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00:28:56 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 00:28:56 *** glx is now known as Guest1055 00:28:56 *** glx_ is now known as glx 00:35:19 *** Guest1055 has quit IRC 00:52:24 *** yeoldetoast has joined #openttd 01:13:57 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 01:42:27 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 01:47:50 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 02:18:45 *** tokai has joined #openttd 02:18:45 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 02:19:00 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JcnWn 02:32:48 *** Tirili has quit IRC 02:51:46 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 02:55:05 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:04:29 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog 03:15:14 *** glx has quit IRC 03:16:22 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 03:16:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 03:23:00 *** tokai has quit IRC 03:50:19 *** roadt_ has joined #openttd 03:56:42 *** roadt__ has quit IRC 04:07:25 *** snail_UES_ has quit 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depot and has to go to the correct buoys going towards it's first dock 10:47:35 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 10:47:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 10:48:55 <Samu> depot > buoys segment 1 > first dock > reverse buoys segment 1 > depot > reverse buoys segment 2 > second dock > buoys segment 2 10:53:12 <Samu> i realized i can't use distance manhattan 10:54:29 *** tokai has quit IRC 10:55:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis commented on pull request #9405: Reduce allocations in string handling https://git.io/JcCfE 10:57:22 <Samu> the problem is knowing where to start at the correct index of the array of buoys and where to end 10:58:06 <Samu> the array doesn't include the ship depot 11:00:39 <peter1138> When your Excel export goes up to column FK there might be a few too many fields... 11:01:28 <peter1138> Why not include it? 11:07:26 <Samu> i guess i should include ship depot 11:07:54 <Samu> its not a real buoy though 11:18:00 <LordAro> i'm a real boy! 11:30:01 *** tokai has joined #openttd 11:30:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 11:36:58 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 12:18:21 *** Wuzzy has joined #openttd 12:22:47 <TrueBrain> LordAro: pictures or it didn't happen 12:22:48 <TrueBrain> wait, no 12:22:49 <TrueBrain> no nooooo 12:22:51 <TrueBrain> NOOOO 12:23:52 <LordAro> ;_; 12:27:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JcCcr 12:28:24 <TrueBrain> ugh, more mobile-app spam in info@ mailbox 12:28:39 <TrueBrain> and a voicemail! But I leave that to orudge :) 12:32:30 <TrueBrain> right, 2 relative large PRs to review .. maybe I should stop producing PRs for a bit :P 12:32:49 <TrueBrain> we need people to review >:D 12:37:24 *** ad5twoknebor[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:24 *** Aileen[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:24 *** albert[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:24 *** amal[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:24 *** aperezdc__ has joined #openttd 12:37:24 *** bkilm[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:26 *** blikjeham[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:26 *** cacheerror[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:26 *** cawal[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:26 *** christoph[m]123 has joined #openttd 12:37:26 *** ciet[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:27 *** cjmonagle[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:28 *** CornsMcGowan[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:28 *** dag[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:28 *** dude[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:29 *** einar[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:31 *** elliot[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:32 *** EmeraldSnorlax[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:32 *** fiddeldibu[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:33 *** gdown has joined #openttd 12:37:34 *** freu[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:34 *** glothit7ok[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:34 *** grag[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:36 *** gretel[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:38 *** hamstonkid[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:38 *** Heiki[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:38 *** iarp[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:38 *** hylshols7qui[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:41 *** ircer[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:41 *** igor[m]123 has joined #openttd 12:37:41 *** ist5shreawf[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:41 *** jact[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:41 *** jeeg[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:43 *** jeremy[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:46 *** joey[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:46 *** johanna[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:46 *** josef[m]1 has joined #openttd 12:37:46 *** karl[m]12345 has joined #openttd 12:37:46 *** karoline[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:47 *** labs[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:47 *** khavik[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:47 *** leward[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:48 *** linda[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:48 *** magdalena[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:48 *** menelaos[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:48 *** nartir[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:48 *** natalie[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:48 *** natmac[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:49 *** nolep[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:49 *** NekomimiGunner18[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:49 *** ookfof[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:49 *** olmvnec[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:50 *** osvaldo[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:50 *** patricia[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:50 *** patrick[m]1 has joined #openttd 12:37:50 *** paulus[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:50 *** phil[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:51 *** philip[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:51 *** pothyurf[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:51 *** robert[m]1234 has joined #openttd 12:37:52 *** rudolfs[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:53 *** shedidthedog[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:53 *** tonyfinn has joined #openttd 12:37:53 *** twom[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:53 *** udo[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:53 *** JamesRoss[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:53 *** Venemo has joined #openttd 12:37:54 *** vista_narvas[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:54 *** yoltid[m] has joined #openttd 12:37:54 *** yur3shmukcik[m] has joined #openttd 12:42:42 <TrueBrain> peter1138: they are back ... 12:43:49 *** ad5twoknebor[m] has quit IRC 12:44:55 <TrueBrain> 3 hour downtime on the bridge :P 12:49:31 *** bkilm[m] has quit IRC 12:51:28 *** Supersonic[m] has quit IRC 13:00:18 *** JamesRoss[m] has quit IRC 13:01:06 *** tonyfinn has quit IRC 13:14:13 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:18:48 <peter1138> TrueBrain, rare. 13:26:08 <TrueBrain> I rather have it well done ;) 13:47:13 <Samu> got buoys working now! so happy 13:47:31 <Samu> the trick was indeed to add the ship depot in buoy array 13:48:50 <Samu> now my next issue is... how to send ships to depot 13:49:18 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:49:39 <Samu> because openttd's own 'send to depot' sucks 13:49:48 <Samu> i have to babysit the ship 13:53:16 <Samu> so i have a ship happily doing its business, following orders, following buoys, and suddenly I decide i have to sell the ship, just like that, at any moment of its schedule 13:53:46 <Samu> i can't use SendVehicleToDepot 13:54:49 <Samu> i have to unshare orders 13:55:04 <Samu> i have to delete conditional orders 13:55:21 <Samu> i have to delete go to dock orders probably 13:55:38 <Samu> all that remains are buoy orders and service at depot 13:56:24 <Samu> turn the service to depot as go to depot and stop there 14:34:49 <Samu> unsharing orders doesn't retain the order list 14:34:55 <Samu> :( 14:37:55 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 14:37:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 14:37:55 <LordAro> that feels like a bug 14:39:20 <Samu> orders are retained for players 14:39:32 <Samu> not for ais, but just in case im wrong, let me test this 14:40:56 <Samu> https://docs.openttd.org/ai-api/classAIOrder.html#a2b2c000cd8c8ce03e546c0c0bbce7fd3 14:41:36 <Samu> I wish there was an option to retain or not retain orders 14:44:31 *** tokai has quit IRC 14:53:21 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 15:12:38 <Samu> wow, seems easy to implement, at first glance 15:16:22 <Samu> or maybe not even needed 15:16:27 <Samu> i use Copy Orders 15:16:44 <Samu> which will "unshare" 15:17:01 <Samu> but retain a copy of the orders 15:23:56 <Samu> uh, how do i "Get another vehicle that share orders with this vehicle." via current AI API 15:32:30 <nielsm> https://docs.openttd.org/ai-api/classAIVehicleList__SharedOrders.html 15:40:53 <LordAro> if nothing else, sounds like documentation could be improved 15:53:07 *** glx has joined #openttd 15:53:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 15:59:25 <Samu> nice 16:06:10 <glx> if you want to unshare but keep orders, I think you can ResolveOrderPosition(), get a vehicle sharing orders, UnshareOrders(), CopyOrders() from the other vehicle, and finally SkipToOrder() 16:11:33 <Samu> im testing whether copy orders overwrite share orders 16:12:09 <Samu> the same way it does in gui 16:19:38 <glx> copy should do the same as unsharing in gui 16:21:13 <glx> the same command is used in OrdersWindow::OrderClick_StopSharing() and ScriptOrder::CopyOrders() 16:29:55 <Samu> it works! 16:30:00 <Samu> just tested 16:30:04 <Samu> awesome stuff 16:35:18 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 16:41:10 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 16:57:46 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:59:05 <Samu> i should consider buoy re-use 16:59:31 <Samu> multiple routes sharing some of the buoys 16:59:58 <Samu> but then i won't be able to close routes and delete their buoys 17:02:12 <Samu> new big test! 2048x2048 map, 5000 ships hopefully 17:02:22 <Samu> i expect no lost ship 17:03:28 <glx> for each buoy you can keep a list of routes 17:04:31 <glx> or, if you can search in all routes if the buoy is used when closing a route 17:04:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 merged pull request #9378: Codechange: convert news C-strings to std::string https://git.io/JnCpH 17:12:52 <Samu> but if there's multiple AIs running, i can't know 17:17:28 *** Flygon has quit IRC 17:35:48 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 17:38:05 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 17:38:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcWco 17:51:11 <glx> <Samu> but if there's multiple AIs running, i can't know <-- on buoy deletion, there's a check for usage by other companies, disallowing deletion 17:56:14 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcW8u 17:57:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcW8P 18:00:09 <glx> so with AIVehicleList_Station() you can easily check if you still use the buoy, then try to delete it to find if others are using it 18:10:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcWRG 18:11:06 <TrueBrain> nielsm: it would be fun if people would try that :D 18:11:22 <TrueBrain> think the main question is: can we write comments in those ini-files .. 18:11:37 <nielsm> it's as useful as trying trying to hack 127.0.0.1 18:12:08 <TrueBrain> seems it can write a comment at the end of the file .. not super useful for this use case :D 18:12:22 <nielsm> it's really more about being ahead of people who will write confused messages about "are you sure this file should be here? it contains your secret data" 18:12:38 <nielsm> i.e. support burden 18:12:48 <TrueBrain> I do not think anyone is going to be confused to think it would be OUR secrets .. as a look in the file makes that clear 18:12:55 <TrueBrain> but I do think you have a very good point that what that file is 18:12:56 <TrueBrain> is a good idea 18:13:01 <TrueBrain> just to hint people not sharing it with others 18:13:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JcWRx 18:14:02 <TrueBrain> +adding, in one of those sentences :P 18:15:42 <nielsm> "This file contains the encryption keys that make sure other players can't pretend to be you. Do not share this file with others, not even if they claim to be technical support." 18:16:13 <TrueBrain> meh, our ini loader is really ... ugh 18:16:27 *** yeoldetoast has quit IRC 18:16:45 <nielsm> I wonder if that can be phrased with simpler grammar to make sure people who aren't as proficient in english can read it too (and have better chance of it passing through machine translation) 18:16:58 <TrueBrain> lets first see IF we can write it to the file 18:17:16 <TrueBrain> the IniFile supports "comments" 18:17:21 <TrueBrain> but this is basically "everything before the first group" 18:17:27 <TrueBrain> and a "what ever was after the last entry" 18:17:31 <TrueBrain> including \ns 18:19:13 <TrueBrain> in other words: the current code doesn't allow this in a clean way, I think 18:19:44 <LordAro> fwrite(fd, "This file..."); 18:19:45 <LordAro> :p 18:20:04 <LordAro> oh, you wanted clean 18:20:06 <LordAro> nvm 18:20:07 <LordAro> :p 18:20:15 <TrueBrain> well, what is funny with your solution 18:20:21 <TrueBrain> that every time you save the config 18:20:23 <TrueBrain> it adds that line 18:20:28 <TrueBrain> so you end up with repeating that A LOT OF TIME :P 18:20:39 <LordAro> just to make it *really* clear 18:20:58 <nielsm> my suggestion would be to only write it when the file doesn't exist yet before opening it 18:21:15 <TrueBrain> nielsm: there is no such thing :) 18:21:20 <nielsm> so the user could also delete it and not have it re-appear 18:21:25 <LordAro> that'd be quite a hack 18:21:36 <LordAro> and possibly undesirable 18:21:39 <TrueBrain> ps: incoming spam 18:21:44 <LordAro> \o/ 18:21:59 <Rubidium> then don't use powershell ;) 18:22:06 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot opened pull request #94: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWEM 18:22:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot commented on pull request #93: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWE9 18:22:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] pyup-bot closed pull request #93: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGuHK 18:22:25 <TrueBrain> this will happen .. 8 more times :P 18:22:26 <TrueBrain> just saying 18:22:52 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot opened pull request #27: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWuU 18:22:55 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot commented on pull request #26: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWuT 18:22:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] pyup-bot closed pull request #26: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGuHx 18:23:26 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot opened pull request #59: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWu4 18:23:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot commented on pull request #58: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWuR 18:23:34 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] pyup-bot closed pull request #58: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGuQl 18:24:25 <LordAro> and they're all broken \o/ 18:24:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot opened pull request #51: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWu1 18:24:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot commented on pull request #50: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWuD 18:24:36 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] pyup-bot closed pull request #50: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGuQH 18:25:21 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot opened pull request #56: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWzf 18:25:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot commented on pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWzT 18:25:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] pyup-bot closed pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGu7q 18:26:40 <TrueBrain> and then it goes silent for a bit ... just so sneak back in a few later :P 18:27:54 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 18:28:45 <TrueBrain> I cannot believe the field is called "comment" 18:28:51 <TrueBrain> but it is just "what-ever-is-the-junk-between-groups" 18:29:11 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 18:29:16 <TrueBrain> frosch123: \o/ 18:29:19 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] pyup-bot opened pull request #46: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWz5 18:29:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] pyup-bot commented on pull request #45: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWzd 18:29:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] pyup-bot closed pull request #45: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGudU 18:29:39 <frosch123> ah, right in time for the spam :p 18:30:16 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 18:30:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot opened pull request #32: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWg3 18:30:32 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot commented on pull request #31: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWgn 18:30:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] pyup-bot closed pull request #31: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGudu 18:30:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JGLne 18:30:39 <TrueBrain> nielsm: I managed to cook something up .. it is not the prettiest, but also not really ugly 18:31:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot opened pull request #26: Scheduled monthly dependency update for July https://git.io/JcWgi 18:31:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot commented on pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JcWgP 18:31:33 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] pyup-bot closed pull request #25: Scheduled monthly dependency update for June https://git.io/JGudA 18:31:45 <TrueBrain> how are you frosch123 ? We missed you :D 18:31:59 <frosch123> yeah, i took a ottd vacation :) 18:33:18 <frosch123> i'll be gone again over the weekend, but if i survive the vax on monday, i will be here more next week 18:34:03 <Xaroth> wb frosch123 18:34:47 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcW2y 18:34:55 <frosch123> info@ spam became even weirder. now they are advertising their tools for balancing games... how rude, as if there is anything out of balance 18:35:31 <TrueBrain> frosch123: haha, well, I have a shot in my left arm and my right arm .. and I am still weird, so I am sure you will be fine too :P 18:38:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 commented on pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JcWaV 18:38:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JGLne 18:42:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9298: Change: move sensitive information to secrets.cfg and private information to private.cfg https://git.io/JGLne 18:50:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JcWw1 18:54:44 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I am still surprised how much "offers" we get at info@ .. especially stuff like translator help .. paid, ofc 18:56:14 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 18:56:33 <TrueBrain> that scared him ... can't blame him :D 18:56:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain updated pull request #9017: Feature: play easier together with friends from behind home routers https://git.io/JOk7C 18:57:07 <TrueBrain> nielsm: btw, I made the text in #9298 more to the point by basically flipping your statement .. start with "DOT NOT SHARE" and explain why after :) 18:57:47 <TrueBrain> (for those who are lazy :P : "; Do not share this file with others, not even if they claim to be technical support.\n; This file contains saved passwords and other secrets that should remain private to you!") 18:58:46 <TrueBrain> funny how 9298 was suppose to be a simple PR .. it grew :D 18:59:32 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 19:02:56 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 19:05:33 <TrueBrain> -limnoria==2021.06.15 19:05:33 <TrueBrain> +limnoria==2021.6.15 19:05:39 <TrueBrain> ffs limnoria, make up your mind how you call your package 19:05:41 <TrueBrain> this is annoying 19:05:45 <LordAro> lol 19:06:12 <TrueBrain> and why is requests still not updated for idna 3 .. 19:06:15 <TrueBrain> this is getting old and boring 19:07:57 <TrueBrain> "Thanks for the PR. I think this looks fine but there's some mild concern about users on Python 2" 19:08:00 <TrueBrain> .... why?! 19:08:07 <TrueBrain> how is Python 2 still a concern? 19:09:41 <LordAro> there are still a lot of people still on py2 19:09:51 <LordAro> but i'm not sure why that should affect new versions 19:10:26 <TrueBrain> they are afraid they find an issue with requests, and cannot fix it for py2 users 19:10:33 <TrueBrain> but .. you cannot support people using EOL stuff for ever and ever 19:10:37 <TrueBrain> it is just not practical in any sense 19:10:48 <LordAro> maybe you should tell them that 19:10:52 <TrueBrain> many people did :P 19:11:22 <TrueBrain> but they now scheduled it for "next release" 19:11:37 <TrueBrain> with no ETA, ofc :D 19:12:26 <TrueBrain> it btw is a more generic issue .. the longer we have Open Source software, the more you see this poping up .. people still using really old versions "because it works", often companies no longer investing money in their software 19:12:51 <TrueBrain> just look at how many software still need to run in DOS :P 19:13:02 <TrueBrain> I wonder what this does in 10 years :D 19:15:02 <glx> I can understand why py2 was still used in the begining of py3, but everybody should have switch to py3 by now, it's out for more than 10 years 19:16:13 <glx> I know there's some issues when moving from 2 to 3, but it's doable 19:16:36 <LordAro> depends how big your codebase is :p 19:17:28 <TrueBrain> and if your company wants to invest money in the conversion 19:17:42 <TrueBrain> I really cannot blame people for staying on py2 19:17:50 <glx> at some point they will need to do it anyway 19:17:52 <TrueBrain> but I cannot imagine the stress libraries have for still wanting to support it 19:18:13 <TrueBrain> your increase your maintenance burden by so much 19:18:22 <LordAro> one place in particular i know about does a *lot* of bytes/strings stuff (URL/HTTP-based), and doesn't have any spare devs 19:18:35 <TrueBrain> no company has spare devs :P 19:18:41 <TrueBrain> :D :D 19:18:50 <LordAro> apparently the last pip release that supported py2 changed something fairly fundamental about the dependency resolver which broke several things 19:19:19 <TrueBrain> with py2, many people use a fairly old pip, yes :) 19:19:57 <TrueBrain> lol, the requests project has this in their CONTRIBUTING file: https://kenreitz.org/essays/2013/01/27/be-cordial-or-be-on-your-way :) 19:20:04 <TrueBrain> article from 2013 :P 19:22:28 <TrueBrain> "Do your best to sleep, daily." 19:22:29 <TrueBrain> lol 19:23:33 <TrueBrain> glx: btw, you might think they need to do it, but again .. there is still software that requires DOS to run 19:23:37 <TrueBrain> and it is still receiving patches 19:24:11 <TrueBrain> hell, lot of x-ray machines run WinXP, and are still receiving security-fixes (MS can be nice in certain cases) 19:24:55 <TrueBrain> ATMs still run WinCE 19:25:04 <TrueBrain> the world is full of "they should not be doing that anymore" :P 19:26:29 <glx> well python2 is no longer supported by python https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/ 19:26:38 <TrueBrain> neither is DOS :) 19:26:56 <TrueBrain> I really understand companies staying at Python2 :) 19:27:19 <glx> yes but DOS is an OS 19:27:34 <TrueBrain> I just think it is not wise of libraries to not upgrade using that as argument :P But requests has adjusted their reasoning, so we just have to wait now ....... I am impatient ...... :D 19:27:41 <TrueBrain> glx: is there really a difference? :) 19:28:02 <TrueBrain> DOS is run in DOSBox for software still using it, to make the similarities more clear :D 19:29:05 <TrueBrain> https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/1/22558292/police-officer-video-taylor-swift-youtube-copyright <- wtf?! righhhttttt 19:37:53 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 19:38:35 <andythenorth> yo 19:42:49 <TrueBrain> you missed him, sorry :( 19:57:18 <andythenorth> :P 19:57:39 <TrueBrain> https://www.nexusmods.com/news/14538 <- they will be doing what we have been doing for 14 years .. interesting to see how people react to it :) 20:01:54 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 20:04:45 <andythenorth> anybody dare review this highly controversial PR? https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/pull/223 20:06:19 <TrueBrain> "It appears to me that NexusMods is intending to ignore the Rights of mod Authors in order to maintain the integrity of pre-defined Collections. I believe this is "wrong", and even "unethical"." 20:06:41 <TrueBrain> (the right to delete their content at will, he is talking about) 20:07:17 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro approved pull request #223: Add: town var 0x41 'town_index' https://git.io/JcWS9 20:07:18 <andythenorth> ethics eh?? 20:07:54 <TrueBrain> I think there is money involved in their platform :P It might bias things a bit :D 20:09:17 * andythenorth reading http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html 20:09:25 <TrueBrain> wtf is that 20:09:29 <TrueBrain> can't even read the text 20:09:30 <TrueBrain> the colours 20:09:31 <TrueBrain> it hurts 20:09:32 <TrueBrain> TAKE IT AWAY 20:09:34 <TrueBrain> close the tab 20:09:40 <TrueBrain> my mouse doesn't want to get close to the close button 20:09:41 <TrueBrain> omg 20:09:46 <TrueBrain> sorry :P 20:09:56 <TrueBrain> who-ever wrote that site, please change the colours 20:10:25 <andythenorth> I will read it for you 20:10:30 <andythenorth> I am an expert in reading 20:13:02 <andythenorth> have done that 20:13:07 <andythenorth> it was a web page 20:14:27 <NGC3982> andythereader 20:14:38 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: insightful, tnx 20:14:52 <andythenorth> something something mods 20:14:57 <andythenorth> "open is better" 20:15:06 <andythenorth> "no takebacks" is better 20:15:11 <andythenorth> but licensing is hard 20:15:20 <andythenorth> such summarising 20:15:44 <andythenorth> LordAro THANKS :D 20:15:57 <TrueBrain> reading the nexusmods, it seems we did well to make our ToS what it is from the start 20:16:02 <TrueBrain> what a drama that is .. lol 20:16:14 <andythenorth> modder drama 20:16:16 <andythenorth> lol 20:16:27 <andythenorth> hmm I think I self-removed my merge rights on nml 20:16:30 *** gelignite has quit IRC 20:16:50 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] TrueBrain merged pull request #223: Add: town var 0x41 'town_index' https://git.io/JnFYN 20:16:51 <andythenorth> \o/ 20:16:56 <TrueBrain> clearly I do have rights 20:16:58 <TrueBrain> didn't know 20:17:47 <TrueBrain> I am trying to understand why mod authors want to be able to remove their content from nexusmods .. but I cannot find their reasoning. I am sure it is implied, but I am not part of that community, so I don't know it :D 20:18:05 <andythenorth> it's the whole loss of control thing 20:18:27 <TrueBrain> ah, so it is about the emotion? 20:18:39 <andythenorth> I think so 20:18:39 <TrueBrain> (not judging btw, I am curious) 20:18:51 <andythenorth> I read some stuff about loss aversion 20:18:54 <TrueBrain> guess that is one thing Open Source takes away from you :P 20:18:57 <andythenorth> it's quite a big thing for peoples 20:19:04 <TrueBrain> once you push .. it is out there for ever .. deal with it :P 20:19:14 <andythenorth> BUT IT'S MY LIFE'S WORK 20:19:14 <andythenorth> etc 20:19:15 <andythenorth> etc 20:19:21 <andythenorth> I MIGHT BE JUDGED 20:19:25 <TrueBrain> can you imagine someone comes and wants to remove his line of code from a repo 20:19:28 <andythenorth> PEOPLE MIGHT PIRATE IT 20:19:33 <andythenorth> SOMEONE MIGHT MAKE MONEY 20:19:40 <TrueBrain> the money argument comes by a lot 20:19:42 <andythenorth> number of fucks I give 20:19:44 <andythenorth> 0 20:19:56 <TrueBrain> but I read the same argument on minecraft modpacks 20:20:02 <andythenorth> I do get triggered if someone GPL violates who should know better though 20:20:08 <andythenorth> like...play fair 20:20:11 <TrueBrain> basically .. without modpacks, mods were .. rarely downloaded .. and it was hard to put 2 mods together 20:20:19 <TrueBrain> with modpacks, mod authors complain THEY DONT MAKE MONEY ANYMORE 20:20:24 <andythenorth> we have modpacks yet? 20:20:24 <TrueBrain> they also didn't before modpacks 20:20:26 *** Strom has quit IRC 20:20:29 <andythenorth> I MAKE NO MONEY ON GRFs 20:20:31 <andythenorth> outrage 20:20:41 <TrueBrain> well, I would like to add modpacks (read: presets :P ) 20:20:49 <TrueBrain> so I am somewhat curious how other communities deal with it 20:21:06 <andythenorth> probably with drama? 20:21:09 <TrueBrain> from what I understand, CurseForge solved the money argument by giving every download a share of the profit 20:21:18 <TrueBrain> and modpacks do not embed mods anymore, but force a download via CurseForge 20:21:33 <TrueBrain> but so far, in both these cases, money seems to be the central pillar 20:21:36 <TrueBrain> which we don't have :P 20:22:02 *** Strom has joined #openttd 20:22:04 <TrueBrain> and presets will be the same, they trigger a download from BaNaNaS .. they cannot embed content 20:22:22 <andythenorth> TrueTTD 20:22:27 <andythenorth> andythenorth modpack 20:22:31 <andythenorth> we will be RICH 20:22:58 <andythenorth> salaries for player support staff m 20:23:38 <TrueBrain> some arguments are funny .. "we have the right to decide how our content is distributed" .. "with this change, you force us to participate" 20:23:43 <TrueBrain> no, you can still opt NOT to use their platform 20:23:48 <TrueBrain> you still have all your rights 20:24:05 <TrueBrain> like some NewGRFs author opt not to use BaNaNaS .. their freedom after all 20:24:40 <andythenorth> people gonna people 20:24:50 <glx> and they can still distribute outside of BaNaNaS if they want 20:24:55 <andythenorth> ok now I must documentation nml :) 20:24:55 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 20:25:02 <TrueBrain> they can even clone BaNaNaS if they like .. the source code is there :) 20:25:03 <andythenorth> oof wiki markup 20:25:33 <andythenorth> oh 20:25:41 <andythenorth> how do we document nml that hasn't been released yet? 20:25:44 <andythenorth> lol 20:25:49 <andythenorth> the nml docs :) 20:25:54 <TrueBrain> shall I click the release button? :P 20:26:00 <TrueBrain> pretty sure some people will get really mad at me if I do that :P 20:26:18 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 20:26:20 <glx> andythenorth: just use 0.6+ in the doc :) 20:27:02 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/479508978699599872/860214376077328424/Nexus.jpg <- for some reason that made me giggle 20:27:52 *** Progman has quit IRC 20:28:18 <andythenorth> done 20:28:23 <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Towns 20:28:31 <TrueBrain> we are proud you managed to do that 20:28:35 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on pull request #223: Add: town var 0x41 'town_index' https://git.io/JcWH5 20:28:48 <andythenorth> it's an achievement 20:28:53 <TrueBrain> I saw the popup 20:28:54 <andythenorth> where's the docs tracker? 20:29:19 <glx> or {{nml|0.6}} (like there's already for 0.3 and 0.5) 20:29:39 <andythenorth> seems I don't need to update this https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Development/NewGRF/Specification%20Status 20:30:03 <andythenorth> glx yes I did the {{nml|0.6}} version :) 20:30:25 <glx> you still need to document procedures ;) 20:30:34 <andythenorth> I do 20:30:55 <andythenorth> only one year late https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/issues/105 20:31:09 <andythenorth> I don't really know how to explain them 20:31:18 <andythenorth> I tried a couple of times explaining them to other grf authors in discord 20:31:21 <glx> because I think it's better if it's written by someone who used it 20:31:49 <andythenorth> it's really hard to explain them 20:31:55 <andythenorth> but really easy to use them :P 20:32:29 <andythenorth> excuses eh 20:33:01 <andythenorth> let's write something bad, then you can criticise it 20:33:18 <glx> I don't see how it can be hard to say it allows to write things like (x + procedure() * 3) 20:34:17 <andythenorth> it's the concept 20:34:28 <andythenorth> an nml author is going to have no idea what a procedure is 20:34:41 * andythenorth looks what newgrf says 20:35:20 <andythenorth> "When the variable in a VarAction2 is 7E, the procedure given by the 60+x parameter is invoked. This means that the byte following the variable number (7E) specifies a variational or random action 2 ID to call, similarly to how a regular VarAction2 branches to other action 2 entries. However, instead of branching, it is a subroutine call, with the value calculated by the called entry being used as variable 20:35:20 <andythenorth> value." 20:35:41 <andythenorth> ok so I just translate that to nml, job is a good un 20:36:19 <andythenorth> TrueBrain want to help? :) 20:36:22 <glx> oh IIRC there's something about scope too 20:38:00 <glx> ah no it's about feature, but I don't think nml handles that correctly 20:38:01 <andythenorth> procedures are the best addition to nml...probably since it was released 20:38:16 <andythenorth> do I bother trying to explain how to use them? 20:38:20 <andythenorth> or just document the interface? 20:38:37 <andythenorth> they remove so much duplicate code 20:39:22 <glx> any switch can be used as procedure, then parameters were added for mor power 20:40:44 <andythenorth> reduced code duplication 20:40:46 <andythenorth> faster compiles 20:40:50 <andythenorth> 'custom variables' 20:40:52 <glx> I think there's only one possible issue with procedures, they can easily eat a lot of action 2 ID :) 20:41:29 <TrueBrain> You want me to help write docs for something I don't know anything about andythenorth? Sounds like a terrible idea :p 20:41:45 <andythenorth> TrueBrain but I pasted the nfo docs above :P 20:41:51 <andythenorth> all we have to do is use those 20:42:18 <andythenorth> glx I didn't run out of action 2 IDs....yet :) 20:42:23 <andythenorth> despite the loop unroll thing 20:42:44 <glx> depends of the number of procedure and the last usage 20:43:11 <glx> if you declare a lot in begining but use them only at the end 20:43:29 <andythenorth> I am sure I will find a case that breaks it 20:43:30 <glx> but it's indeed the same with other switches 20:43:36 <andythenorth> I broke the action 2 ID limit a few times already 20:44:36 <glx> I think optimisations help in the case of normal switches (though then often already were reusing same IDs) 20:44:52 *** Progman has joined #openttd 20:45:14 <andythenorth> maybe I should try and break it 20:45:18 <andythenorth> nah :) 20:45:34 <glx> but for example, if a switch jumps to 4 others returning constant, you save 3 IDs 20:47:49 <glx> it's easy to break the action 2 ID limit if stuff is declared way before it's used 20:47:54 <andythenorth> @seen Eddi|zuHause 20:47:54 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Eddi|zuHause was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 22 hours, 15 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that code part is very contained. 20:47:59 <andythenorth> oh Eddi|zuHause is alive :) 20:48:09 <Eddi|zuHause> am i really? 20:48:44 <glx> usually some reordering fixes the issue 20:49:01 <glx> (can be a pain with generated code :) ) 20:50:56 <glx> but often a complex chain (with many scope changes) use only one ID 20:51:47 <glx> unless it switches between all available cargos ;) 20:52:06 <glx> and do something different for each one 20:54:25 <glx> anyway in this case 64 IDs are needed, but only for a short time 20:55:34 *** nielsm has quit IRC 20:57:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth commented on issue #105: Document procedures for switches and random switches https://git.io/Jftrs 20:57:54 <glx> nml is way better at using IDs for complex stuff than doing it manually in NFO :) 20:57:59 <andythenorth> it's not good :P ^^ 20:58:01 <andythenorth> but eh 20:58:44 <andythenorth> there are examples from FIRS and Horse for procedures, but I don't know if they're good 21:00:22 <glx> haha the point 3 21:02:10 <andythenorth> nobody needs to see that loop unroll 21:04:19 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 21:04:34 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 21:16:44 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 21:18:37 <Samu> No lost ships! Excelent job! but those framerates hurt :( https://i.imgur.com/dZ1iL3I.png 21:21:25 *** Samu has quit IRC 21:28:35 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:33:37 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:40:19 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 21:53:32 *** tokai has joined #openttd 21:53:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 21:54:25 *** yeoldetoast has joined #openttd 22:00:22 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 22:11:10 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:24:02 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 22:24:15 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 22:42:27 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:33:11 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 23:42:12 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:55:11 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC