 <andythenorth> I don't have coaching 13:35:42 <TrueBrain> it shows :P 13:35:43 <andythenorth> I have shareholders :| 13:35:44 <TrueBrain> >:D 13:35:50 <TrueBrain> this was too easy :P 13:36:24 <TrueBrain> any job is 10 times harder if nobody is helping you out; but mind you, this doesn't have to be someone in the company 13:36:34 <andythenorth> I did have coaching once, we disagreed 13:36:53 <TrueBrain> coaching is a loaded term; someone with who you can talk shit over and can guide you to possible solutions :) 13:37:10 <Timberwolf> I think a big part is not trying to over-control it. We used to go with the approach of, "here is the problem, this is where you can go to find information, these are the people you can ask for help". 13:37:18 <TrueBrain> something a manager told me a few years ago .. what-ever you do, always make sure you can call someone up and say: help! 13:37:49 <andythenorth> I think we'd need to screen candidates for expectations 13:38:03 <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: it is a difficult line to walk .. not enough helping, and they spend days of doing the complete wrong thing .. too much helping, and they never learn 13:38:03 <Timberwolf> That got much better results than the sort of "you are internship level A, you can work on these training exercises until you reach level B, where we will give you some simple pre-approved tasks and instructions how you should solve them" 13:38:06 <andythenorth> the reality of product engineering is that the time is spent like this: 13:38:09 <TrueBrain> it is like a toddler :) 13:38:12 <andythenorth> 30% making the build work 13:38:18 <andythenorth> 30% answering infosec questions 13:38:27 <andythenorth> 30% in essential meetings with the rest of the company 13:38:38 <andythenorth> 3% writing code 13:38:44 <TrueBrain> you want people that are 90% efficient? That ... is a hard goal to reach :P 13:39:01 <TrueBrain> how about: 20% talking shit with your coworkers? :D 13:39:14 <andythenorth> I normalised the scale 13:39:17 <TrueBrain> :D 13:39:38 <andythenorth> _some_ new entrants expect more like 100% writing glamorous code and being thanked for it by the whole company 13:39:49 <andythenorth> or maybe I just got burnt by the last couple I tried to train 13:40:00 <andythenorth> probably had another 20 that were humble and diligent 13:40:18 <Timberwolf> Heh. Definitely encountered some of those. 13:41:06 <TrueBrain> like it is pretty common in this world, a few think they are the best and everyone should bow to them .. just check Idols or whatever .. it is parents failing to teach children that failure is a normal part of life 13:41:30 <TrueBrain> "my child is the best" attitude 13:41:35 <TrueBrain> they can just fuck the right off :D 13:41:41 <TrueBrain> divas .. 13:41:51 <Timberwolf> "I've been in your broadband comparison company 3 weeks and I've decided I want to rewrite the entire product search" 13:42:36 <TrueBrain> in a Physics class, 3rd year university, a 1st year dropped by, to tell the teacher we got it wrong: gravity doesn't pull, it pushes us down 13:42:56 <TrueBrain> doing these kind of things ... rarely ... end well ... for you ..... 13:43:17 <TrueBrain> (in reality, gravity doesn't push nor pull, but let's not get into that :D) 13:43:55 <Timberwolf> In that case we used to use "how do you deal with the problem that sometimes you can get two or three Sky addons for a much lower price by randomly adding Movies to the bundle, even if the customer doesn't want Movies?" 13:44:22 <Timberwolf> The people who should actually be trusted to rewrite search already have an answer :) 13:46:18 <Timberwolf> The ones who say, "that's not possible, you can't make it cheaper by adding things" you... find some way to redirect their energy. 13:46:38 <TrueBrain> :D 13:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> (in reality, gravity doesn't push nor pull, but let's not get into that :D) <-- it kinda does both, hence you get an oblong shape from tidal forces 13:47:33 <TrueBrain> it is no force, so it cannot push nor pull :D 13:47:50 <TrueBrain> IT WAS A TRICK! :P 13:47:56 <Timberwolf> aand I realise I've just described the, "I've been playing your OpenTTD game three weeks and have the following pull request to deal with fundamental issues in the game's economic model" situation. 13:47:57 <andythenorth> isn't gravity just the effect of bending a linear surface? 13:48:03 * andythenorth did philosophy not physics 13:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: of course, gravity is a lie. it's all dipoles! 13:48:21 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is the more popular theory, yes, anyway, sort of, what-ever :P 13:48:37 <andythenorth> the weird thing is 13:48:37 <TrueBrain> Timberwolf: yup :D We have plenty of those :P 13:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Timberwolf: more like "let's rewrite this in <random hype language>" 13:49:03 <andythenorth> if you try the thing where you draw a straight line on curved sheet of paper 13:49:03 <TrueBrain> gravity is our failure of only thinking in 3 dimensions :P 13:49:05 <andythenorth> it's mad 13:49:27 <andythenorth> best philosophy lecture we had 13:49:39 <andythenorth> large biscuit tin, pencil, tape, sheet of A4 paper 13:49:47 <TrueBrain> but given we have a 50/50 odd we live in a simulation, nothing is relevant anyway :P 13:49:53 <andythenorth> voila, gravity 13:50:01 <Timberwolf> I did drinking and trying to fix my piece of junk car. 13:50:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: now you're talking like someone arguing whether it's centrifugal force or centripetal force 13:50:11 <andythenorth> Timberwolf in that order? 13:50:51 <TrueBrain> I was wondering how you would drink a piece of junk car .. :D 13:50:52 <Timberwolf> No, although the latter may have worked better if I had. 13:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there's a very narrow band of drinkage that would let you repair cars better 13:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's easy to overshoot 13:52:32 <Timberwolf> It used to like those comedy clown car sort of breakdowns, too. 13:53:01 <Timberwolf> Like one day I left the house and the first turn I came to the passenger door swung open. 13:54:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that means either you have a very weird door lock, or you take turns very weirdly 13:56:47 <andythenorth> hmm diagonal bridges anyone? 13:56:51 * andythenorth thinks not 13:56:55 <Timberwolf> It was a cold day, and what had happened was water had got into the mechanism and then iced up, so when you opened the door the spring that'd close the catch didn't move. 13:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: is this where i come up with a better, more fexible, system, that is utterly unimplementable? 13:57:53 <andythenorth> that's an empirical question 13:58:50 <andythenorth> diagonal tunnels would be rather simpler 13:58:56 <andythenorth> no newgrf spec :P 13:59:29 <andythenorth> but they wouldn't work, because the entrances would span 2 tiles 13:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel heads have a newgrf spec 13:59:50 <andythenorth> that also then 14:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which is mostly a "we don't implement any of that" 14:00:35 <andythenorth> maybe I should patch stations to have bigger catchment 14:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i did that once 14:00:50 <andythenorth> the diagonals is just one solution to constrained space 14:00:54 <andythenorth> there are others 14:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but cargodist and distant-join makes that mostly obsolete 14:03:54 <andythenorth> I need to fit another 7 train stations in here https://grf.farm/images/pfff.png 14:04:30 * andythenorth does not play tidy coop style 14:07:55 <TrueBrain> I wonder how fast I hit the connection limit, but: https://5dffd9cf57db.ngrok.io/Main/en/OpenTTD <- it is far from perfect, but it is rendering fine and fast :) 14:08:29 <TrueBrain> well, "fast" .. images are not being served via nginx :P 14:09:27 <andythenorth> shall I stress test it :P 14:09:46 <andythenorth> nice logo btw 14:09:51 <andythenorth> we should make it bigger though 14:10:07 <glx> yeah it's very small :) 14:10:27 <TrueBrain> :D 14:10:47 <TrueBrain> mediawiki is full of crap, I can promise you :) How it handles images .. is one of them :P 14:11:08 <TrueBrain> https://5dffd9cf57db.ngrok.io/Main/en/Coding%20style <- very happy with that page 14:11:15 <TrueBrain> as Gollum failed to render that < 5s 14:11:38 <TrueBrain> https://5dffd9cf57db.ngrok.io/Main/en/NewGRF <- and here images are looking fine :) 14:11:49 <TrueBrain> that NewGRF page has almost everything .. weird lists, images in weird ways, etc 14:11:54 <TrueBrain> is a nice page to test with 14:12:08 <TrueBrain> btw, tables don't work .. at all :P They just disappear :) 14:12:53 <TrueBrain> but, this is a nice proof-of-concept, that we can write our own wiki-frontend .. it is < 400 lines of code 14:14:00 <glx> missing image in the "warning" block on coding style page 14:14:29 <TrueBrain> yeah, the export is not 100% 14:14:39 <TrueBrain> frosch has a huge list of stuff to fix for me :) 14:14:41 <TrueBrain> :D 14:14:42 *** Flygon has quit IRC 14:14:55 <glx> and the commit hook section looks weird 14:15:07 <glx> other than that it's quite good 14:15:20 <TrueBrain> yeah, "space" at the start of the line should be <pre> blocks, but .. that is difficult 14:15:28 <TrueBrain> there are also missing <p>s everywhere 14:17:05 <TrueBrain> I like the gollum way of rendering a wiki much more than mediawiki 14:17:13 <TrueBrain> full-width is just annoying these days :P 14:17:24 <TrueBrain> how things have changed :D 14:18:22 <TrueBrain> "Authors of commits since 2004 are listed on GitHub None " <- I like these bugs .. "None"? :D 14:19:37 <TrueBrain> hmm, ngrok is bouncing via US .. lets see if I can fix that .. 14:20:10 <TrueBrain> https://1b1dcb418bd4.eu.ngrok.io/Main/en/OpenTTD 14:20:21 <TrueBrain> a lot faster :D 14:22:15 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8308: Feature: Add cargo filter support to vehicle list. https://git.io/JU4lE 14:23:18 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7886: Group management enhancements https://git.io/JeAdk 14:24:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8304: Feature: Show the cargoes the vehicles can carry in the list window. https://git.io/JU3kc 14:25:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #8307: Feature: Show group name as part of the default vehicle name. https://git.io/JU4lR 14:26:54 <TrueBrain> the pages currently render 3 times faster than mediawiki .. lol 14:30:37 <TrueBrain> lol, and with 33MB of RAM 14:30:38 <TrueBrain> haha 14:30:39 <TrueBrain> funny 14:32:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8304: Feature: Show the cargoes the vehicles can carry in the list window. https://git.io/JTYEx 14:34:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] lpenap opened issue #54: [es_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JTYus 14:34:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] lpenap opened issue #55: [es_MX] Translator access request https://git.io/JTYun 14:46:01 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd 14:50:48 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:15:52 <TrueBrain> our wiki is such a good test-case for this library :) The biggest nonsense ... and for 99% it does what it should do .. but it is very good at finding the 1% :D 15:17:41 <TrueBrain> how many lists just skip the first level,for example .. it is funny :) 15:19:36 <glx> mediawiki syntax is so weird, it's easy to write bad thing properly rendered in mediawiki itself, but wrong everywhere else 15:20:48 <glx> and it's probably worse if people used integrated wysiwyg 15:23:12 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 16:05:05 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:10:11 *** urdh has joined #openttd 16:13:32 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 16:44:35 *** urdh has quit IRC 16:57:45 *** heffer has quit IRC 17:07:29 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 17:07:59 *** heffer has joined #openttd 17:11:52 <TrueBrain> sorry frosch123 for the massive issue :P It was easier that way :) 17:14:14 <frosch123> i think i'll create a list of what old page got mapped to which new page, and which got trashed. 17:14:38 <frosch123> but i don't think setting up redirects for all pages is useful 17:15:13 <frosch123> though if you have some crystal ball that tells the 10 most externally linked wiki pages :p 17:15:16 <TrueBrain> least we can do is a pass to rewrite all links 17:15:34 <TrueBrain> I for sure can give you a list of all entry points to the wiki :) 17:15:46 <TrueBrain> but I don't really care about keeping links intact for now 17:15:53 <TrueBrain> as long as the links on the pages work :) 17:17:22 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i hope truewiki will forbid creating pages which only differ in case 17:17:32 <glx> worst case you can redirect links to search page 17:17:34 <TrueBrain> hahahaha, I like that name :P 17:17:35 <frosch123> that's the biggest annoiance in migration 17:17:37 <TrueBrain> you silly goose :) 17:17:56 <TrueBrain> I was wondering if we shouldn't just lowercase files on disk, and ignore cases when the page is requested 17:18:13 <frosch123> then you have to store the real title inside the file 17:18:20 <TrueBrain> fair point 17:18:25 <TrueBrain> switching to Markdown you say? :P 17:18:30 <frosch123> funnily gollum had an option for that 17:18:34 <TrueBrain> but no, fixing all the links should not be difficult 17:18:47 <TrueBrain> it is just a massive calculation, but meh 17:19:43 <andythenorth> Markdown! 17:19:49 <TrueBrain> there are so many lists that are invalid lists; those that start at level=2 17:19:50 <andythenorth> not the weird wiki markup? :o 17:20:17 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Manual_of_style https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD:Manual_of_Style <- that's by far the funniest case of "pages differ by case" 17:20:26 <frosch123> we have two manual of style! 17:20:44 <TrueBrain> and they are totally different ... lol 17:21:04 <TrueBrain> I like the first more :) 17:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and probably both were introduced by overly enthusiastic indivuals and never officially adopted by anyone? 17:21:37 <Eddi|zuHause> *individuals 17:22:48 <frosch123> oh, they are actually different things... 17:22:57 <TrueBrain> I now have a list, that starts at level 1, and jumps to level 3 .. my code to fix these things fails .. hmm 17:22:59 <frosch123> the latter is about the wiki, the former about the game 17:30:41 <TrueBrain> right, solved that .. 17:31:01 <TrueBrain> okay, two "bugs" that I am unsure how to fix ... 1 is when people do <custom> in text .. mediawiki has a whitelist of tags it allows to go through HTML 17:31:06 <TrueBrain> the others it replaces with < etc 17:31:15 <TrueBrain> and the other bug is <pre> block if a line starts with spaces 17:31:26 <TrueBrain> wikitextparser doesn't help with those cases .. hmmm 17:35:38 <TrueBrain> "Unknown WikiLink Main/en/Main talk:Hotkeys" 17:35:47 <TrueBrain> those Talk pages keep popping up :D 17:36:48 <frosch123> i excluded them from the migration by default :) 17:36:57 <TrueBrain> and rightfully 17:37:07 <TrueBrain> I also saw a lot of references to "Archive" 17:37:19 <TrueBrain> but we will flush these things out :) 17:37:47 <TrueBrain> Main:Hotkeys page broke a bit with export too, I see 17:38:39 <TrueBrain> euh, just "Hotkeys" :P 17:39:04 <TrueBrain> {{merge|Hidden features|discuss=Talk:Hotkeys|date=20 September 2018}} 17:39:07 <TrueBrain> like .. wuth? 17:41:38 <TrueBrain> ah, parsing failed because "Main/en/{{NAMESPACE}}" 17:41:54 <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems with {{NAMESPACE}} you shouldn't prefix Main/en .. or just replace {{NAMESPACE}} with Main/en :P 17:42:45 <TrueBrain> I resolve NAMESPACE to Main, making the URL Main/en/Main :D 17:44:05 <TrueBrain> I am honestly not sure that prefixing with Main/en is a good idea btw 17:44:11 <TrueBrain> I guess it is needed to make Gollum happy? 17:44:23 <TrueBrain> but it is quiet a chore for authors to do that 17:44:51 <frosch123> "main" is only a placeholder, it will get worse :) 17:45:12 <TrueBrain> what ... are you planning? :) 17:45:18 <frosch123> anyway, when creating new pages in gollum, it suggested the "current directory" by default 17:45:48 <TrueBrain> yeah, so pages in Main/en/ don't need prefixing with it? 17:45:52 <TrueBrain> sounds good :) 17:48:18 <TrueBrain> ":;Step3: Add trees: place" <- pretty sure they did not intend to make that do what it does .. but it does look pretty 17:48:45 <TrueBrain> (it is a list starting at level 2, containing 2 items, "Step 3" and "Add treees: place ...") 17:49:07 <frosch123> but... step 3 is profit! 17:49:55 <TrueBrain> it heavily confuses wikitextparser :D 17:50:18 <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure that most of what mediawiki renders is due to PHP bugs 17:51:40 <TrueBrain> I do not want to create more bugs .. I already have a few weird ones open, which the author can hopefully fix :D 17:51:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JTYb3 17:51:56 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 17:52:31 *** tokai has joined #openttd 17:52:31 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 17:52:57 <frosch123> most of the slovak translation changes are adding ^ ´ to letters 17:53:08 <frosch123> i guess previous translators didn't bother :) 17:53:15 <TrueBrain> :D 17:54:44 <TrueBrain> owh, the ":;Step3: bla" is by specs .. well, sort of 17:54:51 <TrueBrain> it should be: ";Step3: bla" 17:54:53 <TrueBrain> but okay, details 17:59:25 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 18:20:20 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 18:32:56 <TrueBrain> okay, this definition list really needs a fix in wikitextparser .. it seems the regex is mixing up the order .. but I do not really understand :D 18:52:07 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 18:53:54 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:58:35 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 18:59:45 *** rptr_ has joined #openttd 19:01:45 <TrueBrain> https://bc297c413d59.eu.ngrok.io/Main/en/Scenarios%20Team/Cindini%20Map%20Project#creating-a-city 19:01:49 <TrueBrain> HA! They render as they should :D 19:02:37 <TrueBrain> https://wiki.openttd.org/Scenarios_Team/Cindini_Map_Project#Creating_a_city for comparing 19:02:53 <TrueBrain> and yes, the image is still the wrong width, I know :D 19:04:01 <frosch123> where is that magnifier icon from? 19:04:13 <TrueBrain> utf-8 19:04:59 <frosch123> table at the bottom is centered in original, thought left looks better 19:05:42 <TrueBrain> yeah, table support is not fully there 19:05:51 <frosch123> ah, you render all links in blue, even dead ones 19:07:05 <TrueBrain> yeah; it currently only tells me on console the link is dead 19:07:48 <TrueBrain> I miss a lot of stuff currently :) 19:07:53 <TrueBrain> images too 19:07:57 <TrueBrain> but we will figure that out :) 19:08:12 <TrueBrain> in the issue I created are the most important things I found .. the rest are more breadcrumbs :) 19:08:19 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 19:08:19 * andythenorth figuring out training programmes 19:08:30 <andythenorth> nobody ever taught me how to make tech 19:08:37 <andythenorth> so I have NFI how to teach others 19:08:41 <andythenorth> but then again... 19:08:47 <TrueBrain> only those we can't, teach :P 19:08:51 <andythenorth> oof 19:08:53 <frosch123> how many? employees or customers? 19:09:02 <andythenorth> paid placement employees 19:09:06 <andythenorth> new entrants to industry 19:09:33 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 19:09:36 <andythenorth> I always find this hard, because I learnt everything for myself 19:09:54 <andythenorth> by falling on my face repeatedly 19:10:44 <andythenorth> 'lol there is a debugger in Flash, but I have written my own already' 19:10:47 <andythenorth> oops 19:10:52 <andythenorth> repeat for 10 years 19:14:47 <frosch123> well, to give the most general recommendation: external trainings with trainees from multiple companies are a waste of time / too unspecific. if you can afford it, have in-house training where trainees know about what the other trainees do 19:15:04 <frosch123> but that does not work for fresh employees 19:16:51 <frosch123> well, i guess it depends whether you want people to learn how to do stuff at your place, or whether you want someone to learn how other companies do stuff 19:19:59 <TrueBrain> https://bc297c413d59.eu.ngrok.io/Main/en/Scenarios%20Team/Cindini%20Map%20Project#project-status <- frosch123 : table fixed :) 19:20:14 <TrueBrain> still looks so much better than mediawiki imo :) 19:21:31 <frosch123> i can't say the C word, andy is here :) 19:21:55 <TrueBrain> a hover is not working, and I do not understand why not .. and I don't dare to ask :P 19:24:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 19:25:56 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/Problem/Unix <- wow, i don't think there is a single unix-specific problem on that page 19:26:02 <TrueBrain> haha :D 19:26:17 <TrueBrain> pretty sure nobody tried UNIX :P 19:29:19 <Heiki> “The game could be slow as you could have a Virus Checker, a firewall, and much other software running in the background.” those nasty UNIX Virus Checkers 19:32:24 <TrueBrain> okay, the fact that the thumbs scale poorly is something that should be fixed in CSS, I just don't know how :) 19:32:31 <TrueBrain> I kinda refuse to open the file to find the width, as mediawiki does :P 19:37:56 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 19:40:30 <andythenorth> I want to give people experience so they can get jobs elsewhere 19:40:48 <andythenorth> I kinda know how to train long-term employees 19:41:13 <andythenorth> it's like a work experience thing, paid 19:41:51 <andythenorth> I can't actually employ them, they won't know anything :P 19:43:02 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 19:43:02 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 19:43:10 <frosch123> do you want to train them? or does the government force you to? 19:46:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jelly opened pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip https://git.io/JTOUR 19:49:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] jelly updated pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip https://git.io/JTOUR 19:49:50 *** tokai has quit IRC 19:50:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8328: Make openttd reproducible by not embedding timestamps in gzip https://git.io/JTOUF 19:51:52 <TrueBrain> that was scary quick :o 19:52:49 <frosch123> in time for a t-shirt or a tree 19:56:20 *** vanessa[m] has left #openttd 20:01:32 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 20:04:16 *** gelignite has quit IRC 20:09:30 <TrueBrain> how to tell in CSS an img should use the width/height of the image? 20:09:48 <LordAro> auto? 20:09:49 <TrueBrain> I now have images rendering as 0x0 :P 20:10:01 <LordAro> 100% ? 20:10:03 <TrueBrain> nope, auto doesn't work 20:10:08 * LordAro does not know css 20:10:14 <TrueBrain> 100% neither 20:10:18 <TrueBrain> so .... why help? 20:10:20 <TrueBrain> :( 20:10:23 <TrueBrain> I do appreciate it :P 20:10:55 <TrueBrain> https://bc297c413d59.eu.ngrok.io/Main/en/Signals#path-signals <- a bit lower, there is a table with 2 rows, "Path Signal" and "One-way Path Signal". There are images left there 20:11:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: please fix! 20:11:13 <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/24197730/css-image-max-width-set-to-original-image-size/24198922 20:11:24 <LordAro> TrueBrain: "this is what i would try" 20:11:37 <LordAro> you didn't say what you had tried already :p 20:11:58 <TrueBrain> I was trying the things you mention :D I am willing to try anything :P 20:12:00 <TrueBrain> as this annoys me 20:12:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: no joy :( 20:12:27 <andythenorth> frosch123 I want to 20:12:31 <andythenorth> or I want to try 20:12:45 <andythenorth> not even sure why, but eh 20:13:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: how old are they? < 20, < 30, > 50 ? 20:13:43 <andythenorth> dunno, might be from non-traditional route, i.e. not 22 year old comp. sci grads 20:13:56 <andythenorth> might be retraining older, might be 9 20:13:59 <andythenorth> 19 * 20:14:01 <andythenorth> 9 is ambitious 20:14:13 <frosch123> so, inhomogen on all scales :) 20:14:20 <andythenorth> yup 20:14:41 <andythenorth> the trigger is seeing too many people saying the industry is hard to get in to 20:14:49 <andythenorth> yet nobody can hire 20:14:52 <andythenorth> just seems dumb 20:15:16 <frosch123> oh, that's just the imature schooling 20:15:25 <frosch123> there are like 50 types of engineering degrees 20:15:33 <frosch123> yet only 3 software degrees 20:15:45 <andythenorth> tend to agree 20:15:46 <frosch123> 50 is probably an low estimate 20:15:49 <TrueBrain> wikitextparser seems to refuse to parse tables in a list .. I am not against that ... 20:15:57 <andythenorth> 'professional standards' is lolz in software 20:16:00 <andythenorth> compared to medicine 20:16:02 <andythenorth> or even law 20:16:24 <andythenorth> we have a lot of hot air about science and facts, but so much opinion and emotion 20:16:26 <andythenorth> and low standards 20:16:53 <andythenorth> not that I wanted standards :P 20:16:57 <frosch123> anyway, an expert at one company, can be completely useless at another company 20:17:14 <andythenorth> I quit civil engineering because it was so constrained and you have to be chartered etc 20:17:21 <andythenorth> and it was....boring 20:17:29 <frosch123> just like a building construction engineer is useless at a car manufacturer 20:17:48 <andythenorth> unless you want a car factory built? 20:17:51 <andythenorth> :) 20:31:11 <TrueBrain> ugh, I need to insert <p> in the right places .. this will be painful ... I am sure someone else solved this :P 20:37:26 *** tokai has joined #openttd 20:37:26 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 20:44:19 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 20:44:22 <andythenorth> auto formatter 20:52:34 <TrueBrain> frosch123: https://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Template:32Bpp_Files&action=edit <- that [[Image tag is weird 20:52:52 <TrueBrain> owh, wait, Image is a parameter 20:53:01 <TrueBrain> okay, in that case only the conversion goes wrong :) 20:54:29 <TrueBrain> not sure why it becomes "File:en/.{{{", that "." in there 20:56:21 <frosch123> i may keep my page mapping, but rewrite the link-replacement with a real mediawiki parser, instead of my regexes :) 20:56:45 <TrueBrain> can I suggest wikitextparser? :D 20:58:07 <TrueBrain> style="width="100%"; border=1" 20:58:07 *** heffer has quit IRC 20:58:12 <TrueBrain> this is .... ugh ... that .... no 21:00:24 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:01:10 <TrueBrain> https://wiki.openttd.org/Air_Comparison <- pretty sure my changes didn't improve the page :D 21:01:33 <TrueBrain> fixed it back to the old way, but without error 21:01:43 <TrueBrain> need to get that wiki quota! 21:02:29 *** matt21347 has quit IRC 21:06:55 *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd 21:07:21 <TrueBrain> mediawiki allows way too much wrong code ... 21:07:24 <TrueBrain> tables are a mess too :) 21:07:30 <TrueBrain> I love my "--check-all" :D 21:08:01 <glx> yeah a page can be full of broken tables and still display fine 21:08:19 <TrueBrain> even https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/ButGroundTypes has a broken table :P 21:10:28 <TrueBrain> he is consistent in the mistake at least :D 21:11:16 <TrueBrain> the history is going to have pages that simply do not render properly 21:11:36 <TrueBrain> I will make it as minimal as possible the part that doesn't render, but this is just something that is going to happen :D 21:11:50 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:14:57 <TrueBrain> https://wiki.openttd.org/Special:RecentChanges a very boring history :P 21:18:15 <frosch123> you are fluent in many languages, ru, fr, pl 21:19:30 <frosch123> hmm, the tables you fixed... i think i learned it to do like that :) 21:20:08 <TrueBrain> that was obvious :) 21:20:13 <TrueBrain> you are the only one, so it is okay :D 21:20:31 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 21:22:47 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:24:45 <frosch123> night 21:24:47 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:26:58 <TrueBrain> attribute name of a table .. "boarder" 21:26:59 <TrueBrain> :D 21:27:53 <TrueBrain> at least we are sure that never worked :P 21:30:48 <TrueBrain> okay, I am at the M in pages of fixing tables .. enough for tonight :) 21:56:19 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:01:15 *** Laedek has quit IRC 22:10:36 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:14:51 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 22:25:39 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 22:38:38 *** arikover has quit IRC 23:02:44 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 23:04:02 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 23:31:33 *** piledriven has joined #openttd 23:49:44 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:54:13 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd