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00:00:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzC4 00:02:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst 00:03:39 *** Afdal has joined #openttd 00:03:55 <Afdal> Has net_frame_freq been replaced with a new setting 00:04:02 <Afdal> Someone remind me how to compensate for latency 00:07:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst 00:16:05 *** Speedy` has quit IRC 00:28:13 *** Speedy` has joined #openttd 00:28:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLz83 00:38:51 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 00:46:56 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzBr 00:59:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLz0Z 01:02:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLz0S 01:19:47 *** Progman has quit IRC 02:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: if i read things correctly, it's "network.frame_freq" 02:16:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzot 02:26:35 <Afdal> ah thank you 02:38:33 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 02:49:02 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:26:16 *** glx has quit IRC 03:35:43 *** debdog has joined #openttd 03:39:08 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 03:39:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JLz9w 04:05:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/fhGxd 04:05:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JLz5S 04:31:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzAY 04:33:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzAy 04:34:12 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst 04:34:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst 04:34:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst 04:34:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst 04:34:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst 05:16:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst 06:29:01 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 06:38:13 *** rptr_ has joined #openttd 07:24:12 *** rptr_ has quit IRC 07:50:27 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:58:20 <andythenorth> for declaring big blocks of constants 07:58:21 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:58:26 <andythenorth> in nest tuples or lists etc 07:58:35 <andythenorth> black is not more readable 07:59:05 <andythenorth> BUT...it stops me having to do format, so I'm using it anyway 08:16:14 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 08:16:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 08:23:01 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:23:17 *** tokai has quit IRC 08:39:45 *** Progman has joined #openttd 08:52:31 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is what we all do: it is not perfect, but it is better than doing it myself :P Over time you will notice you adjust how you write Python to make that happen less :) 08:54:38 <andythenorth> there is an argument that we make nicer things when we take care about how the internals look 08:54:46 <andythenorth> which I find convincing 08:54:52 <andythenorth> but I'm so bored of moving frigging spaces around 08:55:00 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 08:55:13 <andythenorth> especially to line up function args 08:55:41 <andythenorth> what really happens is that I forget, or get bored, or change style 08:55:46 <TrueBrain> you don't belong in IT if you are not trying to automate your work away :P 08:55:55 <andythenorth> then the format is inconsistent across the project 08:56:16 * andythenorth wants black for html 08:56:38 <TrueBrain> some editors can 08:56:57 <TrueBrain> they work better if you write XHTML, is my experience :D 08:57:17 <andythenorth> it's more that black has clearly won 08:57:22 <andythenorth> even if guido doesn't like it 08:59:10 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 08:59:23 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 09:03:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8392: CargoSpec array cleanup https://git.io/JLgrV 09:04:19 <andythenorth> found an early software use of 'bikeshed' 09:04:27 <andythenorth> http://bikeshed.com/ 09:04:41 <andythenorth> quite good, explains better 09:06:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JLgot 09:07:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JLgoZ 09:13:01 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is a nice read :) 09:13:21 <andythenorth> yes 09:13:40 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain merged pull request #7962: Improve rendering of large viewport areas https://git.io/Jvqwk 09:13:46 <andythenorth> I have seen "bikeshed" misunderstood as "you shouldn't care about details" 09:14:25 <andythenorth> instead of advice that "everybody commits this fallacy by debating the thing they feel they understand" 09:15:20 <TrueBrain> did you see that the website has another background every time you reload? :P 09:15:24 <andythenorth> yes 09:15:29 <andythenorth> one of the was unreadable :D 09:15:38 <andythenorth> but that post....makes a nice point about grumpy experienced contributors driving away new people 09:15:39 <TrueBrain> I had a pink one a moment ago .. that was unreadable :P 09:16:11 <andythenorth> like...I see things that will come back to me later as 'please fix in newgrf' so I get grumpy 09:16:24 <andythenorth> it's not the best way to keep the project moving 09:16:34 <TrueBrain> there is also the other side of this spectrum, which I find entertaining too .. the atomic power plant. In my dayjob, it is my job to make something like that understandable to a board so they can have an opinion about it other than: "you did the work, it is fine" .. it is amazing how easy they slip to the other side of the spectrum, and complain about the details 09:16:38 <TrueBrain> like .. "name of the project" :P 09:17:13 <TrueBrain> IT is such a balancing act of all these wisdoms :) 09:18:41 <andythenorth> the last 4 paragraphs :P 09:21:04 <andythenorth> it's why JGR can make progress 09:21:12 <andythenorth> no friction, no attrition, no social costs 09:24:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7919: Lifetime profit https://git.io/JLg6h 09:24:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #7919: Lifetime profit https://git.io/JveOR 09:34:18 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination https://git.io/JLgPa 09:34:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8009: Change #8001: Don't add docking tile cost when ships are still too far from their destination https://git.io/Jv41T 09:36:16 <andythenorth> TrueBrain you in a discussing mood? Or a 'get things done' mood? :) 09:36:41 <TrueBrain> neither and both, so bring it on :) 09:37:17 <TrueBrain> (I was in a: I really do not want to close this as I don't feel like spending the next N hours defending my position, so how am I going to word this to make myself clear, mood) 09:37:18 <TrueBrain> :P 09:37:32 <andythenorth> nothing to do with those tickets :) 09:38:01 <TrueBrain> I understood that :) 09:38:07 <andythenorth> TL;DR do a 'candidates' branch, maybe monthly, merging selected PRs to one binary, with (I assume) both WASM and download-binary builds 09:38:19 <andythenorth> we can start from 'why?' not 'solution' also if you want 09:38:36 <TrueBrain> that might be a better idea :P As my current reply is: yes, we call that "master" :) 09:38:48 <TrueBrain> giggles 09:39:40 <andythenorth> well 09:39:48 <andythenorth> we're pretty conservative about master 09:40:32 <andythenorth> TL;DR for 'why?' is many-eyes-make-shallow-bugs 09:40:41 <andythenorth> example is, e.g. https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8342#issuecomment-748331405 09:40:53 <andythenorth> auto-separate patch would be well worth having 09:40:59 <andythenorth> but 'nobody here plays' 09:41:08 <andythenorth> and my testing is usually unusable 09:41:26 <andythenorth> and the WASM build is awesome, but players won't commit to a long game with a single feature 09:41:37 <andythenorth> they'll just use JGR instead 09:42:39 <andythenorth> I am willing to put money on it that the curious players who used to use nightlies now just use JGR 09:42:52 <andythenorth> so we've lost our early-release testing player base 09:45:25 <_dp_> well, if jgr has the same autosep it doesn't rly matter what players use :p 09:46:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLg13 09:46:42 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so, an alternative to your idea could be a "showcase" where people can vote on features, how they perceive it? 09:46:56 <andythenorth> some kind of feature gallery? 09:46:59 <TrueBrain> so take your PR, we generate the WASM preview, we put it somewhere people can vote (and leave comments) regarding the gameplay 09:46:59 <andythenorth> let's explore 09:47:02 <TrueBrain> so not the code, to be clear :) 09:47:19 <TrueBrain> this is kinda what you suggest, only instead of putting effort on our plate of creating such monthly, it puts the effort in GitHub and on the author 09:47:26 <andythenorth> I definitely don't have a preferred solution to this 09:47:30 <_dp_> 8032 looks fishy imo 09:47:30 <TrueBrain> we just need a place to run those showcases :) 09:47:38 <andythenorth> but I think my diagnosis of playerbase is about right 09:47:52 <andythenorth> reddit is mostly JGR, discord is mostly JGR, forums is mostly JGR, and coop is dead 09:48:08 <andythenorth> maybe we have 20k vanilla trunk official release players 09:48:11 <TrueBrain> which, combined, is .. how much % of our player base? :D 09:48:13 <andythenorth> but they don't find and report the bugs 09:48:30 <andythenorth> I think I failed to make this point previously 09:48:43 <andythenorth> it's only the vocal, responsive part of the playerbase that concerns me :) 09:48:55 <TrueBrain> but we have a broader responsibility 09:49:00 <andythenorth> coop used to test and find all kinds of stuff by pushing the game harder 09:49:17 <andythenorth> yes we do have a broader responsibility 100% agree 09:49:35 <andythenorth> I just wonder what our current QA strategy is :P 09:49:35 <TrueBrain> we will always be more conservative than any patchpack :D We kinda have to :P 09:49:39 <andythenorth> yes 09:49:53 <TrueBrain> but currently what I am missing, is the lack of being able to judge features 09:50:05 <TrueBrain> I can create my own opinion, but I don't play .. so it is worth nothing 09:50:07 <andythenorth> I am going to make a bold proposal (shoot it down as you see fit) 09:50:16 <andythenorth> features are judged by _playing the game_ 09:50:19 <andythenorth> not armchair coding 09:50:37 <andythenorth> and devs don't play 09:50:42 <andythenorth> so we need...help :D 09:51:08 <TrueBrain> that is not a proposal 09:51:09 <TrueBrain> :P 09:51:22 * _dp_ played yesterday 09:51:26 <_dp_> ui sucks :/ 09:51:31 <andythenorth> well, I think we have judged a lot of features without playing the game :D 09:51:33 <TrueBrain> UI always sucked 09:51:36 <TrueBrain> like .. always :P 09:51:40 <_dp_> ik 09:51:47 <andythenorth> it's charmingly bad mostly 09:51:47 <TrueBrain> it annoys the hell out of me 09:51:50 <andythenorth> call it a feature 09:51:54 <TrueBrain> that the UI is rewritten .. to have the same shitty UX :P 09:52:11 <andythenorth> anyway I think with WASM and so on we're 95% of what we need 09:52:15 <andythenorth> we just need some bait 09:52:19 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you are still not making a proposal, you know that right? You are just stating observations :P 09:52:22 <andythenorth> yes 09:52:25 <TrueBrain> :D 09:52:28 <andythenorth> I don't have a preferred solution 09:52:38 <TrueBrain> but I am now waiting on the bold proposal! :P 09:52:39 <andythenorth> I think 'test by playing' actually is a proposal in this channel 09:52:41 <TrueBrain> I want to shoot things down :D 09:53:00 <andythenorth> well I wanted to propose "let's make bleeding edge builds" 09:53:04 <andythenorth> then I remembered 09:53:09 <andythenorth> you've done nearly all of that 09:53:18 <andythenorth> hurrah! 09:53:25 <TrueBrain> I always like when people lag behind change I am creating :P 09:53:26 <TrueBrain> <3 09:53:32 <andythenorth> remembering things takes time 09:53:48 <TrueBrain> so what I was saying: currently I have a huge problem judging features 09:53:56 <TrueBrain> which makes it very opinionated, and you see that back in comments 09:54:02 <TrueBrain> people bring forth good arguments 09:54:07 <TrueBrain> but .. it is hard to weight those 09:54:21 <TrueBrain> this is why those features need more opinions from players, in my opinion 09:54:26 <andythenorth> +1 09:54:31 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8032 for example, we can just handle that between devs 09:54:32 <andythenorth> so WASM 09:54:35 <andythenorth> + cloud saves 09:54:35 <TrueBrain> that is just .. "how does OpenTTD work" 09:54:43 <TrueBrain> there is nothing scary about that 09:55:01 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8304 on the other hand, that is .. different 09:55:09 <_dp_> compatible features can be tested in cmclient first btw, it's very much a "bleeding edge build" 09:55:15 <_dp_> if anyone bothers to do a patch... 09:55:27 <TrueBrain> it is not that we need it tested, it is that we need opinions 09:55:43 <TrueBrain> so having it in any client, in my opinion, is not good enough 09:55:54 <TrueBrain> take the cargo indication ... it solves an itch for at least 2 people 09:56:00 <TrueBrain> but ... how many more people get frustrated by it? 09:56:17 <TrueBrain> (the UI is cluttered as it is, ofc) 09:56:31 <andythenorth> this is why some projects have "this feature might go away" builds? 09:56:35 <TrueBrain> currently I have nothing to judge that feature on 09:56:39 <andythenorth> I play the Blitz tank game a lot 09:56:49 <andythenorth> and the UI and tank tech tree constantly get changed 09:56:53 <andythenorth> and players complain 09:56:58 <andythenorth> and if they didn't get changed 09:57:01 <andythenorth> players would complain 09:57:15 <TrueBrain> we used to have a group of players that played nightlies a lot 09:57:18 <andythenorth> yes 09:57:20 <TrueBrain> and new features were judge pretty quickly 09:57:22 <andythenorth> yes 09:57:28 <andythenorth> we still have the players 09:57:31 <andythenorth> but they use JGR 09:57:32 <TrueBrain> we are not going to get that back :) 09:57:44 <andythenorth> so we can treat JGR as our upstream for patches 09:57:46 <andythenorth> or... 09:57:50 <TrueBrain> so this is why I was thinking: put for example https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8304 preview build on a place, and ask people to judge it 09:57:57 <TrueBrain> on a Discussion, for example 09:58:19 <TrueBrain> and 8304 is a simple example ... I even haven't gotten to the: wtf do we do with this :P 09:58:23 <andythenorth> with some kind of offer? 09:58:36 <andythenorth> "we don't know if this is good or not, but we'll try and make the best decision using feedback?" 09:58:42 <andythenorth> pure voting is too easily gamed 09:58:54 <TrueBrain> take https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7886 for example 09:59:26 <TrueBrain> I don't even know where to begin 09:59:30 <andythenorth> me neither 09:59:33 <_dp_> 8304 kinda looks like a change that makes no difference whatsoever to 99% of players 09:59:38 <andythenorth> and I play the game almost every day 10:00:15 <TrueBrain> _dp_: and that would make it an easy merge, if that is the case; but that is your judgement atm :) So we now have 2 opinions on that PR :P 10:00:18 <TrueBrain> I kinda want more :) 10:00:19 <andythenorth> I kind of wonder if trying to clear out the PRs is the best thing right now 10:00:32 <andythenorth> or if we should take JGR as temporary upstream and try and fold a lot of it back in 10:00:35 <TrueBrain> see, in my opinion, OpenTTD is not ours, but of the players. But .. we have a responsibility to keep it a game, and make sure it is playable 10:00:47 <andythenorth> custodian-ship model TrueBrain ? 10:00:51 <andythenorth> 'we are the janitors' 10:00:56 <TrueBrain> but we are 10:00:57 <andythenorth> trustees 10:00:57 <TrueBrain> I mean ... 10:01:22 <TrueBrain> to name something: copy/paste patches 10:01:26 <TrueBrain> we were always against it,as it ruins the game 10:01:29 <TrueBrain> now look at Factorio 10:01:31 <TrueBrain> look back to me 10:01:35 <TrueBrain> (hihi) 10:01:45 <andythenorth> it ruins the game for one specific mental model of 'the game' 10:01:51 <andythenorth> but things change 10:01:52 <TrueBrain> copy/paste is just for another type of player 10:02:24 <TrueBrain> I have grown to love games that allow Total Conversions 10:02:41 <TrueBrain> the game allows interaction, a mod takes over and does what-ever the mod does 10:02:42 * _dp_ played with copy/paste yesterday, couldn't think of any use for it :/ 10:02:48 <TrueBrain> the TC is VERY opinionated 10:02:57 <TrueBrain> _dp_: you are a different type of player, clearly :D 10:03:12 <_dp_> xD 10:03:18 <Wolf01> I'm for: new features are welcome, if they won't change the normal way to play, just don't use them if you don't like them 10:03:24 <andythenorth> things change https://www.macstories.net/news/2000-imac-compared-to-the-iphone-4/ 10:03:39 <andythenorth> hmm sometimes they stop changing also, 2020 phone is about same as 2010 10:03:50 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: well, that might be too easy, honestly. And the problem there is human nature. If I can have copy/paste to create junctions quick, why would I do it manually, to name one? 10:03:56 <TrueBrain> it is very hard for a human to not use it in that case 10:04:21 <TrueBrain> but for some a lot of fun is gained from creating junctions 10:04:27 <andythenorth> I think what Frosch wrote here was a very good addition to running the project, even if I'm the only one who reads it https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#project-goals 10:04:29 <TrueBrain> others, especially with NewGRFs, it is more about creating beautiful networks 10:04:46 <andythenorth> "Allow extending the gameplay with add-ons / mods via supported content APIs" 10:05:02 <Wolf01> I could take C:S as an example, I could copy/paste road junctions, but I like more to create them manually, roundabouts instead are different and I use the mod to create them easily 10:05:06 <TrueBrain> but here is the problem .. something like copy/paste cannot be done via an API currently, and is also not likely to be made possible :) 10:05:27 <andythenorth> I don't see the rationale for hostility to copy-paste 10:05:42 <andythenorth> there is a bit of baggage around 'players should have to do work or it's not fun' in openttd 10:05:53 <TrueBrain> the problem how I see it .. we have one box, and we put all kind of different players in the same 10:05:57 <TrueBrain> and are surprised one group complains :P 10:05:58 <andythenorth> I have no use for copy-paste in my game, does that make it bad? 10:06:09 <andythenorth> discord is really nice to be in at the moment 10:06:25 <TrueBrain> what I would personally like, that you can select the type of player you are 10:06:27 <andythenorth> there is a triangle of different chat 10:06:30 <TrueBrain> and the game adjusts itself based on that 10:06:44 <TrueBrain> you want to do some roleplaying? Sure! 10:06:50 <andythenorth> at one extreme, there are people hacking newgrfs for maximum speed run, currently they win in about 1.2s 10:06:54 <TrueBrain> you rather just make millions really easy? Sure! 10:07:05 <TrueBrain> Factorio is just an awesome example for this btw 10:07:09 <TrueBrain> I like seablock games 10:07:11 <Wolf01> OpenTTD is really a good game, it's sandbox enough to let players decide their own way to play it, and I like it so 10:07:14 <andythenorth> at the other extreme there is a guy building a scale model of Germany and all timetabled DB trains, and another doing same for UK 10:07:33 <andythenorth> in the 3rd corner are new players learning about signals and orders 10:07:47 <TrueBrain> so yes, the README states nicely what to consider 10:07:55 <TrueBrain> but for a bunch of features we currently have not a way to allow them 10:07:58 <TrueBrain> like all the GUI changes 10:08:07 <andythenorth> so we don't have moddable / scriptable UI 10:08:20 <TrueBrain> we have some snippets for that, like GS can 10:08:26 <andythenorth> so baby steps 10:08:28 <andythenorth> we could learn from 10:09:00 <TrueBrain> there is a related problem .. we cannot really do A/B testing 10:09:07 <TrueBrain> which means what-ever we do, it is an opinion of a few 10:09:39 <TrueBrain> and if you just start dumping every feature in the game behind settings, soon you won't have a game to call a game :D 10:10:09 <TrueBrain> so I come back to: the best games are those who allow total conversion 10:10:14 <TrueBrain> take Minecraft, take Factorio, take ... 10:10:37 <Wolf01> Just don't put them behind a setting, but still make them optional to use, for example timetables, there is a button on the order interface, if you don't like them don't use them 10:10:46 <andythenorth> the settings are bad crack, frosch already wrote about that many times 10:10:46 <Wolf01> No need to make a setting to enable/disable them 10:10:51 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: there is a finite amount of things you can do like that 10:10:54 <andythenorth> settings end up being not orthogonal 10:11:04 <andythenorth> so in the name of progress, we inhibit future progress 10:11:08 <TrueBrain> we cannot have 100 buttons on the window, for all the different players 10:11:22 <TrueBrain> like we now have a PR for auto separation 10:11:31 <TrueBrain> which looks nice, but is yet-another-button 10:11:46 <andythenorth> so this is 2 topics now I think 10:11:56 <andythenorth> one is 'how can we get some testers' 10:12:07 <andythenorth> and the other is 'what is quality, in OpenTTD' 10:12:22 <TrueBrain> I really do not care about testers, honestly. I need people who give their opinion on a subject :) 10:12:26 <TrueBrain> (people who play the game :P) 10:12:39 <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> which means what-ever we do, it is an opinion of a few <- this is another thing I can't understand, yes, the official build is a mirror of the devs opinions, but the game is open source, there is JGR patch pack and other ones too with a lot of different features, and people play them 10:12:40 <TrueBrain> game-reviewers, might be a better word :) 10:13:09 <andythenorth> ok, so change the word :) 10:13:12 <TrueBrain> the people that play JGR is a minority (not meant with any disrespect) 10:13:32 <TrueBrain> but you want a game to remain a game 10:13:35 <TrueBrain> and this has always been a battle 10:13:43 <andythenorth> democracy means open to everyone....but decisions get made by those who turn up 10:13:58 <andythenorth> and open source doesn't even have to be a democracy... 10:13:59 <_dp_> I guess I'll include c&p in cmclient 1.11 and see what happens xD 10:14:28 <TrueBrain> the base game, without modifications, with default settings, should be an enjoyable game to play, in my opinion 10:14:55 <andythenorth> yes! 10:14:56 <andythenorth> it is ! 10:15:33 <TrueBrain> take this PR: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8274 10:15:38 <TrueBrain> for a new players, that is just a bad idea 10:15:40 <andythenorth> give or take some odd things, that could be written down and fixed as small incremental improvements 10:16:04 <Wolf01> That's just lazyness 10:16:10 <TrueBrain> but I understand a veteran would love to have that 10:16:14 <_dp_> enjoyment is subjective though... 10:16:36 <_dp_> I don't like building stuff for example :p 10:16:57 <TrueBrain> and I like coop a lot, as in: an infrastructure sharing patch I once wrote 10:17:00 <TrueBrain> one person makes the infra 10:17:02 <Wolf01> I wouldn't like to have that, even if I'm a veteran, and because of that I know it will lead for train crashes for sure 10:17:04 <TrueBrain> the other builds the trains 10:17:23 <andythenorth> hmm 10:17:24 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: but you are just 1 player; another veteran thinks differently about those things :) 10:17:28 <andythenorth> we lack telemetry 10:17:34 <TrueBrain> we cannot possibly fit all the types of gameplay in a single base game 10:17:39 <TrueBrain> that will never ever be possible :P 10:17:44 <andythenorth> I was going to propose 'feature lives or dies by whether it gets used' 10:17:45 <TrueBrain> (and this is said in the README :D) 10:17:47 <andythenorth> but we don't have telemetry 10:17:53 <TrueBrain> even that is a bad idea :) 10:18:09 <TrueBrain> what I am trying to get at: we, as a small group, cannot state how others should play 10:18:17 <TrueBrain> but we can also not just add every feature and "use it if you like" 10:18:26 <TrueBrain> hence .. modding! 10:18:29 <andythenorth> +1 10:18:34 <andythenorth> really 10:18:38 <Wolf01> We shouldn't add things which lead to bad play style or putting it in american "nobody warned me which doing that could lead to..." 10:18:42 <andythenorth> pls, send me link to newsletter 10:19:19 <TrueBrain> "We shouldn't add things which lead to bad play style" <- define "bad play style" .. as that is an opinion :D 10:19:34 <Wolf01> Auto remove a signal is a bad play style 10:19:39 <TrueBrain> I believe I once got kicked from openttdcoop for .. doing things ... "wrong" :P 10:19:43 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: in your opinion 10:19:46 <TrueBrain> and that is fine :) 10:19:51 <TrueBrain> clearly, someone strongly disagrees with you :P 10:19:55 <TrueBrain> (he took the effort to make a PR!) 10:20:13 <_dp_> even I disagree with that :p 10:20:29 <TrueBrain> it is a sandbox .. taste defines your game play :) 10:20:43 <_dp_> it may not be on the top of my list of the most annoying things but it's defenitely near xD 10:20:52 <Wolf01> Even auto remove a river is a bad play style, it happened to me a lot by mistake 10:21:12 <TrueBrain> you have to learn to add: "I consider a bad play style" :) It is not a fact :) It is an opinion ;) 10:21:35 <andythenorth> +1 10:21:35 <Wolf01> It's implicit 10:21:50 <andythenorth> I think it's implicit, but I'm often wrong 10:22:07 <andythenorth> I confuse people who see my strong opinion, and think I can't empathise with other play styles 10:22:16 <andythenorth> so it's worth making it explicit 10:22:56 <andythenorth> this https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/kfs739/trainspotting_at_hannover_hbf/ is really very different to this https://www.speedrun.com/openttd/run/mk31gwvz :D 10:23:09 <TrueBrain> stating opinions as facts mostly means people don't dare to disagree, as they think they disagree with a fact :) Humans are weird :P 10:23:54 <TrueBrain> anyway, zooming out a bit: the README states pretty damn nice how vanilla OpenTTD operates 10:23:59 <TrueBrain> and that is completely fine 10:24:12 <TrueBrain> we lack people investing in creating a framework for modifications of some parts 10:24:29 <TrueBrain> but that is more a matter of .. promoting that type of change 10:24:40 <TrueBrain> for example: move the fucking economy into a GS and be done with it :P 10:24:44 <_dp_> wasm! xD 10:25:07 <TrueBrain> transform the whole game to WASM only and allow extensions via WASM, yes please :P 10:25:42 <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> we lack people investing in creating a framework for modifications of some parts <- the idea was to remove everything from the game and re-add it as a modification :P 10:25:54 <TrueBrain> it does solve most problems, yes 10:26:00 <TrueBrain> just .. performance is a bit of an issue :P 10:26:21 <Wolf01> That's not my field :P 10:26:31 <_dp_> nah, you don't need to transform the whole game... only half :p 10:26:39 <_dp_> rip out newgrfs and put wasm there :p 10:26:48 <andythenorth> I would buy into that 10:26:59 <andythenorth> but I'm not sure what the 'why' is 10:27:06 <andythenorth> sounds like a solution, not an outcome 10:27:15 <andythenorth> implementation / solution /s 10:27:24 <TrueBrain> what you want, is a higher-level language to make modifications, which can be compiled to what-ever OpenTTD needs to execute it 10:27:37 <TrueBrain> NewGRFs, GS, WASM, ... 10:27:40 <TrueBrain> it shouldn't matter 10:27:46 <andythenorth> oddly enough we have some huge mods that are mostly abstracted from the newgrf spec :P 10:27:52 <andythenorth> funny that 10:27:56 <TrueBrain> but okay, that idea came and went a few months ago :P 10:28:07 <_dp_> TrueBrain, SANE higher-level language :p 10:28:16 <TrueBrain> NML is NOT a higher-level language (sorry) 10:28:21 <TrueBrain> well, it is "higher" 10:28:27 <TrueBrain> but not in the classic definition :D 10:28:38 <andythenorth> NML is a markup language, really 10:28:43 <andythenorth> it's just XHTML 10:29:06 <andythenorth> nooooo....let's not debate that trolling point 10:29:21 <TrueBrain> well, this would have been good for a livestream, but I guess here it is already ;) 10:30:00 <TrueBrain> so to come back to your original idea andythenorth , no I do not think a "bleeding edge" branch is going to change much 10:30:08 <_dp_> it's perpetually here :p 10:30:10 <TrueBrain> as our problem is more in: what do we consider part of the base game 10:30:19 <andythenorth> I wondered a different angle 10:30:26 <andythenorth> what *couldn't* be made content-ish? 10:30:33 <andythenorth> - network code? 10:30:35 <andythenorth> - saveload? 10:30:39 <andythenorth> - pathfinding? 10:30:45 <TrueBrain> network code is simple to make scriptable 10:30:49 <TrueBrain> same with saveload 10:30:52 <_dp_> README xD 10:30:54 <TrueBrain> they both already are, kinda 10:30:54 <andythenorth> - blitter? 10:31:05 <TrueBrain> see, blitter should always be part of the core game 10:31:15 <TrueBrain> more to argue: map-bits 10:31:26 <TrueBrain> in the current setup, that cannot be pushed to a mod 10:33:46 <TrueBrain> but yeah, full circle: the README describes how to judge PRs 10:33:54 <TrueBrain> but closing the UI PRs with: someone should make this scriptable 10:33:58 <TrueBrain> is difficult :) 10:34:27 <andythenorth> so what *shouldn't* be moddable? 10:34:50 <TrueBrain> blitter, sorter, map 10:34:54 <TrueBrain> (for now) 10:35:06 <TrueBrain> audio / video basically 10:35:21 <andythenorth> I started playing OpenTTD exactly when people started to switch from TTDP to OpenTTD 10:35:23 <TrueBrain> fonts, rendering, ... :P 10:35:39 <andythenorth> the commitment to content was a big reason I think OpenTTD got the playerbase 10:35:55 <TrueBrain> we strongly disagree on history there, but that is not a discussion for now :) 10:35:58 <andythenorth> we'd tend to look at 'TTDP patch developers lost interest' and 'the code was getting too complex' but eh 10:36:17 <andythenorth> I never even considered TTDP, OpenTTD was clearly just cooler 10:36:42 <andythenorth> holdouts all be like 'custom bridgeheads, programmable signals' 10:36:51 <andythenorth> andythenorth be like 'yes but UKRS2 and NARS' 10:36:54 <TrueBrain> I am going to ignore your current story, and just continue with the previous ;) 10:36:58 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7912 <- we need more PRs like this 10:37:41 <_dp_> I need more pr's like this! xD 10:37:47 <TrueBrain> one of the more annoying issues for me is, that you can only have 1 GS (a correct limitation btw) 10:37:48 <_dp_> not sure anyone else does :p 10:38:00 <Wolf01> I played TTDP a lot before OpenTTD but at a certain point I felt like it was missing the will of improve, maybe really because "it couldn't be done" 10:38:09 <TrueBrain> as what I would love to do, is take the whole inflation blablabla code out, and put it in a GS 10:38:14 <TrueBrain> and just auto-download it, or what-ever 10:38:17 <andythenorth> TrueBrain +1 10:38:37 <TrueBrain> would remove it completely as setting too 10:38:38 <andythenorth> 'economy' has a proper-domain problem 10:38:40 <TrueBrain> done with that inflation crap 10:38:47 <andythenorth> it's pulled between GS, client, and newgrf 10:38:53 <andythenorth> we talked about this once and you made a spec 10:38:59 <_dp_> TrueBrain, yep, a lot of "original" game mechanics can just go into a mod of some kind 10:39:15 <TrueBrain> I did that with the AI ... so many places in the code was doing special shit for the AI 10:39:17 <TrueBrain> it was hilarious 10:39:24 <_dp_> what I'd like to see for a base game is a very extensible sandbox 10:39:30 <TrueBrain> ^^ 10:39:33 <andythenorth> +99 10:39:41 <TrueBrain> this was the motion back in 2007-2009 10:39:49 <TrueBrain> but progress slowed :D 10:39:54 <andythenorth> my point about TTDP was only 'why did we lose momentum' 10:40:09 <andythenorth> like...getting a newgrf patch in now is like pulling teeth 10:40:20 <andythenorth> and repeat for other things 10:41:08 <TrueBrain> so regarding new features .. a lot of them balance between: this should be in a mod, but currently you cannot do that, so .. we accept it? or deny it? 10:41:22 <andythenorth> if I was king (fortunately am not) 10:41:26 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7745 is a good example of that 10:41:27 <andythenorth> *mostly* deny 10:41:32 <andythenorth> accept a few to keep things moving 10:41:37 <TrueBrain> but with denying, you halt innovation too 10:41:39 <andythenorth> defer most of the rest to patchpacks like JGR 10:41:45 <TrueBrain> which leads to this whole conversation :D 10:41:55 <andythenorth> depends if we think we can evolve the content APIs 10:42:03 *** Samu has joined #openttd 10:42:05 <andythenorth> if the content APIs have gone down a dead end, and are stuck 10:42:15 <andythenorth> then open the floodgates, accept anything that isn't broken 10:42:21 <TrueBrain> what would be nice to solve, is to have cooperative GSes, of sorts 10:42:22 <andythenorth> because the game is fucked anyway at that point 10:42:27 <TrueBrain> no clue how that would look btw, but .. yeah 10:42:38 <andythenorth> if we can get the content APIs off life support, then we have a future :D 10:42:49 <_dp_> TrueBrain, you mean ones that work with each other? 10:42:57 <TrueBrain> _dp_: yup 10:43:05 <TrueBrain> so one that does town growth 10:43:12 <TrueBrain> one that does economy 10:43:15 <TrueBrain> or one that does both 10:43:26 <andythenorth> we looked before at ideas like claiming 'write' for parts of the API 10:43:32 <andythenorth> but it all seemed kind of odd 10:43:55 <TrueBrain> Factorio just lets mods deal with the issue :P 10:44:24 <TrueBrain> but yes, it is a difficult issue to solve for OpenTTD 10:44:29 <andythenorth> it's a known problem in computing no? Either you can write to another programme's memory space, or you're 100% sandboxed? 10:44:40 <andythenorth> the first one has....consequences 10:44:45 <TrueBrain> it is a bit more subtle for OpenTTD 10:44:57 <TrueBrain> for example, you could have that a town gets assigned to a GS with TownGrowth routines 10:45:03 <TrueBrain> no problem if you have 20 GSes 10:45:06 <TrueBrain> just 1 town has 1 GS assigned 10:45:15 <TrueBrain> which is a bit the middle ground from what you describe 10:45:31 <andythenorth> hmm 10:45:34 <TrueBrain> (we do that with companies now, and assigning AIs) 10:45:41 <andythenorth> reminds me of trying to compose modules in music systems 10:45:46 <andythenorth> like Midi modules and stuff 10:45:54 <andythenorth> 'you have 8 soundbank slots, what do you want in them' 10:46:13 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 10:46:30 <TrueBrain> but yeah, lot of conflict resolvement is needed :) 10:46:55 <TrueBrain> NewGRFs work like this too btw 10:47:01 <TrueBrain> multiple can work in the same domain 10:47:18 <andythenorth> https://reverb.com/news/a-look-at-5-musicians-and-their-massive-modular-rigs 10:47:29 <TrueBrain> well, I can see this happening for towns .. instead of "GS", it is more like a TownAI 10:47:43 <TrueBrain> a GS can register 1 or more Town AIs, for all I care :P 10:47:45 <andythenorth> so the proper boundary of the sandbox could be town 10:48:00 <TrueBrain> in the same way a vehicle is assigned to a NewGRF, so to say 10:48:18 <andythenorth> nielsm had a related idea for an entity we don't have...'regions' 10:48:25 <andythenorth> which could be arbitrary 10:48:32 <andythenorth> so a script can influence a block of map tiles 10:48:35 <TrueBrain> multi-climate maps! 10:48:43 <_dp_> biomes! xD 10:48:46 <TrueBrain> :D 10:48:50 <andythenorth> well... 10:49:01 <TrueBrain> this is an OpenTTD that would work btw, all these ideas 10:49:08 <TrueBrain> but the current set of features in PRs .... do not 10:49:38 <andythenorth> I would continue accepting certain features just to show progress and encourage good contributors 10:49:55 <andythenorth> but I would be much happier to see content API transformed :P 10:49:55 <_dp_> they're too big for the current situation unfortunately 10:50:20 <andythenorth> I would want to know for PRs, 'does this set us in stone' 10:50:28 <andythenorth> or can it be removed / changed / moved to content later? 10:50:52 <TrueBrain> yeah, but that means we never get those APIs :) 10:50:58 <andythenorth> hmm 10:51:00 <TrueBrain> as there is zero incentive :) 10:51:13 <TrueBrain> take the "disable economy" PR 10:51:19 <TrueBrain> in this idea, that should never been merged 10:51:20 * _dp_ looks at his "wasm" branch 10:51:22 <_dp_> sigh.... 10:51:28 <TrueBrain> as we should make an API that controls it 10:51:33 <TrueBrain> it is just easier to merge that now 10:51:36 <andythenorth> tangent: is there a rationale for not moving the original vehicles to newgrf? I've offered to help do it multiple times, but I can't remember why I was told it was a bad idea 10:51:40 <TrueBrain> but it motivates nobody to make that API :) 10:51:53 <andythenorth> something something, we can't ship it 10:51:53 <Wolf01> What about trying to write down a roadmap? 10:52:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am honestly curious about that reasons why that is a bad idea; I can think of a few that need some attention, but yeah :) 10:52:37 <TrueBrain> _dp_: if you already have that, would be nice/funny, honestly :D 10:52:41 <TrueBrain> URL? 10:52:41 <andythenorth> I have a mental list of things that confused new players 10:52:53 <andythenorth> repeatedly, adding FIRS or ECS and having no vehicles 10:52:54 <_dp_> TrueBrain, it's pretty much empty... 10:52:55 <Wolf01> Share? 10:53:02 <TrueBrain> _dp_: whhhyyyyyyy :P 10:53:07 <_dp_> TrueBrain, I'm mostly experimenting with building tools atm 10:53:12 <_dp_> and other ui 10:53:31 <TrueBrain> I so would like to be able to have mods change the OpenTTD UI btw .. 10:53:37 <TrueBrain> I don't want the close button where it is 10:53:39 <andythenorth> +1 10:53:48 <andythenorth> even Apple allows modding the UI 10:53:58 <andythenorth> the perception is they don't, but my UI is customised 10:54:07 <andythenorth> there are endless prefs files buried in macOS 10:54:23 <_dp_> idk, imo, ui is not the part that needs modding the most 10:54:27 <andythenorth> what they don't do...is expose billions of settings to Grandma 10:54:40 <TrueBrain> _dp_: that depends on how much it frustrates you :P :P 10:54:43 <andythenorth> nor do they care about breaking history 10:55:03 <_dp_> or rather, it needs ui for mods but not modding base ui... 10:55:06 <Samu> wow TrueBrain closed 8009 10:55:13 <TrueBrain> anyway, most active devs used to be 18 year-olds with a lot of free time ... we need more of those again :) 10:55:14 <Samu> oh well :( so much tinkering for nothing 10:55:32 <Wolf01> I would like the mods to be able to define their own UI or inject stuff into the current one, but not how the UI appear or works :P 10:55:36 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I called it! 10:55:44 <andythenorth> Samu no, you learnt something! 10:55:46 <_dp_> TrueBrain, yeah, preferabbly with at least 5 years of experience :p 10:55:52 <andythenorth> shipping is not the outcome! 10:56:01 <Wolf01> It's more a question of consistency and to not have different mods incompatible because they want to change the same thing 10:56:15 <Samu> it's not that much different to the problem that existed with road vehicles approaching their destination 10:57:12 <TrueBrain> Wolf01 / _dp_ : you are fully allowed to have your own opinion about modding base UI, but damn, it would be awesome to have :D I can fully picture it ... a mod can say where the close button is .. what double-click does ... 10:57:24 <Wolf01> Or at least, if you want to mod the UI appearance you have a theme grf, and only one loaded at a time 10:57:29 <TrueBrain> owh, the joy I will have to not have everything in reverse from what I am used to :P 10:57:34 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: yes! 10:57:58 <andythenorth> scriptable UI :D https://cdm.link/files/2014/08/cyrusrexmodularrig.jpg 10:58:08 <TrueBrain> but as we are talking about this, I think that is the general solution .. have 1 script assigned per domain entity 10:58:13 <_dp_> TrueBrain, well, I have cmclient for that :p 10:58:22 <_dp_> but I guess it counts as a mod of sorts... 10:58:25 <TrueBrain> :D 10:58:29 <andythenorth> TrueBrain so we just make a list of entities.... 10:58:31 <andythenorth> done! 10:59:07 <Samu> what was wrong with my wording of the issue? the docking tile is one problem, and the ship curve penalty is another 10:59:18 <Samu> both contribute to "ship is lost" 10:59:37 <Samu> that PR works on the docking tile problem 10:59:55 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 11:00:12 <TrueBrain> _dp_: are there good libraries to embed wasm in applications btw? 11:00:14 <Samu> i didn't work on the ship curve penalty, because that can be easily adjusted with setting different costs 11:00:43 <_dp_> TrueBrain, there are some, didn't use enough to tell if they're good 11:01:01 <TrueBrain> as that would solve performance issues for certain parts :P 11:01:34 <_dp_> not sure about "solve" but shouldn't make it worse at the very least xD 11:02:13 <TrueBrain> fair enough :D 11:02:22 <TrueBrain> I am so tempted to fork OpenTTD, you have no idea :P 11:02:28 <andythenorth> +1 11:02:39 * _dp_ already has 2 forks :p 11:02:45 <andythenorth> it's the in-thing 11:03:04 <andythenorth> if I was such a devloloper I would have done a patchpack 11:03:08 <andythenorth> wasn't * 11:03:11 * andythenorth can't even type 11:03:16 <TrueBrain> I am not interested in creating a patch pack 11:03:20 <TrueBrain> 0.00000 interest :P 11:04:15 <andythenorth> OpenTTDToo 11:04:15 <_dp_> well, I kinda have to... there's a lot of cb and other goal-specific stuff that doesn't rly belong in the base game... 11:04:23 <andythenorth> MoreOpenTTD 11:04:26 <Wolf01> NotOpenTTD 11:04:31 <andythenorth> TrueBrain the name is the important thing 11:04:32 <andythenorth> we trust you 11:04:34 <_dp_> not until it gets moddable ui and everything at least :p 11:04:38 <andythenorth> but we need to decide the name together 11:04:56 <andythenorth> the rest is all...fine 11:05:03 <TrueBrain> I have frosch123 to pick names for me :P 11:05:20 <andythenorth> TruOpenTTD 11:05:28 <andythenorth> OpenTruTD 11:05:35 <andythenorth> hmm radical solution 11:05:38 <andythenorth> OpenTTD? 11:05:57 <_dp_> OpenTTD cash! :p 11:07:42 <TrueBrain> "Pause on savegame load if ctrl key is pressed." <- some patches in JGRPP are cute :) 11:07:47 <TrueBrain> I wonder how many people use that functionality :) 11:08:09 <_dp_> hm... I made a setting for that... 11:08:09 <Wolf01> What about allowing players to decide a feature to be merged every now and then? 11:08:10 <andythenorth> telemetry! 11:08:39 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: that is how this conversation started :D 11:08:46 <Wolf01> Oh, right 11:08:48 <TrueBrain> it is why were considering a livestream 11:08:53 <TrueBrain> but andythenorth made most of that mute now :P 11:09:19 <_dp_> https://github.com/citymania-org/cmclient/commit/f2b6576d8f7644a94a32256459fad8e0eba6b248 11:09:52 <_dp_> quite useful for debugging, especially desyncs 11:09:59 <TrueBrain> same problem, different solution :D 11:11:24 <_dp_> btw, when is the livestream? 11:11:40 <_dp_> mb I'll prepare some stuff to talk about too 11:11:45 <andythenorth> this week 11:11:46 <_dp_> not that I can talk well... 11:11:52 <andythenorth> I think we get a better stream now 11:12:01 <andythenorth> so many meta issues could have derailed it 11:13:00 <TrueBrain> _dp_: not talk well, as in, volume-wise, or english-wise? :) 11:13:09 <TrueBrain> as when you hear my accent, you are going to laugh so hard :P 11:13:13 <_dp_> english 11:13:19 <_dp_> 0 practice :( 11:13:43 <TrueBrain> I haven't spoken English in months :D 11:13:49 <TrueBrain> but that doesn't stop me, I promise you :P 11:14:04 <_dp_> well, yeah, but I haven't spoken like ... ever :p 11:14:12 <Wolf01> Use a text to speech :P 11:14:21 <TrueBrain> okay, that is a higher barrier :) 11:14:38 <TrueBrain> well, one day has to be the first of many more to come :P 11:15:05 <TrueBrain> regarding livestream: technically it is all setup, I have the script in my head, will write it down today .. need to make some scenes to make it a bit pretty 11:15:11 <TrueBrain> other than that, we mainly have to test it out :p 11:17:00 <andythenorth> TrueBrain I usually imagine you are my friend Peter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2Xbqp9JHLE 11:17:43 <andythenorth> wrt accent :P 11:32:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 11:39:24 * andythenorth went looking in the past https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=400836 11:39:50 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 11:47:03 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: much worse :P 11:47:16 <andythenorth> well we'll know soon enough 11:47:43 <TrueBrain> pam pam pammmmm 11:47:57 <TrueBrain> only problem, I lack motivation today 11:48:03 <andythenorth> it's interesting in the older changelogs 11:48:07 <andythenorth> they're often huge 11:48:27 <andythenorth> but many of the changes are fixes to gameplay additions in the client 11:48:43 <andythenorth> e.g. "Fix: smooth economy was still broken" etc 11:49:08 <andythenorth> (made up example) 11:49:46 * andythenorth needs some kind of map 11:52:58 <TrueBrain> tried maps.google.com ? 11:53:19 <andythenorth> thanks I will look 11:53:57 <andythenorth> I use stuff like this for changing systems https://grf.farm/images/1+(1).jpeg 11:54:02 <andythenorth> https://grf.farm/images/1+(2).jpeg 11:54:09 <andythenorth> https://grf.farm/images/2.jpeg 11:54:18 <andythenorth> usually with a pencil and 1 or 2 sheets of A4 paper 11:54:35 <andythenorth> complex software is more like a factory, but tends to be modelled as a maths problem 11:54:40 <andythenorth> doesn't help 11:54:51 <andythenorth> or we automate producing docs, to save time, which tells us what it is 11:54:56 <andythenorth> but not what it should be 12:01:15 <andythenorth> but maps you say? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Svalbard,+Svalbard+and+Jan+Mayen/ 12:02:32 <LordAro> andythenorth: https://bananas.openttd.org/package/scenario/000000bc 12:02:51 <TrueBrain> lol ... do I want to know why you knew that? :P 12:02:54 <andythenorth> oo 12:03:10 <LordAro> TrueBrain: i didn't, but it seemed like the sort of place that would already have one 12:03:14 * andythenorth must now play OpenTTD 12:03:16 <TrueBrain> lol 12:03:30 <andythenorth> extensive steel industry required on one arctic island 12:04:09 <LordAro> link is dead though 12:04:20 <andythenorth> boo it's a scenario not a heightmap 12:05:45 <LordAro> website is super obnoxious 12:07:09 <andythenorth> scriptable UI....scriptable economy 12:07:15 <andythenorth> what about....daylength! 12:07:26 * andythenorth looking for interesting / difficult cases 12:08:06 <LordAro> s scriptable daylength 12:09:05 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 12:09:43 <_dp_> scriptable life :p 12:11:09 <andythenorth> it would be trivial for newgrf industry to support a production multiplier 12:11:22 <andythenorth> which seems to be a dependency for daylength patches 12:11:50 * andythenorth just using this as example, not trying to spec daylength 12:11:55 <LordAro> mm 12:12:05 <andythenorth> like...what are the core loops of the game? 12:12:15 <andythenorth> and what frequency, and how do they communicate? 12:16:10 <andythenorth> there's probably pacemaker loops drawing to the screen, and for responding to user input, and for network code? 12:16:59 <milek7> there's one loop 12:20:08 <andythenorth> is there a completion-time goal for the loop? 12:20:17 <andythenorth> one loop seems...unusual 12:22:48 <LordAro> @calc 1/30 12:22:49 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 0.03333333333333333 12:22:58 <LordAro> ^ that many ms 12:22:58 <nielsm> the entire game runs single-threaded, there really isn't much parallelism at all 12:23:30 <andythenorth> I guess my question needs clarifying 12:23:41 <andythenorth> it's always possible to draw a production system as one loop 12:23:44 <nielsm> but you're talking about gameplay right? 12:23:46 <andythenorth> input -> box -> output 12:23:52 <andythenorth> but there are usually subsidiary loops 12:23:56 <andythenorth> and they usually interact 12:24:32 <andythenorth> like...there isn't just one loop, because already we know there's a resource-limited AI loop, and a GS loop 12:24:37 <andythenorth> and periodic loops 12:25:22 <andythenorth> nielsm I don't know what I'm talking about :) 12:26:35 <andythenorth> this https://grf.farm/images/1+" target="_blank">https://grf.farm/images/1+(1).jpeg is the same loop as https://grf.farm/images/1+" target="_blank">https://grf.farm/images/1+(2).jpeg 12:26:59 <andythenorth> but one is more interesting for making changes 12:27:13 <TrueBrain> you might be better off learning some CS terms, instead of trying to use terms from a completely different industry :P It might be just me :D 12:27:47 <andythenorth> I did wonder 12:27:58 <andythenorth> or CS could learn some terms from systems analysis :P 12:28:15 <andythenorth> but I have to work with the audience here so... 12:28:20 <TrueBrain> you would be surprised how complete CS is in a lot of this stuff :) 12:30:10 <andythenorth> ok let's translate! 12:30:20 <andythenorth> we have a complex system and we don't have a map! 12:30:24 <andythenorth> but we have lots of code 12:30:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8398: Change: Distribute left over cargo to stations according to the highest remainder https://git.io/JL2If 12:31:00 <andythenorth> so like...what do we do to make changes? 12:31:02 <andythenorth> UML or something? 12:32:59 <andythenorth> should I be reading? https://docs.openttd.org/source/ 12:33:13 <TrueBrain> what are you trying to solve, is the first question :) 12:33:51 <andythenorth> having a map of some kind, pictures...words...anything 12:34:03 <andythenorth> so that we can look at the whole 12:34:04 <TrueBrain> that is a solution; what are you trying to solve :) 12:34:10 <andythenorth> not the implentation of a part 12:34:24 <andythenorth> ask me why :P 12:34:26 <milek7> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/openttd.cpp#L1351 12:36:18 <andythenorth> why do you want a map andythenorth? 12:36:30 <andythenorth> well because it might be cool 12:36:49 <andythenorth> but also because we might understand how to change things that interact, instead of being stuck with local maxima 12:36:58 <andythenorth> why do we want do that? 12:37:03 <andythenorth> because it might be cool 12:37:10 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: what are you, 5? "ask me this ask me this" .. please :P 12:38:03 <andythenorth> yes it's quite funny 12:38:20 <milek7> map of what? call graph? 12:39:36 <andythenorth> map of where we want OpenTTD to be 12:39:39 <andythenorth> could just be words 12:39:42 <andythenorth> call it plan 12:39:43 <andythenorth> idea 12:39:45 <andythenorth> whatever works 12:39:48 <TrueBrain> that is a completely different map :P 12:39:49 <andythenorth> but not spec 12:39:53 <andythenorth> spec comes after that 12:40:04 <andythenorth> vision, whatever shit works 12:40:14 <TrueBrain> so you are looking for an architectural picture? 12:40:16 <andythenorth> vision is management nonsense usually :P 12:40:19 <andythenorth> architecture! 12:40:19 <andythenorth> yes 12:40:35 <andythenorth> but not as like 'C++ classes' architecture, or UML 12:40:42 <andythenorth> more like 'how it all fits' 12:41:38 <LordAro> such a diagram would have to be manually created, or be extremely complex 12:41:40 <LordAro> i think 12:42:08 <andythenorth> what would be simpler? 12:42:22 <andythenorth> like...we could draw how the client works with bananas really quickly, yes/no? 12:42:31 <andythenorth> like 5 boxes and arrows 12:42:53 <TrueBrain> more a problem you are asking me to do my dayjob, free of charge :P 12:42:59 <andythenorth> or mine :P 12:43:26 <andythenorth> ok I pay you, and you pay me, and we're square? 12:43:39 <andythenorth> just ask for donations on livestream? 12:43:59 <TrueBrain> corona made me pretty round, honestly 12:44:24 <andythenorth> there's some term for that 12:44:29 * andythenorth can't remember it 12:44:36 <TrueBrain> fat 12:44:43 <andythenorth> ouch 12:45:09 <milek7> TrueBrain: just not sure if you noticed, around 00:41 I had written something about keyauth 12:45:21 <andythenorth> like...we could delete inflation and move it to GS, right? So that would be nice incremental improvement 12:45:35 <TrueBrain> milek7: I saw it, yes, tnx :) Did not read it yet .. having a day of not wanting to do ANYTHING :D :D 12:45:54 * andythenorth is avoiding making different ISO containers for newgrf trains 12:46:17 <andythenorth> and playing Blitz badly 12:54:34 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 13:08:34 <Samu> I'm so bad at explaining things, I hope that reply makes sense 13:10:07 <Samu> my example doesn't help my cause 13:10:40 <Samu> oh, nvm, it helps. 2nd station has less rating than the first 13:12:11 * Timberwolf needs newgrf telemetry. 13:13:13 <andythenorth> hmm I fail too much at Blitz 13:26:32 <_dp_> andythenorth, we can't move inflation to GS right now, it works asynchronously and can't be used for fully implementing gameplay stuff 13:26:39 <_dp_> gs can only flip the switch basically 13:26:54 <TrueBrain> it has no callbacks, basically? 13:26:58 <_dp_> but in case of inflation it already can do that and it solvess nothing 13:27:07 <_dp_> TrueBrain, yep 13:27:16 <TrueBrain> event-based :D 13:27:33 <_dp_> pain-based :p 13:27:41 <TrueBrain> my main issue is, I do not understand NewGRF 13:27:46 <TrueBrain> it is just ... weird to me :P 13:28:04 <_dp_> I kinda do... but it's still weird xD 13:29:49 <TrueBrain> using Squirrel for callbacks will be rather annoying 13:30:11 <TrueBrain> so a NewGRF is the next candidate 13:30:19 <TrueBrain> I just have no clue if you can program like inflation into a NewGRF :D 13:30:52 <_dp_> newgrfs is kind of a right thing with performance and sandboxing but then it was just hacked into a graphics format 13:31:26 <TrueBrain> this is why I think this can only be really solved by making a high-level language 13:31:35 <TrueBrain> which can be transformed to what-ever is needed from OpenTTD to do its job 13:32:43 <michi_cc> I think we had that point before :) A high level language would definitely be nice, but even Java/Rust/C++/whatever end up as CPU opcodes, so it doesn't invalidate NewGRF itself. 13:32:56 <TrueBrain> exactly my point :) 13:33:15 <TrueBrain> it wouldn't surprise me if it translates into NewGRF 13:33:15 <michi_cc> For the specific case of NewGRF economy, it's missing the proper CPU instructions though, but that is "just" a somebody has to do it thing. 13:33:42 <TrueBrain> what do you mean with CPU instructions in this case? 13:33:46 <TrueBrain> jnz? inc? 13:33:58 <michi_cc> Action 1/2/3 chains. 13:34:18 <michi_cc> With the right props, variables and callbacks. 13:34:19 <_dp_> I just feel it's much easier replacing it with wasm then building anything sane on top of newgrfs 13:34:24 <TrueBrain> wish I knew what that meant :D Have to read NewGRF specs some day ... :P 13:34:46 <TrueBrain> _dp_: how it is implemented in OpenTTD is not as relevant as how you write it, is my stance basically 13:34:51 <TrueBrain> wasm, squirrel, lua, NewGRF .. 13:35:17 <michi_cc> NewGRF is at a very high-level view just a decision tree. 13:35:38 <TrueBrain> ah; and storage? Slot-based? Stack-based? 13:35:45 <TrueBrain> (sorry for the stupid questions, but the specs are boring to read) 13:36:18 <michi_cc> Depends :) Mostly slot based, except for some quirky things like text stack. 13:36:36 <TrueBrain> so it really is a random collection of stuff :D 13:36:55 <nielsm> we really need to recruit a CS grad student to write a compiler from NewGRF to machine code 13:37:04 <nielsm> make a thesis of it 13:37:13 <TrueBrain> what good would that do? :) 13:37:20 <nielsm> performance! 13:37:26 <michi_cc> It is not a completely coherently defined structure, which is e.g. why NML doesn't do stations, as they are build completely different to all other features. 13:38:02 <TrueBrain> which makes totally sense given the history of NewGRF 13:38:45 <michi_cc> There might be arguments why the structure chosen for stations is better than the alternatives, but I don't write enough NewGRFs to know that :p 13:39:20 <_dp_> newgrfs are also terrible on api level atm, it basically feels like it was basicallyy haked into existing stuff 13:39:52 <TrueBrain> I think replacing NewGRF in any way shape or form is just creating a new problem, more than solving anything :) 13:39:54 <michi_cc> Yeah, feature 1 was written by TTDP developer A, feature 2 by developer B, and each did what they liked more/found easier at that time. 13:40:12 <TrueBrain> same with Squirrel btw 13:40:21 <TrueBrain> lua would have been better, in hindsight, but .. here we are :D 13:40:28 <_dp_> like instead of having api point with some default options it has some hardcoded stuff interacting weirdly with newgrf callback on top of it 13:40:32 <michi_cc> Later new features (like objects) tried to follow one of the existing structures and not invent a new structure. 13:41:27 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 13:45:09 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 13:51:33 <LordAro> TrueBrain: how much effort to build a squirrelvm in lua? :p 13:51:35 <_dp_> TrueBrain, but it will be an exciting new problem using a modern technology 13:51:47 <_dp_> Ap 13:51:48 <_dp_> :p 13:54:40 <Timberwolf> Other than the convenience of being able to use NML, I sometimes find myself wishing roadtypes followed the same system as stations with the ground tile and layouts. 13:55:37 <Timberwolf> I spent a fair amount of time working around things where you always get a specific ground tile or things always appearing in a certain order to the sprite sorter. 13:57:56 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:57:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 14:00:19 <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8282 this PR doesn't add a savegame conversion between the old setting with the new, why was this accepted? I thought that a conversion was needed 14:01:11 <Samu> just asking, not trying to offend 14:02:56 <FLHerne> Samu: It doesn't change the size or previous values of the stored setting, and only adds a new one 14:03:13 <glx> and the new values are compatible with the old ones 14:06:12 <Samu> hmm, but the setting name has changed, i wonder if the saveload does detect that 14:06:42 <Samu> better test it 14:07:04 <glx> andythenorth: the issue is really that you define way too much switches/spritesets before their real use, and indeed reordering them is the only viable solution (and probably will never be done by nmlc) 14:07:15 <andythenorth> glx thanks :) 14:07:53 <andythenorth> that must have been boring to look at all those switches 14:08:16 <glx> basically you defined all 16px, 24px and 32px before the first big 16px switch 14:08:27 <andythenorth> yup 14:08:45 <glx> so 24px and 32px just eats IDs without real need 14:08:49 <andythenorth> so 3x the required spritesets 14:09:01 <FLHerne> There's not really any reason NML shouldn't reorder those 14:09:18 <andythenorth> I'm potato / potato 14:09:27 <andythenorth> there's not really any reason newgrf authors shouldn't do that 14:09:29 <glx> nml can reorder, but it's not easy to do I think 14:09:37 <_dp_> Samu, setting name doesn't affect savegames, only size and position :p 14:09:53 <glx> it needs to analyse the references graph 14:10:37 <LordAro> _dp_: Samu's never let explanations get in the way of them testing something 14:11:12 <FLHerne> _dp_: I think Samu has a point though 14:11:26 <andythenorth> _dp_ "we can't move inflation to GS right now, it works asynchronously and can't be used for fully implementing gameplay stuff" so what would need to change? 14:11:30 <FLHerne> It won't break savegames, but it'll break people's config files? 14:11:38 <andythenorth> to be at the destination of 'can move inflation'? :) 14:12:20 <FLHerne> If people have chosen "smooth_economy = false", this will reset the behaviour in new games to smooth 14:12:45 <FLHerne> Unless I've also missed something 14:12:53 <_dp_> FLHerne, hm, interesting point, dunno if that will affect configs 14:13:09 <_dp_> but I know it has been done several times in the past 14:13:12 <Samu> also, "type" is such a generic name for the setting 14:14:07 <FLHerne> _dp_: Adding a new value has been done before, are you sure that renaming the setting at the same time has? 14:14:28 <FLHerne> (without some compat code) 14:14:54 <_dp_> hm, yeah, was thinking about size only here... 14:15:12 <_dp_> though I'm pretty sure there is no compat code for old config settings 14:20:02 <Samu> AIs retrieve this new setting via: AIGameSettings.GetValue("type") 14:20:19 <Samu> used to be AIGameSettings.GetValue("smooth_economy") 14:20:30 <Samu> type is a bit.... weak name 14:20:48 <_dp_> yeah, configs settings are changed easily 14:20:50 <_dp_> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/2f7de4fd99d1ccec63c54439bc01b1090aaa0b6e#diff-32e10f0bcde7f768e6198eb97282dc4a49b00404160c6d7859ec08978cc117c8 14:26:20 <glx> https://docs.openttd.org/ai-api/classAIGameSettings.html <-- at least API is clear about settings :) 14:28:10 <glx> Samu: you can also use AIGameSettings.GetValue("economy.type") I think 14:30:00 <TrueBrain> <LordAro> TrueBrain: how much effort to build a squirrelvm in lua? :p <- are you weird or something? :P 14:31:16 <nielsm> transpile squirrel to lua 14:31:51 <frosch123> i would understand the other way around. lua is really crappy 14:32:01 <TrueBrain> nielsm: that would be the more sensible thing to do :P 14:32:03 <frosch123> squirrel left a way better impression on me 14:32:17 <TrueBrain> frosch123: JavaScript is crappy too; but many people write it :D 14:32:25 <TrueBrain> that is the only thing I think lua fits better in a game atm :P 14:32:27 <andythenorth> is it lunchtime? 14:32:34 <TrueBrain> but I was by no way meaning to suggest OpenTTD should do that, to be clear :) 14:32:51 <TrueBrain> we just picked Squirrel over lua, as it was "lua with classes" 14:32:56 <andythenorth> transpile python to wasm :P 14:33:02 <TrueBrain> lua now has stuff like a JIT etc 14:33:06 <TrueBrain> because many more people use it 14:33:07 <andythenorth> and if other people want other things...transpile their own wasm 14:35:11 <TrueBrain> frosch123: from a language point of view btw, I always liked Squirrel more; it is a pretty clean language implementation :) 14:35:19 <TrueBrain> too bad we made too many changes that upgrading isn't trivial :p 14:36:08 <frosch123> TrueBrain: my knowledge is 2 years old. but at that time lua had jit in an older unmaintained branch 14:36:57 <TrueBrain> don't know if lua officially has a JIT, but there are projects with small libraries that add a JIT to lua :) 14:37:02 * andythenorth lunch failed 14:37:28 <TrueBrain> https://luajit.org/ for example is a drop-in replacement for Lua 5.1 14:39:14 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 14:40:11 <LordAro> last time i checked, embedded lua was faster than embedded python 14:40:47 <TrueBrain> embedding Python is a death-sentence :P 14:40:50 <TrueBrain> just .. don't do it :D 14:41:14 <LordAro> too late 14:41:17 * LordAro cries a bit 14:41:22 <TrueBrain> yes ... I can imagine :P 14:41:31 <TrueBrain> there are Python implementations that do allow embedding real nice btw 14:41:36 <TrueBrain> just CPython is not that implementation :D 14:42:43 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] lexuslatvia opened issue #106: [lv_LV] Translator access request https://git.io/JL2a8 14:42:59 <TrueBrain> that username :D 14:43:25 <LordAro> at least we know they're applying for the right language :p 14:45:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] TrueBrain commented on issue #106: [lv_LV] Translator access request https://git.io/JL2a8 14:55:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JL2wX 14:56:33 <milek7> luajit is maintained, but only implementing lua 5.1 14:56:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8378: Remove undefined behaviour from save/load code https://git.io/JL2re 15:00:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] lexuslatvia opened issue #107: [ru_RU] Translator access request https://git.io/JL2rH 15:00:53 <TrueBrain> well, now the name no longer matches the language 15:02:37 <andythenorth> has anyone made any roblox games? :) https://developer.roblox.com/en-us/learn-roblox/all-tutorials 15:04:40 <andythenorth> this is the more relevant part https://developer.roblox.com/en-us/learn-roblox/coding-scripts 15:04:41 <TrueBrain> I build Half-Life Multiplayer Mods .. does that help? 15:04:42 * andythenorth considering it 15:05:33 <TrueBrain> well, built, not build, but who is counting 15:06:07 <frosch123> haha, i found a 16 year old webcam in my storage room 15:06:17 <TrueBrain> now the question is: DOES IT WORK?! 15:06:22 <frosch123> i has like 400x300 resolution, and 5 fps 15:06:36 <andythenorth> got a link nice 15:06:47 <frosch123> it works in vlc, it does not work in cheese. i am unsure about the discord webapp 15:06:56 <andythenorth> frosch123 make / model? I want to look up a picture of it? 15:07:18 <frosch123> i am generaly unsure about the discord webapp, maybe i need the native app instrad 15:07:31 <andythenorth> TrueBrain did you build Half-Life Rally? :P 15:07:31 <TrueBrain> it does work slightly better :) 15:07:36 <TrueBrain> No 15:08:35 * andythenorth now lost in YouTube 15:08:42 <andythenorth> it says "Checkpoint!" 15:08:49 <andythenorth> there was a game in the 90s that did that, forget which 15:08:51 <andythenorth> was classic 15:09:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Logitech-Quickcam-Express-Digital-camera/dp/B000225K5G <- it looks exactly like that 15:09:57 <frosch123> the picture is super dark though, you see about nothing of me :) 15:10:09 <andythenorth> so retro :) 15:10:23 * andythenorth now watching Quake Rally videos 15:10:26 <TrueBrain> but a new one already :P They cost like 30 euros 15:11:22 <frosch123> the alternative is to use my phone. but then i have to build a phone stand out of cardbox or so 15:11:55 <andythenorth> just blutak 15:12:09 <andythenorth> big chunk of blutak, jam phone in it 15:12:28 <andythenorth> hmm Quake Rally looks bad :D 15:12:55 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't know if you're joking, but that works for me 15:13:07 <andythenorth> FLHerne no totally serious 15:13:29 <FLHerne> I made a lot of Zoom calls with my phone blu-tacked to the top of my subwoofer 15:14:13 <andythenorth> do you route the conference call audio through the subwoofer? 15:15:13 * andythenorth running out of ways to write 'default', 'vanilla', 'standard' in Horse code :P 15:15:21 <andythenorth> maybe I should name things better 15:16:13 <FLHerne> No 15:21:42 <milek7> andythenorth: most arcade racing games had 'checkpoint!' 15:21:43 <milek7> sega rally most famous probably? 15:22:54 * andythenorth wonders if it was outrun that did it first? 15:24:21 <andythenorth> wasn't Lotus Elite Turbo 2, but that does have epic music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXYKKQyB43I 15:24:30 <frosch123> i think the linux desktop app is just the webapp in chrome 15:25:33 <michi_cc> Replace chrome with electron (chromium) and you are right. 15:25:56 <michi_cc> And valid for all desktop variants. 15:25:59 <frosch123> yes, i keep forgetting that name 15:26:21 <TrueBrain> just with a bit more intergration in the OS, so it can do a few things slightly better :) 15:26:24 <frosch123> so, not sure how to test this. TrueBrain does not accept friend requests 15:26:36 <TrueBrain> I don't do what now? :( 15:26:39 <michi_cc> Now that we have WASM, we can do ElectronTTD, too :p 15:26:48 <TrueBrain> you are "frosch" right, on Discord? 15:26:58 <frosch123> yes 15:27:55 <milek7> https://www.stef.be/bassoontracker/?file=demomods%2Flotus20.mod 15:32:06 <TrueBrain> so you can test your webcam there too frosch123 :) 15:32:31 <andythenorth> tracker! 15:32:37 * andythenorth lost for the afternoon 15:32:57 <andythenorth> thanks milek7 :D 15:33:15 <andythenorth> monthly coverdisks :P 15:33:25 <andythenorth> my kids have no idea :P 15:34:11 <frosch123> i think there is some intention that truebrain is not in the dev group, but points everyone else to it 15:34:28 <TrueBrain> I gave them explicit instructions not to make me a developer, yes :P 15:34:48 <TrueBrain> I am shocked it is working, honestly ;) 15:42:49 <frosch123> looks like i can join either with desktop mobile app, or with my phone 15:42:51 <frosch123> not both :/ 15:43:06 <TrueBrain> Teams does allow that ... Discord has some things to add :P 15:43:28 <glx> I never tried both 15:43:33 <frosch123> no idea whether anyone saw my face at some point, but maybe :) 15:43:41 <frosch123> but phone is pretty inconvient 15:43:43 <TrueBrain> no, you have to be joined too to see it 15:43:49 <TrueBrain> so buy a 30 euro webcam :P 15:43:51 <glx> I saw the camera icon for a short time 15:43:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: shops are closed :) 15:44:07 <TrueBrain> online shopping? 15:44:10 <TrueBrain> you know that concept? :P 15:44:16 <frosch123> delivery till easter? 15:44:25 <TrueBrain> you can't get at home delivery in 24h?! 15:44:52 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:45:23 <TrueBrain> well, it is 3 days currently here, as it is a bit busy :P 15:48:56 <andythenorth> there's no other option 15:49:10 <andythenorth> frosch will have to draw pictures and upload them 15:49:14 <andythenorth> really fast 15:50:56 <TrueBrain> now I need to learn Discord user management ... owh joy 15:53:18 <andythenorth> I have drawn my face for use in stream https://grf.farm/images/oof-2.png 15:53:38 <andythenorth> such art 15:53:49 <LordAro> :D 15:54:39 <TrueBrain> A+ 15:55:30 <andythenorth> FML I think I just understoof newgrf 15:55:34 <andythenorth> understood * 15:55:41 <andythenorth> for the first time ever 15:59:33 <andythenorth> maybe for vehicles only :( 16:00:08 <frosch123> looks like chromium needs a special ffmpeg lib 16:00:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8402: Add: New disaster mode that enables all disaster types regardless of era https://git.io/JL29l 16:00:13 <frosch123> let's try firefox instead 16:00:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Tell me your wisdom 16:03:16 <frosch123> nope, it directly says that ff does not work, at least something :p 16:03:32 <TrueBrain> haha 16:04:25 <supermop_Home> yo 16:04:28 <andythenorth> FLHerne I'd have to draw it I think 16:05:36 <andythenorth> I was trying to think how I could ever explain it to TB 16:05:50 <andythenorth> I figured (1) I probably can't (2) I barely understand it 16:06:16 <TrueBrain> poor andythenorth .. lost for words :D 16:08:56 <Samu> I didn't use savegame conversion too 16:09:08 <Samu> a la _dp_ 16:10:40 <Samu> but _dp_ was smart! He avoided the error I'm having alltogether 16:10:45 <andythenorth> explaining 'what' vs 'why' vs 'how' vs 'where' for newgrf :P 16:10:46 <andythenorth> oof 16:11:00 <andythenorth> 'why' might be the least useful place to start 16:12:16 <Samu> I re-used the same setting, turned it into a int8, from a bool 16:12:22 <Samu> same name of the setting 16:17:15 <frosch123> ok, the desktop app seems to have the library bundles, it detect the camera, but only shows black :) 16:17:30 <TrueBrain> well, you saw mine .. it was flickering green ... 16:17:37 <TrueBrain> I am going to use OBS to stream my pretty face 16:17:43 <TrueBrain> if you like, you can do the same btw 16:17:49 <TrueBrain> Discord is good for voice 16:17:52 <TrueBrain> that is about it :P 16:27:53 <frosch123> ok, obs understands the camera 16:28:07 <TrueBrain> cool, so we can use that 16:28:54 <frosch123> i have to get used to the not-mirrored view :) 16:29:05 <TrueBrain> you can change that if you like 16:29:09 <TrueBrain> right click, transform, flip horizontally 16:29:44 <TrueBrain> we have to make sure your left is the left for the viewers :P 16:30:01 <TrueBrain> anyway, when we test, I will give you an address to stream to 16:30:04 <frosch123> well, it's still pretty dark :) 16:30:09 <TrueBrain> I can digest that stream back in OBS :) 16:30:19 <TrueBrain> maybe we test tonight? 16:30:23 <TrueBrain> I first need dinner etc, but 16:30:31 <andythenorth> I dunno, words https://gist.githubusercontent.com/andythenorth/b256fa9c8dcb75f60b028408b067f71e/raw/691732c796d876ceab53a0dc23d839defacd80ca/gistfile1.txt 16:31:02 <frosch123> is there already a stream date? 16:31:09 <TrueBrain> "this week" 16:31:25 <andythenorth> FLHerne ^ ? 16:31:26 <frosch123> ok, so i am up-to-date :) 16:31:51 <andythenorth> I tried to stay out of all of: implementation, current spec, mention of actions, and 'why do newgrf authors do things?' 16:32:26 <TrueBrain> I just wrote down some rules in livestream-chat 16:32:43 <frosch123> yes, but i can't find the "script" :) 16:32:48 <frosch123> so i fail that item 16:32:50 <TrueBrain> DOING THAT NOW FFS :P :P 16:33:41 <TrueBrain> there, happy :) 16:34:00 <TrueBrain> let me get andythenorth in the channel too 16:35:23 <frosch123> the voice chats are locked again btw. not sure whether i am supposed to enter them myself 16:35:42 <TrueBrain> hmm .. let me check permissions :) 16:36:44 <TrueBrain> I think I fixed that 16:37:19 <frosch123> yes 16:37:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JL2bN 16:38:08 <TrueBrain> now I first get myself some dinner 16:38:14 <TrueBrain> we can test this all out a bit after if you are up for it :) 16:38:42 <frosch123> yes, this obs looks very magical to me :) 16:38:48 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JL2NY 16:39:00 <TrueBrain> it kinda is, and it works kinda simple 16:39:11 <TrueBrain> I just need to make some in-between scenes etc .. fun :D 16:56:48 <Xaroth> OBS looks more complex than it is 17:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> on this new shiny website of ours, where would i find old release versions to download? 17:04:06 <andythenorth> in the shiniest bit! 17:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i've been clicking around for like 5 minutes and can't find a reference to that being possible 17:05:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause as a service to you https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/tags 17:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean like the builds. not the source 17:05:36 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: https://cdn.openttd.org/openttd-releases/ ? 17:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: but there's no way to get to there from the website? 17:08:34 <glx> I think we never had a direct link 17:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> we found the missing link :p 17:13:04 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 17:26:57 <TrueBrain> if you are a bit creative, you can find it easily from the current release; but no, we deliberately do not link it otherwise :) 17:29:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/fhGxd 17:30:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JLafM 17:30:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JLaf9 17:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i agree with that decision 17:36:15 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Why? 17:39:19 <Xaroth> Why would you link to old versions? Isn't the whole idea that you want you userbase to run on the latest (hopefully less buggy) version? 17:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the trigger here was a person who was looking for the last version built for 9x 17:41:54 <Xaroth> Fair, but is that your intended target audience? 17:42:06 <Xaroth> I mean, for those edge cases you can always just point them to the CDN 17:42:19 <Xaroth> but the vast majority of your userbase won't be running on 9X :P 17:45:06 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: 10+ years ago there was a discussion about it, which results in: we should only download files we want people to download. I guess this was mainly as we had a lot of people who "refused" to upgrade, for all kinds of non-fact-base reasons :D 17:45:36 <TrueBrain> all I remember it was a deliberate discussion when designing this layout :) 17:45:51 <TrueBrain> and, it seems to have worked fine; this is the first request in .... how many years? :) 17:48:15 <TrueBrain> owh, and we also had the annoying issue people were pointing to the root on the CDN, instead of the our download page .. ugh .. how could I forget that blabla :P 17:48:24 <TrueBrain> so "they didn't see there was a new version" 17:49:52 <TrueBrain> why can signs end with a space, but not start with one? 17:50:03 <TrueBrain> owh, you can, but it is limited in chars 17:50:04 <TrueBrain> lol 17:51:12 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 18:01:39 <TrueBrain> okay, frosch123 is all set up .. andythenorth ! :P 18:01:54 <andythenorth> yo 18:17:53 <TrueBrain> so, we have 3 people in a stream .. who dares to be 4th? 18:26:17 <TrueBrain> can we "volunteer" people? 18:36:41 <TrueBrain> I think LordAro should make time :P 18:42:49 <frosch123> now i understand why streamers have so many screens 18:43:00 <frosch123> two is not enough, even when i am not the main streamer 18:45:14 <TrueBrain> yup ... 18:48:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8403: Feature: Reworked recessions setting to allow durations up to 10 years https://git.io/JLask 18:50:09 <LordAro> TrueBrain: need dinner first :) 18:50:23 <TrueBrain> LordAro: but are you willing to jump on stream with us this week? :D 18:51:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8403: Feature: Reworked recessions setting to allow durations up to 10 years https://git.io/JLasz 18:52:31 <andythenorth> FLHerne so newgrf vehicles demystified? :P 18:52:38 * andythenorth writes a thing....crickets :P 18:52:39 <andythenorth> oof 18:54:52 <FLHerne> andythenorth: ...I guess? It seems like a reasonable short description 18:56:56 <FLHerne> andythenorth: "Properties are mutable via callbacks which are triggered on specific game events." <- I've always thought as the callback return overriding the property rather than mutating it, but maybe that's an implementation detail or just wrong :p 18:57:18 <andythenorth> I nearly wrote it your way 18:57:22 <andythenorth> but the game engine doesn't really care 18:57:53 <andythenorth> I don't know which is the more useful description 18:57:53 <FLHerne> "can use logic in callbacks" seems a bit vague 18:57:59 <andythenorth> yes! 18:58:01 <andythenorth> what logic? 18:58:26 <andythenorth> can branch to different results 18:58:27 <LordAro> TrueBrain: in theory, yes :) 18:58:38 <TrueBrain> how to make that theory a reality? 18:59:41 <FLHerne> "callbacks are usually a decision tree, but temporary variables can be set and read anywhere within a callback to make things overcomplicated?" 19:00:05 <FLHerne> *callback evaluation 19:00:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://github.com/frosch123/OpenTTD/tree/hovercraft <- reimplemented it. probably better than before 19:01:27 <TrueBrain> but does it crash? :) 19:01:39 <frosch123> try it 19:01:43 <andythenorth> WASM build or go home 19:01:47 <frosch123> i made a basic route, and it worked 19:02:06 <frosch123> i made it less agressive than the old one 19:02:19 <frosch123> the old one allowed all tiles, this one only clear land, coast and trees 19:02:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: i may get banned, when i pr that 19:03:04 <TrueBrain> haha :D 19:04:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JLaZt 19:04:26 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 19:05:22 <frosch123> oi, i did not expect the non-english discord channel to be dutch 19:05:30 <TrueBrain> it mostly is :P 19:06:33 *** DasPoseidon has joined #openttd 19:06:54 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that is so funny :D :D :D :D 19:07:04 <FLHerne> frosch123: but why 19:07:06 <andythenorth> game needs more lolz 19:07:16 <TrueBrain> so many sorter issues :) 19:07:19 * andythenorth waiting for the linker 19:07:22 <FLHerne> trees?! 19:08:38 <TrueBrain> the pathfinder works fine too :) 19:08:47 <frosch123> TrueBrain: so when do we do a troll stream, where we show that aircraft are barely op compared to ships? 19:08:50 <andythenorth> oh now it avoids stations 19:09:20 <TrueBrain> frosch123: next livestream? (will there be a next? :P) 19:09:24 <andythenorth> ekranoplan forthcoming 19:09:47 *** DasPoseidon has quit IRC 19:09:56 <andythenorth> we can ship the hovercraft! 19:09:57 <TrueBrain> for the current livestream I wonder how many people will be completely ticked off by the intro screen 19:09:57 <andythenorth> https://www.themobilepresenter.com/images/articles/apple-after-steve-jobs_1_original.jpg 19:12:04 <Xaroth> at least 1 :P 19:17:21 <frosch123> hmm, i guess i should also allow road and rail 19:17:25 <frosch123> too each to trap the ships 19:17:28 <frosch123> *easy 19:18:26 <TrueBrain> rail .... can it .. collide with trains? :D 19:20:12 <frosch123> oh yeah, we can discuss that level crossing setting, and suggest a revenge setting 19:20:21 <frosch123> you crash my rv with your ships, i crash your trains with my ships! 19:20:46 <frosch123> s/ships/trains/ on the first one 19:20:50 <TrueBrain> can we make that one of the topics now? :D 19:20:54 <TrueBrain> better than my idea even :P 19:23:10 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 19:23:38 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 19:34:26 * andythenorth traps the hovercraft 19:39:03 <TrueBrain> so ... Wednesday 1900 GMT .. we will livestream .. it will be a disaster :P 19:39:05 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 19:39:17 <andythenorth> I freed my hovercraft 19:39:18 <TrueBrain> I hope LordAro can join too :D Does mean he needs to install Discord .... :P 19:39:28 <andythenorth> with an aqueduct over the roads 19:40:09 <FLHerne> heh 19:40:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you play on multiplayer servers often? 19:40:15 <andythenorth> rarely 19:40:27 <frosch123> but you know all the tricks :) 19:40:35 <TrueBrain> shall we "photobomb" the reddit server? :P 19:41:05 <andythenorth> I used to grief the AI back in 1994 19:41:17 <TrueBrain> you are such an old fart :P 19:41:18 <andythenorth> and I think we had it on null-modem MP 19:41:27 <andythenorth> probably I am the oldest? 19:41:40 <TrueBrain> @seen Belugas 19:41:41 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Belugas was last seen in #openttd 3 years, 37 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 23 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Belugas> yeah, a birthday :) a good friend of mine! 19:41:50 <TrueBrain> too bad :P 19:44:41 <Samu> I'm looking through my list of branches, see what I can PR 19:45:56 <Samu> https://github.com/SamuXarick/OpenTTD/branches/all, anything interesting there? 19:59:40 <Samu> auto-determine-snow-line-height isn't exactly small 19:59:56 <Samu> wondering if I can PR it 20:03:41 <Xaroth> Bit difficult to judge if something is interesting by just a branch name.. usually a PR comes with a rationale and description... those are more telling. 20:07:32 *** sla_ro|master2 has joined #openttd 20:09:57 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:12:10 <andythenorth> hmm I should do some Iron Horse then 20:12:15 <andythenorth> been avoiding it all day...with talk 20:14:10 <TrueBrain> https://www.twitch.tv/openttdlive/about <- be there or be square 20:24:57 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 20:36:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc updated pull request #7589: Change: Always apply inflation from 1920 to 2090, no matter the game start year. https://git.io/fjWc7 20:52:21 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 20:54:43 <andythenorth> so....move default vehicles to newgrf then? 20:55:24 <andythenorth> I guess there's the whole 'disable original vehicles' thing :P 20:55:26 <andythenorth> oof 20:55:43 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 21:04:38 <michi_cc> Well, the default vehicles are basically part of the NewGRF spec. After all, they provide default values for props that are not set. 21:04:58 <andythenorth> ok so that's 2 reasons 21:05:23 * andythenorth making a list, checking it twice 21:06:14 <frosch123> you will end up with the newgrf preset idea again :) 21:06:24 <michi_cc> To not break old NewGRFs, the 'default vehicle newgrf' could only contain an enable/disable, but the prop values itself need to be embedded. 21:06:33 <frosch123> select preset: default temperate, firs temperate, custom, ... 21:06:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8404: Feature: Snow line height can be autodetermined upon world generation https://git.io/JLa2N 21:07:34 <michi_cc> It is, as often, a question of how long to keep backwards compatibility. 21:10:25 <andythenorth> frosch123 this seems like a....good thing? :P 21:10:45 <andythenorth> I am just poking around ideas that (1) move more things to content whilst (2) delivering something for players 21:16:07 *** sla_ro|master2 has quit IRC 21:21:59 <andythenorth> default vehicles in newgrf could gain cargo class support 21:22:04 <andythenorth> if we dared...vary from the original game 21:22:36 <andythenorth> then we could stop seeing repeated reddit threads about 'I have no vehicles for FIRS / ECS / XIS / Auzind / etc' 21:24:53 *** Laedek has quit IRC 21:28:24 <Samu> https://i.imgur.com/KT7wP1t.png 21:28:29 <Samu> that warning 21:32:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8404: Feature: Snow line height can be autodetermined upon world generation https://git.io/JLa2N 21:32:16 <Samu> I hope it's happy now 21:32:46 <andythenorth> in the promised land of everything-is-content 21:32:52 <andythenorth> terrain gen would be first against the world :) 21:34:00 <_dp_> oh yeah, terragen 21:34:14 <_dp_> one of the keystones of my "everything is hopeless but servers" attitude :p 21:38:03 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:38:09 <andythenorth> blacken is so labour saving 21:38:17 <andythenorth> I can just type ' instead of " 21:38:22 <andythenorth> saves wear on my shift key 21:38:28 <andythenorth> then black fixes it 21:38:46 <andythenorth> _dp_ if everything was content, you could have the same attitude, but in content :P 21:40:50 <Samu> yes! it's happy now! 21:49:15 * andythenorth dedicates this song to python black :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ZoHfJZACA 21:54:01 *** Samu has quit IRC 22:05:02 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 22:19:41 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 22:22:27 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:27:26 *** nielsm is now known as Guest8732 22:32:28 *** Guest8732 has quit IRC 22:47:07 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 23:00:20 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:15:38 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 23:24:02 *** frosch123 has quit IRC