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01:53:09 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 02:08:55 *** gnu_jj_ has joined #openttd 02:12:29 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 02:20:20 *** godbed has joined #openttd 02:20:29 *** Zathras has joined #openttd 02:23:49 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 02:23:49 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:13:44 *** felix has quit IRC 03:16:54 *** felix has joined #openttd 04:06:04 *** keikoz has joined #openttd 04:47:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] eints-sync[bot] pushed 1 commits to master https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/commit/26c22558977908941b7528a2cd9fca2d17071163 04:47:10 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 05:12:12 *** Flygon has quit IRC 05:28:59 *** keikoz has quit IRC 08:40:12 <kuhnovic> xarick: I see lots of code changes, some rather invasive such as the binary heap changes. It is still unclear to me how you are solving a certain problem. It's not even entirely clear what problem you are trying to solve at this point. You need to be able to explain these things. Your usual method of running a 70K ship save only provides anekdotal evidence, it doesn't prove that you have actually 08:40:12 <kuhnovic> fixed the issue. 08:41:06 <kuhnovic> Your reasoning needs to be solid, then you can use some save games to prove you've fixed the issue. Specific test cases / savegames are much more useful than 70K ship saves. Those big saves are a form of brute force testing and are more of a general "did I break anything" regression tests, and don't prove that the actual problem situations even occurred at all, let alone that they were fixed. 08:44:44 <kuhnovic> And unfortunately "I added some logic to the binary heap, added some reversal code and look my 70K ship save doesn't assert" just doesn't count as solid logic. For the record, I'm not trying to be a d!ck and complain about your work. I'm sincerely trying to help you, but you need to start listening to what people say. You have received lots of feedback and good advice, but it all seems to fall on 08:44:44 <kuhnovic> deaf ears. 08:45:59 <LordAro> ah, you've reached that point 08:49:33 <kuhnovic> I know you've given up entirely, I'm a bit more stubborn I guess 😛 08:56:15 *** Zathras is now known as debdog 09:07:10 <xarick> hey, thx for the feedback. 09:22:04 <peter1138> Might drop all my stashes and branches. 09:22:17 <LordAro> i don't think we'd ever recover from that 09:47:34 <peter1138> Well, they're not things in TTD. 10:02:21 <xarick> Tie breaker is a really no go, it seems 10:03:11 <xarick> Tie breaker - I needed this to ensure the first path matches the second path. While they have the same costs, I was worried about the automatic service not sticking with the path due to variances in track choice. 10:04:31 <xarick> but.... let's actually visually inspect the ships without the tie breaker 10:04:39 <xarick> see what happens 10:08:26 <peter1138> o/~ It's the end of the world as we know it... 10:18:02 <xarick> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1291343498666180638/image.png?ex=66ffc0da&is=66fe6f5a&hm=9150e4d97924bc705d9b36db5cabb9c452d3f2b8ddcdcd7a17f3d5437e4344f1& 10:18:02 <xarick> so this happens so far 10:18:19 <xarick> there's a "split" choice at the top 10:18:44 <xarick> same costs 10:34:20 <andythenorth> is it naptime? 10:34:59 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 11:05:05 <xarick> waiting for 1993 11:06:20 <truebrain> peter1138: and I feel fine 11:10:19 <xarick> well, i guess tie-breaker can go 11:10:52 <xarick> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1291356793502433321/image.png?ex=66ffcd3b&is=66fe7bbb&hm=031b332d269eeb230a46f8a49fdaf6fc65691e750d0eaed0216dac377e5571d1& 11:13:03 <xarick> one goes left, other goes right, but the cost is the same, once it picks a direction, subsequent calls will stick to the path, cost only goes down 11:13:35 <xarick> automatic service is thus fine 11:14:19 <xarick> reverting tie breaker 11:15:25 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick closed pull request #12967: Codechange: [YAPF] Implement a tie breaker for Binary Heap https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/12967 11:18:19 *** ialokin has quit IRC 11:18:51 *** Borg has joined #openttd 11:20:48 <xarick> I focused too much on the asserts 😦 11:21:36 <xarick> it's the cost that matters apparently 11:24:26 <xarick> perhaps I should assert the costs 😛 11:29:36 <kuhnovic> Think one level higher. What are you trying to solve? Then try to decompose that larger problem into smaller subproblems. 11:41:16 <_glx_> And most likely the solution will be in controller, not in pf 11:42:42 <_glx_> But first step is to properly describe the problem 11:45:30 <truebrain> Alright, Cloudflare accepted us in their OSS program; so we no longer will be charged for most of the Cloudflare cost 🙂 11:45:36 <LordAro> \o/ 11:46:23 <_glx_> Which were nothing compared to AWS costs? 11:48:23 <truebrain> more than OCI less than AWS 😛 11:50:01 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #12974: Fix #8932: Changed Max Loan in Settings From Currency Value to Percentage https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/12974#issuecomment-2391221801 12:05:51 <truebrain> (to be more exact, OCI is ~10 dollar, AWS is ~200 dollar, and Cloudflare was ~30 dollar) 12:09:14 <reldred> \o/ 12:11:16 <xarick> I don't wanna solve the problem via controller 12:11:59 <xarick> it wouldn't be able to detect a change in the path 12:15:29 <xarick> if it finds a path to a depot that is a bit further away and then i place one depot much closer to the ship, without obstructing the first path, how would it detect there's now a closer depot? 12:16:35 <xarick> how would the controller detect this 12:16:46 <kuhnovic> You don't, because it's such a niche use case 12:17:07 <xarick> eh, no that's how the other vehicle types finding depots work 12:17:13 <kuhnovic> And you could still do it by doing a search in the checkIfShipNeedsService 12:20:45 <kuhnovic> It's about seperation of concerns here. The pathfollower is used to finds paths between an origin and a destination (or multiple of those). A ship controller is the logic that controls the ship and does the decision making. This separation is important because is keeps things less tightly couplet, and therefore more generic to use in other situations. 12:22:04 <kuhnovic> You don't really want to make changes to the pathfinder here. You want to make changes to the thing that's calling the pathfinder: the ship controller. You want that controller to behave differently so it's smarter about chosing the right depot. The pathfinder is just a tool being used in that process. 12:25:14 <peter1138> truebrain: MBP is free 12:25:26 <truebrain> he keeps replacing it and charging us for it 12:25:32 <truebrain> not sure it is actually "free" 😛 12:35:58 <xarick> I don't see a way... 12:44:03 <xarick> I end up in the same rhetoric, my thinking process keeps leading me to the pathfinder 12:51:06 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 12:53:30 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] AviationGamerX commented on pull request #12974: Fix #8932: Changed Max Loan in Settings From Currency Value to Percentage https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/12974#issuecomment-2391347983 12:54:31 <xarick> <https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/ship_cmd.cpp#L189-L199> 12:54:31 <xarick> this part... and here I go a gain... should be done by the pathfinder, to make sure it sticks to the same path, in the situation of automatic servicing. I can't get my head away from consulting with the pf 😦 12:55:00 <xarick> it does a better job at calculating distances 12:55:41 <kuhnovic> Think about this: so what if the same path can't physically be returned, for example after some terraforming? 12:57:10 <kuhnovic> You don't really care about the path itself. What you care about is that the ship chooses a depot to service in, and then sticks to that depot. The path can change, that's ok. The depot can't change under normal circumstances. 12:58:33 <kuhnovic> Then you start thinking of cases like: but what if the depot becomes unreachable? But what if the depot suddenly requires a big detour after terraforming? And according to you: what if a depot appears that is closer? 12:59:40 <kuhnovic> _Those_ are the cases you should be thinking about, and how to deal with them 13:01:47 <kuhnovic> Hint: you can directly call the high level PF to figure out if a depot is reachable, or to figure out how far away it is (counted in regions, so very coarse) 13:03:21 <kuhnovic> Or you can use the visitRegionNeighbors or whatever it's called directly, and do a breadth first search. That's why the current depot logic is doing, the one I wrote. 13:03:49 <peter1138> There comes a point when it's easier to just do it and avoid the flailing 😉 13:06:55 <kuhnovic> Already halfway there, but I really don't have a whole lot of spare time in the near future unfortunately 13:07:20 <xarick> i'd like to peak at what you're trying, do you have coded some already? 13:08:05 <xarick> maybe by reading the code I will understand what you're trying to tell me 13:09:20 <kuhnovic> It's on my machine at home, I currently don't have access to it 13:09:42 <kuhnovic> I can put it in a draft PR soon 13:11:30 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:12:39 <xarick> kuhnovic: it then goes to another depot if reachable, or cancels the servicing (keeps returning no depot found each call) 13:17:29 <xarick> seems we may be having different answers / problems depending on the solution each of us is going with 13:34:28 <peter1138> These are "things you think about when devising your solution", not "things to answer in discord" 13:35:34 <johnfranklin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1291393211495092294/IMG_5132.jpg?ex=66ffef26&is=66fe9da6&hm=a0c0dcd13fc613c3e84af84092a264b0ba2c854e210c8658b0e3cbd6ce85f7bc& 13:35:35 <johnfranklin> I predict the weather will be bad soon 13:37:06 <LordAro> pfft, lovely day 13:46:48 *** godbed has quit IRC 13:57:37 *** akimoto has joined #openttd 14:04:47 <xarick> i detected no ships circling on the 70k save 14:06:00 <xarick> results from without the tie-breaker 14:08:16 <xarick> is it safe to stop caring about hlpf path costs at this point? 14:08:40 <xarick> everything points to yes 14:09:03 <talltyler> I never cared and nothing bad has happened to me 😛 14:13:49 <xarick> it doesn't hurt keeping some limit, but if I can do without the changes, better keep it simple 14:14:04 <xarick> less changes = better 14:21:37 <andythenorth> johnfranklin: that's just a lovely autumn day in the UK 14:21:51 <andythenorth> and also "I predict the weather will be bad soon" is almost any day in the UK 14:25:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #12974: Fix #8932: Changed Max Loan in Settings From Currency Value to Percentage https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/12974#issuecomment-2391560470 14:25:47 <bigyihsuan> maybe i should look into getting the "create random industries" button in the scenario editor to respect the industry density setting 14:40:13 *** akimoto has quit IRC 14:42:30 *** flote has joined #openttd 14:42:30 <flote> I'm getting a "Could not connect to the content server" whenever i open the Check Online Content Menu, Im running version 14.1 via steam. Any way to fix this? 14:43:25 <flote> sorry if this isnt the right place to ask 15:06:43 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 15:07:32 <bigyihsuan> bigyihsuan: since it feels like the initial industry denstity when you click the button looks roughly the same no matter the industry density setting 15:17:31 <talltyler> Sounds like a good fix to me 15:22:54 <peter1138> `industry_cmd.cpp:2372`, in the scenario editor it's explicitly forced to use the 'very low' setting. 15:26:38 *** gelignite has quit IRC 15:29:39 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:35:22 *** keikoz has joined #openttd 15:49:32 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd 15:51:59 *** Flygon__ has joined #openttd 15:53:10 <bigyihsuan> ~~personally i want a very low setting that's a little more dense than minimal but less than very low~~ 15:56:30 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:57:50 <talltyler> Custom industry number? 15:59:00 *** Flygon_ has quit IRC 15:59:30 <andythenorth> GS 15:59:39 <andythenorth> "too soon?" 16:18:11 <bigyihsuan> talltyler: being able to set custom industry number in the scenario editor would work too 16:26:08 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:35:08 *** gelignite has quit IRC 16:46:47 *** Borg has quit IRC 16:50:06 *** Tirili has quit IRC 17:08:03 <xarick> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1291446684634710146/image.png?ex=670020f3&is=66fecf73&hm=944ce09295bda5960d0b9fac821223f40370ce128bff1de9ba6ad15925090311& 17:08:03 <xarick> i made it slightly smarter 17:08:32 <xarick> it used to go right to the top 17:09:01 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 17:10:17 <xarick> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1008473233844097104/1291447247204122644/image.png?ex=67002179&is=66fecff9&hm=4b53651bcfdbc38a7406be2ad206f2fe83cf64ab66dec83a359c86a59a12ba37& 17:10:17 <xarick> but it's still dumb overall 17:19:19 <xarick> can't beat the dist_square approach 17:23:27 <xarick> is there a way to use yapf to collect the various best_nodes when multiple paths are found with the same cost? 17:24:02 <xarick> I wanna use the dist_square approach at that point 17:26:05 <xarick> if I could do that, it would pick the depot to the south