Log for #openttd on 23rd December 2020:
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04:51:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #8364: Forbid 90 degree turns does not work https://git.io/JI47g
04:51:35  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech closed issue #8364: Forbid 90 degree turns does not work https://git.io/JI47g
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06:21:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] perezdidac opened issue #8419: Trains stuck at path through implicit destinations after fixing route towards real destination https://git.io/JLPDF
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06:58:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #178: Doc: remove credits section from README https://git.io/JLPSu
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08:50:05  <andythenorth> hmm
08:50:10  <andythenorth> time for German Horse! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X63JETQEPrA
08:59:32  <TrueBrain> that moment you want to do something, open up your browser, completely forget what that "something" is
08:59:35  <TrueBrain> time to get back to bed I guess!
09:00:12  <TrueBrain> oeh, info@ got an email from the marketing manager of India
09:00:16  <andythenorth> nice
09:00:19  <TrueBrain> guess they changed tactic
09:00:23  <TrueBrain> instead of having many, they now have 1
09:00:25  <andythenorth> I am getting reminders 'make TB a savegame'
09:00:27  <andythenorth> oof
09:00:29  <TrueBrain> best emails
09:00:33  * andythenorth snoozes the reminders
09:00:35  <TrueBrain> you don't have to andythenorth
09:00:37  <TrueBrain> if you have time :)
09:00:41  <andythenorth> I have time
09:01:00  <andythenorth> child #1 has to go to dentist first though
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09:01:27  * andythenorth has to remember to remove other patches first :P
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09:08:39  <LordAro> i chose to read that as "make TB into a savegame"
09:09:51  <andythenorth> backwards compatible?
09:10:34  <LordAro> ofc
09:16:37  <andythenorth> I found this, date says Jan 2019 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/andythenorth/930e321dfec44029b59383eda85b08b1/raw/0b8b5377caf3728a61b73a131683414d3e005827/gistfile1.txt
09:16:48  <andythenorth> might clean it up and turn it into a GH discussion
09:16:55  <andythenorth> those problems are solvable
09:18:52  * andythenorth BIAB
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09:51:47  <_dp_> emscripten version lags a lot on 4k :(
09:52:16  <TrueBrain> hahaha, that is a weird problem to have :P
09:52:22  <TrueBrain> I blame the new sorter we have btw :P :P :P
09:52:40  <TrueBrain> but yes, drawing is not done in a thread, so I can imagine it taking a bit of time :)
09:52:50  <_dp_> also doesn't show anything on performance measurements https://i.imgur.com/4JfnBcG.png
09:52:54  <_dp_> TrueBrain, sorter is meassured :p
09:53:08  <TrueBrain> owh, 20fps, that is not bad for 4k
09:53:12  <_dp_> and text is all blurry
09:53:23  <TrueBrain> resize your browser once and back
09:53:27  <TrueBrain> that mostly helps with the blurry
09:54:10  <_dp_> TrueBrain, this is native on same kind of game: https://i.imgur.com/RtKSb84.png
09:54:43  <TrueBrain> _dp_: the desktop version will always win from the browser
09:54:48  <TrueBrain> but that simulation rate is a bit insane :P
09:54:55  <TrueBrain> is that a 64x64 map or something?
09:55:04  <_dp_> yes, empty 64x64
09:55:06  <TrueBrain> anyway, with emscripten you are limited to the Hz of your screen
09:55:16  <TrueBrain> so if you have 4k 60Hz, it will never go over 60fps
09:55:50  <TrueBrain> (like .. never :P)
09:56:26  <_dp_> TrueBrain, yeah, but it hardly goes to 30 :p
09:56:42  <_dp_> and my screen is not 30 hz :p
09:56:59  <TrueBrain> no, I guess if it misses the deadline of the next frame, it skips it
09:57:03  <TrueBrain> at least, I would not be surprised by that
09:57:11  <TrueBrain> @calc 1000 / 60
09:57:11  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 16.666666666666668
09:57:29  <TrueBrain> there should be enough room though .. but yeah, 4k ... :P
09:57:53  <_dp_> I can get fps between 30 and 60 if I resize the browser
09:58:22  <TrueBrain> I am getting a solid 144Hz :P
09:58:26  <TrueBrain> euh, fps
09:58:27  <TrueBrain> what-ever
09:58:28  <TrueBrain> :)
09:58:38  <TrueBrain> btw, Chrome outperforms FireFox by a lot
09:58:39  <TrueBrain> like .. a lot
09:59:06  <_dp_> but I don't have chrome :/
09:59:17  <_dp_> guess chromium should do
09:59:27  <TrueBrain> .... yes ... Chromium will do too :P
09:59:28  <TrueBrain> you silly :)
09:59:48  <TrueBrain> and I believe on Windows it is also faster than on Linux
10:00:03  <TrueBrain> but this is mainly because Google invested a lot for performance on Chrome on Windows, because: Stadia
10:00:37  <TrueBrain> owh, and I don't know which emscripten version you run, but a debug build is VERY slow
10:00:43  <TrueBrain> release builds are 3x faster
10:00:47  <TrueBrain> easily
10:02:21  <_dp_> I'm not installing windows, you daemon :p
10:02:36  <_dp_> but chromium is significantly faster indeed https://imgur.com/a/2GtnjcD
10:02:41  <_dp_> it's actually playable
10:02:46  <_dp_> idk, I just run pr preview
10:02:51  <TrueBrain> guess your screens are 60Hz :)
10:02:56  <TrueBrain> PR preview are release-builds :)
10:03:09  <TrueBrain> but yeah, that last one is what I would expect to happen
10:03:18  <TrueBrain> FastForward is completely pointless
10:03:22  <TrueBrain> but otherwise it runs pretty smooth
10:03:32  <TrueBrain> game at 30fps, mouse-movement etc at 60Hz
10:03:43  <TrueBrain> I really love my 144Hz, as it makes mouse movements even smoother :)
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10:04:40  <_dp_> I wanted 144hz but with 4k it was a bit too much to ask at a time
10:04:53  <TrueBrain> :D
10:04:55  <TrueBrain> it is why I have 2x 2k
10:04:59  <andythenorth> 4k portable USB-C desktop monitor :o
10:05:03  * andythenorth dreams
10:05:04  <TrueBrain> I rather had 2x 2k at 144Hz, than 1x 4k at 60Hz :)
10:05:26  <TrueBrain> (and yes, that means I have 50% less screen space :P)
10:05:33  <_dp_> I felt bad having 4k drone but no 4k screen to view the footage :p
10:05:41  <TrueBrain> for that I have a TV :)
10:05:49  <_dp_> TV? what's that? :p
10:11:10  <andythenorth> it's a thing for watching livestreams on
10:13:32  <TrueBrain> hmm .. how to write a document meant for 2 different audiences ... tricky
10:16:43  <andythenorth> 2 docs
10:17:36  <TrueBrain> that is not going to work, but I think I got something :D
10:36:49  <TrueBrain> milek7: the friendslist and servers broadcasting public keys have to go hand in hand, do they not? I mean, one cannot work without the other, right?
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10:55:39  <TrueBrain> milek7: as mentioned, I have been looking for a way to write this in a format that also less-technical people can understand, and give feedback on. I settled on this: https://gist.github.com/TrueBrain/05d5d066efedd656ec7daa05f92fa012 . Not sure it is an improvement, but let me know what you think, and if it is still correct :D
10:56:00  <TrueBrain> if it is, I want to make it a Discussion, and ask around a bit if people see obvious issues / missing-features, etc
10:56:19  <TrueBrain> it feels we are over-complicating the situation, but that is not always a bad thing :D
10:57:55  * andythenorth is once again mind-blown by what discord JGR players are doing
10:58:00  <andythenorth> it's like a whole other game
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11:03:09  * andythenorth reads TB doc
11:03:13  <andythenorth> nice use of icons :P
11:05:52  <TrueBrain> let me know if even you can follow the first part of the document :P
11:09:19  <andythenorth> I can, but I am an unusual audience TBH
11:09:41  <andythenorth> I am not a programmer, but I am involved in designing a multi-application auth system so eh
11:10:29  <andythenorth> also you had me at 'cloud save' and everything else about crypto is kind of just necessary after that
11:10:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLPA1
11:11:20  <TrueBrain> you are useless to me :P
11:13:21  <andythenorth> sorry
11:13:33  <andythenorth> nice icons though
11:13:46  <andythenorth> I volunteer LordAro
11:13:53  <TrueBrain> yeah, they made it all look a bit more pretty :D
11:16:15  <TrueBrain> okay, the PR list is looking pretty good .. I start to get to fun PRs :)
11:20:37  <_dp_> "if a server changes IP or Port, clients can no longer join their own company" why's that?
11:21:16  <_dp_> oh, I guess you id servers by that
11:21:55  <TrueBrain> yup; is explained a bit more in the technical part
11:22:01  <TrueBrain> (which is the second document in that gist)
11:22:11  <TrueBrain> I did do 2 documents after all .. I hate admitting andythenorth had a good idea :P
11:22:21  <andythenorth> even a stopped clock
11:22:26  <andythenorth> tells the right time twice a day
11:23:33  <_dp_> TrueBrain, you can probably add that to pros on phase 2
11:24:44  <_dp_> "friends still have to join with passwords" it's not hard to do some kind of invite system
11:24:54  <TrueBrain> keep reading :)
11:24:57  <TrueBrain> comment after ;)
11:25:18  <_dp_> boo
11:27:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8416: Change: [Linkgraph] Allow job threads to be aborted early when clearing schedule https://git.io/JLPxE
11:28:52  <_dp_> too boring :p
11:28:59  <_dp_> at which phase to we create a shitcoin?
11:29:15  <TrueBrain> yes, sorry, I forgot to add blockchain somewhere in there :)
11:29:25  <TrueBrain> but I hope "phase 3" answered your earlier question :)
11:29:34  <TrueBrain> do you see anything missing from here that would help you with cm etc?
11:29:40  <_dp_> you need no blockchain for a shitcoin :p
11:30:11  <andythenorth> earn coin by delivering cargo
11:30:14  <andythenorth> proof of work innit
11:32:58  <_dp_> TrueBrain, idk, need to sleep on it
11:33:16  <TrueBrain> please do; would love to know if we can add some things to make your life easier here
11:33:28  <_dp_> TrueBrain, but so far it seems to add about as many issues for cm as it solves
11:33:55  <TrueBrain> if you have any specific issues you want to talk through, I would love to hear them :)
11:34:20  <_dp_> well, it's not that it does smth wrong, it's just more work to make use of it
11:35:03  <TrueBrain> the thing I would like to fix, is the "freedom" of usernames .. so you have to register somewhere to claim your username, or what-ever .. just don't know yet how it fits in there :)
11:35:57  <_dp_> yeah, and what are you gonna do if it's already registered somewhere
11:36:22  <_dp_> like ppl have their nicknames registered on cm already
11:36:26  <_dp_> likewise on other servers
11:36:36  <TrueBrain> how does your registration work, btw?
11:36:50  <_dp_> you register on a website and then you can login in game
11:38:41  <TrueBrain> how does it validate that you registered?
11:38:45  <TrueBrain> IP-based?
11:39:22  <_dp_> validates by password (command is !login username password)
11:39:29  <_dp_> and I know it's not very secure :P
11:39:39  <TrueBrain> ah, you capture that message on the server and don't rebroadcast it
11:39:40  <TrueBrain> clever
11:39:41  <_dp_> keeps session by ip
11:40:17  <_dp_> yup, it even hides it from admin port and stuff just in case iirc
11:40:17  <TrueBrain> so indeed, to make use of this for you is not trivially replacing the current setup
11:40:48  <_dp_> *ip and player naem
11:41:24  <TrueBrain> as with this draft, you can uniquely identify people
11:41:27  <TrueBrain> but you don't know who they are :D
11:41:32  <TrueBrain> there is no outside validation yet
11:41:40  <TrueBrain> that needs some more thinking from my side too
11:42:19  <TrueBrain> you want to link outside world something to ingame something .. currently that really are 2 worlds
11:44:55  <michi_cc> In the most basic way, wouldn't it be just a "copy pubkey to clipboard" button, for which somebody could make the website functions around?
11:45:12  <michi_cc> You'd need a patched OTTD server as well, of course.
11:45:42  <michi_cc> I.e. associate pubkeys with a website account and the server validates against that database.
11:46:46  <_dp_> michi_cc, it's pointless in phase1 and in phase2 you don't need any copy-paste as same ingame login command would work
11:47:05  <_dp_> though I guess c&p will make it more secure
11:47:34  <michi_cc> Global tracking in pase 1 is indeed pointless.
11:48:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on pull request #178: Doc: remove credits section from README https://git.io/JLPpG
11:48:21  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: problem is, a public key is not a proof of identity
11:48:25  <TrueBrain> you need a challenge for that :)
11:48:34  <michi_cc> But phase 1 is just allowing server restart without having to save company passwords somewhere retrivable.
11:49:23  <TrueBrain> so what could work is: ingame start challenge, website shows a code, you put that in there, you get back a new code, and you copy that back on the website
11:49:25  <TrueBrain> not really elegant
11:49:28  <michi_cc> You don't have a challenge on company creation in yoour draft either.
11:49:28  <TrueBrain> but that does the trick
11:49:39  <TrueBrain> technically, it does
11:49:50  <TrueBrain> I tried to keep the wording simple in the first document
11:50:10  <TrueBrain> can't promise I succeeded :D
11:50:36  <TrueBrain> (well, "technically, it does" .. in the current PR it does)
11:51:13  <TrueBrain> besides that: if you join a company with a public key you don't have the secret off .. if you shoot yourself in the foot, it hurts :P But using the public key to identify myself to a website .. that is not going to work :)
11:51:18  <_dp_> it does challenge when joining the server, what's the point of doing it any more?
11:51:21  <TrueBrain> as I can just take your public key (as it is public info) .. ;)
11:51:42  <TrueBrain> doing it at company create can help to prevent mistakes later on
11:51:51  <TrueBrain> but yes, it doesn't add security
11:52:05  <michi_cc> Maybe we are talking about something else. I mean that you register/authenticate on some website via whatever means. On that website, you can also add your OTTD pubkey.
11:52:27  <TrueBrain> that would be based on human-trust in that case
11:52:31  <TrueBrain> as I could add your pubkey too
11:52:50  <michi_cc> Which is stored in a database and a patched OTTD server can then use it to validate your company login.
11:52:54  <TrueBrain> so I can make an account that tracks your progress on a server :P
11:53:15  <_dp_> TrueBrain, you can add someone else's pubkey but you can't join server with it
11:54:17  <TrueBrain> hmm .. there is a nuance there that makes me doubt the current draft a bit
11:54:21  <TrueBrain> as we now validate on company level
11:54:27  <TrueBrain> I wonder if we shouldn't validate on joining the server
11:55:04  <michi_cc> But, yes, it you want that website to have a proof that you have the private key as well, you would need to have the OTTD client sing something.
11:55:10  <michi_cc> *sign
11:55:33  <TrueBrain> well, you do have a good point about using it the other way
11:55:33  <michi_cc> A singing client might be fun, too, but not very secure :p
11:55:42  <TrueBrain> I was thinking you want the trust to be delegated to the website, but you indeed don't have to
11:56:10  <TrueBrain> the problem I can see happening, is that if people join as spectator
11:56:19  <TrueBrain> a server doesn't know the pubkey in that case, in the current draft
11:56:51  <TrueBrain> that also means server whitelisting is not really working :D Okay, this needs a bit tuning
11:57:01  <_dp_> yeah, I probably misread "on joining" as "on joining the server"
11:57:12  <_dp_> if it's on joining the company that's quite a problem
11:57:37  <TrueBrain> that is what is currently done, I believe .. so let's reword a bit :)
11:57:44  <TrueBrain> as that would align michi_cc's idea fine :D
11:59:20  <_dp_> and there is no point to complicate things by adding some special treatment for spectators that they don't need
11:59:39  <TrueBrain> no, I agree .. this was overcomplicating things
12:00:59  <_dp_> just having to deal with both registered and unregistered players is already enough of a nuisance on cm side xD
12:01:56  <TrueBrain> okay, updated draft
12:01:59  <TrueBrain> much simpler now I think
12:02:08  <TrueBrain> basically, "everyone is validated after join"
12:02:21  <TrueBrain> so the pubkeys can be added to user-lists etc, can be read via rcon
12:02:26  <TrueBrain> and can be considered "validated" :)
12:03:00  <TrueBrain> that should indeed make copy/paste of the pubkey sufficient to signup to websites :)
12:03:10  <TrueBrain> via rcon, do a `list userpubkeys` or whatever
12:04:59  <TrueBrain> I like the: you cannot opt-in or out of using this challenge-mechanism. Everyone is doing it. You can only choose to have it different for every server :)
12:06:12  <_dp_> well, it doesn't rly matter much if it's different
12:06:15  <_dp_> only for savegames
12:06:19  <TrueBrain> exactly :)
12:06:19  <_dp_> though
12:06:23  <TrueBrain> how do you mean?
12:06:43  <_dp_> nvm
12:07:33  <TrueBrain> added a bit about the savegame
12:08:42  <_dp_> hm, does phase 4 with opt-in mean anyone can track you across all servers?
12:09:13  <TrueBrain> yes
12:10:34  <TrueBrain> as alternative of phase 2, I was thinking the server gives back a token
12:10:38  <TrueBrain> this token is normally randomly generated
12:10:43  <TrueBrain> but server admins can sync them between servers
12:10:54  <TrueBrain> so that pubkeys are shared in small clusters
12:10:59  <TrueBrain> instead of overall
12:11:03  <TrueBrain> but that is a lot more complex :D
12:12:55  <_dp_> but that will make it at least a bit useful
12:13:11  <_dp_> like griefers will have to not only change ip but keys as well :p
12:13:26  <TrueBrain> which they will learn to do really quickly, I am afraid :)
12:13:52  <_dp_> probably worst part for citymania is that I kinda have to make it all work with opted out users
12:13:53  <TrueBrain> but in the case of cm, you can rate limit that on the signup, I guess :)
12:14:03  <_dp_> which is no different from what it does now
12:14:11  <_dp_> but there is a whole lot more on top of it
12:14:37  <TrueBrain> yeah ... so I have been looking for alternatives to phase 2 .. other ideas are very welcome :)
12:14:58  <_dp_> does "fuck privacy" count as an idea? :p
12:15:03  <TrueBrain> sadly, nope :)
12:15:18  <TrueBrain> when I first wrote the network protocol, every client generated an unique_id
12:15:25  <TrueBrain> this was sent to every server you joined
12:15:29  <TrueBrain> and the master server collected this
12:15:33  <TrueBrain> so we could see who played where
12:15:43  <TrueBrain> pretty much in the same idea as this draft, only without authentication
12:15:50  <TrueBrain> people ... did not like it that much :P
12:16:07  <TrueBrain> well, a minority of course
12:16:15  <TrueBrain> so now 15 years later, we are even more privacy aware ...
12:16:19  <TrueBrain> pretty sure we shouldn't repeat history :D
12:16:42  <TrueBrain> oops, forgot lunch, lets fix that :D
12:16:49  <_dp_> then if it's more secure than ip adress it can't really help much in cm case I'm afraid
12:16:53  <_dp_> as cool as it all is
12:17:30  <_dp_> or more private should i say
12:20:33  <_dp_> btw, if changig keys would require patching openttd it would be much harder than changing ip ;)
12:21:05  <_dp_> pretty sure noone is going to do a build for griefers :p
12:21:29  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #8404: Feature: Snow line height can be autodetermined upon world generation https://git.io/JLa2N
12:28:56  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8404: Feature: Snow line height can be autodetermined upon world generation https://git.io/JLPha
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12:54:38  <milek7> <TrueBrain> a server doesn't know the pubkey in that case, in the current draft
12:55:04  <milek7> no, it verifies during server join
12:55:07  <milek7> "Always during joining to server, after NewGRF check and possible game password check server sends PACKET_SERVER_NEED_KEYAUTH packet containing challenge with 16 random bytes. Client then replies with PACKET_CLIENT_KEYAUTH containing its own public key and signature for given challenge. Server verifies challenge and stores client pubkey in ClientInfo, or disconnects client when signature is invalid."
12:55:38  <_dp_> milek7, draft already changed
12:59:46  <milek7> but PR was doing that whole time :P
13:01:49  <andythenorth> "Efficiency this year: 109%"
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13:04:59  <TrueBrain> _dp_: some more thinking and considering scenarios, this "privacy mode" is going to give more issues than solutions .. not only for cm :)
13:05:02  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency https://git.io/JLPjS
13:05:13  <andythenorth> TrueBrain ^ savegame, would you mind confirming it works for you?
13:05:22  <TrueBrain> will do a bit later
13:05:29  <andythenorth> \o/
13:07:13  <milek7> TrueBrain: tbh I'm not sure if separating phase 1-3 is worth is
13:07:14  <milek7> as using both password and pubkeys makes bit ugly logic in code, so might as well remove passwords and integrate access list in first PR
13:08:22  <milek7> also draft might note that access lists will be also replacement for game passwords
13:08:44  <TrueBrain> milek7: it does ..
13:08:46  <TrueBrain> :P
13:09:05  <TrueBrain> and no, I think putting that all in a single PR would make it nearly impossible to review
13:09:15  <milek7> ah, ok
13:09:19  <TrueBrain> but this is more to talk over if the idea is solid tbh
13:09:27  <TrueBrain> as clearly the current one is not ;) Changing it as we speak
13:09:38  <milek7> >if a server changes IP or Port, clients can no longer join their own company
13:09:57  <milek7> that one is inconvenient, so:
13:10:47  <milek7> instead of hostname, server during authstep would return its own pubkey signed
13:11:00  <milek7> and that pubkey would be mixed into key material
13:11:14  <TrueBrain> updated draft
13:11:21  <TrueBrain> I think this is a lot simpler to both implement and understand for users
13:11:57  <TrueBrain> (phase 1 and 2 changed)
13:13:07  <_dp_> wait, if multiple servers return same pubkey can they track opted out users?
13:13:10  <TrueBrain> milek7: I did consider that too, and similar approaches .. but it adds a lot of complexity for little gain. So I am not sure that helps
13:13:32  <TrueBrain> so I think we should do out the "opt-in" stuff
13:13:45  <TrueBrain> hence the new suggestion: allow clients to make different identities how they please
13:13:48  <milek7> _dp_: well, yes..
13:14:12  <milek7> but that would have requires many malicious servers, dunno how big problem this is :P
13:15:07  <milek7> (of course they cannot impersonate as another server pubkey, as this would be also crypto-challenged by client)
13:15:50  <TrueBrain> _dp_: I think this easier idea in current draft makes it a bit easier for you; still, griefers can easily change identity, so it is not helping for that part :)
13:16:35  <_dp_> TrueBrain, well, it not like you can stop ppl from changing identity anyway
13:16:44  <TrueBrain> in this model, we can never, no :)
13:17:02  <_dp_> also you know what would really help? if every identity is forced to have a god damn player name! :p
13:17:04  <TrueBrain> you have to go all facebook if you want to do that :P
13:17:59  <TrueBrain> _dp_: very good point, we can fix that annoying old problem as well
13:18:03  <TrueBrain> wrote it down in phase 2
13:18:19  <TrueBrain> we have to stop naming everyone "Player" :P
13:19:13  <milek7> well, but what does that solves over privacy-mode?
13:19:41  <TrueBrain> the original "privacy-mode" was a binary solution, where on was on the left side of the spectrum, and off on the right side
13:19:49  <TrueBrain> this is a more moderated approach, where we make use of the full spectrum
13:20:00  <_dp_> it solves that you can ignore "opted-out" users
13:20:20  <_dp_> if they want to inconvenience themselves let them be
13:20:50  <TrueBrain> and this is a lot easier to explain in the UI :)
13:21:07  <milek7> _dp_: opt-out user would be visible to server as any other, so what's the difference?
13:21:50  <_dp_> milek7, basically, with opt out as default I'll have to make sure citymania auth works for them
13:22:13  <_dp_> without it I can just auth by keys
13:23:40  <milek7> opt-*out* doesn't sound like default :P
13:23:47  <_dp_> if ppl want to change keys they can c&p it constantly or login on every join or whatever, it's their problem :p
13:23:51  <TrueBrain> it was an opt-in, milek7
13:23:58  <TrueBrain> opt-outs are stupid, and people should stop making them
13:24:25  <TrueBrain> "I care about your privacy, but it is not my default" is such a bullshit thing to do
13:25:17  <milek7> more like "this is way more convenient, but if you really care about privacy you can disable it"
13:25:36  <TrueBrain> but with the new phase 2 that is still possible; I just don't think it is needed
13:26:39  <milek7> well, you could argue that it is less private, because you need explictly create new identities, it won't happen automatically :P
13:27:06  <TrueBrain> if it turns out people really want that mode, we can always make it so there is a special identity like "generate a new key for every server" checkbox, or what-ever
13:27:09  <TrueBrain> it does not rule it out
13:27:23  <TrueBrain> but I noticed it is hard to explain in text, but also in the UI, and in the end to users
13:27:34  <TrueBrain> so I think it is not a good idea the start out with that
13:27:48  <TrueBrain> having more than 1 identity however, is useful
13:28:34  <TrueBrain> (at least, what I dislike about for example the Blizzard launcher, I can never just join a game without all my friends going: I WANT TO JOIN THAT SERVER TOO NOW .. fucking annoying)
13:28:42  <TrueBrain> sometimes you just want to be left alone :P
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13:31:31  <milek7> well personally I don't like that at all
13:31:33  <milek7> but if this makes is easier to accept, then...ehhh.. ok :)
13:31:48  <TrueBrain> what part don't you like at all?
13:31:55  <TrueBrain> "that" is a bit hard to define :D
13:32:46  <milek7> storing multiple identities
13:33:00  <TrueBrain> why not?
13:33:17  <TrueBrain> so far your only argumentation is: it is not my "opt-out" idea :P
13:33:43  <milek7> more UI
13:34:07  <TrueBrain> that's it? :)
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13:35:44  <TrueBrain> (the reason we write these drafts and have this conversation, is to make sure we don't miss anything :D Hence the question ;) )
13:35:55  <milek7> really I don't know what it solves over single-key solution
13:36:01  <milek7> except that it removes privacy mode, which user can replicate by.. manual busywork clicking in the UI
13:36:22  <TrueBrain> right, third time I tell you this now: multiple identities can still contain a privacy mode
13:36:24  <TrueBrain> doesn't rule it out
13:36:26  <TrueBrain> can still be a single click
13:36:38  <TrueBrain> so in those regards, nothing changed
13:36:58  <milek7> but you didn't want to explain it in the UI
13:37:02  <TrueBrain> what I like about multiple identities, is that it solves another problem we had for years: people joining as "Player"
13:37:03  <milek7> now you need to do it again :D
13:37:13  <TrueBrain> so I think we need to make the playername a dropdown
13:37:23  <TrueBrain> where the bottom entry is: "Create new identity"
13:37:24  <TrueBrain> or what-ever
13:37:34  <TrueBrain> you fill in a nickname to use by default for that identity
13:37:46  <_dp_> well, tbh it can be solved without any identities at all...
13:37:46  <TrueBrain> first time you open multiplayer, it puts that UI in front of you
13:39:05  <TrueBrain> one thing I dislike about IRC .. you have no idea if _dp_ is still typing, or that he left the building :D
13:39:29  <milek7> that's good thing
13:39:34  <milek7> privacy :D
13:39:34  * _dp_ left :p
13:39:47  <TrueBrain> so you just put down a cliffhanger ... :P
13:40:35  <_dp_> well, what you expected me to type? forcing a player to chose a name isn't exactly a hard idea :p
13:40:59  <TrueBrain> then I do not understand what you said .. "can be solved without any identities at all" .. then how to solve it?
13:41:24  <TrueBrain> (the privacy part, I mean)
13:41:30  <_dp_> "people joining as Player" can be solved by just not allowing them to join without a name
13:41:37  <TrueBrain> ah, you were mention that :)
13:41:38  <frosch123> _dp_: how to pronounce your name on a livestream? "dp" sounds so non-pegi-13
13:41:39  <TrueBrain> okay, gotcha :P
13:41:43  <frosch123> is "derp" okay? :p
13:42:00  <TrueBrain> _dp_: sorry, that was a bit confusing to me, that you were referencing that part :)
13:42:20  <_dp_> frosch123, no :p
13:42:38  <TrueBrain> "underscore" "dee" "pee" "underscore"
13:42:40  <TrueBrain> I assumed
13:43:20  <michi_cc> But isn't it really |dp|?
13:43:38  <_dp_> it's dP :p
13:43:39  <TrueBrain> "pipe" "dee" "pee" "pipe"?
13:43:54  <_dp_> life isn't easy when you have a 2-letter nickname :p
13:44:05  <TrueBrain> and who picked that nickname to start with?
13:44:07  <TrueBrain> well? huh?
13:44:28  <_dp_> I was a naive young child...
13:44:34  <TrueBrain> I know that problem :D
13:45:07  <_dp_> I have other nicknames, it's just noone else knows them :p
13:45:18  <TrueBrain> multiple identities you say
13:45:23  <frosch123> ok, so we just say "that irc dude"
13:45:24  <TrueBrain> interesting :P
13:45:35  <michi_cc> Well, pronounciation is obviously "differential of power" then :p
13:45:51  <michi_cc> Or "derivative of power"
13:47:20  <_dp_> I honestly don't know what't the best solution here, if you really want to avoid dp I guess next best choice would be to use my real name (Pavel)
13:48:02  <milek7> TrueBrain: in effect, you wanted to have multiple identities to simplify, but now it is just more complex, fine :P
13:48:12  <milek7> you want phase 1-2 in separate PR?
13:49:24  <_dp_> hellish didn't seem to have any issues with dP though :p
13:52:10  <TrueBrain> milek7: I do not see the need to add phase 2 directly on top of phase 1, no
13:52:24  <TrueBrain> milek7: and I honestly think this is a lot easier to explain with simple UI elements over previous ideas
13:52:58  <TrueBrain> but that is my opinion; we need more and others :)
13:53:14  <TrueBrain> milek7: well, in fact, non of these phases have to be done one after the other, tbfh
13:53:21  <TrueBrain> P1 needs to be done first, that is for sure
13:53:34  <TrueBrain> but what ever comes next .. not really relevant I guess
13:53:41  <TrueBrain> but we first need to bring this to more people :D
13:53:46  <andythenorth> first, next, then
13:54:07  * andythenorth is a fanboy for this approach generally
13:54:16  <andythenorth> allows learning
13:54:22  <TrueBrain> milek7: any other feedback on the draft btw? Or is this pretty much what you had in mind too? (I hope so, I did my best to follow your draft :D)
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14:02:17  <milek7> except privacy mode (which is now missing from the draft), yes
14:02:51  <TrueBrain> "This can be as extreme of a new identity for each server"
14:02:52  <TrueBrain> it is there :)
14:03:26  <_dp_> smth seems to be missing in that sentence :p
14:03:29  <TrueBrain> I added that an hour ago btw :P
14:03:36  <TrueBrain> yes .... I noticed too when copy/pasting it :P
14:03:46  <TrueBrain> fixed it in the draft :)
14:04:01  <milek7> "It can be repesented as 64 char hex-encoded string. (do we want to bother with Base58 or something?)"
14:04:09  <milek7> "Do we need to support unprotected companies at all?"
14:04:42  <TrueBrain> I would base64 encode it, but tomato tomato
14:04:48  <TrueBrain> and that is really an implementation specific thingy
14:05:04  <TrueBrain> the unprotected company I put in as a non-question: "The owner can make his company public, allowing anyone to join"
14:05:14  <TrueBrain> (implying companies are always protected)
14:05:19  <TrueBrain> or: always have an owner, I guess
14:05:28  <milek7> do we really need public companies?
14:05:39  <TrueBrain> I do not see a reason not to
14:05:47  <TrueBrain> openttdcoop games would want that, for example
14:06:16  <_dp_> it would be nice to have that as an option though ;)
14:06:19  <TrueBrain> haha, we can also apply this on AIs :P
14:06:57  <_dp_> (disabling public companies I mean)
14:07:09  <TrueBrain> that was totally unclear _dp_  :P
14:07:14  <TrueBrain> :D
14:07:22  <TrueBrain> having an option for a server owner that you cannot make a company public?
14:07:28  <_dp_> yes
14:07:30  <TrueBrain> yet-another-option, but I guess, I have no problems with that
14:07:42  <_dp_> citymania does that already for example
14:09:11  <milek7> and what to do with invite codes? random stored in memory only, or store in server savegames also?
14:09:27  <_dp_> may even be a good idea to have public companies off by default
14:09:50  <_dp_> as I can recall multiple times it was used for griefing but not a signle one used for good :p
14:10:14  <frosch123> yeah, eat that train!
14:11:25  <TrueBrain> milek7: no clue! That is so deep in the technical implementation ... :)
14:11:42  <TrueBrain> anyway, moved the gist to a Discussion: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/discussions/8420
14:12:07  <TrueBrain> so we can ask some feedback besides the few people here :D
14:12:29  <frosch123> did you know? when you crash a train while a level crossing is closed, that level crossing does not open again after the train is cleared?
14:13:24  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I do :)
14:13:48  <TrueBrain> well, that is, I abused that with TTD :P
14:14:02  <TrueBrain> I expected OpenTTD to have that fixed by now :D
14:14:07  <frosch123> :)
14:14:14  <frosch123> anyway, adbreak is ready
14:14:22  <TrueBrain> not saying I am disappointed ... :P
14:14:24  <TrueBrain> frosch123: sweet :D
14:14:34  <frosch123> shall i PR it so we also have wasm version of it?
14:14:40  <TrueBrain> sure, why not
14:14:50  <frosch123> (i won't show it in wasm, since i have a savegame prepared)
14:14:56  <TrueBrain> means I can stream it; might be better than streaming it via you :P
14:15:02  <TrueBrain> ah, you are showing it
14:15:03  <TrueBrain> then no :)
14:15:07  <TrueBrain> :P
14:15:15  <frosch123> well, if you get the savegame into wasm
14:15:51  <TrueBrain> I want to load andythenorth's save there too .. not sure how yet
14:15:54  <TrueBrain> but I am going to manage :D
14:16:07  * andythenorth RAGE QUITS if no save
14:16:13  <andythenorth> took at least 12 minutes to make it
14:16:33  <andythenorth> observe cheat use, and adding of missing grfs
14:16:35  <TrueBrain> milek7: no clue if the discussion page is going to lead to any useful feedback, but at least we tried :D
14:17:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8391: RFC: Feature: Public key company authorization https://git.io/JLXUg
14:17:52  <TrueBrain> milek7: and it would be nice if we can land phase 1 and 3 in 1.11, so maybe that is a goal to set there :) 2, 4 and 5 I don't think are reasonable to expect
14:18:36  <TrueBrain> but I am open for counter-proposals on that :D
14:18:47  <milek7> _dp_: >basically, with opt out as default I'll have to make sure citymania auth works for them
14:18:47  <milek7> >without it I can just auth by keys
14:18:51  <milek7> I think you just need to store pubkey-user mapping somewhere, add entry to it when user do !login, and auth automatically when entry is already present?
14:18:54  <milek7> so whatever privacy mode is enabled, at worst case user just enter credentials again, but usually they aren't bothered by login prompt
14:18:58  <TrueBrain> maybe P4 is a lot easier than I think, for example :D
14:19:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #111: [ca_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JLi9U
14:19:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #111: [ca_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JLi9U
14:19:59  <milek7> TrueBrain: but I guess we need to do P2 before release too, if we don't want to have privacy pitchforks pointed at us?
14:20:08  <TrueBrain> fair
14:20:59  <_dp_> milek7, opt-out by default means 99% of cases are "worst case"
14:21:14  <_dp_> at that point I may as well just ignore keys and track by ip as I already do
14:21:57  <TrueBrain> right, time to get myself ready for tonight (read: I need to shave), after that, looking at savegames :D
14:22:04  <milek7> why? if server hostname stays the same keys won't change
14:22:51  <milek7> you don't have trouble with CGNAT, with tracking by IP?
14:23:03  <milek7> two different ottd players on same IP isn't exactly impossible
14:24:10  <_dp_> both ip and player name has to be the same
14:24:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #8421: Real hovercraft, refittable to eels https://git.io/JLXTl
14:24:12  <_dp_> and with 200 registered users and 2 average active players it isn't exactly a problem :p
14:24:42  <TrueBrain> but with 1.11, you are going to make a nice Play button on your website, and the amount of players is going to BOOM!
14:24:43  <TrueBrain> :D
14:24:45  <TrueBrain> right?
14:24:46  <TrueBrain> :D
14:24:59  <_dp_> I wish xD
14:25:17  <TrueBrain> we should do "showcases" on OpenTTD's news
14:25:25  <TrueBrain> that won't cause drama at all
14:25:29  <_dp_> citymania is kinda the least suited place for browser version though :p
14:25:33  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] J0anJosep commented on issue #111: [ca_ES] Translator access request https://git.io/JLi9U
14:26:05  <TrueBrain> make smaller challenges/achievements/quests/whatever!
14:26:25  <_dp_> milek7, though I thought it will generate new keys on each connect, if it keeps them for each server I guess it's somewhat useful
14:26:31  <_dp_> more info > less info
14:26:54  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8421: Real hovercraft, refittable to eels https://git.io/JLXTK
14:27:09  <TrueBrain> hahahaha :D
14:27:51  <frosch123> someone needs to adjust their troll detection meter
14:28:28  <andythenorth> some people are not neurotypical
14:28:42  <TrueBrain> owh, this already cracks  me up, and we have yet to start the livestream :D
14:28:45  <andythenorth> and will struggle with "this is presented as true but isn't"
14:31:14  <_dp_> should I pr copy-paste to troll more? ;)
14:31:23  <TrueBrain> next stream .. if there will ever be one :P
14:32:19  <frosch123> huh, farm did not like it
14:32:37  <TrueBrain> the important one did :P
14:32:41  <frosch123> oh, regression fails :)
14:32:44  <_dp_> TrueBrain, next stream it may not be a troll anymore :p
14:33:11  <michi_cc> This new PR comment is similar to one comment #7589. A PR that is meant to cut down on the number of variables and the comment suggests about 10000 new settings :)
14:33:34  <milek7> I think it needs land-buoy too :P
14:35:34  <andythenorth> omg yes
14:35:38  <andythenorth> pls patch quick sharp
14:35:50  <andythenorth> then we can discuss land docks also :P
14:36:06  <andythenorth> factorio had belts, which we discussed n times, and was rejected because 'not transport'
14:36:12  <andythenorth> but WE CAN HAVE HOVER
14:36:22  <andythenorth> hover is much more futurism
14:36:31  <andythenorth> belts is just conveyors
14:36:40  <andythenorth> nobody puts conveyors into sci-fi movies, all hover
14:38:35  * andythenorth has idea
14:39:04  <michi_cc> Okay, history succesfully faked on #7589.
14:39:43  <_dp_> looks like disaster vehicle idea took an unexpected turn xD
14:40:18  <andythenorth> HOVER BELTS
14:40:22  <andythenorth> future squared
14:40:24  <andythenorth> winning
14:40:40  <_dp_> damn, can we merge this, I have so many uses for it xDDD
14:40:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #7589: Change: Always apply inflation from 1920 to 2090, no matter the game start year. https://git.io/JLXk0
14:41:35  <andythenorth> hmm, towns are gonna want a hover noise limit though
14:41:49  <andythenorth> also, should be able cross rail on hover, but not if electrified
14:48:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8421: Real hovercraft, refittable to eels https://git.io/JLXky
14:49:34  <andythenorth> Time for YACD Revival!?? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=54253
14:49:37  * andythenorth misses YACD
14:53:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8391: RFC: Feature: Public key company authorization https://git.io/JLXkj
14:54:50  <michi_cc> Is sound supposed to work on the WASM builds if you download a sound set, btw? Because it stays silent for me :(
14:55:07  <milek7> no, it is built without sound
14:56:14  * michi_cc is sad about missing level crossing sounds on start screen.
14:56:21  <michi_cc> Well, not really, but still...
14:56:27  * andythenorth plays WASM exclusively from now on
14:56:29  <andythenorth> if that is the case
14:56:32  <milek7> though tbh it could be, contrary to music it doesn't require heavy soundfonts
14:56:39  <andythenorth> I often accidentally leave the game on title screen :P
14:57:21  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] floodious commented on pull request #8032: Fix #7904: Don't use a timer for hundredth tick determination https://git.io/JLXIm
14:59:28  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Small typo on the #8420 discussion: "let your voice hurt" :)
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15:01:06  <andythenorth> frosch123 request pls, I can't find the grf with EELS cargo in
15:01:08  <andythenorth> where is?
15:01:32  <frosch123> it's not christmas yet
15:06:50  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: LOL .. oops :D
15:06:52  <TrueBrain> that is bad :P
15:10:10  <andythenorth> oof I need to install Discord or something
15:10:16  <andythenorth>  allow hours for that? :P
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15:16:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7589: Change: Always apply inflation from 1920 to 2090, no matter the game start year. https://git.io/JLXLU
15:17:07  <andythenorth> frosch123 any idea if the group PRs all merge (including the efficiency one in 7353)? :)
15:17:27  * andythenorth considering photoshop to show all the new UI elements stacked together
15:17:31  <frosch123> pretty sure none of the group PRs merge
15:18:04  <frosch123> a PR merged last week, made them all outdated, both codewise and conceptwise. more on the stream :)
15:19:02  <frosch123> but the screenshots in the PR are enough for discussion
15:19:11  <andythenorth> was that the 'shared vehicles' PR?
15:19:16  <andythenorth> I'm trying to find it
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15:19:24  <andythenorth> so I can mockup that, plus 7353
15:19:24  <frosch123> yes, 7028
15:19:52  <frosch123> i am making a test game for the groups already
15:19:59  <andythenorth> ok so 7028 is non-orthogonal to 7353
15:20:08  <andythenorth> as 7353 shows per-vehicle efficiency
15:20:21  <frosch123> i think that has nothing to do with groups
15:21:00  <andythenorth> I mean in the UI, but maybe it's fine
15:21:17  <andythenorth> the meaning of 'efficiency' will change but eh
15:22:16  <andythenorth> nah it's fine, it works, I'm wrong
15:23:05  <TrueBrain> milek7: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/discussions/8420#discussioncomment-237460 <- you see a clean way to add rcon into the mix?
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15:24:27  <milek7> not sure how rcon works
15:24:31  <milek7> but instead of checking for password, just check if client pubkey is in rcon access list, is probably enough?
15:24:32  <andythenorth> visual effect of 'group by shared orders' is soooo weird :)
15:24:37  <andythenorth> but nice thing about filters...optional
15:24:50  * _dp_ not using rcon on citymania at all for somewhat similar reasons
15:26:16  <_dp_> have admin port for that though
15:28:07  <TrueBrain> milek7: reply it, and we will see if people think differently :D
15:28:32  <TrueBrain> I like how people tend to rate "this is worse" when it comes to security :) Pretty sure we should just fix them all ;)
15:29:56  <TrueBrain> now, how to get savegames in wasm .. hmm
15:30:13  <_dp_> since you already added server access lists seems kinda logical to add roles there
15:30:22  <TrueBrain> _dp_: I like that idea
15:30:24  <TrueBrain> did not consider that
15:30:29  <TrueBrain> but just like companies
15:30:38  <TrueBrain> make the whitelist based on roles .. well, it is a bit moer than a whitelist in that case
15:30:48  <TrueBrain> access list + setting for "public vs whitelisted", I guess
15:30:56  <TrueBrain> but ... simple, elegant, and fits the rest of the idea
15:32:40  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8421: Real hovercraft, refittable to eels https://git.io/JLXLD
15:32:47  <TrueBrain> just the tools that wrap around server rcon needs adjusting, but ... I don't really care about that :)
15:32:55  <TrueBrain> we can always help them :)
15:33:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8421: Real hovercraft, refittable to eels https://git.io/JLXLS
15:33:46  <TrueBrain> I should not have done ^^
15:33:52  <TrueBrain> I feel bad, but in my mind it was very funny :)
15:33:54  <_dp_> who on earth wraps around rcon command
15:33:59  <_dp_> there is rcon in admin port for that
15:34:10  <TrueBrain> how is that secured btw?
15:34:28  <_dp_> poorly :p
15:34:35  <TrueBrain> _dp_: libs that existed before the admin port used to do that
15:34:49  <_dp_> but it helps that you don't need to connect over the internet
15:35:51  <TrueBrain> pretty sure those libs are dead now btw, just to be clear :P
15:37:29  <TrueBrain> (and otherwise this will be the death of them :P)
15:38:09  <_dp_> rip
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15:38:43  <TrueBrain> it left a spectator in game
15:38:45  <TrueBrain> it was not pretty
15:38:58  <TrueBrain> but okay, admin port also needs a looksy
15:39:10  <TrueBrain> we might as well solve the whole password debacle at once :D
15:39:11  <milek7> admin port is more problematic
15:39:21  <milek7> do we force libraries to include libhydrogen too?
15:39:54  <TrueBrain> hmm .. good question
15:40:36  <michi_cc> Is the algorithm by libhydrogen something specific or are there other libs that implements the same algorithm?
15:40:47  <TrueBrain>  Curve25519, and I was just looking for that :D
15:41:28  <Eddi|zuHause> did we skip a few months and it is suddenly april 1st?
15:41:29  <milek7> curve25519+gimli as hash, which is probably rather unique
15:41:44  <TrueBrain> it indeed seems rather unique
15:41:55  <TrueBrain> we can look for another library of course, that is as lightweight and does something more standard?
15:42:08  <milek7> if we want compatiblity then monocypher looks better, as is compatible with libsodium (which is popular)
15:42:27  <frosch123> TrueBrain: don't feed the trolls
15:42:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: :(
15:42:37  <TrueBrain> I really just had to
15:42:41  <milek7> as noted in PR
15:42:43  <milek7> "Monocypher was also considered but I decided against it as it requires random bytes to be supplied by application, which would require additional platform-specific code on our side."
15:43:01  <milek7> more platform-specific code on our side, but it is not that bad problem
15:43:18  <milek7> or use libsodium directly, but that is external dependency
15:43:20  <TrueBrain> we can just take that part from libhydrogen :P
15:43:36  <TrueBrain> external dependencies are not bad, as long as they are cross platform enough :)
15:44:58  <milek7> otoh, python and php probably exist for libhydrogen too
15:45:11  <milek7> *python and php bindings
15:45:46  <TrueBrain> cffi bindings last updated 2019
15:45:55  <TrueBrain> but okay, something to look into I would say :)
15:46:07  <TrueBrain> it would be ideal if we can also solve the admin port with this
15:46:12  <TrueBrain> 1 way to identify clients
15:46:15  <TrueBrain> gone all passwords
15:46:21  <TrueBrain> and I sit on a unicorn
15:46:25  <TrueBrain> so feel free to kick me off :P
15:50:58  <_dp_> is there even anyone who runs admin port over public network?
15:52:04  <TrueBrain> would I be surprised if there was?
15:55:19  <Samu> #8415 feels like a punch in my face
15:59:18  <_dp_> huh?
15:59:38  <andythenorth> oh Samu :(
15:59:53  <andythenorth> (1) I hope you haven't been punched in the face often IRL
16:00:06  <andythenorth> (2) if you have, sorry, but you'll know that a PR is nothing like a punch in the face
16:00:15  <andythenorth> having tried both, I feel qualified to comment
16:01:18  <TrueBrain> (3) the world is not against you; don't compare yourself to others, or your work to others. It is a futile endeavor
16:04:28  <andythenorth> wat?
16:04:35  <andythenorth> somebody should tell andythenorth this also
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16:17:51  <andythenorth> somebody @peter on twitter and tell him the stream?
16:17:58  <andythenorth> he might watch
16:26:40  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Look at the discord user list under OpenTTD developer?
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16:45:47  <andythenorth> o_O
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16:58:30  <TrueBrain> And only now he finds put? Omgggg
16:58:41  <TrueBrain> Put = out .. fat fingers
17:00:40  <TrueBrain> right, how do I add a file in the indexdb of a browser ...
17:08:48  <Samu> how do I add a linked issue on a PR?
17:11:01  <andythenorth> #number
17:11:04  <andythenorth> usually
17:11:06  <andythenorth> try it?
17:12:59  <Samu> just tried, didn't seem to change anything https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7947
17:13:08  <milek7> FS.createPreloadedFile("/home/web_user/.openttd/save", "wentbourne.sav", "https://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/wentbourne.sav", true, true)
17:13:43  <milek7> (CORS complains, though)
17:15:08  <TrueBrain> yeah, I just found that out too :D
17:15:10  <TrueBrain> tnx :)
17:15:15  <TrueBrain> but andythenorth's savegame crashes wasm :(
17:16:05  <TrueBrain> not sure why, honestly
17:16:11  <TrueBrain> guess an exception again
17:18:19  <TrueBrain> well, that is a bit sad
17:18:43  <TrueBrain> he loaded AIs in them
17:18:44  <TrueBrain> no wonder
17:18:45  <TrueBrain> who does that!
17:21:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLXOS
17:23:30  <TrueBrain> sorry andythenorth :( Can't load it in wasm ...
17:25:50  <TrueBrain> but the NewGRFs are enough for me to make one myself, I think :D
17:43:27  <TrueBrain> 1 hour and 17 minutes till stream ... PAM PAM PAMMMM
17:43:32  <TrueBrain> reminder to LordAro to make some dinner ;)
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17:49:20  <andythenorth> oh did I have civil AI in it?
17:49:41  <TrueBrain> a few times
17:49:42  <TrueBrain> and some GS
17:49:48  <TrueBrain> but I got a nice savegame now :)
17:50:06  <andythenorth> ha ha like 10 instances of CivilAI
17:50:11  <andythenorth> but competitors: 0
17:50:12  <andythenorth> lol
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18:13:52  <andythenorth> hmm
18:14:00  <andythenorth> FIRS ignores industry density setting?
18:14:17  <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1239547#p1239547 and reply https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1239551#p1239551
18:14:19  <TrueBrain> ask the author of FIRS
18:15:20  <andythenorth> the author of FIRS doesn't want to run the game on FFWD to see if random things randomly occur
18:15:43  <andythenorth> I think I file this one as 'information' and ignore it
18:17:59  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JLXs1
18:18:00  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:18:14  <TrueBrain> again missed your deadline of 15 minutes? Daaaammmmnnnn
18:18:20  <TrueBrain> means I really do have to fix it
18:19:10  <TrueBrain> wow, it was 27 minutes over the requested
18:20:03  <LordAro> TrueBrain: should be there in time :)
18:20:10  <TrueBrain> cool :)
18:20:41  <_dp_> andythenorth, it shouldn't be able to ignore fund only, mb there is gs messing with settings?
18:20:54  <_dp_> like simpleton's cb can do smth like that
18:21:06  <_dp_> though I'd expect it setting it to fund only but who knowns
18:21:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler updated pull request #8401: Change: Towns don't build dead-end road bridges https://git.io/JLzst
18:26:11  <glx> frosch123: possible solution https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/compare/master...glx22:switch_optimisation
18:27:25  <andythenorth> _dp_ frigging weird eh
18:28:15  <andythenorth> I don't want to spend ages verifying a negative, then player tells me they have a pp
18:32:00  *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd
18:32:22  <supermop_Home_> yo
18:32:32  <supermop_Home_> what are you streaming?
18:36:07  <andythenorth> mostly 'people try to work technology'
18:36:13  <andythenorth> it's like a new comedy show
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18:39:49  <supermop_Home_> i see
18:39:55  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl opened pull request #8422: Change: Add some style to GameScript question windows depending on the type https://git.io/JLXGQ
18:45:03  <andythenorth> 15 mins to stream!
18:45:19  <Samu> just realised the stream starts when i'm going to have dinner
18:45:25  <Samu> how long does it last?
18:46:21  <Xaroth> Best to answer that with a song
18:46:22  <Xaroth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqAvFx3NxUM
18:49:02  <_dp_> I just noticed there is a $ sign on openttd logo
18:49:12  <_dp_> considering the state of game economy looks like a troll :p
18:49:12  <LordAro> TrueBrain: might be a bit late :<
18:49:19  <LordAro> will be there as soon as i can
18:49:22  <TrueBrain> k k :)
18:49:28  <TrueBrain> you will screw up my OBS layout, but that is fine :P
18:49:42  <LordAro> i was gonna ask, do i need to let you know first? :p
18:49:59  <TrueBrain> it is fine
18:50:01  <Samu> comparing #8398 with master, in a real savegame, and wow... how something so tiny like a fraction of a fraction of a cargo heading to a different station changes the profits so drastically when i compare the profits a year later
18:50:02  <TrueBrain> give us something to laugh about
18:52:20  <Samu> well, gotta go, gl with your stream
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19:08:46  <supermop_Home_> Where is the stream
19:08:57  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ https://www.twitch.tv/openttdlive or discord
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20:34:24  <Heiki> just like IRC but with all those voices and pictures
20:35:21  <Xaroth> Wait, you dont' normally have voices in your head?
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20:35:41  <Heiki> just like IRC but with all those outside voices and pictures
20:35:50  <TrueBrain> so ... that "30 minutes stream" took a bit longer :P
20:36:12  <glx> typical :)
20:36:57  <LordAro> i have now worked out which sliders do what now
20:37:13  <LordAro> microphone should work better now :p
20:37:21  <Timberwolf> This is how video is, I had this bold plan of doing 20 minute episodes and pretty much every one I end up glancing at the OBS counter as it wanders past 23 minutes.
20:37:59  <michi_cc> Timberwolf: You want to be on next time (if there is a next time)?
20:38:02  <LordAro> god knows what "Internal mic" does, but it creates a lot of noise :p
20:38:26  <_dp_> nice stream!
20:38:42  <Timberwolf> michi_cc: I'd be happy to help (although I'd better set an alarm and calendar reminder!), if you're happy to have a lowly newgrf developer on :)
20:38:45  <_dp_> TrueBrain and andythenorth doing fantastic but a bit hard to understand others :(
20:39:13  <andythenorth> I think it's most important to try :)
20:39:41  <andythenorth> I wouldn't want anybody to be put off contributing
20:39:45  <frosch123> can we get sponsorship from github? we make a lot of people sign up to them
20:39:51  <frosch123> maybe then can offer free repository hosting or so
20:40:56  <andythenorth> Timberwolf they had me, and all I did was talk too much
20:41:24  <andythenorth> Timberwolf make some nml commits, then you can be more official :D
20:41:25  <frosch123> we need some non-nerds to keep the discussion flowing
20:42:09  <_dp_> btw, frosch123, with just 20 string args it's impossible to even replicate built in town cargo table in some cases :p
20:42:37  <andythenorth> so for the record, it's New Graph not New Gee R Fand Pee En Gee
20:42:43  <andythenorth> not ping
20:42:47  <andythenorth> oops typing
20:42:56  <Xaroth> just call them mods and watch everybody rage :P
20:43:00  <andythenorth> they're mods :P
20:44:13  <TrueBrain> _dp_: tnx :) And we will take that with us for next time .. better mic-check :D
20:45:03  <frosch123> well, given that my mic did not work at all 1 hour before stream :)
20:45:10  <andythenorth> oh noes, I talked over the hover-crash :O
20:45:12  <andythenorth> delay
20:45:23  <TrueBrain> yes, you did talk over it :P :D
20:45:40  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah .. that was .. cutting it close :P
20:45:48  <TrueBrain> but I also found some things I can do on my end to improve audio :)
20:45:51  <TrueBrain> for next time :)
20:46:34  <andythenorth> it's hard to judge the stream latency
20:46:37  <michi_cc> And also, just so fitting that my internet worked fine most of the time except the for the segments I wanted to talk more :p
20:46:43  <andythenorth> I wonder how streamers do it
20:47:06  <TrueBrain> michi_cc: that was HILARIOUS, sorry :D
20:47:28  * Timberwolf uses "new graph", although perhaps not an encouraging sign the context in which I last remember saying it was "you should never ever touch the newGRF settings and do what I've done"
20:47:39  <TrueBrain> I was annoyed about the music .. people saying it was copyrighted .. it really was public domain music
20:48:02  <Wolf01> andythenorth: you talk too fast :P
20:48:22  <andythenorth> yes
20:48:32  <andythenorth> and I don't enunciate properly
20:48:55  <andythenorth> I need to work on that
20:49:09  <Wolf01> Also you totally look like one of my ex coworkers, but I'm sure you aren't the same person because he didn't know a word of english :P
20:49:11  <andythenorth> when I talk to a live audience it's a lot more measured, I can see their reaction and time things
20:49:19  <andythenorth> Wolf01 there are only 14 people in the world
20:49:38  <_dp_> TrueBrain, chat can talk bs, welcome to twitch :p
20:49:41  <TrueBrain> I love giving training-sessions .. I hate doing it online .. the interaction is so important to pace yourself in a good ritm
20:49:48  <TrueBrain> _dp_: :D
20:50:21  <frosch123> who wants to reject 8421?
20:50:29  <andythenorth> NOOOO
20:50:34  <_dp_> ^^
20:50:35  <Wolf01> The only one I really understood was TB :P
20:50:52  <andythenorth> if we reject 8421, we can't have hover belts
20:51:05  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8421: Real hovercraft, refittable to eels https://git.io/JLXWr
20:51:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain closed pull request #8421: Real hovercraft, refittable to eels https://git.io/JLXTl
20:51:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you don't have to tell me twice :D
20:51:17  <_dp_> And I can't grf boats into zombies :/
20:51:40  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it was brilliantly done btw :) I love the build-up, and the execution :D
20:51:54  <andythenorth> +1
20:51:59  <TrueBrain> <Wolf01> The only one I really understood was TB :P <- even over the Dutch accent? :P
20:52:01  <andythenorth> funniest part of the stream
20:52:16  <frosch123> i had to carefully watch your screen, when was what visible :p
20:53:20  <TrueBrain> https://www.twitch.tv/openttdlive/clip/SpineyAlertGalagoGivePLZ <- you have been clipped :)
20:54:21  <frosch123> oh damn, did not consider that. i should never have done it
20:54:46  <TrueBrain> it is perfect how andy talks over it :) It just sums up the whole experience of tonight :D
20:54:53  <TrueBrain> really happy we did it guys :) Was nice to see an active chat too
20:55:01  <TrueBrain> was surprised how many people were still alive at the end :P
20:55:54  <LordAro> _dp_: graph boats*
20:56:13  <Wolf01> <TrueBrain> <Wolf01> The only one I really understood was TB :P <- even over the Dutch accent? :P <- better than plain dutch (yes, I follow a youtube channel in dutch)
20:56:34  <LordAro> TB's accent is not particularly strong, imo
20:56:35  <_dp_> STOP IT :p
20:57:04  <Xaroth> TB's accent clearly shows he's talked English a lot
20:57:35  <andythenorth> it's funny how we've gone all inter-personal
20:57:42  <LordAro> and andy was perfectly understandable to me, but... native language
20:57:44  <Xaroth> but I didn't have trouble understanding any of the people on comms
20:57:45  <andythenorth> can we not talk about C++14 esoterics or something?
20:58:19  <LordAro> andythenorth: but what if i want to talk about people's hair styles?
20:58:28  <andythenorth> TrueBrain already talked about mine
21:00:24  <andythenorth> next live stream, April 1st?
21:00:30  <Wolf01> Ahaha
21:00:34  <TrueBrain> to present the release? That is not a bad idea
21:00:36  <TrueBrain> go over all the new shit
21:00:40  <TrueBrain> and talk shit about it
21:00:48  <andythenorth> no
21:01:02  <andythenorth> we get JGR on the stream and play JGRPP
21:01:04  <andythenorth> :P
21:01:15  <TrueBrain> hahahahahaha
21:01:19  <TrueBrain> owh, I fucking like it :D
21:01:27  <TrueBrain> in general, I tried to play the game today to prepare for stream
21:01:30  <TrueBrain> it was not fun :P
21:01:43  <andythenorth> countdown is repeating? https://www.twitch.tv/openttdlive
21:01:52  <TrueBrain> yes, next week again right?
21:01:57  <Wolf01> I tried to setup at least 40 games before giving up because I was not satisfied
21:02:07  <andythenorth> Wolf01 main issues?
21:02:59  <FLHerne> Good idea, but do it sooner :p
21:03:11  <FLHerne> And leave April 1st for the release
21:03:17  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: fixed
21:03:24  <andythenorth> \o/
21:03:25  <Wolf01> Wrong choice of grf (missing stuff, too much stuff/unbalanced), wrong routes lumber->wood or shit like that
21:04:20  <_dp_> LordAro, https://i.imgur.com/zJO0OBC.png
21:04:36  <Wolf01> Lol
21:05:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] twpol commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLXlf
21:07:34  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLXlT
21:07:39  <Timberwolf> It's weird hearing people discuss #8095, as I know twpol irl.
21:10:14  <andythenorth> small world? :)
21:10:19  <TrueBrain> give him some compliments for us, would you :D
21:10:34  <TrueBrain> code-wise it is pretty spot-on :)
21:10:41  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] twpol commented on pull request #8342: Feature #8095: Allow automatically separating vehicles in shared orders https://git.io/JLXlt
21:10:57  <Timberwolf> Passed on :)
21:11:10  <_dp_> oh, and who said copy-paste is bad for competitive servers?
21:11:10  <TrueBrain> the feature itself .. well .. we went over that in length I think how difficult that is for us :)
21:11:22  <TrueBrain> one of us 5 .. but it was not me :)
21:11:23  <_dp_> was funny to hear considering I plan to release it into a wild soon :p
21:11:36  <TrueBrain> let us know the feedback you get on it :)
21:11:40  <_dp_> ofc
21:12:10  <_dp_> it openttd kind of "soon" though, keep in mind :p
21:12:16  <_dp_> like 1.11 probably xD
21:13:00  <andythenorth> it was me
21:13:09  <andythenorth> but being wrong is kind of an artform for me
21:14:26  <_dp_> well, even I'm not completely sure yet if that was right or wrong xD
21:14:57  <_dp_> though if anything I worry more about griefers than competitive stuff
21:16:08  <andythenorth> griefers gonna griefer
21:16:56  <_dp_> yeah, but with c&p you can build swastikas 10 times faster....
21:18:38  <andythenorth> I saw that on reddit
21:18:45  <andythenorth> I was 11 once too
21:22:16  <andythenorth> _dp_ so newgrf copy-paste patch then?
21:23:30  <_dp_> how do I make puking smiley in irc?
21:24:21  <andythenorth> link to a unicode web font for it
21:28:18  <Heiki> 🤮
21:28:48  <_dp_> Heiki, ty, I was too lazy to do that myself xD
21:29:06  <frosch123> i like that one guy on discord: huh, they don't know what newgrf are? no point in watching this stream
21:29:33  <andythenorth> communication gaps :D
21:29:34  <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1239559#p1239559
21:29:40  <andythenorth> ^ better instead
21:32:43  <andythenorth> this https://i.redd.it/7kcrg4pzmz661.png
21:32:46  <andythenorth> is outstanding
21:33:23  <frosch123> ships!
21:33:47  <Timberwolf> I like those hyper-detailed 64x64 maps
21:35:10  <andythenorth> Steeltown v4 64x64
21:35:12  <andythenorth> is even possible?
21:35:13  * andythenorth tries
21:35:18  <andythenorth> could be a good contest
21:35:22  <andythenorth> this is why we need MMORG
21:36:18  <_dp_> how did it suddenly turn into mmorpg?
21:37:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 merged pull request #175: Fix mixing action features and variable scopes. https://git.io/JIEyz
21:37:49  <andythenorth> _dp_ innovation!
21:38:12  <andythenorth> everyone plays same map, in their own game, we can spectate
21:38:19  * andythenorth making things up as ideas
21:38:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 merged pull request #176: Add constants introduced in OpenTTD/OpenTTD#8392. https://git.io/JLRst
21:38:52  <_dp_> andythenorth, hm... doesn't have to be own game btw, can just clone islands on mp map
21:39:09  <andythenorth> that too
21:39:17  <andythenorth> can we lock companies to a region of the map?
21:39:24  <_dp_> I can :p
21:39:37  <andythenorth> regions!
21:39:52  <_dp_> was planning to do some competive stuff like that btw
21:39:59  <_dp_> just low priority
21:40:05  <andythenorth> too 10 map gen attempts to place all the industries https://grf.farm/images/64x64-steeltown.png
21:40:08  <andythenorth> took *
21:40:23  <andythenorth> and the port-in-a-lake disturbs me greatly
21:40:27  <andythenorth> goes it throw out lakes?
21:41:25  <andythenorth> I think the only solution for this map is freight hovercraft
21:41:29  <andythenorth> using the new feature
21:41:58  <Timberwolf> Port-a-ponds are classic FIRS :p
21:42:14  <andythenorth> so bothers me
21:42:21  <andythenorth> nice name though
21:42:23  <_dp_> idk, ports look fine too me
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21:42:32  <_dp_> if it's no water border everything is kind of just lake
21:42:42  <_dp_> some are just cut off
21:42:48  <andythenorth> there's really no viable solution either
21:42:54  <andythenorth> because terraforming
21:43:21  <Timberwolf> I hadn't thought of that. I was mostly still considering how expensive connectivity analysis for water tiles would be.
21:43:23  <andythenorth> and not getting the industries placed
21:43:34  <andythenorth> connectivity to map borders could be cached
21:43:50  <andythenorth> it's just a list of all the water tiles that connect to border, at map gen
21:44:00  <andythenorth> but then...players change map
21:44:41  <andythenorth> I do newgame a lot :P
21:44:44  <_dp_> well, it's just a map scan worst case
21:44:48  <_dp_> and only for splits
21:44:56  <_dp_> joins can be done fast
21:45:24  <andythenorth> on a 4kx4k map, requiring 'must connect to map edge' could be horrible gameplay
21:45:33  <andythenorth> also pathological case, no water edges on map?
21:46:00  <andythenorth> 'good enough' might be counting minimum number of connected water tiles
21:46:06  <_dp_> that's why I say it only makes sense with water borders
21:46:13  <andythenorth> big lakes are fine, right?  Look at Baikal P
21:46:19  <andythenorth> or Como
21:46:21  <andythenorth> or whatever
21:49:56  <andythenorth> eh I generated like 50 maps, no ports in lakes
21:50:05  <andythenorth> my daily RNG seed isn't helping
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21:52:48  <supermop_Home_> whats annoying is when you get a long river that ends in a small lake, just a few tiles separated from the ocean
21:53:11  <andythenorth> landscape fixer-upper script :P
21:53:26  <supermop_Home_> i wish map gen could join up the little disconnected bits of water
21:53:55  <andythenorth> it's probably quite intensive to do properly
21:54:54  <andythenorth> NewGRF Landscape spec
21:55:06  <andythenorth> NewGRF Regions spec
21:55:28  <Timberwolf> Dwarf Fortress style - you can't create a transport company until the land has 1900 years worth of legends, societal factions and history.
21:57:19  <andythenorth> maybe this would advance if we started making a list of existing features / properties / callbacks
21:57:52  <andythenorth> it's kind of why I made this https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/discussions/8384
21:58:15  <andythenorth> if we want moddable 'time' we need to know about all the time based loops, callbacks etc
21:58:30  <andythenorth> if we want moddable X, we need a list of current things using X
22:02:33  <Timberwolf> I realised this is your use case for vehicles. Play in groundhog mode, and you only get a new vehicle every 10,000 vehicles you produce in-game.
22:02:50  <supermop_Home_> need to run each map on ff for 1000 years before each game
22:03:18  <andythenorth> Timberwolf I think that can be done in GS :D
22:03:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7886: Group management enhancements https://git.io/JLX8F
22:04:50  <andythenorth> Timberwolf V says nice sprites by the way
22:04:51  <frosch123> TrueBrain: what to do with a PR when some parts are "candidate:yes" and others are not?
22:05:08  <frosch123> create new PR with the good parts, close the old one?
22:05:08  <andythenorth> I tried to sell V on OGFX revival
22:05:09  <TrueBrain> feel free to overrule any "candidate" label
22:05:13  <TrueBrain> I just did that to quickly scan everything :)
22:05:21  <Timberwolf> andythenorth: Thanks via proxy :)
22:05:24  <TrueBrain> and yes, that is better :P
22:05:33  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ you could fix the ogfx hotel for christmas
22:05:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: that was not my question :)
22:05:43  <TrueBrain> sorry, misread :D
22:05:43  <andythenorth> I think I might have approval rights on ogfx
22:05:48  <TrueBrain> yes, pick the parts that are good, close the rest :D
22:10:36  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I just force-push back in people's branch :P Not sure that is polite :)
22:10:40  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth the hotel with a pool on the roof?
22:10:58  <supermop_Home_> or the one that firs uses
22:11:25  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it has the advantage that you can approve and merge it yourself :p
22:11:33  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ this one https://grf.farm/images/hotel.png
22:11:39  <TrueBrain> I did NOT make use of that lately AT ALL :P
22:11:47  <supermop_Home_> yeah that hotel sucks
22:12:02  <supermop_Home_> also it doesn't really look like a hotel to me
22:12:18  <frosch123> but well, now that i no longer have to make troll patches, i have some free time :p
22:12:33  <andythenorth> it's a bad render of the original base set hotel
22:12:46  * andythenorth now lost in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBFE7PWJHDk
22:13:16  <Timberwolf> It does look a bit like the output you get out of GoRender when you have horrible manifest settings, like... er... the defaults it ships with :/
22:13:27  <andythenorth> I was never obsessed by steelmaking until a couple of years ago, what happened :P
22:13:36  *** Silver has joined #openttd
22:13:41  <andythenorth> I think it's the massive amounts of thousand degree molten metal that make it interesting
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22:15:15  <supermop_Home_> some of the poor cad work i find myself fizing is due to disregard of cad standards, or that my company doesn't make them clear...
22:15:29  <supermop_Home_> but some of it seems to be outright puzzling
22:15:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: i recognise some heqs vehicles
22:15:57  <supermop_Home_> like it had to be more effort to draw this sloppy in this way than to draw it correctly
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22:16:06  <andythenorth> frosch123 yes
22:16:31  <frosch123> i think heqs is probably still my favorite grf of all times.
22:16:39  <supermop_Home_> like a lines that are somehow not aligned by like 0.0001 mm
22:16:50  <andythenorth> HEQS revival
22:17:03  <andythenorth> I didn't worry about it making sense, I just drew funny stuff
22:17:05  <supermop_Home_> or weird extra shapes floating around
22:17:34  <andythenorth> poor CAD sinks ships!
22:17:37  <andythenorth> etc
22:17:42  <supermop_Home_> dimensions using a different font from drawing to drawing
22:18:01  <andythenorth> if I could stop drawing trains, I could do NRT version of HEQS
22:18:07  <andythenorth> trains addiction
22:18:16  <michi_cc> In case I actually play, HEQS is always in my GRF list.
22:18:25  <andythenorth> I haven't used it for ages
22:20:00  * andythenorth looks for ButGroundTypes
22:20:21  <andythenorth> trying to sort out all the landscape modding aspects in my head
22:22:18  <supermop_Home_> a 4 or 5 tile horse train seems to take between 4-7 days to load and unload passengers, depending on how many need to get off. It also seems to take 4+ days to clear a 5 tile platform and the signal beyond it
22:23:04  <supermop_Home_> meaning that a generous feeling 10 day headway is actually somewhere between razor thin and completely unworkable
22:24:14  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ loading times is one of my last real 'to-do' items
22:24:16  <supermop_Home_> if you have a line where trains from 3 routes run together, then you end up with at most once a month per route, if you can manage it
22:24:51  <andythenorth> I have a total disinterest in properly testing it (like setting up a fully staged savegame)
22:25:05  <andythenorth> if you have actionable comments, put them in forum thread? :D
22:25:09  <andythenorth> I do need to sort it ou
22:25:11  <andythenorth> out
22:25:39  <supermop_Home_> well that's the thing... it is nice to have different loading speeds per wagon type
22:26:23  <supermop_Home_> i wonder if the issue is most with the load speed or the desired headway
22:27:06  <andythenorth> the loading speed may currently be broken
22:27:27  <andythenorth> it's supposed to vary by coach type, but I have a note here saying it doesn't
22:27:44  <Timberwolf> I regularly break this.
22:28:35  <andythenorth> also, trains that reduce running costs if the consist contains restaurant car / observation car / motorail wagons?
22:28:46  <Timberwolf> Then 6 months later get a report saying something like, "I don't want to bother you too much, but I was playing a game and the Coronation Tram took 46 years to load a full cargo of passengers, is that a gameplay mechanic I'm not understanding properly?"
22:28:47  <andythenorth> I have no way to increase payment rates, so how about nerfing costs for same result?
22:28:58  <andythenorth> lol TW :)
22:30:18  <andythenorth> 'reduced running cost = higher profit' is a very accounting type mindset :P
22:30:26  <andythenorth> not sure players will appreciate the mechanic
22:33:25  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth patch the game so that station rating increases if visited by vehicle with dining service , but only if vehicle traveled long enough for dinner to be served before stopping there?
22:33:43  <andythenorth> - the 'long enough part'
22:34:04  <andythenorth> vehicles could maybe have 'attractiveness' cb result?
22:34:18  <andythenorth> which is summed for the consist, and used for station rating influence
22:34:30  <andythenorth> replacing the current mad 'vehicle is quite new and fast' scoring
22:34:53  <supermop_Home_> tbh that makes more sense than the "is it more than a year old, and does it go faster than 80kmh"
22:34:55  <supermop_Home_> yeah
22:35:05  <andythenorth> and cargos could have a matching 'affinity to attractiveness'
22:35:12  <andythenorth> like Slag cargo doesn't care
22:35:41  <supermop_Home_> also judging by transit riders and foamers alike, any brand new vehicle should have negative attractiveness
22:35:41  <andythenorth> pissing around with profit / payments isn't very interesting
22:35:51  <andythenorth> I got a lot more interested in ratings since I learnt about statues
22:35:59  <andythenorth> I thought I was stuck at 67% forever
22:36:00  <Timberwolf> There is a weird disconnect between the politeness/reluctance of people reporting serious gameplay bugs and minor things.
22:36:14  <andythenorth> I assumed ratings was just a broken mechanic
22:36:15  <supermop_Home_> statue should be an office
22:36:27  <andythenorth> Timberwolf entitlement :D
22:36:52  <andythenorth> statue hack is amazing
22:36:57  <andythenorth> transformed my game
22:37:03  <andythenorth> I might have to rebuild FIRS to account for it
22:37:26  <Timberwolf> So on one side you'll get, "the 335d makes a static revving sound when leaving the depot, despite the fact it should be in gear, this is literally unplayable, put in a parameter to disable it so I never have to hear this game ruining sound again"
22:38:09  <andythenorth> TW people are both the best and worst :)
22:38:37  <Timberwolf> And on the other you'll gt, "v1.2.2 only contains one vehicle, this is probably something I'm doing wrong, or if it's an avant-garde gameplay choice I respect that you doing that as an author and I'll learn to play in a way to enjoy it"
22:38:44  <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf also sound like real transit riders
22:39:59  <Timberwolf> Heh, yes - I remember many years following South West Trains Twitter back in my commuting days.
22:40:21  <Timberwolf> One person got incredibly angry they gave mince pies to people with first class season tickets one year.
22:40:39  <andythenorth> the "OpenTTD devs don't even know what newgrf is???!!" discord comment has made my day
22:40:46  <andythenorth> that wins internet for Wednesday
22:41:15  <twpol> 😂
22:46:39  <Timberwolf> I still need to get some good CC-BY-SA compatible loops of diesels and things.
22:47:40  <Timberwolf> Maybe once the pandemic fades I can go to some sort of diesel gala and out-nerd all the people there by turning up with a fairly serious microphone and a laptop.
22:47:59  <andythenorth> I did find a site of recordings
22:48:06  <andythenorth> but I think they're rights reserved
22:48:07  <Timberwolf> "I'm not here to see the trains, I just want some sounds to add in to a 26 year old stategy game"
22:48:24  <andythenorth> I have a thing on my kids' train board, you can put 4 MP3s on a sound chip, and press buttons
22:48:38  <Timberwolf> Yeah, the big problem is getting ones that are compatible with BY-SA so people can use them for streams and videos without worrying.
22:49:13  <andythenorth> can you also record some industry noises thx bai
22:49:20  <andythenorth> like the sawmill, but more annoying
22:49:36  <Timberwolf> I live in East London, if you want to add "craft cider distillery" to FIRS 5 then sure.
22:49:48  <andythenorth> FIRS 5!
22:49:55  <andythenorth> oof I should finish FIRS 4
22:49:57  <Timberwolf> FIRS Hipstertown economy.
22:50:07  <frosch123> i never know which firs version is the current one :)
22:50:15  <andythenorth> me neither
22:50:22  <andythenorth> I keep getting really depressed(?) something about the supplies mechanic
22:50:27  <andythenorth> it runs on multiple callbacks
22:50:29  <Timberwolf> Craft brewery, Yarn works, Artisan coffee shop.
22:50:42  <andythenorth> so it turns out the 'supplied' text in industry window will probably be a lie
22:50:48  <andythenorth> whichever callback I use to trigger it
22:51:10  <andythenorth> players won't notice, but...I'll know :D
22:51:49  <andythenorth> oh only a problem for ports
22:51:56  <andythenorth> maybe I should just ship it and move on
22:52:17  <Timberwolf> I'm amazed how few reports I get about the eventual consistency in Villages Is Villages.
22:52:59  <_dp_> Timberwolf, too few players know what eventual consistency is :p
22:53:39  <andythenorth> the current playerbase seems to be leaning more towards eye candy than in former days
22:53:42  <Timberwolf> The gap between "town should stop/start growing" -> "town stops/starts growing" -> "this is reflected in the town window" can get pretty big once there are more than a few hundred, and I think the only person to complain is one who had it fail to ever initialise on some 4k x 4k high town density map.
22:53:56  <andythenorth> the spreadsheet analysis crowd have timetables to obsess over
22:54:26  <Timberwolf> I do like that playstyle, even though I have no intention of ever trying myself.
22:54:26  <andythenorth> Timberwolf 'no callbacks in GS you say?' :P
22:54:45  <_dp_> andythenorth, eye candy crowd just have more pictures to post :p
22:55:05  <andythenorth> discord doesn't natively render .xlsx?
22:55:07  <_dp_> I can post spreadsheets all day but who cares?
22:55:20  <Timberwolf> IMO it's similar to people who build a perfect scale layout of a station in OO or N scale and spend Saturday replicating the exact movements that took place 3rd November 1963 or whatever.
22:55:45  <Timberwolf> It's not something I'd ever do, but I like reading about the work and research that went into it.
22:55:49  <andythenorth> I have 28 boxes containing 20 trains each, and 1.2m by 1m oval
22:55:52  <andythenorth> in OO
22:56:06  <andythenorth> this seems like Horse also
22:56:26  <Timberwolf> I have 1 box with an N gauge loco and some Mk1 carriages in, and just about enough track to make a small oval.
22:56:31  <Timberwolf> It needs the motor reconditioning.
22:56:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SJang1 opened issue #8423: Can't build on Mac https://git.io/JLXBh
22:57:00  * Timberwolf can just about recondition a '70s record turntable motor, because that's big, chunky and easy.
22:57:40  <andythenorth> _dp_ can you post spreadsheet of entire current economy simulation and landscape simulation (town growth etc)?  Including all periodic loops and all callbacks?
22:57:47  <andythenorth> and which ones currently have settings?
22:58:01  <andythenorth> and all their default values in base game
22:59:10  <_dp_> andythenorth, you sure you want spreadsheet and not a diagram of some sorts?
22:59:43  <andythenorth> NFI, whatever works for other people
22:59:51  <andythenorth> I tend to pictures, most don't :P
23:00:15  <andythenorth> I am not trolling btw
23:00:27  <_dp_> what I usually do is stuff like this: https://citymania.org/tools/profit
23:00:42  <_dp_> or https://citymania.org/tools/townsim  (hit 'b' and 'start')
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23:01:19  <andythenorth> oh I love townsim you showed me before :)
23:02:03  <andythenorth> it's really quite amazing
23:02:57  <andythenorth> oh your cargo chart
23:03:17  <andythenorth> so I was trying to figure out, 'everyone knows profit is highest for longest distance' right?
23:03:24  <andythenorth> like that's just written everywhere as a truth
23:03:37  <andythenorth> but algorithm doesn't support that
23:03:42  <andythenorth> so what is facts?
23:04:00  <_dp_> it depends
23:04:37  <_dp_> like if you switch to lev4 and profit per cargo which is kinda the most common case optimal distances are like 6k
23:05:22  <_dp_> but if you have limited trains it's better to make them shorter
23:05:30  <_dp_> routes shorted I mean
23:05:37  <_dp_> still quite far though
23:05:55  <_dp_> like 3k
23:06:18  * andythenorth tries MJS250
23:06:37  <Timberwolf> I did http://timberwolf.woaf.net/ttdist/ ages ago, no idea if it's correct (like I forgot I'd even created it)
23:06:44  <andythenorth> which is the right chart for actual profit?
23:07:01  <andythenorth> yearly income shows what I'd expect, clearly drops after an early peak
23:07:42  <_dp_> depends on what profit you mean
23:07:56  <andythenorth> net income after operating cost
23:08:04  <andythenorth> ignoring capital cost
23:08:08  <_dp_> if you have limited amount of trains use yearly income otherwise per cargo
23:08:24  <_dp_> or if you're just starting the new game then 200k start I guess
23:08:34  <andythenorth> so the profit per cargo charts look like they'll increase forever?
23:08:39  <andythenorth> as distance increases?
23:08:46  <_dp_> they all increase forever
23:09:12  <andythenorth> because decay penalty is capped?
23:09:16  <_dp_> well, start doesn't I guess
23:09:16  * andythenorth doesn't understand really
23:09:22  <_dp_> andythenorth, yep
23:10:02  <_dp_> oh, actually yearly income doesn't increase also
23:10:18  <andythenorth> so take say 30k tile route
23:10:24  <_dp_> well, yearly income is basicaly cargo payment rate if you think about it, just adjusted for train acceleration
23:10:26  <andythenorth> train could travel 15k tile route twice in same time
23:10:38  <andythenorth> but the 30k still makes more profit
23:11:03  * andythenorth tries to do maths
23:11:13  <_dp_> yeah, because on 30k it stops less
23:11:50  <andythenorth> yeah so stoppage time makes sense
23:12:12  <_dp_> yep, and acceleration
23:12:19  <andythenorth> I guess I was wrong on discord then
23:12:32  <andythenorth> the cap on decay does reward longest distance
23:12:33  <_dp_> like, the whole point of that tool is that it actually simulates train movement
23:12:47  <andythenorth> yeah I can see the counts
23:12:47  <Timberwolf> The thing with short routes is the slow bits of entering/leaving the station and loading are proportionately larger.
23:13:35  <andythenorth> ok so js charts for openttd client then
23:13:43  <andythenorth> both of those implementations are nice
23:14:07  <andythenorth> we embedded node and webkit already?
23:16:08  <frosch123> tb kicked me last time i suggested to port ottd gui to qt and render html/css in windows, and make gs supply js for custom guis
23:17:41  <andythenorth> I could write a python templater for javascript
23:17:56  <andythenorth> the escaping for those is quite evil, I usually have to get someone to help
23:18:55  <_dp_> embed browser in openttd so you can play openttd in browser in openttd in browser! :p
23:19:48  <frosch123> wait a minute
23:19:49  <andythenorth> Timberwolf ask Swearing Kevo on YT to record for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu7Ij8XeTxQ
23:19:58  <frosch123> what about adding a wasm link to all bananas content
23:20:05  <frosch123> and starting wasm ottd with the selected newgrf
23:20:11  <frosch123> so you can playtest content in browser?
23:20:21  <TrueBrain> With savegames showing them off?
23:20:31  <andythenorth> _dp_ you want me to repost this _again_ https://rockpapercynic.com/strips/2011-11-25.jpg
23:20:31  <frosch123> yes
23:20:46  <TrueBrain> I think that can seriously be really cool
23:20:47  <andythenorth> wasm link, with a GHA job that screenshots
23:20:49  <frosch123> forget bananas screenshots :) bananas savegames!
23:20:57  <andythenorth> gifs or go home
23:21:29  <andythenorth> hmm ponies are old news, Infinite Turtle Fortress is the new thing
23:21:35  <TrueBrain> Being able to load asave external save game in wasm is something I am going to look into this week :D
23:21:53  <TrueBrain> Also why it kept crashing today ..
23:21:54  <glx> #8423 is weird, if I understand correctly JGR master is ok but JGR-0.39.1 or openttd master fail, but I see no obvious change in cmake area
23:22:20  <_dp_> as cool as it all sounds checking newgrfs in game isn't that hard already :P
23:22:39  <TrueBrain> The content service UI sucks balls
23:22:59  <TrueBrain> Totally unusable to find anything, unless you know what you want
23:23:14  <_dp_> that yes
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23:23:35  <TrueBrain> Anyway, time for zzzzzzz
23:23:37  <_dp_> also it's quite a puzzle to combine anything decently playable out of all that stuff
23:24:38  <TrueBrain> Presets on BaNaNaS you say?
23:25:35  <_dp_> well...
23:25:42  <Timberwolf> A lot of the metadata (naming, tagging) on BaNaNaS dates from the forum days when we all knew what the cryptic ETLAs meant.
23:25:54  <_dp_> with my ocd last time I tried to combine anything decent I ended up knee deep in nml :p
23:27:41  <_dp_> (and yes there is now one more newgrf that noone ever needed :p)
23:29:18  <andythenorth> I enjoyed this recent thread https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=87949
23:31:05  <_dp_> I have 443 but mostly play vanilla :p
23:31:18  <_dp_> well, no so much vanilla I guess but without newgrfs :p
23:31:27  <frosch123> glx: your switch-scope-optimisation-fix looks good
23:31:37  <frosch123> way easier than the ideas before
23:31:56  <glx> yeah but doesn't solve random switch
23:32:43  <frosch123> ah, you would have to replace random-switch with non-random switch :)
23:32:51  <andythenorth> do we need random switch?
23:32:56  <andythenorth> I find it terrifying
23:33:00  <glx> I tried, didn't work very well
23:33:02  * andythenorth dials down drama
23:33:10  <andythenorth> I find it fragile, odd, and hard to use
23:33:18  <andythenorth> I don't like breakable magic
23:33:20  <frosch123> random-switch is a problem, yes
23:33:27  <frosch123> maybe not optimise it at all
23:33:39  <frosch123> and instead replace it with something better
23:33:40  <andythenorth> magic has to be 100% or no magic
23:34:07  <glx> so maybe I'll just skip complex expression but still optimise simple cases, like refs and constant
23:35:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: btw. do you have a wig? chat complained there were no girls on the stream/dev-team (technially we don't know whether the latter is true)
23:36:16  <andythenorth> who was that in chat trolling? :)
23:36:18  <andythenorth> it was someone here
23:36:43  <andythenorth> I have avoided the whole pronouns debate, but I no longer assume he/him
23:36:56  <andythenorth> but we are remarkably apparently-male
23:37:01  <frosch123> i got very used to always use "they"
23:37:08  <andythenorth> it is the easiest solution
23:37:11  <andythenorth> or use their name
23:37:33  <Timberwolf> Yeah, I do that a lot when we have interview candidates and they haven't clearly expressed a preference.
23:37:41  <andythenorth> even the World Of Toxic Blitz has more female playerbase than we seem to have
23:37:44  <supermop_Home_> now here someone wrote a bunch of scales backwards
23:38:05  <andythenorth> I would say trains are peculiarly male obsession, but there are female YT train fans
23:38:06  <frosch123> i am bad at names. originally i wanted to name the pr authors, but i did not manage to showcase a pr in game while also glancing back at the pr author :)
23:38:20  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth part of that is inherited from train norms in soceity
23:38:47  <frosch123> ships are female!
23:39:09  <supermop_Home_> like its not so much openttd's fault but 190 years worth of toxic male anoraks
23:39:19  <andythenorth> yes, but it's a cute world-building game
23:39:24  <supermop_Home_> indeed
23:39:28  <frosch123> programmnig used to be a women's job :)
23:39:31  <andythenorth> it did
23:39:40  <frosch123> real men do hardware or so
23:39:44  <andythenorth> 'cut me off an inch'
23:39:45  <_dp_> but not for long :p
23:39:46  <Timberwolf> My younger stepsister played Transport Tycoon when I first got it.
23:39:54  <supermop_Home_> maybe the trains are what poisons it as compared to like sim city
23:40:01  <andythenorth> oh wrong quote
23:40:03  <Timberwolf> She was too young to understand the idea of cargo chains, but enjoyed making train and bus lines.
23:40:16  <andythenorth> 'please cut off a nano-second and send it over to me'
23:40:20  <Timberwolf> I should ask if she's up for trying it again :)
23:41:14  <supermop_Home_> someone tagged all these drawings as 1' = 1/2" instead of vis versa
23:41:23  <andythenorth> I considered having non-gendered Horse engineer names
23:41:29  <andythenorth> then I decided to fuck that off https://grf.farm/iron-horse/2.16.0/html/scorcher.html
23:41:37  <Timberwolf> supermop_Home_: Time for malicious compliance. Build what the diagram says.
23:41:46  <andythenorth> I also considered if it looks too woke, then I decided that can fuck off too
23:41:49  <supermop_Home_> very very tiny cabinet
23:42:26  <andythenorth> https://grf.farm/iron-horse/2.16.0/html/sunshine_coast.html
23:42:52  <supermop_Home_> maybe i need to hold a remedial drafting class for my coworkers
23:43:14  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ I would finish for christmas :P
23:43:32  <andythenorth> even USA has to have a day off
23:45:43  <supermop_Home_> most of my colleagues are off today
23:46:42  <supermop_Home_> i was supposed to do this yesterday but instead messed about trying to timetable three routes of horse trains through a 2 train station
23:46:58  <supermop_Home_> off all next week, can look at hotel
23:47:00  <Timberwolf> I did pretty much a full day, although at about 4pm partner started making prosecco snowballs so I might log in tomorrow to find I have about 2 hours of programming to swiftly undo.
23:47:36  <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf i started drinking at 5 but just winter IPAs so far
23:48:02  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ at least yesterday was productive :D
23:48:18  <supermop_Home_> but wife just pulled out some photos from a trip to Cuba few years back so Ron is on the horizon
23:48:37  <Timberwolf> I spent about a year working in a proper Lloyd's market insurer (way before the current lunchtime drinking crackdown) so I'm well-acquainted with developing at or unfortunately only near the Ballmer peak.
23:48:54  <supermop_Home_> also went shopping for feast of 7 fishes ingredients this afternoon and was a madhouse
23:49:31  <supermop_Home_> but bought a 750ml of Brooklyn Brewery's yearly 'black Ops' special stout release
23:50:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's a 312 or so?
23:50:19  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
23:50:26  <andythenorth> yes, mostly I am pointing out gendered engineering :)
23:50:41  <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf now that i work in hospitality interiors there is way more drinking at work but it not much balmerism in this industry
23:50:54  <supermop_Home_> maybe that is where all this horrible CAD work came from
23:52:03  <supermop_Home_> speaking of which
23:52:11  <Timberwolf> A couple of years ago I worked for a company who made the decision, "we can fix our horrific workplace environment... or we could just not ask our employees where they disappear Wednesday lunchtime, most of Thursday afternoon, and the entirety of Friday from 12.20pm"
23:53:01  <supermop_Home_> that's a lot like this one
23:53:16  <supermop_Home_> which does have a London, sf and Bangkok office
23:53:42  <supermop_Home_> i thought it was a way more 'have our act together' place when i was interviewing
23:53:59  <supermop_Home_> as its kinda a renowned firm in our sector
23:54:05  <supermop_Home_> turns out not at all
23:54:22  <Timberwolf> I didn't have that excuse back in 2015, it was more a personal challenge to see how much I could change.
23:54:48  <supermop_Home_> by far worst work environment and most dysfunctional office ive every worked in
23:55:37  <supermop_Home_> and ive worked for a few that were essentially '(increasingly less) rich man-child's hobby project'
23:56:12  <Timberwolf> I count any job where I don't have to explain the relationship between paying suppliers and suppliers continuing their service to be a success these days.
23:57:17  <supermop_Home_> In-laws in HNL have sent coconut and Macadamia Nut cocktail syrups that just arrived... the universe really wants me to open up some rum....
23:58:52  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ so you're working for The Donald now?
23:59:05  <supermop_Home_> Timberwolf what's the craft beer scene in E. London these days? haven been in ages
23:59:16  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth good lord
23:59:35  <andythenorth> also why don't we have OpenTTD merch?
23:59:39  <andythenorth> it's like the thing to do
23:59:47  <andythenorth> Make OpenTTD Great Again
23:59:50  <andythenorth> red hats