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Log for #openttd on 28th September 2022:
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10:41:07  <andythenorth> principle of least access, least privilege
10:41:25  <andythenorth> hmm
11:00:19  * pickpacket always has permissions for pretty much everything
11:00:25  <pickpacket> sysadmin/devops
11:01:08  <pickpacket> my team handles all the services. Internal IT handles all the f***ing Microsoft blah
11:11:30  <petern> Oops, forgot how hot the black peperamis are... whew!
11:19:35  <petern> `Rebasing (41/82)` ๐Ÿ˜ฆ
11:19:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on pull request #10058: Feature: [UI] Allow configuring AI/Game Script and NewGRF from world gen window https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10058#issuecomment-1260758459
12:06:30  <andythenorth> do we have a preferred / winning html template language currently?
12:06:37  <andythenorth> Liquid ?
12:06:48  <andythenorth> 'we' = the world, not OpenTTD
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12:17:12  <petern> Hmm
12:29:04  <petern> When/why did we decide that pressed buttons need their content to be shifted?
12:29:20  <petern> I wonder if it was something I did...
12:39:28  <petern> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1024661622423306300/unknown.png
12:39:28  <petern> I should look for tar.gz, 7zip and lha towns.
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14:08:27  <supermop_toil> yo
14:21:52  <ag> Wow
14:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> what about tar.xz?
14:33:53  <pickpacket> A couple of days ago the game generated a map with Slutville when I played. I feel like something went a bit wrong there
14:34:26  <pickpacket> actually it probably wasnโ€™t โ€villeโ€ at the end, but it did start with Slut
14:35:09  <LordAro> there are a few banned combinations
14:42:05  <FLHerne> it's a good thing there aren't descriptions
14:42:24  <FLHerne> some of the (original) Elite ones are hilarious https://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Classic_Elite_planet_descriptions
14:42:33  <ag> That's a very inappropriate name for a town
14:42:51  <FLHerne> > Tioranin This world is most notable for Tioraninian vicious brew but ravaged by unpredictable civil war.
14:43:04  <FLHerne> ag: they're generated by semi-randomly combining syllables
14:43:18  <FLHerne> which is why they're all kind of weird
14:43:36  <ag> Makes sense
14:44:16  <ag> Better use "X Town Names"
14:44:16  <ag> X as in any language or region
14:46:06  <FLHerne> well, sometimes those are disconcerting when they're places I know of
14:46:26  <ag> True
14:46:38  <FLHerne> also because the town naming knows nothing about geography
14:46:51  <ag> Pretty obvious
14:47:08  <FLHerne> so you get Portsmouth on the top of a mountain or whatever
14:47:13  <ag> X on sea which is nowhere near sea
14:47:20  <FLHerne> yep
14:47:39  <FLHerne> perhaps there should be town-naming scripts
14:47:49  <ag> Or London being the smallest settlement on the map
14:47:58  <ag> Yes this happened once
14:48:08  <ag> FLHerne: Yes!
14:48:49  <petern> "ancient loathing of sit coms" sounds legit tbh
14:49:19  <ag> Sounds like a news article headline
14:53:22  <petern> https://www.bbcelite.com/deep_dives/extended_system_descriptions.html
14:53:28  <petern> I expect a PR.
14:55:03  <petern> # 9. Lerela This planet is a tedious little planet.
14:55:05  <petern> Perfect.
14:55:27  <petern> That's quite a few dull or tedious places.
14:56:05  <andythenorth> what was the 4th Dimension Elite clone?
14:56:21  <andythenorth> it was impossible to get past level 7 on the version I had, the planet unlock code was wrong
14:56:30  <andythenorth> I think we even wrote to ask them
14:57:09  <andythenorth> Black Angel
15:07:51  <supermop_toil> "Ususorian edible poet." i'm getting hungry
15:17:28  <petern> andythenorth: UIM
15:18:42  <petern> http://bbcmicro.co.uk/game.php?id=1385
15:26:15  <petern> 1 person streaming OpenTTD on Twitch.
15:26:40  <supermop_toil> not me
15:29:55  <petern> Playing on CityMania
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16:24:50  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.9 https://github.com/OpenTTD/bananas-server/releases/tag/1.4.9
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17:21:25  <petern> ๐Ÿ˜ฎ
17:58:52  <TrueBrain> your mouth is open, please close it, the draft is annoying ๐Ÿ˜›
18:01:37  <andythenorth> your tongue is out, you'll catch flies on it ๐Ÿค‘
18:02:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Bouke opened pull request #10060: Fix #9876: Fix MacBook Touch Bar crash / render issues on 32bpp https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10060
18:06:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Bouke updated pull request #10060: Fix #9876: MacBook Touch Bar crash / render issues w/ 32bpp graphics https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10060
18:14:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #10060: Fix #9876: MacBook Touch Bar crash / render issues w/ 32bpp graphics https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10060#pullrequestreview-1124159444
18:24:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Bouke commented on pull request #10060: Fix #9876: MacBook Touch Bar crash / render issues w/ 32bpp graphics https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10060#pullrequestreview-1124171590
18:28:13  <supermop_toil> ottd supports touch bar?
18:32:04  <andythenorth> emojibar
18:34:32  <pickpacket> I need my NewGRF to be compatible with OpenTTD 1.10.3. I add a couple of new industries and a couple of new cargoes. Do I have to add specific vehicles for these too?
18:35:18  <andythenorth> not if you have set cargo classes, and you don't want specific cargo sprites
18:35:42  <andythenorth> but you won't get base set support that way, players will need grf vehicle
18:35:57  <andythenorth> but backwards support is over-rated IMO ๐Ÿ™‚
18:36:16  <andythenorth> is this because the Android client is stuck behind due to world circumstances?
18:37:23  <Brickblock1> The Android Client is new enough but other ports might not be
18:37:28  <pickpacket> nah it's because Debian Stable has the older version. I want to be compatible with that
18:37:40  <andythenorth> oh distro things ๐Ÿ™‚
18:38:15  <andythenorth> adding your own vehicles to a cargo / industry grf was historically considered wrong, but I'm not convinced it is wrong
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18:38:32  <andythenorth> but it's quite laborious, when you could just depend on grfs
18:38:37  <pickpacket> I didn't quite understand your answer ๐Ÿค” If I set cargo classes, does it work in the older version?
18:39:01  <andythenorth> it will work with well-coded grf vehicles (most are), but not base set vehicles
18:39:14  <pickpacket> I don't mind the idea of specific vehicles, except for the amount of work involved.
18:39:19  <andythenorth> base set vehicles had no concept of classes before 12.0
18:39:24  <pickpacket> :(
18:39:44  <glx[d]> 1.10.3 will still need newgrf vehicles
18:39:51  <andythenorth> you could copy vehicles from OGFX+
18:40:01  <andythenorth> but your project rapidly grows
18:40:15  <andythenorth> you'd need a full set of train wagons, all generations of road vehicles and planes
18:40:22  <andythenorth> I think it's overkill
18:40:29  <andythenorth> why is Debian so far behind?
18:40:33  <andythenorth> is that just what Stable means?
18:40:35  <andythenorth> reliable
18:40:44  <andythenorth> how is that even compliant with infosec?
18:40:56  <andythenorth> that means no UK government supplier can use Debian Stable
18:42:24  <Brickblock1> I remember when I tried to install openttd on Ubuntu it worked but the version was super old and I did not know how to un install it.
18:42:33  <Heili_> Debian Stable does get security updates when needed, but OpenTTD updates tend to be not security related
18:42:40  <andythenorth> ah ok
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18:43:02  <andythenorth> is there no way to just run the 12.0 binary on Debian?
18:43:22  <andythenorth> there seems to be a cohort of Linux users who are captured by their distro
18:43:37  <andythenorth> who are quite different to the "yolo it's all mine, freedom" type of Linux user
18:44:28  <andythenorth> seems to be like being a mac user, without the excitingly aggressive elimination of backwards compatibility ๐Ÿ˜›
18:45:37  <Heili_> the debs from https://www.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/latest work fine, but probably some people donโ€™t want to install packages that are not official Debian
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18:54:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Arastais commented on pull request #10058: Feature: [UI] Allow configuring AI/Game Script and NewGRF from world gen window https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10058#issuecomment-1261334958
18:56:32  <supermop_toil> andythenorth: just include one MPS whatever truck that carries 40 crates of anything, available 0-50000
18:56:50  <supermop_toil> and disable if any other RVs loaded?
18:56:57  <supermop_toil> is that possible?
19:06:06  <pickpacket> andythenorth: I can probably add the repo for the testing version and install from there
19:06:46  <pickpacket> and quite frankly I'll rather do that than build a dozen vehicles ๐Ÿคช
19:17:30  <pickpacket> ugh. I'm reading the NML tutorial but quite frankly I learn better dissecting existing code
19:17:52  <pickpacket> does anyone know of a fairly small NewGRF written in NML that I can look at?
19:21:19  <pickpacket> quite frankly I've said quite frankly a lot lately
19:24:04  <andythenorth> ogfx + grfs are big but simple
19:24:11  <Brickblock1> I have this but it might not be relevant for industries and contains some garbage.
19:24:26  * andythenorth looks for repos
19:24:48  <frosch> pickpacket: for compatibility with 1.10 you probably also need an old version of nml
19:24:50  <andythenorth> oh maybe those repos are on coop
19:25:34  <pickpacket> frosch: that's not a deal breaker, but having to make a huge set of vehicles is :P
19:25:36  <frosch> i guess the one packaged by your distro will work
19:25:55  <pickpacket> -
19:26:04  <frosch> why? there are plenty of other vehicle sets
19:26:04  <andythenorth> I don't have any simple grfs to offer ๐Ÿ˜
19:26:04  <pickpacket> NML is distro independent
19:26:09  <pickpacket> it's in pip
19:26:33  <frosch> "apt-get install nml" exists nevertheless
19:26:40  <frosch> it's 0.5.3 in debian stable
19:27:07  <pickpacket> frosch: I was told that if I create new cargoes for 1.10.3 I'd need to create new vehicles as well because cargo classes weren't a thing
19:27:19  <Brickblock1> https://github.com/Brickblock1/Flowers.grf
19:28:16  <Brickblock1> Cargo classes existed but were not used by the base game only new grfs
19:28:46  <andythenorth> pickpacket: that might be lost in translation ๐Ÿ˜‰
19:29:10  <andythenorth> if you are happy to load other vehicle newgrfs (not yours) then you don't need to make vehicles
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19:29:40  <andythenorth> if you only want to use the vanilla vehicles provided by the OpenTTD client, then you need 12.0, or you write your own vehicles
19:29:46  * andythenorth clarifications :)
19:31:04  <pickpacket> oh! Can I expect *all* NewGRFs to support cargo classes?
19:32:40  <Brickblock1> Not all but 99  %
19:33:44  <andythenorth> all recent, well-coded newgrfs
19:33:48  <andythenorth> sorry for confusion
19:33:56  <andythenorth> both English, and the world of OpenTTD
19:34:00  <andythenorth> contain confusion
19:34:14  <andythenorth> 'recent' is last 10 years or more
19:35:45  <Brickblock1> The only grf that I know of that doesn't is Swedish trains but I have made a separate grf to fix it.
19:50:49  <pickpacket> cool
19:50:58  <pickpacket> Definitely going for cargo classes
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19:54:39  <FLHerne> there are a handful of grfs that do support cargo classes, but fail to provide vehicles (or a usable vehicle progression) for every combination
19:55:22  <FLHerne> Bob's British Road Vehicles was one, but the latest version is improved
19:56:22  <andythenorth> hmm
19:56:28  <FLHerne> but FIRS has set the bar pretty high for cargo support in all recent grfs
19:56:34  <andythenorth> should Steeltown import alcohol for towns?
19:56:40  <andythenorth> or should it be clean living?
19:59:12  <supermop_toil> beer street and gin lane?
20:00:03  <andythenorth> yup
20:00:19  <andythenorth> I have reworked quite a lot of the end game
20:00:29  <andythenorth> but dunno if it improved it yet ๐Ÿ˜›
20:00:37  <supermop_toil> keep steel mill production above x per month or towns stop accepting alcohol and start accepting opioids
20:00:40  <andythenorth> I'm designing for a non-existent gamescript
20:00:50  <andythenorth> I have all kinds of weird silly ideas
20:01:04  <andythenorth> like ports that progressively unlock cargos
20:01:23  <andythenorth> supplying them causes cargos to start being produced
20:01:46  <andythenorth> simple is better though
20:02:33  <andythenorth> feel like welding gas could go to an additional destination https://grf.farm/firs/steeltown-end-game-3/html/economies.html#steeltown
20:03:25  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Bouke opened pull request #10061: Change: typo in code comment https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10061
20:03:50  <andythenorth> also considering a marine fab yard, that accepts pipe and other steel, and produces scrap metal
20:03:52  <andythenorth> but eh
20:03:58  <andythenorth> not convinced
20:08:13  <andythenorth> I could get probably do an Industrial Machines end cargo, that would look nice
20:08:31  <andythenorth> but I can't see how to do it without doubling inputs
20:09:05  <andythenorth> Steeltown has a natural rule that keeps re-asserting itself
20:09:22  <andythenorth> if a cargo goes in to e.g. step 2 in the chain, it isn't also an input in step 3
20:09:30  <andythenorth> except for limestone
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20:12:50  <pickpacket> andythenorth: have them accept alcohol, but not during the prohibition era :D
20:14:43  <pickpacket> do I need to define all of the properties here https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Industries ? Like random_sound_effects and spec_flags
20:37:57  <andythenorth> nope
20:38:34  <andythenorth> some will take sensible defaults, usually '0' ๐Ÿ˜›
20:38:35  <pickpacket> Nice
20:39:35  <andythenorth> I don't want to spread confusion, so you might just want to ignore this....but sometimes the actual nfo spec is clearer than nml docs https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries
20:39:44  <andythenorth> depends how much you want to read about bytes ๐Ÿ˜›
20:40:19  <andythenorth> it's probably not wise at first
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20:43:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #10058: Feature: [UI] Allow configuring AI/Game Script and NewGRF from world gen window https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10058#issuecomment-1261444240
20:45:23  <FLHerne> ^ most of NML is pretty much a 1:1 representation of NFO constructs but with human-readable names
20:45:50  <FLHerne> the bits that aren't usually seem to be a bad idea :p
20:46:47  <glx[d]> for stations, nml hides a lot of the NFO spec weirdness ๐Ÿ™‚
20:47:34  <FLHerne> ah, I haven't looked at that yet
20:48:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bafulton commented on issue #10044: [Bug]: System cursor rendered on top of game cursor on macOS https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/10044
20:48:25  <glx[d]> it's still weird to write compared to industry tiles or objects, but it's better than plain NFO
20:49:43  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 approved pull request #10061: Change: typo in code comment https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10061#pullrequestreview-1124340357
20:51:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #10061: Change: typo in code comment https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10061#issuecomment-1261450821
20:53:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #10061: Change: typo in code comment https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10061#issuecomment-1261452871
20:56:12  <petern> Is "fullscreen" actually wrong?
20:56:58  <glx[d]> "fullsreen" is
20:57:10  <petern> When describing a mode or setting, "fullscreen" or "full-screen" should be used as it's an adjective. As a noun, or when describing anything occupying the entire display or screen, "full screen" should be used.
20:57:27  <Bouke> the space was added as this is referring to the mode macOS calls "Full Screen"
20:58:31  <petern> OS X being wrong as always!
20:59:28  <glx[d]> hey at least we have someone willing to touch macOS code ๐Ÿ™‚
20:59:48  <andythenorth> ahem someone who isn't michi ๐Ÿ™‚
20:59:54  <andythenorth> who has to do it without a mac
21:00:05  <andythenorth> I am only here because michi kept the mac port alive ๐Ÿ˜›
21:00:19  <andythenorth> although I did try the Wine thing
21:00:44  <Bouke> hear hear... without a Mac binary I wouldn't be here ๐Ÿ˜‰
21:02:06  <Bouke> are there any stats on the usage of the various binaries/platforms for ottd?
21:02:09  <petern> Anyway, if they call it "Full Screen", perhaps it needs the caps.
21:03:12  <petern> I wonder what I can get sidetracked on tonight
21:04:11  <andythenorth> company colour GUI
21:04:13  <andythenorth> obvs
21:04:22  <andythenorth> 'why is it weird dropdowns'
21:04:47  <glx[d]> you want a color picker ?
21:05:20  <andythenorth> I want it to be less weird ๐Ÿ™‚
21:05:31  <andythenorth> goes it throw out? ๐Ÿ˜›
21:05:47  <glx[d]> I guess it's because the limited number of company colour in the palette
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21:06:41  <andythenorth> specifically the vehicles GUI
21:06:47  <andythenorth> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1024789294461751337/unknown.png
21:06:47  <andythenorth> which is like nothing else I ever saw
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21:06:57  <andythenorth> select a line, then go to the table header, and choose the colour ๐Ÿ˜›
21:07:00  <andythenorth> so weird
21:07:20  <andythenorth> I am sure there are reasons ๐Ÿ™‚
21:08:49  <petern> Yea, I copied it from ttdpatch
21:09:16  <petern> Lots of dropdowns would also suck
21:10:04  <petern> Hmm, ok. Click on the label and popup a colour selector, maybe
21:13:21  <andythenorth> something like that
21:13:28  <andythenorth> tonight's distraction Richard
21:13:33  <andythenorth> or was it Matthew?
21:13:42  <andythenorth> can't remember, it was TV
21:14:11  <andythenorth> how about a global painting tool? ๐Ÿ˜›
21:14:15  <andythenorth> it would be silly
21:14:36  <andythenorth> select it, anything 'paintable' becomes a highlighted click target
21:14:58  <andythenorth> UI elements, newgrf sprites...etc
21:15:13  <andythenorth> minimap colour
21:15:16  <andythenorth> chart backgrounds
21:15:22  <andythenorth> company colours
21:15:51  <andythenorth> I'll get my coat
21:21:14  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #10062: Fix 5e413c9d: Last sprite offset in GRF file was not recorded https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10062
21:23:35  <petern> That's quite weird ๐Ÿ˜„
21:29:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #10060: Fix #9876: MacBook Touch Bar crash / render issues w/ 32bpp graphics https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10060#pullrequestreview-1124380384
21:46:10  <andythenorth> such sleep ๐Ÿ˜›
21:46:22  <petern> Not true.
21:46:34  <andythenorth> no
21:46:43  <andythenorth> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1024799342298669076/unknown.png
21:46:55  <andythenorth> 6 cargos left before the prize
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21:47:03  <andythenorth> 64 or bust
21:47:15  <petern> Go for 65.
21:47:50  <andythenorth> good point
21:47:55  <andythenorth> shard to a new newgrf
21:48:14  <andythenorth> oh limit is 64 total
21:48:16  <andythenorth> not per grf ๐Ÿ˜›
21:49:09  <petern> uint32 cargo
21:50:02  <andythenorth> 65k per grf?
21:50:21  <andythenorth> how many kinds of bolt are there in the world?
21:50:28  <andythenorth> metric, imperial
21:50:33  <andythenorth> different thread pitch
21:50:35  <andythenorth> diameter
21:50:37  <andythenorth> material
21:50:47  <andythenorth> hex, penta, square head
21:51:53  <andythenorth> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1024800642046377994/unknown.png
21:52:06  <andythenorth> authors will love drawing those ๐Ÿ˜›
21:53:18  <petern> Sounds like work data... so you want a 12S cauliflower, 8S cauliflower, or a 6S cauliflower?
21:53:46  <andythenorth> bakers dozen
21:54:09  <andythenorth> are SKUs SKUs, or are they a container containing other SKUs?
21:54:19  <andythenorth> and how do we know if we can fulfil the order?
21:54:41  <andythenorth> and do I order 12x SKU A, or 1x SKU B, which is a box of 12x SKU A
21:54:52  <andythenorth> such day job
21:55:03  <andythenorth> hmm
21:55:11  <andythenorth> nobody did an SKU grf
21:55:32  <andythenorth> warehouse:
21:58:34  <reldred> *snorts*
22:01:27  <andythenorth> no really bedtime
22:01:44  <andythenorth> forklift truck factory maybe?
22:01:46  <andythenorth> hmm
22:01:49  <andythenorth> propellors?
22:03:02  <andythenorth> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1024803449205956638/unknown.png
22:07:19  <petern> Thanks Explorer, just needed you to crash right now.
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22:10:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: looks like a ship part
22:10:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd file that under "machines"
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23:11:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #10062: Fix 5e413c9d: Last sprite offset in GRF file was not recorded https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10062#pullrequestreview-1124452306
23:12:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #10061: Change: typo in code comment https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull

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