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05:52:29 *** George has quit IRC 05:56:14 *** George has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 07:02:51 *** zooks has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 07:37:41 *** George has quit IRC 07:44:41 *** zooks has quit IRC 09:09:54 *** oskari89 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 11:31:32 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 11:32:04 *** Supercheese has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 12:12:50 *** V453000 is now known as i 12:13:14 *** i is now known as V453000 12:15:17 *** DevZone has quit IRC 12:16:33 *** DevZone has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 12:52:12 *** DevZone has quit IRC 12:52:54 *** DevZone has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 13:33:51 *** oskari892 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 13:40:36 *** oskari89 has quit IRC 15:04:29 *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 16:44:02 *** phatmatt has quit IRC 16:44:02 *** Yexo has quit IRC 16:44:02 *** planetmaker has quit IRC 16:45:26 *** planetmaker has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 16:45:26 *** phatmatt has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 16:45:26 *** Yexo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 17:18:43 <DevZone> Project NML - NewGRF Meta Language build #64-nightlies: SUCCESS in 1 min 3 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/nml/64/ 17:54:29 *** frosch123 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 18:15:43 <oskari892> It seems repo working has been slowing down lately 18:15:56 <oskari892> There's much lag 18:16:53 <oskari892> Have somebody else noticed that? 18:17:26 *** oskari892 is now known as oskari89 18:17:41 <frosch123> noone comitted anything today 18:17:47 <frosch123> who should have noticed? 18:17:47 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 18:23:13 *** George has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 18:44:13 <oskari89> I have committed 18:44:33 <oskari89> DevZone bot has been silent though 18:44:58 <andythenorth> it's a bit less chatty these days 18:46:38 <V453000> it was taught to stfu 18:56:35 <Taede> brot does the commits, devzone only does jenkins compile-stuff 18:56:40 <Taede> brot has been absent for a while 19:03:38 <DevZone> Project OpenGFX build #39-nightlies: SUCCESS in 5 min 59 sec: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/opengfx/39/ 19:07:31 <juzza1> hey andythenorth. i noticed the chips concrete is different ingame than in the source, is this intentional? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5471/firs_concrete.png 19:16:01 <andythenorth> juzza1: I don't understand how it can be different from source? 19:16:08 <andythenorth> the grf is compiled from source.... 19:18:18 <andythenorth> oic 19:18:51 <andythenorth> that's not the concrete tile 19:19:13 <andythenorth> it's a concrete slabs tile, which I got bored of drawing 19:19:21 <andythenorth> the game uses the tile from the base set 19:19:35 <andythenorth> but ogfx doesn't provide a proper sprite for that tile, so you get concrete 19:20:03 <planetmaker> meaning: could be your chance to make one which fits opengfx ;-) 19:20:47 <andythenorth> you're accepting contributions? :P 19:20:54 <planetmaker> :D 19:21:10 <planetmaker> I pretend to. And reject them all. Usually 19:21:12 <andythenorth> there's the one already linked - lower row here https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5471/firs_concrete.png 19:21:25 <andythenorth> I got bored of it ;P 19:21:59 <planetmaker> as said... it would need fit OpenGFX. I'm not sure that one does. But I might need to see it in context. Though... I don't see how the upper one is worse. It's different for sure 19:23:17 <planetmaker> what I want really is: a default OpenTTD install looking as good as possible 19:23:36 <planetmaker> Lots can be done there. But everyone... does newgrf, thus add-ons :-) 19:24:07 <andythenorth> we should just buy a license to the original sprites :X 19:24:13 <planetmaker> yes 19:24:14 <andythenorth> for christmas 19:24:21 <planetmaker> well. why? 19:24:23 <andythenorth> I wonder how much the non-existent owner would charge :P 19:26:00 <planetmaker> a license is not good enough. It needs to be a CC-BY or equivalent 19:27:35 <planetmaker> something which allows to make derivatives and which allows re-distribution 19:28:29 <planetmaker> anyway, this whining discussion is ultra-boring and the upteenths repitition of old ones 19:28:49 *** planetmaker has left #openttdcoop.devzone 19:28:56 *** planetmaker has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 19:31:09 <planetmaker> but this forced compatibility with the TTD baseset makes it also extra hard to modify the game to improved defaults 19:35:18 <andythenorth> what would you like to see improved? 19:40:30 <planetmaker> Many of the OpenGFX graphics, especially houses, are a bit too noise, too much greeble for my taste 19:40:37 <planetmaker> *noisy 19:40:55 <planetmaker> the love for detail is lacking in a lot of sprites 19:41:22 <andythenorth> yes 19:41:29 <andythenorth> the massive positive is that at least they got done 19:41:46 <planetmaker> yes. Same as with zbase. it's done. And now everything rots 19:41:47 *** ODM has quit IRC 19:41:52 <planetmaker> both, OpenGFX and zbase 19:42:04 <planetmaker> they're not 'official'. Thus no-one cares 19:42:17 <Supercheese> I doubt I'll ever not use the TTD base set 19:42:20 <planetmaker> but we officially distribute 1/6 of the TTD base set 19:42:34 <planetmaker> which is actually quite cynical. As we may not distribute that 19:42:38 <Supercheese> zBase is cute, but not my style 19:42:54 <planetmaker> the logical thing would be to remove that. And actually commit opengfx and possibly zbase 19:43:00 <planetmaker> and opensfx 19:43:08 <planetmaker> and make TTD a NewGRF for those who like 19:43:10 <Supercheese> TTD base set has the huge nostalgia factor as well 19:43:51 <V453000> to be entirely honest, I think there is nobody around able (not even discussing anybody Willing) to draw so well to make a set of quality anywhere comparable to ttd base set 19:44:05 <Supercheese> also ^ that 19:44:30 <V453000> at the same time I personally cant say I am not considering to ever make a base set or build on opengfx, but so far only as "sometime in the future" 19:44:36 <planetmaker> V453000, I don't think that's true. You. Andy, FooBar, Pikka. DanMacK, etc... You all are great artists 19:45:14 <planetmaker> and imho the motivation is different if openttd would be a "complete" game with graphics 19:45:19 <V453000> not for all kinds of objects pm, I for example can draw only trains, and even then my graphical style is very inconsistent, which is quite a problem with base set 19:45:22 <planetmaker> instead of saying "I don't care" 19:45:31 <V453000> that is kind of true 19:45:42 <planetmaker> V453000, sure. But there's an artist for everything, just not one for everything 19:46:09 <V453000> I do not dare to believe in team effort 19:46:22 <planetmaker> openttd itself is one. it kinda works 19:47:02 <V453000> same as with opengfx/zbase. Zephyris did vast majority, one person gets motivation, one person does. Same as with everything else in this world I think 19:47:09 <V453000> /openttd world :) 19:47:17 <planetmaker> well, ye 19:47:30 <andythenorth> it would be worth doing for 2x sprites 19:47:46 <andythenorth> as per latest polish screenshot (danmack just linked it, we're talking about it for IH) 19:47:47 <planetmaker> well. can be done. Anyone up to it? 19:47:49 <V453000> I dont think that is worth bothering at all andy 19:48:07 <planetmaker> Actually it quite looks like it's worth it to me 19:48:25 <andythenorth> I think it's worth it 19:48:29 <andythenorth> the motivation is the problem 19:48:33 <V453000> I would put x1 at much higher usefulness and thus priority :) but of course any effort is good 19:48:44 <andythenorth> the most appealing thing about the game to me is the Simon Foster landscape 19:48:55 <andythenorth> so replacing it removes one of my favourite things about the game :P 19:49:14 <andythenorth> it's hard to motivate myself for ~2 years of work on that basis :) 19:49:14 <planetmaker> landscape sprites is the most important thing. up to 95% of what you see is landscape 19:49:36 <V453000> cough and tracks? :( 19:49:39 <V453000> everywhere? :P 19:49:45 <andythenorth> not in my games :P 19:49:49 <planetmaker> in coop games, yes :-P 19:49:58 <planetmaker> tracks and roads are 2nd most important thing 19:50:00 <andythenorth> I have progressively used fewer and fewer landscape modifying grfs 19:50:00 <planetmaker> then houses 19:50:07 <planetmaker> then industries and vehicles 19:50:37 * andythenorth wonders what SF is doing now 19:50:44 <andythenorth> maybe we could do a kickstarter to fund him 19:52:01 <planetmaker> knowing the problems, I'd also start to annoy newgrf authors. And add trams. And horses and early vehicles. And very late ones 19:52:16 <planetmaker> those who update theirs simply would also disable those new ones 19:52:40 <planetmaker> or on might add a button "disable defaults" at the newgrf selection dialogue 19:52:51 <V453000> hm 19:53:03 * andythenorth once considered reimplementing the basic industries as a grf 19:53:05 <planetmaker> for each category (trains, rv, planes, helis, ships, houses, industries...) 19:53:11 <andythenorth> and asking for much of industry.cpp to be deleted :P 19:53:33 <planetmaker> aka opengfx+industries? :D 19:53:41 <andythenorth> o_O exactly 19:53:57 <andythenorth> 'eat your own dogfood' approach 19:54:09 <V453000> yo ogfx+ industries add a lot to the game dont bash my fav industry set :) 19:55:33 <planetmaker> anyway, with such a button it would allow to provide more defaults for the game 19:55:35 <V453000> anyway, what would look more universal and stupid-arguments-about-what-or-how-to-add-things, I think it would be a better solution to create a category of featured class of newGRFs on bananas 19:56:19 <planetmaker> that's something entirely different 19:56:55 <planetmaker> openttd without additions should rock. And it's ... well... most of the fun can only be added by add-ons 19:57:04 <planetmaker> by newgrfs. which is... a bit sad. 19:57:17 <V453000> I dont think new players are bored at all without newgrfs 19:57:20 <planetmaker> it's very good we have them. But why not have an awesome default game, too? 19:57:30 <V453000> obviously after playing for a year or so newGRFs become the thing 19:57:32 <planetmaker> why not before 1920? Or after 2050? 19:57:46 <planetmaker> why no trams? 19:57:47 <V453000> for one I would expect discussions how to :) 19:57:53 <V453000> e.g. stats 19:58:06 * Supercheese votes for more & better default vehicles 19:58:17 <Supercheese> didn't Pikka-sprites get used for OGFX? 19:58:21 <Supercheese> airplanes* 19:59:00 <V453000> trams would make sense I think 19:59:19 <V453000> trains, perhaps a couple IF someone drew new trains for both ttd base set and opengfx 19:59:55 <V453000> but I still think if those things are to change, it is time to come to discussion of system - e.g. ability to choose between something like train classes 20:00:19 <V453000> perhaps not as complicated and exhausting every game possibility currently known as in nuts, but something 20:00:22 <Supercheese> Yeah, the Pikka-sprites for OGFX airplanes were an excellent addition 20:00:43 <Supercheese> the futur-ish aircraft that are non-Pikka look like trash by comparison 20:00:44 <V453000> and I honestly cant be arsed to discuss those things with "the rest" for quite obvious reasons visible at tt-forums 20:03:25 <andythenorth> it's funny 20:03:38 <andythenorth> now if I want to discuss something, I discuss here 20:03:56 <andythenorth> and with this IH set I totally don't want to discuss in forums at all, 100% 20:04:13 <planetmaker> V453000, that exactly is the point why I think it makes not too much sense to have base sets as plug-in 20:04:20 <planetmaker> it limits what you can do too drastically 20:04:47 <V453000> oh righ 20:04:48 <V453000> hm 20:05:07 <planetmaker> as you have to do every change 2 or 3 times. which sucks 20:06:20 <V453000> what is this limit? global or did I just exceed amount of randoms for 1 item? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/dammmnnn.png 20:06:46 <andythenorth> FIRS does that too 20:06:49 <planetmaker> local to the chain 20:06:59 <planetmaker> somewhat 20:07:08 <V453000> so one item probably has too many random switches? 20:07:15 <planetmaker> switches in general 20:07:28 <planetmaker> random or not doesn't matter 20:07:39 <V453000> hm 20:07:40 * andythenorth considers redrawing everything in 2x zoom 20:07:52 <andythenorth> how hard could it be? o_O 20:08:03 <V453000> hm yeah the switch is probably seriously big 20:08:14 <V453000> only one way to find out andy :) 20:08:31 <frosch123> hmm, i wonder whether one should code a grf -> graphviz converter, so one can visualise 123 chains 20:08:46 <frosch123> i still think that nml does something wrong if it hits that limit 20:09:14 <andythenorth> I think it doesn't know how to reuse ids 20:09:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: just zoom everything, and then somewhat recolor it :p 20:09:24 <andythenorth> as any sensible nfo author would :P 20:09:31 <planetmaker> oh, it does re-use ids. But probably not efficient enough 20:09:57 <V453000> well my switch is probably over tens of thousands of lines of code and considering around 30 000 sprites 20:09:59 <V453000> sooo ... 20:10:01 <V453000> no comment :D 20:10:24 <V453000> actually probably even more 20:10:32 <frosch123> V453000: well, i wonder whether it is possible to prove that everything can be done with 2 ids :p 20:10:34 <planetmaker> that doesn't tell too much about the amount of theoretically minimally needed ids :-) 20:10:40 <frosch123> s/prove/proof/ 20:10:52 <V453000> I take shitload as mathematically precise answer here pm :D 20:10:52 <planetmaker> prove was right 20:10:57 <planetmaker> I think ;-) 20:11:11 <V453000> it was 20:11:16 <Supercheese> prove is correct 20:11:25 <V453000> but grammar also suggests it can be substituted by beer 20:11:26 <frosch123> it's verb/noun again, right? 20:11:32 <V453000> y 20:11:33 <planetmaker> yes 20:11:36 <V453000> /beer 20:14:26 <V453000> just removed 19k lines of code XD 20:15:13 <frosch123> sounds familar 20:15:20 <frosch123> i think i did that at work this week 20:15:39 <V453000> XD 20:16:17 <V453000> once upon a time I got an EXCELLENT idea to have C4T engines: 9 loading stages for all cargoes, IN BLOODY 17 cargo schemes - done by sprites 20:16:25 <frosch123> old stuff that wasn't active for 10 years but was stilll lieing around increasing compile time :p 20:16:27 <V453000> now the funny part is that the different colours are barely visible XD 20:16:38 <V453000> shitload of code for basically nothing, only made massive mess 20:16:45 <V453000> time to progressDemolish it :) 20:16:48 <V453000> hehe :) yeah 20:17:15 <frosch123> or rather: old stuff that wasn't active for 10 years, and you would have to make damn sure that nothing of it would get activated in some way :p 20:18:36 <V453000> mhm :) 20:19:37 <V453000> ._. still 47 k lines of code 20:20:33 <V453000> aaaaaand the randomswitch problem persists ... will have to do more digging ... well at least I cleaned up nuts of this thing XD 20:21:19 <frosch123> well, you could try to figure out which switch causes the issue 20:21:37 <frosch123> it's likely that it is not caused by the mass, but a single one which confuses nml 20:22:03 <V453000> I know exactly now 20:22:31 <V453000> just have to remove the randoms manually which is a bit ass :) 20:22:52 <planetmaker> it's not necessarily random... 20:22:54 <V453000> there was 5* amount of cargoes random switches for 1 wagon 20:23:05 <V453000> why does it say [random]switches then :| 20:23:24 <planetmaker> to make clear that it is a switch or randomswitch 20:23:40 <planetmaker> otherwise it'd say simply randomswitch 20:23:55 <planetmaker> and not [random]switch 20:24:14 <V453000> will try to do further cleanup and lets see 20:24:24 <V453000> still have some more cleanup ideas up my sleeve 20:24:28 <planetmaker> it can only be something which you added last 20:24:43 <V453000> I know on which item it is 20:24:59 <V453000> for now I will remove randoms which dont do anything 20:25:13 <planetmaker> that's always a good choice :D 20:25:14 <V453000> then reduce amount of possibilities, 40% could be done differently 20:25:31 <V453000> I have randoms with just 1 output, that way it was easy to expand them when drawing 20:25:55 <V453000> e.g. when I draw steel and realized I want 4 kinds of steel randomly on the wagon, I just added them to the random switch which was already there :) 20:26:01 <V453000> but yeah 20:26:38 <planetmaker> if nml is intelligent that doesn't use up an id :-) 20:28:29 <V453000> XD POLL TIME: Rate how disgustingly awful and evil coding approach it is to call a spritegroup SHIP_FLATBED_random_crates XD 20:29:21 <planetmaker> sounds like what I could have used, too 20:29:22 <frosch123> ship flatbed? sounds like it randomly loses stuff to the tide 20:29:53 <V453000> spritegroup isnt random switch though pm :P 20:30:10 <V453000> those are spritegroups which are then chosen by the random ... originally were :) 20:30:29 <andythenorth> V453000: spritegroup names can be red_green_cat_tree 20:30:36 <andythenorth> don't worry about them :P 20:30:59 <V453000> I wont dont worry XD 20:35:05 <V453000> I hate myself today 20:35:28 <V453000> lets just say I am not having success on every corner of nuts development today XD 20:36:40 <planetmaker> time for early bed to cure the cold. Bye :-) 20:37:19 <V453000> bai 20:38:04 <andythenorth> bloody colds 20:41:08 <V453000> FUCK XD cleanup phase 2 didnt quite cut it 20:41:09 <V453000> XD 20:41:11 <V453000> need moar 20:41:23 <andythenorth> we got more sweary round here 20:41:40 <V453000> asdf 21:08:38 *** oskari89 has quit IRC 21:12:21 <frosch123> night 21:12:25 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:29:45 *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone