Log for #openttd on 4th April 2006:
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05:55:02  <zen--> jey
05:55:05  <zen--> :)
06:01:47  *** Netsplit <-> quits: Zr40
06:01:47  <CIA-5> tron * r4269 /trunk/water_cmd.c: We don't use GNU indentation style
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06:04:55  <CIA-5> tron * r4270 /trunk/industry_cmd.c: Rename some bogus map5 to gfx
06:13:58  <peter1138> morning
06:15:55  * Vornicus ponders that he has never actually /seen/ gnu indentation style.
06:16:14  <Vornicus> other than in works about indentation style.
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06:19:22  <peter1138> heh
06:20:45  <Rockj> how far has the AI in nightly build come?
06:21:05  <Rockj> more then vehicles?
06:21:26  <peter1138> it has hardly been touched
06:22:00  <Rockj> oh, I just noticed there was an aplha ai. hehe.
06:22:57  <Vornicus> there is an alpha AI which can take you to school on buses.
06:25:09  <CIA-5> tron * r4271 /trunk/ (smallmap_gui.c tree_cmd.c tree_map.h): s/\<TR_/TREE_/ resp. s/\<TR_/TREE_GROUND/
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06:43:22  <zen--> im thinking about providing SpiderMonkey javascript embedding to openttd
06:44:53  <Fujitsu> ...
06:45:17  <zen--> would that help custom AI scripters in the long run?
06:45:33  <zen--> or instead provide a com object
06:46:18  <Fujitsu> COM!?
06:46:43  <peter1138> gpmi will help ai scripters
06:48:48  <zen--> k
06:48:50  <zen--> :)
06:52:37  <zen--> c with constructors, instance methods etc would look similar to:
06:54:34  <Fujitsu> Why the .NET-generated code, zen--?
06:56:57  <zen--> refactoring, classes, synthetic sugar... compiled down to c
06:57:10  <zen--> note that the base class library if dot net is not used
06:57:54  * Vornicus gently points out that C++ was and essentially still is a set of gnarled preprocessor scripts for C.
06:58:08  <zen-->
06:58:09  <Fujitsu> :O
06:58:14  <zen--> the original source
06:58:18  <Fujitsu> It isn't, Vornicus!
06:59:03  <zen--> which is more straight forward?
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06:59:20  <zen--> i bet the later
07:00:46  <peter1138> casting ints to int!
07:01:06  <peter1138> it's shit
07:01:25  <Fujitsu> Why .NET!?
07:01:39  <peter1138> get rid of all casts, and all redundant returns, and see where you are then
07:01:58  <zen--> redundancy will be removed later
07:01:59  <zen--> :)
07:02:00  <peter1138> (all pointless casts, that is)
07:02:24  <zen--> perhaps some inlineing and code analysis aswell
07:02:43  * Fujitsu gently points out to Vornicus that C was and essentially still is a set of gnarled preprocessor scripts for ASM.
07:03:02  <zen--> exactly
07:03:04  <zen--> btw
07:03:06  <peter1138> why are you discussing this in #openttd anyway? would #c or #msil (or whatever) be better?
07:03:18  <zen--> because i will use it in openttd sometime near
07:03:32  <peter1138> *snigger*
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07:17:03  <zen--> removed redundant returns:
07:17:23  <zen--> now
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07:17:32  <zen--> you mean casting to int from literal ints?
07:19:36  <zen--> why .net? well now i can code at higher level and compile into native c, plus i get to write custom inline c or asm as i see fit in my .net source
07:20:02  <zen--> i wonder when the ms will be on the market with a similar product
07:37:05  * Vornicus looks through all that stuff.  Wonders what the hell all these methods do, since they're named uselessly.
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07:45:37  * Vornicus fiddles, decides that this stuff is useless because you have to go over it with a fine-toothed comb anyway to get rid of all the idiocies.
07:48:27  * Fujitsu thinks it's silly.
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08:01:16  <MiHaMiX> morning
08:09:32  <ThePizzaKing> morning MiHaMiX
08:10:16  * Vornicus wonders if ThePizzaKing delivers.
08:10:50  <ThePizzaKing> only if you pay much much dollar sign thingies
08:11:25  * Fujitsu eats TPK.
08:11:31  <ThePizzaKing> not again
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08:16:19  * ThePizzaKing 's tea is ready
08:16:22  <ThePizzaKing> wooooooooo
08:16:29  <ThePizzaKing> and it's not Pizza
08:16:47  * Vornicus wonders if there's a money back satisfaction guarantee.
08:17:22  <ThePizzaKing> well, there is, but there are many conditions
08:17:42  <ThePizzaKing> 1. Only if you haven't eaten any of the Pizza
08:17:58  <ThePizzaKing> 2. Only if you payed twice as much in the first place
08:18:10  <ThePizzaKing> then you get the value of the Pizza back :)
08:21:12  <Vornicus>
08:22:07  <FauxFaux>
08:24:26  <Fujitsu>
08:24:27  <Fujitsu>
08:26:05  <Scia>
08:26:24  * FauxFaux
08:36:23  <Vornicus> :P
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09:21:52  <Sacro> Richk67: ping
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10:14:08  <MiHaMiX> brb, reboot after 90 days
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10:18:13  * MiHaMiX is back :D
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11:11:03  <zen--> any good cvs clients for windows (vs05)?
11:11:48  <peter1138> tortoise
11:11:48  <Fujitsu> I don't know about CVS... SVN is more my stuff.
11:15:53  <zen--> openttd is using both?
11:16:10  <Fujitsu> SVN is what it uses.
11:18:23  *** TL|Away is now known as TrueLight
11:35:55  <CIA-5> celestar * r4272 /trunk/ (npf.c rail.c ship_cmd.c station.h station_map.h): -Codechange: Moved the map-accessing stuff from station.h into station_map.h
11:40:14  <peter1138> *sigh*
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11:45:55  <CIA-5> celestar * r4273 /trunk/station_map.h: -Fix: Removed a problem where trains would stop in the middle of a platform if there were both elrails and convrails along the platform
11:46:04  <CIA-5> egladil * r4274 /branch/32bpp/ (gfx.c gfx.h): [32bpp] -Make the blitter and sprite converter a bit more readable.
11:51:18  <CIA-5> celestar * r4275 /trunk/station_map.h: -Codechange: Use of map accessor functions inside station_map.h when possible
11:51:21  <Celestar> ok
11:51:26  <Celestar> me=>boss
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12:16:16  <MiHaMiX> hmm
12:17:19  <ThePizzaKing> MiHaMiX: Have you taken peter1138's job of saying 'hmm' at random times?
12:17:28  <Fujitsu> It would appear that way.
12:17:39  <Fujitsu> Although I took it for a number of hours on Saturday.
12:19:10  <MiHaMiX> ThePizzaKing: well, it's a shared job, I already sharing it with lots of people (including peter1138) for a long time :)
12:19:29  <ThePizzaKing> ah, ok then
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12:31:35  <CIA-5> celestar * r4276 /trunk/elrail.c: -Codechange: Cleaned DrawCatenaryOnBridge a bit (requested by Tron)
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12:36:41  <Tron> huh?
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12:45:55  <black_Nightmare> hey glx
12:46:21  <glx> hi black_Nightmare
12:56:03  * ThePizzaKing goes to bedd now
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12:56:17  <peter1138> hm
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13:07:22  <Celestar> <= happens only on release builds :S
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13:42:02  *** mode/#openttd [-o Darkvater] by Darkvater
13:52:44  <Darkvater> goddammit
13:53:05  <peter1138> morning
13:53:13  <Darkvater> STUDENTENREKENING -251,04 EUR
13:53:20  <Darkvater> my checkings account :(
13:53:23  <Darkvater> hi peter1138
13:53:24  <peter1138> o_O
13:53:33  <Celestar> Darkvater: ?
13:53:50  <Darkvater> slight money problems :s
13:54:03  <Celestar> nothing unknown ..
13:54:20  <Darkvater> this sucks, I never had a negative balance for the last 15 years
13:55:26  <Belugas> Does it mean you now have a gf?
13:55:57  <Darkvater> I'd wish. This is just me :(
13:56:51  <Belugas> Lesson I've learned : always pay with cash.  All but car and house, of course :)
13:57:57  <Celestar> bah I can't believe that pylon drawing fails on windows :S
13:59:50  <Darkvater> Belugas: I hate paying with cash, such a hassle
13:59:57  <Darkvater> but I always took care of me money
14:00:08  <Darkvater> well, except now it seems :/
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14:04:53  <Darkvater> Celestar: got a test/desync-server running?
14:05:40  <Celestar> Darkvater: no. should I=
14:05:41  <Celestar> ?
14:06:03  <Darkvater> you know to test it :)
14:06:08  <Belugas> I hate using credit card (or debit card, same thing) becasue it gives you a false sens of financial securitty.  With cash, you know what is left in your wallet, so you won't overrun your budget. Well.. that is my way of doing.
14:06:55  <Darkvater> Belugas: I only use CC to buy stuff on the internet. My cash card simply refuses to work if my account is negative, so that's ok as well
14:07:11  <Belugas> cash card?
14:07:15  <Darkvater> it's only when your monthly payments just deduct horrible amounts from the account
14:07:34  <Darkvater> Belugas: perhaps wrong name
14:07:38  <Darkvater> simple card with pin-code
14:07:53  <Belugas> Ho..., it is a debit card
14:07:59  <Celestar> I have an overrun limit of 1000 EUR
14:08:21  <glx> my card ask my bank for each operation
14:08:40  <Celestar> ok
14:08:49  <Darkvater> yeah that's the debit card then I think
14:08:57  <Celestar> any objection to introducing FACIL_BUOY and FINALLY get rid of HVOT_BUOY ?
14:08:59  <Darkvater> pinpas for the dutchies :)
14:09:30  <Belugas> not from me, Celestar
14:11:54  <Darkvater> lol though
14:12:01  <peter1138> i should get a credit card
14:12:11  <peter1138> they're good for only one thing: increasing your credit rating
14:12:12  <Darkvater> I am buying an xbox
14:12:29  <Darkvater> I wonder how I'll manage that with my current balance :p
14:12:40  <Belugas> peter1138 : that is worth something when shopping for a house :)
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14:13:19  <peter1138> indeed
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14:14:05  <Belugas> Funny : when I needed a credit card they all said : Yio don't have an history, blablabla...  Then, when finally VIAS let me have one, everybody is at the door offering theirs.
14:14:12  <blathijs> I forgot my PIN code last week, so I have to do everything from the handful of coins I have left...
14:14:29  <Darkvater> blathijs: auch
14:14:36  <blathijs> yup
14:14:43  <blathijs> It took me 4 days to remember it
14:14:55  <Darkvater> what was it?
14:15:16  <Darkvater> I bet you remembered ONE number on each day
14:15:20  <Darkvater> ^^
14:15:33  <blathijs> nope
14:15:43  <blathijs> I remembered that it was "something with a 7"
14:16:01  <Darkvater> go on ;)
14:16:26  <blathijs> And after the first 2 desperate tries, I thought, "Okay, now only one more try, I have to be absolutely sure"
14:16:44  <blathijs> Then I remembered, and punched in 3756
14:16:49  <blathijs> which blocked my card
14:16:57  <Darkvater> :)
14:17:06  <blathijs> a few minutes later I remembered that 3756 is the telephone number of our study association
14:17:11  <blathijs> D'oh!
14:17:19  <glx> my brother had the same story with his card
14:17:38  <glx> needed to call the bank to command a new card
14:18:00  <blathijs> The weird thing was that I forgot it on tuesday, and had absolutely no clue about what it was until friday night
14:18:04  <blathijs> yes, I did that too
14:18:25  <blathijs> waiting for my new pincode now (I think I can still reuse my old card, since I went there physically with ID)
14:18:43  <Darkvater> that is weird. At ABN AMRO I just go to the bank, tell'em I forgot the pincode, identify myself and set it up there
14:18:46  <Celestar> you guys need to use that stuff more often :P
14:19:17  <glx> funny thing is that he thougt to call me to look in his papers and give him is pin code after he blocked his card :)
14:19:24  <blathijs> Darkvater: Rabobank is more uptight about security I guess. Dunno why...
14:19:43  <blathijs> glx: I don't have it written down anywhere, I mean, who forgets his pincode?
14:19:52  <blathijs> anyway
14:19:54  * Darkvater points at noone in particular
14:19:54  <blathijs> Breakfast./
14:24:49  <Darkvater> blathijs: because it's a farmer's bank :P
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14:31:14  <Celestar> \o/ no more HVOT_BUOY
14:32:46  * Darkvater misses CIA
14:34:54  <Celestar> well not committed yet.
14:34:56  <Celestar> still testing.
14:35:56  <Celestar> BAH
14:36:00  <Celestar> buoys need their own code.
14:37:02  <glx> buoys can be considered like waypoints
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14:37:41  <Celestar> hm.
14:38:13  <glx> the problem is actually waypoints are railway specific
14:38:27  <Darkvater> and bouys are ship specific
14:39:17  <glx> I meant waypoint code
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14:40:33  <Celestar> I think a buoy should be part of MP_WATER
14:42:09  <Celestar> just like a waypoint is part of MP_RAILWAY
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14:50:38  <glx> yeah and there is enough free bits in MP_WATER to do so
14:54:08  <Brianetta> I need a new passphrase
14:54:51  <Brianetta> Something like hOwcbA4o9Dew&fhaK<7teAs=Ed(
14:54:56  <Brianetta> only longer
14:55:00  <Celestar> glx: the question is where to store it internally.
14:55:04  <Celestar> maybe waypoints.
14:55:04  <Brianetta> and perhaps a little less guessable
14:55:20  <Tron> <@Celestar> just like a waypoint is part of MP_RAILWAY <--- i think waypoints should just go away
14:55:33  <Celestar> Tron: you mean out of MP_RAILWAY?
14:56:00  <Celestar> they do come in handy at times.
14:56:41  <glx> in this case it's still possible to use a new tile type
14:56:52  <Celestar> YATT? :P
14:57:12  <glx> B,C,D,E,F are unused AFAIK :)
14:57:24  <Celestar> some will be used possibly :)
14:57:47  <Darkvater> I think Tron means that waypoints should be gone totally
14:58:05  <Darkvater> eg do not even have the possibility to build them even
14:58:11  <Celestar> Darkvater: and what should be the replacement for them?
14:58:31  <Darkvater> donnu, I'm not saying I agree
14:58:31  <Brianetta> Waypoints are important
14:58:51  <peter1138> there's always the ttdp way, heh
14:58:54  <Brianetta> I don't want some smelly freight train holding up my passenger trains
14:58:59  <Celestar> the TTDP way SUCKS
14:59:07  <Brianetta> What's the TTPD way?
14:59:13  <Celestar> using stations as waypoints
14:59:17  <peter1138> Brianetta: special stations that you can't stop at
14:59:19  <Brianetta> That way sucks
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14:59:31  <peter1138> it's better for one thing: you can span multiple tracks
14:59:40  <Brianetta> I like to keep orders lists short, and have "all stops" trains
14:59:42  <Celestar> Tron: you have come up with an alternative?
15:00:01  <Celestar> peter1138: waypoints can do that too, implementing it is rather easy imho.
15:00:34  <Brianetta> Are the waypoint graphics people keep drawing, based on signal boxes?
15:00:51  <peter1138> Celestar: ok :)
15:01:03  <peter1138> Brianetta: usually
15:01:10  <Brianetta> ah
15:01:26  <Brianetta> I keep seeing things like, "these are based on real waypoints seen in Germany" and so on
15:01:40  <Brianetta> and I'm thinking, "there's no such thing in real life..."
15:01:50  <Celestar> Brianetta: no waypoints.
15:02:09  <Celestar> but little checkpoints nearby railway crossings and stuff
15:02:16  <Brianetta> There's a railway junction near where I live which has a signpost telling you which track goes where
15:02:35  <Brianetta> Like the train driver can do anythin gabout the switch (:
15:03:32  <Celestar> Brianetta: he can stop and change it manually? ;)
15:04:15  <Brianetta> Celestar: Nope - it's not a manually operable switch.  I think it's for track maintenance crews.
15:04:23  <Celestar> possibly
15:04:31  * Celestar gets reminded of his track maintenance patch
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15:06:56  <Celestar> I also have a speed-limit-on-crossing patch
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15:07:54  <Celestar> we must do anything about the different loco types.
15:08:03  <Celestar> I don't like people using an ICE3 for pulling around coal.
15:08:13  <Celestar> I don't even thinks it would work out.
15:08:24  <peter1138> there is a callback that stops that
15:08:31  <peter1138> but we don't support it yet
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15:08:39  <Celestar> peter1138: when will we?
15:08:41  <Celestar> ;)
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15:08:49  <peter1138> hmm
15:08:50  <peter1138> well
15:08:57  <peter1138> i'll see what i can do tonight
15:09:06  <Celestar> how many callbacks do we miss?
15:09:07  <peter1138> it may not stop it, of course, as it depends what's in the grf
15:09:10  <peter1138> most, heh
15:09:17  <peter1138> we only do a few of the vehicle ones
15:09:17  <Celestar> or rather: how much of newgrf do we miss?
15:12:17  <Brianetta> Celestar: UKRS encourages correct use of locomotive.  I see people using Gresley A4s to pull coal, with the rolling stock limited to 70km/h.  When I point out that a tank engine is as fast, and costs about a tenth as much to buy and run, they get the idea.
15:15:14  <Celestar> Brianetta: do "we" support wagon speed limits properly?
15:15:34  <peter1138> partly
15:15:41  <peter1138> ttdp implements speed limits on default wagons too
15:15:46  <peter1138> as an option, i believe
15:15:48  <Brianetta> It works well enough with a grf
15:16:00  <Celestar> peter1138: well, THAT is easy enough to implement :P
15:16:04  <peter1138> it also increases the speed limit (by a user defined amount) if the wagon is empty
15:16:13  <peter1138> Celestar: yes, but probably not desirable
15:16:23  <Celestar> peter1138: difficulty setting
15:16:30  <peter1138> hmm
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15:17:52  <Kalpa> hmm.
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15:29:09  <Darkvater> hmm..
15:29:32  <glx> hmm...
15:30:45  <Darkvater> hmm\..*
15:31:31  <peter1138> hmm
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15:41:34  <black_Nightmare> couldn't canals be owned to a particular company?
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15:41:37  <black_Nightmare> just curious
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16:14:20  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4277 /branch/yapf/ (15 files): Sync with trunk
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16:31:19  <Patrick`> ooi, what happened to the realistic acceleration fix?
16:35:12  <Darkvater> KUDr: ping
16:35:28  <KUDr> I am at your service, my lord
16:35:54  <Patrick`> oh, and rar siggui
16:36:00  <Darkvater> you don't have to sync with trunk every day unless you change something locally so that it is worth syncing :)
16:36:35  <KUDr> it is easier for me to keep it in sync, then later sove many conflicts
16:36:45  <KUDr> and now i want to help Celestar
16:36:51  <KUDr> with elrail bug
16:37:04  <KUDr> and if i fix it, i will try it here
16:37:15  <KUDr> or is it bad idea?
16:39:41  <Darkvater> nah, it's ok
16:40:22  <KUDr> he has bug that happen on windows only (
16:40:30  <KUDr> so i try to find it
16:40:39  <Patrick`> oh, that reminds me
16:40:45  <Patrick`> I need to port my own project to windows
16:40:52  <Patrick`> it was platform-agnostic until I buggered around with it
16:41:14  <Patrick`> using stdout, setsid, chdir("/") and stupid crap like that
16:41:21  <Patrick`> well, sensible crap that's not on windows
16:42:39  <Patrick`> did diagonal cargo payment calculations ever get corrected?
16:43:49  <Noldo> are they calculated with L1 norm ?
16:44:07  <Belugas> Nice quote (anonymous tough) : "Mac users swear by their computers. PC users swear at their computers.
16:44:07  <Belugas> "
16:44:26  <Patrick`> my current understanding, which is 6 months out of date, is that it's done by delta_x plus delta_y
16:44:30  <Patrick`> not the RMS of the two
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16:47:30  <Bjarni> <KUDr>	I am at your service, my lord <-- I didn't call for you
16:47:50  <Patrick`> you rang?
16:48:02  <KUDr> sorry my lord, not alone
16:48:25  <Bjarni> Belugas: so true
16:48:47  <Belugas> Bjarni : I have to admit :)
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16:52:12  <Bjarni> lol @ the windows only elrail display bug
16:52:28  <KUDr> Bjarni: yes, crazy
16:52:45  <KUDr> and only in Release build
16:52:52  <KUDr> not in Debug
16:54:07  <Bjarni> I can't reproduce it
16:54:15  <Bjarni> so it really is windows only
16:54:51  <Bjarni> once again VS optimise to make a bug that no other platform get
16:55:00  <peter1138> gets
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16:55:18  <peter1138> (and optimises)
16:55:41  <Bjarni> I can remember the last time. It took ages to find because it was not there in debug builds either
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16:56:36  <Bjarni> I once had such issues on OSX as well. Tunnels failed to be build. The reason was that I had added an unsafe optimisation flag in the makefile by accident
16:57:06  <Bjarni> after I removed it, the problem went away until somebody decided to readd it :p
16:57:23  <Bjarni> then I removed it again and it have worked ever since
16:57:30  *** test_ [] has joined #openttd
16:57:49  <test_> hey
16:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> unsafe flag == improper code?
16:58:45  <Bjarni> maybe, but the actually warned about using that flag in the manual because weird stuff like this could happen
16:59:02  <Bjarni> KUDr: maybe the bug is in the flag settings in VS
16:59:11  <DaleStan> Unsafe flag is something like "Assume no aliasing" when there is aliasing.
16:59:35  <KUDr> I don't know any such flag that can lead to 'unsafe' optimization
17:03:34  <DaleStan> Assume no aliasing is the only one I'm aware of. It'll cause breakage when (1) an object is modified through one pointer and then accessed directly or through a different pointer, or (2) when an object is modified directly and then accessed through a pointer.
17:04:35  <KUDr> DaleStan: what flag in MSVC controls that?
17:05:07  <Patrick`> --yesimalunatic ?
17:07:25  <test_> can you tell me what's the status of the patch for the bug I reported some days ago?
17:10:17  <Patrick`> probably not
17:10:20  <Patrick`> mister ... test?
17:10:21  <DaleStan> KUDr: /Oa is "assume no aliasing", /Ow is "Assume aliasing across function calls". (MSVC 2003) Both have to be entered manually, AFAICT.
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17:10:59  <KUDr> DaleStan: thanx, will check it
17:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause> test_: the network thing? there were some commits about it, i believe...
17:12:01  <KUDr> not there
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17:13:51  <Eddi|zuHause> [02.04. 14:43] <CIA-5> peter1138 * r4241 /trunk/network_server.c: - Fix: Perform validation on the error number that a server receives from a client. An invalid value may cause the server to terminate.
17:14:07  <Eddi|zuHause> [03.04. 20:34] <CIA-5> Darkvater * r4267 /trunk/ (network.c network_client.c network_data.h network_server.c): - Fix (r4241): also validate the error number that a client receives from a server, and encapsulate this functionality into GetNetworkErrorMsg().
17:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i can tell ;)
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17:23:34  <dune> can someone help me to understand how to implement those huge airports richk67 made? ive never coded before.. ^^
17:23:47  * dune slaps Richk67 around a bit with a large trout
17:23:49  <dune> hehe
17:24:27  <dune> maybe someone have made an executable?
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17:26:59  * Kalpa gently pats dune
17:27:12  <dune> hi Kalpa :)
17:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> dune: you don't need to code
17:27:31  <dune> what do i do then :s
17:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> just use svn and apply the patch/diff file
17:27:36  <dune> <--n00b
17:27:41  <Eddi|zuHause> go to the wiki
17:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and read up on compiling the sources
17:27:49  <dune> k
17:27:53  <dune> ill try :D
17:29:44  <Belugas> Slapping Richk67 won't help, by the way, dune.
17:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> why? i always punch people in the face when i ask them to do something ;)
17:30:54  * Brianetta eats Crunchy Nut Corn Flakes with evaporated milk
17:31:29  <dune> hehe, i dont really use to care about slaps :p i use them to get peoples attension ^^
17:31:42  <Belugas> Because, in my case, it just increase the level of inerty and force me to do absolutely NOTHING for the slapper
17:32:15  <Belugas> a ping is worth much more...
17:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i tend to reach for the kick-finger then ;)
17:32:32  <dune> lol
17:33:23  <dune> this is actually the first time i see someone really care about the stupid slap-function :D
17:34:17  <Brianetta> Oh man
17:34:19  <Brianetta> dune
17:34:22  * hylje slaps dune with a large Belugas
17:34:24  <Brianetta> you need to sort your client out
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17:34:31  <Brianetta> Your version reply is breaching your privacy
17:34:37  <hylje> :o
17:34:44  <Belugas> hylje : lol
17:34:49  <dune> btw Eddi|zuHause, could you give me a direct link to that thing you explained to me. My head isnt really working atm (headache etc)
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17:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> err... no...
17:37:56  <dune> well well.. thx for the help and im sorry if anyone is "offended" by my use of slap.
17:38:01  <dune> im out of here, bye
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17:40:40  <test_> thanx for the info Eddi, do you know also when the new stable version will be released?
17:41:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no...
17:41:01  <glx> hard to say test_
17:43:05  <test_> well thanx
17:43:07  <test_> BYEZ
17:43:21  <ector>  << the new AI can sabotage for each other unintentionally ... interesting bug
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17:45:48  <blathijs> hmm, briljant
17:46:05  <blathijs> something broke my bdb SVN repos, without leaving errors
17:46:10  <blathijs> it just stopped working
17:46:20  <hylje> ector: quite small resolution you got
17:46:23  <blathijs> but svnadmin recover seems to work
17:46:30  <ector> hylje, i don't normally play like that
17:46:36  <hylje> :O
17:46:37  <ector> i just wanted to keep the screenshot focused on the bug
17:47:16  <blathijs> pretty funky: Broken subversion repos kept killing my apache webserver, since each request involving the broken repos blocked a worker process, and the GoogleBot kept trying :-)
17:48:04  <hylje> SPIDER OF DOOM!
17:48:32  <blathijs> indeed :-)
17:48:45  <blathijs> I suspected the googlebot before, but couldn't find how and why exactly
17:48:49  <blathijs> anyway, it's fixed now :-)
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17:49:19  <Bjarni> blathijs: warnings in npf...
17:49:40  <blathijs> ah, yes :-)
17:49:50  <blathijs> just needs some initializing IIRC
17:51:08  <blathijs> hmm, let's stop harvesting all kinds of data from my webserver, that'll probably help :-)
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18:14:53  <KUDr> SOLVED! (
18:16:54  *** Spoco [] has quit []
18:18:38  <ector> and the problem was?
18:19:13  <Belugas> The SOLUTION is ?
18:19:13  <ector> if it's a VS2005 bug i want to be able to work around it if it ever bites me :P
18:19:13  <KUDr> signed/unsigned add
18:19:21  <ector> oh
18:19:41  <Belugas> hehe
18:19:44  <KUDr> uint = uint + char + char
18:20:02  <KUDr> Can I check it in?
18:20:44  <ector> i would :P
18:21:18  <KUDr> will be in yapf branch soon
18:21:35  <Belugas> I would for a dev to check, KUDr.  That's what I do (most of the time)
18:21:41  <Belugas> +wait
18:22:39  <Tron> <KUDr> uint = uint + char + char <--- please be more vague, otherwise it could be possible somebody could confirm the cause of the problem
18:23:51  <ector> at what year does electric rails become available?
18:24:14  <Tron> SH30 is the first electric train
18:24:31  <KUDr> Tron: last char was sometimes negative
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18:24:40  <Tron> *sigh*
18:24:40  <KUDr> and overflowed
18:24:52  <Tron> a line number or something is too much asked for, i guess
18:25:03  <KUDr> elrail.c
18:25:04  <KUDr> 				byte temp = PPPorder[i][GetTLG(ti->tile)][k];
18:25:04  <KUDr> 				if (HASBIT(PPPbuffer[i], temp)) {
18:25:04  <KUDr> 					int x = ((int)ti->x) + x_pcp_offsets[i] + x_ppp_offsets[temp];
18:25:04  <KUDr> 					int y = ((int)ti->y) + y_pcp_offsets[i] + y_ppp_offsets[temp];
18:25:16  <Darkvater> KUDr: line :)
18:25:17  <Darkvater> eg
18:25:18  <KUDr> was missing that (int)
18:25:18  <blathijs> and still no line number ;-)
18:25:21  <Tron> slowly you're going on my nerves
18:25:23  <Darkvater> elrail.c:35423
18:25:30  <KUDr> i changed line numbering
18:25:35  <KUDr> by other fixes
18:25:39  <Darkvater> he :P
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18:25:47  <KUDr> ca 264
18:25:55  <blathijs> Darkvater: I hope that was a typo?
18:26:01  <blathijs> or is elrail really 35K lines?
18:26:02  <blathijs> ;-)
18:26:04  <Tron> thank you very much *shakes head*
18:26:05  <Darkvater> overflow ^
18:26:12  <blathijs> heh
18:26:41  <Darkvater> anyone know how I can exclude directories within the ant build-system?
18:26:46  <Darkvater> (java)
18:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> ector: whenever the first electric engine is available... the DBSetXL has them from 1920
18:27:19  <ector> ok ok
18:27:53  <ector> Darkvater, dunno if you saw this:   << that's two AI:s ... look at what it did to the slope
18:28:02  <Darkvater> looks funky
18:28:03  <ector> new AI
18:28:55  <Vornicus> o.O
18:28:59  <ector> i'm not sure which of the AI:s is at fault, who built the road first... if the red one failed to build a square or if the green one overwrote
18:29:19  <ector> in any case it looks like a bug :)
18:30:15  <ector> also the AI:s tend to choose the same industries to connect, or maybe it's just bad luck :P
18:30:28  <guru3> cause they all think the same perhaps?
18:30:50  <Darkvater> you needa contact TrueLight for the newai, but I don't think it's developed any more
18:30:55  <ector> ok
18:31:07  <Darkvater> he's moved over to GPMI wholly
18:31:24  <ector> hm, was that the ai plugin interface thingy?
18:32:01  <ector> ah, a script language interface
18:32:56  <Darkvater> yes
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18:35:08  <KUDr> Celestar:
18:38:21  *** tank__ is now known as tank
18:39:06  <Belugas> KUDr, line 38 of your diff : a tab has been added after } else {
18:39:40  <Tron> CHAR? WTF?!
18:39:55  <KUDr> ohh, mistake happened
18:40:07  <Tron> it's platform dependent if char is signed or unsigned
18:42:24  * Vornicus wonders which platforms make it signed, and which make it unsigned.
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18:46:16  <Tron> btw: the () next to the cast are superflous, casts have the 2nd highest priority in the operator hierachy
18:47:02  <KUDr> Tron: right, but it should be there as it is more clear to everybody
18:47:36  <Darkvater> gn all
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18:47:42  <KUDr> gn
18:47:43  <Tron> i think it's confusing, () always tell me "something special is going on" and then i'm looking and after some time i realise that nothing happens
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18:48:40  <Tron> except for << and >> the C operator hierachy is very sane and usually does The Right Thing(tm)
18:49:16  <Richk67> very ANDy that ;)
18:50:24  <Patrick`> shit!
18:50:36  <Patrick`> magic bulldozer means that building train lines will flatten anything
18:50:41  <Patrick`> I clipped one corner of a forest
18:50:42  <Patrick`> and bam
18:51:07  <KUDr> hmm
18:51:20  <Tron> +static const signed char
18:51:25  <Tron> we have int8 for that
18:51:55  <Patrick`> aand I got bored
18:51:58  <KUDr> i know, but for Celestar it could be more clear what was missing
18:52:52  <Tron> i'm not sure i understand what you're trying to tell me
18:53:23  <KUDr> if 'signed' is added, it is clear, why i chanded it
18:53:52  <KUDr> otherwise he can see it as cosmetic change
18:54:06  <Tron> the change is not acceptable this way (even the original code wasn't)
18:54:12  <Belugas> If int8 is replaced, it would be even more evident, no?
18:54:47  <KUDr> lot of people thinks that int8 == char
18:55:00  <Maedhros> out of interest, why change it from unsigned (and undefined) to signed? i'm not entirely sure what it's doing, but i'd guess x and y are co-ordinates and therefore always positive?
18:55:01  <KUDr> so it is not
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18:55:29  <ector> Patrick`, with magic bulldozer, cities will eat your industries when they expand
18:55:53  <Patrick`> ector: it's ok, I got jaded and disillusioned anyway
18:56:00  <Patrick`> I'm going to take another break from ottd
18:56:03  <Richk67> int8 == -128..127, char/byte==0.255  ??
18:56:05  <ector> ok, good. :P
18:56:06  <Patrick`> I don't have the time to invest currently
18:56:25  <Tron> char/byte==0.255  ?? <--- no
18:56:31  <KUDr> Maedhros: 20 + (-1) could be 19 or 275
18:56:51  <Richk67> 0..255
18:57:12  <Tron> Maedhros: don't assume, read the code, some items in the array are negative
18:57:19  <Tron> <Richk67> 0..255 <-- no
18:57:31  <Tron> as i just told: it's platform dependent if char is signed or unsigned
18:57:44  <KUDr> agree
18:57:46  <Maedhros> Tron: fair enough
18:57:51  <ector> it's a compiler switch in vc
18:57:57  <Richk67> apologies for not reading the text that was typed before i arrived
18:58:10  <Richk67> :P
18:58:20  <Tron> ector: it's a switch on most compilers, but it defaults to one or the other depeding on architecture
18:58:44  <Richk67> okies - makes sense... forgot there are weird machines out there ;)
18:59:10  <Tron> if you want to call the POWER architecture weird...
19:00:03  <Tron> that's a platform on which char is unsigned
19:00:24  <Richk67> ZX - Spectrum too ;)
19:01:20  <Richk67> Celestar ping :)
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19:08:46  <Richk67> tron: i have a question... if i have code with a patch that sets a config patches var as "saved", it seems I can no longer load the opentitle.dat game... it bombs with the classic "SIGetoffs != ...." error.... is this right?
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19:12:44  <Darkvater> peter1138: got something juicy for ya :)
19:12:57  <Darkvater> peter1138:
19:13:18  <Darkvater> donnu if it's newgrf err or openttd err
19:13:22  <Darkvater> bleh
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19:13:31  <Tron> KUDr: given that char is signed on x86 then according to § (conversion of negative values into unsigned types) and § (modulo reduction of unsigned types) it's a bug in the MS C compiler
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19:14:02  <black_Nightmare> hey
19:15:07  <Tron> Richk67: is the new patch setting depedent on the savegame version?
19:15:43  <Richk67> actually it may be worse than that - i just commented out the only change in settings.c, and it still bombed
19:15:47  <black_Nightmare> if there's one thing I would like if possible .....
19:15:54  <Richk67> im just checking a fresh compile
19:15:54  <KUDr> Tron: if project has not set: Default Char Unsigned = Yes
19:16:02  <black_Nightmare> could network maps not alter your own settings?  (like its on its own seperate settings)
19:16:09  <KUDr> Which is set
19:16:24  <black_Nightmare> I sometimes am a bit tired of a no-plane map (set to zero) then going back to trying make my own map that I want to use many planes on
19:16:25  <black_Nightmare> etc
19:16:31  <Tron> then just change the char to int8 and check if the problem is gone
19:16:38  <Tron> (who set that to unsigned?!)
19:16:54  <KUDr> heh
19:17:20  <Tron> the C standard says it has to be gone
19:18:03  <Tron> and the next question: why was there no warning that an unsigned type is initisalised with signed data
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19:18:51  <KUDr> Tron: yes, it is gone
19:19:14  <Tron> good, than slap Celestar for using char
19:19:25  <Tron> and please check if there's more stuff like that
19:19:43  <KUDr> but still I think it should not mix signed and unsigned values in one expression
19:21:13  <Tron> the C standard says that exactly that happens what you expect to happen - it just says it in a very complicated way
19:21:36  <KUDr> Tron: it is about style
19:21:41  <KUDr> not about standard
19:21:49  <KUDr> it must be readable
19:22:01  <Tron> style for me is to use as few useless casts as possible
19:22:05  <peter1138> evening
19:22:10  <KUDr> not that I must stury standard on each line
19:22:12  <Tron> because every useless casts is a potential bug
19:22:44  <Tron> and the cast to (int) really buys me nothing in terms of readability
19:22:54  <KUDr> if it improves readability and code is more clear, it is not useless
19:23:09  <Tron> i'm perfectly fine with adding a small signed offset to an unsigned value
19:23:11  <KUDr> then all comments would be useless too
19:23:17  <Tron> i guess you do that more often than you thing
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19:23:23  <Tron> s/thing/think/
19:23:38  <KUDr> if i do it then as a mistake only
19:23:56  <Tron> <KUDr> if it improves readability and code is more clear, it is not useless <--- a i just said i think it reduces readability
19:24:07  <Tron> <KUDr> then all comments would be useless too <--- i haven't said or implied this
19:24:19  <Celestar> Richk67: pong
19:24:32  <Tron> <KUDr> if i do it then as a mistake only <--- size_t, ssize_t, just an example
19:24:55  <Tron> offset_t
19:24:59  <Tron> ptrdiff_t
19:25:13  <KUDr> Tron: don't take it personally, but it is not good style to write code which you can understand only with manual at hand
19:25:16  <Tron> i guess you never cast when you use one of them
19:25:40  * Vornicus points out that he has never seen casting done without parentheses.
19:25:59  <Tron> KUDr: don't take it personally but casting to int suggests that the result could be negative which is simply untrue
19:26:10  <KUDr> I think i cast them or use proper types
19:26:14  <Richk67> celestar: hi... did you see ive now completed the 3 new airports, so the patch is now 6 airports?
19:26:22  <Tron> Vornicus: those are just types, not casts
19:26:24  <KUDr> the mistake is that x and y is uint
19:26:26  <Celestar> Richk67: no I didn't.
19:26:39  <Celestar> Richk67: will check later. I've been rather busy recently :(
19:26:55  <Celestar> stupid stupid work
19:27:11  <Richk67> Celestar: link -   for perusal at your leisure ;)
19:27:17  <Vornicus> wait.  you've got somethng like unsigned int foo and you're using (unsigned int) foo?
19:27:24  <Celestar> Richk67: will
19:29:49  <Celestar> I need opinions of what to do with buoy. the current implementation is giving me the creeps.
19:30:09  <KUDr> [21:28:01] <Tron> KUDr: don't take it personally but casting to int suggests that the result could be negative which is simply untrue <-- bad suggestion - it suggest that it should be signed operation
19:30:21  <Celestar> Suggestion: Move the buoy information into water tiles and the handling code into waypoints.
19:30:25  <Celestar> RFC.
19:30:40  <Tron> KUDr: no, it's not
19:30:47  <KUDr> if all operands are signed then it is clear without reading books
19:30:52  <Tron> it just adds a small offset to an unsigned value
19:31:02  <ector> can't you just upcast the small offsets to whole ints and be done with it?
19:31:39  <Tron> ector: that's not the problem, the problem was the small offset was accidently declared with an unsigned type, but initialised with signed data
19:31:50  <ector> oh aha
19:32:06  * Vornicus tries to follow the consequences of Celestar's thingum
19:32:10  <Celestar> what are we discussing=
19:32:17  <Celestar> something I did?
19:32:18  <peter1138> so is it fixed yet?
19:32:27  <peter1138> or are you just arguing about casting ;p
19:32:33  <Tron> Celestar: yes
19:32:42  <Tron> Celestar: _NEVER_ use char except for strings
19:32:46  <Celestar> ok what did I fxck up?
19:32:56  <KUDr> Celestar:
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19:33:13  <Tron> it's platform dependent if char is signed or unsigned
19:33:20  <Celestar> yuck
19:33:30  <peter1138> must've been a late night :)
19:33:49  <Tron> Celestar: just change the chars in table/elrail.h to int8
19:34:54  <Richk67> gotta go... see yas later
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19:35:08  <Celestar> Tron: I didn't really know that chars CAN be unsigned?
19:35:10  * peter1138 looks at the problem DV pointed him to
19:36:22  <Celestar> Tron: it also seems to depends on optimization settings on Windows :P
19:36:43  <peter1138> still, use int8 / uint8 / byte / whatever, i guess
19:36:45  <Tron> no, it's a compiler flag
19:36:54  <Tron> gcc has a similar flag
19:37:00  <Tron> char is signed on x86
19:37:11  <KUDr> Celestar: there is defined char to be unsigned in project settings (for Release build). Dunno why
19:37:18  <Tron> but somebody set the flag for unsigned chars in the project file
19:37:31  <Celestar> ok KUDr 1) why the != in the isflat computation.
19:37:39  <Celestar> 2) reasons for the cast?
19:37:53  <Tron> Celestar: just change the chars to int8
19:38:22  <Celestar> Tron: does that WORK on windows?
19:38:26  <KUDr> Celestar: we had here long discussion with Tron about that
19:38:38  <Celestar> KUDr: and I cannot see you agreeing?
19:38:57  <Tron> Celestar: int8 is defined as signed char
19:39:15  <KUDr> Celestar: we didn't agree
19:39:19  <Tron> Celestar: the problem was that you initialise the (unsigned) char array with signed values
19:39:32  <KUDr> we read the same code differently
19:39:34  <Celestar> Tron: yes I learned that meanwhile.
19:39:44  <Celestar> but what are you disagreeing about?
19:39:52  <Tron> KUDr: instead of disagreeing rather tell my why there is no warning that the unsigned arrays is initialised with signed data
19:40:13  <Tron> Celestar: nothing, just fix the problem
19:40:14  <peter1138> hmmm
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19:40:36  <KUDr> Tron: I don't know. Is it not suppressed by #pragma?
19:40:56  <KUDr> Tron: on GCC there is such warning?
19:40:58  <peter1138> newhq.grf
19:41:02  <peter1138> is it me, or is it b0rked
19:41:07  <Tron> yes, there is, i've seen it
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19:41:37  <Tron> though it doesn't warn on other occasions...
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19:41:44  <Tron> there is really no compiler with sensible warnings
19:41:56  <Celestar> Tron: it doesn't warn in this case?
19:42:10  <Tron> icc spits out so many warnings, it's totally useless
19:42:12  * peter1138 pokes Born_Acorn
19:42:18  <peter1138> heh
19:42:21  <Tron> Celestar: who doesn't warn in what case?
19:42:37  <Celestar> Tron: it only spits out many warnings because of enum mismatches.
19:42:49  <Celestar> Tron: gcc doesn't if I do "unsigned char" in the elrail_data.h
19:42:50  <Tron> Celestar: not only that
19:43:00  <Celestar> Tron: which others?
19:43:20  <Tron> Celestar: casting the result of a comparison to char
19:43:31  <Tron> it could lose "significant bits"
19:43:50  <Tron> yeah, sure, you can lose something from a result which is either 0 or 1
19:44:00  <Celestar> Tron: that's not a warning, I think its a "remark"
19:44:14  <Celestar> pointless nevertheless:P
19:44:16  <Tron> is there a data type with 0 bits width and therefore couldn't store a signle bit?
19:44:26  <KUDr> # pragma warning(disable: 4244)  // 'conversion' conversion from 'type1' to 'type2', possible loss of data
19:44:26  <KUDr> # pragma warning(disable: 4761)  // integral size mismatch in argument : conversion supplied
19:44:27  <Tron> Celestar: pointless several hundred times
19:44:34  <KUDr> stdafx.h
19:44:40  <Celestar> bah
19:44:46  <Celestar> stdafx.h is utter crap
19:46:06  <KUDr> but it is not the reason
19:46:21  <CIA-5> celestar * r4278 /trunk/table/elrail_data.h: -Fix: changed char to uint8 because signedness of char is undefined. Thanks to KUDr and Tron for research and stuff. (FS#98)
19:46:29  <Celestar> that ok now?
19:47:36  <KUDr> Celestar: it also fixed your drawing bug :)
19:47:37  <Celestar> icc "remarks" also that you lose bits when your have byte foo69(int a) {return a & 0xF;}
19:47:44  <peter1138> mr Born_Acorn
19:48:22  <Tron> Celestar: the *ehem* remark isn't bad per se, but it's totally useless without range value propagation
19:48:44  <Celestar> Tron: yes.
19:48:56  <Tron> Celestar: and the best part: if you cast it to get rid of the remark, then it remarks that you could lose bits by the cast
19:49:01  <peter1138> so how are you supposed to convert from int to byte with icc?
19:49:04  <Celestar> Tron: I know :)
19:49:09  <Tron> peter1138: not at all
19:49:20  <Celestar> peter1138: switch off remarks :)
19:49:20  <peter1138> o_O
19:49:29  <Celestar> peter1138: maybe there is some way?
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19:49:49  * Celestar goes digging
19:49:55  <Tron> question: does it remark char f(char a, char b) { return a + b; } ?
19:50:02  <Celestar> Tron: trying
19:50:02  <Tron> technically it should...
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19:50:24  <Tron> a and b get promoted to int for the addition
19:50:30  <Tron> so the result of the + is int
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19:52:08  <Celestar> Tron: ?!
19:52:13  <Celestar> have a look
19:52:20  <Tron> hm?
19:52:49  <Celestar>
19:53:00  <Celestar> others, too if interested in compilers
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19:53:17  <KUDr> Tron: warning C4245: 'initializing' : conversion from 'int' to 'const unsigned char', signed/unsigned mismatch
19:53:24  <Tron> Celestar: as i predicted
19:53:30  <Celestar> Tron: not fully
19:53:37  <Celestar> (char)(a & 0xFF) doesn't warn
19:53:38  <Tron> Celestar: what?
19:54:07  <Tron> hm, i've seen that remark
19:54:20  <Tron> which version of icc?
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19:55:00  <black_Nightmare> brb
19:55:06  <Celestar> vici@galadriel:[/home/vici/tmp]> /opt/intel/cce/9.0/bin/icc -dumpversion
19:55:06  <Celestar> 9.0
19:55:23  <Celestar> Tron: so actually the remarks are not TOO stupid.
19:55:28  <Tron> hm, maybe they switched that remark of because too many complained
19:55:40  <Celestar> only the a & 0xFF is a bit stoopid imho
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19:56:33  <Celestar> Tron: but I really like some other commands :)
19:56:48  <Celestar> remarks
19:56:52  <Celestar> not commands :)
19:58:32  <KUDr> Tron: warning C4245: 'initializing' : conversion from 'int' to 'const unsigned char', signed/unsigned mismatch <-- needs only to be enabled
20:01:50  <Celestar> ok
20:01:59  <Celestar> any comments on buoys?
20:02:08  <Sacro> they should float
20:02:17  <peter1138> hmm
20:02:29  <peter1138> fio doesn't protect against reading past the end of files o_O
20:02:41  <hylje> potential sploit+
20:03:19  <Tron> Celestar: leave them as they are, there is more important stuff than this change which could cause nothing but problems
20:03:27  <Celestar> Tron: not today.
20:03:31  <Celestar> but on the long run.
20:03:33  <Tron> and without any sensible pathfinder ships are useless anyway
20:03:45  <Celestar> Tron: what is this "more important stuff"
20:03:47  <Celestar> oh yes.
20:04:02  <Celestar> I recommend moving the chunk handlers for map to map.c as well as the debug output...
20:04:40  <hylje> chuck handler!
20:05:59  <Celestar> objections?
20:06:30  <Celestar> Tron: are you planning to get rid of FindLandscapeHeight COMPLETELY?
20:06:58  <Tron> yes, no, maybe
20:07:04  <Celestar> or
20:07:10  <Tron> oh, and thanks for the conflicts in CmdBuildRoad()
20:07:17  <Celestar> sworry (=
20:07:41  <Celestar> only FindLandscapeHeight should have a better name ...
20:07:51  *** mode/#openttd [+o MiHaMiX] by ChanServ
20:08:05  <Celestar> ok I'll move the stuff around.
20:08:11  <Tron> the map5 in TileInfo shouldn't be there
20:08:20  <Tron> the type attribute is almost obsolete
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20:08:25  <Tron> which stuff?
20:08:40  <Celestar> map chunk handlers.
20:08:42  <Tron> and then there isn't too much left anymore in TileInfo
20:08:58  <Celestar> just move the code, no change to it.
20:09:02  *** e1ko [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:09:21  <Celestar> and ti->tileh is not of much use either ....
20:10:01  <Celestar> Tron to prevent any further conflicts: we mainly have work in industry_cmd and rail_cmd left. who will clean these files?
20:10:03  <peter1138> having ti->tile and tile variables around can cause fun :)
20:10:54  <MiHaMiX> is Darkvater around?
20:11:22  <Tron> Celestar: i'm still not done with roads, somebody caused quite some conflicts, if you remember. And i don't have very much time to work at it
20:12:32  <Celestar> Tron: I can take care of the two others.
20:12:38  <Celestar> hm.
20:12:52  <Celestar> x and y coordinates are used in TileInfo.
20:13:00  <Tron> at least it want to see it before you take care
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20:13:24  <Celestar> possibly FindLandscapeHeight might want to be called GetTileInfo ?
20:13:32  <Celestar> Tron: syntax error
20:14:17  <Tron> ?
20:14:26  <Celestar> < Tron> at least it want to see it before you take care
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20:16:04  <peter1138> bah
20:16:15  <peter1138> so i make fios check for read past end of file
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20:16:28  <peter1138> but that breaks a missing :/
20:16:51  <Tron> missing was always broken
20:16:59  <Tron> or do you mean empty
20:17:03  <peter1138> sorry, empty, yes.
20:17:47  <Tron> well, it's a partly unintentional feature that an empty works
20:17:56  <black_Nightmare> back
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20:21:08  <KUDr> [21:41:53] <Tron> KUDr: instead of disagreeing rather tell my why there is no warning that the unsigned arrays is initialised with signed data <-- if you enable that warning, there are 224 of them
20:21:49  <Celestar> KUDr: paste them somewhere.
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20:25:13  <KUDr> Celestar:
20:25:20  *** tokai [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20:25:22  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
20:25:48  <Celestar> KUDr: it prompts me for un/passwd
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20:26:21  <KUDr> Celestar: and now?
20:27:57  <Celestar> wait
20:28:07  <Celestar> works
20:28:12  <KUDr> k
20:29:18  <Celestar> KUDr: these warnings are VERY VERY stupid
20:29:32  <KUDr> :)
20:29:46  <KUDr> not always
20:29:49  <Celestar> most of them
20:31:10  <SimonRC> I have a radical idea, which I am totally not suited to implement.
20:31:56  <SimonRC> It might be good to do more Copy-On-Write type coding, to speed up autosaves.
20:32:20  <SimonRC> Ther is a noticeable pause late in the game on large maps.
20:32:41  <Sacro> yeah, thats true
20:32:42  <SimonRC> I have a feeling this is rather impractical without languae support, though.
20:32:58  <SimonRC> *cough* Haskell *cough*
20:33:01  <SimonRC> :-)
20:33:50  <Celestar> ?
20:34:45  <Tron> on *nix the solution is rather simple: fork() and save in the child. copy on write for free!
20:38:44  <Celestar> well
20:38:54  <Celestar> *nix is a multitasking OS :)
20:38:59  <Celestar> Win* is not :)
20:40:40  <Celestar> \o/ FAB36 is finally in service
20:41:05  <Sacro> FAB36?
20:41:29  <Celestar> AMD's new plant
20:41:42  <Celestar> capable of producing about 100 million CPUs a year
20:41:57  <Celestar> or in CPU-maker terms 20.000 WSPM
20:43:16  <hylje> but amd is behind intel in technology generations
20:43:21  <hylje> 65nm :x
20:43:51  <Celestar> well
20:44:00  <Celestar> FAB36 is already spitting out 65nm samples.
20:44:06  <hylje> wow
20:44:14  <hylje> thats good
20:44:17  <Celestar> supposedly revenue production will ramp up in 2nd Half 2006
20:44:20  <Celestar> which is good.
20:44:44  <Celestar> because until Conroe is launched, Intel has nothing to be competitive anyway, apart from the Core Duo
20:45:02  <hylje> laptops
20:45:11  <Celestar> Core Duo .. that's what I meant
20:45:32  <Celestar> but their entire desktop/workstation/server portfolio sucks. From the Celeron to the Itanium 2
20:45:41  <hylje> indeed
20:45:59  <hylje> current opteron beats the shit from pre-release intel protoypes
20:46:12  <hylje> +out, t
20:46:26  <Celestar> each of these products is either grossly underperforming or grossly heat-producing
20:46:36  <Celestar> 135W TDP for server processors :o
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20:47:57  <hylje> well, lets see what intel does in the near future
20:48:09  <Celestar> good stuff from preliminary performance data.
20:48:43  <Celestar> I guess that with Conroe, Intel will have some lead over AMD until AMD switches 65nm.
20:48:55  <Celestar> or the K8L core is a whole lot better than K8
20:49:22  <hylje> knowing amd, it could be quite good
20:49:54  <Celestar> well
20:50:12  <Celestar> the part I know is that FPU performance is going to be improved quite a bit.
20:50:22  <Celestar> not sure about Integer performance
20:50:44  <Celestar> but AMD would do good getting about 5-10% more performance outta the core
20:51:13  <hylje> currently flops are more important?
20:51:28  <Celestar> not really.
20:51:34  <Celestar> not in real-world applications.
20:51:40  <Celestar> for me, I only care about flops.
20:52:15  <Celestar> I'm rather amazed how very insensitive K8 is towards cache sizes
20:52:25  <Celestar> (apart from games)
20:53:08  <Celestar> I dunno if most codecs are more FPU or more Int sensitive
20:54:00  <Matt-W> peter1138: I've just got back from a conference
20:54:23  <Celestar> lets see how AMD performs on DDR2-800
20:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i would assume that codecs use ints...
20:54:33  <Matt-W> depends
20:54:58  <Matt-W> standard MP3 stuff seems to use floating-point
20:55:02  <Celestar> not sure.
20:55:03  <Matt-W> for example
20:55:10  <Celestar> my audio editor is floating-point
20:55:21  <Matt-W> but you can get pure-integer MP3 decoders too
20:55:40  <ector> most video codecs use almost exclusively MMX, or integer SSE if available, anyway
20:55:46  <Eddi|zuHause> in our picture/movie compression lesson everything was based on ints
20:55:51  <Matt-W> mmm only sensible
20:56:11  <Celestar> I wish x86 would get REAL vector units one day :S
20:56:13  <Matt-W> I think you can do it either way
20:56:18  <Matt-W> but if you have an FPU you can do it faster
20:56:25  <Matt-W> although my understanding of these things is quite vague
20:56:35  <Celestar> considering the vector lengths of our Hitachi
20:56:51  <Celestar> registers are 16 KILObits in length
20:57:09  <hylje> vector-oriented programming!
20:57:13  <Celestar> yay :)
20:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like fun ;)
20:57:43  <Celestar> .oO(that thing has more storage space in the REGISTERS than my first computer had in RAM. let alone cache)
20:58:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you are really old man then ;)
20:58:22  <Celestar> nope
20:58:30  <Celestar> I just had a computer when I was very young :P
20:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (computer-wise)
20:58:57  <Celestar> hylje: but Intel is already making 45nm samples.
20:59:09  <hylje> :o
20:59:11  <hylje> nice
20:59:24  <hylje> i wonder how far the accuracy can go
20:59:32  <Celestar> well..
21:00:00  <Celestar> Intel expects to have 32nm samples mid-2007 and 22nm end-2008.
21:00:29  <Celestar> considering the time it takes for such a process to mature, one would say development on 32nm has already begun
21:00:59  <Celestar> hylje: how far down? dunno.
21:01:03  <hylje> at least it is faster than developing a commercial plane
21:01:11  <Celestar> hylje: I know. been there.
21:01:23  <Celestar> we went broke.
21:01:46  <Eddi|zuHause> they might need to stop at a couple of Å probably ;)
21:02:05  <Celestar> 45nm, 32nm, 22nm, 16nm then things will get ugly
21:02:13  <Celestar> quantum effects and crap
21:02:30  <Eddi|zuHause> 1Å = 0,1nm
21:02:45  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: one Si Atom has > 0.1nm diameter.
21:02:58  <Celestar> and one might think you need at least 3 of them to form a transistor :P
21:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah ;)
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21:03:32  <Celestar> my first CPU has 40 pins and like 10000 transistors :P
21:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> "has" ;(
21:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> ;)
21:03:54  <Celestar> it still is somewhere :P
21:04:11  <hylje> only 10k
21:04:25  <Tron> the sign for Ångstrom is Å
21:04:34  <Celestar> Tron: not in UTF-8
21:04:46  <hylje> äää
21:04:47  <Tron> Ångström even
21:04:49  <hylje> oops
21:04:51  <hylje> ååå
21:04:52  <Tron> Celestar: that wasn't UTF8
21:05:41  <Celestar> dunno
21:05:45  <Celestar> can't read it anyway :P
21:06:02  <Eddi|zuHause> mine should have been UTF-8
21:06:28  <Celestar> I can read yours :)
21:07:04  <Celestar> wow .
21:07:16  <Celestar> the Intel 4004 had 2300 transistors
21:07:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that was a 4-bit processor?
21:07:46  <Celestar> yes
21:08:28  <glx> it was the first in space
21:09:12  <Celestar> and had 10 microns circut size
21:09:37  <Celestar> then intel went to 6 microns for the 8080
21:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so we are factor 100 smaller now?
21:10:31  <Celestar> about yes.
21:11:23  <Celestar> today, and Intel 4004 costs about as much as an Athlon X2 4800+
21:12:03  <Celestar> and had 16 pins.
21:12:08  <Celestar> socket F has 1207 pins
21:13:40  <Celestar> it used around 0.05 A, while then Pentium XE is somewhere about 100A
21:13:56  <hylje> :o
21:14:42  <Celestar> 100 Apms, I wonder how much of the power is lost in the transmission TO the cpu :P
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21:17:22  <Celestar> <= HAHAHA
21:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> rofl ;)
21:23:29  <Sacro> is it sad that i read it when it was in the queue :(
21:24:06  <Eddi|zuHause> probably ;)
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21:25:35  <Sacro> i need to make my life more interesting
21:25:44  <Celestar> so that you can get un QDB?
21:26:12  * Sacro checks the queue for the 5th time tonight
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21:35:17  <CIA-5> tron * r4279 /trunk/ (7 files): s/\<CL_/CLEAR_/
21:39:08  <MiHaMiX> aaauch, it hurts
21:39:20  <MiHaMiX> it closed down my browser :(
21:39:54  <SpComb> hmm?
21:40:27  <MiHaMiX> SpComb: firebug (it's a firefox extension) probably has a bug
21:41:16  <SpComb> hah
21:43:05  <MiHaMiX> Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE) [nsIOnReadyStateChangeHandler.handleEvent]" nsresult: "0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE)" location: "JS frame :: chrome://firebug/content/firebug.js :: anonymous :: line 612" data: no]
21:45:59  * peter1138 > sleep
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22:11:51  <Born_Acorn> mr peter1138.
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22:19:50  <CC`2|denver> hi you there ;)
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23:27:36  <Richk67> hi guys
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23:37:36  <Vornicus> hi rich
23:38:17  <Richk67> hi vornicus... gone quiet tonite...
23:38:26  <Vornicus> yes.
23:39:12  <Richk67> serves me right for going to the cinema i guess ;)
23:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> what did you watch?
23:45:47  <Richk67> v for vendetta :) very good
23:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that film is genious ;)
23:46:26  <Richk67> good fireworks too - i work with fireworks companies, and they were good ;)
23:47:14  * Vornicus eyes the run of svn update.
23:47:19  <Richk67> hugo weaving and natalie portman were both very good
23:47:32  <Vornicus> UU   os_timer.c <---- usually it just says "U" once.
23:47:44  <Kjetil> UberUpdate
23:47:48  <Richk67> devs have been busy boys ;)   lots of changes recently in lots of files
23:48:04  <Vornicus> yes.
23:48:32  <Richk67> just need a few changes to airports.c, and maybe landscape.c ;)
23:48:42  <glx> Vornicus: first U is for file updated, second is for properties updated
23:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> bah... conflict
23:49:33  <Vornicus> glx: ah
23:49:37  <Richk67> i had one of those... i took it outside and ...  dealt with it ;)

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