Log for #openttd on 26th February 2006:
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00:00:06  <Bjarni> it appears to work well now
00:00:40  *** dp__ [] has joined #openttd
00:00:59  <Turulo> yeps
00:01:17  <Turulo> then i will release a devel version, so people can test it
00:01:33  <Turulo> Bjarni do you have any tips for creating low load servers?
00:01:45  <Turulo> more than decreasing map size, and veichles number?
00:01:56  <Bjarni> hmm
00:02:02  <Turulo> also maybe some net_frame_freq changes are requiered?
00:02:13  <Bjarni> max number of companies and connected players as well
00:02:17  <Turulo> psp isnt too fast so i got desync errors somethimes
00:02:27  <Bjarni> but the network stuff.... I always play in single player
00:02:41  <Bjarni> ahh got the new coal truck
00:02:47  <Turulo> lol
00:03:07  <Turulo> well supporting it isnt bad, and handled gamers like it
00:03:59  <Bjarni> actually now that I think about it, I have only tried OTTD on lan
00:04:14  <Bjarni> I haven't played decent sized games online
00:04:45  <Turulo> im wanting to keep servers using 512x512 maps for psp players
00:05:06  <Turulo> i also dont like big maps
00:05:18  <Darkvater> Turulo: well that's nice, but even for a handheld and 2-3 players 256x256 is more than enough :)
00:05:22  <Fujitsu> Yeah.
00:05:24  <Darkvater> 512 will become too long
00:05:37  <Turulo> i would like to support 10 players
00:05:43  <Turulo> if psp clients can handle it
00:05:51  <Turulo> so i need some testing
00:06:08  <Turulo> otherwise i will decrease maps to 256 and less players
00:06:17  <Bjarni> how do you compile for PSP?
00:06:36  <Turulo> there is a sdk
00:06:45  <Turulo> and patches for gcc/binutils/gdb
00:06:57  <Turulo> done by the ps2dev guys
00:07:04  <Bjarni> if it is done in gentoo, then we can (quickly?) add it to the nightly build server
00:07:27  <Turulo> yes it can be done on gentoo
00:07:36  <Turulo> or almost on any other unix like
00:07:44  <Turulo> it works on mac
00:08:17  <Turulo> well last release is clean code
00:08:29  <Turulo> using #if defined(PSP)
00:08:40  <Turulo> trying to hack as less as posible
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00:08:42  <Bjarni> make a diff and try that diff on the newest revision
00:08:54  <Turulo> but gui changes arent very friendly ;(
00:08:56  <Tobin> Hello people.
00:09:00  <Turulo> hiz
00:09:07  <Bjarni> I have already left 0.4.5
00:09:16  <Bjarni> hi Tobin
00:09:32  <Bjarni> Tobin: did you try the change in the full screen cocoa driver?
00:09:44  <Tobin> Which change?
00:09:47  <Bjarni> I made it a lot faster yesterday
00:09:53  <Tobin> Ah, not yet.
00:09:56  <Bjarni> a speedup of 1000%
00:10:02  <Bjarni> you should be able to notice that
00:10:26  <Tobin> Bjarni: I'll try it.
00:10:32  <Tobin> Bjarni: In the latest nightly?
00:10:57  <Tobin> Is everyone enjoying this DmitryKo guy as much as me?
00:11:05  <Tobin> Hilarious.
00:11:24  <Bjarni> Tobin: yeah, but you will gain even higher speed by compiling yourself
00:11:33  <Bjarni> I mean the nightly build is compiled for G3
00:11:43  <Tobin> It isn't universal>
00:11:45  <Tobin> ?
00:11:51  <Bjarni> not the nightly build
00:12:06  <Bjarni> the compiler farm do not yet support x86 based OSX binaries
00:12:15  <peter1138> does
00:12:24  <Bjarni> *doesn't
00:12:48  <Bjarni> the releases are universal since I compile them in OSX
00:13:19  <Bjarni> also I just added the ability to compile tripple binaries so it's also optimised for G5
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00:13:24  <Tobin> Bjarni: That reminds me, did you use lippo to put the universal binaries together (from the Makefile) or does it set both -march i386 and -march ppc when compiling?
00:13:26  <Fujitsu> Nice.
00:13:34  <Bjarni> lipo
00:13:36  * Buggi wonders if there is a better way to handle pre-signal placement
00:13:47  * Tobin looks in the Makefile
00:14:06  <Bjarni> it's in os/macosx/Makfile and os/macosx/Makfile.setup
00:14:14  <Bjarni> bah
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00:14:22  <Bjarni> *Makefile
00:14:30  <Bjarni> and Makefile.setup
00:14:42  <Bjarni> how can I make the same typo twice???
00:15:07  <Tobin> Bjarni: Is there a good reason not to set both architectures when compiling?
00:15:15  <Bjarni> yeah
00:15:16  <Bjarni> it failed
00:15:19  <Bjarni> that's why
00:15:23  <Tobin> Really?
00:15:37  <Bjarni> don't ask me why
00:15:44  <Bjarni> I can't remember, but it did fail
00:16:08  <Bjarni> but it was with Xcode 2.1. 2.2 should handle such cases way better
00:16:24  <Bjarni> but then I had already written the working makefile based on lipo
00:16:58  <Tobin> Seems like a bit of a kludge.
00:17:20  <Bjarni> anyway lipo is needed for the tripple binary anyway
00:17:26  <Buggi> hmm... where was a help area for presignals... *ponders the url*
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00:17:57  <Bjarni> Buggi: the forum or even . They work the same way
00:18:59  <Buggi> ^>^ thanks
00:19:00  <Bjarni> Turulo: I think we can say that the server keeps working
00:19:05  <Turulo> Bjarni you can disconnect when you want, thnks for helping
00:19:31  <Turulo> yes, i still have to test it with multiple psp players
00:20:12  <Bjarni> unless you changed something directly in the network code, it should work by now
00:20:18  <Turulo> thnaks for help :P
00:20:30  <Bjarni> you should not be able to tell what OS or hardware I use
00:20:35  <Bjarni> the packages are the same
00:20:46  <Turulo> yes the only problem
00:20:48  <Turulo> is psp speed
00:20:55  <Turulo> it will produce desync with server
00:21:00  <Buggi> possible to create a signal widget window?
00:21:03  <Turulo> is psp has high load
00:21:37  <Bjarni> it's not like you can fix that if the issue is lack of CPU power
00:21:58  <Turulo> yes
00:21:58  <Bjarni> you should go ahead and make it ready to add to svn
00:22:09  <Turulo> but i should know the limits
00:22:19  <Bjarni> we will learn
00:22:27  <Turulo> to properly maintain some servers that would be "psp friendly"
00:22:46  <Turulo> Bjarni the only problem i have to integrate code into svn
00:22:49  <Turulo> are gui changes
00:23:02  <Fujitsu> That could be a problem, Turolo...
00:23:05  <Bjarni> oh those....
00:23:06  <Fujitsu> *Turulo
00:23:21  <Turulo> there arent too many changes
00:23:24  * Buggi fears the widget system
00:23:32  <Turulo> but all save/load windows were resized
00:23:37  <Turulo> map, and some others
00:23:38  <Bjarni> send me a diff so I can see what you do to the GUI
00:23:42  <Turulo> ok
00:23:47  <Turulo> hold on a sec..
00:24:07  <Turulo> Also there are some hacks
00:24:11  <Turulo> related to psp
00:24:11  <Darkvater> gn all
00:24:28  <Fujitsu> Night.
00:24:33  <Turulo> as some firmware versions allow game to be run on kernel mode, and others no
00:24:36  <Bjarni> night Darkvater
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00:27:20  <ln-> survey to all: what's the best computer science book you've read?
00:27:51  <Bjarni> hmm
00:28:13  <Bjarni> can you be a little more specific than just computer science?
00:28:37  <Bjarni> I guess you want to get a book, right?
00:28:42  <Buggi> the grey and white bars just look way to close together in color
00:28:47  <Buggi> hard to see the difference
00:28:59  * Buggi seems to be talking to no one who cares, but oh well :D
00:29:00  <ln-> no, i've got my own favorite already, Modern Operating Systems by Andrew Tanenbaum.
00:29:54  <Bjarni> Buggi: the difference between you and a teacher is that you notice that nobody listens :p
00:30:20  <Bjarni> ln-: then why made such a survey in the middle of the night?
00:30:38  <Tobin> Bjarni: The Cocoa video driver does seem faster. The game still only runs at about 120% CPU time though (in fast forward).
00:30:51  <Buggi> lol!!
00:30:54  <Buggi> gee thanks man
00:31:15  <Turulo> Bjarni: what do you prefer dcc or mail?
00:31:25  <Bjarni> dcc
00:31:37  <Bjarni> Tobin: it is only improved in fullscreen mode
00:31:57  <Tobin> Bjarni: You said that earlier.
00:31:59  <Turulo> sending, let me know if you can recive it
00:32:09  <Bjarni> Turulo: failed
00:32:14  <Turulo> note that patch is agains 0.4.5
00:32:20  <Bjarni> ---	DCC RECV connect attempt to Turulo failed (err=Invalid argument).
00:32:37  <Turulo> ok the give me mail, please
00:32:37  <ln-> Bjarni: because i noticed everyone isn't sleeping yet.
00:32:43  <Turulo> it must be due to me firewall
00:32:45  <Bjarni> copy paste one of the GUI changes on then
00:32:47  <Tobin> Bjarni: OK, juts tried that too but  I can't switch to fullscreen mode.
00:32:58  <Turulo> Bjarni is a large patch...
00:33:02  <Turulo> hold a sec..
00:33:16  <Bjarni> Tobin: you can't?
00:33:22  <Bjarni> why not?
00:33:39  <Tobin> Seg fault.
00:33:45  <Bjarni> o_O
00:33:51  <Tobin> Hang on, I'll start the game in GDB.
00:34:16  <Turulo> Bjarni
00:34:18  <Turulo> here is the patch
00:34:20  <Turulo>
00:34:42  <Turulo> some files have been also added
00:34:54  <Turulo> and it uses separate Makefile
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00:36:57  <Bjarni> why?
00:37:00  <Fujitsu> Squite a large patch...
00:37:11  <Bjarni> we really prefer to use the same makefile for all OSes
00:37:19  <Turulo> yes i know
00:37:19  <Bjarni> it makes it easier to maintain
00:37:34  <Bjarni> add one file to the makefile and it's added for everybody (except windows)
00:37:36  <Turulo> but i didnt felt like to be hacking that huge makefile
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00:38:15  <Bjarni> wb Tobin
00:38:27  <Tobin> Thanks.
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00:39:11  <Tobin> I stupidly let the game crash in full screen while running in gdb, when meant it wasn't closed automatically and I was stuck with a fullscreen app I couldn't move.
00:39:43  <Tobin> I'd also forgot to turn on the ssh server so I couldn't kill it from another machine.
00:39:51  <Tobin> Hooray for stupidity!
00:39:57  <coppercore> owned
00:39:58  <Bjarni> :p
00:40:17  <Tobin> OK, let me try this again.
00:40:37  <Fujitsu> ssh servers are always useful :)
00:41:50  <Tobin> Bjarni: Have you ever used the remote debugging tool?
00:41:58  <Bjarni> no
00:42:19  <Bjarni> but use another computer to log in with ssh and then run gdb openttd from that one
00:42:34  <Bjarni> it worked well for egladil
00:42:38  <Tobin> That's my plan.
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00:47:27  <Tobin> Well that was useless.
00:48:00  <Tobin> Bjarni: Something is going wrong with a call to memcpy.
00:48:25  <Bjarni> in QZ_DrawScreen() ?
00:48:31  * Tobin digs some more
00:48:51  <Bjarni> and I would like to know what "something" is
00:48:54  <Tobin> QZ_DrawScreen() doesn't seem to be on the stack.
00:49:06  <Tobin> Don't rush me. :)
00:49:26  <Bjarni> :)
00:50:43  <Tobin> I'm rebuilding the game with DEBUG set. Think it'll help? ;)
00:51:20  <Tobin> Bjarni: Lots of warnings for video/cocoa_v.m
00:52:58  <Bjarni> I don't get any
00:53:26  <Bjarni> except I did when I tried to make a universal binary this evening
00:53:36  <Tobin> I do, "video/cocoa_v.m:845: warning: 'LockPortBits' is deprecated" etc.
00:53:44  <Bjarni> which means it's something to do with i686
00:53:50  <Bjarni> but we already knew that
00:54:17  <Bjarni> probably hardcoded big endian or something
00:54:31  <Tobin> Nasty.
00:54:44  <Tobin> Anyway, I've got a useful backtrace now.
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00:56:38  <Tobin> QZ_DrawScreen () at video/cocoa_v.m:1498.
00:56:56  <Tobin> bbl
00:58:24  <Bjarni> I had a feeling that it failed on that one
00:58:29  <Bjarni> but it works on powerpc
00:58:33  <Bjarni> weird
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01:02:19  <Bjarni> Tobin: ahh, now I think I know what goes on
01:04:57  <Bjarni> then again
01:05:07  <Bjarni> this is a part that I didn't touch
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01:36:23  <Bjarni> Tobin: eventually try revision 3669 (the one before the optimised video driver) and see what happens. It got the same warnings and I didn't touch that part of the code
01:36:47  <Bjarni> I will analyse the code for endian issues really soon though I don't see any reason why there should be any
01:36:55  <Bjarni> except that it fails, that is ;)
01:36:57  <Bjarni> goodnight
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08:06:36  <Tron> " I can tell you that - I've got it from reading the manual for a UNIX System V R4 (I recall it was FreeBSD)."
08:06:57  <Tron> where does this guy get this bullshit from?
08:07:22  <Tron> the BSDs are exactly not SysV derived
08:10:11  <Diablo-D3> is this the multithreading bullshit?
08:10:18  <Diablo-D3> sysv could multithread apps
08:10:30  <Diablo-D3> since the dawn of unix, apps could multithread
08:11:27  <Diablo-D3> (seeing as, you know, unix was designed to be a multi-process OS, and multithreading is a hop skip and a long jmp away from running multiple apps at once)
08:12:17  <Diablo-D3> you know what the cheapest way to do threads is?
08:12:59  <Diablo-D3> make the OS pretend its a new application, and the called function is really it's main(), but give it the main thread's memory space but with a new stack allocated elsewhere
08:13:12  <Diablo-D3> (there are people who will shoot me for that simplifaction, but you get the idea)
08:14:37  <Tron> <Diablo-D3> since the dawn of unix, apps could multithread <--- er, no
08:15:28  <Diablo-D3> Tron: exggaguration
08:15:36  <Tron> by ten years
08:15:47  <Diablo-D3> unix multithreading is still older than I am
08:15:50  <Diablo-D3> and I'm 22.
08:16:19  <Tron> breaking news: world existed before Diablo-D3's birth!
08:16:40  <Diablo-D3> Tron: gasp! no shit!
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08:16:49  <Diablo-D3> when I was born I created the universe in my image!
08:17:02  <Diablo-D3> and then I created a planet full of people!
08:17:32  <Diablo-D3> and then you fuckers couldnt shut up about it
08:17:42  <Diablo-D3> you can stick your religion up your ass
08:18:00  <Tron> Bjarni: +	PPC_CC:=$(shell ls /usr/bin/powerpc-apple-darwin*-gcc* | tail -n 1)
08:18:07  <Tron> that's overcomplicated
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08:18:15  <Tron> echo /usr/bin/powerpc-apple-darwin*-gcc*
08:18:21  <Diablo-D3> lol
08:18:26  <ThePizzaKing> Why would I want to put religion in my donkey?
08:18:58  <Diablo-D3> ThePizzaKing: the same reason you have a donkey as a mascot for a political party
08:19:16  <Bjarni> Tron: what if somebody got two different versions of GCC installed. I only want one of them ;)
08:19:27  <Tron> i just meant the ls
08:19:35  <ThePizzaKing> yeah, vote one Jeff, I mean ThePizzaKing, my real name isn't Jeff
08:19:53  <Tron> you of course have to fill in the stuff around it
08:21:30  <ThePizzaKing> Vote no for Republic, stay in the British Empire, because the queen's cool :)
08:22:21  <Bjarni> Tron: ok it's just two different ways to get the same info. Both appears to work
08:23:19  <Bjarni> Tron: however there is one thing I really wonder about. video/cocoa_v.m:1498.... memcpy crashes on x86 OSX but works on PPC OSX
08:23:25  <Bjarni> and I have no idea why
08:24:52  <Bjarni> I get some warnings when compiling for x86, but it turns out that they were present even before this change and AFAIK it worked before the rewrite of QZ_DrawScreen()
08:24:53  <Tron> of course it works, you can go to your neighbour the other way round the world, that would work, too, it's just a 40.000km longer way
08:25:24  <Tron> and the warnings are? (why do i always have to explicitly ask this?)
08:25:45  <Bjarni> I was actually getting them right now
08:25:45  <Bjarni> video/cocoa_v.m:850: warning: 'LockPortBits' is deprecated (declared at /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Frameworks/QD.framework/Headers/Quickdraw.h:1652)
08:25:45  <Bjarni> video/cocoa_v.m:852: warning: 'GetPixBaseAddr' is deprecated (declared at /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Frameworks/QD.framework/Headers/QDOffscreen.h:364)
08:25:48  <Bjarni> stuff like that
08:30:07  <Bjarni> <-- that's all of them
08:31:38  <Tron> the first assignment of height is unused
08:31:58  <Tron> you assign num_dirty_rects, then you don't use it in the test for == 0
08:32:52  <Bjarni> fixed
08:33:30  <Bjarni> but that's not the cause of the crash... I don't get why it works on PPC and fails on Intel
08:33:50  <Bjarni> since it's internal stuff, it should not be affected by endian issues
08:35:00  <Tron>     case NSLeftMouseDown:
08:35:08  <Tron> something seems wrong aroud there (about line 520)
08:36:05  <Tron> what kind of crash, i need more information
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08:37:51  <Bjarni> I understood it as read/write outside of the array, but Tobin left in the middle of the bug investigation :(
08:38:07  <Tron> *sigh*
08:38:13  <Tron> the exact symptoms
08:38:26  <Tron> SIGBUS, SIGSEGV
08:38:57  <Tron> what does the debugger say? about the addresses?
08:39:03  <Tron> s/?//
08:40:41  * Bjarni opens the log from last night
08:41:37  <Tron> does it always crash? immediatly? or just after some time?
08:41:54  <Bjarni> Seg fault
08:41:55  <peter1138> mornninginging
08:41:57  <Bjarni> that's all he said
08:42:10  <Tron> (btw: do you properly handle resizing? i.e. do you clear the dirty rect list)
08:42:35  <Tron> peter1138 knows how two start writing "morning", he just doesn't know when to stop
08:43:03  <Bjarni> sounds like an old record with a scratch in it
08:43:27  <Tron> you mean thos big, black, analog CDs?
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08:44:56  <peter1138> :)
08:45:02  <peter1138> Bjarni: "main()" ?
08:45:41  <Tron> Bjarni: does the destination buffer have to be locked? is it properly locked?
08:47:43  <Bjarni> hmm
08:47:51  <Bjarni> good question
08:48:34  <Bjarni> but if that is the problem, then why did it used to work and why do it work for PPC
08:51:28  <Bjarni> video/cocoa_v.m:847: warning: 'GetPixBaseAddr' is deprecated (declared at /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.4u.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Frameworks/QD.framework/Headers/QDOffscreen.h:364)
08:51:38  <Bjarni> it actually could look like this is the cause of it
08:51:51  <Bjarni> it might try to write the bytes in the wrong place
08:52:01  <Bjarni> now the question is how to get rid of those warnings
08:52:13  <Tron> <Bjarni> but if that is the problem, then why did it used to work and why do it work for PPC <-- it's called "pure luck"
08:53:27  <Tron> "Any QuickDraw routines that your application uses after calling GetPixBaseAddr may change the base address for the offscreen pixel image."
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08:54:13  <Tron> "If the offscreen buffer has been purged, GetPixBaseAddr returns NIL."
08:54:44  <Bjarni> what exactly does it mean that it's "deprecated"?
08:55:04  <Diablo-D3> Tron: that sounds a lot like directdraw
08:55:17  <Diablo-D3> thank god I use SDL which fixes all of that
08:55:48  <Tron> Bjarni: you shouldn't use it, because it will go away in the future
08:56:10  <Bjarni> ok...
08:56:31  <Bjarni> that leaves a real problem in this driver
08:57:39  <Tron> Darkvater: wake up, you lazy mutt
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09:27:03  * peter1138 ponders patches with irrelevant changes
09:27:08  <peter1138> -if (sprite != 0) {
09:27:08  <peter1138> +if (sprite) {
09:27:14  <peter1138> like that's so useful o_O
09:27:50  <Buggi> that's just bad programming
09:27:52  <hylje> unbloat
09:28:11  <peter1138> i suspect that's someone merging their patch but not quite understanding what they're doing...
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09:29:07  <hylje> i think if (thing) {} is more readable than if (thing != 0) {}
09:29:11  <hylje> :|
09:29:36  <peter1138> only if thing is a boolean
09:29:49  <angerman> hmm does anyone know who runs the Darksoon server?
09:29:57  <angerman> They kinda need a reboot i'd say.
09:30:13  <angerman> they are running 2090 now for over a day...
09:31:54  * angerman thought OTTD would restart the game automatically ... :/
09:32:28  <peter1138> only if it's told to
09:33:05  <angerman> so one has to wait for the server admin to restart the game, huh=
09:34:47  <peter1138> yes...?
09:34:59  <angerman> damn ...
09:35:17  <angerman> why can't there be some *voting* system?
09:35:18  <Tron> hylje: if (cheese_is_tasty) vs. if (colour_of_house)
09:35:24  <peter1138> - * @param f weight
09:35:26  <peter1138> + * @arapm f weight#
09:35:27  <peter1138> hmm
09:35:29  <Tron> the latter just makes no sense
09:35:39  <peter1138> updating patch == reverting trunk changes? heh
09:35:43  <angerman> like say: if all player from all companies vote for a restart...
09:37:10  <hylje> Tron: well yes, badly written vars usually dont make any sense. the colour_of_house should be house_is_coloured
09:37:20  <Tron> no, no
09:37:29  <Tron> the variable is supposed to hold the colour of a house
09:37:41  <Tron> the same thing as for the sprite thing peter1138 mentioned
09:37:52  <hylje> :/ false if uncoloured, colour if coloured
09:37:57  <Tron> no
09:38:06  <Tron> sprite doesn't contain if it is a sprite
09:38:12  <Tron> it is a sprite number
09:38:18  <Tron> same for the house colour
09:38:30  <hylje> yes?
09:38:45  <Tron> if (colour_of_house) makes no sense
09:38:50  <hylje> i thought anything but "",0,false is true as in perl
09:38:53  <Tron> if (colour_of_house != BLACK) is sensible
09:39:11  <Tron> of course it is, but from a semantic point it doesn't make sense
09:39:23  <Tron> maybe the symbolic name BLACK equals 0
09:39:58  <Tron> but if you just read if (colour_of_house) you have to know that to get the interpretation that it test if the house has not the colour black
09:40:23  <Tron> that's Bad Style(tm)
09:43:16  <Tron> peter1138: what patch are you looking at?
09:44:17  <peter1138> the physics acceleration one
09:44:38  <peter1138> i think i'll give up and ask him to learn how to update stuff...
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10:55:18  <Tron> hmhm, you can remove the roads when there are road works
10:55:37  <Tron> and then build other stuff, a bulldozer on a piece of rail looks interesting
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11:00:35  <Tron> ok, which brainiac added the "depend" target to the list of targets which should not depend on the dependency files?
11:01:29  * tokai wasn't it. :)
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11:03:23  <Bjarni> hmm
11:03:34  <Bjarni> tokai was the only one to reply to that question
11:03:35  <Bjarni> :p
11:04:45  <hylje> thus everyone but tokai is guilty
11:05:09  <Bjarni> ok
11:05:14  * Bjarni blames hylje
11:05:30  <tokai> i have clean hands, because i have no svn access:)
11:05:41  <Bjarni> hmm
11:05:47  <Bjarni> prove that
11:05:54  <Diablo-D3> I have dirty hands, but I was eating fried chicken
11:06:09  <Diablo-D3> fried chicken repells soap, i kid you not
11:06:17  <Diablo-D3> you can only wear the grease off
11:06:18  <Tron> "Can't remove road from here... road reconstruction is in progress" <-- is this acceptable english (the part after the ...)
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11:06:33  <tokai> Tron: for me, yes.
11:06:34  <Vornicus> looks fine to me.
11:06:44  <tokai> Triffid_Hunter: would work w/o is too
11:06:54  <tokai> road reconstruction in progress
11:07:05  <tokai> i think:) but i'm not native speaker
11:07:10  <Diablo-D3> tokai is right, actually
11:07:21  <Diablo-D3> road reconstruction in progress is more formal
11:07:22  <Tron> tokai: your TLD is .de, so i rank your opinion as bad as mine (;
11:07:31  <Diablo-D3> and change Can't to Cannot
11:07:40  <Tron> that string already exists
11:07:51  <Diablo-D3> then it needs to be changed
11:07:58  <Diablo-D3> Can't is a horrible thing to use in computer programs
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11:08:05  <Bjarni> <Diablo-D3>	you can only wear the grease off <-- then you have never been in a workshop with grease and oil and stuff like that. Surely you can get it off, but you might need something stronger than normal soap
11:08:10  <Prof_Frink> Cannot remove obstacles on land!
11:08:19  <Diablo-D3> Bjarni: I swear I'm getting some of that industrial shit
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11:08:25  <Diablo-D3> Bjarni: just for when I have fried chicken
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11:10:06  <Bjarni> Diablo-D3: it's enough just to get something like they have at car repair shops, not some fancy industrial stuff... that could be overkill and unhealthy for your hands
11:10:52  <Bjarni> one way to solve this issue is to use some soap with sand in it. The sand will tear the surface of the fat and then the soap can do it's work to get it off
11:11:13  *** eQualize1 [] has joined #openttd
11:11:15  <Bjarni> tip: don't go outside to get regular sand... it might have side effects
11:12:53  <ThePizzaKing> On the other hand, if you do go out and get it, there might be cat poo in it and you wouldn't have to pay for the soap part.
11:15:30  <Bjarni> so you think cat poo is better than chicken grease?
11:16:08  <ThePizzaKing> depends
11:16:31  <Bjarni> ahh found the issue on x86 OSX
11:16:40  <Bjarni> they didn't port the lib to x86, only PPC
11:16:52  <Bjarni> that could explain the crash on x86 OSX
11:17:19  <Bjarni> now the question is: what to do instead
11:18:57  <Bjarni> maybe eglandil made a wise choice by leaving for a few days.... adding PPC only carbon libs to a universal cocoa driver.... that's a big don't
11:18:59  <Bjarni> ;)
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11:29:30  <Bjarni> why London?
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11:52:35  <DarkSSH> Ok, this sucks :(
11:52:49  <DarkSSH> I can't log into the university comp to reattach Darkvater
11:53:13  <Bjarni> we got a runaway
11:53:26  <Bjarni> :p
11:53:30  <Bjarni> why do it fail?
11:53:36  <DarkSSH> jlaksjf 239084rfj
11:53:41  <Bjarni> ahh
11:53:45  *** mode/#openttd [+o DarkSSH] by ChanServ
11:53:45  <Bjarni> I know that problem
11:53:49  <DarkSSH> fucking nickserv
11:54:30  <Bjarni> do anybody know how it is going with the 32 bit graphic engine?
11:54:50  <Bjarni> I need it
11:55:02  <Bjarni> but for a totally different reason than everybody else :p
11:55:43  <Bjarni> I just learned that we need to get rid of the QuickDraw stuff in the cocoa video driver since they are stopping support on it and it fucks up on x86 OSX
11:56:11  <Bjarni> but if we use Quartz instead as we are told to do, we can't use 8 bit coloured stuff anymore :(
11:56:36  <Bjarni> it's like they didn't think that anybody needed it anymore
11:57:38  <Tron> why can't you use it?
11:57:50  <Tron> (8 bit stuff)
11:58:05  <Bjarni> their 8 bit support is limited to grayscale
11:58:15  <Tron> and the problem is?
11:58:29  <Bjarni> I don't want to play OTTD in grayscale
11:58:45  <Celestar> bah
11:58:47  <hylje> then port the gfx to 16 or 32bit
11:58:49  <Celestar> I hate changing vehicle.h
11:58:58  <Tron> surface_with_32bpp[pixel_coordinate] = palette_8_to_32[internal_ottd_framebuffer[pixel_coordinate]]
11:59:12  <Bjarni> hylje: that's what I started to say
11:59:30  <Tron> which basically already happens in windowed mode in your Quartz backend
11:59:55  <Bjarni> and it really eats CPU power
12:00:07  <Tron> not more than on any other platform, which does that
12:00:58  <hylje> eats either cpu power or memory
12:01:16  <hylje> depending where the porting happens
12:01:50  <Tron> we still need palette animation, so an internal 32bpp framebuffer is not feasible
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12:04:05  <Bjarni> but if the conversion is done in the game and is sending out 32 bit, it needs to redraw everything every time the palette changes
12:05:25  <Tron> uh... where's the news?
12:05:28  <Tron> that already happens
12:05:33  <Bjarni> yeah
12:05:36  <Vornicus> is the palette change deterministic?
12:05:54  <Tron> the moment you don't have an 8bpp surface we do this
12:06:03  <Bjarni> but in full screen it changes OS settings to 8 bit and tells the OS about the palette
12:06:05  <Bjarni> much faster
12:06:13  <Tron> Vornicus: it happens every soandso many ticks
12:06:34  <Tron> Bjarni: and? if that's not possible, it's not possible
12:06:50  <Vornicus> If so you can prerender the various repaletted things in 32bpp and use those.
12:07:00  <DarkSSH> *pom*pom* and it turns out cocoa isn't faster at all ;P
12:07:31  <Bjarni> DarkSSH: SDL will end up having the same issue
12:07:47  <DarkSSH> there goes the 10000% speed increase ^^
12:07:51  <Bjarni> which might also be why I had so many problems with SDL for the x86 port
12:08:05  <Bjarni> DarkSSH: it's only 1000%
12:08:26  <Tron> 1000%? i doubt that very much
12:08:31  <DarkSSH> blathijs: you were busy with the makefile, right? Does this tell you anything, or what the expected outcome should be?
12:08:34  <Tron> the SDL guys are not complete morons
12:09:19  <Kuja^> <@Bjarni> but in full screen it changes OS settings to 8 bit and tells the OS about the palette <- oh ok, now i know why it is looking wired when i use alt + tab in fullscreen :D
12:09:21  <Bjarni> the 1000% speed increase was when I changed the cocoa driver to only redraw dirty rectangles instead of the whole screen all the time
12:09:50  <Tron> uh, that was a bug in your cocoa driver
12:09:56  <Bjarni> sending 32 bit to the system will make me send the whole frame each time and kill that speed
12:09:57  <Tron> the SDL driver already handles this correctly
12:10:09  <Bjarni> yeah and using 32 bit will implement that bug again
12:10:16  <Tron> huh?
12:10:33  <Tron> i don't understand
12:11:01  <Bjarni> whenever the palette changes, all the new colours needs to be redrawn
12:11:10  <Tron> and the bug being?
12:11:20  <Celestar> something with multistop is really really faulty
12:11:27  <Bjarni> which means it takes ages to copy the whole frame buffer
12:11:34  <DarkSSH> Celestar: morning :)
12:11:38  <Bjarni> and it takes even longer if it is 32 bit instead of 8 bit
12:11:43  <Tron> maybe i repeat myself, but: and the bug being?
12:11:53  <Bjarni> it takes ages
12:12:10  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: if it needs to be done because there is no other possibility it needs to be done. You can do nothing about it
12:12:26  <DarkSSH> the fact that for example Windows does this for you automatically doesn't mean it's not happening
12:12:46  <Tron> look, it's quite complicated and resource intensive to shoot somebody to the moon, but nobody says it's a bug in the universe that it so diffcult
12:13:14  <Tron> the graphics system of OSX is the universe in this case
12:13:36  <Tron> and if there is no other way, there is no other way (what genious insight!)
12:13:47  <hylje> clever
12:13:57  <Tron> that's no bug, it's just the way it is
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12:14:13  <Bjarni> it's lack of creativity
12:14:15  <Celestar> morning DarkSSH
12:14:26  <Celestar> DarkSSH: doing progress :)
12:14:38  <Celestar> bbl food
12:14:44  <DarkSSH> I read the !mail thingie. Good thing I was there in time because I don't get any email fromthere
12:14:50  <Bjarni> one solution would be to mark places with animated pixels dirty when the palette changes
12:15:14  <Tron> Bjarni: walking this list takes even longer than just unconditionally dumping the whole screen
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12:15:29  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: I don't see the big problem though. Every other OS has to do this when openttd is running in a 32bit environment
12:16:13  <Bjarni> the problem is that the cocoa driver used 75% of the time allocated to OTTD to just copy the frame when it copied the whole frame each time
12:16:19  <Bjarni> that's too slow
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12:31:05  <blathijs> DarkSSH: dunno, it might be that he didn't use those settings when making, only when make installing or something
12:31:15  <blathijs> we need a show-paths command line option :-)
12:31:45  <DarkSSH> we need a trimming on all the braindead paths :)
12:31:54  <DarkSSH> data_dir, second_data_dir? jezus
12:31:55  <blathijs> trimming?
12:32:04  <blathijs> ah :-)
12:32:12  <DarkSSH> all it needs imho is
12:32:13  <blathijs> wel, we need a data_dirs option then ;-)
12:32:14  <Bjarni> DarkSSH: the mac port uses both data paths by default
12:32:47  <blathijs> DarkSSH: enables per-user newgrf I guess
12:32:51  <Bjarni> well one of them is working dir, but still, it needs two data dirs
12:32:55  <DarkSSH> prefix is where the game gets installed with all its data files
12:33:06  <DarkSSH> custom_data_dir is for your own personal newgrf files
12:33:09  <DarkSSH> hmm not even
12:33:21  <blathijs> prefix should be prefixed to everything, not just datadir
12:33:34  <blathijs> ie, /usr/local
12:33:37  <DarkSSH> only PREFIX and PERSONAL_DIR. Prefix is where the game gets installed and Personal_dir where saves, config, newgrf gets saved
12:33:54  <DarkSSH> I think imho this is the only two you need
12:33:57  <blathijs> yes, but other stuff should be configurable too
12:34:06  <blathijs> where under prefix to install things?
12:34:18  <DarkSSH> prefix would be /usr/local/openttd
12:34:20  <DarkSSH> for example
12:34:22  <Bjarni> all the path options were added by request, so I guess some people use them. The problem is that now we got so many options that nobody can figure them out
12:34:28  <DarkSSH> it is <prefix>/openttd
12:34:39  <blathijs> /usr/local/games/openttd/data for datafiles, but /usr/local/share/icons for icons perhaps
12:35:01  <DarkSSH> /usr/local/games/openttd/data <-- yes if /usr/local/games is PREFIX
12:35:21  <blathijs> no, because icons don't go into /usr/local/games
12:35:23  <DarkSSH> ok and an icon dir for the hardcore gamers
12:35:26  <blathijs> (on debian anyway)
12:35:28  <blathijs> :-)
12:36:06  * Vornicus personally hates the very existence of /usr/local.
12:37:23  <Bjarni> LOL, nobody replied to Horse.... his question was yelling for no reply after all :)
12:37:44  <Bjarni> "I know you can't build vehicles before 1920, but how do I make vehicles, that starts before that date?"
12:37:50  <blathijs> ah, /usr/games for the binary, /usr/share/games/openttd for the data, /usr/share/pixmaps for the icons on debian :-)
12:38:06  <blathijs> So, stuff needs configurability, but the essential point is that there needs to be a sane default
12:38:18  <blathijs> you need to be able to do make install and it should Just Work
12:38:42  <peter1138> Celestar: yes, it is :/
12:38:44  <Bjarni> yeah while you should still be able to just run the game as you do now in the same dir
12:38:50  <blathijs> yup
12:38:58  <peter1138> i've got a 3 stop station with 1 full stop and 2 stops with 1 space free
12:39:12  <peter1138> i have an rv that loops but keeps trying to go to the full stop
12:39:38  <DarkSSH> blathijs: your first two would be solved by just using PREFIX=/usr/share. data goes into /usr/share/openttd/data binary to /usr/share/openttd
12:41:04  <Vornicus> Bjarni: I think his question shows a misunderstanding of why there's no vehicles before 1920.
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12:48:54  <DarkSSH>
12:49:01  <DarkSSH> ok read and weep
12:49:03  <DarkSSH> weap
12:49:04  <DarkSSH> ?
12:59:41  <Tron> the less magic in the Makefile the better
13:02:48  <DarkSSH> hmm... I am not that knowledgable in *nix conventions...but probably there needs to be a DATA_DIR or something as well cause you don't seem to put the binary in the same place as the data
13:03:53  <Tron> the binary normally goes to some directoy designated for binaries, /usr/local/games on most systems for ottd
13:04:35  <Tron> the data typically in /usr/local/share/$NAME (share, if it's machine independent data, think of NFS exported file systems)
13:04:59  * Tron is away: lunch
13:20:03  <Bjarni> <DarkSSH> <-- nice solution except it will break the bundle build on OSX
13:20:34  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: wait, rewriting
13:20:37  <Bjarni> it uses working dir for everything except the 2nd data dir and lang dir
13:21:05  <Bjarni> so I need access to set those two and still use the working dir for everything else
13:22:35  * Tron is back (gone 00:17:35)
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13:26:25  <AKX> Hey... eh, I need a bit of gameplay help... How can I build any stations near cities? I always get "refuses to allow this"..
13:26:45  <DarkSSH> Bjarni:
13:27:00  <Triffid_Hunter> AKX: that usually happens when you've blown up too many roads or buildings and the city council gets annoyed with you
13:27:13  <Vornicus> So you have to make them happy.
13:27:16  <Vornicus> Trees help.
13:27:19  <AKX> OK... Trees.
13:27:22  <AKX> How many trees?
13:27:28  <Vornicus> Cheesetons of trees.
13:27:32  <AKX> Very well.
13:28:30  <Bjarni> DarkSSH: it will still break the bundle :(
13:28:48  <tokai> DarkSSH: for morphos all must go to progdir: (aka the same dir the binary is), btw.
13:29:07  <DarkSSH> tokai: you can set that in my example
13:29:08  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: why?
13:29:09  <AKX> OK, I can't even make anymore trees.. and still no dice
13:29:10  <Tron> Bjarni: what exactly is necessary for a bundle? what is a "bundle" anyway?
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13:29:30  <Vornicus> Come back later, then.
13:29:33  <Vornicus> a bundle is a packaged binary.
13:29:49  <tokai> DarkSSH: the path will be compiled into the bin, then it will not work. there is no "." dir in MorphOS.
13:29:54  <Bjarni> the bundle is a directory containing the binary, icon, app info and so on
13:30:01  <tokai> +If
13:30:09  <Vornicus> It includes OS X binaries for PPC and x86, the public GRFs, and other data.
13:30:28  <Bjarni> other data is all the lng files
13:30:29  <Tron> Bjarni: so basically all path variable DarkSSH mentioned are set to the same value?
13:30:44  <Bjarni> no
13:30:58  <Vornicus> nope.  The bundle is actually a directory in its own right.
13:31:01  <Bjarni> everything is set to the working dir except 2nd data dir and lang path
13:31:11  <DarkSSH> tokai: hmm I might change the default setting though. setting DATA_DIR is an absolute path, and setting nothing will go to prefix/share/whatever
13:31:14  <Tron> i don't understand
13:31:19  <Tron> tokai: uh... WTF?!
13:31:22  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: you can change the bundle no?
13:31:38  <Bjarni> I can, but it would spoil the drag-n-drop installer
13:31:43  <tokai> <flood>
13:31:46  <tokai> misc:downloads/openttd-0.4.5-morphos> dir
13:31:46  <tokai>      data (dir)
13:31:51  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: you can change the drag&drop installer, no?
13:31:51  <tokai>      docs (dir)
13:31:53  <tokai>      lang (dir)
13:31:56  <tokai>      scenario (dir)
13:31:56  <tokai>      save (dir)
13:32:01  <tokai>                        hs.dat
13:32:01  <tokai>   openttd                          openttd.cfg
13:32:06  <tokai>
13:32:07  <tokai> </flood>
13:32:11  <Bjarni> DarkSSH: then people will complain for making a simple task overly complicated
13:32:18  <Bjarni> and people would include me
13:32:25  <tokai> there is nothing openttd related outside the openttd dir (similiar like the bundle on osx)
13:32:36  <DarkSSH> tokai: so it would be example1 but with some exception on the DATA_DIR=.
13:32:37  <Tron> Bjarni: i still don't understand what the problem is, please be more specific
13:32:42  <blathijs> DarkSSH: You need a BIN_DIR, as Tron suggested. Also, where is the USE_HOMEDIR option?
13:32:54  <blathijs> and I need an ICON_DIR for debian installs
13:33:03  <DarkSSH> blathijs: ..have you read the file?
13:33:08  <tokai> DarkSSH: "." doesnt work in morphos
13:33:15  <DarkSSH> there is PREFIX, DATA_DIR, PERSONAL_DIR and ICON_DIR
13:33:18  <DarkSSH> tokai: but besides that
13:33:26  <Bjarni> yeah USE_HOMEDIR went missing. You need to use that one to make the game get the homedir at runtime instead of at compile time ;)
13:33:30  <tokai> it does, but only in ixemul (unix emulation layer), but openttd doesnt use that.
13:33:37  <Bjarni> writing some stuff about bundles... one moment
13:33:44  <Tron> tokai: and how do you refer to the directory you're in atm?
13:34:04  <blathijs> DarkSSH: sorry, missed the the ICON dir
13:34:15  <tokai> Tron: "" ? :)  which translates to PROGDIR: (the dir from which a process is launched)
13:34:30  <blathijs> DarkSSH: yes, but how to tell whether to put ~/ before homedir?
13:34:41  <Tron> don't use ~
13:34:46  <Tron> that's shell magic
13:34:50  <tokai> current way works.. but if "." gets compiled into bin, it will break.
13:34:57  <blathijs> Tron: conceptually :-)
13:35:13  <DarkSSH>
13:35:19  <DarkSSH> oops
13:35:37  <blathijs> DarkSSH: also, you should specify some sane defaults, which is the key to making this work :-)
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13:35:59  <DarkSSH> blathijs: isn't your HOME_DIR an absolute path?
13:36:06  <Tron> "or example when PREFIX is /usr/local/ the OpenTTD binary gets put in there (/usr/local/openttd(.exe)" <--- not good
13:36:20  <DarkSSH> const char *homedir = getenv("HOME"); <-- this tells me /home/tfarago
13:36:22  <Tron> the default binary directory should be $PREFIX/games
13:36:24  <blathijs> DarkSSH: It should depend on the user running the game, of cours
13:36:44  <Tron> DarkSSH: this should work on all *nix work-alikes, i'm not sure about windows though
13:36:45  <DarkSSH> Tron: I am not good with defaults, just wrote something down as an example-default
13:36:53  <blathijs> Tron: I think $PREFIX/$BIN_DIR would be better..
13:37:29  <DarkSSH> but to continue my point (forgetting icon_dir) for a moment, prefix, data_dir and personal_dir should be enough
13:37:32  <Tron> BIN_DIR should be an absolute path
13:37:34  <DarkSSH> more than enough either
13:37:52  <Tron> PREFIX (defaulting to /usr/local)
13:38:04  <Tron> BIN_DIR (defaulting to $PREFIX/games)
13:38:19  <Bjarni> <-- I think this explains what goes on
13:38:22  <Tron> DATA_DIR (defaulting to $PREFIX/share/openttd)
13:38:35  <Tron> PERSONAL_DIR should probably be scrapped
13:38:57  <Tron> try to get $HOME (or similar for other systems) and if not availible use the current directory
13:39:12  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: I can live with dropping backwards compatibility if it solves the confusion we have currently
13:39:20  <hylje> $HOME/.ottd ?
13:39:25  <Tron> blathijs: what would be a good default path for icons? $PREFIX/...?
13:39:48  <blathijs> dunno, debian uses $PREFIX/share/pixmap
13:39:50  <blathijs> s
13:40:25  <Bjarni> DarkSSH: I didn't say it have to be unchanged in the makefile, just that the end result have to be the same
13:40:30  <Tron> blathijs: that sounds sensible
13:41:17  <blathijs> Tron: though FHS doesn't say anything about icons
13:41:18  <Bjarni> if we change how the bundle works, then we will drown in people asking why drag-n-drop was removed
13:41:24  <blathijs> AFAICT
13:41:50  <Tron> $PREFIX/share/pixmaps is good for me
13:41:58  <blathijs> Tron: PERSONAL_DIR should probably stay I guess
13:42:06  <blathijs> defaulting to .openttd
13:42:14  <Tron> what for?
13:42:33  <blathijs> either that or we hardcode the .openttd directory name in the Makefile
13:42:34  <Tron> multiuser systems have some kind of $HOME
13:42:43  <blathijs> and probably be prefixed (at runtime) with your homedir
13:42:45  <Tron> and single user systems usually use the current directory
13:42:58  <blathijs> I think we should have 2 sets of defaults
13:43:09  <blathijs> for installinging and for running from source dir
13:43:29  <blathijs> probably triggered from specifying a PREFIX (or not)
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13:45:03  <DarkSSH> 14:37 < Tron> PREFIX (defaulting to /usr/local)
13:45:05  <DarkSSH> 14:38 < Tron> BIN_DIR (defaulting to $PREFIX/games)
13:45:23  <DarkSSH> isn't this a bit strange? defaultly it would mean openttd binary goes into /usr/local/games/openttd(.exe)
13:45:40  <Tron> that's totally correct
13:45:44  <DarkSSH> at least on suse I've never seen a games/ directory
13:46:01  <DarkSSH> hmm, scrap that
13:46:04  * DarkSSH hits hiself
13:46:25  <Tron>      /usr/      contains the majority of user utilities and applications
13:46:26  <Tron>                 games/    useful and semi-frivolous programs
13:46:31  <Tron> *g*
13:46:40  <blathijs> Summarizing the default options: BIN_DIR=. DATA_DIR=. PERSONAL_DIR=. ICON_DIR is unused when PREFIX is unspecified. BIN_DIR=$PREFIX/games DATA_DIR=$PREFIX/share/openttd PERSONAL_DIR=$HOME/.openttd (where $HOME/ is prepended at runtime) ICON_DIR=$PREFIX/share/pixmaps when PREFIX is set to something.
13:46:42  <DarkSSH> but the binary would be in /usr/(local/)bin right?
13:46:44  <Tron> from man hier (hierachy) on my box
13:46:51  <Tron> that's for system supplied games though
13:47:00  <Tron> there's the variant in /usr/local, too
13:47:02  <blathijs> DarkSSH: no, /usr/local/games would contain the binary
13:47:03  <DarkSSH> at least that's how it is here
13:47:20  <BurtyB> FHS says /usr/local/games - "Local game binaries"
13:47:25  <DarkSSH> if I take matlab the binary is in /usr/local/bin and the data files are in /usr/local/matlab7/
13:47:41  <Tron> no, /usr/local/games is the directory for game binaries (and NO data files)
13:47:51  <Tron> DaleStan: matlab is no game
13:47:52  <blathijs> DarkSSH: I think those data files should be in /usr/local/share/matlab7
13:48:08  <blathijs> DarkSSH: since they are shared, machine independent data (I presume)
13:48:17  <Tron> s/DaleStan/DarkSSH/
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13:48:21  <DarkSSH> no they're in /usrlocal/matlab7
13:48:33  <blathijs> DarkSSH: emphasis on "Should be"
13:48:33  <Tron> that's the problem of matlab, not ours
13:49:42  <blathijs> DarkSSH: Also, don't forget to keep the $INSTALL prefix thing in
13:49:55  <blathijs> DarkSSH: I need it for making a package (and I presume other packagers too)
13:50:18  <DarkSSH> he, I am not going to change the makefile ;P
13:50:22  <Bjarni> <-- this should work as long as the C code still listens to those flags. If we use that diff, we can keep the bundle functionality and clean up Makefile.config at the same time
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13:51:04  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: there will not be SECOND_DATA_DIR AND CUSTOM_LANG_PATH
13:51:56  <Bjarni> why not. I removed them from Makefile.config to make it easier to set up your stuff
13:52:23  <blathijs> Actually I think my package could use them too...
13:52:24  <DarkSSH> because it's nonsense. We would use PERSONAL_DIR for both these two
13:52:33  <Bjarni> and other stuff
13:52:46  <Bjarni> those two excludes stuff like savedir
13:54:03  <blathijs> DarkSSH: Currently, sysadmins installing the game need to install the TTD datafiles in /usr/share/openttd, which should be the domain of packages only. Technically, the OpenTTD supplied datafiles should go into /usr/share/openttd/ and the TTD datafiles in /usr/local/share/openttd (but that's probably too much effort to be correct...)
13:54:39  <DarkSSH> whaat? That's just stupid imho
13:54:39  <Bjarni> I spend the time from 0.2.1 to say 0.3.0 or something like that to get the bundle/different installers to work in a way so people could figure out how to use them. I'm not going to change that now that it actually works
13:56:14  <Tron> CUSTOM_LANG_PATH?
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13:56:23  <Tron> that's supposed to be good for what?
13:56:40  <Bjarni> Tron: <-- read this
13:57:07  <Tron> and?
13:57:11  <Tron> i read it
13:57:15  <Tron> i don't see the point
13:58:03  <Tron> DATA_DIR is $FOOBAR/ in your case (probably starting with /opt/...)
13:58:38  <Bjarni> ...
13:59:18  <Bjarni> first of all $FOOBAR is working dir (you can place ti where you want) and 2nd, it needs two data dirs, one for user stuff and one inside the bundle
14:00:05  <Tron> are we talking about installation or not?
14:00:48  <Bjarni> we are talking about how OpenTTD uses paths to find the needed files
14:01:15  <Tron> *sigh* i give up
14:01:22  <Bjarni> make install is not used on mac and never will be
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14:02:24  <Tron> ok, so why are you participating in the discussion about installation paths at all if it's moot on OSX?
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14:02:38  <DarkSSH> lol
14:03:01  <Bjarni> because the OSX app needs to use two of the paths that was originally made for make install
14:03:02  <Tron> if it's only working on a "start at the current directory"-basis, you have no need for any fixed installation paths
14:03:22  <Bjarni> and if they are removed, the mac port will fail to find those files
14:03:27  <Vornicus> I was under the impression that the configured paths actually get hardcoded into the binary as it's built.
14:03:45  <Vornicus> this would be, you know.  "bad".
14:03:48  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: if PREFIX is not set, then everything is run from the current directory
14:04:05  <Tron> PREFIX will not end up in the binary
14:04:25  <Tron> only the specific paths, like DATA_DIR
14:04:42  <Tron> PREFIX is just there to construct default names for the other paths
14:04:45  <Bjarni> let me make one thing clear: everything runs from the working dir with the exception of those two paths. That's why those two paths needs special path setup
14:05:05  <Tron> i really don't understand
14:05:14  <Tron> if there is no fixed path for installations
14:05:20  <Tron> how do you know them then?
14:05:35  * Vornicus tries to describe the problem he sees.
14:06:04  <Bjarni> it uses those two paths compared to the working dir (relative paths)
14:06:22  <Tron> ok
14:06:29  <Vornicus> If you change the directory of something in configuration, the program has to know the new place for it, and that usually gets compiled into the binary, right?
14:06:36  <Tron> and these paths are defined by you, because you made the bundle this way
14:06:49  <Tron> so now tell me: what is the problem if you know these paths anyway?
14:06:55  <Bjarni> they are defined to fit the bundle structure, yes
14:07:17  <Tron> #define OSX
14:07:22  <Tron> uh...
14:07:25  <Tron> #ifded OSX
14:07:32  <Tron>  // OSX directory chant
14:07:35  <Tron> #else
14:07:39  <Tron>   // rest of the world
14:07:40  <Tron> #endif
14:07:55  <Vornicus> ooh, a chant.
14:08:02  <Bjarni> it affects the bundle app only, not the dedicated server
14:08:14  <Bjarni> also it needs to know $(OSXAPP) from the makefile
14:09:07  <Bjarni> I really don't see the big problem in keeping the current code for those two paths
14:09:22  <Bjarni> but I can see huge problems if we remove them
14:10:21  <Bjarni> this is weird. We got a piece of code that works really great and still some people want to remove it...
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14:12:16  <Bjarni> Maybe you should have tried to use what we got before building the bundle this way to fully understand how great an improvement it is compared to not having it
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14:13:06  <GoneWacko> oops.
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14:13:35  <DarkSSH> <-- makes sense?
14:14:30  <Tron> Bjarni: ok, now i'm fully confused, what's special about the dedicated only version? it's no bundle?
14:15:15  <Tron> DarkSSH: PREFIX should be /usr/local
14:15:25  <Tron> BIN_DIR should not contain /bin at the end
14:16:05  <Tron> and not /openttd either
14:16:25  <Tron> DATA_DIR: $PREFIX/games is for executables only
14:16:57  <Tron> it should be $PREFIX/share/openttd
14:17:39  <Tron> if PREFIX defaults to something, it cannot be not specified
14:18:28  <DarkSSH> that is true :)
14:19:28  <Tron> OSX example: BIN_DIR should probably be
14:19:55  <Bjarni> <Tron>	Bjarni: ok, now i'm fully confused, what's special about the dedicated only version? it's no bundle? <-- the dedicated server is not a bundle since it's a CLI only app. It can't start from finder
14:19:56  <DarkSSH> I just did what Bjarni had in the pastebin
14:20:26  <Tron> but i guess BIN_DIR is moot for the OSX bundle
14:20:39  <Tron> it's just an installation path which gets not stored anywhere
14:20:43  <Bjarni> <Tron>	but i guess BIN_DIR is moot for the OSX bundle <-- not needed as the bundle can handle that on it's own
14:20:49  <Tron> especially not in the ottd executable itself
14:21:07  <Tron> finally one point Bjarni and me agree on (:
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14:21:18  <Bjarni> OSX is only affected by hardcoded paths in the binary itself
14:21:34  <Tron> - BIN_DIR: the directory where the openttd binary will reside
14:21:34  <Tron>   Defaults to $PREFIX/games/openttd/ with perhaps a softlink to /usr/
14:21:39  <Tron> scrap the openttd/
14:21:43  <Bjarni> the bundle structure is created in os/macosx/Makefile
14:21:49  <Tron> $PREFIX/games directly contains executable files
14:22:05  <DarkSSH> no wonder people can't write normal software for *nix. Behold how difficult it is to agree on an install ;)
14:22:25  <Tron> %ls -l /usr/games/
14:22:26  <Tron> total 184
14:22:26  <Tron> -r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel   6600 12 Feb 08:11 bcd*
14:22:26  <Tron> -r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel   6392 12 Feb 08:11 caesar*
14:22:26  <Tron> -r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel  33620 12 Feb 08:11 factor*
14:22:49  <Tron> (just an example, i have no games installed in /usr/local, these are just the system supplied "games")
14:23:26  <Tron> ("factor" is actually a program to find the prime factors of numbers)
14:24:30  <Bjarni> DarkSSH: hehe
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14:25:21  <Bjarni> - <-- would that make it read in ./data/ and then if the first read fails to find the file?
14:25:47  <DarkSSH> yes
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14:26:05  <DarkSSH> ifyour PERSONAL_DIR is .
14:26:20  <Bjarni> ok, then it could work
14:26:42  <Bjarni> though I would need to test it to be sure
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14:27:34  <Bjarni> also the makefile should set it to $(OSXAPP)/Contents to be consistent (and easier to change the name in the future if needed)
14:28:02  <DarkSSH> DATA_DIR=$(OSXAPP)/Contents
14:28:14  <Bjarni> yeah
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14:30:17  <Bjarni> if I understand it right, I think we finally got a design we can agree on :)
14:31:07  <Bjarni> now we just need it to be coded and then we can start all over because of misunderstandings and people, who aren't here right now and stuff we didn't think about :p
14:31:10  <DarkSSH> now that I look at it it just throws out second_data_dir and custom_lang and unifies them in home_dir which is general
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14:35:05  <Bjarni> so what did we actually gain from this?
14:35:31  <Bjarni> we joined two flags into one and nothing else?
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14:37:49  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: and got rid of USE_HOMEDIR and I see a lot of source-cleanup in the fileio part of unix handling
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14:38:31  <Bjarni> well as long as you don't break anything for me and you know what you are doing...
14:41:28  <Tron> what about DEST_DIR? what's that?
14:42:01  <DarkSSH> no idea
14:42:17  <Tron> blathijs: you should know the answer
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15:22:18  <DarkSSH> Celestar: ping
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17:21:37  <DarkSSH> can I ask you one thing though? Until I sort this out, please don't commit any more accessors to 'fuel the fire'
17:21:44  <DarkSSH> oops
17:22:34  <blathijs> Tron: It's used for package installs
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17:26:09  <blathijs> Tron: You don't want to install into your real root when packaging
17:26:30  <blathijs> Tron: but you don't want to stuff something into your PREFIX either, since that will get compiled into the binary
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17:38:04  <Tron> blathijs: doesn't this happen in a chroot?
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17:58:15  <Tron> -         _map2[tile] = ((_map2[tile]&7) <= 1) ? 6 : 7;
17:58:15  <Tron> +         _map3_hi[tile] |= ((((_map3_hi[tile] & 0x70) >> 4 ) <=  2) ? 7 : 6) << 4;
17:58:17  <Tron> hmhm...
17:58:39  <Tron> is it just me or is <= 1 ? 6 : 7 something different that <= 2 ? 7 : 6 ?
17:58:44  <Tron> s/that/than/
17:59:35  <Tron> and oring...
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18:01:48  <blathijs> Tron: no
18:02:00  <blathijs> Tron: could be, but this is a poor man's chroot :-)
18:02:44  <blathijs> also this makes sure you can have your source directory outside of the chroot (or DESTDIR fake chroot)
18:03:12  <Tron> ok mr. Celestar, you have something to explain, when you're back...
18:03:47  <Tron> blathijs: interesting
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18:11:32  * peter1138 smirks at CobraA1's post
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18:12:27  <Turulo> does anyone know wich value should i change on openttd.cfg to change date limit on dedicated servers?
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18:21:30  <Turulo> i was using restart_game_date = 1
18:21:39  <Turulo> instead of restart_game_date = year
18:21:44  <Turulo> lol, sorry
18:25:45  <blathijs> Tron: See the need for the DEST_DIR var?
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18:55:00  <Tron> Bjarni: "As for C++ additions, we will have the problem with the nightly build server. It can't handle C++ code as it is now." <--- WTF?
18:55:12  <Tron> and what exactly is dmusic.cpp and bemidi.cpp then?
18:57:12  <blathijs> Tron: It can't handle it for all platforms
18:57:14  <blathijs> I think
18:57:18  <blathijs> ie it can for windows
18:57:36  <Tron> Windows and BeOS at least
18:57:43  <Tron> and BeOS is as exotic as it gets
18:58:03  <blathijs> hmm, true
18:58:05  <blathijs> dunno then
18:58:18  <blathijs> (Do we have BeOS nightlies, though?)
19:00:20  <Tron> *shrug* i never really cared for the nightly builds
19:01:00  <Tron> except when i provided some directx headers to truelight to set the stuff up
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19:02:14  <CIA-5> bjarni * r3676 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs):
19:02:14  <CIA-5> -Change: [OSX] changed info about package to how to install the game
19:02:14  <CIA-5>  the package is long gone and people don't read a doc about a missing package when they don't expect to find one
19:02:14  <CIA-5>  the doc is called install even though it's not a real install and have nothing to do with make install. People just read it the first time they see it when it's called install ;)
19:03:17  <Tron> bj
19:03:18  <Tron> Bjarni:
19:03:19  <Tron> +The game adds some items by itself when it runs, like a save folder and a setting file
19:03:20  <Tron> \ No newline at end of file
19:03:22  <Tron> twice
19:03:55  <Bjarni> are the newlines important in a text doc?
19:03:57  <Tron> ok, just once, the other file got removed
19:04:24  <blathijs> missing newlines make it impossible to just add lines without changing the last line
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19:05:11  <Bjarni> <Tron>	and what exactly is dmusic.cpp and bemidi.cpp then? <-- there are a few exceptions like those. They trigger some OS specific stuff and somehow it works, but it's not full C++ support
19:05:23  <Tron> btw: for C files it's not a valid ANSI/ISO C file, if the newline is missing
19:05:28  <Bjarni> give it a random C++ file and it will likely fail
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19:06:03  <Tron> Bjarni: that looks like "there was no need to implement it so far, so it wasn't done" to me
19:06:25  <Bjarni> more like TL got huge issues with it
19:06:30  <Tron> not like some fundamental reason why it can't/won't/whatever be done
19:06:38  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Client Quit]
19:06:59  <Bjarni> TL gave a reason, but since I forgot it, I can't tell you what it was
19:07:21  <peter1138> damn
19:07:22  <Bjarni> but he mentioned something about trying again when he get time to do so
19:07:24  <peter1138> i need rv waypoints
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19:09:02  <Bjarni> <Tron>	Bjarni: that looks like "there was no need to implement it so far, so it wasn't done" to me <-- well officially the crosscompiler for OSX can't be made, but that didn't stop us
19:09:23  <Tron> context?
19:10:00  <Bjarni> oops, meant reply to <Tron>	not like some fundamental reason why it can't/won't/whatever be done
19:10:13  * Bjarni hides
19:11:12  <Bjarni> anyway it might be possible to handle C++ code in the future, but we can't be sure until we actually got the crosscompiler to do it
19:11:53  <Bjarni> bbl dinner
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19:36:36  <DarkSSH> something's fishy
19:36:39  <DarkSSH> tfarago@Arrakis:~> ssh
19:36:41  <DarkSSH> ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
19:37:11  <DarkSSH> Celestar: pingie
19:38:03  *** mode/#openttd [+o DarkSSH] by ChanServ
19:38:17  *** mode/#openttd [-o DarkSSH] by DarkSSH
19:38:25  <DarkSSH> now how do I set autoidentify with irssi? Very annoying
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19:40:23  * Prof_Frink tries to remember how he does it
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19:41:40  <Prof_Frink> DarkSSH: see /help network
19:41:58  <DarkSSH> 20:41 No help for network
19:42:03  <Prof_Frink> -autosendcmd is the option you're after
19:42:30  <Tron> DarkSSH: works here
19:42:48  <Tron> (irssi 0.8.10)
19:43:00  <DarkSSH> hmm.. where is this autosendcmd? I think it's not a /set cmd?
19:43:27  <DarkSSH> or I have to start it with irssi -autosendcmd?
19:43:46  <DarkSSH> ah there
19:43:47  <DarkSSH> found it
19:43:53  <Prof_Frink> no, it's an option under /network
19:44:35  <DarkSSH> hmm
19:44:41  <DarkSSH> 20:44 -!- Irssi: Unknown command: network
19:45:26  <Prof_Frink> How very strange
19:45:44  <Tron> irssi version?
19:45:48  <Tron> /version
19:45:50  <DarkSSH> yes...perhaps I should compile it myself instead of relying on some crappy supplied version
19:45:52  <Prof_Frink> 0.8.9
19:45:57  <DarkSSH> 20:43 -!- Irssi: Client: irssi 0.8.9 (20031210 2316)
19:46:14  <DarkSSH> hmm 2003
19:46:25  <DarkSSH> but this is so basic, should've been in irssi for ages
19:46:50  <Prof_Frink> Maybe it was left out by whoever built it
19:46:59  <DarkSSH> let's get a newer version
19:47:01  <Tron> or it was renamed
19:47:08  <DarkSSH> brb
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19:51:59  <DarkSSH> ah that's better
19:52:12  <DarkSSH> 20:52 -!- Irssi: Client: irssi 0.8.10 (20051211 0941)
19:52:15  <DarkSSH> thx@all
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20:09:29  *** SchAmane [] has quit ["Ciao"]
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20:11:22  <hylje>  /network was /ircnet in 0.8.9
20:13:51  <Prof_Frink> aah
20:13:58  *** glx [] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox]"]
20:14:15  <Prof_Frink> silly people using old versions
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20:15:16  * Prof_Frink notes that the version here is irssi 0.8.9 (20031210 2316)
20:15:50  <hylje> you silly person!
20:16:13  <Prof_Frink> But I am not usong the version here
20:16:39  <Prof_Frink> I am using the version on frinktop upstairs
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20:46:47  <peter1138> hmm, is there any particular reason why buoy numbers start at 9? heh
20:47:13  <hylje> first 8 are taken
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20:48:53  <XeryusTC> peter1138: i have seen buoys with 7 and 8
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20:49:15  <peter1138> yes
20:49:18  <peter1138> but they *start* at 9
20:50:59  <XeryusTC> true
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20:59:32  <TL|Away> [20:00:20] <Tron> *shrug* i never really cared for the nightly builds <- and you shouldn't; I just once told people that C++ is not supported on all targets, and never will (some really are impossible). so if they start adding C++ code, they can expect the nightly platform to fail. Of course it never ever should hold back development. although it was a good one to hold back C++ in the PBS branch,
20:59:36  <TL|Away> which really sucks
20:59:44  <TL|Away> hmmz, that became long ;)
21:00:05  <hylje> too long
21:00:07  <hylje> didnt read
21:01:18  <Tron> hm, i'm not going to ask about the "impossible" part
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21:02:05  <TL|Away> Tron: hehe :) The answer is pretty simple: glibc fails on multiple targets, and then g++ fails too :p
21:02:28  <TL|Away> although with tricks and trucks g++ can be compiled, it fails over too many things
21:03:26  <Tron> good i didn't ask
21:03:42  <TL|Away> yup :)
21:04:17  <Tron> who uses glibc?
21:04:26  <TL|Away> tunnelbridge_cmd.c: In function `CmdBuildBridge':
21:04:27  <TL|Away> tunnelbridge_cmd.c:351: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned
21:04:27  <TL|Away> tunnelbridge_cmd.c:357: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned
21:04:35  <TL|Away> Just for your information
21:05:07  <Tron> 357 is bogus
21:05:10  <TL|Away> Tron: I dunno what exactly fails, never wanted to check why... partly it is the cross-gcc-compile script I use, which just refuses to go on if glibc isn't installed
21:05:20  <TL|Away> Tron: bogus or not, it is giving warnings on it :)
21:05:24  <Tron> the type of both operands to != are the same
21:05:31  <Tron> gcc 2.95?
21:05:44  <TL|Away> yup
21:05:48  <TL|Away> always tha bitch
21:05:54  <Tron> that's broken beyond repair
21:06:00  <Tron>             GetRoadBits(ti.tile) != (direction == 0 ? ROAD_Y : ROAD_X)) {
21:06:01  <Tron> ,
21:06:08  <Tron> GerRoadBits returns a RoadBits
21:06:13  *** Mukke [] has quit []
21:06:19  <Tron> and ROAD_[XY] are from that very enum
21:06:19  <TL|Away> true true.. signed unsigned blabla is rarely valid
21:06:30  <TL|Away> maybe direction and 0? :p Hehehehe :p
21:06:43  <TL|Away> (okay, shoot me :))
21:06:57  * Tron shoots TL|Away
21:07:01  <Tron> YAFIYGI
21:07:17  <TL|Away> You Are ... In Your ... ...
21:07:21  <TL|Away> I almost decrypted it
21:07:25  <TL|Away> I should work for NASA
21:07:37  <Tron> You Asked For It, You Got It
21:07:40  <TL|Away> You Asked For It, You Got It
21:07:41  <TL|Away> hehe
21:07:45  <TL|Away> just looked it up :)
21:08:16  <TL|Away> But anyway, I couldn't get g++ to work for target x86_64 on host i686
21:08:59  <TL|Away> glibc compiled, but then g++ failed... maybe I check it out some day...
21:11:10  <Tron> which version of gcc?
21:11:33  <TL|Away> 3.3 and 3.4
21:12:03  <TL|Away> I should upgrade to 4.0, maybe thatone gets the job done
21:12:24  <TL|Away> let me try to compile thatone on the nightly system
21:12:26  <TL|Away> who knows
21:12:38  <TL|Away> (on the other hand, it might break anything, but who cares about the x86_64 binaries anyway!)
21:12:45  <TL|Away> just good for 64bit warnings/errors
21:13:40  <TL|Away> takes some time to compile, hehehe
21:14:48  <Tron> hm
21:15:03  <Tron> i have gcc 4.1 20060217 sources here
21:15:33  <Tron> let's see if it can spit out a PPC cross compiler
21:16:04  <Qball> gcc 4 + x86_64 works
21:16:39  <TL|Away> Qball: you missed the talk :p
21:17:07  <Qball> like always
21:17:08  <Tron> powerpc-unknown-none
21:17:09  <Tron> hmhm
21:17:09  <TL|Away> Tron: PPC isn't that hard, GCC has a nice target system :)
21:17:21  <TL|Away> Tron: just forget making a macosx or morphos target
21:17:29  <TL|Away> GCC refused most of the patches for the target
21:17:49  <TL|Away> So you need the source for Apple and stuff :s Sucky world ;)
21:17:53  *** sw4y [] has quit ["Odletam do paralelniho vesmiru..."]
21:17:58  <Tron> *** Configuration powerpc-unknown-none not supported
21:18:01  <Tron> uh...
21:18:04  <TL|Away> lol
21:18:10  <Tron> what does not support it?
21:18:16  <Tron> ./configure ran fine
21:18:16  <TL|Away> powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu (works)
21:18:57  <TL|Away> yeah, it can spit out warnings and errors at weird places
21:19:02  <TL|Away> one target once gave the error at around 50%
21:19:06  <TL|Away> liberty I believe failed
21:19:09  <TL|Away> really nice
21:20:20  <Tron> powerpc-unkown-freebsd
21:20:26  <Tron> if this works, i'm impressed
21:20:44  <Tron> Please update *-*-freebsd* in gcc/config.gcc
21:20:47  <Tron> interesting
21:20:57  <Tron> update what and how in particular?
21:20:57  <TL|Away> lol
21:21:16  <tokai> TL|Away: morphos stuff actually should build with default ppc/elf target stuff
21:21:26  <TL|Away> tokai: yeah, but not optimized
21:21:34  <TL|Away> which makes the 4.0 binaries more crappy then the 2.95
21:21:36  <tokai> right
21:22:37  <TL|Away> tokai: and the header files you gave me won't work on it I guess  :)
21:22:45  <TL|Away> which you need for all the morphos stuff
21:23:00  <TL|Away> morphos with his 2 systems ;)
21:23:20  <TL|Away> tokai: is morphos an active system, or is it dying? (no offense ment btw :) Just I never saw it running on a PC)
21:24:17  <Tron> fascinating
21:24:17  <TL|Away> blathijs: no, we don't have BeOS target, I wanted to, but nobody supplied me with the needed libs and header-files :)
21:24:30  <Tron> ppc-freebsd gives a strange error, ppc-linux seems to work
21:24:42  <TL|Away> September-13-2004
21:24:42  <TL|Away> Update: "new" website online. More to come.
21:24:42  <TL|Away> (from
21:24:46  <Bjarni> we also stop having BeOS binary releases since nobody compiled them
21:24:48  <TL|Away> I take that as a dead thing :)
21:24:57  <Tron> there's no real difference between them from a compiler's point of view, is there?
21:25:18  <TL|Away> Tron: between ppc-freebsd and ppc-linux?
21:25:24  <Tron> yes
21:25:41  <TL|Away> I assume there isn't, but I have no idea in detail
21:26:12  <Tron> ../.././gcc/gengtype-lex.l:31:27: gengtype-yacc.h: No such file or directory
21:26:15  <Tron> interesting
21:26:42  <TL|Away> gcc doesn't need any external header files, so that is really bad :)
21:26:53  <TL|Away> glibc starts needed external header-files (of the target itself)
21:27:10  <tokai> TL|Away: its big endian.. and pretty much limited to Pegasos PPC and Amiga PPC type computers atm., well.. and it's dead since years of course ;)
21:27:28  <TL|Away> tokai: yeah, that is what I thought, so it is nice to know tha tfor sure :)
21:27:58  <TL|Away> also, what is the difference between Amiga and the other?
21:28:17  <TL|Away> just the hardware I assume?
21:28:20  <tokai> a apple port would be possible, but apple switches to x86.. so it doesnt make much sense anymore:)
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21:29:07  <Tron> maybe gcc is more happy if i feed it a bison
21:29:09  <tokai> TL|Away: yes. on amiga ppc was a big patch.. and max 604@240Mhz... pegasos is like a real pc, just with powerpc cpu.. and up to g4@1Ghz currently
21:29:26  <TL|Away> I see :)
21:30:05  <tokai> the speed blows u away:)
21:30:18  <tokai> have osx on a 400 mhz faster machine and it crawls.
21:30:32  <TL|Away> I should rebuild this nightly stuff from scratch, it is a bit out-dated...
21:30:34  <tokai> when some program needs more than 2 seconds to load i get impatient already:)
21:30:45  <TL|Away> hehe
21:30:48  <TL|Away> so they did a nice job :0
21:30:56  <TL|Away> tokai: does it has a 'dl' implementation?
21:31:09  <tokai> TL|Away: well, but we have no memory protection.. old amigaos heritage:)
21:31:11  <Qball> lol.
21:31:28  <tokai> TL|Away: yes and no.
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21:31:37  <TL|Away> lol
21:31:55  <tokai> TL|Away: there is no public one.
21:32:22  <tokai> the kernel itself has memory protection, but the user space doesn'T else non of the old amiga stuff could run.
21:32:25  <TL|Away> tokai: but there already exists an implementation, tha is good news :)
21:32:44  <TL|Away> tokai: 'dl' is about dynamic loading, I don't care if it is memory protected or not ;)
21:33:05  <Tron> hm, with a bison gcc seems to be more happy
21:33:12  <TL|Away> Tron: lol :)
21:33:13  <tokai> TL|Away: but i don't know how good it is:)
21:33:31  <TL|Away> Tron: you really use: a bison. that makes me think of the animal, I see it in front of me :) That makes me laugh :)
21:33:36  <Tron> although it explicitly told me it doesn't necessarily need one
21:33:36  <tokai> Tron: weird.. u would think apache would be happy with bison :)
21:33:39  <Tron> *shrug*
21:33:41  <TL|Away> tokai: k :) Maybe we check it out one time :)
21:33:53  <Tron> TL|Away: that was intended (:
21:34:17  <TL|Away> Tron: hehe :) Okay, then we at least are in eachothers spectrum (wavelengths, whiieeee ) :p
21:34:58  <Tron> now let's wait for half an hour till gcc is compiled...
21:35:08  <TL|Away> hehe, gcc always is fast...
21:35:09  <TL|Away> 3 phases
21:35:10  <Tron> considering that tcc needs less than 10 seconds *sigh*
21:35:10  <TL|Away> whoho
21:35:18  <TL|Away> Tron: but tcc here fails to give gdb symbols
21:35:21  <Tron> 3? it's a cross compiler
21:35:26  <TL|Away> really annoying (and it also makes it useless)
21:35:55  <TL|Away> btw, compiling times of tcc are amazing! It is fast......
21:36:15  <TL|Away> saidly their cross-compile support is non-existing :)
21:36:25  <Tron> it's relocation is seriously broken on FreeBSD
21:36:28  <TL|Away> you can compile it via mingw, or on linux... but not on linux for minw ;)
21:36:52  <TL|Away> so clearly I was not the only one with problems :)
21:36:57  <Tron> it produces binaries which make the linker think that main is at 2 times the address of main
21:37:10  <TL|Away> Igor2 tried to mail the people, but they weren't really helpful
21:37:17  <TL|Away> auch
21:37:29  <Tron> s/linker/loader/
21:37:30  <TL|Away> (okay, they told him to fuck off)
21:37:44  <Tron> uh...
21:37:51  <TL|Away> ("it worked here the last time, and if it doesn't work for you, make a patch for it.")
21:37:53  <TL|Away> very helpful :)
21:38:30  <Tron> let's hope compiling gcc uses less than 300MB disk space
21:38:30  <TL|Away> oh well, it might be udnerstanding, if you don't have a big community ...
21:38:38  <TL|Away> lol, doubtful
21:38:56  <TL|Away> btw, what did suprise me is that gcc and tcc are the only C compilers I could find out there.... yeah, one other, which failed compiling at all...
21:39:04  <TL|Away> are there really so little?
21:39:09  <Tron> tcc is written by the same maniac who writes qemu
21:39:09  <TL|Away> (or does Gentoo just not support them ;))
21:39:18  <TL|Away> ah, that explains ;)
21:39:20  <hylje> intel c compiler?
21:39:27  <Tron> c compilers? there are quite some
21:39:37  <Tron> gcc, tcc, djgpp, tendra, icc, lcc, msvc
21:39:39  <TL|Away> Gentoo Portage has only 2...
21:39:51  <TL|Away> MSVC, lol, Tron, we were talking about COMPILERS
21:39:55  <Tron> just of the top of my head
21:39:57  <TL|Away> not stupid pieces of software :p
21:40:00  <TL|Away> k, let me check some
21:40:12  <TL|Away> saw djgpp before, it has a very nice docmentation of their binaries!
21:40:16  <TL|Away> (PE COFF mostly, very nice)
21:40:41  <Tron> gmake[2]: *** Keine Regel vorhanden, um das Target »/usr/local/bin/ppc-linux-as«
21:41:03  <Tron> i guess that's the nice way of telling me "you need the binutils first, you dumbass"
21:41:14  <TL|Away> yup :p
21:41:35  <TL|Away> ah, gentoo has icc, which is masked... :)
21:42:12  <TL|Away> DJGPP is a complete 32-bit C/C++ development system for Intel 80386 (and higher) PCs running DOS
21:42:13  <TL|Away> lol
21:42:56  <peter1138> yeah
21:42:57  <Tron> yep, _the_ compiler if you want to target DOS
21:43:21  <TL|Away> hehe
21:43:23  <TL|Away> yeah
21:43:24  <TL|Away> maybe not
21:43:27  <peter1138> usually uses good ol' DOS4GW, heh
21:43:44  <hylje> i think compilers are generally software
21:43:48  <TL|Away> I hadn't heard that name in a long long long time
21:43:55  <hylje> havent seen or heard about hardware compilers :|
21:43:56  <peter1138> heh, people still use dos ttd...
21:44:09  <peter1138> hylje: what?
21:46:18  <TL|Away> anyway, I got to go
21:46:19  <TL|Away> night all
21:46:37  <Matt-W> wow DOS4GW
21:46:37  <Tron> hylje: well, there's stuff like that
21:46:42  <Matt-W> such memories...
21:47:06  <Tron> hylje: you put in a specification and it generates a plan for an FPGA or the whole show
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22:52:13  <XeryusTC> interesting...
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22:53:12  <Tron> checking for C compiler default output file name... configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
22:53:15  <Tron> fascinating...
22:54:00  <SpComb> what's the point in a compiler that can't create executables?
22:55:18  <tokai> the linker creates the executable, not the compiler ;)
22:55:20  * tokai runs
22:56:51  <coppercore> rofl
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23:00:41  <SpComb> true
23:02:44  <Born_Acorn> DarkSSH, this "action 13" you have planned, do you think it could support newgrf airport graphics changing, for different styles?
23:07:24  <DarkSSH> changing? like over-time?
23:07:37  <DarkSSH> or just other types of graphics for airports?
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23:11:27  <Born_Acorn> Other types of graphics for airports.
23:11:49  <Born_Acorn> Like "Dulton Airport" has a different graphics set than "Mulberry Airport".
23:12:07  <DarkSSH> newstations?
23:12:27  <Born_Acorn> Pretty much, yes
23:12:56  <DarkSSH> as soon as peter makes support for it I think it might be possible although I have no idea as of yet how
23:24:20  <Prof_Frink> Sionide: Yes, I know about openTTD :p
23:24:54  <Sionide> oh
23:24:58  <Sionide> course
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23:55:30  <DarkSSH> ls
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