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I am however also someone that sits in the object and station menu, clicking and scrolling around for hours. 18:43:01 <andythenorth> I don't do all them realistic, it's just a side effect 18:43:12 <longtomjr> and still build terrible eyecandy 18:43:30 <longtomjr> I also don't care about having them realistic. I want them for seperate groups as well 18:43:47 <andythenorth> I already have all the engine livery options I could ever want 18:43:56 <andythenorth> it's the wagons that are puzzling 18:43:59 <andythenorth> hmm 18:44:05 <longtomjr> especially in co-op infrastructure sharing games, where you run a bunch of inter city trains to the other players, and you want them all to look different because it is fun 18:44:11 <andythenorth> how about I just add colour variants of every wagon to the buy menu? 18:44:29 <andythenorth> e.g. 'box car red', 'box car blue', 'box car green' 18:44:39 <longtomjr> Can that not just be done with 2cc? 18:45:02 <longtomjr> and add a part to the description of the wagon saying what colors result in what livery looks? 18:46:27 *** m1cr0man has joined #openttd 18:48:23 <longtomjr> You can just have it as cargo subtypes for the wagons, and then you can just multi-select the wagons in the refit menu 18:53:07 <andythenorth> I never use refit menu :) 18:53:12 <andythenorth> awkward I know :) 18:53:46 <andythenorth> I am trying to use side channels because I hate the official API for modifying vehicles 18:57:05 <FLHerne> Perhaps there should be an API for grfs to add extra settings per train/group/company 18:57:10 <FLHerne> Sort of extended action14 18:58:26 <FLHerne> But instead of specifying parameters it would specify a set of vehicle variables 18:59:10 <FLHerne> precedence would be train > group > [parent group] > company 19:01:05 <longtomjr> andythenorth, can you not just work around the official api for modifying vehicles since you can just generate with scripts? 19:01:13 <longtomjr> or am I missing something 19:01:38 <FLHerne> longtomjr: Then the vehicle list would be ludicrously unusable instead 19:02:08 <andythenorth> FLHerne I wondered about that, extensible [something] 19:02:10 <longtomjr> I meant doing it the cargo subtype way 19:02:27 <FLHerne> (possibly this is news to anyone who's used the station list with nine million custom tiles) 19:03:59 <andythenorth> I was hopeful about just using grf parameters 19:04:10 <andythenorth> but it's very definitively not per vehicle or per train or per group 19:05:13 <andythenorth> I could modify all the engines to only use 1CC 19:05:19 <andythenorth> and then set all wagons to 2CC 19:05:33 <andythenorth> then the group livery can be used for modifications 19:05:59 <longtomjr> Or have the engines be cargo subtypes (since you only need 1 cargo type for them, since they wont have capacity in most cases), and use cc for wagons 19:07:02 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why wouldn't the wagons just follow the loco colorscheme? 19:07:25 <FLHerne> Not necessarily the same colour, but the corresponding one 19:07:26 <andythenorth> there's a sub-genre of players who like to use grey / brown etc for the wagons 19:07:48 <andythenorth> I can make realistic wagon liveries follow realistic engine liveries 19:08:10 <andythenorth> grainflow hoppers with railfreight 37s :P 19:08:11 <FLHerne> Yeah, so "if loco is green, make wagons grey, else if loco is blue make wagons brown" 19:08:13 <FLHerne> or something 19:08:24 <andythenorth> yes, I've got that in a grf parameter currently 19:09:03 <longtomjr> RUKTS has some decent livery selection options, only using the refit. Don't think there is anything for the cargo wagons though 19:09:21 <longtomjr> tbh, I would probably like to play with my wagons gray or brown in most cases 19:09:39 <andythenorth> the challenge is how to combine 'andythenorth chooses your colours' and 'you choose your own colours' 19:09:52 <andythenorth> without groups, it's very easy to choose your wagon colour 19:10:06 <longtomjr> Iron Horse 2cc, and Iron Horse livery set 19:10:32 <longtomjr> The target group is probably different enough that 2 grfs makes sense 19:10:52 <longtomjr> Maybe you can do something smart during the build process to just output 2 grf files 19:11:33 <andythenorth> hmm 19:11:46 <andythenorth> it's not really a newgrf problem, in the final analysis 19:12:05 <andythenorth> I guess all I'm trying to do is fix that group liveries doesn't support wagon colours 19:12:10 <andythenorth> I really group liveries 19:12:21 <andythenorth> and I really like being able to set wagon colours 19:12:36 <andythenorth> so I'm just trying to fix OpenTTD using newgrf 19:12:53 <longtomjr> the 1cc engine + 2cc wagon seems like a decent idea 19:13:16 <andythenorth> I'd need a grf parameter for the second engine colour 19:13:18 <longtomjr> Maybe make that a parameter 19:13:44 <longtomjr> or just have a complement color that is automatically chosen depending on the chosen color? 19:14:02 <longtomjr> it is the lukewarm compromise, but for most cases it will probably be fine 19:15:24 <andythenorth> I think the find(string) route in group name would be interesting 19:15:30 <longtomjr> Also, doing these things with parameters does not really work great with multiplayer games 19:15:33 <andythenorth> no 19:15:44 <andythenorth> nor for most players who do not have grf developer tools enabled 19:15:50 <andythenorth> 'Freight (green)' 19:16:05 <andythenorth> 'Freight (75:13 gearing)' 19:16:18 <andythenorth> 'Freight (slower speed, reduced running cost)' 19:16:27 <andythenorth> basically a text API to modify vehicles 19:16:47 <longtomjr> I honestly don't see the benefit of that over using cargo subtypes 19:17:03 <andythenorth> well it applies to the whole group trivially 19:17:32 <longtomjr> Hmm, I think I would probably just use template replacement for that then. but I think that is a JGRPP feature 19:17:57 <longtomjr> or add it to a refit at station command 19:18:24 <andythenorth> also the text API doesn't require looking through (for example) 192 options in the refit list 19:18:37 <andythenorth> refit to station can't and won't support subtypes 19:18:40 <longtomjr> but it does require you to know it 19:18:44 <andythenorth> same as autoreplace can't and won't 19:19:41 <andythenorth> I was thinking the text API could have a cult following, like commands in text adventure games 19:19:45 <andythenorth> with cheat sheets and stuff 19:19:58 <andythenorth> I could make a cheat sheet for Horse, printable 19:21:28 <longtomjr> The way I see it is that the refit list is like an ingame cheat sheet list 19:21:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I still don't really understand the issue 19:21:47 <FLHerne> > without groups, it's very easy to choose your wagon colour 19:21:57 <andythenorth> yes 19:21:57 <FLHerne> How do groups change that at all? 19:22:15 <andythenorth> the group livery enforces cc1 and cc2 for all groups in the consist 19:22:17 <longtomjr> But yes, scrolling through all the options to get what you want can be grueling (compared to just typing) 19:22:32 <andythenorth> * all consists in the group oof :) 19:22:44 <andythenorth> any other vehicle type cc settings are over-ridden 19:24:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But you can still set custom recolour sprites from the grf, no? 19:24:50 <andythenorth> yes, but I can't read the client's wagon colour vars 19:25:16 <andythenorth> the API will let me control player colours any way I want 19:25:18 <FLHerne> Does that matter? 19:25:23 <andythenorth> but the point is that players choose 19:25:29 <andythenorth> I mean, usually, I prefer choosing for players :P 19:25:36 <andythenorth> but setting colours is a player thing 19:25:37 <FLHerne> Wagons are generally either 'colourful' or 'brown' :p 19:25:47 <FLHerne> There's not much middle ground really 19:26:27 <FLHerne> So I think a grf-level setting for "wagons CC" <-> "wagons realistic" would work fine 19:26:50 <FLHerne> Where "realistic" means either "brown/grey" or "some livery corresponding to the loco" or whatever 19:27:06 <FLHerne> (which is kind of what you have now?) 19:27:30 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=214938 19:27:39 <andythenorth> that's slightly outdated, I added more options since 19:28:30 <FLHerne> That seems like overkill, but ok 19:29:15 <longtomjr> Is there a rainbow mode? where each wagon gets a random color? 19:29:17 <FLHerne> That seems fine. Stop trying to solve nonexistent problems :p 19:30:53 <andythenorth> longtomjr I removed it, but https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=214971 19:31:14 <longtomjr> Hehe, i like that :) 19:31:28 <andythenorth> I considered making it actually rainbow cycle 19:31:31 <andythenorth> as a stupid easter egg 19:31:41 <longtomjr> Graffiti liveries would also be cool 19:31:49 <andythenorth> I can just measure position in consist mod(7) 19:31:55 <andythenorth> for rainbow 19:32:12 <longtomjr> have every n'th wagon have a colorful graffiti look 19:32:19 <andythenorth> would need actual sprites :) 19:32:23 <andythenorth> so....nah :) 19:32:51 <longtomjr> I would settle for just having every n'th wagon colored 19:33:09 <longtomjr> but anyways, I am off to bed now. Good luck in your colorful quest. Night all! 19:41:45 *** longtomjr has quit IRC 19:54:22 <andythenorth> maybe I just remove this colour stuff :D 19:54:24 <andythenorth> simpler 20:34:07 *** Progman has joined #openttd 20:47:26 *** otetede has quit IRC 21:01:04 *** heffer has quit IRC 21:01:45 *** heffer has joined #openttd 21:17:00 <andythenorth> no maybe I just pick better alternate CC shades 21:17:02 <andythenorth> so it looks better 21:18:23 <andythenorth> oh I have an idea :D 21:21:33 <andythenorth> ha ha 21:21:38 <andythenorth> I can check lead engine CC 21:22:41 <andythenorth> if lead engine CC matches vehicle CC, it's probably in a group with group livery set 21:23:56 <andythenorth> I can infer that if they differ, player has made an explicit choice 21:24:03 <andythenorth> and respect it 21:24:15 <andythenorth> if they haven't, set colour according to parameter rule 21:24:20 <andythenorth> side channel trickery :) 21:36:31 <andythenorth> that will have the stupid result that if player hasn't set wagon CC, I'll over-ride their default choice :( 21:36:32 <andythenorth> oof 21:52:13 <FLHerne> You have strange concerns 21:52:31 <FLHerne> If the player hasn't set wagon CC, they probably don't care what colour their wagons are 21:59:06 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:06:22 <andythenorth> I guess it's about player having choice 22:06:23 <andythenorth> not me 22:06:47 <andythenorth> there will be a solution, I just need to figure out the edges 22:32:03 *** matt21347 has quit IRC 22:40:23 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 22:46:25 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 22:49:11 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 23:22:53 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:23:49 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 23:46:55 *** Progman has quit IRC