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00:17:15 *** cyph3r has quit IRC 00:18:22 *** cyph3r has joined #openttdcoop 01:36:00 *** cyph3r has quit IRC 01:48:39 *** brylie has joined #openttdcoop 01:58:51 *** dada__ has quit IRC 01:58:55 *** dada_ has joined #openttdcoop 02:50:21 *** pugi has quit IRC 03:07:00 *** brylie has quit IRC 03:36:43 *** MinchinWeb has joined #openttdcoop 03:58:55 <Sylf> !password 03:58:55 <PublicServer> Sylf: orgasm 03:59:00 <Sylf> <3 03:59:29 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 03:59:32 <PublicServer> *** Sylf joined the game 04:03:07 <PublicServer> *** Sylf has left the game (leaving) 05:53:18 *** TNepr has joined #openttdcoop 05:55:26 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttdcoop 05:58:20 *** TNepr1 has quit IRC 06:02:52 *** MinchinWeb_ has joined #openttdcoop 06:09:58 *** MinchinWeb has quit IRC 06:12:06 *** MinchinWeb_ has quit IRC 06:21:54 *** Tray has joined #openttdcoop 06:38:13 *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop 06:38:13 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o ODM 06:42:53 *** Razaekel is now known as Guest3419 06:42:53 *** Razaekal has joined #openttdcoop 06:42:53 *** Razaekal is now known as Razaekel 06:45:53 *** Razaekel has quit IRC 06:48:20 *** Guest3419 has quit IRC 06:57:18 *** Maraxus has joined #openttdcoop 07:02:52 *** TNepr has quit IRC 07:37:48 *** Progman has joined #openttdcoop 08:44:49 *** Afdal has joined #openttdcoop 08:44:56 <Afdal> Hello 08:46:15 <Afdal> Can anyone with a lot of knowledge about train pathfinding tell me why using waypoints like this DOESN'T work to balance train input across tracks? http://gyazo.com/6314e50bbfc8fb9566e02dc28dd64917 08:46:16 <Webster> Title: 6314e50bbfc8fb9566e02dc28dd64917.png (at gyazo.com) 08:47:39 <Afdal> I don't understand why such a hard bias for one track would still exist when the waypoints are equally spaced from the merge with the same penalties between them 08:48:38 <Afdal> The train on the middle track is joining either of the two outer tracks 08:52:29 <Maraxus> do you have a larger picture with where the train is going to from there? 08:53:17 <Afdal> It passes through many other merges on its way to a factory drop 08:53:51 <Afdal> And interestingly, WITHOUT the waypoint solution, trains preferred the bottom track 08:54:04 <Afdal> but with it they always choose the top track when given the choice 08:54:33 <Maraxus> and you didn't make any other changes that the waypoint? 08:54:34 <Afdal> I just wanna know why this doesn't work. It seems like it really should D:< 08:54:41 <Afdal> yep, no other changes 08:55:20 <Afdal> You can add tons of different penalties on either track after the waypoints by the way and that won't affect anything 08:56:03 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 08:57:34 <Maraxus> well it's a bit hard to come to any conclusion when I can't see the whole network, but afaik you can't balance load with waypoints 08:57:56 <Afdal> You can do this for example http://gyazo.com/270fbaee9e312d28370e146a451b7137 08:57:57 <Webster> Title: 270fbaee9e312d28370e146a451b7137.png (at gyazo.com) 08:58:12 <Afdal> And they'll still choose that top track every single time when given the choice 08:58:29 <Afdal> That's why I'm saying it won't help you to know what the rest of the network looks like 09:00:11 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttdcoop 09:00:16 <Afdal> Do trains pick a particular first based on map direction when going through their algorithm to decide what the best path is between two options with equal penalties? 09:00:22 <Maraxus> well - how many tiles from that place to the station if you choose shortest path going through upper and lower waypoint? 09:00:23 <Afdal> particular path* 09:00:33 *** Dom_ has joined #openttdcoop 09:00:58 <Afdal> Well like I said without those waypoints 09:01:07 <Afdal> trains instead choose the bottom track all the time 09:01:24 <Afdal> That's how I know it doesn't have anything to do with pathfinding after them 09:02:05 <Afdal> oh do you mean tiles from the waypoints themselves? 09:02:07 <Afdal> hmmm 09:03:44 <Dom_> !password 09:03:44 <PublicServer> Dom_: roping 09:03:50 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 09:03:52 <PublicServer> *** Dom joined the game 09:03:56 <Afdal> I guess the top waypoint is physically two tiles closer to the station label... 09:04:52 <Afdal> Do vehicles choose between shared station/waypoint slots based on the closest ones to their next destination? 09:04:58 <Maraxus> !password 09:04:58 <PublicServer> Maraxus: roping 09:05:33 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 09:05:34 <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 09:05:36 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus joined the game 09:05:41 <PublicServer> <Dom> morning :) 09:05:47 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi 09:06:51 <Afdal> No that couldn't be it 09:07:04 <Afdal> I've got another example on this same map that would disprove that 09:09:43 <Tray> Trains choose their direction based on penalties so (even if the two path's penalities are the same) trains choose one track and since all trains use the same algorythm they all choose the same track 09:10:03 <Afdal> http://gyazo.com/31785b664dfe9500d25c4975224f129c 09:10:04 <Webster> Title: 31785b664dfe9500d25c4975224f129c.png (at gyazo.com) 09:10:16 <Tray> the waypoints change the behaviour of trains at the split, because trains only see penalties until their next order 09:10:26 <Afdal> yeah that's what I thought 09:10:35 <Afdal> So what's makes them prefer one waypoint over the other? 09:11:58 <Tray> I did not dive into the code but I think it just chooses the first possible solution if their all equal, mostly that results into some direction based dependency 09:12:33 <Afdal> yeah that's also what I've been thinking 09:12:44 <Afdal> however, looking at my two examples, 09:12:55 <Afdal> one of them preferred the top track 09:13:03 <Afdal> while the other preferred the bottom track 09:13:14 <Afdal> one left, the other right 09:13:35 <Tray> Well, for obvious reasons: they are not 09:13:51 <Afdal> not what? 09:13:57 <Tray> I'm sorry for the last comment. 09:14:01 <Afdal> :o 09:14:30 <Tray> My best guess is that they tend to choose the right path first 09:14:38 <Afdal> b-b-but 09:14:52 <Afdal> it chose the left one on my other example :( 09:14:56 <Tray> I mean the right corner of the map 09:15:11 <Afdal> top-right corner? 09:15:31 <Tray> you're right there is no right corner (: 09:16:10 <Afdal> hmm, that might just be it 09:16:17 <Tray> but I think you get the point, I think the preference is based on a map based position of the track and not related to the direction of the train 09:16:29 <Afdal> they prefer the eastern-most option when all things are the same 09:16:47 <Afdal> well northeaster-most 09:16:50 <Afdal> whatever 09:17:10 <Afdal> I dunno... 09:17:33 <Afdal> Yeah I get what you're saying but I'm not seeing it in those two examples of mine... 09:17:59 <Afdal> yeah okay it wouldn't be the northeasternmost 09:18:04 <Afdal> just the easternmost... 09:18:07 <Tray> I try to explain: 09:18:18 <Tray> From the split you draw an arrow to the right side 09:18:25 <Tray> trains choose that direction 09:18:37 <Afdal> ah yeah 09:18:40 <Afdal> right at the split 09:18:45 <Afdal> now I see it 09:19:00 <Afdal> very interesting if I true 09:19:06 <Afdal> I wonder if there's a western bias as well 09:20:08 <Tray> if you're interested in splits, V wrote an article about them some time ago 09:21:05 <Tray> http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/03/25/advanced-building-revue-02-splits/ 09:22:08 <Afdal> Yeah I've read that actually 09:22:14 <Afdal> I don't want to use logic to solve this though 09:22:26 <Afdal> logic constructions 09:23:03 <Afdal> I guess I'm gonna have to stick with balancing with penalties on a by-merge basis 09:23:03 *** Jam35 has joined #openttdcoop 09:25:52 *** Tray has quit IRC 09:29:06 <Afdal> hmm 09:29:25 <Afdal> This time trains prefer the bottom path http://gyazo.com/3b5813669db46ff1d8488e288f894e45 09:29:26 <Webster> Title: 3b5813669db46ff1d8488e288f894e45.png (at gyazo.com) 09:29:34 *** valhallasw has joined #openttdcoop 09:35:11 <Afdal> And finally this one http://gyazo.com/8fada413828340e3fc581475582078b9 09:35:12 <Webster> Title: 8fada413828340e3fc581475582078b9.png (at gyazo.com) 09:35:52 <Afdal> So maybe it chooses a path when all penalties are equal based on whichever path at the fork points closest to east 09:36:55 <Afdal> north and south being closer than west... 09:39:09 <PublicServer> <Dom> hm i dont like the location for cow goods drop. 09:39:23 <PublicServer> <Dom> its too near to the cow goods pick 09:39:24 *** Jake has joined #openttdcoop 09:40:45 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> and the problem is? 09:41:23 <PublicServer> <Dom> they are too close together 09:48:43 <Afdal> Nope, that hypothesis doesn't quite seem to be it either http://gyazo.com/d6c017b686b6c7193356e9e31ede3cc4 09:48:44 <Webster> Title: d6c017b686b6c7193356e9e31ede3cc4.png (at gyazo.com) 09:49:05 <Afdal> in that example it prefers the west split instead of the north 09:54:47 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 joined the game 09:54:48 <PublicServer> <Jam35> hi 09:54:54 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi 09:54:55 <PublicServer> <Dom> morning jam :) 09:55:25 <PublicServer> <Jam35> (yawns) 09:55:51 <PublicServer> <Jam35> ...no reflection on the game btw 10:12:17 <PublicServer> <Jam35> signal gap at ore drop exit 10:12:36 <PublicServer> <Dom> where? 10:12:42 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined company #1 10:12:47 *** pugi has joined #openttdcoop 10:13:08 <PublicServer> <Dom> oh thanks :) 10:13:11 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined spectators 10:13:32 <PublicServer> <Jam35> you would have noticed sooner or later :) 10:13:42 <PublicServer> <Dom> :) maybe 10:21:45 <Afdal> http://gyazo.com/1fcf363846b6f78933cd217f99513029 @_@ 10:21:46 <Webster> Title: 1fcf363846b6f78933cd217f99513029.png (at gyazo.com) 10:26:47 <PublicServer> <Dom> gtgo 10:26:49 <PublicServer> <Dom> bb 10:26:53 <PublicServer> *** Dom has left the game (leaving) 10:26:53 <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players) 10:26:54 *** Dom_ has quit IRC 10:26:55 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> cu 10:27:13 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined company #1 10:27:13 <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 10:27:53 *** Progman has quit IRC 10:35:01 <V453000> Afdal: trains will always prefer some part 10:35:26 <V453000> the purpose of a "balancing" is not to "balance" traffic. The purpose is to detect which ever line is free and join there 10:35:43 <Afdal> well in my case it is to balance traffic 10:35:47 <Afdal> anyway that's beside the point 10:35:47 <V453000> no, never 10:35:51 <Afdal> Yes, now 10:36:04 <V453000> then it is not balancing but flipflop 10:36:05 <Afdal> I just want to know why 10:36:20 <V453000> well simply every track has some penalty value 10:36:29 <V453000> obviously always one of them has to be the "least penalty" 10:36:34 <V453000> even when they seem similar/same 10:36:42 <Afdal> Did you see http://gyazo.com/1fcf363846b6f78933cd217f99513029 10:36:43 <Webster> Title: 1fcf363846b6f78933cd217f99513029.png (at gyazo.com) 10:36:44 <V453000> just code-wise. The train always has to decide only one track 10:36:45 <V453000> yes 10:36:48 <Afdal> That doesn'te ven make sense @_@ 10:37:13 <V453000> if you looked in the code it would probably make sense 10:37:29 <V453000> some rotations/directions are prefered 10:37:36 <Afdal> Well someone who knows the code has some 'splaining to do D:< 10:37:39 <V453000> they have to be, every pathfinding result has to be unique 10:37:53 <V453000> train cant remain "undecisive" 10:38:01 <V453000> there is always just one result where the train goes 10:38:14 <Afdal> yes yes I get all that 10:38:27 <Afdal> I just want to know why these particular situations occur with waypoints 10:39:01 <Afdal> I thought it was some directional preference when other things are equal but that doesn't seem to be the case now 10:39:07 <V453000> some detail in the code. I havent seen the code myself so I have no idea, but it isnt important 10:39:20 <Afdal> It is to me 10:39:22 <V453000> there are many wtf things you can make with such trains 10:39:49 <V453000> how is that important? you can always just add penalty to one or the other track and make them choose forcibly 10:39:56 <V453000> or, with preference 10:40:00 <Afdal> Because I wanna know D:< 10:40:25 <V453000> not sure if that is a good approach in this case but well, I cant help you with that 10:40:55 <V453000> I would just suggest living with the tested results 10:41:01 <Afdal> I can't 10:41:03 <Afdal> Imma die 10:41:16 <V453000> k :d 10:42:09 <Afdal> also do waypoints outside orders have the same pathfinding penalty as stations? 10:42:13 <V453000> just pick the purpose what you need to build and concentrate on that 10:42:22 <V453000> no, I dont think they do 10:42:29 <Afdal> Do they have any penalty? 10:42:44 <V453000> test it :) I dont think they do 10:43:22 <Afdal> Doesn't seem like they do 10:50:49 <V453000> !password 10:50:49 <PublicServer> V453000: swings 10:51:00 <PublicServer> *** V453000 joined the game 10:51:08 <PublicServer> <V453000> hi :) 10:51:15 <PublicServer> <Jam35> hiya 10:51:17 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi V 10:51:27 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined spectators 10:51:53 <PublicServer> <V453000> by the way, the layout of stations isnt based on distance, distance is just a side effect 10:52:09 <PublicServer> <V453000> the main point is to attempt using the network everywhere, with a well split traffic 10:52:36 <PublicServer> <V453000> that most of them are far from each other is just to generate equal traffic on all of that path 10:52:46 <PublicServer> <V453000> not to make profit 10:57:54 <V453000> Afdal: I have looked further in the discussion ... if you want to make a merger on the network, let them do it without the waypoints. You cant be suprised that they pick a wrong path if they go to the waypoint, not to the destination. Also, if you want to truly "balance" traffic like a 50:50 split, then waypoints indeed arent the way to go as Maraxus pointed out. Of course waypoints could be a part of something like flipflop, but there has 10:59:18 *** cyph3r has joined #openttdcoop 11:01:27 *** Jake has quit IRC 11:01:27 *** Afdal has quit IRC 11:01:27 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 11:01:54 <PublicServer> *** Amm1er joined the game 11:02:06 <PublicServer> <Jam35> what's up with the prio over bridge MSH08 North? 11:02:24 <PublicServer> <Jam35> Dom's not here 11:03:46 <PublicServer> <V453000> that is a proken prio as I call it Jam35 11:03:48 <PublicServer> <V453000> scientific term 11:04:13 *** Afdal has joined #openttdcoop 11:04:14 *** Maraxus has joined #openttdcoop 11:04:35 <PublicServer> <Jam35> fair enough :) 11:05:09 <PublicServer> <V453000> now it is not-so-broken-anymore 11:05:10 *** Jake_ has joined #openttdcoop 11:05:23 <PublicServer> <Jam35> yay :) 11:07:10 <PublicServer> <V453000> Ammler ther is no reason for that bad split ;) 11:07:21 <PublicServer> <V453000> esp with the 2ways which are necessary it cant be done this way 11:07:40 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> well, there was a missing doulble sign 11:07:54 <PublicServer> <V453000> where 11:08:01 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> end of bridge 11:08:07 <PublicServer> <V453000> hm 11:08:10 <PublicServer> <V453000> well still 11:08:24 <PublicServer> <V453000> if both bridges get red, this will make a detour to the right 11:08:30 *** Jake_ is now known as Jake 11:08:34 <PublicServer> <V453000> should keep this 11:09:00 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> if you want waiting space for the bridge, then you would need more han one tile 11:09:07 <PublicServer> <V453000> nono it isnt about waiting space 11:09:17 <PublicServer> <V453000> it is that if trains pick the path to the north once, they have to do it 11:09:31 <PublicServer> <V453000> wee 11:09:33 <PublicServer> <V453000> see 11:09:44 <PublicServer> <V453000> this cant happen 11:09:50 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> also the other joiner is missing prios 11:09:52 <PublicServer> <V453000> mpw ot camt 11:10:10 <PublicServer> <V453000> trains wait now 11:10:20 <PublicServer> <V453000> because they chose before seeing the 2ways 11:10:26 <PublicServer> <V453000> see the point? 11:10:28 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> don't get you 11:10:50 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> you wanted trains to use east, if norht is blocked? 11:10:52 <PublicServer> <V453000> train chooses whether to go to A or B 11:10:54 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> that didn't work 11:10:56 <PublicServer> <V453000> no I dont 11:11:15 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> yo your change is useless 11:11:17 <PublicServer> <V453000> if train wants to go to A and both bridges are full, it must wait for a free bridge 11:11:27 <PublicServer> <V453000> not split to B 11:11:37 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> ah ok 11:11:39 <PublicServer> <V453000> which happens if it chooses at the same time to both A/bridges/B 11:11:49 <PublicServer> <V453000> does it make some sense now? 11:11:55 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> you want the opposite 11:12:09 <PublicServer> <V453000> I want no detours just because of jammed bridges, is all 11:12:47 <PublicServer> <V453000> now when the decision point is separate from the bridges, steel trains always go to the bridges even when the bridge is full 11:13:05 <PublicServer> <V453000> ye 11:13:07 <PublicServer> <V453000> exactly :) 11:13:29 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> pen 11:13:39 <PublicServer> <V453000> ? 11:14:01 <PublicServer> <V453000> its a 2way penalties wont do much 11:14:01 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> didn't expect the pf to chose that way so quick 11:14:07 <PublicServer> <V453000> 2way signals :) 11:14:26 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> on the other side, it could also be good if that happens 11:14:26 <PublicServer> <V453000> the 2way signals are needed because first bridges are a lot shorter than the tunnels behind them 11:14:47 <PublicServer> <V453000> nah detours arent really a solution, just hiding the problem 11:14:59 <PublicServer> <V453000> the cargo transported rate will decrease anyway 11:15:37 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> well, you could also see it as "balancing" 11:16:39 <PublicServer> <V453000> no not really 11:17:01 <PublicServer> <V453000> it would just move the trains to another part of the map which would require drastically higher amount of trains to keep the cargo transported 11:17:15 <PublicServer> <V453000> and trains would still return by the original path 11:17:33 <PublicServer> <V453000> I see you adjusting the merger, just merge at one point always, not at 2 11:17:39 <PublicServer> <V453000> not to mention that combo signals are bad :p 11:18:03 <PublicServer> <V453000> better merge at A+B instead of A and B separately 11:18:53 <PublicServer> <V453000> similar to the other side 11:18:55 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> I don't like waiting trains 11:19:13 <PublicServer> <V453000> then make no or a short prio and they wont wait for long if ever 11:19:41 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> well, with choser that is 11:20:11 <PublicServer> <V453000> it is also an option to make a PBS there if you expect small traffic from the lines which give prio 11:20:13 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> but with such long joiner, trains can't chose 11:20:13 <PublicServer> <V453000> like 11:20:43 <PublicServer> <V453000> now both options are directly seen 11:20:49 <PublicServer> <V453000> also with the results of the prio 11:20:55 <PublicServer> <V453000> so if one prio is red, trains wont go there 11:21:03 <PublicServer> <V453000> or, will go preferably to the green one if there is such 11:21:41 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> yes, but there is still a way to go when they chosed 11:21:43 <PublicServer> <V453000> I just do not use it at BBH mergers because it could break with a bit higher traffic. In station entrances it works perfect 11:21:53 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> with direct join, if green, they join 11:21:55 <PublicServer> <V453000> yes but that doesnt matter 11:22:01 <PublicServer> <V453000> if the line was once green, it will be green again soon probably 11:22:23 <PublicServer> <V453000> also the direct join works a lot on probability that the gap on the ML is there _JUST_ when they are passing the signal 11:22:29 <PublicServer> <V453000> that is really dangerous and not really effective 11:24:48 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> Well, the idea of PublicServer game is also to see such issues and then fix it :-P 11:25:31 <PublicServer> <V453000> valid point but it isnt nice to see issues all the time, and also people usually learn from their mistakes :p 11:26:05 <PublicServer> <V453000> the combo signal join is typical for old-thinking people 11:26:19 <PublicServer> <V453000> doesnt really happen today, people just do a retarded PBS X and done 11:27:02 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> like my east join? 11:27:08 <PublicServer> <V453000> yes :) 11:27:14 <PublicServer> <V453000> systematically it is done well 11:27:20 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> that is ugly I know :-D 11:27:26 <PublicServer> <V453000> but if you made those little bits better, it would work well, too 11:27:44 <PublicServer> <V453000> like these 11:28:12 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> which "these"? 11:28:22 <PublicServer> <V453000> making space :) 11:28:44 <PublicServer> <V453000> see, the lines joined are still the same 11:29:06 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> can you change bridge settings in game? 11:29:16 <PublicServer> <V453000> unfortunately not, I will soon though 11:29:42 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> max length? 11:29:48 <PublicServer> <V453000> yes 11:30:15 <PublicServer> <V453000> now it works well Ammler 11:30:24 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> oh no 11:30:31 <PublicServer> <V453000> it is the same as yours, but with correct waiting bays 11:30:37 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> you made a boring joiner on my north? 11:30:43 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> there was no pbs there 11:31:09 <PublicServer> <V453000> no PBS but there was the combo join again and chaotic joins to the other line - not in one spot 11:31:31 <PublicServer> <V453000> if trains from one direction join first, the other direction will have a lot harder time joining 11:31:45 <PublicServer> <V453000> which results in a sort of priority of joining lines 11:31:55 <PublicServer> <V453000> (you want to treat those lines equally) 11:32:06 <PublicServer> <V453000> the PBS is just a joke I wont touch on that :p 11:32:20 <PublicServer> <V453000> I do that sort of PBS mess myself sometimes, but usually when expanding. 11:32:55 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> there is no traffic that way anyway 11:33:14 <PublicServer> <V453000> atm :) 11:33:49 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> are all stations done? 11:33:59 <PublicServer> <V453000> yes we just need primaries 11:34:09 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> slhs 11:34:11 <PublicServer> <V453000> at SLH 04 for example 11:34:25 <PublicServer> <V453000> those too, one near Flonwood for example 11:34:44 <PublicServer> <V453000> one next to SLH 12 would be useful too 11:36:23 <PublicServer> <V453000> build some if you want :p 11:37:09 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> prodcution 0, does that mean, the industry will die? 11:37:20 <V453000> I think so 11:37:38 <PublicServer> <V453000> unless it is constructing 11:39:26 <PublicServer> <V453000> savior :D 11:40:16 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> I should have a mouse 11:40:40 <PublicServer> <V453000> :D helps 11:41:26 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> does passenger on oil rigs have effect on oil production? 11:41:45 <PublicServer> <V453000> nope 11:42:03 <PublicServer> <V453000> it is like a farm, 2 separate cargoes 11:54:00 <PublicServer> <V453000> omg Ammler :D 11:54:38 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> should I have made pipe? 11:54:49 <PublicServer> <V453000> the signalling is worse :D 11:54:57 <PublicServer> <V453000> TF to catch a rig is fine 12:07:41 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> how do you full load on stations without order? 12:07:55 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> do you still need to stockpile? 12:08:09 <PublicServer> <V453000> you mean things like SRNW stations? 12:08:12 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> yes 12:08:22 <PublicServer> <V453000> mostly dummy trains 12:08:28 <PublicServer> <V453000> but there are various ways to do that 12:09:10 <V453000> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_Stations_-_Special_Cases most if not all general options should be here 12:09:52 <V453000> note that another option of that sort of thing is an overflow 12:11:36 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> hmm, no example to make something small 12:12:22 <PublicServer> <V453000> something small is overflow - self regulation for one station 12:12:48 <PublicServer> <V453000> SRNW in general is better for many stations ... of course you can also make a transfer into one station 12:12:50 <PublicServer> <V453000> and self regulate that one 12:14:24 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> nobody yet fixed the issue that debot "autotrack" their entry with useless tacks 12:14:59 <PublicServer> <V453000> what do you mean 12:15:03 <PublicServer> <V453000> ah that 12:15:13 <PublicServer> <V453000> well some dumb settings dont have them as useless :p 12:17:21 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> you didn't add many station grfs 12:17:35 <PublicServer> <V453000> simple game :) 12:17:45 <PublicServer> <V453000> I normally add more 12:17:55 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> why not always all? 12:18:33 <PublicServer> <V453000> feels messy but idk, doesnt really matter that much to me 12:20:43 <PublicServer> <Jam35> I see a broken priority 12:20:46 <PublicServer> <Amm1er> oh, you still can't modify station if train is on it 12:21:10 <PublicServer> <Jam35> uh-oh Dom again! might have known :D 12:21:29 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined company #1 12:21:33 <PublicServer> <V453000> yeah, but you can modify signals when train is on it 12:21:39 <PublicServer> <V453000> would be nice if you could modify station too 12:23:06 <PublicServer> <Jam35> see !this ...not sure how to fix atm 12:23:28 <PublicServer> <Jam35> move tracks... 12:25:11 <PublicServer> <V453000> almost there 12:25:59 <PublicServer> <Jam35> ok that works! :) 12:26:33 <PublicServer> <V453000> or even that 12:27:59 <PublicServer> <Jam35> yes much nicer 12:28:37 <PublicServer> <V453000> in fact the solution could be a lot simplier 12:30:07 <PublicServer> <V453000> how about that 12:32:54 <PublicServer> <Jam35> seemed faster before? or just me 12:34:03 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined spectators 12:36:20 *** makjes has joined #openttdcoop 12:37:24 <PublicServer> *** makjes joined the game 12:40:59 <PublicServer> <V453000> no way it could have been faster 12:41:09 <PublicServer> <V453000> firstly it was longer choice 12:41:31 <PublicServer> <V453000> secondly there were tunnels which could possibly reduce the throughput (which they probably didnt) 12:41:39 <PublicServer> <V453000> prio could be longer 12:41:55 <PublicServer> <Jam35> seemed like there were less waiting trains...just my impression 12:42:21 <PublicServer> *** Amm1er has left the game (leaving) 12:42:25 <PublicServer> <V453000> well there arent really any waiting trains atm 12:49:45 <PublicServer> *** makjes has left the game (leaving) 12:50:05 *** Dom_ has joined #openttdcoop 12:53:10 <PublicServer> *** V453000 has left the game (leaving) 12:53:10 <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players) 12:55:42 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has joined spectators 12:57:23 *** makjes has quit IRC 13:02:36 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 13:02:38 <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC joined the game 13:02:42 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has joined company #1 13:02:42 <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 13:03:56 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> hmm, trains :D 13:05:06 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> wow 13:05:12 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> someone is really pbs happy 13:05:22 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> see !who? 13:05:56 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> a few pbs signal 13:06:18 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> everything is pbs :o 13:08:27 <V453000> guess who :) 13:08:28 <V453000> Ammler 13:08:36 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> :/ 13:08:55 *** Dom_ has quit IRC 13:12:31 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> why are there so many trains waiting in front of stations everywhere :/ 13:14:31 <V453000> because it is a huge problem to have them there. 13:16:09 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> well, it wastes trains in the train limit 13:16:16 <V453000> yeah, disaster 13:16:20 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> might as well have just one or two trains waiting in stead of 10 13:16:22 <V453000> not arguing about this again 13:16:34 <PublicServer> <XeryusTC> so they can be used by other stations when we hit the limit... 13:20:01 <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has left the game (connection lost) 13:20:01 <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players) 13:23:53 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined company #1 13:23:53 <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 13:48:12 *** ODM has quit IRC 13:51:02 *** Jerik has joined #openttdcoop 13:52:20 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> im off for a bit - cu 13:52:23 <PublicServer> <Jam35> bfn 13:52:33 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has left the game (leaving) 13:52:33 <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players) 13:52:33 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined spectators 13:52:53 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has left the game (leaving) 16:30:24 *** BenJTotterdell has joined #openttdcoop 16:30:57 <BenJTotterdell> !password 16:30:57 <PublicServer> BenJTotterdell: teaing 16:31:04 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 16:31:06 <PublicServer> *** BenTotterdell joined the game 16:36:56 <PublicServer> *** BenTotterdell has left the game (leaving) 17:20:11 *** TNepr has joined #openttdcoop 17:20:45 *** TNepr1 has joined #openttdcoop 17:21:02 *** TNepr1 has left #openttdcoop 17:28:13 *** TNepr has quit IRC 18:13:18 *** Jerik has quit IRC 18:15:25 *** Jerik has joined #openttdcoop 18:23:42 *** Afdal has quit IRC 18:44:41 *** Jake is now known as Jake|afk 18:45:42 *** MinchinWeb_ has joined #openttdcoop 18:53:08 *** Dom_ has joined #openttdcoop 18:57:22 <Maraxus> !password 18:57:22 <PublicServer> Maraxus: teaing 18:57:35 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 18:57:37 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus joined the game 18:57:59 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 18:58:01 <PublicServer> *** BenTotterdell joined the game 18:58:06 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has joined company #1 18:58:06 <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 18:58:14 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi 18:58:21 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> hi 19:02:45 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> looks like we have our first jam 19:02:51 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> indeed 19:07:22 <Ammler> !update 19:07:22 <PublicServer> Ammler: Update starting... 19:10:27 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 joined the game 19:10:31 <PublicServer> <Jam35> hi 19:10:38 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi 19:10:41 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> hi 19:12:22 <PublicServer> Update done: OpenTTD r24634 (run !install) 19:20:14 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> any ideas? 3rd line? 19:20:36 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> yep think thats the solution 19:21:02 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> through BBH 08 to BBH03 19:24:15 <Dom_> !password 19:24:15 <PublicServer> Dom_: alases 19:24:25 <PublicServer> *** Dom joined the game 19:24:29 <PublicServer> <Dom> hi :) 19:24:34 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi 19:24:35 <PublicServer> <Jam35> hi Dom 19:31:32 <PublicServer> <Dom> anyone building ? 19:31:46 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> the 3rd line? 19:31:53 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> I don't really fancy it tbh 19:32:03 <PublicServer> <Dom> 3rd ? where? 19:39:07 <PublicServer> <Dom> hmm 19:39:22 <PublicServer> <Dom> do you think be letting trains exit both ways 19:39:24 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> what are those signals for? 19:39:31 <PublicServer> <Dom> is gonna jam somewhere else? 19:39:49 <PublicServer> <Dom> its a pf trap 19:40:11 <PublicServer> <BenTotterdell> hmm ok 19:41:34 <PublicServer> *** BenTotterdell has left the game (leaving) 19:41:35 *** BenJTotterdell has quit IRC 19:42:45 *** Afdal has joined #openttdcoop 19:43:03 <Afdal> Hello can anyone help me with fail-safe merges 19:43:14 <PublicServer> <Dom> kind of 19:43:38 <Afdal> Has to do with the two-way entry signal 19:43:52 <PublicServer> <Dom> ok and after that a penalty 19:44:04 <Afdal> I don't know how it happened, but at some point I arbitrarily started putting it half a tile closer to the merge 19:44:09 <Afdal> And I just cannot figure out why 19:44:38 <PublicServer> <Dom> ok and where may be the problem? does it work? 19:44:44 <PublicServer> <Jam35> bfn 19:44:46 <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has left the game (leaving) 19:44:51 <Afdal> I'm not sure, let me make a picture 19:44:57 <PublicServer> <Dom> ok 19:45:19 <PublicServer> <Dom> well does a train go into the line it should merge if there is no train ? 19:45:25 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has joined spectators 19:45:25 <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players) 19:45:31 <PublicServer> <Dom> oh 19:45:46 <Afdal> yeah they -seem- to work the same 19:45:55 <Afdal> just wait a moment 19:45:57 <Maraxus> were you building anything? 19:46:29 <PublicServer> <Dom> Maraxus: not really atm but wanted to start a shl but okey maybe later then :) 19:47:18 <Afdal> Here http://gyazo.com/2a97a55c7fda7636693b57bfe0d980b3 19:47:19 <Webster> Title: 2a97a55c7fda7636693b57bfe0d980b3.png (at gyazo.com) 19:47:22 <Afdal> Subtle difference right? 19:47:23 <Maraxus> I'll be back in 20 - can stay in game if you want to build 19:47:34 <Afdal> The top version is how I used to do them, bottom is how I do them now 19:47:54 <Afdal> I can't for the life of me figure out what made me decide to start putting the entry signal closer to the split 19:48:15 <PublicServer> <Dom> idk but if it works it doesnt matter right? 19:48:27 <Afdal> yeah, but I just wanna be sure 19:48:34 <Afdal> Is there really no difference at all between the two? 19:50:16 <PublicServer> <Dom> why should it be ? the signal gets turns the colors the same way or? 19:50:53 <Afdal> Maybe they fail-safe doesn't work right if the two-way signal is too close??? 19:51:16 <PublicServer> <Dom> hmm 19:51:18 <PublicServer> <Dom> never thought of that 19:54:15 <Afdal> a-ha! 19:54:17 <Afdal> It doesn't 19:54:26 <Afdal> ugh, so I've been doing it wrong this whole time 19:54:28 <PublicServer> <Dom> well than changed it back 19:54:46 <Afdal> What a terrible habit to accidentally pick up :( 19:55:00 <PublicServer> <Dom> happens to the best :D 20:00:52 <PublicServer> *** Dom has left the game (leaving) 20:09:18 *** Jerik has quit IRC 20:10:09 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has joined company #1 20:13:25 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has left the game (leaving) 20:15:04 *** Afdal has left #openttdcoop 20:19:25 *** valhallasw has quit IRC 20:29:41 *** valhallasw has joined #openttdcoop 20:41:21 *** Dom__ has joined #openttdcoop 20:41:21 *** Dom_ has quit IRC 20:41:21 *** Dom__ is now known as Dom_ 20:48:20 *** Dom__ has joined #openttdcoop 20:48:20 *** Dom_ has quit IRC 20:48:21 *** Dom__ is now known as Dom_ 20:51:57 *** Jam35 has quit IRC 21:01:24 *** dwarf has joined #openttdcoop 21:01:29 <dwarf> !password 21:01:29 <PublicServer> dwarf: jailed 21:01:48 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 21:01:50 <PublicServer> *** dwarf joined the game 21:01:56 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 21:01:56 <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 21:01:58 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus joined the game 21:03:05 *** MinchinWeb_ has quit IRC 21:03:33 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:13:52 *** Steven has joined #openttdcoop 21:14:00 <Steven> !password 21:14:00 <PublicServer> Steven: jailed 21:14:23 <PublicServer> *** Steven joined the game 21:19:26 *** Dom__ has joined #openttdcoop 21:19:26 *** Dom_ has quit IRC 21:19:26 *** Dom__ is now known as Dom_ 21:21:50 *** Dom__ has joined #openttdcoop 21:21:50 *** Dom_ has quit IRC 21:21:50 *** Dom__ is now known as Dom_ 21:22:05 <Dom_> !password 21:22:05 <PublicServer> Dom_: squeal 21:22:05 <Dom_> # 21:22:16 <PublicServer> *** Dom joined the game 21:22:23 <PublicServer> <Dom> hello agian :) 21:22:27 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi 21:22:29 <PublicServer> <dwarf> hi 21:22:35 <PublicServer> <Steven> hi 21:24:13 <PublicServer> <Dom> some1 building? 21:24:31 <PublicServer> <dwarf> just thinking of adding some primaries 21:24:55 <PublicServer> <Dom> than add another slh :) 21:25:01 <PublicServer> <Steven> I'm adding a farm 21:25:52 <PublicServer> <dwarf> MSH 02 is jamming... 21:26:26 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> all the way to slh02 at times 21:28:20 <PublicServer> <dwarf> maybe a 3rd is in order 21:28:34 <PublicServer> <Dom> go ahead :) 21:28:41 <PublicServer> <Dom> i'll make my slh first 21:28:55 <PublicServer> <Dom> if you do a third kill the pf trap! 21:29:33 <PublicServer> *** Steven has left the game (general timeout) 21:29:33 <PublicServer> *** Steven has left the game (connection lost) 21:36:34 <Steven> !password 21:36:34 <PublicServer> Steven: parser 21:36:56 <PublicServer> *** Steven joined the game 21:37:10 <PublicServer> <Dom> Steven: can you pls sign the stuff your building! 21:37:28 <PublicServer> <Steven> the game crashed on me, sorry 21:37:34 <PublicServer> <Dom> np :) 21:42:07 *** Dom__ has joined #openttdcoop 21:42:07 *** Dom_ has quit IRC 21:42:07 *** Dom__ is now known as Dom_ 21:50:14 <Ammler> !playercount 21:50:14 <PublicServer> Ammler: Number of players: 4 (0 spectators) 22:04:12 <PublicServer> *** Dom has left the game (general timeout) 22:04:12 <PublicServer> *** Dom has left the game (connection lost) 22:04:17 *** Dom_ has quit IRC 22:04:17 *** Dom__ has joined #openttdcoop 22:07:54 <Ammler> !players 22:07:57 <PublicServer> Ammler: Client 148 (Orange) is dwarf, in company 1 (Gatston Transport) 22:07:57 <PublicServer> Ammler: Client 150 (Orange) is Maraxus, in company 1 (Gatston Transport) 22:07:57 <PublicServer> Ammler: Client 158 (Orange) is Steven, in company 1 (Gatston Transport) 22:14:58 <PublicServer> <Maraxus> gn 22:15:20 <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has left the game (leaving) 22:15:25 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 22:28:44 *** TNepr has joined #openttdcoop 22:51:28 *** TNepr1 has joined #openttdcoop 22:53:11 <V453000> !password 22:53:11 <PublicServer> V453000: mildew 22:53:26 <PublicServer> <V453000> hi 22:53:26 <PublicServer> *** V453000 joined the game 22:53:28 <PublicServer> <dwarf> hi 22:53:30 <PublicServer> <Steven> hi 22:56:45 *** TNepr has quit IRC 23:05:22 <PublicServer> *** dwarf has joined spectators 23:05:42 <PublicServer> *** V453000 has left the game (leaving) 23:05:42 <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players) 23:05:54 <PublicServer> *** Steven has left the game (leaving) 23:05:59 <PublicServer> *** dwarf has left the game (leaving) 23:08:48 *** Steven has quit IRC 23:12:35 *** valhallasw has quit IRC 23:16:07 *** dwarf has quit IRC 23:18:12 *** Jasperthecat1 has joined #openttdcoop 23:22:22 *** Jasperthecat1 has quit IRC 23:22:30 *** Jerik has joined #openttdcoop 23:24:13 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 23:24:14 <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC joined the game 23:25:57 <XeryusTC> !unpause 23:25:57 <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has unpaused the server. (Use !auto to set it back.) 23:25:59 <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players) 23:35:47 <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has enabled autopause mode. 23:35:49 <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players) 23:35:49 <PublicServer> *** XeryusTC has left the game (leaving) 23:49:27 <Ammler> !install 23:49:59 <PublicServer> Ammler: install done, please run !restart 23:50:03 <Ammler> !restart 23:50:03 <PublicServer> Ammler: Restart scheduled, will be initiated in next minute! 23:51:01 <PublicServer> Scheduled quit for automated maintenance... will be back shortely 23:51:01 <PublicServer> Thank you for playing r24625. 23:51:06 <PublicServer> Server has exited 23:51:07 *** PublicServer has quit IRC 23:51:22 *** PublicServer has joined #openttdcoop 23:51:22 <PublicServer> Autopilot engaged 23:51:22 <PublicServer> Loading savegame: '#openttdcoop - The Public Server (www.openttdcoop.org)' 23:51:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v PublicServer 23:51:22 *** Webster changes topic to "Welcome to #openttdcoop, the Cooperative OpenTTD | PSG246 (r24634) | STAGE: Building | www.openttdcoop.org | New players, use @quickstart and !help | http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/IRC_Commands" 23:51:55 <XeryusTC> Ammler: !install updates to latest nightly? 23:51:56 <PublicServer> *** made screenshot at 0001C53A: http://ps.openttdcoop.org/publicserver/webcam/0001C53A.png 23:52:07 <Ammler> no, !update does 23:52:16 <Ammler> !update 23:52:16 <PublicServer> Ammler: Update starting... 23:52:27 <XeryusTC> what does !install do then? 23:52:50 <PublicServer> Update done: OpenTTD r24636 (run !install) 23:53:08 <Ammler> well, !update does a udpate & make bunlde 23:53:10 <XeryusTC> oh, just step 2 :o 23:53:13 <Ammler> !install 23:53:15 <PublicServer> Ammler: install done, please run !restart 23:53:29 <Ammler> and install then copies the bundle to autopilot/ 23:53:47 <Ammler> !restart 23:53:48 <PublicServer> Ammler: Restart scheduled, will be initiated in next minute! 23:54:01 <PublicServer> Scheduled quit for automated maintenance... will be back shortely 23:54:01 <PublicServer> Thank you for playing r24634. 23:54:06 <PublicServer> Server has exited 23:54:07 *** PublicServer has quit IRC 23:54:15 *** PublicServer has joined #openttdcoop 23:54:15 <PublicServer> Autopilot engaged 23:54:15 <PublicServer> Loading savegame: '#openttdcoop - The Public Server (www.openttdcoop.org)' 23:54:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v PublicServer 23:54:15 *** Webster changes topic to "Welcome to #openttdcoop, the Cooperative OpenTTD | PSG246 (r24636) | STAGE: Building | www.openttdcoop.org | New players, use @quickstart and !help | http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/IRC_Commands" 23:54:25 <PublicServer> *** made screenshot at 0001C53A: http://ps.openttdcoop.org/publicserver/webcam/0001C53A.png 23:54:31 <Ammler> that way, you can update all the time, and install quite fast 23:55:00 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 23:55:00 <PublicServer> *** Amm1er joined the game 23:55:08 <PublicServer> *** Amm1er has left the game (leaving) 23:58:16 <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players) 23:58:18 <PublicServer> *** Amm1er joined the game 23:58:37 <Ammler> !unpause 23:58:37 <PublicServer> *** Ammler has unpaused the server. (Use !auto to set it back.) 23:58:39 <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players)