Log for #openttd on 30th March 2006:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> AAHH... elrails bug...
00:05:20  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: que?
00:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> when a station platform is part electrified, and part not
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00:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> and a train comes from the non-electrical part
00:05:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> it does not go to the end of the platform
00:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> but it stops at the end of the non-electrified part
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00:07:50  <Sacro> hmm, sounds like a bug
00:08:08  <RichK> what sort of train? electric or diesel?
00:08:48  <glx> non electric I guess
00:10:10  <Sacro> i just got a newgrf (ukrs) glitch
00:10:39  <RichK> new airport suggestions....
00:12:41  * glx likes them
00:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> well... if it's going on non-electric lines, it is obviously a non-electric train
00:12:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> (steam in this case)
00:13:22  <glx> it looks like a wrong end-of-line detection
00:16:00  <glx> hmm doesn't happen for me
00:17:24  <Born_Acorn> RichK! Realistic! Long n thin, with paralel taxiways!
00:17:30  <Born_Acorn> :p
00:17:49  <RichK> im thinking of a better 3rd design... hold on
00:18:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> glx: that was originally an elrails platform, that i partially downgraded to normal rails
00:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> 2 tiles long
00:21:03  <glx> still not happen (I've build a 2 tiles long elrail station, then build a 1 tile normal station over it)
00:22:16  <Sacro> hmm, my trains arent unloading fully
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00:22:29  <Sacro> does unload actually pay me? or will it drop the stuff at the station?
00:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> strange... it does not let me build stations over stations...
00:27:45  <Sacro> ive got trains unwilling to unload :(
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00:30:44  <RichK__> bleh... lost my link there
00:30:50  <RichK__> nick RichK
00:31:09  <Sacro> you need / :)
00:31:25  <RichK__> i did... 2nd time
00:31:37  <RichK__> didnt work, cos my crash has left RichK in existence
00:31:50  <glx> msg nickserv recover nick pass
00:32:07  <RichK__> i dont think ive registered
00:32:35  <RichK__> anyway... i have posted a revised type 3 airport
00:32:42  <glx> so wait until it disappear
00:32:53  <RichK__> same link
00:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK: the runways look short, are they for small airport things only?
00:36:33  <RichK__> nope, but 5 is only 1 short of 6 for a city airport
00:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> small is 4?
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00:44:46  <Sacro2> whoops
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00:46:13  <CIA-5> belugas * r4162 /branch/32bpp/ (openttd.dsp openttd.vcproj): [32bpp]-CodeChange : Add missing files to MS Project and Workspace files
00:47:20  <Sacro2> he's up late
00:48:48  <CIA-5> belugas * r4163 /trunk/ (openttd.dsp openttd.vcproj): CodeChange : Add missing file to MS Project and Workspace files
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00:55:48  <RichK67> hi guys - type 3 airport now has extended 6 length runways
00:55:59  <Sacro2> night all
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06:13:02  <peter1138> hmmm
06:13:05  <peter1138> ...
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06:50:54  <MiHaMiX> morning
06:50:57  <MiHaMiX> hi peter1138 :)
06:53:20  <peter1138> hi
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07:15:49  <Celestar> morning
07:16:02  <peter1138> 'lo
07:16:10  <Celestar> whtas new?
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07:23:30  <Celestar> I need opinions on the multistop stuff
07:24:50  <Celestar> orudge: !!! I can't log in using konqueror :(
07:34:42  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: use firefox in this case :)
07:35:31  <Celestar> well.
07:35:40  <Celestar> that's a workaround no solution.
07:36:57  <MiHaMiX> :)
07:38:05  <Celestar> hmm.
07:38:15  <Celestar> Opteron's new socket F will have 1207 pins.
07:38:33  <Celestar> The first Microprocessor I owned had 40 pins.
07:40:35  <MiHaMiX> :DDDD
07:41:41  <Celestar> I mean this is nuts :P
07:41:57  <Celestar> prolly 50% of these pins are power supply
07:43:04  *** jax [] has joined #openttd
07:43:32  <jax> hey
07:43:47  <jax> any ai devs here?
07:44:07  <Celestar> you mean ottd AI?
07:44:50  <Celestar> TL|Away and igor. but they're both not here atm
07:45:21  <jax> what about multiplayer AI
07:45:30  <jax> i am thinking of one:p
07:46:05  <Celestar> what do you mean?
07:46:18  <jax> a computer connecting to multiplayer games
07:46:25  <jax> and building a company
07:46:28  <jax> such
07:46:50  <jax> so it would introduce another level into the game
07:46:57  <jax> a busnes management level
07:47:07  <jax> bsiness
07:47:08  <jax> like
07:47:14  <jax> you would hire agents
07:47:23  <jax> and get them budget and deadlines
07:47:26  <jax> etc
07:47:49  <Celestar> there are such efforts. as I said, ask TL|Away when he's back
07:48:00  <jax> okay
07:48:01  <jax> :)
07:49:04  <Celestar> good :)
07:51:17  <jax> so what else is up
07:52:45  <Celestar> not much.
07:52:52  <Celestar> merged elrails yesterday evening
07:54:08  <jax> why is the 4.7 doing so much desync?
07:56:21  <Celestar> it IS?
07:56:35  <jax> wel, for me atleas
07:56:36  <jax> t
07:56:45  <Celestar> any special circumstances?
07:56:58  <jax> it seemst that if multiple players try to join a multiplayer game i get dropped via desync
07:57:11  <jax> if i rejoin it says 3 clients ahead
07:57:42  <Celestar> more desyncs than in 0.4.6 ?
08:02:17  <Celestar> is this a yes or a no?
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08:05:12  <jax> yes
08:05:18  <jax> didnt get any desync back in 4.5
08:05:39  <jax> it would be nice to see what caused the desync
08:05:44  <Tobin> Celestar: "merged elrails yesterday evening: <--- Hooray!
08:06:08  <Celestar> jax: well you CAN.
08:06:16  <Celestar> jax: but the problem is to interpret the data.
08:06:49  <Celestar> jax: do you have an example savegame?
08:07:09  <Celestar> it's a hell of a job to find desyncs with example savegames
08:07:52  <jax> no
08:08:14  <jax> well
08:08:26  <jax> maybe a cuick rejoin button would be great workaround
08:08:33  <jax> or automatic rejoin
08:08:38  <jax> what ja think?
08:08:48  <Celestar> that's not the deal.
08:08:55  <jax> hwy
08:08:56  <jax> why
08:08:57  <Celestar> the deal is to elimate desync.s
08:09:08  <Celestar> desyncs are not (usually) a slow connection
08:09:29  <Kjetil> hm...
08:09:39  <Celestar> jax <= read my post here
08:10:19  <Celestar> if you wanna help, uncomment functions.h line 84 and tell me where server and clients run out of sync :)
08:10:20  <jax> thats the same server:)
08:11:06  <peter1138> moo
08:11:54  <jax> you refer to //#define RANDOM_DEBUG ?
08:12:30  <Celestar> jax: yes.
08:12:33  <jax> so desync is basically a random issue?
08:12:37  <Celestar> jax: yes.
08:12:41  <jax> oh:)
08:12:49  <Celestar> desync is usually a random number desync
08:13:13  <jax> each client should have same random number que?
08:13:33  <Celestar> exactly
08:14:00  <Celestar> peter1138: what was the reason why we had InteractiveRandom?
08:14:36  <jax> how does the game detect desync?
08:16:10  <Celestar> simple. we check the random seeds from time to time.
08:16:32  <jax> :)
08:16:47  <Celestar> they must be identical.
08:16:52  <jax> what was the last solved desync problem
08:16:59  <Celestar> not sure
08:17:22  <jax> what fixes have fixing the desync included earlier
08:17:54  <Celestar> r3565, r3352 ...
08:18:02  <jax> cant the random be generatoed out of time hashes?
08:18:06  <Celestar> we have very few desyncs in 0.4.5 (close to none)
08:18:20  <Celestar> jax: not unless you sync all system clocks to GPS or UTC.
08:18:26  <jax> i mean
08:18:29  <jax> game time:)
08:18:40  <Celestar> ..
08:18:44  <jax> the same?
08:18:45  <Celestar> there was some reason why we didn't do that.
08:18:51  <Celestar> I just can'T remember.
08:18:54  <jax> lag?
08:19:15  <Celestar> do you have ANY multiplayer savegame that did desync later?
08:19:35  <jax> i have only autosave.. and i cannot remmeber which desynced so no
08:19:53  <Celestar> then just gimme the latest autosave.
08:19:59  <Celestar> just something with plenty of vehicles on it
08:20:02  <jax> the latest didnt desync:)
08:20:12  <Celestar> :P
08:20:13  <jax> i will save the next time
08:20:16  <jax> :)
08:20:29  <jax> what could theoretically go wrong?
08:21:02  <Celestar> good question :)
08:21:11  <Celestar> if I knew, I wouldn't need your savegame :P
08:22:01  <jax> :D
08:22:07  <jax> btw
08:22:09  <Celestar> there is one desync issue with Toyland but I assume you are not using it :)
08:22:15  <jax> no
08:22:19  <jax> only temprate
08:22:27  <jax> i dont like other gfx
08:22:34  <jax> the classic is the best
08:23:08  <Celestar> do you have any newgrfs loaded?
08:23:28  <jax> you mean?
08:24:00  <Celestar> newgrfs .. other vehicle sets and stuff
08:24:05  <jax> no
08:24:14  <jax> standard i guess
08:26:44  <Celestar> weird
08:27:49  <jax> why weird
08:32:25  <peter1138> resyncing the random seed won't really help
08:32:48  <peter1138> it will still have done something wrong
08:33:02  <peter1138> you'll just end up not knowing that something is wrong
08:33:24  <peter1138> speaking of something wrong...
08:33:29  * peter1138 ponders a mcdonalds breakfast
08:35:29  * peter1138 mutters at other people's C code
08:35:43  <peter1138> (not in ottd, heh)
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08:42:55  *** mode/#openttd [-o Darkvater] by Darkvater
08:42:59  <jax> hm
08:43:03  <jax> anu forum admins here?
08:43:50  <orudge> Hello
08:43:50  <orudge> Yes
08:44:00  <jax> well
08:44:11  <jax> can you resend activation to zen/
08:44:16  *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
08:44:23  <orudge> Is zen your username?
08:44:25  <orudge> Or what's your username?
08:44:26  <jax> jub
08:44:28  <orudge> OK
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08:46:16  <orudge> Ehm, jax, the "jub" username is already active
08:46:22  <orudge> I notice there's a "zen" username too, though
08:46:43  <orudge> I can enable "zen" if you want
08:47:04  <jax> :D
08:47:06  <jax> jes
08:47:10  <jax> zen is the username
08:47:19  <jax> jub was ment to be a yes to your question
08:47:20  <jax> :)
08:47:29  <jax> sorry for that
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08:48:03  <zproxy> :)
08:48:29  <orudge> OK, I've activated zen
08:48:51  <zproxy> great:)
08:49:00  <orudge> Oh, by the way
08:49:05  <orudge> Your e-mail was over quota
08:49:10  <orudge> host" target="_blank">[" target="_blank">] said: 552 5.2.2 Over
08:49:10  <orudge>     quota (in reply to RCPT TO command)
08:49:32  <zproxy> even still?
08:49:41  <orudge> Don't know now
08:49:46  <orudge> but when it tried to send out the e-mail
08:49:48  <orudge> anyway, brb for now
08:49:55  <zproxy> some fool sent 9 mb in school
08:50:00  <zproxy> i dint even noticed until now
08:50:09  <zproxy> so my mailbox was full for a week
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08:57:56  <Darkvater> morning@all
08:58:07  <Darkvater> orudge: does rdtsc work for you on OS/2?
09:00:22  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: hi
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09:03:11  <Darkvater> hi
09:06:11  <zen--> hello
09:08:46  <CIA-5> tron * r4164 /trunk/ (elrail.c openttd.c road_cmd.c tunnelbridge_cmd.c): Use acessor functions
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09:12:36  <Celestar> back
09:12:58  * peter1138 sighs
09:13:11  <Celestar> hi Darkvater
09:13:24  <Celestar> people we are reported to have desync problems in 0.4.6+
09:16:15  <orudge> Darkvater: Not tried, shall do that when I'm hope
09:16:19  <orudge> Going home in an hour or so
09:16:39  * Celestar thinks he's on everyone's IGNORE list
09:16:57  <Darkvater> hi Celestar
09:17:02  <Darkvater> you're off now :P
09:17:19  <MiHaMiX> :DD
09:20:57  <Celestar> lol cool
09:23:06  <zen--> no you aint, i hear ya:)
09:23:21  <zen--> i think the AI should not be written just in C
09:23:24  <MiHaMiX> 5
09:23:27  <MiHaMiX> oops
09:26:18  <CIA-5> celestar * r4165 /trunk/elrail.c: -Do not use GetBridgeAxis on bridge ramps (request by Tron)
09:28:43  <Darkvater> Celestar: there've been always reports of desyncs in any version
09:28:57  <Darkvater> about 80% of the time it's incompatible newgrf settings
09:29:04  <CIA-5> tron * r4166 /trunk/ (9 files): Sprinkle several map accessors with assert()s
09:29:48  <MiHaMiX> wow, what a development speed :)
09:30:10  <MiHaMiX> 3 commits within 20 minutes
09:30:53  <Qball> newgrf is an easy thing to blaim all problems on, isn't it?
09:31:30  <Darkvater> Qball: yep, and mostly it's even right
09:31:38  <Qball> pffff
09:31:43  <Darkvater> at least until peter1138 saves newgrf-info ;)
09:31:49  <Celestar> Darkvater: in that case, the use told me that no newgrifs were loaded.
09:31:52  <Celestar> user*
09:32:01  <Qball> I have a special clean checkout for playing online
09:32:07  <Qball> and I have a lot of dsyncs
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09:32:15  <Qball> no newgrf there
09:32:24  <Qball> but I gave up on bug reporting to you guy's
09:32:40  <Celestar> where a bug reports?
09:33:01  <Darkvater> Qball: I'm just saying. cause EVERY time I start to debug a so-called desync game it doesn't desync for me
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09:33:31  <Celestar> we need to implement a checker that verifies that all clients (and the server) have the same files loaded.
09:33:33  <Qball> so the report is false.
09:33:38  <Qball> that's a way of seing it
09:33:51  <Celestar> yes and no.
09:33:59  <Darkvater> although I do think that something crucial and very small is not saved with the savegame because desyncs usually happen when you join a game that has been running for some time
09:34:03  * Qball is listening to Simone, Nina - Go To Hell
09:34:50  <Celestar> Darkvater: I tend to agree.
09:34:53  <Celestar> but how to find it?
09:35:18  <Darkvater> :P
09:35:38  <peter1138> fatal error LNK1000: unknown error; consult documentation for technical support options
09:35:41  <peter1138> o_O
09:35:49  <Darkvater> Hd full?
09:35:50  <Celestar> HAHA
09:36:05  <peter1138> nope
09:36:08  <Celestar> one MIGHT think that a full drive is known problem.
09:36:14  <peter1138> hmm, minilzo.obj
09:36:45  <Darkvater> Celestar: I think it could be done by printing out every random-number and which function it was called from. Make server&client sync on every frame and when it desyncs try to figure out what the callstack was and where things differed
09:36:50  <Darkvater> NOT easy :(
09:37:01  <Celestar> Darkvater: the first thing is easy.
09:37:06  <Celestar> the second is rather easy too
09:37:17  <peter1138> just rather a lot of dat
09:37:19  <peter1138> +a
09:37:26  <Celestar> diff is your friend
09:37:43  <Celestar> #ifdef ENABLE_NETWORK_SYNC_EVERY_FRAME
09:37:47  <peter1138> newgrf_engine.h:15: warning: 'struct SpriteGroup' declared inside parameter list
09:37:54  * peter1138 wonders what he did wrong there... o_O
09:37:59  <Darkvater> Celestar: diff is not enough. You HAVE to look at the code
09:38:06  <peter1138> oh
09:38:09  <CIA-5> egladil * r4167 /branch/32bpp/ (25 files): [32bpp] -Added 32bpp versions of AddSortableSpriteToDraw() and AddChildSpriteScreen().
09:38:30  <Celestar> Darkvater: I mean diffing the RNG outputs.
09:38:39  <Darkvater> Celestar: and even then you're not sure that it wasn't caused by some buffer-overflow 20 minutes earlier
09:38:52  <Celestar> Darkvater: that'S the bigger problem.
09:38:56  <Celestar> Darkvater: there is another way tho.
09:39:22  <Celestar> make a savegame every day.
09:39:38  <Celestar> binary-compare these savegames.
09:39:48  <peter1138> that doesn't help if it's something that isn't saved
09:39:50  <Celestar> if the desync happens and savegames are identical, we miss stuff
09:40:41  <Celestar> and if that doesn't help, then hell, save every frame.
09:40:50  <Darkvater> Celestar: o_O
09:41:05  <Celestar> you'd just have to disable compression.
09:41:08  <orudge> Right, time to go
09:41:09  * orudge goes
09:41:12  <Darkvater> bye
09:41:15  <egladil> hmm. header dependencies makes the commit look much larger than it was...
09:41:15  *** orudge [] has quit ["To the batmobile!"]
09:41:16  <Celestar> bye :)
09:41:26  <Celestar> egladil: :)
09:41:31  <Darkvater> good luck doing this for 30-game years
09:41:41  <Darkvater> and having enough HD-space for it
09:41:45  <Celestar> ok how big is a savegame=
09:41:45  <Celestar> ?
09:41:53  <Celestar> lets say 500kB
09:41:55  <zen--> or maybe
09:42:06  <zen--> the server should seed the random
09:42:10  <Darkvater> I was 1-frame debugging a running networkg-game, and ly that took 200MB after a few years of gameplay
09:42:23  <Celestar> Darkvater: I'll needa do it on the cluster during a weekend or something then.
09:42:36  <peter1138> zen--: it does
09:42:51  <Celestar> got 1TB of RAID0 scratch space there. and Quad Opterons. should work out.
09:43:51  <SpComb> hmm
09:44:13  <Celestar> run 2 companies, and have 2 CPUS handle the save-thread
09:45:01  <SpComb> all for openttd <3
09:45:09  <Celestar> yeah \o/
09:49:35  <zen--> but
09:49:37  <zen--> in the meantime
09:49:50  <zen--> could you introduce rejoin button on desync dialog?
09:49:50  <zen--> :D
09:50:02  <zen--> or console command
09:50:05  <zen--> reconnect
09:50:16  <zen--> i'd like that:)
09:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: have you recognized my elrails problem i stated earlier?
09:51:09  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: no?
09:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> [30.03. 02:07] <Eddi|zuHause2> when a station platform is part electrified, and part not
09:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> [30.03. 02:07] * CobraA3 ( has joined #openttd
09:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> [30.03. 02:07] <Eddi|zuHause2> and a train comes from the non-electrical part
09:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> [30.03. 02:07] <Eddi|zuHause2> it does not go to the end of the platform
09:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> [30.03. 02:08] <Eddi|zuHause2> but it stops at the end of the non-electrified part
09:52:01  <Sacro> i remember that conversation
09:52:18  <Celestar> that was in the middle of the night!
09:52:22  <Celestar> :q
09:52:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you do have a log i assume ;)
09:53:02  <Celestar> theoretically ;)
09:54:13  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: problem noted. please add a bug report.
09:54:18  <Darkvater> who in their right mind would build a station where the first 2 tiles are elraila nd the other two are not?
09:54:27  <Darkvater> I say f8ck those users
09:54:39  <Celestar> Darkvater: you seem rather radical today ;)
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09:54:49  <Darkvater> coffee does that to you :P
09:55:04  <peter1138> woo, it compiled
09:55:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is not "who does this", the problem is "it is possible, so there will be someone who does it" (murphy
09:55:23  <Eddi|zuHause> )
09:55:31  <Celestar> yes
09:56:11  <Darkvater>  England Limits Water Use as Worst Drought in a Century Looms
09:56:13  <Darkvater> wow
09:56:26  <Darkvater> Eddi|zuHause: no. Stupidity should not be encouraged
09:56:44  <zen--> :Q
09:57:02  <peter1138> smelly brits
09:57:02  <zen--> you workng fulltime on tt?
09:57:12  <peter1138> i wish :/
09:57:13  <Darkvater> I'd consider this a bug only if the train was a mixed consist and then this happened. Not otherwise
09:57:27  <Darkvater> otherwise the game's working perfectly according to specs
09:57:30  <Celestar> Darkvater: it happens always afaik :(
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09:59:15  <zen--> has any anticheat system been introduced?
09:59:28  <Sacro> cant a train freewheel when it runs out of electric lines?
09:59:37  <Celestar> Sacro: i've disabled that.
09:59:52  <zen--> hm
09:59:56  <peter1138> no, because you don't know if it'll get power again
09:59:59  <peter1138> and then it'll be stuck
10:00:16  <Celestar> for the reasons peter1138 mentioned
10:00:24  <Celestar> and it is not a very realistic option.
10:00:33  <Celestar> trains don't freewheel in service
10:01:11  <Sacro> Celestar: ok
10:01:14  <Sacro> gtg, bbl
10:01:15  *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-200-149.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit ["Sacro has no reason"]
10:01:19  <Darkvater> zen--: yes. Hopefully the actions are protected sufficiently, meaning that if someone does something illegal he/she will desync immediately because the other players cannot execute that action in his name
10:02:23  <Darkvater> you CAN annoy people though ;)
10:04:58  <peter1138> hmm 65kb
10:07:33  <Celestar> your diff?
10:11:26  <Celestar>  * @note Assumes a byte has 8 bits <= nice !
10:12:12  <peter1138> yeah
10:15:23  <zen--> me?:D
10:15:27  <Darkvater> if that weren't true we could just as well throw out the whole codebase
10:15:31  <zen--> or what you ment by annoy
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10:16:10  <Darkvater> anyone with enough VBA knowledge to tell me how to focus on a cell and scroll there automatically in excel?
10:17:09  <Naksu> A?
10:17:26  <zen--> .Select() ?
10:17:26  <Darkvater> VB for Applications
10:17:38  <Darkvater> that doesn't scroll there
10:17:41  <zen--> .Selection = true ?
10:18:00  <zen--> vba sux anyways... all they do is teach this in colleges
10:18:00  <zen--> :D
10:19:03  <Celestar> brb loo
10:23:41  <Darkvater> of cousre it sucks. But that doesn't havelp i f you have to use it
10:24:05  * Celestar hands Darkvater a new keyboard
10:25:01  <Naksu> vba sounds like something that sucks more than the xml database
10:25:10  <Darkvater> brb, can't kill excel help :s
10:25:11  <Naksu> "The database design will be fully extensible. All tables will have only a few columns (such as ID's and created dates), and the rest of the data will be stored in an XML-formatted TEXT column"
10:25:33  <Jang-> killall -9 excel_help
10:26:31  <Naksu> since you're already assuming *nix, you should also assume he's using man
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10:33:16  <Jang-> Celestar: i think i've noticed a small niggle in elrail
10:33:29  <Celestar> Jang-: yes?
10:33:39  <Jang-> if you have an electrified track leading to non-electrified, the electric train will suddenly stop
10:33:46  <Jang-> as if it's hit a brick wall
10:34:08  <Jang-> where as normally, there'll be a slight slow down as the train approaches the end of the track
10:34:20  <Qball> it should just roll out over the non-electrified until it's stuck
10:34:21  <Jang-> just looks a bit odd
10:34:31  <Qball> or hits electrified again :D
10:34:39  <Celestar> Qball: and then? how do you get it moving?
10:34:47  <Qball> Celestar: not :D
10:34:47  <Jang-> heh, driver gets out and pushes
10:35:04  <Celestar> Jang-: can you post a report?
10:35:11  <Jang-> yeah, sure, where?
10:35:49  *** Jang- is now known as Jango
10:36:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... how long does it normally take to recieve the confirmation that one registered at flyspray?
10:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> must be over half an hour ago now...
10:39:05  <Jango> Notice: Undefined variable: register_text in /www/ on line 607
10:39:05  <Jango> Notice: Undefined index: project_title in /www/ on line 607
10:39:05  <Jango> Notice: Undefined index: flyspray_userid in /www/ on line 264
10:39:19  <Jango> can we submit reports for flyspray too ? :P
10:40:01  <blathijs> hehe
10:40:06  <blathijs> upgraded PHP perhaps? :-)
10:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i got those, too... i did not think about them much...
10:40:23  <zen--> oky ppl
10:40:25  <zen--> cu later
10:53:37  <CIA-5> celestar * r4168 /trunk/station_map.h: -Fix: Fixed a typo in previous commit
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11:05:12  <CIA-5> celestar * r4169 /trunk/station_map.h: -Codechange: Removed an include which accidently slipped into a commit
11:08:57  <Jango> celestar * r4170 /trunk/station_map.h: -Codechange: Removed a remove which was accidently removed because of a revert
11:10:23  <Celestar> :P
11:10:33  <Jango> :)
11:11:13  <CIA-5> egladil * r4170 /branch/32bpp/ (13 files): [32bpp] -Draw vehicles with the players colour instead of all blue.
11:11:38  <CIA-5> celestar * r4171 /trunk/ (water_cmd.c water_map.h): -Codechange: Create map accessor functions for creating ship depots and locks. Make use of them
11:21:40  <CIA-5> celestar * r4172 /trunk/ (water_cmd.c water_map.h): -Codechange: Added a few accessors to work with ShipDepots and Locks
11:33:53  <Tobin> Hmmm.
11:34:07  <Tobin> How is the 32bpp branch going? And where is it going? :P
11:40:37  <egladil> it is going slowly
11:40:51  <egladil> and hopefully forward :)
11:41:03  <Celestar> egladil: anything testable already?
11:41:15  <egladil> it is playable
11:41:21  <Celestar> anything I needa do?
11:41:57  <egladil> nothing that you wouldn't need to do for trunk
11:43:26  <Celestar> bah
11:43:28  <Celestar> building is SLOW
11:43:34  <egladil> but it won't look very different from trunk. as only ground tiles and vehicles are aware of the new drawing code
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11:45:01  <Celestar> it looks very different to me.
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11:46:21  <Celestar> arggggh
11:46:26  * Celestar punches matlab
11:46:32  <egladil> :)
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11:46:39  <egladil> matlab is evil incarnate
11:47:42  <Darkvater> egladil: you might want to do womthing though about the coding style :)
11:48:10  <egladil> any particular places i did wrong, or is it everywhere?
11:48:37  <Darkvater> you seem very determined about using if( instead of if (
11:48:47  <Darkvater> also things like h-= instead of h -=
11:48:54  <egladil> hmm
11:48:58  <Darkvater> just looking through 4170 cause I'm bored
11:49:10  <peter1138> 68	  if(maxrgb == minrgb) 	 69	    *h = 0; 	 70	  else { 	 71	    if(maxrgb == r) {
11:49:14  <peter1138> yeah
11:49:16  <peter1138> errrr
11:49:19  <peter1138> hmm
11:49:21  <peter1138> well, there should be braces around there
11:49:32  <peter1138> if(maxrgb == 0)
11:49:33  <egladil> yes
11:49:34  <peter1138>   *s = 0;
11:49:35  <peter1138> else
11:49:44  <peter1138>   *s = ((maxrgb - minrgb) * 0xff) / maxrgb;
11:49:45  <peter1138> o_O
11:49:58  <Matt-W> space after the if! space after the if!
11:50:04  <peter1138> *s = (maxrgb == 0) ? 0 : ((maxrgb - minrgb) * 0xff) / maxrgb;
11:50:24  <egladil> i copied that code directly from the old version. should have looked it through first...
11:50:36  <Darkvater> also what's with all the 0xff? Is that some special mask?
11:50:41  <Darkvater> Best to name it I think
11:50:56  <Darkvater> if(*r < 0)
11:50:57  <Darkvater> 118       *r = 0;
11:50:57  <Darkvater> 119     if(*r > 0xff)
11:50:57  <Darkvater> 120       *r = 0xff;
11:50:59  <Darkvater> clamp!
11:51:13  <Darkvater> clamp(*r, 0, 0xff)
11:51:19  <peter1138> yeah
11:51:38  <peter1138> r = (clr >> 16) & 0xff
11:51:42  <peter1138> r = GB(clr, 16, 8);
11:51:59  <Darkvater> also you have this big, long HSv2RGB switch there. Might be nicer to just have
11:52:11  <Darkvater> case 1: *r = q; *g = v; *b = p; break;
11:52:13  <Darkvater> on one line
11:52:19  <peter1138> actually, this is a branch, so i could do this myself...
11:52:22  <Darkvater> but that might be optional, and just me
11:53:16  <peter1138> it would be it easier to read there, i think
11:53:24  <peter1138> egladil: do you mind me going through it? heh
11:53:56  <egladil> go ahead
11:54:01  <egladil> just don't break it :)
11:54:14  <peter1138> as if ;)
11:54:20  <Darkvater> just being very annoying but I think there should be a better way of doing these pseudo-palette assignments
11:54:27  <Celestar> egladil: apart from the coding style, the map looks awesome when you zoom out.
11:54:30  <Celestar> :=
11:54:32  <Celestar> :)
11:54:40  <Darkvater> now it is if (&crashed) DM_GREYSCALE else DM_PLAYERCOLOUR
11:55:11  <Darkvater> getting very repetitious doing this after a the zillionth modifier :). Some wrapper would be usefule I reckon
11:55:18  <Darkvater> Celestar: can you host a pic for me somewhere?
11:55:23  <Celestar> Darkvater: yes I can
11:55:26  <Celestar> gimme 10
11:55:52  * Darkvater gives Celestar 10 somethings
11:55:57  <egladil> Darkvater: it probably would
11:56:38  <Darkvater> I love this though
11:56:38  <Darkvater>         case CONVHINT_PLAYERCOLORS:
11:56:38  <Darkvater>   1871         case CONVHINT_PLAYERCOLOURS:
11:56:41  <Darkvater> ]o/
11:56:43  <Darkvater> hmm
11:56:44  <Darkvater> \o/
11:56:46  <Darkvater> there
11:56:57  <egladil> blame peter1138 for that :)
11:57:16  <egladil> he was ranting a month ago or so about there being to much color in openttd and not enough colour
11:57:39  <Darkvater> no, no I'm all for it
11:58:26  <Darkvater> I donnu the meaning of 0xff (I think it's the colour-space, no 0-255?), but really, either GB() it or define it to some useful name
11:58:33  <Celestar> Darkvater:
11:58:45  <egladil> yes it is the colourspace
11:59:37  <Darkvater> woow, egladil that's awesome
11:59:40  <Darkvater> (the pic)
11:59:59  <egladil> thanks
11:59:59  <Matt-W> I assume current on the left, 32bpp on the right
12:00:06  <Matt-W> or something entirely different?
12:00:12  <Celestar> Matt-W: yes
12:00:15  <Matt-W> nice
12:00:20  <Darkvater> does it still do the palette animations?
12:00:22  <Darkvater> like the ocean
12:00:28  <Matt-W> even without redoing teh graphics sets that's a really nice improvement
12:00:38  <Darkvater> now all we need is ttf ^
12:00:38  <CIA-5> celestar * r4173 /trunk/station_cmd.c: -Codechange: Use IsClearWaterTile for buoy construction
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12:00:54  <Celestar> no animations yet.
12:00:57  <egladil> no, it doesn't do palette animation
12:01:09  <Celestar> there is no palette in 32bpp ;)
12:01:16  <Celestar> Matt-W: I agree
12:01:18  <Matt-W> but you could fake it
12:01:33  <egladil> as that would require multiple copies of the animated sprites (or reconverting them every animation  tick)
12:01:34  <Darkvater> Matt-W: I think 32bpp should be kept fully compatible with the old graphics (which by the looks of this does not seem to pose a problem), because a LOT of people love the old grpahics
12:01:36  <Matt-W> Celestar: and if it lets us have antialiased fonts in the newspapers too that'd be grand
12:01:37  <Celestar> Matt-W: difference is much less apparent fully zoomed in.
12:01:49  <Matt-W> Celestar: obviously :-)
12:01:58  <Matt-W> Darkvater: yes, but people will want 32bpp graphics as well of course
12:02:06  <Darkvater> Matt-W: obviously ;p
12:02:23  <egladil> the difference in zoomed out is linear interpolation vs pixel dropping
12:02:24  <Celestar> egladil: is there difference just the colordepth? or was the old blitter crap?
12:02:24  <Darkvater> I think alltaken did a great job capturing the essence, but still
12:02:27  <Darkvater> old = good
12:02:36  <Celestar> egladil: ah!
12:02:54  *** g0ne|angrYAngel is now known as scitor
12:02:58  <egladil> the old blitter was not crap. but it couldn't do the things required for 32bpp
12:03:12  <Celestar> egladil: any way to backport linear interpolation to trunk? ;)
12:03:42  <egladil> probably not
12:03:44  <Darkvater> now I must point at KUDr and ask where PBS is being :)
12:04:16  <Celestar> peter1138: are you doing some work on the acceleration stuff? so that I can remove it off my todo?
12:04:17  <egladil> as it needs more colours than is available in 8bpp
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12:06:35  <Darkvater> what's with #include gfx.h moved up 2 lines in r4167?
12:07:17  *** Belugas_Gone [n=Jfranc@] has joined #openttd
12:07:43  <Darkvater> what does DrawSpriteWithHint do?
12:08:24  <scitor> hi folks, I'm serving a dedicated linux server, and wanted to update it from 0.4.5 to 0.4.7 but i messed up something. I need some help instaling the new version, I'm getting strange errors...
12:08:34  *** black_Nightmare [] has joined #openttd
12:08:38  <black_Nightmare> hey
12:08:50  <egladil> it allows for passing conversion hints to the 8bpp=>32bpp converter without having to do drawmode setup
12:09:14  <egladil> so it could be called a intermediate step for my convenience
12:09:42  <Celestar> devs,
12:09:50  <Celestar> we need to decide what to do with cargopackets
12:11:12  <Darkvater> scitor: strange as in?
12:11:50  <Matt-W> Celestar: is this the thing that gives cargo like passengers a destination?
12:12:13  <Celestar> Matt-W: yes
12:12:28  <Darkvater> hmm
12:12:39  <Matt-W> hmm
12:12:47  <Matt-W> it's a fairly fundamental gameplay change isn't it
12:13:14  <scitor> hmm, I used the same configs (path,dedicated) to compile 0.4.7 and now it says wrong/missing GRFs, but i did it like with the 0.4.5
12:13:23  <peter1138> egladil: or something
12:13:45  <Darkvater> scitor: did you run any make install or similar? Where are your data files?
12:14:22  <scitor> yes, make install to install it to my ~/openttd folder. The data dir is in it
12:14:39  <peter1138> 13:03 < Darkvater> now all we need is ttf ^
12:14:52  <peter1138> i have a (rudimentary) patch for that...
12:15:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> scitor: you sure you copied the original TTD data files in there?
12:15:25  <Darkvater> peter1138: problem though: OSX and Windows
12:15:40  <peter1138> yeah, didn't try it on those
12:16:02  <egladil> peter1138: looks ok
12:17:41  <scitor> yes, i did. I copied the original grfs and cat file(s) into the install dir, didnt work. I had another error without the DISABLE_ASSERTS option enabled, I've compiled it right now aithout it, to see the error again: 'openttd: gfxinit.c:88: LoadGrfIndexed: Assertion `b' failed.'
12:17:43  <peter1138> (not tested, or even compiled, heh)
12:18:08  <egladil> compiling right now
12:18:19  <Darkvater> peter1138: there's a patch on SF somewhere which adds support for japanese characters. I think the person used ttf
12:20:50  <Darkvater> scitor: you could do the same thing I told the last person who had this problem. Use strace to find out where openttd is looking for your data files :P
12:21:10  <Darkvater> scitor: but also make sure that if you have changed paths you COMPILE openttd with those settings and not only run install
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12:21:47  <scitor> yes, i compile it everytime i change some options... I'll try strace now...
12:22:14  <Celestar> Matt-W: destination would be optional (difficulty setting)
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12:22:47  <Maedhros> ooh, i've found a (slight) elrails bug
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12:23:14  <Maedhros> if you build rails above tunnel entrances you sometimes get an extra pylon, as if to join to the track coming out of the tunnel
12:23:31  <scitor> hmm, the paths are right, the file it wants to open exists (open("/home/openttd/openttd/data/openttd.grf", O_RDONLY))
12:23:53  <Matt-W> scitor: and it's readable?
12:23:59  <scitor> :) it is
12:24:00  <Matt-W> (obvious question I know)
12:24:02  <Celestar> Maedhros: screenshot please
12:24:06  <Matt-W> but usually worth checking
12:24:15  <Maedhros> Celestar:
12:27:09  <SpComb> ping
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12:27:25  <scitor> hmm, maybe old compiler version?
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12:28:17  <Celestar> Darkvater: why do I not get this warning? :o
12:28:19  <Darkvater> crap
12:28:30  <Darkvater> rm trg1r.grf trg1r.grf.bak instead of mv
12:28:31  <Darkvater> :(
12:28:42  <Celestar> need it?
12:28:45  <Darkvater> why are my typing skills so bad :(
12:28:57  <Darkvater> please
12:29:26  <Darkvater> thx
12:29:31  <scitor> another question, i dont have to copy the original grfs into the source dir, do i? only into the install dir
12:30:13  <Celestar> Maedhros: trying to solve problem :)
12:30:29  <Maedhros> Celestar: cool :)
12:30:31  <Darkvater> scitor: if original grfs are missing it says so, yours says something else
12:31:52  <Celestar> Maedhros: might not be easy to solve
12:32:38  <egladil> Darkvater: would this be an improvement: ?
12:33:06  <black_Nightmare> what would happen if you mix two different engines in one train?
12:33:26  <black_Nightmare> eg 112km/h 1000hp with a 128km/h 1200hp one
12:33:32  <Celestar> Maedhros: any chance that you could file a bug report on I'm at work now and a bit busy :(
12:33:39  <Darkvater>  23#:3 73#73 73#73\
12:33:39  <Maedhros> Celestar: sure
12:33:40  <Darkvater> wtf
12:33:46  <Darkvater>  82#C2 @2#V3"T2#4-
12:33:50  <Celestar> thanks Maedhros
12:33:55  <Darkvater> my mouse doesn't work anymore
12:33:56  <Celestar> egladil: use -urN
12:34:05  <scitor> wtf... now, it works, out of the source dir... ive copied the original files into sourcedir/data...
12:34:07  <Darkvater> brb, egladil plese repaste when I'm back
12:34:07  <Jango> is unoperational if you don't have a username
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12:34:18  <egladil> ?
12:34:30  <egladil> Celestar: i use svn diff
12:34:43  <egladil> it does those things automagically
12:35:29  <Celestar> back in 10
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12:37:10  <egladil> Darkvater: was there something wrong with the diff?
12:37:11  <Darkvater> running openttd from the console was not a wise idea to do in a non-dedicated mode
12:37:18  <Darkvater> egladil: yes, paste the link :)
12:37:28  <egladil>
12:37:53  <peter1138> egladil: use spaces in align the defines, not tabs
12:37:59  <egladil> ok
12:38:02  <peter1138> (but what is "BYTEMATH_MULDIV_CONST" ?
12:38:02  <peter1138> )
12:38:24  <peter1138> also
12:38:28  <peter1138> why does my leg hurt?
12:39:17  <egladil> as i use integers in the range 0-255 instead of floats in the range 0-1 i have to scale the result after multiplication and division
12:40:04  <Darkvater> egladil: yeah, that looks better
12:41:01  <peter1138> yes, it does, heh
12:41:56  <Darkvater> egladil: but DO decide if you're using int* a or int *a
12:42:24  <Darkvater> InterpolateSpriteAndMaskHalfSize <-- also full of 'if(' ;)
12:43:34  <peter1138> tron'll fix it to int*, heh
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12:45:01  * Darkvater shakes hands: NEVER :o.;'o:OooLo;
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12:45:16  <peter1138> never what? :P
12:45:19  <Darkvater> int8
12:45:20  <Darkvater> int*
12:45:36  <egladil> where do i mix int *a and int* a?
12:45:46  <Darkvater> InterpolateSpriteAndMaskHalfSize for example
12:46:10  <peter1138> hmm
12:46:16  <peter1138> my elrail stations are fucked up now
12:46:21  <peter1138> it's got the direction wrong
12:46:39  <peter1138> how strange
12:46:50  <peter1138> it draws the wrong direction for Y stations, and nothing for X station
12:46:52  <egladil> InterpolateSpriteAndMaskHalfSize only use int *a
12:46:54  <Darkvater> or
12:46:55  <Darkvater> static void GfxMainBlitter32bpp(const DrawPixelInfo32* dpi, const Sprite32* sprite, int x, int y, const DrawSpriteMode *mode);
12:46:56  <Jango> Celestar: i assume that elrails become available at the same time as the first electric train
12:47:20  <Jango> would be good to receive the track a year earlier so you can prepare :S
12:47:37  <Darkvater> static inline void GfxMainBlitter8bppTo32bpp(Pixel32 *dst32, Pixel *dst8, const Sprite* sprite, uint width, uint height, uint pitch, int x_offs, int y_offs)
12:48:01  <egladil> i noticed
12:48:07  <peter1138> lol
12:48:21  <peter1138> my callbacks work, but getting sprites isn't there
12:48:26  <Celestar> peter1138: what is wrong with elrails?
12:48:37  <egladil> those with type* name are things i didn't touch when rewriting
12:48:44  <peter1138> so i've got, with ukrs, a grain wagon with an oil tanker as an artic part
12:48:49  <egladil> those with type *name i wrote myself
12:48:55  <egladil> which way should it be?
12:48:57  <peter1138> Celestar: stations... maybe it's my build...
12:49:28  <peter1138> egladil: as tron spent a lot of time going from "type *var" to "type* var", up to you ;p
12:49:48  <egladil> well, i prefer type *var
12:50:29  <Matt-W> I thought the coding style for OpenTTD said type *var
12:50:48  <MiHaMiX> wow, cool :)
12:50:49  <Matt-W> which is of course the One True Way
12:51:14  <scitor> ok, now it should work... thanks :) fantastic game,btw
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12:57:50  <Celestar> back
12:58:01  <Celestar> peter1138: newstations?
12:58:12  <Celestar> peter1138: maybe I can be of help?
12:58:16  <CIA-5> egladil * r4176 /branch/32bpp/gfx.c: [32bpp] -Some code cleanup and coding style fixes.
12:58:39  <peter1138> Celestar: no, standard stations
12:58:47  <scitor> bye, and thanks for help :) maybe ill change from php to C, and join you some day ;)
12:58:54  <peter1138> the catenary is just incorrect
12:59:08  <Celestar> peter1138: in trunk? :o
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12:59:26  <peter1138> i think so... i'm patched with newgrf stuff, but haven't touched that
12:59:55  <Celestar> peter1138: :o
12:59:59  <Celestar> there is something faulty
13:00:02  <Celestar> peter1138: I'm on it
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13:01:54  <peter1138> waypoints smell too
13:02:00  <Darkvater> 14:52 <@peter1138> ah, Darkvater :) <-- we needed a style, and someone had to decide :)
13:02:11  <Darkvater> which turned out to be me, and you all know my preference
13:02:13  <Celestar> peter1138: I think I got it
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13:02:55  <peter1138> shall we go back and revert all tron's " *" -> "* " changes then? ;p
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13:03:06  <Celestar> peter1138: nope its something else
13:03:27  <peter1138> is it broken for you as well?
13:03:34  <Celestar> yes
13:03:36  <peter1138> ah
13:03:36  <Celestar> but I found the error
13:03:39  <hylje> mm
13:03:39  <peter1138> mm
13:03:42  <peter1138> oi
13:03:47  <peter1138> don't copy me ;)
13:03:49  <Celestar> peter1138: rev 4164
13:03:56  <peter1138> yay, 5 errors from loading pb_ukrs.grf
13:03:59  <peter1138> instead of massive spammage
13:04:13  <MiHaMiX>
13:04:17  <Darkvater> peter1138: how did the aircraft-grf look?
13:04:17  <MiHaMiX>
13:04:29  <Celestar> peter1138: I think I might have forgotten to implement waypoints :o
13:04:40  <peter1138> Darkvater: mart3p's patch?
13:04:51  <peter1138> MiHaMiX: niiiice
13:05:00  <Darkvater> the guy with the dog-avatar
13:05:23  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: thanks :)
13:05:45  <peter1138> looked pretty good, but i seem to be ripping it all out again
13:05:56  <MiHaMiX> okay, bbl, have to do some work @ workplace :)
13:06:22  <Celestar> peter1138: there you go.
13:06:27  <CIA-5> celestar * r4177 /trunk/elrail.c: -Fix: GetRailTrackBitsUniversal needs Trackbits, not Track. While at it, remove an unused variable
13:06:35  <peter1138> \o/
13:06:38  <Darkvater> MiHaMiX: I like the reason and who-did-it, great idea
13:06:49  <peter1138> MiHaMiX: damn you, i keep trying to use the scroll bars ;)
13:07:33  <peter1138> Celestar: that works :)
13:07:49  <Celestar> peter1138: dealing with waypoints later.
13:07:55  <peter1138> *nod*
13:08:26  <peter1138>
13:08:27  <peter1138> err
13:08:29  <peter1138> damn
13:08:40  <peter1138> "Invalid special sprite length 6 (expected 7)!" is the error left
13:08:45  <peter1138> i know what that is, too
13:09:43  <peter1138> it's safe to ignore though, as it's either AI related or autoreplace selection
13:10:35  *** Osai^2 [] has joined #openttd
13:11:49  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: :DDDDDDDDDD
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13:12:46  <Celestar> peter1138: there you go.
13:12:48  <CIA-5> celestar * r4178 /trunk/elrail.c: -Fix: Draw catenary inside waypoints as well
13:14:27  <Celestar> peter1138: I keep trying the scrollbars as well :P
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13:16:08  <peter1138> bah, seggy faulty
13:16:50  <peter1138> probably not checking for null somewhere
13:17:24  <Celestar> peter1138: what? :o
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13:18:20  <peter1138> my code
13:18:26  <Celestar> ok :)
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13:22:18  <peter1138> yay, it works ;p
13:22:46  <peter1138> and the standard five is the right colour
13:22:59  <Celestar> 2cc?
13:23:10  <peter1138> no, it's a different sprite
13:23:22  <peter1138> crap, i've not got ttdp installed :/
13:25:44  <Tobin> peter1138: That's a bad thing? ;-)
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13:29:57  <peter1138> Tobin: it is when i want to compare
13:33:54  <peter1138> dbsetxl appears to work still
13:44:50  <egladil> four more commits today and openttd will make it unto the cia top ten list for today :)
13:46:10  <peter1138> 68 KB o_O
13:46:13  <peter1138> errr
13:46:14  <peter1138> no it's not
13:46:24  <peter1138> oh, yes it is
13:46:28  <peter1138> i have added the files, heh
13:46:42  <peter1138> hmm, but not done the station resolver
13:46:57  <peter1138> (which is used by waypoints currently)
13:47:09  <Celestar> egladil: I might have some more ..
13:55:31  <zen--> define cia
13:56:31  <peter1138> hmm, triggers aren't done either
13:57:00  <Darkvater> zen--: syntax error
13:57:39  <zen--> btw guys, most of the code of openttd is beautiful, so nice job
13:58:19  <zen--> maillist
13:58:24  <zen--> !maillist
13:58:26  <zen--> :)
13:58:27  <zen--> hm
13:59:13  <Darkvater> hmm, /me thinks zen-- has some visual programs
13:59:16  <Darkvater> eck
13:59:17  <Darkvater> problems
13:59:48  <zen--> em
13:59:50  <zen--> why?
13:59:55  <tokai|mdlx> compared to some other sources ottd code is pretty okay:)
14:00:15  <zen--> ive seen bad c source around... and openttd is okay:)
14:00:23  <Celestar> the ICAO is full of SHIT
14:00:35  <zen--> ICAO?
14:00:51  <Celestar> International Civil Aviation Orginazation
14:01:10  <Celestar> <= look at the prices. for a fUCKING document
14:01:13  <Darkvater> cause you're the first one to think positively of openttd-source
14:01:38  <zen--> :D
14:01:47  <zen--> hey i am a fulltime programmer
14:01:50  <Celestar> Darkvater: there ARE worse sources.
14:01:53  <zen--> i know what i am talking about
14:01:55  <Celestar> there are better ones as well.
14:02:06  <zen--> know the term: good enough?:D
14:02:19  <zen--> if smth is good enough you move to next task
14:02:24  <zen--> its how things work
14:02:31  <Darkvater> just surprised that's all
14:02:54  <Darkvater> Celestar: *cough* Simutrans
14:03:05  <zen--> how about exporting api to c# so i could do some real AI
14:03:15  <zen--> any thoights on that?
14:03:19  <Darkvater> zen--: have a look@ openttd.gpmi
14:03:21  <zen--> or should i do it on my own:D
14:03:39  <Celestar> Darkvater: what's up with simutrans?
14:03:53  <Celestar> zen--: what platforms is c# working on. I mean REALLY working?
14:04:07  <Darkvater> zen--: perhaps not exactly what you are looking for but they (#openttd.gpmi) are fully modularizing openttd and with the help of gpmi allow you to write an AI in almost any language you want
14:04:17  <Darkvater> Celestar: I've seen the source. It (st) is worse
14:04:25  <Celestar> Darkvater: ok :)
14:04:32  <Celestar> well, we have Tron ;)
14:04:48  <zen--> well
14:04:48  <zen--> no
14:04:51  <zen--> i mean
14:04:58  <zen--> in c# you dont have to think of the memory
14:04:59  <zen--> :)
14:05:09  <zen--> and in AI level you really shouldnt bother with that
14:05:12  <zen--> :)
14:05:16  <zen--> thats why c#
14:05:22  <Celestar> does C# work on Morphos, linux, FreeBSD ...
14:05:23  <zen--> and i am not talking about generic AI
14:05:31  <Celestar> I mean are there proper compilers for it?
14:05:33  <zen--> c# runs on mono
14:05:40  <zen--> yes
14:05:41  <zen--> there are
14:05:42  <Celestar> I see
14:05:59  <zen--> i recently made a compiler that compiles C# to php, javascript and java
14:06:03  <zen--> so
14:06:07  <hylje> :o
14:06:10  <zen--> you develop in c# IDE
14:06:14  <zen--> and run where you want it
14:06:24  <zen--> maybe i will make c# to c also
14:06:33  <zen--> that means
14:06:45  <zen--> memory management will be atomatically programmed for you
14:06:46  <zen--> :)
14:06:58  <black_Nightmare> zen-- .. are you the same 'zen' that I see on maarten's server?
14:07:01  <black_Nightmare> just wondering
14:07:02  <zen--> jub
14:07:05  <zen--> and u?
14:07:33  <zen--> i am the guy that gets bored and creates lakes:D
14:07:44  <zen--> if profit is over 15 million
14:07:45  <zen--> :)
14:07:52  <black_Nightmare> zen....different nicks in different place for me (eg openttd and irc are different) but .... take a guess who goes with a fantasy creature name :p
14:08:16  <zen--> hm
14:08:16  <Celestar> .oO(I'm not stupid and pay 1 THOUSAND bucks for a fucking pdf on a CD)
14:08:31  <black_Nightmare> zen...can you guess or no? :P
14:08:43  <zen--> give a hint what u did in a game
14:08:50  <zen--> i was in:)
14:08:55  <zen--> so i could relate
14:09:14  <zen--> any bumpy roads?
14:09:19  <zen--> any oil rigs?
14:10:45  <black_Nightmare> is a started with a D
14:10:55  <Darkvater> Celestar: I suppose there are no copies around on bittorrent :P
14:11:35  <Celestar> Darkvater: I think not.
14:11:37  <zen--> dragon
14:12:01  <zen--> ?
14:12:02  <zen--> :D
14:12:16  <zen--> if not then i am not sure:)
14:12:46  <black_Nightmare> got it right
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14:13:28  <black_Nightmare> me running a lot of early dmu trains now on one map :p
14:13:38  <black_Nightmare> there's only one single non-dmu trains...and its hauling 7 goods cars :))
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14:14:44  <Darkvater> hi KUDr_wrk
14:14:49  <KUDr_wrk> hi
14:15:33  <Darkvater> any PF/PBS progress/status report?
14:16:19  <KUDr_wrk> still at lowest layer of PF (cache + containers)
14:16:39  <KUDr_wrk> but soon i should move to real PF
14:16:55  *** Belugas_Gone is now known as Belugas
14:17:28  <Darkvater> KUDr_wrk: yaay :)
14:17:54  <Darkvater> KUDr_wrk: don't forget to do some commits, even wip, non-working things. Som epeople are getting histerical about there not being any activity
14:17:57  <Darkvater> hi Belugas
14:18:23  <KUDr_wrk> then I must sync it with the trunk first
14:18:40  <Belugas> Good day Darkvater And to the rest of you as well :)
14:18:40  <KUDr_wrk> I am syncing my sources regularly
14:18:54  <KUDr_wrk> but then I don't know how to do that on SVN
14:19:25  <KUDr_wrk> Belugas: good day to you too
14:20:20  <KUDr_wrk> Darkvater: you don't like hysterical people?
14:20:37  <Darkvater> KUDr_wrk: you can imagin :)
14:20:44  <zen--> whos doing the gmpi
14:20:50  <zen--> gpmi
14:20:56  <Darkvater> zen--: TrueLight mostly
14:20:58  <KUDr_wrk> I work with such ppl every day
14:21:19  <Darkvater> KUDr_wrk: synching is easy. just checkout the code, synchronize and commit
14:21:20  <zen--> he was also doing the AI?
14:21:39  <KUDr_wrk> OK, so I will try it
14:21:40  <Darkvater> yes, the newAI in openttd (the one tha'ts doing the busses only)
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14:24:03  <KUDr_wrk> Darkvater: what prefix should i use? Still [PBS] or [YAPF]?
14:24:54  <peter1138> [PBS] as it's the pbs branch, i'd say
14:25:02  <Darkvater> yeah
14:25:04  <KUDr_wrk> OK
14:25:10  <KUDr_wrk> sounds good
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14:25:21  <KUDr_wrk> and for YAPF related files?
14:25:34  <KUDr_wrk> extra directory /yapf/
14:25:43  <KUDr_wrk> or prefix/postfix
14:25:44  <black_Nightmare> what you doing now anyhow?
14:25:54  <black_Nightmare> *is waiting for the server to be rebooted*
14:26:01  <black_Nightmare> I mean openttd server ^^^
14:26:19  <Darkvater> yapf?
14:26:28  <peter1138> yet another pathfinder, i'd gues
14:26:29  <peter1138> +s
14:26:38  <KUDr_wrk> yes
14:26:48  <Darkvater> haha
14:26:55  <KUDr_wrk> still don't have better name
14:27:33  <Darkvater> is it a certain transport-type only?
14:27:45  <Celestar> this "YA**" has been introduces by me :)
14:27:48  <KUDr_wrk> should not be at the end
14:28:05  <Celestar> took it from "YaST"
14:28:15  <KUDr_wrk> I will probably test it on ships first
14:28:19  <KUDr_wrk> then RV
14:28:22  <KUDr_wrk> then trains
14:28:22  <zen--> well
14:28:26  <zen--> i am gathering intel
14:28:26  <zen--> :D
14:28:31  <KUDr_wrk> as the trains will be most complicated
14:29:02  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: will you have a system that makes is easy to add new penalties?
14:29:17  <KUDr_wrk> Celestar: hope so
14:29:32  <KUDr_wrk> want to have it easy to do anything
14:30:02  <Celestar> good
14:30:33  <KUDr_wrk> Celestar: if you will see something you are not comfortable with, tell it immediately
14:30:45  <KUDr_wrk> it is in development
14:30:55  <KUDr_wrk> so no problem to change anything
14:31:20  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: good 2 know
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14:32:38  <KUDr_wrk> another question: what about unit tests - i made subdir with some simple unit test program
14:33:12  <KUDr_wrk> but it works only under Windows now - I don't know how to do it on other platforms
14:33:29  <KUDr_wrk> should I commit it too?
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14:34:22  <Bjarni> what single unit test program?
14:34:37  <KUDr_wrk> yes
14:34:46  <Bjarni> heh
14:34:50  <KUDr_wrk> each container class is tested there separatelly
14:34:54  <Bjarni> yes is not really what I hoped to see :p
14:35:01  <KUDr_wrk> and later anything can be added
14:35:06  <KUDr_wrk> if it is isolated
14:35:12  <KUDr_wrk> and well designed
14:35:29  <Darkvater> KUDr_wrk: add it for windows and if someone else is interested they'll make it compile on their own os
14:35:30  <Bjarni> oh, you mean like a class test bench?
14:36:10  <zen--> hey
14:36:17  <KUDr_wrk> Bjarni: probably - we call it unit test - it can test also group of classes/module
14:36:19  <zen--> anyone know anything about openttd botwars?
14:36:35  <Bjarni> botwars?
14:36:39  <zen--> yes
14:36:45  <zen--> bot vs bot over network
14:36:56  <Bjarni> never heard of it
14:37:02  <KUDr_wrk> botwars - good idea - people can write their own AIs
14:37:12  <black_Nightmare> 'gathering intel' ???
14:37:13  <zen--> xactly
14:37:16  <zen--> yea
14:37:21  <zen--> to know whom to ask what:D
14:37:48  <Darkvater> zen--: truelight and igor(2code) do that :)
14:37:59  <zen--> i noticed:)
14:38:07  <zen--> how often r they around?
14:38:27  <Darkvater> they're in #openttd.gpmi
14:38:35  <Darkvater> which I am pretty sure said before :)
14:38:37  <zen--> i am there too already:P
14:38:45  <Darkvater> but TrueLight is TL|Away
14:38:50  <Darkvater> I think he's away
14:39:15  <MiHaMiX> ok, have some time again :)
14:39:22  <MiHaMiX> workin' on WT2
14:39:34  <zen--> wt2?
14:39:44  <black_Nightmare> zen.....?
14:41:05  <zen--> jes?
14:41:21  <zen--> mihamix said hes working on wt2
14:41:25  <zen--> whats that
14:42:09  <Darkvater> WorldTour #2
14:42:12  <MiHaMiX> zen--: WebTranslator2
14:43:13  <Darkvater> he those brazilians
14:43:15  <Darkvater>      The Brazilian is taking his country's flag and football
14:43:16  <Darkvater> jersey into space to give his team luck in the World Cup that
14:43:16  <Darkvater> starts in Germany on June 9, Associated Press reported, citing
14:43:16  <Darkvater> the astronaut.
14:44:37  <zen--> hm
14:44:37  <Celestar> lol
14:44:43  <zen--> is ttd threadsafe?
14:44:54  <zen--> :)
14:44:58  <zen--> i assume no?
14:45:10  <Celestar> the compression is threaded
14:45:19  <Celestar> (of savegames)
14:45:53  <zen--> how is the world map saved in memory
14:46:02  <Celestar> in a bit-coded wise
14:46:06  <zen--> can i access it in another thread?
14:46:15  <Celestar> read docs/landscape.html
14:46:44  <Darkvater> zen--: for reading sure :)
14:47:12  <zen--> and one fundamental question... if i manage to write smth similar to gpmi, will it be included in installer as an option?
14:47:25  <zen--> 'ala' zen-AI
14:47:25  <zen--> :D
14:48:03  <Darkvater> hmm
14:48:45  <Darkvater> I was hoping the AI part of gpmi could be used, so there is no need for something similar :)
14:49:20  <peter1138> can we merge that back at some point...
14:49:48  <Darkvater> we'll have to ask TL
14:49:56  <Darkvater> I think it's possible though
14:50:06  <zen--> i guess gmpi could use javascript support
14:50:15  <zen--> gpmi
14:50:19  <zen--> i keep saying it wrong
14:50:20  <zen--> :)
14:50:40  <Celestar> me too
14:50:48  <Celestar> doesn't gpmi have Javascript support?
14:50:58  <zen--> i saw php support
14:51:00  <zen--> :)
14:51:18  <zen--> i guess actually java and c# and c++ all could be supported
14:51:25  <zen--> its all about exporting the interface
14:51:41  <Jango> writing an AI in JS would be fun :/
14:52:10  <zen--> why u say that
14:52:34  <peter1138> c# would be tricky...
14:52:39  <peter1138> and java
14:52:42  <Jango> well, not a big fan of JS
14:52:49  <zen--> i mean
14:52:52  <Jango> couldnt u use JNI peter1138?
14:52:58  * Celestar is a big fan of C.
14:53:01  <zen--> c# and java can use native c exports
14:53:02  <Celestar> good plain old C
14:53:18  <Jango> which version? :P
14:53:18  * Celestar doesn't like languages where he can't do memory management.
14:53:25  <Celestar> Jango: C99 is fine
14:53:36  <Jango> my C still sucks
14:53:41  <Darkvater> Celestar: amen
14:53:47  <Darkvater> I hate Java.........
14:53:55  <Darkvater> and hate it even more every day I have to use it
14:54:07  <Jango> it's always satisfying to see that some of my (small) patches are actually in openttd
14:54:09  <zen--> i use my c# to java compiler:D
14:54:16  <zen--> so i dont hate java that much now
14:54:16  <zen--> :D
14:54:26  <Matt-W> urgh Java
14:54:28  *** e1ko [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
14:54:30  * Matt-W spits
14:54:54  <Jango> i don't like coding guis in Java
14:54:57  <Jango> i like OOP tho
14:55:14  <Jango> and it's more logical in Java than in C++ IMHO
14:55:28  <Celestar> I still think that C++ is kind of a monster
14:55:35  <zen--> java is good for plugins
14:55:37  <zen--> and thats it:)
14:56:05  <Matt-W> nah C++ is nice
14:56:08  <Matt-W> far from perfect of course
14:56:15  <Matt-W> but if you stay away from templates it's kind of nice
14:56:23  <Matt-W> shame it's not dependently typed, but you can't have everything
14:56:35  <Darkvater> Matt-W: and what's your progress? :)
14:56:51  <Matt-W> Darkvater: zilch, still writing this bloody book
14:56:54  <Jango> if you're mocking something up quickly in java, it's quite easy to do it fast cos of all the built in functions
14:57:15  <zen--> you are talking about the framework
14:57:21  <zen--> java has few builtin  commands:)
14:57:21  <Darkvater> Matt-W: suggestion: stop writing book, especially if it's bloody. You can get in trouble for that
14:57:25  <Celestar> blathijs: are you anywhere near?
14:57:33  <Matt-W> Darkvater: book nearly done
14:57:47  <Jango> yeah, the standard api
14:57:57  <Matt-W> many languages have huge standard libraries
14:58:02  <Matt-W> including C++, actually :-)
14:58:43  <zen--> c++ could really use uptodate IDE's
14:58:49  <zen--> with full refactoring support
14:58:50  <zen--> and all
14:58:54  <zen--> even c
14:58:54  <Jango> can you get eclipse for C++?
14:59:12  <Matt-W> no idea, I don't get on well with IDEs
14:59:18  <zen--> like
14:59:21  <zen--> nowadays
14:59:25  <zen--> i like to extract methods
14:59:28  <Celestar> I like vim
14:59:29  <zen--> move classes
14:59:30  <zen--> etc
14:59:41  <zen--> vim doesnt show you the bigger picture:P
15:00:05  <Celestar> I've tried multiple IDEs
15:00:07  <Jango> if you know how to use an IDE, it's way quicker than using a standard text editor.... although vim isn't a standard text editor
15:00:12  <Celestar> nothing matches vim.
15:00:28  <Matt-W> hurrah for vim!
15:00:38  <Darkvater> Celestar: VS2003 beats vim with its hands tied behind its eh 'back'
15:00:44  <zen--> try vs2005
15:00:51  <Darkvater> nah, don't like it
15:00:54  <Darkvater> too bloated
15:00:55  <zen--> why
15:00:58  <Darkvater> at least for openttd that is
15:00:59  <zen--> hm
15:01:02  <Matt-W> has a huge disadvantage: runs on windows only
15:01:03  * MiHaMiX LOVES vim :)
15:01:06  <Matt-W> and is thus completely useless
15:01:09  <Celestar> Darkvater: what does VS2003 help me?
15:01:20  <Jango> how*
15:01:21  <Darkvater> that is for you to find out :)
15:01:21  <zen--> better intellisense
15:01:30  <zen--> and better class view
15:01:35  <Celestar> vim has all the autocomplete I need.
15:01:50  <Celestar> and, on windows, vim has Intellisense.
15:01:54  <zen--> includes your own defined types on the fly?
15:02:11  <Darkvater> it is very good on paper, just not for C
15:02:20  <Darkvater> eg stuff like refactor, code-snippets don't even work
15:02:23  <Celestar> well, on the fly, you needa update your ctags
15:02:29  <zen--> you see
15:02:35  <zen--> vs05  has it on the fly:)
15:02:37  <Darkvater> so all I got from vs2005 is 1.5GB of wasted HD space
15:02:45  <Celestar> plus VS is only available for Terrorist-OS.
15:03:00  <zen--> as long as the job gets done, i wont care:)
15:03:51  <zen--> then again
15:03:55  <zen--> scite is cool also
15:03:58  <Matt-W> I have never been able to be seriously productive on Windows
15:04:00  <zen--> for lightweight
15:04:01  <Celestar> nah I don't support anything or anyone supporting Terrorism or State-Terrorism.
15:04:07  <Celestar> Matt-W: neither have I.
15:04:10  <Matt-W> It simply doesn't behave
15:04:47  <Celestar> and I rather have people around me wanting to blow me up than people around me wanting to control and spy on me.
15:05:25  <Celestar> => Microsoft is worse than Ossama.
15:05:42  <Celestar> so I won't touch any of their products with a 10 foot rusty pole
15:05:51  <zen--> good for you:)
15:06:20  * Matt-W only has Windows to play games on
15:06:37  <Matt-W> might not even have that one day
15:06:55  <CIA-5> celestar * r4179 /trunk/ (town_cmd.c town_map.h): -Codechange: Add and make use of an accessor that obtains the building type
15:07:58  <Darkvater> 17:05 < Celestar> => Microsoft is worse than Ossama. <-- compile error C4093 Incompatible types
15:08:14  <Jango> Darkvater: you spent 3 minutes dreaming that one up? :P
15:08:36  <Matt-W> also, spelling mistake
15:09:02  <Darkvater> Jango: got a bit distracted with work :P
15:09:03  <Celestar> Darkvater: ?
15:09:11  <Celestar> I don't get the joke
15:09:11  <Jango> any excuse
15:09:12  <Celestar> :P
15:09:22  <Darkvater> one is person other is corporation
15:09:26  <Darkvater> ncm
15:09:27  <Darkvater> nvm
15:09:29  <Celestar> ok
15:09:44  <Celestar> Microsoft.badness > Ossama.badness.
15:09:46  <Jango> it's ok Darkvater, he's german :P
15:10:25  <zen--> i think you should not discuss platform likness or dislikeness in this channel
15:10:27  <Celestar> Darkvater: plus in German low corporations are (mostly) treated like people.
15:10:50  <Celestar> zen--: it IS part of the ongoing "when do we drop windows support" discussion ;)
15:11:11  <zen--> there is such a discussion?:D
15:11:25  <Celestar> always ;)
15:11:27  <zen--> do you know the stats of users?
15:11:45  <zen--> openttd should report user OS:)
15:12:10  <Celestar> at least we should drop MSCC6 support :P
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15:12:36  <zen--> no support should be dropped:)
15:12:42  <zen--> if its there, it stais
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15:14:39  <Celestar> grep -o -h "\(\.m[1-5]\|map5\|SetTileType\|ModifyTile\)" *.c */*.c | sort | uniq -c
15:15:00  <Celestar> if you tell me how to do such a thing in MSVC, I MIGHT consider having a look at in within the next decade
15:15:02  <zen--> what was that
15:15:23  <Darkvater> Celestar: visual studio has regular-expression search
15:15:40  <Celestar> Darkvater: with "sort" and "uniq" and all the other options?
15:15:45  <Darkvater> zen--: MSVC6 is a bitch though. There are numerous workarounds just to get that to work
15:15:53  <Jango> if you use a IDE on linux, there's nothing to stop you from having an xterm for your greps
15:15:57  <Darkvater> Celestar: you can sort clicking on the tabs
15:16:05  <Darkvater> not sure about unique
15:16:31  <zen--> never said v6 was ok
15:16:32  <zen--> :)
15:16:38  <zen--> talking about 2005:)
15:16:51  <zen--> earlier r not that good
15:16:59  <Celestar> 2005 is bad too.
15:17:08  <zen--> resx wise yes
15:17:13  <zen--> it gets my laptop too warm:)
15:17:15  <Celestar> can I run that on some 300MHz computer?
15:18:18  *** TL|Away is now known as TrueLight
15:18:18  <Celestar> methinks an IDE that needs a state-of-the-art computer to work properly is idiotic. it seduces people to write equally resource-consuming code.
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15:18:47  <Celestar> and what's the result? Windows Vista.
15:18:53  <zen--> there should be a resx monitor
15:18:59  <Celestar> 2GB RAM recommended to run an OS.
15:19:03  <zen--> that says how much you are using in your program
15:19:08  <zen--> and how much you should use
15:19:39  <Celestar> I'm sure Civilization IV was coded in VS 2005.
15:19:41  <SimonRC> aha!
15:19:49  <SimonRC> I have found a crash bug.
15:19:52  <Celestar> a game that will crash if you have < 2GB memory installed.
15:20:09  <zen--> i do like the lightweightness of openttd
15:20:32  <Celestar> that how I like my OSes.
15:20:36  * Vornicus thinks that using an IDE that can take advantage of the resources of a state-of-the-art computer and make the programmer smarter is a good thing, but VS2005 does not do this well.
15:20:39  <SimonRC> (Yeah, I can start up a game in about 1sec.)
15:20:40  <Celestar> and my servers.
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15:21:02  <Vornicus> Civilization 4 was written in Python, and early versions of it had no optimizations at all.
15:21:07  <Celestar> like a Sun Fire T1000 Server: it doesn't even have a VGA code.
15:21:19  <Celestar> Vornicus: later version were only slightly better.
15:21:26  <SimonRC> Is there a way to submit my crash report if the "Submit Report" bug is greyed out?
15:21:39  <Celestar> Vornicus: don't get me wrong, it a great game, but the coding sucks.
15:21:47  <Vornicus> Simon: to submit a bug report through Flyspray you must log in.
15:21:56  <Darkvater> SimonRC: there is nowhere to send
15:22:57  <SimonRC> ah
15:23:12  <Celestar> Vornicus: I want an IDE that I can use on my laptop without draining my battery in < 2 hours.
15:23:27  <SimonRC> I could paste it here :-)
15:23:35  <Celestar> ^^
15:23:37  <Celestar> use a pastebin
15:23:38  <Celestar> :P
15:23:48  <Vornicus> and I want an IDE that I can use on my desktop which analyses and reports on my code as I'm typing it.
15:23:49  <SimonRC> I could describe it
15:24:04  <SpComb> Vornicus: "That line of code sucks ass bigtime?"
15:24:33  <Celestar> analyses?
15:24:44  <zen--> hehe
15:24:46  <Celestar> 90% of errors are logic errors, if not more. no IDE will analyse that.
15:24:51  <zen--> there is a FxCop
15:24:53  <zen--> :P
15:24:53  <SimonRC> I have an engine that is in two bits (at each end of the train).  When I try to drag one or more carridges from that train to another train (also 2-part engine but no carriges), the game crashes.
15:25:01  <zen--> FxCop will do that btw
15:25:07  <zen--> google 4 it
15:25:09  <SpComb> Celestar: some IDE could!
15:25:11  <Celestar> SimonRC: give me savegame and give train number.
15:25:21  <SimonRC> ok
15:27:20  <Vornicus> I want an IDE that will read flowcharts I've written in Visio and generate code from it.  That will, as I finish writing a method, will stub out every method I called that it doesn't recognize, and add writing those methods to my task list.
15:27:40  <Celestar> urgh
15:27:45  <zen--> you are talking about classdesigner of vs2005.P
15:28:09  <Celestar> I don't want any automatic code generator.
15:28:39  <Celestar> I hate all the automatic stuff VB.NET did.
15:28:50  <Jango> why? you can program them to generate the code that you want.... saves typing it out each time
15:28:55  <zen--> have a look at this
15:28:55  <zen-->
15:29:00  <zen--> this is javascript
15:29:06  <zen--> and its compiled from c# assambly
15:29:26  <Celestar> if I type "foo" I want "foo" on screen.
15:29:35  <Celestar> if I want something else, I type something else.
15:30:04  <zen--> but
15:30:07  <zen--> if you wanjt
15:30:15  <SimonRC> If you don't mind compilers, then you shouldn't mind automatic code generators, as long as you treat them *the same way*.
15:30:23  <zen--> want delegates, events, properties, async iterators, and crossthreading
15:30:25  <SimonRC> Also, templates to work from are good
15:30:50  <Celestar> nah I'm a low level working
15:30:58  <zen--> asm is lowlvel
15:31:00  <Celestar> I spend lots of time on machines that don't even have a GUI
15:31:13  <zen--> a console interface is a gui actually
15:31:15  <Vornicus> If I type "foo" on the screen, I want foo on the screen, and I want it to color the background of "foo" according to its location in the program and its data type.  I want to be able to right-click foo and have the computer tell me exactly what scope it has, show me the declaration, and give me links to every pplace it is modified.
15:31:42  <Celestar> Vornicus: some of the stuff can be made in vim
15:31:48  <SimonRC> So, generated code would not be put in the VCS, and should not be editted, and should probably not be looked at.
15:32:12  <SimonRC> In fact, that is the traditional usage of (e.g.) lex/yacc/bison output.
15:32:20  * Celestar shudders from all point-and-click interfaces
15:32:21  <zen--> no
15:32:32  <zen--> the actual source will be put in svn
15:32:36  <zen--> and the tool will also
15:32:37  <zen--> :D
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15:32:48  <SimonRC> Erm, not quite what I meant.
15:32:52  <zen--> any web2 devs here?
15:33:13  <mcsmurf> web2 devs? o_O
15:33:19  <zen--> yea
15:33:28  <zen--> the guys that write javascript apps on web:)
15:33:32  <mcsmurf> i would :p
15:33:37  <mcsmurf> (whatever is web2 for you ;-)
15:33:46  <zen--> never read
15:33:47  <zen--> :)
15:33:54  <zen--> latest hype
15:33:54  <zen--> :D
15:33:58  <mcsmurf> no...what is it for :P
15:34:01  <Celestar> Javascript != Prgramming language ;)
15:34:06  <SimonRC> darnit, waht is diff called in windows?
15:34:06  <zen--> scripting language
15:34:09  <mcsmurf> and Javascript has existed for like 10 years
15:34:11  <zen--> windiff
15:34:14  <zen--> yes
15:34:23  <zen--> but the latest version is already quite good
15:34:27  <mcsmurf> web2 is just another buzzword ;-)
15:34:30  <zen--> jes
15:34:34  <SpComb> javascipt == the language you do authentication and dynamic CSS in
15:34:36  <zen--> i like javascript better
15:34:42  <mcsmurf> whatever i was here because of a different thing...
15:34:51  <XeryusTC> SpComb: you do authentication in php...
15:34:56  <SpComb> nah
15:34:58  <SpComb> that's lame
15:34:58  <zen--> javascript is for emulationg controls which std html doesnt have
15:35:04  <zen--> like draggable listboxes n such
15:35:09  <XeryusTC> it's called security
15:35:12  <mcsmurf> is it by design that normal trains cannot turn around in a normal station when the layout is like
15:35:16  <mcsmurf> A===B====C
15:35:18  *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|food
15:35:21  <mcsmurf> my train goes from A to B
15:35:26  <mcsmurf> and then should go from B to A again
15:35:28  <SpComb> every real developer does auth in javascript. Once you do that you move the database layer to javascript...
15:35:43  <mcsmurf> without the C station it works fine, but now it wants to drive to station C ;)
15:35:49  <SpComb> sql.php?query=SELECT+*+FROM+foo
15:35:49  <Vornicus> mcsmurf: there's a setting for that.
15:35:51  <mcsmurf> also it's supposed to go to station A again
15:35:52  <Celestar> Vornicus: and what IDE shows you ALL positions where "foo" is modified?
15:36:02  <Vornicus> None that I'm aware of.
15:36:06  <zen--> vs005 can search for referenced symbol
15:36:06  <mcsmurf> Vornicus, /me looks
15:36:18  <Vornicus> I'll see if I can find it.
15:36:26  <peter1138> it's a game difficulty option
15:36:28  <zen--> so you can see a list of all positions in code, where it is chnged
15:36:32  <Vornicus> Celestar, has the rewrite of the slotter code been committed to trunk?
15:36:49  <Celestar> Vornicus: not yet.
15:36:53  <peter1138> why not?
15:36:53  <Celestar> I need someone to proof-read it
15:36:56  <peter1138> :)
15:37:24  <SimonRC> okay: buggy game here:
15:37:35  <Celestar> I'm always reluctant to commit stuff that bumps savegame revisions
15:37:46  <Vornicus> mcsmurf: third from the bottom in "difficulty options", it's called "train reversing".  There's two choices: at end of line, and at end of line and at stations.
15:37:49  <SimonRC> I have trouble transfering carrages from T23 to T24
15:38:01  <Vornicus> In order to turn around at a station, the second of these has to be true.
15:38:05  <mcsmurf> ah i see
15:38:18  <SimonRC> unless the station is EOL, too
15:38:19  <Celestar> me takes a note to change this option.
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15:38:41  <Vornicus> celestar: what does proofreading entail?
15:38:44  <mcsmurf> well i play in the Difficult mode ;) (whatever this is in the English version of the game)
15:38:52  <mcsmurf> is it different in the Easy mode?
15:39:04  <mcsmurf> (by default)
15:39:07  <Vornicus> yes
15:39:42  <Celestar> Vornicus: reading through each line of the diff and understanding what it does, comparing it with what it did (Before the diff) and making sure nothing break.s
15:40:06  <Vornicus> On easy (but not medium) trains can reverse at stations that are not end-of-line
15:40:27  <Celestar> er WHAT?
15:40:35  <zen--> hehe
15:40:37  <Celestar> the game crashes without me doing anything.
15:40:58  <SimonRC> Celestar: what, my game?
15:41:00  * Vornicus actually puts all this in a table.
15:41:02  <Celestar> yah
15:41:13  <zen--> the 4.7 has also a bug, if you rezise window to a small one... in some circumstances it crashed
15:41:23  <zen--> the win32 window
15:41:30  <SimonRC> I am on 0.4.7 on windows
15:41:44  <zen--> but
15:41:47  <SimonRC> Celestar: something must have got corrupted.
15:41:55  <Celestar> SimonRC: nope
15:42:02  <Celestar> there is a bug it seems.
15:42:03  <zen--> we can always rejoin:)
15:42:09  * Vornicus reads the difficulty options page on the wiki.
15:42:26  <SimonRC> Celestar: you have a game-corruption-tester?
15:42:43  <Celestar> SimonRC: nope, what platform are you on?
15:43:04  <SimonRC> Win32
15:43:08  <SimonRC> erm
15:43:47  <SimonRC> XP
15:43:56  <SimonRC> windows 5.1.2600
15:44:32  <Vornicus> Can you even have AI competitors in a multiplayer game?
15:46:21  <Celestar> SimonRC: I can drag wagons just fine?
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15:47:21  <CIA-5> celestar * r4180 /trunk/elrail.c: -Fix: Fixed an assert in the elrail drawing code due to passing of a wrong variable. I wish the compiler would warn about different enum types used...
15:48:49  <Jango> didn't elrail ought to be a patch option, for all those ppl who might not want the distinction of normal and elrail?
15:49:02  <Celestar> Jango: "we" have decided against that.
15:49:02  <SimonRC> Celestar: hmm, dunno then
15:49:04  <Jango> ok
15:49:07  <Celestar> SimonRC: what version?
15:49:12  <SimonRC> 0.4.7
15:49:14  <Celestar> 0.4.7?
15:49:19  * Celestar goes building 0.4.7
15:49:26  <Jango> so, this is one of the first (if not THE first) major gameplay alteration?
15:49:29  <black_Nightmare> one question ....
15:50:17  <Vornicus> Jango: there was PBS.
15:50:32  <Celestar> SimonRC: what EXACTLY are you doing to crash?
15:50:36  <Celestar> I have train 23 and train 24.
15:50:48  <Jango> but PBS wasn't compulsory
15:50:54  <Vornicus> well, no, it wasn't.
15:50:58  <Jango> this is
15:51:02  <black_Nightmare> when I send a 2-engines train (eg number 1) to depot then drag the second engine to a second slot (making it a seperate train) then try drag -any- cars (either from first train or from the build list) to the second train it would not go at all
15:51:13  <black_Nightmare> I have to delete the second engine and create it from the build list to be able to add any cars
15:51:20  <Jango> much as i like it.
15:52:40  <peter1138> Jango: what kind of english is "didn't foo ought" ?
15:52:56  <Celestar> lol
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15:53:04  <Celestar> black_Nightmare: ?
15:53:08  <Celestar> I can drag around engines just fine.
15:53:20  <Celestar> er
15:53:22  <Celestar> wagons too
15:53:39  <black_Nightmare> celestar....did you try send a 2-engines train to depot then move the second engine to a seperate slot?
15:54:09  <Celestar> no
15:54:10  <Celestar> wait
15:54:45  <black_Nightmare> ok
15:54:50  <Celestar> you cannot disconnect a dual-head train
15:55:09  <black_Nightmare> no ... it was two single engines and I'm sure of that :->
15:55:16  <peter1138> i can't replicate
15:55:25  <Celestar> we ARE talking about the game SimonRC sent me?
15:55:42  <SimonRC> I am
15:55:47  <SimonRC> okaaaay...
15:56:00  <SimonRC> click the deopt that has trains 23 and 24 in it
15:56:02  <black_Nightmare> hm....oh well...I don't run much dual engines so may as well as accept deleting the second engine before making a seperate train
15:56:07  <black_Nightmare> ty
15:56:08  <Celestar> DONE
15:56:10  <SimonRC> (next to hug city)
15:56:22  <Celestar> I'm  not hugging the city, but ok.
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15:56:32  * Vornicus hugs the city.
15:56:34  <Celestar> depot open.
15:56:52  <Celestar> now?
15:57:03  * SpComb a'splodes the depo
15:57:05  <SimonRC> then scroll sideways in depot window a few cars, ans drag the first pasenger carrige in the secon blok of passenger carriges to the other train
15:57:11  <SimonRC> (23 -> 24, IIRC)
15:57:28  <Celestar> BOOM
15:57:29  <Celestar> thanks.
15:57:43  <SimonRC> ok, good that you can reproduce it
15:57:49  <Celestar> THAT was a bug report with clear instructions
15:58:03  <SimonRC> as, sorry about before, then
15:58:07  <Celestar> bp
15:58:08  <Celestar> np
15:58:33  * SimonRC has been continuing from an autosave.
15:58:45  <Celestar> 518             while (skip--) v = v->next;
15:58:45  <Celestar> (gdb) p v
15:58:46  <Celestar>  = (Vehicle *) 0x0
15:58:49  <Celestar> bad.
15:58:54  <Celestar> very bad
15:59:12  <peter1138> i think i can guess
15:59:24  <black_Nightmare> heh glad I wasn't alone anyway
15:59:24  <Celestar> you can?
15:59:34  <peter1138> yeah
15:59:38  <peter1138> i can replicate
15:59:55  <Celestar> I can replicate too
16:00:01  <Celestar> I dunno why it crashes yet
16:00:17  <peter1138> well, maybe this is a different issue
16:00:24  <peter1138> but i tested it with a long train and a short train
16:00:30  <Celestar> it crashes when the destination train is NOT visible
16:00:32  <peter1138> if the short train is scrolled off... boom
16:00:35  <peter1138> yes
16:00:43  <peter1138> that's easy to fix
16:01:05  <Celestar> fix it then :)
16:02:16  <Celestar> ah
16:02:18  <peter1138> fortunately it's gui code
16:02:24  <Celestar> so?
16:02:26  <peter1138> so it won't crash network servers
16:02:34  <Celestar> right
16:02:42  <Celestar> unless they are non-dedicated :P
16:02:50  <peter1138> eh, true :P
16:03:38  <Celestar> SimonRC: thanks for that report.
16:04:39  <peter1138> << testers :)
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16:07:35  <Celestar> peter1138: it appears to work
16:08:53  <Jango> how easy is it to electrify existing track?
16:08:59  <Jango> do you have to bulldoze?
16:09:23  <Celestar> you can convert.
16:09:36  <peter1138> same as any other convert, heh
16:09:39  <Celestar> autoconvert will be commited early next week, when current problems have been irond out.
16:09:42  <Celestar> +e
16:10:03  <Jango> ah yes, i'd forgotten about the convert button
16:10:07  <Jango> good stuff
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16:10:37  <Celestar> it is finished, but I don't want yet to commit it, because it sits too deeply in the Command code. want to test more first.
16:11:21  <Jango> how is auto-convert different to using the button?
16:11:26  <Jango> is it the cheat version?
16:11:48  <Celestar> no, when dragging elrail over convrail it get convert automagically
16:12:02  <Celestar> so you can easily create crossings without fucking with the toolbar all the time
16:12:21  <Celestar> sometimes, wikipedia is funny:
16:12:26  <Jango> ah yeah, that would be useful
16:12:26  <Celestar> "8128 is the natural number following 8127 and preceding 8129."
16:13:58  <Celestar> ok I gotta go.
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16:21:14  <peter1138> any other testers of that patch?
16:23:24  <Vornicus> not I; I am doing something else.
16:23:53  <peter1138> so am i
16:25:05  <Vornicus> (specifically I am going through the list of difficulty options and describing what they do, the available settings, and what the various default groups set them to)
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16:41:39  <zen--> what about disasters in multiplayer
16:41:48  <peter1138> what about them?
16:42:30  <zen--> are they currently supported?
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16:46:01  <peter1138> yes... why wouldn't they be?
16:51:27  <SimonRC> hmm
16:51:39  <SimonRC> Any clues on how to upgrade an airport?
16:51:55  <SimonRC> I can't keep the planes off it.
16:52:52  <Vornicus> Depot every plane that heads to that airport at a different airport.
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17:00:33  <Vornicus> then destroy and buy up enough land for your new airport, with the original in the middle somewhere, and then quickly destroy the old airport and build the new one.
17:05:16  * SimonRC goes
17:05:32  <Stumo> Maybe we should have a "close airport" option, that means that planes cannot land
17:05:38  <Stumo> allows easier upgrading
17:08:33  <Maedhros> is it possible to remove roads in cities where both ends are junctions? with TTO it used to be possible by buiding railways over straight bits, but that seems to have been removed now ;)
17:08:34  <Vornicus> I was thinking along those lines myself.  What would planes headed to that airport do then?  What happens to planes that have already landed?
17:09:10  <Maedhros> maybe closing the airport would mean no new planes would land, they could just circle round until you reopen it?
17:09:38  <Maedhros> but planes that have already landed could take off again
17:10:02  <Vornicus> Meadhros: I believe the metric used to determine if a road can be removed is a pathfinder metric: after this road is removed, can you still get everywhere in the city by road?
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17:11:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> Maedhros: it is possible to remove town roads, depending on the town's rating
17:11:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> the rail thing will not work anymore ;)
17:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> as the road's owner is still stored
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17:13:07  <Maedhros> hmm... i've got a rating of Outstanding, but I can only delete roads from a free end, working backwards...
17:13:55  *** Tron_ is now known as Tron
17:14:09  <Vornicus> Right.  In order to destroy roads you must keep the entire town otherwise intact; you cannot split towns.
17:15:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> that is definitely not true...
17:17:25  <Vornicus> it's not?  I have never been able to split a town.
17:18:40  <Maedhros> heh, i don't really want to split a town, just (for example) delete the loop of road in this screenshot:
17:18:43  <Maedhros>
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17:19:05  <Eddi|zuHause2>
17:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> you might have to enable some patch option first
17:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't remember
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17:20:51  <Maedhros> ah, looks like i need to "Enable removal of more town-owned roads, bridges etc." then
17:20:55  <Maedhros> thanks :)
17:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, that would probably be it ;)
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18:06:07  <DarkSSH> my god, that eios_os sure has some weird quirks
18:06:16  <DarkSSH>
18:06:29  <DarkSSH> donnu what has gotten into him
18:06:40  <DarkSSH> hmm, who is Darkvater?
18:08:19  <Vornicus> the topic or post I have requested does not exist.
18:08:27  *** Darkvater [] has quit ["leaving"]
18:08:34  <DarkSSH> there
18:08:44  *** DarkSSH is now known as Darkvater
18:08:59  <Darkvater> Vornicus: it's there
18:09:22  <Vornicus> could have fooled me.
18:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> is that normal that the page requests me to log in?
18:10:38  *** orudge [] has joined #openttd
18:10:51  <Darkvater> oh wait
18:10:54  <Darkvater> it's in spambin
18:10:54  <Darkvater> he
18:11:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> that would explain things ;)
18:11:47  <Vornicus> heh
18:11:59  <Darkvater> in short: eis_os is very very paranoid and has put a 'license dongle' into this grf file so it only works after you have read the 'license' and 'agreed' to it
18:12:00  * zen-- gtg
18:12:14  <Darkvater> DaleStan is brilliant though :D
18:12:25  <Darkvater> "Now what you really need to do is get your server to serve up a dynamic GRF/Readme with a randomly selected key, so that no two people will have the same key."
18:13:00  <Vornicus> how on earth is he making this dongle work?
18:13:32  <Darkvater> it's just a parameter passed to the grf file
18:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> who on earth reads license agreements anyway? ;)
18:13:43  <Vornicus> uh-huh.
18:13:43  <DaleStan> He checks for an appropriate parameter (bridgew.grf <dongle>)
18:14:51  <TrueLight> Eddi|zuHause2: if you read it or not is not important. If you press, I Agree, the owner can safely assume you read it.. if you didn't it is your problem. Else he can't sue you, because you just say: I never read the license! Now he says: but then why did you agree? The legal system is one strange bitch....
18:14:56  <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause2>	who on earth reads license agreements anyway? ;) <-- I do, but I have to say, not each time. Usually it's the same novel of a whole lot of conditions that most people will never reach and that you can't pirate the software
18:15:06  <TrueLight> the reason most applications even forse you to scroll-down
18:15:12  <Bjarni> don't pirate this software <-- they can make that last several pages
18:15:16  <Darkvater> I don't want to badmouth anyone, especially when he's not around, but Oskar is behaving really weirdly
18:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> "that you can't pirate the software" <- see, you violate it anyway, so why bother ;)
18:15:52  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: we are not all like you ;)
18:16:04  <Bjarni> Darkvater: what did Oskar say this time?
18:16:11  <Bjarni> besides didn't he retire?
18:16:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> i said "you", not "i" ;)
18:16:17  <Darkvater> Bjarni: @link
18:16:48  <Darkvater> OMG
18:17:00  <Darkvater>
18:17:08  <Darkvater> \o/ they put OpenTTD on tweakers :)
18:19:29  <Bjarni> nice
18:19:44  <Bjarni> now we all wonder who this "Darkvater" is, who wrote it
18:19:46  <Bjarni> ;)
18:20:48  <Darkvater> hehe
18:21:08  <Darkvater> well I got a complaint about these nazi's that they refused to put openttd in there a few times before
18:21:11  <Darkvater> so I tried
18:21:17  <Darkvater> it seems I've got more 'power' :)
18:23:15  <Bjarni> about the C++ thing. TrueLight said a bit cryptic message about it. The crosscompiler supports it for most platforms, yet he would not advice to use it anyway
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18:24:20  <TrueLight> Bjarni: no, I said adding C++ to OpenTTD is a bad idea: mixed applications are a bitch
18:24:23  <TrueLight> or 100% C or 100% C++
18:24:25  <TrueLight> but mixed sucks ass
18:24:30  <Bjarni> ahh, like that
18:25:06  <Bjarni> btw, what about "most" platforms: which platforms will fail on C++?
18:25:16  <Bjarni> most indicates that one or two could fail
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18:27:27  <Brianetta> make: --cflags: Command not found
18:27:29  <Brianetta> make: --libs: Command not found
18:27:31  <Brianetta> Any suggestions?
18:27:48  <Darkvater> Brianetta: delete makefile.config
18:28:16  <Brianetta> You mean Makefile.config?
18:28:26  <Darkvater> yes
18:29:36  <Brianetta> SDL?  My dedicated server compiled right off the svn up
18:31:09  <Darkvater> <-- out
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18:36:04  <TrueLight> Brianetta: that happens if sdl-config isn't found
18:36:08  <TrueLight> Makefile depends on it :(
18:37:27  <Brianetta> Can't the Makefile test for it?
18:38:24  <Bjarni> it does some tests, but somehow it fails for you
18:38:28  <Bjarni> I wonder why
18:38:50  <Bjarni> TrueLight: <Bjarni>	btw, what about "most" platforms: which platforms will fail on C++?
18:39:40  <TrueLight> Bjarni: some targets are untested
18:39:46  <TrueLight> I believe all of them do have a g++
18:39:49  <TrueLight> but that doesn't mean anything
18:43:04  <Bjarni> hmm
18:43:50  <Bjarni> maybe we should add some C++ code to see if all targets makes a valid nightly build. If it fails, we can revert
18:44:02  <Bjarni> that would be the easiest solution
18:45:04  <Tron> TrueLight: some change to the Makefile recently makes it break
18:45:05  <KUDr> Bjarni: what about newgrf from peter1138? Is it not there?
18:45:50  <TrueLight> Tron: makes what break, sorry?
18:45:59  <Tron> TrueLight: the problem Brianetta has
18:46:10  <Bjarni> KUDr: the difference between you and some other people are that you wrote it in public....
18:46:33  <TrueLight> Tron: it has been there for ages
18:46:36  <Tron> suddenly Makefile.config has the line SDL-CONFIG:=
18:46:39  <TrueLight> you _need_ sdlconfig, or a fake one
18:46:59  <KUDr> Bjarni: public? don't understand
18:47:10  <TrueLight> Tron: dunno about that
18:47:15  <Bjarni> public = not in a private message
18:47:20  <Tron> TrueLight: i _know_ it suddenly breaks, for some reason a recent change to the Makefile makes it rewrite Makefile.config and SDL-CONFIG gets set to nothing
18:47:32  <Tron> it was Bjarni's change
18:47:35  <TrueLight> Tron: but sdl-config being nothing
18:47:39  <TrueLight> shouldn't report those problems
18:47:42  <TrueLight> but that it is doing for ages
18:47:48  <Tron> ok, nothing was the wrong word
18:47:51  <Tron> empty
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18:47:55  <Tron> that's the correct
18:47:56  <TrueLight> it should check that it is empty and handle it a bit more..... descrite :)
18:47:56  <Tron> one
18:47:56  <Bjarni> <Tron>	it was Bjarni's change <-- which you reverted like 3 revisions later
18:48:04  <Tron> Bjarni: not THIS change
18:48:09  <Bjarni> hmm
18:48:11  <Tron> Bjarni: you later made another
18:48:24  <Bjarni> I didn't know that
18:48:24  <Tron> TrueLight: empty var != undefined var
18:48:31  <TrueLight> Tron: my point here is, if I make SDL-CONFIG empty myself, it shouldn't report those errors, but be a bit better in error-reporting
18:48:46  <TrueLight> of course it should be fixed that SDL-CONFIG is empty if SDL is present
18:48:57  <Tron> huh?
18:48:58  <TrueLight> but currently Makefile depends very hard on SDL :)
18:49:07  <Tron> sentence makes no sense
18:49:11  <TrueLight> some expections btw
18:49:23  <TrueLight> Tron:
18:49:26  <TrueLight> I edit Makefile.config
18:49:28  <TrueLight> make SDL-CONFIG empty
18:49:30  <TrueLight> I run mka
18:49:36  <TrueLight> eI get weird errors are Brianetta pointed out
18:49:39  <TrueLight> should not happen
18:49:42  <TrueLight> should report better errors
18:49:45  <TrueLight> SDL-CONFIG being empty
18:49:49  <TrueLight> make sense now it does? :)
18:49:50  <Tron> TrueLight: the point is: Brianetta didn't edit Makefile.config
18:49:58  <Tron> his Makefile.config was perfectly fine before
18:49:59  <TrueLight> No, that is the second problem :)
18:50:11  <TrueLight> I don't say which one is more important :)
18:50:19  <Tron> the change Makefile makes it rewrite Makefile.config
18:50:22  <Tron> and it does it wrong
18:50:39  <Bjarni> hmm
18:50:53  <Tron> and the problem you're pointing out is basic foot shooting
18:50:57  <Bjarni> it should update it to assign SDL-CONFIG to SDL-CONFIG
18:51:29  <Tron> if i tell it to shoot itself in the foot, it should exactly do that
18:52:17  <Bjarni> $(call CONFIG_LINE,SDL-CONFIG:=$(SDL-CONFIG)) <-- this appears to be ok
18:52:24  <Tron> but just running make and suddenly the config file gets rewritten wrong is _not_ footshooting, it's just a bug
18:53:00  <Bjarni> makefile.libdetection should not do this anymore
18:53:13  <Tron> Bjarni: the problem exists, i have it with every single checkout i have. It breaks Makefile.config, i have to edit it and readd sdl11-config, then it works
18:53:26  <Bjarni> hmm
18:53:41  <Bjarni> you mean it deletes SDL-CONFIG?
18:53:55  <Bjarni> and makes a blank line?
18:54:02  <Tron> it alters
18:54:10  <Tron> SDL-CONFIG:=sdl11-config
18:54:11  <Tron> to
18:54:14  <Tron> SDL-CONFIG:=
18:54:27  <TrueLight> if the makefile-version is outdated
18:54:28  <Tron> and yes, sdl11-config is perfectly correct for FreeBSD
18:54:33  <TrueLight> it recreates Makefile.config
18:54:35  <TrueLight> which can break things
18:54:38  <TrueLight> Tron: use ./configure
18:54:40  <TrueLight> solves that problem :)
18:54:55  <Tron> the config file was perfectly correct
18:55:08  <Tron> the line was perfeclty correct
18:55:23  <Tron> just running make made it wrong
18:55:28  <Tron> something is broken
18:55:29  <TrueLight> Tron: that problem is really old, and really long known :)
18:55:36  <Tron> calling ./configure is _not_ the right answer
18:55:38  <TrueLight> if it recreates Makefile.config because of an update
18:55:40  <TrueLight> it fucks up
18:55:41  <TrueLight> badly
18:55:53  <TrueLight> dropping Makefile.config and using ./configure is
18:55:54  <TrueLight> but okay
18:55:57  <Tron> strange, it worked for more before
18:56:01  <Tron> for 2 years
18:56:07  <TrueLight> the last version change is around 2 years ago :p
18:56:10  <Tron> suddenly it doesn't work anymore
18:56:14  <TrueLight> Bjarni pushed 2 versions in the last month :p
18:56:17  <Tron> and you tell me it was always this way
18:56:22  <Tron> i tend to not believe you
18:56:34  <TrueLight> that is absolutely your choice :)
18:56:39  <TrueLight> but you aren't the first with the problem :)
18:56:50  <Tron> and it's very interesting that the only incorrect change is SDL-CONFIG
18:56:59  <Tron> zlib et al. are still correct
18:56:59  <TrueLight> most likely libdetect fails
18:57:06  <Bjarni> no
18:57:09  <Bjarni> that's not it
18:57:13  <Bjarni> well, not entirely
18:57:16  <TrueLight> SDL-CONFIG is known to be overwritten
18:57:25  <Tron> deleting Makefile.config and running make works fine, so the libdetection obviously works
18:57:43  <TrueLight> the update-code
18:57:43  * Brianetta nods
18:58:13  <TrueLight> ah, yes, see
18:58:15  <TrueLight> Makefile
18:58:17  <Bjarni> it appears that part of lib detection is done in the makefile itself instead of in makefile.libdetection and this behaviour is causing it since my fix for this issue only deals with the stuff in the detection file
18:58:19  <TrueLight> line 168
18:58:23  <TrueLight> always considered that weird
18:58:56  <TrueLight> but okay
18:59:00  <TrueLight> not the cause of this problem
18:59:01  <TrueLight> I dunno
18:59:12  <TrueLight> and to be honest, I don't want to know :p
18:59:18  <TrueLight> Makefile became a total crap, really
18:59:33  <Bjarni> today I got the idea to remove everything regarding MANUAL_CONFIG since it makes the makefile complex and I don't think anybody uses it
18:59:39  <Bjarni> I think it would also solve this issue
18:59:45  <TrueLight> was it ever used? :p
18:59:50  <Bjarni> yeah
19:00:05  <Bjarni> the first crosscompiler to compile win binaries on linux used it
19:00:32  <Bjarni> it didn't work well though and was never used as a script to make nightly builds even though that was the idea when it was made
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19:01:42  <Bjarni> ok, nobody screams when I said that I will do it, so I will start a makefile cleanup
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19:02:35  <Brianetta> The closes I come to manual config is stuff like:
19:02:46  <Brianetta> RELEASE=r4343 DEDICATED=1 make
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19:16:51  <CIA-5> belugas * r4181 /trunk/ (11 files): CodeChange : Replaced [G/S]etMapExtraBits by [G/S]etTropicZone. Although it was an accessor, nor his usage nor the values were clear.
19:29:16  <Bjarni> tokai|ni, tokai|mdlx: do MorphOS use STATIC_ZLIB_PATH?
19:31:01  <Bjarni> tokai|ni, tokai|mdlx: are you here right now?
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19:33:28  <KUDr> Bjarni, TrueLight: can I make new branch/yapf for new PBS-able pathfinder? I don't want to lost current branch/pbs state.
19:34:17  <Bjarni> hmm
19:35:19  <Bjarni> why not finish pbs before making a new branch?
19:36:13  <KUDr> there should not be PBS at YAPF and then PBS can be done on top of it. But YAPF should work for all transport types
19:36:24  <KUDr> so YAPF != PBS
19:36:54  <Bjarni> so you mean PBS completion depends on completion of YAPF?
19:37:02  <KUDr> yes
19:37:10  <tokai|mdlx> Bjarni: no its empty in makefile.config.
19:37:14  <KUDr> but new PBS
19:37:17  <Bjarni> <KUDr>	so YAPF != PBS <-- I'm aware of that
19:37:18  <KUDr> not the old one
19:37:27  <tokai|mdlx> Bjarni: only WITH_ZLIB:=1 there
19:37:54  <Bjarni> tokai|mdlx: good, because as far as I can see, it's kept for MorphOS, so now it goes
19:38:54  <Bjarni> KUDr: the way you put it, it would be silly not to make a new branch
19:39:19  <KUDr> then how can I do it?
19:39:22  <tokai|mdlx> malformed ddc resume :)
19:39:29  <KUDr> to work on YAPF only
19:39:37  <KUDr> and later on PBS
19:39:48  <Bjarni> tokai|mdlx: doesn't matter. All I needed to know was if you actually used that flag
19:40:02  <tokai|mdlx> Bjarni: i never did.
19:40:11  <Bjarni> then nobody ever used it :p
19:40:32  <tokai|mdlx> zlib is either in /lib /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib (but usually /usr/lib)
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19:42:00  <Bjarni> KUDr: I guess it mean that you have to make a new branch. Just remember not to forget the PBS branch so it gets horrible outdated and nearly impossible to update
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19:43:07  <KUDr> I don't plan to update it. PBS will be new. And I want to hold YAPF synced with trunk
19:43:25  <KUDr> PBS will then overtake YAPF
19:44:27  <Bjarni> you put a lot of work into PBS already, right?
19:45:08  <KUDr> yes, but it will not be used as-is. Now I am bit smarter
19:46:31  <Bjarni> hehe
19:46:56  <KUDr> you don't learn while programing?
19:46:59  <Bjarni> I meant that you will not remove your work that you have reached so far, right?
19:47:39  <KUDr> not removed, but change the form (i.e. different files)
19:48:16  <Bjarni> <KUDr>	you don't learn while programing? <-- when I started with OTTD, I didn't know about makefiles, static/dynamic libs, porting issues and so on, but that didn't stop me so I did some research on a need to know basis :)
19:48:46  <Bjarni> not to mention all the stuff I learned in C
19:48:56  <KUDr> yes, I am also learning a lot of new things
19:48:59  *** MeusH [] has joined #openttd
19:49:11  <MeusH> hello everybody
19:49:27  <MeusH> please anybody help me in maths
19:49:34  <KUDr> hello from everybody
19:49:43  <Prof_Frink> 1+1~=3
19:49:46  <Bjarni> some of the stuff I learned when working with OTTD are stuff that you don't need to consider when working on small projects that don't have to run as fast as possible and don't have to be ported
19:49:54  <Bjarni> hi MeusH
19:49:58  <Bjarni> 2+2=4
19:50:09  <MeusH> is (a*b*c)^2 equal to a^2*b^2*c^2?
19:50:21  <KUDr> Bjarni: same to me with the portability
19:50:35  <peter1138> eveninging
19:50:37  <peter1138> what did i miss?
19:50:41  <Bjarni> everything
19:50:49  <peter1138> summary?
19:50:49  <Bjarni> that happened since you left
19:50:53  <Kalpa> MeusH: Yes
19:51:29  <peter1138> i see my name
19:51:31  <peter1138> and newgrf
19:51:33  <peter1138> hmm
19:51:36  <peter1138> what's that about? heh
19:51:36  <MeusH> thanks Kalpa
19:51:49  <MeusH> and (a+b+c)^2 = a^2+b^2+c^2?
19:51:51  <Brianetta> 2 + 2 = 5
19:51:58  <Brianetta> (for very large values of 2)
19:52:02  <Bjarni> MeusH: think about it. If you wonder about something like that, see if you can use the standard rules to rewrite it. (a*b*c)^2 = (a*b*c)*(a*b*c) = a*a*b*b*c*c = a^2*b^2*c^2
19:52:04  <KUDr> peter1138: C++?
19:52:54  <peter1138> oh
19:53:01  <peter1138> i thought that wasn't wanted
19:53:29  <Vornicus> (a + b + c)^2 = a^2 + b^2 + c^2 + 2ab + 2bc + 2ca
19:53:35  <MeusH> Bjarni: wouldn't it be a*a * a*b * a*c  *  b*a * b*b * b*c  *  c*a * c*b * c*c ? All elements should be multiplied by the others
19:53:54  <Bjarni> Vornicus beat me to it
19:54:02  <Vornicus> nope, bjarni got it right the first time.
19:54:06  <Bjarni> MeusH: a*b*c = a*c*b
19:54:26  <Vornicus> Meush: multiplication is not distributive over multiplication, but it is associative.
19:54:36  <Bjarni> order doesn't matter when you use + or *, so you can switch it if needed
19:54:44  <Vornicus> and commutative.
19:56:27  <Vornicus> anyway your suggestion fails the laugh test.  Consider:  2*(3*5*7) = 2*(105) = 210.  But (2*3)*(2*5)*(2*7) = 6*10*14 = 840
19:57:04  <MeusH> yeah, but I don't understand why (a+b+c)^2 = a^2 + b^2 + c^2 + 2ab + 2bc + 2ca, while (a*b*c)^2 is a*a*b*b*c*c
19:57:20  <Vornicus> Because multiplication is distributive over addition but not over multiplication.
19:57:23  <Kalpa> Because multiplication is not addition? Uhh? :)
19:58:17  <Bjarni> MeusH: because a^2 = a*a, and (a*b)^2 then have to be (a*b)*(a*b)
19:58:38  <Bjarni> resulting in a*b*a*b and reordered to a*a*b*b
19:58:43  <Kalpa> MeusH: Because a * a = aa, but a + a = 2a
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19:59:54  <MeusH> so I don't have to multiply each element of left () by all elements of right (), like when adding?
20:00:24  <Vornicus> You don't have to do that, right.
20:00:32  <Kalpa> MeusH: (a+b+c)^2 = (a+b+c)*(a+b+c) = a*a + a*b + a*c + b*a + b*b + b*c + c*a + c*b + c*c = a^2+b^2+c^2 + 2ab + 2bc + 2ca :)
20:00:49  <Kalpa> MeusH: No, of course not with multiplication, since (a*b*c)*d = a*b*c*d
20:01:58  <MeusH> thank you so much
20:02:06  <MeusH> you're really helpful
20:02:06  <MeusH> thanks
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20:02:46  *** DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan
20:02:50  <MeusH> (and don't tell anyone I'm in math-profiled class)
20:02:54  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4182 /branch/yapf/:
20:02:54  <CIA-5> [YAPF] - New branch for 'Yet Another PathFinder' based on trunk r4181. Attempt to create fast and flexible pathfinder.
20:02:54  <CIA-5>  - Later the new PBS should be implemented on top of it.
20:02:54  <CIA-5>  - Thanks to Celestar for the name 'YAPF'.
20:04:23  <peter1138> i always thought pbs should be pathfinder independent... oh well
20:05:23  *** ZsoL [] has joined #openttd
20:05:29  <glx> I though the actual pbs was removed because it was pathfinder dependant :)
20:05:53  <MeusH> no, it was because of crashes and traffic jams
20:05:56  <KUDr> yes, should be independent
20:06:13  <glx> MeusH: yes, because of that too :)
20:06:29  <KUDr> but if NTP is not able to support it and NPF is too slow, I have no other choice
20:07:15  <MeusH> If KUDr makes a working YAPF, so everyone would be happy with it, it will be the only pathfinder, and PBS won't be pathfinder dependant :)
20:07:39  <KUDr> :) its my dream
20:07:52  <KUDr> but we will see
20:07:56  <KUDr> I can fail
20:08:09  <peter1138> heh
20:09:58  <peter1138> strange, i've hit the save thread debugger bug
20:10:30  <KUDr> debugger bug?
20:14:08  <CIA-5> bjarni * r4183 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs):
20:14:08  <CIA-5> -Codechange: [Makefile]: removed MANUAL_CONFIG as it's not used anymore
20:14:08  <CIA-5>  This should hopefully fix the issue where WITH_SDL can be defined while SDL-CONFIG is not
20:14:08  <CIA-5>  Added an error if WITH_SDL is defined but SDL-CONFIG is not. The same goes for WITH_PNG even though nobody reported this as a problem
20:14:08  <CIA-5>  removed STATIC_ZLIB_PATH as it turns out that nobody used it
20:19:06  *** black_Nightmare [] has joined #openttd
20:19:07  <black_Nightmare> hey
20:19:58  <black_Nightmare> just wondering but there a list of when vehicles expires?  (like what year is the A4 steam not sold anymore..etc)
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20:21:35  <Vornicus> There is, somewhere.
20:21:48  <Vornicus> may not exactly be in that format though.
20:22:09  <black_Nightmare> yeah...sometimes I like one gnine and always wonder why it disappear when I'm not done bulking up a route yet...
20:22:33  <black_Nightmare> it was weird once to have one route that was many 112km/h dmu's and one single SH40 diesel because I needed one more train but the dmu was not sold anymore
20:22:35  <black_Nightmare> :p
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20:22:56  <Vornicus> nope, looks like the data I saw does not include it.
20:23:00  <Vornicus> I'll see what I can find.
20:23:30  <black_Nightmare> yeah...I've noticed that...many pages can list what is told in the game .. but its difficult to find what is not already told in the game (eg year not sold anymore)
20:23:55  <Vornicus> <--- here's a comparison list in the wiki.
20:24:28  <Vornicus> Someone with GRF experience should be able to tear the actual GRFs open and ind this data.
20:25:36  <black_Nightmare> hmmm that table actually helps
20:25:54  <black_Nightmare> if I read right... eg the Pannier tank will be gone by 1944
20:25:59  <Vornicus> Nope.
20:26:10  <black_Nightmare> oh well..was a try
20:26:28  <Vornicus> Lifespan is how long an individual engine lasts; engines that have gone past their lifespan are considerably less reliable.
20:26:45  <Born_Acorn> Lets put back the Jinty from TTO!
20:27:35  <black_Nightmare> oh yeah that
20:27:46  <black_Nightmare> soon as they go red age they break down frequently
20:27:56  <black_Nightmare> and one year past their life: breaks down almost all times ^_^
20:28:03  <black_Nightmare> I hate road vehicles for that sometimes
20:28:09  <black_Nightmare> keeps breaking down each few road tiles lol
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20:32:45  <Born_Acorn> The Jinty was the first locomotive you got in TTO. Shame CS had to remove it for Maglevs.
20:33:16  <black_Nightmare> what was the Jinty again?
20:33:22  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4184 /branch/yapf/strgen/strgen.c: -Fix: Changed file name/line number format in warnings/errors to support MSVC navigation
20:33:34  <Born_Acorn> A small steam engine
20:33:54  <Born_Acorn> Smaller and weaker than the Pannier tank, but was available earlier, for a 1920 start year.
20:34:41  <peter1138> Born_Acorn!
20:34:45  <peter1138> new sprites!
20:34:58  <Born_Acorn> peter1138! Integrate the Jinty!
20:35:05  <peter1138> do what?
20:35:11  <Born_Acorn> Yes!
20:35:18  <black_Nightmare> born_acorn.. 1920? hmmm that would explain one particular map
20:35:28  <black_Nightmare> could lay tracks but there was NO engines to choose from at all
20:35:40  <black_Nightmare> it was a pre-1950 map for sure, can't recall what year it was
20:35:57  <Born_Acorn> WIth certain grf sets, the start year is 1920.
20:36:06  <black_Nightmare> yeah...that figures
20:36:14  <black_Nightmare> had to stuck to buses/lorries for a long time
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20:36:19  <Born_Acorn> so perhaps the author was using one at the time, and thought not of the default vehicles.
20:36:53  <peter1138> Born_Acorn: ukwaypointsw.grf!
20:36:59  <XeryusTC> <- can some experienced C/C++ devs vote here?
20:37:11  <Born_Acorn> peter1138, soon!
20:37:12  *** BJH [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:37:25  <Born_Acorn> must do glass station first!
20:37:34  *** BJH_ is now known as BJH
20:38:33  <peter1138> XeryusTC: why?
20:40:00  <Born_Acorn> He is trying to rig the vote!
20:41:25  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4185 /branch/yapf/ (4 files in 2 dirs): [YAPF] - added VC8 project files
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20:41:40  <RvGaTe> Hey
20:41:52  <RvGaTe> i have a question
20:42:09  <Born_Acorn> we have the answers.
20:42:28  <RvGaTe> since openttd is made for handhelds aswell, are there versions that might work on mobile phones? :P
20:42:42  <RvGaTe> or isn't there a java version
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20:43:13  <Brianetta> There is no Java version.
20:43:20  <RvGaTe> aahh...
20:43:20  <Brianetta> It was written in C, not Java.
20:43:40  <Brianetta> It can run on any platform that has a C compiler.
20:44:04  <RvGaTe> might be a cool to make it availeble for mobile phones...
20:44:13  <RvGaTe> just an idea for the future :P
20:44:38  <Born_Acorn> I has been suggested before. But nobody is willing to do the work.
20:44:46  <RvGaTe> oh
20:44:58  <Brianetta> The game would have to be rewritten in Java...
20:45:16  <Brianetta> There's a slim chance for Smartphones, though
20:45:16  <Born_Acorn> But people who want it done and know how to do it could do it
20:45:22  <RvGaTe> I understand that, maybe you'll find some guru's in the future
20:45:35  <Born_Acorn> The PSP version was unexpected.
20:46:19  <guru3> psp version of openttd?
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20:47:11  *** Mucht|zZz_ is now known as Mucht
20:47:33  <Brianetta> Yeah.  You need an old, crackable PSP to play it.
20:47:55  <XeryusTC> <@peter1138> XeryusTC: why? <- because me and my friend want to know what devs think ;)
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20:59:09  <sijmen> What's the deal with those new graphics? I've seen some of those pictures, and they look great, but there doesn't appear to be any kind of roadmap
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21:01:23  <Vornicus> When they have all the buildings and trains and so forth done, we'll get shiny stuff.
21:01:41  <sijmen> That sounds great. Will anything happen to the tile size?
21:02:40  <Vornicus> yeah, we'll probably be able to have much bigger tiles.
21:02:46  <sijmen> Woot!
21:03:02  <Vornicus> Stuff I've seen I think has tiles about four times the linear size of what we have now.
21:03:10  <sijmen> Wow
21:03:51  <sijmen> There wouldn't be any kind of mockup screenshot? Some of these tiles combined?
21:03:56  <Vornicus> Though since all the stuff is done in a 3d renderer, it should be possible to get arbitrarily detailed tiles, constrained only by graphical memory.
21:08:21  <Vornicus> though considering the number of those - there are hundreds of rail tiles, dozens of road tiles, something like 150 total buildings, 50 or so trains, 19 distinct blank tile directions with something like fifteen different regular terrain types...
21:09:21  <sijmen> But many of those can be generated, or not? Most 3D tools I know support some sort of script-based batch rendering
21:09:36  <Vornicus> I'm talking the amount of stuff we need to keep in memory.
21:10:29  <sijmen> Ah, yes, stupid
21:10:43  *** sw4y [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:13:27  <Vornicus> there /are/ things that you can generate instead of holding though.  I've got somewhere around here an attempt at making the terrain smooth... to do it with sprites you'd need hundreds of individual items, but if you run it as a 3D routine and just apply T&L to it as you go you get to the point where you need only the textures, and you can get an arbitrary amount of detail.
21:15:28  <Born_Acorn> OpenTTD's gui seems very minimalistic compared to other games, especially at 1280x1024
21:16:41  <Vornicus>
21:16:43  <Bjarni> <-- just updated the real life info on this engine
21:16:45  <Bjarni> comments?
21:17:48  <Vornicus> meep.  forgot to put it in the right place.  refresh
21:18:12  <Bjarni> Vornicus: still not found
21:18:19  <Bjarni> now it's there
21:18:28  <Bjarni> wow, looks nice
21:19:02  <sijmen> Me and my friends are constantly dropped from the server with 'out of sync' errors. Can anything be down about that?
21:19:14  *** Mukke [] has quit []
21:19:42  <peter1138> KUDr: << sort this guy out ;p
21:19:56  <Bjarni> sijmen: you got a stable connection as well as free CPU time?
21:19:56  <KUDr> ok
21:20:41  <Bjarni> nice, we got an svn timeline :D
21:20:50  <Bjarni> I mean besides svn log
21:20:53  <peter1138> ...
21:20:57  <peter1138> you didn't know about that? :P
21:21:01  <Bjarni> no
21:21:31  <Bjarni> I don't think I needed it anyway
21:21:37  <Bjarni> I mean I get the mails
21:21:45  <sijmen> Bjarni, connection is stable as far as I know, CPU time.. not sure
21:21:48  <sijmen> Vehicles are lagging
21:22:32  <Bjarni> lag is a sign that you got problems that could result in the desyncs
21:22:56  <sijmen> The CPU is idling 95%
21:23:12  <Bjarni> on the server as well?
21:23:17  <sijmen> Hmm, is there some way I can use to check the connection?
21:23:20  <sijmen> Yeah, on the server
21:23:21  <Vornicus> Bjarni: that's actually a clipping of wholemap2.jpg in the same place.
21:23:33  <Vornicus> which is a render I made some months ago.
21:23:58  <Bjarni> sijmen: you can't check the connection yet :(
21:24:09  <Bjarni> normal ping gives a pretty good idea though
21:24:26  <Bjarni> also you can type some stuff in the console to make it better
21:24:29  <sijmen> 1.4 ms :)
21:24:30  <Bjarni> I forgot what though
21:25:26  <Bjarni> 	<peter1138>	KUDr: << sort this guy out ;p <-- well he defines himself as a freak, so what do you expect?
21:25:43  <KUDr> heh
21:25:45  <peter1138> a bit more respect ;p
21:26:41  <Vornicus> In any case, it's possible to make a smooth world and populate it with sprites like normal; my version is not ready for that sort of work, though.  it would still need earthworks, for instance, and may need to render roads and rails itself too, to make them look sane.
21:27:29  <Bjarni> Vornicus: how do it work?
21:27:43  <Bjarni> I guess it's not just new sprites
21:27:52  <Vornicus> It's not.
21:28:07  <Vornicus> Actually what it does is it uses beziers.
21:28:35  <Vornicus> it interpolates linearly through each map cell, then uses biquadratic interpoation on the nine points around any individual corner.
21:29:03  <Bjarni> sounds slow compared to sprites
21:29:12  <Vornicus> I once tried to calculate how many individual sprites you'd need for this job, and it was a pretty absurd number.
21:29:27  <MiHaMiX> Possible bug report on 0.4.7:
21:29:57  <MiHaMiX> it's impossible to destroy a power plant with the appropriate patches set to on
21:30:24  <MiHaMiX> LOL
21:30:27  <MiHaMiX> it's a translation bug
21:30:29  <MiHaMiX> sorry :)
21:30:32  <Vornicus> (because your sprites for this would depend on not only the corners of THIS cell, but the corners of all the cells immediately around this one)
21:31:25  <Bjarni> ok, one bug report closed (even before getting opened) :D
21:31:29  <MiHaMiX> :DDD
21:31:33  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: no.
21:31:41  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: a translation bug is being filed.
21:32:03  <Bjarni> but it's not a bug in my "world", so it is closed for me ;)
21:32:09  <MiHaMiX> :P
21:32:34  <Bjarni> <Vornicus>	(because your sprites for this would depend on not only the corners of THIS cell, but the corners of all the cells immediately around this one) <-- sounds slow as well. How do you do it then?
21:32:49  <Vornicus> Well, I do it exactly like that.
21:32:54  <Vornicus> Well, sort of.
21:33:43  <Bjarni> even though it looks nice, if it is so slow that it will never be committed, it sounds like a waste of time
21:33:46  <Vornicus> Trick here is that the individual cells aren't really rendered as a whole - Each bezier patch covers 1/4 of each of four cells.
21:34:10  *** ^Cartman^ [] has quit ["Que?"]
21:34:48  <Vornicus> anyway it would /still/ be faster than using software video, even with all this manipulation.
21:35:12  <sijmen> Good night all
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21:36:06  <Bjarni> you mean you do it in hardware?
21:36:28  <Vornicus> Yeah.  Everything I have described is /trivial/ in OpenGL.
21:36:43  <Bjarni> I guess so
21:37:02  <Bjarni> also you use the platform that should be the best to develop OpenGL stuff on
21:37:30  *** Mucht is now known as Mucht|zZz
21:37:52  <Bjarni> you got some sort of fps counter?
21:38:30  <Bjarni> and (more interesting): can I try it?
21:38:34  <Vornicus> No.  Actually this stuff I haven't gotten around to implementing because I've gotten bogged down.
21:39:10  <Bjarni> then how did you make the screenshots? Surely you did make some code
21:39:12  <Vornicus> As soon as I finish a few other little things I'll have another go at it; I still need to learn how to do texturing in OpenGL.
21:39:44  <Vornicus> Yeah the screenshots are from a POV-Ray script...
21:39:59  <Vornicus> but it just uses textures, triangles, and parallel lighting.
21:40:51  <Vornicus> the crappy thing about povray is that it does all the calculation as text manipulation, and I wrote the bezier code by hand, so it takes five minutes to run the calculations.
21:42:10  <Vornicus> and then more time to do all that.  But again this is done all in software, not even vaguely efficiently, by a system designed to look nice instead of be fast.
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21:46:15  <Kalpa> \o/
21:47:35  <xahodo> Hello
21:48:03  <KUDr> <peter1138> KUDr: << sort this guy out ;p <-- OK, done
21:52:34  <MeusH> goodnight
21:52:39  *** MeusH [] has quit ["Goodbye"]
21:53:29  *** Maedhros [n=jc@gentoo/developer/Maedhros] has quit ["leaving"]
21:53:32  * Vornicus vaguely wonders if he explained that properly.
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21:57:10  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
21:57:59  <Bjarni> KUDr: I just remembered something. The new map thing also wonders about pathfinding
21:58:06  <Belugas_Gone> Good night, play well, dream well
21:58:13  <Bjarni> bye Belugas_Gone
21:58:15  <Bjarni> o_O
21:58:33  <Bjarni> actually Belugas_Gone goes to bed before me even though I'm hours ahead of him???
21:58:44  <KUDr> Bjarni: do you know some details?
21:58:50  <Belugas_Gone> Becasue I have to go home,
21:58:56  <Bjarni> ahh
21:58:57  <Belugas_Gone> put batby to bath
21:59:01  <Bjarni> end of work day :)
21:59:02  <Belugas_Gone> supper
21:59:06  <Belugas_Gone> TTD
21:59:10  <Belugas_Gone> and then... sleep
21:59:12  <Bjarni> not TTD
21:59:14  <Bjarni> OTTD
21:59:16  <Bjarni> ;)
21:59:17  <Belugas_Gone> O
21:59:28  <Belugas_Gone> stucked in buffer ;)
21:59:40  <Bjarni> heh
21:59:51  <Bjarni> <KUDr>	Bjarni: do you know some details? <-- hmm, I guess so
22:00:14  <Bjarni> it was something regarding caching stuff in the map
22:00:28  <Bjarni> Belugas_Gone might be able to explain it better :p
22:01:07  <KUDr> hmm, ok, then later
22:01:54  <Vornicus> It would be nice to be able to see which direction a signal block is pointed, especially on segments that go east-west; it's sometimes hard to tell.
22:02:02  <KUDr> simplest yapf configurations will not cache anything - i'll add it later to support all versions
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22:04:10  <Bjarni> egladil, glx: didn't newmap have some idea regarding pathfinding?
22:04:17  <KUDr> Vornicus: I guess that if you stay on the signal it is surrounded by two blocks (sometimes only one)
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22:05:36  <Bjarni> KUDr: also blathijs works on the pool system, that will when committed add pools for stuff like pathfinding to quick dynamically allocated cache that you clear quick
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22:05:56  <Vornicus> just occured to me that there's a pretty simple way to sorta do that already: add stuff to a grf such that in addition to drawing a signal, it draws arrows on the track.
22:06:18  <Vornicus> dunno how easy that actually is though.
22:06:40  <Bjarni> a cache that can be used to say go though junctions and cache which way you went to find the fastest one and once you decided, you don't need the cache anymore
22:07:22  <Bjarni> Vornicus: it's easy to draw it, but to actually add it, you will have a problem
22:07:28  <RichK67> hi all
22:07:30  <Bjarni> you see, you need to encode a grf file
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22:07:38  <Bjarni> and the codec contains i386 asm
22:07:44  <Bjarni> hi RichK67
22:07:53  <Vornicus> ew
22:08:21  <Vornicus> I do have an XP box downstairs.
22:08:24  <KUDr> Bjarni: it is probably something else than I want to use the cache for
22:08:54  <Bjarni> Vornicus: ok, then you can use the grf codec ;)
22:09:00  <Vornicus> right
22:09:28  <Bjarni> KUDr: well, the idea is that you can generate a linked list sort of thing, only it's faster than a real linked list
22:09:30  <KUDr> Bjarni: the PF cache should be able to tell what other junctions one junction leads to
22:09:46  <KUDr> hmm
22:09:53  <KUDr> then I need to study it
22:09:59  <KUDr> to understand better
22:10:28  <RichK67> hmmm.... looks like people dont like my latest airport :(
22:10:53  <KUDr> Bjarni: I don't need list but network
22:11:14  <Vornicus> RichK67: link me?
22:11:16  <KUDr> each node has up to 4 connected nodes
22:11:37  <Bjarni> ahh, you want to make that routing thing with nodes and edges
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22:11:48  <KUDr> yes
22:11:54  <Bjarni> I coded something like that today
22:11:59  <KUDr> :)
22:12:03  <Bjarni> but not anything that can be used for OTTD
22:12:04  <KUDr> give me it
22:12:09  <KUDr> aha
22:12:10  <RichK67>  its the type 3 extended i like, but nobody else seems to!
22:12:23  <Bjarni> because: 1: it's for uni for learning, 2: it's... java
22:13:05  <KUDr> not the language, but algorithms matter
22:13:49  <KUDr> Java has one big advantage against c/c++ : garbage collector
22:16:53  <Bjarni> I don't think you can use the algorithm though
22:17:00  <Bjarni> it's too basic for that
22:18:06  <Bjarni> basically it's a class that got the functions to add/remove edges and an a 2 dimentional array to hold all nodes and how to get from one to another
22:18:25  <Bjarni> not really something that can be easily scaled to OTTD scale while not making it dead slow
22:18:44  <Bjarni> it works for like 10 nodes, but you don't want to add more than that
22:19:45  <Bjarni> remember that memory allocation for it is n^2 bytes, where n is the number of nodes and it's dead slow when add/removing nodes
22:19:49  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4186 /branch/yapf/ (rail_cmd.c road_cmd.c station_cmd.c tunnelbridge_cmd.c): - Fix: RailType instead of uint in 3 functions to suppress compilation errors (VC8)
22:20:07  <Bjarni> but it's not the same as I would not talk about it in OTTD ;)
22:20:19  <KUDr> OK
22:20:49  <Bjarni> I have used other stuff in OTTD, that I learned at uni
22:20:54  <Bjarni> like pointers :D
22:21:12  <KUDr> good
22:21:30  <KUDr> C without pointers is bit unusable
22:22:45  <Bjarni> you will be amazed to see how much can be done without pointers
22:22:56  <Bjarni> it's a matter of creativity
22:23:10  <Bjarni> I didn't say that it's a good idea to do so, but it can be done
22:23:22  <Bjarni> OTTD could be coded without a single pointer
22:23:27  <KUDr> never tried it
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22:24:21  <Vornicus> and no cheating with 1-length arrays!
22:24:36  <KUDr> :)
22:25:00  <Bjarni> heh, I once made a whole app in main (or whatever the name was in pascal) and fucked up the compiler because it could not handle 64k+ chars
22:25:40  <Bjarni> that was when I had learned how to code, but not how to actually make useful stuff, like splitting stuff into several files
22:26:01  <Bjarni> shit, it's more than 10 years ago
22:26:06  <Bjarni> I'm getting old
22:26:08  <Bjarni> :s
22:26:34  <KUDr> not as old as me
22:26:53  <KUDr> u r still yang
22:27:11  * Bjarni goes to look for ying
22:27:21  <RichK67> hmm... and its my birthday sunday.... (im older than M.Schumacher ;) )
22:27:33  <KUDr> :) young
22:28:06  <Bjarni> RichK67: turning 39?
22:28:33  <RichK67> yeah - its frightening when you realise that you were at uni before today's graduates were born!! :)
22:28:47  <RichK67> the 67 sort of gives it away ;)
22:28:59  <KUDr> yes, i know that
22:29:11  <Bjarni> hehe
22:29:41  <RichK67> and i started programming when Jimmy Carter was still in the Whitehouse!
22:29:47  <Bjarni> it's scary to see people coding in here (good coders) and then tell them that I used computers before they were born
22:30:20  <RichK67> lol - good to know some other devs are "vintage" coders ;)
22:30:51  * Vornicus got his first computer at 3 1/2, in 1984.
22:30:58  <Vornicus> And sorta learned basic.
22:31:15  <Vornicus> but I've only really been programming for about 5 years.
22:31:24  <Bjarni> you beat me by one year
22:31:31  <Vornicus> wow
22:31:53  <RichK67> started computing degree in 1985 ;)
22:32:02  <Vornicus> sad thing is that this means that I've been typing longer than I've been writing by hand.
22:32:27  <Bjarni> don't say that
22:32:30  <KUDr> I started 1979 on old ADT
22:32:38  <Bjarni> it makes me realise that the same is true for me
22:32:43  <RichK67> i miss the Z80 :)
22:32:44  <Vornicus> heh
22:32:52  <Bjarni> hmm
22:33:01  <Bjarni> only old people in here right now....
22:33:09  * Vornicus is but 24.
22:33:14  <RichK67> no stamina these youngsters ;)
22:33:39  <Bjarni> hmm
22:33:59  <RichK67> btw bjarni - have you had chance to have a look at some of the code?
22:34:04  <Vornicus> My father used to be a programmer, but it's been so long that I never thought of him as one until I found a copy of his resume from 1982.
22:34:27  <Bjarni> if you are 24, you were born in 1981, making you 3 years old in 1984... really young to get a computer
22:34:36  <Vornicus> yeah
22:34:39  <Vornicus> it was a C64.
22:35:09  <Vornicus> The C64 user's manual I think was the first book I read on my own without having it first read to me.
22:35:30  <Bjarni> I never got around to read it
22:35:35  <Vornicus> heh
22:35:57  <Bjarni> it was in a strange and completely unknown language (English)
22:36:05  <Vornicus> ahaaa
22:36:12  <RichK67> now that would be a helluva port - zx spectrum and C64 versions of OTTD :)
22:37:14  <Bjarni> <RichK67>	btw bjarni - have you had chance to have a look at some of the code? <-- I intended to, but then I fixed a bug in OTTD instead
22:37:26  <Bjarni> that's a decent tradeoff :)
22:38:19  <Bjarni> Vornicus: btw are you good at using Xcode?
22:38:23  <RichK67> lol - okies.... any thoughts about another airport? ive tried to do some long/thin ones, but 3 tiles wide is a bugger
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22:39:06  <Bjarni> I'm unsure about them. I kind of like #3, but people in general appears to be against it
22:39:43  <Bjarni> [23:16] 	<Bjarni> <-- just updated the real life info on this engine
22:39:43  <Bjarni> [23:16] 	<Bjarni>	comments?
22:39:48  <RichK67> yeah, it would have good throughput, and be almost lock-free (very easy to segregate - only 4 blocks)
22:39:50  <Bjarni> 90 minutes and nobody said anything...
22:40:45  <Vornicus> Bjarni: I haven't touched it in a while.  I usually use TextWrangler.
22:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> [31.03. 00:22] <Bjarni> remember that memory allocation for it is n^2 bytes, where n is the number of nodes and it's dead slow when add/removing nodes <- for OTTD that is way too much, you rather use dynamic arrays to store the neighbours... as a track system is usually very loosely connected
22:41:42  <Bjarni> Vornicus: I'm a bit confused about interfaces. I made a button, but is not really sure how to do an action in the code when it's pressed
22:41:43  <Vornicus> (My native programming language is Python, so the heavy stuff of most actual IDEs gets in the way)
22:43:03  <egladil> [31 00:04 CEST] Bjarni egladil, glx: didn't newmap have some idea regarding pathfinding?  <== we had some ideas about GetTileTrackStatus
22:43:43  <Vornicus> Bjarni: sadly I have never done any GUI programming, so I can't help you there.
22:44:15  <Bjarni> Vornicus: I have never actually made a GUI before besides a little SDL thing a few years ago (which I happily forgot because I haven't used it since)
22:44:34  <Bjarni> 	<Eddi|zuHause2>	[31.03. 00:22] <Bjarni> remember that memory allocation for it is n^2 bytes, where n is the number of nodes and it's dead slow when add/removing nodes <- for OTTD that is way too much, you rather use dynamic arrays to store the neighbours... as a track system is usually very loosely connected <-- yeah, I said that it's not suited for OTTD scale
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22:46:33  <RichK67> bjarni: usually there will be some code area where you can list an objects events - and write the event handler there
22:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> what a decent pathfinder has to do is: identify parallel tracks, and balance traffic through them
22:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> where the first part is the problematic one
22:47:27  <RichK67> eg. in vis basic, the form has buttons on, and in the form code area, you can say what happens when the button is clicked, double clicked, etc
22:47:28  <Bjarni> RichK67: yeah, I know. The question is where :)
22:47:29  <KUDr> <Eddi|zuHause2>: any idea how to do it?
22:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> once identified, the balancing should not be difficult
22:47:42  <Vornicus> I vaguely remember seeing a tutorial about it somewhere, Bjarni.
22:47:52  <Bjarni> yeah, I can remember SDL worked that way
22:48:22  <Vornicus> sadly it was for objective C, which generally offends my sensibilities.
22:48:24  <Bjarni> the issue now is that I used "interface builder" to make the interface and now I can't figure out how to link the actual code with the interface
22:48:46  <Bjarni> yeah, Apple tend to use Objective C for OS interface
22:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> KUDr_wrk: well... let's assume each signal is an edge between two nodes
22:49:31  <Bjarni> so the same goes for the OSX related files in OTTD (like the cocoa video driver, even though it looks really C like)
22:49:34  <Vornicus> okay, I found the tutorial I used.
22:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> you could eleminate each node that has only 2 neighbours (single track)
22:50:05  <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause2>	KUDr_wrk: well... let's assume each signal is an edge between two nodes <-- I think everybody got that far without your help :p
22:50:25  <Vornicus> X-Code -> X-Code Help -> Cocoa group -> Developing Cocoa Objective-C Applications: A Tutorial
22:50:25  <Bjarni> Vornicus: link?
22:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> if you do that often enough, parallel tracks will become one single edge
22:50:32  <RichK67> anyone have any further thoughts on airports - im about 50% done on coding the Type 3 extended. should i finish, or abandon. I will make the mini heliport (3 helipads + hangar) as I think  that looks good, but am I wasting my time on the main airport?
22:50:39  <Bjarni> that is sort of a link... good enough :)
22:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> (or a multi-edge between two 'real' nodes)
22:51:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> that would be my first approach...
22:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> of course, this reduced graph cannot be generated on each path query
22:52:18  <KUDr> I thought about using junctions as nodes
22:52:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> well yes, that will result in such a graph
22:52:44  <Vornicus> Have fun with that, Bjarni.
22:52:51  <Bjarni> :p
22:52:57  <Bjarni> I can't find it :(
22:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> all non-junction track segments will get unified to one edge
22:53:05  <Bjarni> maybe it's because I use Xcode 2.2
22:53:11  <Bjarni> they changed a lot of stuff
22:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> that edge could be weighted with length/number of tracks, and of course directions
22:53:38  * Bjarni tries google
22:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> and wether it is a station or not
22:53:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> (this will get important)
22:53:57  <KUDr> yes, but changing the track can block another train
22:54:16  <KUDr> so it must take in consideration all other nearby trains
22:54:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> on building a track, you have to recalculate the affected graph bits
22:55:09  <KUDr> hmm
22:55:10  <Bjarni> also you will have to look at signals on each edge
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22:55:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, every node and edge must have a reference to all trains using it (or reserving to use it)
22:55:33  <Bjarni> not to mention the speed signs when calculating length (units or whatever we should call it)
22:55:41  <KUDr> yes, so far i got too
22:55:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> as well as each train has a reference to each node and edge it has reserved
22:55:52  <RichK67> any airport responses? (if none, type 3 ext will die....)
22:55:56  <KUDr> then junction registers all approached trains
22:56:25  <Bjarni> RichK67: why should it die?
22:56:39  <KUDr> but then you must also take in consideration their speed, their priorities, their other possible paths
22:56:53  <RichK67> takes time, and so far too many ppl complaining about its unreality
22:56:54  <KUDr> and you get to too complex task
22:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, junction nodes will get complicated
22:57:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> for large junctions, you should probably not try to get a "perfect" result
22:57:48  <RichK67> only way around the "unreality" is to have a wider airport, and we already have my commuter as a 4 tile width airport
22:58:12  <KUDr> Eddi|zuHause2: i would like to simplify that task
22:58:46  <KUDr> i.e. by having special waypoints that can mark such doubled tracks
22:59:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> automatic or user placed?
22:59:09  <KUDr> user placed
22:59:25  <KUDr> so you can mark your highways
22:59:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67's patch with the speed signs looks like this
23:00:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i rather thought of automatic things...
23:00:49  <KUDr> it can be automated later
23:01:06  <KUDr> better to do it step-by-step
23:01:12  <KUDr> and tune it
23:01:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> like i said... all parallel tracks will get reduced to one edge, and each junction gets reduced to one node
23:01:42  <KUDr> but they don't share junctions
23:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> especially stations would be edges.
23:01:56  <KUDr> junction is one tile w/ crossing tracks
23:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... i thought of junction as the entire signal block
23:02:31  <Bjarni> I think the best solution would be to store length of each edge (excluding signals and stuff like that, but including turn penalty) and then when a train (right now I'm thinking about trains only as they are the complex ones) wants to go down a certain edge, the pathfinder can follow it to detect red signals and speed signs and then see if the other edge is faster
23:02:33  <Bjarni> example
23:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> an edge would be a whole bunch of tracks in my design
23:03:34  <KUDr> Bjarni: the optimal result for one train can be disaster for other
23:03:44  <Bjarni> if edge A is 12 and edge B is 15, then it checks A and learns that it gets a penalty of 4 due to a speed sign and nothing is present on B, so it selects B. If A didn't have any speed signs, it would pick A without checking current status of B since it would never be faster than A
23:04:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> it would know the trains and the signals on the way
23:04:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> and can query them to dynamically update the weighted length
23:04:39  <KUDr> then we need event handlers
23:04:45  <KUDr> hmm
23:05:13  <KUDr> then pathfinder must contain also signals and trains
23:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> a train itself would only know a "general" path from the current position to the goal edge (station)
23:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> while the nodes then generate a "fine" path through the signal block
23:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> when the train arrives at the entrance signal
23:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> it then querys the exit edge to give an exit signal
23:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> and then generates a path from the entrance to the exit signal
23:07:01  <KUDr> hmm
23:07:04  <KUDr> maybe
23:07:18  <KUDr> its too late for me to think
23:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> the description is very high level ;)
23:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's only 1AM... the best time of the day ;)
23:09:01  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: how will you handle a junction node that is 50 tiles long?
23:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> you probably get problems there ;)
23:09:37  <Bjarni> I mean if you enter in one end and exits out the other end, you travelled 50 tiles that was not calculated in the edge thing
23:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> while on an edge, a train has no option but to go straight on, stop at signal, or turn around (only if 2 way section, like station)
23:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you would want to get these sections as long as possible
23:12:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> a junction node is a graph in itself
23:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> it has entrance signals, exit signals, 2 way signals and switch tiles
23:13:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> the odd straight tile that might be in there, can be reduced out, like before
23:15:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> a train that is on a junction node can update its path if the assigned exit signal changes (only, if that exit signal is still reachable from the position)
23:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> at this point, it would probably be easier to just integrate PBS in such a junction node, than to do it seperately
23:17:25  * KUDr must go to bed (gn all)
23:18:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> as a modification to the junction node's local pathfinding method
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23:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> on entering a junction node (that is, right before passing the entrance signal), the node finds all reachable exit signals (with dynamically blocking already reserved paths)
23:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> then passes this list to the exit edge
23:21:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> the exit edge chooses one of these signals, minimum of the current weight modifications
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23:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> wb ;)
23:22:58  <KUDr> :)
23:23:22  <KUDr> I like VNC
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23:26:50  <MagicJohn>
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23:28:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> just so you have it in your log:
23:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> [31.03. 01:22] <Eddi|zuHause2> on entering a junction node (that is, right before passing the entrance signal), the node finds all reachable exit signals (with dynamically blocking already reserved paths)
23:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> [31.03. 01:22] <Eddi|zuHause2> then passes this list to the exit edge
23:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> [31.03. 01:23] <Eddi|zuHause2> the exit edge chooses one of these signals, minimum of the current weight modifications
23:29:02  <Bjarni> MagicJohn: good one :)
23:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> (when you are awake enough to think about it)
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23:34:14  <RichK67> okies... new airport design... comments please...
23:35:16  <Bjarni> heh, misread comment as commit and I thought "without looking at it? what is he on?"
23:35:18  <Bjarni> :)
23:35:45  <RichK67> commit would be nice ;)
23:38:44  <Bjarni> how about changing the 2nd loading bay (counted from the hangar) into a building that people use to board planes. A tunnel could then connect the buildings and there would not be need for any busses crossing the taxi ways
23:40:06  <RichK67> reduces it to 3 terms only :(
23:40:13  <Bjarni> yeah
23:40:44  <Bjarni> I also wonder about reserving two helipads...
23:41:04  <Bjarni> how about changing them to plane loading pads?
23:41:31  <Bjarni> actually it could make the airport much smaller to do so
23:41:51  <Bjarni> (if we keep to 3 pads only)
23:42:07  <Bjarni> making it an efficient small airport
23:42:18  <RichK67> oh yeah, i see flat 3 building at back, with 3 terms
23:43:45  <RichK67> could have 5 or 6 terms if needed... keep 3x13 size, flat 3 across top, a central small outbuilding 3 up from hangar with 2 terms either side
23:44:13  <Bjarni> yeah, that could work too
23:44:28  <RichK67> coding...
23:45:25  <Bjarni> you could make a small and a large version of this design since space is sometimes an issue, specially in late games
23:46:29  <Bjarni> it would also be nice if you can make the same long airport, just turned 90 degrees so it's long the other way (some limited space locations would like that)
23:47:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> does the system allow runways the other direction?
23:47:50  <RichK67> ok... updated piccy....
23:48:06  <Bjarni> I think so, but we miss sprites for them or something like that
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23:48:46  <RichK67> that would need all new sprites, and a separate state machine, but aircraft would be ok on it - heck, they could land diagonally if needed!
23:49:39  <RichK67> [00:47] Eddi|zuHause2: does the system allow runways the other direction?   yes. any direction you like for any vehicle movement on the airport
23:49:44  <Bjarni> separate state machine?
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23:49:58  <RichK67> not code, just an extra set of data
23:50:27  <Bjarni> oh, I misunderstood you. Of course it will need a new state machine to make a new airport ;)
23:50:59  <RichK67> yeah, it seems odd in a way to call the data a state machine, but thats the OTTD convention ;)
23:51:33  <RichK67> state table is probably a better description
23:51:45  <Bjarni> Darkvater decided to call it that when he coded it (as one of the first thing he ever coded in the game)
23:52:01  <Bjarni> if not the first ever
23:52:27  <Bjarni> I can remember two years ago when he was that non developer, who looked at airports
23:53:24  <Bjarni> is it possible to put fences on the taxiways?
23:53:36  <Bjarni> I mean it looks like you can place a road next to it to connect it
23:53:41  <RichK67> its generally good code, but i met a nasty quirk.... when it hits the "ENDLANDING" state, it automatically picks a terminal, whether you told it to or not
23:55:15  <RichK67> bjarni - its a sketch... it will get fences when ppl think its worth doing... (i dont want to spend time messing with the sprite combos to add fences, if everyone is going to do a "Type 3" on it ;) )
23:56:08  <RichK67> the endlanding thing meant that it always picked from the first terminal group, first, which isnt good on a multi-group airport!
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23:57:09  <Vornicus> type 3?
23:58:08  <RichK67> i proposed an airport called a type 3, which i liked so much i started coding it, before getting killer feedback next day... wasted my time on it
23:59:05  <Vornicus> (it would be nice to have airports with multiple directions for landing planes.)
23:59:08  <Vornicus> ah
23:59:12  * Vornicus thinks

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