Log for #openttd on 1st October 2007:
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08:48:15  <TrueBrain> howdie all
08:50:44  <mcbane> morning =)
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09:24:19  <dihedral|work> morning ladies :-)
09:25:30  <TrueBrain> hi joiner
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09:55:00  <dihedral|work> :-P
09:55:05  <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: nice to see you back
09:55:38  <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/0production.png
09:55:44  <dihedral|work> :-P
09:55:50  <mcbane> heh
09:55:57  <mcbane> thats not much
09:56:41  <dihedral|work> i thought it was not supposed to go below 32?
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10:52:41  <TrueBrain> dihedral|work: gained successes in the past doesn't garantuee any in the future ;)
10:53:34  <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: that forrest was jumping every 2 months between 0 and 33T
10:53:46  <TrueBrain> dihedral|work: make a bug report (including savegame :))
10:54:16  <TrueBrain> oeh, the choices.. do I download House S04E01 in HR quality or not...
10:54:17  <dihedral|work> :-(
10:54:22  <dihedral|work> aint got the save :-P
10:54:27  <TrueBrain> so much more diskspace....
10:54:37  <TrueBrain> now that is just plain stupid
10:54:42  <dihedral|work> i have 70 megs of save game for each game
10:54:42  <TrueBrain> you have a bug, and you don't make a savegame
10:54:53  <dihedral|work> yep
10:54:56  * dihedral|work agrees
10:55:30  <dihedral|work> i'll see if one of the players from that time has a save :-)
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10:56:40  <dihedral|work> how many savegames would i need if saving every 6 months and wanting to keep saves for 24 hours?
10:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> how much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
10:57:36  <dihedral|work> wenn griechen hinter griechen kriechen...
10:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> dihedral|work: a day is roughly 2 seconds
10:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> so a month is around an hour
10:59:03  <dihedral|work> 18 mins to a month
10:59:10  <dihedral|work> sorry
10:59:33  <dihedral|work> Eddi|zuHause2: funny that - i get 3 years in an hour
11:00:12  <dihedral|work> 18 mins to a year...
11:00:23  <dihedral|work> so 2 seconds a day cannot be quite right
11:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> err... wait...
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11:01:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> 2 seconds/day * 30 days/month = 1 minute/month
11:01:44  <Ammller> dihedral|work: I think, its about 14 mins
11:01:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> * 12 months/year = 12 minutes
11:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you get more like 4 years per hour
11:02:17  <Ammller> thats a yearly autosave: http://mozart.ammler.ch/tt-ms/save/autosave/
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11:05:09  <Ammller> as Eddi|zuHause2 said, its roughly 2 sec, not exact, so its a little more
11:08:24  <Niki-> hi :)
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11:16:17  <dihedral|work> Ammller: my halfyear savegames are in 8 to 9 minute intervals...
11:17:11  <Ammller> hmm, does that make such differences
11:17:15  <dihedral|work> giving me 16 minutes for a year at shortest, and 18 minutes at max
11:17:33  <dihedral|work> that was the atime values i compared
11:17:45  <dihedral|work> i did not pay attention to seconds :-)
11:18:28  <Ammller> i'll check coop
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11:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> dihedral|work: years can get longer if the game is very crowded, and the computer does not keep up
11:46:04  <dihedral|work> cpu is at 10% per game
11:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> then your clock is too fast :p
11:48:53  <svip> Anything new lately in the trunk?
11:48:56  <svip> Haven't checked.
11:49:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes. transparent snow on houses :p
11:49:19  <svip> Really?
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11:55:31  <Ammller> svip: do you know autoslope?
11:55:46  <svip> As in slope terrain under tracks?
11:56:30  <Ammller> yes
11:56:50  <Ammller> and houses industries etc.
11:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, as in create foundations for houses if you terraform next to them
11:56:56  <svip> Oh.
11:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> without clearing the house first
11:57:37  <Ammller> thats something coolest since newhouses
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11:58:29  <Bjarni> interesting feature request...
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11:58:47  <Bjarni> requesting autorenew to be able to change one model with another one
11:59:12  <Bjarni> "But you missed the point: the autoreplace does NOT allow me to upgrade the vehicle (change the model)"
12:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> and you said "let me code that in a few seconds"?
12:00:36  <Bjarni> nahh
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12:01:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> "that'd take at least 2 years to get it working right."
12:01:00  <Bjarni> it took a year to get working, so it's not that trustworthy to claim to be able to do it in a matter of seconds
12:01:14  <Bjarni> yeah, it's still not working right :P
12:01:35  <Bjarni> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1264 <-- the currently known issue
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12:09:25  <Bjarni> anyway this guy wrote a whole lot
12:09:39  <Bjarni> in fact too much... :P
12:10:06  <Bjarni> like... should I really read all of this because this guy didn't find the autoreplace window?
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13:03:02  <fjb> Hi
13:03:07  <dihedral|work> hi
13:04:00  <fjb> Is there a way to get the stats of the vehicles in a game?
13:10:55  *** glx is now known as glx|away
13:20:01  <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: i think i may have found a sav - i shall check :-)
13:20:06  <dihedral|work> laters ladies
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13:31:56  <Bjarni> <fjb> Is there a way to get the stats of the vehicles in a game? <--- there is the vehicle details window and the vehicle list window
13:32:05  <Bjarni> the company screen contains the vehicle count
13:32:18  <Bjarni> the replace window contains the number of vehicles of each type
13:32:27  <Bjarni> but apart from that... I don't think so
13:32:45  <Bjarni> but we are always open for good ideas ;)
13:32:53  <Bjarni> specially if they are followed by a diff
13:35:46  <De_Ghost> copy and paste
13:35:51  <De_Ghost> copy AND PASTE!!
13:35:52  <De_Ghost> lol
13:39:34  <Bjarni> ?
13:46:54  *** Ammller [~Ammler@adsl-62-167-28-254.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:52:28  <De_Ghost> that patch
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13:58:49  <fjb> Bjarni: Thank you.
13:59:24  <Bjarni> you shouldn't thank me
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13:59:36  <Bjarni> you should write a patch to give even more stats :P
14:00:00  <fjb> I thougt about a possibility to list all vehicles in an NewGRF with all the Details like loading speed etc.
14:00:10  <fjb> :-)
14:00:21  <fjb> I have to understand the source first...
14:00:29  <Bjarni> hey
14:00:31  <Bjarni> that's my idea
14:00:43  <Bjarni> and I too haven't coded anything regarding this :P
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14:01:37  <fjb> I have more ideas I would like to code, but C derived languages are not that userfriendly... :-)
14:02:47  <Bjarni> I saw a poll about which programming language people prefer to use
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14:02:54  <Bjarni> most people prefer C# or PHP
14:03:14  <Bjarni> surprisingly more people prefer Brainfuck than C
14:03:34  <fjb> They don't know the better modern languages. And people can only vote for things they know.
14:04:22  <fjb> Brainfuck is cool, there is no chance to understand what you wrote. So just write anything and forget about it. :-)
14:04:31  <Bjarni> heh, people complain about the lack of java in the poll :D
14:04:49  <SpComb> was there a Python option?
14:04:57  <Bjarni> yeah
14:05:18  <fjb> Java is not that better than C. The Syntax is like C extendet. Not much better to nderstand.
14:05:19  <Bjarni> http://newz.dk/ <-- it's in Danish, but I guess the names are universal
14:05:45  <Bjarni> people didn't say anything about Java being better, just that it's missing from the list
14:06:02  <Bjarni> more people prefer whitespace than ML and TCL
14:06:29  <fjb> What is Andet?
14:07:03  <Bjarni> "the rest"
14:07:13  <fjb> ML ist hard to understand if you don't care about funktional programming.
14:07:18  <Bjarni> some people read that as "I can't code" :P
14:07:23  <fjb> Ah. :-)
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14:07:58  <Bjarni> oh
14:08:01  <Bjarni> that reminds me
14:08:15  <Bjarni> I got to check out some functional programming before the lecture tomorrow
14:08:15  <fjb> OcaML is a really interesting version of ML.
14:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> i like pascal syntax much better than c syntax
14:08:27  <fjb> Me too.
14:08:41  * SpComb likes Python syntax
14:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> especially the := vs. = matter prevents so many errors
14:09:04  * Bjarni voted C
14:09:20  <Bjarni> though I thought of CLIPS as a worthy candidate as well
14:09:23  <fjb> Pascal syntax is far better to understand, but you have to type more and people tend to be lazy, especially if they don't habe to take care about the code.
14:09:53  <fjb> Common LISP?
14:10:06  <Bjarni> no :P
14:10:23  <fjb> I don't know CLIST then.
14:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> my father programmed in clipper most of the time
14:10:32  <Bjarni> CLIPS it's a functional coding language
14:10:59  <fjb> LISP is the grandmother of all functional languages.
14:11:04  <Bjarni> http://www.ghg.net/clips/CLIPS.html
14:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, lambda calculus is :p
14:11:20  <Bjarni> it's not as general as C or ML though
14:11:49  <Bjarni> but really cool once you have a task suited for it
14:12:45  <Bjarni> http://www.ghg.net/clips/CLIPS-FAQ <-- basically the first question is what you wants to ask ;)
14:12:57  <fjb> Something like Prolog. Long ago I did some things in Prolog.
14:13:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> prolog is funny
14:13:40  <Bjarni> heh
14:13:41  <fjb> The first Prolog interpreter was inplemented in LISP. :-)
14:13:50  <Bjarni> why?
14:13:55  <Bjarni> self torture?
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14:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> there is a lisp interpreter implemented in lisp
14:14:37  <fjb> No, Prolog is really fun. You feed it with something and are astonished what you get in the and.
14:14:48  <Bjarni> I like the first expert system. It was made to emulate expert workers' minds and it was based on the idea that everything is based on rules
14:14:51  <Bjarni> it didn't work
14:15:06  <Bjarni> turned out that experts knows stuff that you can't set up as rules :P
14:15:49  <fjb> Japanese third generation computing relied on expert system. That was way back in the 80s...
14:16:07  <Bjarni> say like driving a car... you can do that based on rules, but to do it right, you need some information on what goes on in the car to do it right
14:16:45  <Bjarni> like one fact that you have to know in order to drive right is the speed limit :)
14:17:05  <Bjarni> you can't set up a rule to tell the speed limit as it's just a fact, not a rule by itself
14:17:23  <fjb> Driving a car is no good example. That is one of the few things that can really be put into ruules. (If you have enough sensors to get all needed information)
14:17:38  <Bjarni> then you need sensors
14:17:48  <Bjarni> well
14:17:55  <Bjarni> yeah, I guess you are right
14:18:27  <Bjarni> anyway I think you get the idea that rules alone isn't always enough to "emulate an expert"
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14:19:17  <fjb> You need sensors for every kind of control system.
14:19:22  <Bjarni> yeah
14:19:32  <Bjarni> and you need to know what to do with the sensors
14:19:34  <fjb> Even an expert needs sensors.
14:19:42  <fjb> Put a blind driver in a car...
14:19:49  <Bjarni> I mean what to do with the sensor outputs
14:20:20  <fjb> Expert systems work if you have enough sensors.
14:20:31  <Bjarni> <fjb> Put a blind driver in a car... <-- it happens... some guy in Barcelona bribed himself into getting a drivers license even though he was nearly blind
14:20:44  <fjb> :-)
14:21:11  <Bjarni> it took a few years to catch him as the police said it was ok when they saw the license and he just stared at where he presumed the officer's head would be
14:21:11  <fjb> Nearly blind is not blind. Better a bad sensor than no sensor. :-)
14:21:33  <Bjarni> surprisingly he didn't have more accidents than other drivers in Barcelona
14:21:53  <fjb> I guess he didn't drive that much.
14:22:09  <Bjarni> nearly blind as he could make out if there was a car in front of him if he was tailgating
14:22:25  <Bjarni> if there was say 3 meters between the cars, then he could not see it anymore
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14:22:42  <fjb> Sometimes that is enough information. It's like driving in fog.
14:23:02  <Bjarni> you can't drive in fog that's so dense
14:23:19  <fjb> You can... :-)
14:23:24  <Bjarni> not safely
14:23:49  <Bjarni> you will have to assume that the road is clear because you can't see it good enough
14:23:51  <fjb> Who spoke about safely?
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14:25:09  <fjb> It depends on you evironment how good your sensors have to be. Sometimes it is enough to tell bright from dark.
14:25:14  <Bjarni> I once saw a woman in the news telling about the fog. She said that she was following another car and just followed the taillights because the fog prevented her from seeing the road at that speed. When the car in front of her lost sense of the road and ended up on a field, she turned into the field as well
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14:26:03  <Bjarni> the guy in the front car was a local taxi driver and he knew the road... it happened anyway
14:26:33  <hylje> cars are very unsafe
14:26:34  <hylje> news at 11
14:26:36  <fjb> That was bad luck.
14:26:59  <hylje> while one may think cars are safe
14:27:09  <Bjarni> the police called it reckless driving as both cars were speeding
14:27:14  <hylje> why does one shrug when newspaper says a car crashed off a cliff
14:27:19  <Bjarni> driving like 90 when the conditions allowed like 40
14:27:26  <hylje> compared to when a train is completely destroyed
14:27:28  <fjb> An expert system driving the car could have done better, think about sensor humans don't have. Things like radar oder ir sensors.
14:27:43  <hylje> or an airplane, which is thought as slightly unsafe
14:28:23  <fjb> Most modern planes can safely land without a pilot.
14:28:38  <Bjarni> yeah
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14:29:14  <Bjarni> imagine that the pressure drops and everybody on board dies. The plane can at least in theory just continue to the destination and land
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14:29:39  <hylje> haha
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14:29:42  <fjb> That are kind of expert system. They have sensors and rules. And the can fly a plane safely almost anywhere.
14:29:57  <Bjarni> plane saved even though everybody died.... it would at least be better than a crash since nobody would get hit on the ground
14:31:47  <fjb> That happend in Greece some years ago. The people on board where dead or almost dead an the airplane reached the destination airport. Sadly it was not programmed to land by itself. The pilot had have to tell it to the autopilot. But he couldn't anymore. So the plane eventually crashed when the fuel was empty.
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14:37:03  <dihedral> TrueBrain: FS#1278
14:40:39  <fjb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522
14:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, if only one had set up remote access (ssh) :p
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14:42:52  <dihedral> looks like Zeus was not too happy... :-P
14:45:10  <dihedral> my image did not upload correctly to fs!
14:46:17  <fjb> Yes. It was thought about to control airplanes exclusivly from the ground to prevent terror attacks. But Airplanes nned a Pilot when some thing unexpected happens.
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14:49:13  <Brianetta> fjb: One problem - if the terrorists decide to hijack the ground control station, they have plenty of planes to use as missiles and might even survive.
14:49:22  <SmatZ> hello
14:49:27  <Brianetta> SmatZ.
14:49:31  <Bjarni> SmatZ!
14:49:55  <Bjarni> long time no see
14:49:56  <SmatZ> Brianetta  Bjarni heelllloooooo :-)
14:50:00  <SmatZ> oh yes
14:51:45  <fjb> Brianetta: That was the problem of that stupid idea. Next time terrorist use a truck and every truck has to have remote control? Stupid idea...
14:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, trains have a button that you need to press (or release) every X seconds, to notice if the driver fell asleep
14:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> planes could do the same, and start autopilot then
14:52:27  <Brianetta> Eddi, they fell unconscious whilst under autopilot
14:52:37  <Brianetta> They didn't wake up again
14:52:43  <fjb> Yes, but a train just stops than. No problem for a Zeppelin either. But an airplane?
14:53:00  <Brianetta> fjb: Aircraft could descend to a safe altitude
14:53:13  <Brianetta> but then somebody at ATC would have to clear a path, send for an escort, etc
14:53:24  <fjb> Just think abou high mountains...
14:53:36  <Brianetta> Besides, on a long haul, the pilot might not even be in the cockpit
14:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> autopilot should alredy know about those
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14:54:16  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: and then what? A train can stop if there is no one driving it. It wouldn't make sense to just turn off the plane engines and activate all brakes
14:54:57  <Brianetta> Newer airliners can complete a journey without a pilot
14:55:07  <Brianetta> but at present they have to be told to doo so in advance
14:55:19  <Brianetta> and a pilot is, of course, on hand to take over in a contingency
14:55:19  <fjb> Btw, what do planes in OpenTTD do if the can not land? Do the fly endlessly?
14:55:28  <Brianetta> fjb: They explode
14:55:30  <Bjarni> we need an AI to take over in case something goes wrong
14:55:43  <Bjarni> fjb: they crash
14:55:49  <Brianetta> fjb: Make a plane, get it in the air, and demolish its airports
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14:56:08  <Brianetta> They "run out of fuel" very quickly
14:56:19  <fjb> The aotopilot should be programmed to land without a pilot.
14:56:47  <Brianetta> fjb: Many autopilots can't
14:57:03  <Brianetta> THey can maintain altitude, speed and heading to a determined program
14:57:16  <Brianetta> which includes making turns, but not landing
14:57:19  <fjb> I once demolished one of the airports while building a new one. No plane crashed, maybe I just build the new one quick enough.
14:57:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> landing is a difficult task, i assume such a program gets very expensive
14:57:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> so a cheap flight company might not have those
14:58:06  <fjb> Modern autopilots are able to land the plane if the airport guidance system support it.
14:58:54  <Brianetta> fjb: Some modern autopilots, you mean
14:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, and then terrorists capture the airport and modify the reported height
14:59:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> to make the plane crash
14:59:12  <Brianetta> Eddi: They don't report height.  That was a Die Hard 2 mistake.
14:59:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah ;)
14:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> i thought that was stupid also :p
14:59:41  <Brianetta> The aircraft tells the airport how high it is
15:00:02  <Brianetta> and if the airport thinks it's very different, a human is called
15:00:57  <fjb> The plane is not under remotecontrol while landing. The autopilot does it of it's own. The ground control just helps it.
15:04:03  <dihedral> Brianetta: can i source a file in tcl more than once?
15:04:25  <Brianetta> yes, but it will be run more than once
15:04:38  <Brianetta> Defined procedures and so on will be fine
15:04:52  <Brianetta> but variables will be re-initialised, and any logic will be run again
15:04:53  <fjb> Is there an ovwerview of the OpenTTD source anywhere?
15:05:07  <Brianetta> so if the file opens network connections or files, you might want to think twice
15:06:49  <dihedral> so if i have the ! commands source a tcl file, i could add them without having to restart autopilot
15:07:23  <dihedral> would the procedures be redefined then if they are in a sourced file?
15:07:36  <hylje> fjb: svn.openttd.org
15:08:31  <fjb> Thank you, that helps a bit.
15:09:10  <dihedral> Brianetta: just trying to find a way i can make amendments ( e.g. adding features) without having to restart autopilot and with that the entire game
15:09:26  <fjb> What do passenger do? Do they enter the first vehicle and the exit at the next stop?
15:09:35  <dihedral> yep
15:09:45  <hylje> ye
15:09:49  <Brianetta> dihedral: Like I said, rewrite it.  It was designed as a one-shot program, because that's how I run my own server,
15:10:29  <dihedral> Brianetta: i shall listen to you for this time :-D
15:10:40  <Brianetta> (:
15:12:54  <fjb> How do you hadle big cities? Do you link single bus stops like a star around the train station or airport?
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15:16:26  <Brianetta> doesn't really matter
15:16:48  <Brianetta> unless you play with transfer orders, they just get off at the next stop.  Doesn't matter if it's another bus stop or an airport.
15:18:31  <fjb> Transfer orders don't prevent the passengers to leave the bus at the next stop. Or did I miss something?
15:19:58  <dihedral> transfer + full load
15:20:43  <fjb> But then it waits till it is full. It doesn't just catch the waiting passengers.
15:20:58  <dihedral> it does
15:21:10  <dihedral> i.e. it does not wait until it's full
15:21:26  <dihedral> it says in the order (transfer and take cargo)
15:22:03  <dihedral> http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Transfer_order%2C_setting_up_feeder_systems
15:22:24  <fjb> Oh, I have to try it.
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15:23:36  <dihedral> reading the wiki or the transfer order?
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15:25:59  <fjb> Trying transfer order. I read in the wiki, but it looks like i missen some important things.
15:26:46  <fjb> I only knew how transfer unload works. But I thought transfer full load would wait till the vehicle is full.
15:27:24  <fjb> Now I hve to set up enough busses.
15:27:27  <fjb> have
15:29:10  <svip> Bjarni, here is a friendly warning; http://www.isarapix.com/pix5/1191249757.png
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15:30:05  <dihedral> svip - nice one
15:30:19  <svip> ;o
15:31:43  <fjb> Why do all the call back only have numbers and no readable nick name?
15:32:09  <dihedral> what?
15:33:17  <fjb> I just read callback 14A. What ist that? Can it not have a descriptive name, too?
15:33:35  <dihedral> where do you read that?
15:34:30  <glx> fjb: they have full name in source
15:34:34  <Belugas> 	/** Called to determine the color of an industry. */
15:34:34  <Belugas> 	CBID_INDUSTRY_DECIDE_COLOUR          = 0x14A,
15:35:01  <glx> but we like to "hide" stuff in commit log :)
15:35:36  <dihedral> that's what he's talking about...!
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15:36:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> <fjb> Why do all the call back only have numbers and no readable nick name? <- because the Patch developers are assembler freaks
15:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> nothing has descriptive names in assembler world
15:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> PS: why the inconsistent use of "color" vs. "colour"?
15:38:08  <dihedral> us vs uk
15:38:12  <dihedral> :-P
15:38:49  <dihedral> or some us guy pretending to be a snob just because he went to oxford or cambridge :-)
15:39:24  <Belugas> there are no us guys in ottd dev team :)
15:39:42  <dihedral> :-D
15:39:44  <dihedral> ca
15:39:54  <dihedral> it's all the same for europeans...
15:39:58  * dihedral coughts
15:40:00  <dihedral> :-D
15:41:08  <fjb> dihedral: I read it in the changelog.
15:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> i know what the "color" vs. "colour" issue is about, i was asking why using two different spellings in two consecutive lines
15:42:36  <fjb> How platform dependent are the patches?
15:42:42  <glx> because it was CBID_INDUSTRY_DECIDE_COLOR before a recent consistency check in enum names
15:42:50  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause2: was just trying to be funny... a little
15:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> you failed :p
15:43:18  <dihedral> well - yes...
15:43:23  <dihedral> noticed - but thanks
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15:43:55  <glx> <fjb> How platform dependent are the patches? <-- what do you mean?
15:44:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: what is a platform in your context?
15:44:34  <fjb> Do they depend on a specific processor architecture?
15:44:49  <glx> patches are just text files
15:45:31  <fjb> I think I have to look at the patches more closely.
15:47:40  <Bjarni> svip: that's obscene
15:47:54  <fjb> Looks like grf is a container for grafics, sounds (which I didn't get to work on FreeBSD yet), ansome text.
15:47:54  <Bjarni> you have been to Sweden???
15:48:08  <svip> :O :( Yes.
15:48:11  <svip> ;-; I must confess.
15:48:30  <Bjarni> but it's full of....
15:48:35  <Bjarni> Swedes...
15:48:37  <svip> Swedes?!
15:48:40  <glx> fjb: oh you were talking about newgrf?
15:48:53  <Bjarni> yeah
15:48:59  <Bjarni> Swedish people speaking Swedish
15:49:07  <svip> I never got further than MalmÞ.
15:49:45  <Bjarni> I have been in Malmö once
15:49:53  <Bjarni> sorry, twice
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15:50:03  <Bjarni> got to the station and then headed back home
15:50:23  <fjb> glx: Yes, what else are callback for? Maybe I did miss something. I'm still now to the world of TTD.
15:50:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: a newgrf is something entirely different from a patch
15:51:08  <glx> newgrf are platform independant (they are "interpreted" by TTDP or OTTD)
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15:52:05  <fjb> Ok, I think I confused some things.
15:52:22  <glx> the windows/dos stuff is just dependant on original TTD files used (different palette)
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15:52:41  <Bjarni> and then I have been in Helsingborg and Markaryd
15:52:46  <fjb> I just read about callbacks in the changelog.
15:52:49  <Bjarni> oh, and Ystad too
15:53:15  <glx> well the callback recently added are not usable yet :P
15:53:34  <fjb> Will OpenTTD be independent from the original files in the future?
15:54:09  <Bjarni> maybe
15:54:36  <Bjarni> if somebody will finally get arsed to actually do some graphics that's not based on the TTD files
15:54:38  <Bjarni> and sounds
15:54:58  <Bjarni> technically we wouldn't need sounds or music, but then the game would be a bit lame
15:54:59  <fjb> glx: I just want to understand the whole callback system in the first place. I don't care if a callback is usable yet. I just want to know how callbacks work. The rest comes later.
15:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's like a swede going to a german fuel station demanding "öl" [swedish, meaning beer], but in german "Öl" means oil
15:55:23  <Bjarni> it happened or is it a joke?
15:55:42  <fjb> I play without sound all the time and really didn't miss anything.
15:55:43  <Bjarni> btw it's "Þl" in Danish
15:55:56  <glx> fjb: read the doc on http://wiki.ttdpatch.net
15:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i know a swede, who said he demanded "öl" in a bar, and the barkeeper looked at him strangely
15:56:42  <Bjarni> fjb: heh. Once the music broke on the mac port and I didn't notice... as luck would happen, I muted the computer most of the at that time
15:56:58  <Bjarni> and always while playing
15:57:05  <fjb> glx: Thank you.
15:57:11  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: hehe
15:57:39  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: we had great fun out of the fact that our German text book used the word "babyöl"
15:57:58  <Bjarni> well, some people thought it was great fun
15:58:01  <Bjarni> ... for a long time
15:58:04  <Bjarni> :/
15:58:32  <fjb> Bjarni: I didn't find out why there is no sound on FreeBSd. But I didn't care enough to investigate it. I prefer to play the game or think about what could be enhanced. :-)
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15:58:57  <Bjarni> like sounds? :)
15:59:12  <fjb> No sound. :-)
15:59:34  <Bjarni> I know one improvement that I could use
15:59:48  <fjb> Sounds tend to annoy me, when I think about the best route for the new railway.
15:59:52  <Bjarni> no users, who writes a novel that requests a feature I already implemented ages ago
16:00:04  <Bjarni> it takes forever to read and figure out what they mean :(
16:00:21  <fjb> :-) Educate the users.
16:00:34  <Brianetta> yes
16:00:38  <Brianetta> I have a LART
16:01:00  <fjb> :-)
16:01:15  <Brianetta> https://tyneside.lug.org.uk/fetchfile.php?fileid=18
16:01:18  <Bjarni> whoa... I wanted an improvement, not a full time job
16:01:20  <Brianetta> log in as guest, no password
16:01:30  <fjb> Who still knows what a LART is? The young people don't know it anymore, I guess.
16:01:41  <Brianetta> A clue-by-four
16:01:57  <Brianetta> and my own personal invention, the grammar hammer
16:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: i can imagine :p
16:03:01  <fjb> Nice LART.
16:03:07  <Brianetta> I know.
16:03:37  <fjb>  /dev/lart
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16:49:24  <Wolf01> hello
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16:50:09  <Digitalfox> Hello :)
16:50:43  <Digitalfox> What software do you guys use to create dvd covers? I'm talking of printing on dvd's images..
16:53:28  <Rubidium> wonders how one could print on something as virtual as an DVD image
16:53:39  *** Darkebie [~dkb@d5153D5CD.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
16:54:17  <SpComb> what software could I use to create cover images for my CD .iso files?
16:55:43  <SpComb> oh right, I extrapolated that from Rubidium's comment, but it was actually what Digitalfox asked
16:56:22  <dihedral> how is that Rubidium
16:56:29  <dihedral> just uploaded the data again
16:56:42  <Digitalfox> Yes i have miss explain myself.. What i mean is that i have a printer that supports printing on cd/dvd directly ( canon 4300 ), and the software that cames with it is a little weak for resizing images to use, so i would like to know with software to you use
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16:57:04  <Digitalfox> *do you use?
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17:28:06  <Ammller> [18:56] <SpComb> what software could I use to create cover images for my CD .iso files? <--- do you like to sell OTTD?
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17:28:29  <Greyscale> Ammller, lol
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17:28:37  <Greyscale> SpComb, bad. BAD
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17:28:47  <Ammller> hmm, why not
17:28:53  * SpComb doesn't understand
17:29:09  <Greyscale> Ammller is suggesting you're selling OTTD
17:29:18  <SpComb> no reason I couldn't sell OpenTTD on CDs, but it wasn't what I was talking about
17:29:37  <Greyscale> Isn't there?
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17:29:45  <Greyscale> if there is, there should be a reason
17:29:53  <SpComb> unless it's some bizarre variation of the GPL, no
17:30:04  <Greyscale> Hmm
17:30:09  <Greyscale> making money selling nothing
17:30:13  <Greyscale> wiiiierd
17:30:26  <SpComb> if you distribute a binary version of OpenTTD, you just have to include an offer for the source code
17:30:44  <SpComb> you're welcome to package OpenTTD in some nice way, perhaps add a bit of extra value in some way, and then sell it
17:30:57  <SpComb> although at that point it might get a little risky what with the atari/reverse-engineering thing
17:31:11  <fjb> But who would buy OpenTTD, which is not funktional without some origanal files from TTD?
17:31:27  <SpComb> you'd have to solve that problem before you sold it
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17:38:52  * Hendikins decides he might actually play ottd for the first time in ages
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17:47:23  <gynterk> hello, is it possible that 'non-stop' for trains is disabled somehow? since its not working for me
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17:47:54  <Greyscale> SpBot, I could see that work if you engineered new replacement files you need to run it
17:47:57  <gynterk> Orders show 'Go non-sop to mystation' but it'll still stop there
17:48:09  <Bjarni> it's possible that non-stop is broken and it's possible that you are using it wrong
17:48:45  <Bjarni> enable patch like non-stop in patch settings
17:49:27  <gynterk> uhm.. what are patch settings ?
17:50:10  <Bjarni> http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Configure_patches_window
17:50:42  <Bjarni> http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/ConfigureStationPatches#TTDPatch_compatible_non-stop_handling <-- in particular this one
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17:53:19  <gynterk> hmm
17:53:27  <gynterk> but in internet server, administrator has to enable it right ?
17:53:50  <Bjarni> hmm
17:54:07  <gynterk> since I enabled it and after logging in it's disabled
17:54:16  <Bjarni> some of the settings can be changed by the client and only by the server
17:54:28  <Bjarni> I think this is a server setting, though I'm not entirely sure
17:54:30  <Amixwoktest> hey
17:54:42  <Bjarni> hi Amixwoktest
17:55:10  <Amixwoktest> hows life?
17:55:11  <Amixwoktest> :)
17:55:22  <Bjarni> well
17:55:26  <Bjarni> it's in the present
17:55:41  <Bjarni> luckily not only in the past
17:55:52  <Bjarni> and it's likely in the future as well
17:56:14  <Amixwoktest> hehe
17:56:15  <Bjarni> so now you know when to look for it ;)
17:56:35  <Amixwoktest> wiseman
17:56:49  <Bjarni> you are right
17:56:56  <Bjarni> people do claim me to be wise
17:57:15  <Amixwoktest> nice description on www.osnews.com about amiga situation
17:57:55  <Amixwoktest> http://www.osnews.com/story.php/18703/Three-Men-a-Cow-and-the-Beating-of-the-Dead-Horse
17:58:23  <Bjarni> yikes
17:58:28  <Bjarni> you want me to read all of that?
17:58:35  <Amixwoktest> hehe
17:58:40  <Amixwoktest> its your future
17:58:44  <Amixwoktest> your choice :)
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17:58:52  <Bjarni> hehe
17:59:08  <Bjarni> I guess I asked for that one :P
17:59:31  <Amixwoktest> hehe
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18:33:25  <Hendikins> One day I'd love to be able to set a resolution of 2560x1024.
18:35:25  <boekabart> Hendikins: search the forum, there is a simple patch that enables that
18:35:54  <fjb> I find some text hard to read even at 1280 x 1024.
18:36:04  <Hendikins> Can't be stuffed patching. I'll just have ottd on one monitor and IRC on the other :P
18:36:28  <Bjarni> it depends on the size of the monitor
18:36:39  <Hendikins> Exactly.
18:36:45  <Bjarni> basically the question is the size of the pixel
18:36:48  <Bjarni> not the number of pixels
18:36:55  <Hendikins> I've got a 19" TFT on the right and 17" TFT on the left, which will be just fine
18:37:08  <Bjarni> even 640x480 can be hard to read on a 4" monitor
18:37:33  <fjb> I know. I have a 17"-TFT.
18:37:47  <Bjarni> I don't have a 4" monitor ;)
18:39:26  <boekabart> Bjarni: but wouldn't you love to have one
18:40:04  <fjb> I also have a 2"-Monitor (320 x 240).
18:40:09  <Bjarni> I would xD
18:40:27  <Bjarni> there is one in the lab
18:40:33  <Bjarni> ok, maybe it's 5"
18:40:37  <Bjarni> standard VGA
18:41:07  <Bjarni> it can be connected to the robots so the boot process can be seen (and tell where it goes wrong)
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18:42:59  <fjb> I should try OpenTTD for Windows Mobile on my 2". :-)
18:43:34  <globester> rofl
18:43:43  <globester> play a 2048x2048 :P
18:44:03  <Bjarni> do you have good eyes?
18:44:11  <Bjarni> because the text will be pretty small
18:59:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11191 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#1227]: GLS_ACTIVATION stage must be done immediatly after GLS_RESERVE stage, before the GLS_RESERVE stage for the next newgrf.
19:00:51  <SpComb> is it possible to load in custom newgrfs from locations other than where the default grfs (sample.cat, trg1r.grf, etc) are?
19:01:04  <SpComb> as in, specifify a path to a file outside the ./data/ dir
19:01:17  <glx> they must be in a subdir of data
19:01:34  <SpComb> and the default grfs have to be directly in data?
19:01:41  <glx> yes
19:02:32  <SpComb> I remember seeing some kind of support for a secondary data dir in OpenTTD
19:02:35  <Rubidium> there are several places where the data dir can be in trunk
19:02:36  <boekabart> well
19:02:39  <glx> but you can have "many" data dir
19:02:44  <Rubidium> so you can effectively do so
19:03:07  <boekabart> in windows: my Documents\Openttd\data is one of them
19:03:37  * glx puts all grfs in this one :)
19:03:37  <boekabart> (that's where I keep my original game grfs/cat and my newGrfs)
19:03:56  <boekabart> then every 'checkout' has it's own svn grfs in the bin/data - works like a charm
19:04:04  <glx> that way I can have an infinite number of working copies
19:04:15  <SpComb> I just want to keep all of the base grfs in one place in MyOTTD, and then just have custom newgrfs per-server
19:04:46  <glx> using trunk or 0.5.3?
19:05:13  <SpComb> ideally I'd want to retain support for as many versions as possible, although I don't really need the really old ones
19:05:15  <Rubidium> in 0.5.3 you've got the possibility for secondary data dirs
19:06:31  <Rubidium> it's somewhere in Makefile(.config)
19:06:44  <Rubidium> in trunk you can configure them using ./configure
19:07:57  <SpComb> alternatively I could just have a real data/ dir, and symlink the base grfs into there
19:08:35  <glx> you may have problems with openttd grfs
19:09:03  <SpComb> does the openttd.grf change between versions?
19:09:11  <Rubidium> it can
19:09:43  <SpComb> then I'll go for the symlink-per-file mode
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19:30:45  <mattt_> Has anyone ever suggested "flatwall" tunnel entrance/exits so they can be built over top of?  It would be kinda like an extension to the build on slopes patch.  Rather than have the "rounded" entrance/exits, it's just be a flat wall with a perpendicular rail over top (or road possibly).
19:31:53  <Rubidium> yes
19:32:07  <SmatZ> isn't it in ttdpatch?
19:32:31  <Rubidium> though no-one with good enough coding skills has implemented it
19:32:39  <mattt_> hum
19:33:44  <DaleStan> Not quite. You can build arbitrary rail over rail tunnel entrances. I think rail over road tunnel entrances is in the todo, but road over tunnel entrances was, I believe, deemed "too glitchy".
19:34:35  <mattt_> Hm.. I thought I tried, unsuccessfully, to build rail over a tunnel entrance last night
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19:34:52  <Rubidium> as you might not know, DaleStan is talking about ttdp, not ottd
19:34:57  <mattt_> oh
19:35:07  <DaleStan> (That was an answer to "Isn't that in TTDPatch?")
19:35:15  <mattt_> ah ha
19:35:45  <SmatZ> :-) mighty DaleStan still watching the channel, to answer quick any TTDPatch related questions
19:35:47  <mattt_> I didn't realize ttdp was still actively developed
19:37:00  <DaleStan> Not anywhere near as active as Open, but yes, still active.
19:39:40  <mattt_> hm.. what about "lighting up" a vehicles path?
19:40:04  <mattt_> that'd be a useful debugging tool for huge rail networks
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19:48:35  <fjb> How many passengers do appear at a bus stop? How is it calculated?
19:50:39  <Rubidium> depends on the amount generated by the tiles (houses and such) around it
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19:53:23  <glx> rating is important too
19:54:52  <fjb> Hm, the better the rating the more passengers appear?
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19:56:46  <fjb> And what does "acceptet freight: [2/8 Passengers]" mean?
19:58:14  <fjb> I guess the streets in the city are too short for the amount of busses I would need to move the passengers from the bus stop to the railway station. :-/
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19:59:55  <Rubidium> you need at least 8/8 (sum) <cargo> in the catchment of a station before it accepts it
20:01:10  <fjb> Is 8 always the nedded amount?
20:01:38  <fjb> needed
20:02:35  <SpComb> bleh, the configuration file parser that I'm using doesn't like the 'newgrfname.grf\n' style that OpenTTD uses :(
20:04:17  <Rubidium> fjb: the sum of that for all tiles in the catchment area must be more than 8/8
20:04:32  <fjb> Hm, and why does clone vehicle in the depot not also clone the refitting for a new cargo?
20:05:46  <fjb> Rubidium: Thank you. The minimum needed is always 8? Or is it sometimes different?
20:12:34  <Prof_Frink> fjb: The minimum needed is eight eigths, i.e. one.
20:13:23  <fjb> I just wantet to know if its always eights.
20:14:27  <fjb> I guess I slowly understand how transporting passengers work. Know I have always rushour in my testcity.
20:27:11  <fjb> And who made that stupid road layout? That city authoritiv should be fired.
20:29:08  <Phazorx> fjb: patch options have control over city street grid
20:29:30  <Phazorx> and the best option is not permit city to lay any roads and design it yourself
20:29:53  <Phazorx> I, for example, like 2x3 grid on most cases rather than 3x3 or 2x2
20:31:09  *** dihedral|away is now known as dihedral
20:31:31  <fjb> There is so few time for all things to do. I never have enough time to also lay out the streets of the fast growing citys.
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20:32:08  <dihedral> hello
20:32:17  <fjb> Hi
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20:37:00  <fjb> I need more busses...
20:38:14  <SpComb> you need to start a new game for any newgrfs that you add to be loaded?
20:38:42  <SpComb> and how important is the order of the newgrf files? Can I get by without implementing that aspect?
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20:39:26  <SpComb> if not, MyOTTD now has rudimentary NewGRF support
20:39:42  <DaleStan> Doesn't Open handle getting the order right automatically?
20:40:44  <SpComb> the in-game UI at lets you change the order of them
20:40:49  <fjb> You can add new GRFs while the game is running.
20:41:27  <glx> fjb: not recommended
20:41:40  <Phazorx> can add while running, most GRFs w/o restrictions at least, some elements are only used for starying new game
20:41:43  <glx> bad things may happen, like stuck trains or worse
20:41:46  <fjb> What is the right order? I think there is not always a right oder. It depends what you want to use from wich GRF.
20:41:56  <Phazorx> SpComb: order is relevant as some grfs my override actions of others
20:42:40  <SpComb> great, because this config file parser is inadequate in many ways... I suspect it can't keep the config file keys in the same order that they were in the file
20:43:12  <Phazorx> which confige parser, Progman's?
20:43:20  <SpComb> python stdlib's ConfigParser
20:44:01  <SpComb> it also choked on the "some.grf" without any "= value" until I monkey-patched in a new regexp
20:44:14  <SpComb> and by default it lowercases all keys, thus killing the case-sensitive newgrf filenames
20:45:34  <fjb> Better write a new parser...
20:47:17  <SpComb> but you can now upload new .grf files, enable/disable them and set the parameters
20:47:49  <Ammller> SpComb: what about uploading saves?
20:48:15  <Ammller> and I have still 500er
20:48:47  <SpComb> 500 error on what page?
20:48:53  <Ammller> every
20:51:23  <SpComb> right
20:51:34  <SpComb> I also need to fix up all the existing servers to use the new data folder
20:54:12  <SpComb> there
20:54:30  <SpComb> I think I even managed to do it without wiping out any data
20:56:53  <fjb> SpComb: Waht are you programming?
20:59:15  <fjb> Help! I need bigger busses! But where to get them?
21:01:38  *** KouDy [user@85.207.64.178] has quit [Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com]
21:02:45  <dihedral> Rubidium - are you around?
21:10:03  *** KouDy [~KouDy@85.207.64.178] has joined #openttd
21:19:53  <SpComb> Ammller: now you can upload savegames
21:20:01  <SpComb> fjb: MyOTTD, see the topic in the General OpenTTD section
21:20:04  <Rubidium> dihedral: no
21:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: try making a newgrf
21:22:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> or use an existing one
21:22:42  <Ammller> fjb: 4LV
21:23:29  <SpComb> another thing that I've been wondering about is that since I have all the newgrfs on the server, it would be really easy to provide some kind of .zip package of them for download - but then you have licence issues
21:23:50  <Ammller> indeed
21:23:58  <Ammller> you need also the readmes
21:24:03  <SpComb> in theory, you could have the user tick a "I assert that providing this grf file for download is legal" and somehow try and shift the blame onto them
21:24:08  <SpComb> that as well
21:24:09  <Ammller> or license files
21:24:46  <glx> better use a tar (no need to untar it to use it)
21:25:04  <SpComb> technical detail, doesn't solve the legal side of things
21:26:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> i guess for legality stuff you should communicate with the authors directly
21:26:20  <Ammller> SpComb: it should be possible to upload a archive, so we could also upload the readmes and license files
21:26:36  <Ammller> something simular to the grf pack of #openttdcoop
21:26:58  <SpComb> it would be the users uploading the GRFs to my server, not me providing them
21:27:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> similar </klugscheißer>
21:27:24  <SpComb> (well, providing some convient set of common NewGRFs for easy use is planned)
21:27:34  <SpComb> just dump a bunch of NewGRFs into some folder and symlink to them
21:27:35  *** Digitalfox [~chatzilla@bl7-183-222.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
21:28:08  <SpComb> I'm assuming that sticking a bunch of newgrfs onto my server and letting users load them into their savegames doesn't infringe on any licenses
21:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> as long as the license does not state "do not use with OTTD"
21:29:50  <Ammller> Eddi|zuHause2: something else then oskars grfs?
21:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> i only heard tales about those...
21:31:29  *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-234.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: reboot]
21:31:33  <fjb> Ammller: I'm already using 4LV, but the busses are till too small.
21:32:07  <fjb> I wonder why people forbit the use of their GRFs with OpenTTD. :-(
21:32:16  <fjb> forbid
21:33:01  <Ammller> because they don't like to participate on a "illegal" software ;)
21:33:35  <svippy> :|
21:34:58  <fjb> They don't participate if they do not especially allow it.
21:35:41  <fjb> The other thing is how much of OpenTTD could be considered illigal. It looks like most parts have been rewritten.
21:37:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> it doesn't really matter, it's still "based on" or a "derived work"
21:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> where the initial step (reverse engineering and putting the result under GPL) is the legally questionable part
21:38:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> only nobody felt the need [or wanted to invest the money] to clarify that part
21:40:37  <fjb> Is the reverse engeneered part still in the code base? Or has it been rewritten since?
21:40:47  <Wolf01> 'night
21:40:51  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host240-239-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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21:43:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> you cannot prove that every part has been eliminated
21:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> just search for variables called "unk*"
21:44:19  <fjb> It should be provable by the cvslogs.
21:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> !openttd commit 1
21:44:59  <SpComb> there, I can drop .grfs into a dir and they will be show up in the list of available newgrfs for everyone
21:45:02  <_42_> Commit by truelight :: r1 /trunk/ (200 files in 10 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
21:45:04  <_42_> Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
21:45:06  <fjb> BSD people proved the it doesn't contain eine UNIX code. (But UNIX contains much BSD code).
21:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> there, the first 975 revisions are lost
21:45:41  <fjb> :-(
21:45:47  <Ammller> SpComb: thats only usefull, if you let us download them
21:46:10  <Ammller> else its better, if we can upload the grfs
21:46:43  <SpComb> Ammller: well, they're just the most common ones grabbed off http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/GRF_list
21:47:20  <SpComb> but yes, I could research the licensing of each one manually, and provide more info/downloads
21:49:30  <SpComb> but I'm not at all sure if I can provide user-uploaded grfs for download
21:49:45  <Ammller> you can't
21:49:58  <Ammller> but you could provide user uploaded archives
21:50:10  <Ammller> or the user can self share them
21:50:15  <SpComb> then again, if the globals newgrfs are maintained well enough, nobody should need to upload their own ones, and I can provide the global ones for download
21:50:37  <SpComb> not sure letting the user upload an archive, and then providing that for download would help
21:50:48  <Ammller> I made simular work for #openttdcoop: http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/index.php/GRF
21:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, the least you can do is provide grfcrawler links
21:51:17  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause2: I need to start UDP-querying localhost to get info like the NewGRF IDs
21:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> aren't there already like half a dozen libraries that do that?
21:52:25  <SpComb> probably, but I haven't gotten around to it yet
21:52:30  <SpComb> there should be a console command for it :/
21:52:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, provide the patch ;(
21:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> ;)
21:53:06  *** David_McMahon [~fake@dsl-fixed-77-44-48-144.interdsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd
21:53:28  <SpComb> some kind of programmatic IPC interface for OpenTTD would be cool...
21:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> a what?
21:53:59  <SpComb> lots of things that could be changed inside OpenTTD that would making writing the MyOTTD daemon a lot easier
21:54:00  *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:54:25  <SpComb> replace the console with a binary command/response protocol, and expand it a bit to provide more info
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21:54:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm so glad that you volunteer for this ;)
21:54:56  <SpComb> well, not replace, but add it as an alternative of some sort
21:55:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, you can replace it, if you hook the console into that system afterwards
21:55:35  <SpComb> well, writing something like that would be a distinct possibility, perhaps at some point in the future, who knows
21:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's just another backend...
21:56:26  <SpComb> what's the newgrf/newgrf-static thing in openttd.cfg?
21:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> newgrf-static are newgrfs that are forced to load in every game, even network games which do not have them
21:57:03  <glx> newgrf-static are newgrf that don't need to be on the server
21:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> it is limited to newgrfs that do not change game rules, only graphic replacements
21:57:23  <glx> only "safe" newgrf are allowed to be here
21:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> i use dutchcatw and stolentrees there
21:58:07  <Ammller> hmm, there should be newgrf-static-before and ...after, else its not well useable
21:58:10  <SpComb> so it's irrelevant for a dedicated server, and different clients can have different things in that section?
21:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammller: you can change the order of static grfs in the newgrf settings
21:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> SpComb: yes, they are completely clientside
21:59:35  *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CE3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Progman]
22:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammller: i believe the static grfs are loaded afterwards, what sense would a "before" make?
22:01:12  <Ammller> i.e. bridges and road sets needs to be loaded earlier
22:01:27  *** Farden [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-88-101.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:01:28  *** Farden123 is now known as Farden
22:02:14  <SpComb> but the conclusion is that MyOTTD would need to provide a set of global newgrfs, with URLs, licenses, authors, GrfCrawler links, etc that could then be downloaded as an archive and used on servers
22:02:24  *** Tobin [~tobin@c58-107-50-36.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
22:02:44  <SpComb> as well as letting users upload their own .grfs, perhaps with links to where other people can then get it from
22:02:59  <SpComb> or automatically from GrfCrawler
22:03:24  *** boekabart [~bdb@ip218-114-173-82.adsl2.versatel.nl] has left #openttd []
22:03:29  <Hendikins> Ah, nothing like running some trains of decent length
22:04:07  <Ammller> GRFCrawler has only links to the grf, not more
22:04:18  <fjb> But never build a twoway single track... :-(
22:04:49  <Hendikins> I avoid single track period, but with trains that are 20 tiles long, you'd be nuts
22:05:45  *** Darkebie [~dkb@d5153D5CD.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: VIP Gill ;D]
22:05:59  <Hendikins> I found 4 decent coal mines within a 20x20 area, + running feeders from 2 more
22:06:12  <gynterk> what is Min Profit in detailed performance rating dialog?
22:06:34  <gynterk> and why it is 9
22:06:37  <gynterk> 0 *
22:06:38  <fjb> I once build a small commu7tor line. There was not much space between the city and the coast...
22:07:12  <fjb> Hendikins: You got lucky.
22:07:18  *** MarkSlap [~shit@h27n2c1o1114.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:07:20  *** Darkebie [~dkb@d5153D5CD.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
22:07:21  <Hendikins> fjb: Hell yes.
22:07:51  <Hendikins> I'm running 6 trains on that route.
22:07:52  *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:07:52  *** Darkebie [~dkb@d5153D5CD.access.telenet.be] has quit []
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22:09:41  <glx> gynterk: right clic on the line
22:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammller: bridge sets are usually game changing [speed limits etc.]
22:11:56  <fjb> My single track problem is solved. The is an ugly brigde parallel to the coast. I don't have to live there. :-)
22:12:02  *** SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:12:16  <Ammller> SpComb: dos grf aren't needed, I guess
22:12:52  <SpComb> Ammller: dos grfs of/for what?
22:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> if you use dos grfs on the server, all clients need to have dos grfs
22:13:19  <Ammller> you have loaded 2 newbridges
22:13:23  *** globester [~PP@131.227.231.159] has quit []
22:14:54  <SpComb> right
22:15:44  *** Farden [~jk3farden@AMontsouris-156-1-151-201.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )]
22:15:46  * SpComb has sent an email to eis_os about API access to GRF Crawler
22:18:22  <Amixwoktest> Bjarni: updated www.tv7norge.com today
22:18:47  * SpComb goes to sleep
22:19:35  <Bjarni> great timing
22:19:39  <Bjarni> I just got back
22:19:59  <Bjarni> after leaving IRC for like two hours
22:20:48  <Bjarni> heh
22:21:05  <Bjarni> clicking "ansatte" changes the text on the "Serie guiden" button
22:21:12  <Bjarni> I don't think that is intended ;)
22:22:05  *** KouDy [~KouDy@85.207.64.178] has quit [Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com]
22:22:34  <Bjarni> nice phone number :)
22:22:35  <Amixwoktest> hehe
22:22:48  *** gynterk [~gynter@88-196-200-147-dsl.rkv.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:22:51  <Bjarni> and I can see that you lowered the price
22:22:59  <Bjarni> it's not 100 kr/month anymore
22:23:40  <Bjarni> wow, free futurama :D
22:23:57  *** Greyscale [~Grey@host86-138-70-162.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:24:14  <Bjarni> but... what is popcorn?
22:24:25  <Amixwoktest> yes
22:24:37  <fjb> Why are signals on bridges not possible? :-(
22:24:39  <Amixwoktest> from about 19.30 to 20.30, channel will be for free
22:24:57  <Bjarni> fjb: long story, but it's a complex matter
22:25:00  <glx> fjb: because bridges are like tunnels
22:25:12  <glx> ie black holes
22:25:37  <Bjarni> glx: now that leaves the question "why are signals in tunnels not possible?" :P
22:26:00  <glx> :)
22:26:20  <Amixwoktest> you would need to add a bottom layer for that maybe?
22:26:33  <Bjarni> Amixwoktest: hmmm how do a one man TV channel handle news twice a day?
22:27:18  <Bjarni> Amixwoktest: as I said, it's a long and complex story, but we will make it possible.... some day... at least we plan to do that
22:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> Amixwoktest: one level is not enough, since tunnels can cross on different levels
22:27:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> (and at least theoretically, bridges can also)
22:27:41  <Bjarni> and it will likely not just be a new layer as tunnels needs to be able to cross each other at different heights
22:28:07  <Amixwoktest> like in Locomotion
22:28:08  <Bjarni> and we need a tunnel building interface that's better than the one in simutrans
22:28:14  <Amixwoktest> i hope you do it in a better way
22:28:33  <Bjarni> we will do it in a way that I approve
22:28:37  <Bjarni> (I hope)
22:28:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have never played locomotion
22:28:45  *** Greyscale [~Grey@host86-138-70-162.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
22:28:58  <Bjarni> locomotion is windows only, so we should rule that one out right away
22:29:04  <Amixwoktest> its like SimCity 2000
22:29:05  <Bjarni> too few of us can use it on the main OS
22:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: it's open source, if you do not approve, just fork out :p
22:29:15  <Amixwoktest> which have a day and underground view
22:29:27  <Bjarni> like simutrans
22:30:01  <Bjarni> simutrans also allows crossing tunnels at different heights, but if you make use of that, then you are fucked if you need to modify it as you can't select which layer to edit
22:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> Amixwoktest: that means, if the land is sloped, the tunnel must be sloped also
22:30:06  <Amixwoktest> wasnt TTD a competitive game to SimCity 2000
22:30:08  <Bjarni> like which layer to add a signal to
22:30:33  <Bjarni> Amixwoktest: hmmm how do a one man TV channel handle news twice a day?
22:30:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think SC2000 had problems with crossing tunnels
22:31:01  <Bjarni> it had that
22:31:02  <Bjarni> I think
22:31:10  <Bjarni> at least the graphics displayed it as a X
22:31:17  <Bjarni> where the trains could turn
22:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> crossing subway, yes
22:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> but not crossing road tunnels (which had to be straight)
22:34:06  <Bjarni> LOL, some girl from New York bought an iPhone while they were expensive. Apple dropped the price by 40% and gave 0 back to the buyers of the expensive ones... now this girl sues Apple because 0 is not enough. She wants a million
22:36:06  <Bjarni> how can you guy a gadget and then the price is lowered 0 and you get a refund of 0 (which you aren't even entitled to get)... then how can you sue for a million?
22:36:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, she can want whatever she likes, the question is if she gets it
22:36:18  <Bjarni> it's more than "I want my money back"
22:37:56  <Amixwoktest> Bjarni: my channel will have 10 people running the channel when its ready in 2009
22:38:01  <Amixwoktest> thats my goal
22:38:26  <Bjarni> but why try to battle with the news channels?
22:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: that's part of the american way, if you do not demand way beyond your actual rights, you won't get what you actually deserve.
22:38:46  <Amixwoktest> we wont
22:38:53  <Digitalfox> WOW after a little code learning i was able to play with newindustries on OpenTTD and they are looking great, i didn't have any crash and they were looking to work ok :)
22:39:09  <Amixwoktest> and norway have one of smallest tv marked in europe
22:39:20  <Amixwoktest> lots of gaps to be filled
22:39:50  <Bjarni> I wouldn't mind being able to watch this channel
22:39:54  * Bjarni has 3 channels
22:40:09  <Bjarni> well, 3 Danish and 3-4 Swedish channels
22:40:25  <Bjarni> the Swedish channels aren't great though
22:40:41  <Amixwoktest> :)
22:40:57  <Amixwoktest> i have 3 swedish channels and 1 danish channel
22:41:00  <Bjarni> they are in Swedish and they appear to be aimed at.... well not my group
22:41:00  <Amixwoktest> DR1 that is
22:41:09  <Bjarni> funny
22:41:13  <Bjarni> I have DR1 as well
22:41:42  <fjb> Hey, now could watch tv together. :-)
22:41:51  <fjb> you could
22:41:58  <Bjarni> Mondays at 17:30@ DR1: thomas the tank engine
22:42:08  <Bjarni> and it appears to be a new production from 2004
22:42:18  <Bjarni> they started transmitting them today
22:42:31  <Bjarni> it's only 10 minutes though
22:42:33  *** Tobin [~tobin@c58-107-50-36.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
22:42:48  <Amixwoktest> Bjarni: you like trains?
22:42:50  <Amixwoktest> trams?
22:42:54  <Amixwoktest> subways?
22:42:55  <Amixwoktest> :)
22:43:04  <Bjarni> maybe :P
22:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> * Bjarni has 3 channels <- i have like 150 german channels
22:43:36  <Amixwoktest> Scandinavian channels are the best
22:43:44  <Amixwoktest> subtitling instead of dubbing ;)
22:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> and a few others
22:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> like "al jazeera"
22:45:01  <Amixwoktest> Dutch ones subtitle also
22:46:21  <Bjarni> http://www.veterantoget.dk/skildpadde/magasine/2006/nr1_2006.jpg <-- you know, when you deal with stuff like this you have to stay informed
22:47:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ollyhart/3430121/
22:48:02  <Amixwoktest> Bjarni: hehe
22:48:43  <Bjarni> it's actually great fun to put those faces on the locomotives
22:48:57  <Bjarni> and then drive with them
22:49:28  <Amixwoktest> Bjarni: http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_Metro.JPG
22:50:06  <Bjarni> nice
22:50:11  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City106.JPG
22:50:13  <Amixwoktest> :)
22:50:33  <Bjarni> what is this game?
22:50:44  <Bjarni> looks like a tramway
22:51:06  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_Driver7.JPG
22:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> it lacks signals
22:51:14  <Amixwoktest> its TrainZ
22:51:18  <Amixwoktest> :)
22:51:52  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_fromSky_2.JPG
22:51:58  <Bjarni> is it any fun?
22:52:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> that catenary is mounted way too high
22:52:57  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City6.JPG
22:52:58  <Amixwoktest> no
22:53:01  <Amixwoktest> its not a game
22:53:08  <Amixwoktest> more a building simulator
22:53:19  <Amixwoktest> then you can drive
22:53:22  <Amixwoktest> arround
22:53:50  <Bjarni> so there is nothing like a schedule?
22:54:14  *** David_McMahon [~fake@dsl-fixed-77-44-48-144.interdsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:54:28  <Amixwoktest> yes there is
22:54:33  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/PremetroStation.JPG
22:54:38  <Amixwoktest> underground station
22:55:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> these 3D systems usually lack a good way to place parallel tracks
22:55:32  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City13.JPG
22:55:34  <Amixwoktest> metro
22:55:42  <Bjarni> http://www.student.dtu.dk/~s991088/signal.JPEG <-- when it comes to underground railroads, nothing beats this
22:56:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> like in TTT, you could place doubletracks, but you could not attach a parallel track to an existing track
22:56:32  <Amixwoktest> Bjarni: http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City2006map.jpg
22:56:38  <Amixwoktest> map of my system ;)
22:57:08  <Bjarni> Bush...
22:57:17  <Bjarni> you used the wrong tool :P
22:58:17  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_Driver7.JPG
22:58:28  <Amixwoktest> one of the trams in the minitram area
22:58:35  <Amixwoktest> ;)
22:58:41  <Bjarni> you already posted this link once :P
22:59:30  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/towardsbush.JPG
22:59:35  <Amixwoktest> there is the Bush ;)
23:00:04  <Amixwoktest> http://home.powertech.no/micbergs/TrainZ/Bush2City_tracklayout220906.jpg
23:00:09  <Amixwoktest> showing junctions etc
23:05:30  <Bjarni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsj%A6llands_Veterantog <-- it's always fun to find one self when searching for something else :D
23:08:13  <Bjarni> well, I'm not present there personally, but I could have been
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23:09:54  <Bjarni> and then nobody says anything
23:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> we are totally scared by the possibility of seeing you
23:10:50  <Bjarni> but I'm not present in the picture
23:10:58  <Bjarni> I do know two of the people in it though
23:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> öhh... that link is broken
23:11:43  <mcbane> what ya need to do (conditions) to build a bank?
23:11:48  <Bjarni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsj%A6llands_Veterantog
23:11:50  <mcbane> in temperate climate
23:11:50  <Bjarni> hmm
23:11:53  <Bjarni> still broken
23:12:02  <glx> mcbane: minimum population
23:12:02  <Bjarni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsj 3%A6llands_Veterantog
23:12:05  <Bjarni> remove the space
23:12:10  <Bjarni> err
23:12:14  <Bjarni> still broken
23:12:16  <mcbane> world population?
23:12:18  <Bjarni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsj% C3%A6llands_Veterantog
23:12:21  <Bjarni> now
23:12:24  <glx> town population
23:12:28  <Bjarni> remove the space and it should work
23:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> ah, that makes more sense ;)
23:12:33  <Bjarni> stupid IRC :P
23:12:43  <mcbane> glx whats the min? =)
23:12:47  <glx> 1200
23:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> that engine looks weird
23:13:34  <Bjarni> weird?
23:13:41  <Bjarni> what do you mean by weird?
23:13:44  <mcbane> well i have several towns with 3k and it sais cant build there =&
23:15:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> mcbane: tried to build on a house?
23:16:07  <mcbane> nope
23:16:13  <mcbane> i tred to get some space
23:16:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> then that is probably your mistake :p
23:16:23  <mcbane> *tried/in
23:16:39  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: what do you mean by weird?
23:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: difficult to describe
23:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> it has very big windows, compared to its size
23:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, they appear to be very low
23:18:26  <Bjarni> the front or the side?
23:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> if you compare it to german engines... e.g. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR_Baureihe_V_180
23:18:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, the front
23:18:54  <Bjarni> oh you mean like that
23:18:56  <Bjarni> well
23:19:29  <Bjarni> basically this is to make a greenhouse in front to ensure that the driver has a nice and warm spot when it's summer and sunny :P
23:20:20  <Bjarni> actually it's because it's designed to drive at railroads where you don't get anything signalled in advance and it should be good at everything, even the switching yard
23:20:36  <Greyscale> Night all
23:20:46  <Greyscale> sleep good
23:21:38  <Bjarni> I never thought of the front window location as weird
23:22:02  <Bjarni> I know some not so common stuff on the engine, but didn't really think of the window size as one of them
23:22:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, it is asymmetric (only one light)
23:22:29  <Bjarni> it was common to only use two headlights when it was built
23:23:20  <Bjarni> there is no light near the driver because if it was raining, then the tracks would be wet and the designers were scared that the driver was blinded by the reflection of his own lights
23:23:34  <Bjarni> later tests showed that this isn't an issue
23:23:57  <Bjarni> but then it would cost money to add the 3rd light so it never happened
23:25:20  <Bjarni> actually I thought people would notice that the engine room windows are normal passenger car windows
23:25:38  <Bjarni> or at least looks very much like passenger car windows
23:25:53  <Bjarni> the bogies are oversized compared to the chassis size
23:26:01  <Bjarni> stuff like that
23:26:05  <Bjarni> but not the front window
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