Log for #openttd on 8th April 2006:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:41  *** CobraA2 [] has joined #openttd
00:06:18  *** CobraA2 [] has left #openttd []
00:10:55  *** ^Cartman^ [] has quit ["Que?"]
00:23:45  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
00:26:15  *** x87 [n=x87@tor/session/x-270918044415f333] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
00:41:25  *** verl [] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
00:51:08  *** ThePizzaKing [] has quit ["Don't worry, I'll be back tomorrow to annoy you then :)"]
00:53:28  *** Richk67 [n=RichK67@] has quit []
01:07:38  <CIA-5> belugas * r4318 /trunk/ai/default/default.c: CodeChange : Remove last direct map access on ai/default/default.c
01:19:42  *** Tobin [] has joined #openttd
01:29:30  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
01:39:10  *** ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
01:40:58  *** BJH__ [] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.12/20050915]"]
01:42:46  *** Schamane_ [] has quit ["Ciao"]
01:48:42  *** Eddi|zuHause2 [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... occasionally, my trains get 0hp, but i could not yet isolate, why...
02:27:54  *** coppercore [] has joined #openttd
02:31:55  *** glx [] has quit ["Bye!"]
02:35:15  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has quit ["Leaving"]
03:58:37  *** dp__ [] has joined #openttd
04:05:13  *** JTanczos [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
04:13:11  *** dp-- [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
04:13:12  *** dp__ is now known as dp--
04:23:29  *** DaleStan [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
04:31:19  *** DaleStan [] has joined #openttd
04:45:29  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has joined #openttd
04:55:12  *** DaleStan [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
04:55:55  *** DaleStan [] has joined #openttd
05:06:22  *** ThePizzaKing [] has quit ["Don't worry, I'll be back tomorrow to annoy you then :)"]
05:06:53  *** DaleStan_ [] has joined #openttd
05:06:58  *** DaleStan [] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
05:10:08  *** ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
05:20:05  *** DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan
05:24:33  <CIA-5> celestar * r4319 /trunk/ (station_cmd.c station_map.h): -Codechange: Station map accessors
05:42:20  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
05:44:42  <CIA-5> celestar * r4320 /trunk/station_cmd.c: -Fix/Codechange: rs->num_vehicles is no longer saved or loaded, but computed on the fly. Partly fixes FS#101
06:26:38  *** TSC [] has joined #openttd
06:42:34  *** Tron_ [] has joined #openttd
06:45:16  *** Osai [] has quit []
06:47:01  <peter1138> morning
06:51:47  <Tron_> morning peter1138, do you have a savegame with many road vehicles?
06:51:57  *** Tron [] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
06:51:58  *** Tron_ is now known as Tron
06:55:46  <CIA-5> tron * r4321 /trunk/ship_cmd.c: For ships check the ship state, not the road state. This bug was harmless, because both states are at the same byte in the vehicle type specific union.
06:57:40  <peter1138> yes
06:57:44  <peter1138> but it uses newgrf
06:58:32  <peter1138> hmm, wonder where it is
07:02:09  * peter1138 recompiles
07:02:17  <peter1138> bah, it's building lang files, never a good sign
07:02:29  * peter1138 ponders making a cup of tea while waiting
07:07:25  <Tron> this was probably me, i removed a string
07:08:16  <Tron> i reduced ShowChatWindow from 6 bogus and/or wrong parameters to 0
07:08:24  <peter1138> ah :)
07:11:18  *** x87 [i=id@tor/session/x-6d726f25bed7002a] has joined #openttd
07:15:21  *** shintah [] has joined #openttd
07:30:25  *** DarkSSH [] has joined #openttd
07:30:26  *** mode/#openttd [+o DarkSSH] by ChanServ
07:30:33  <DarkSSH> how does r4320 fix the multistop bug?
07:32:56  <Tron> does it say it does?
07:33:15  <DarkSSH> yes
07:33:40  <DarkSSH> -Fix/Codechange: rs->num_vehicles is no longer saved or loaded, but computed on the fly. Partly fixes FS#101
07:33:52  <DarkSSH> ok, partly, but I don't get why
07:34:04  <Tron> i think "partly" is just another word for "doesn't"
07:34:30  <DarkSSH> hmm
07:34:32  <DarkSSH> Now recalculating the number of vehicles. This doesn't find the source of this problem but I really have no explanation why this happens.
07:34:35  <DarkSSH> ingame, we have place where the number of vehicles is decremented, and this is also the only place where u.road.slot is set to NULL. This smells like a buffer overflow to me somewhere :(
07:34:45  <DarkSSH> yes, definitewly a doen't
07:34:55  <Tron> i don't think it's a buffer overflow
07:35:03  <DarkSSH> kinda useless commit
07:35:06  <Tron> there's no array anywhere close
07:36:19  <Tron> there's no savegames which presents the problem
07:36:47  <Tron> therefore i have no way to test if that bug exists
07:37:11  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has joined #openttd
07:38:16  <DarkSSH>
07:38:38  <jnmbk> Devs, I just realised a missing thing in settings.c line 1156 danish town names are not added
07:38:44  <Tron> thanks, mister Fischer, for the missing url
07:39:04  *** Maedhros [n=jc@gentoo/developer/Maedhros] has joined #openttd
07:40:24  <DarkSSH> good thing we didn't add the rewritten 'fixed' multistop to 0.4.6/7.
07:41:12  <Tron> i'm for a rollback to before all these changes
07:41:31  <Vornicus> Multistop works for me.
07:43:06  <Tron> i don't really care if it seems to work for you
07:43:30  <Vornicus> It didn't before; everything would just completely stop.
07:43:55  <peter1138> so what doesn't work at the moment?
07:44:10  <DarkSSH> Vornicus: if it doesn't work for some people; eg crash then it doesn't work
07:44:42  <DarkSSH> fucking weather, it's raining :(
07:44:45  <DarkSSH> STOP IT ALREADY
07:44:46  <DarkSSH> jezus
07:44:47  <Noldo> Vornicus: did you try that savegame?
07:45:12  <jnmbk> did anybody see what I wrote :)
07:45:34  <peter1138> the savegame in that report doesn't crash
07:45:35  <DarkSSH> jnmbk: *shocking* :)
07:45:44  <peter1138> at least not on Dec 19th
07:45:49  <DarkSSH> peter1138: do pre-4320
07:46:29  <DarkSSH> Celestar just hacked it, with some workaround so it doesn't happen there. The problem however has not been solved
07:46:37  <peter1138> right
07:47:01  * Tron doesn't see a single cloud at the sky
07:47:06  <Tron> (in the sky?)
07:47:09  <DarkSSH> grr
07:47:11  <DarkSSH> in the sky
07:47:31  <Tron> prepositions in english are even more inconsistent than in german
07:47:34  <Vornicus> "game load failed" probably because of the age of my binary.  one moment whilst I make.
07:48:06  *** Angst [] has joined #openttd
07:48:07  <peter1138> DarkSSH: i see
07:48:10  <Tron> DarkSSH: in general recalculating num_vehicles on load is The Right Thing(tm)
07:48:15  <Tron> but i think it's done wrong
07:48:20  <DarkSSH> wrongly ;)
07:48:23  <peter1138> DarkSSH: so recalculating fixes the sympton, not the cause
07:48:28  <Vornicus> wrong.
07:48:29  <Vornicus> :P
07:48:32  <DarkSSH> wrongly
07:48:37  <peter1138> incorrectly
07:48:41  <DarkSSH> done < this is what wrong applies to
07:48:46  <DarkSSH> not to 'it'
07:49:03  <Vornicus> wrong. :P
07:49:10  <peter1138> it's done wrongly
07:49:17  <DarkSSH> ':P' < this is not a reason
07:49:20  * DarkSSH slaps Vornicus
07:49:26  <DarkSSH> go learn some english
07:49:32  <Vornicus> I don't think I have ever heard say "wrongly" in my life.
07:49:40  <Tron> peter1138: i think it's got worse now, because i'm not sure if num_vehicles is reset to 0 when/before loading
07:49:56  <Tron> if it isn't it can/will cause desyncs
07:49:57  <peter1138> Vornicus: the a-team! wrongly convicted!
07:50:01  <Vornicus> s/heard say/heard anyone say/
07:50:18  <Tron> because num_vehicles is used in the decision which road stop to head twoards
07:50:18  *** Cheery [] has joined #openttd
07:52:12  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has left #openttd ["nobody saw it :("]
07:54:57  <Vornicus> ...nope, the savegame does not crash under the latest nightly.
07:55:36  <Tron> [X] you're missing the point
07:55:41  <Tron> <DarkSSH> peter1138: do pre-4320
07:55:47  <Vornicus> ah.
07:55:54  <Vornicus> would I do that?
07:56:09  <Tron> probably you don't
07:56:59  <DarkSSH> Vornicus: it does CRASH
07:57:03  *** Hendikins [n=wolfox@pdpc/supporter/student/Hendikins] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
07:57:14  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
07:57:16  <DarkSSH> you just wasted five minutes of mine to get the latest nightly and test it
07:57:22  <DarkSSH> mine = my time
07:57:43  <peter1138> heh
07:57:48  <peter1138> at least the assert is there
07:57:52  *** Hendikins [n=wolfox@pdpc/supporter/student/Hendikins] has joined #openttd
07:59:20  <peter1138> um
07:59:27  <peter1138> ok, there is an issue
07:59:41  <DarkSSH> < thoughts?
07:59:41  <peter1138> if the savegame is pre 25, it resets each vehicle's road slot
07:59:56  <peter1138> but it does that *after* incrementing num_vehicles in Load_ROADSTOP
08:01:23  <Tron> peter1138: which revision causes the problem you're talking about?
08:01:33  <DarkSSH> < breakfast
08:01:35  *** DarkSSH [] has quit ["leaving"]
08:01:40  <peter1138> 4321
08:01:42  <peter1138> (heh)
08:02:33  *** DJ_Mirage [] has joined #openttd
08:02:37  <Tron> peter1138: so it got even worse?
08:03:28  <Vornicus> These buses are incredibly unreliable.  Also they're not making any money.  But nothing seems to be wrong.
08:05:41  <Vornicus> ...zomg
08:05:50  <Vornicus> So this is why nobody plays against the AI.
08:07:15  <peter1138> heh
08:07:17  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
08:08:12  * peter1138 puts in some debugging
08:09:32  <Tron> ah, ok, problem in the savegame:
08:09:35  *** tokai|3 [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
08:09:51  <Tron> the road stop at 0x5070 has wrong num_vehicles
08:10:29  <peter1138> yeah
08:10:32  <peter1138> that's the symptons
08:10:34  <peter1138> er symptoms
08:10:44  <Tron> yes and no
08:10:52  <Tron> it's inconsistent data in the savegame
08:11:06  <Tron> num_vehicles is saved as 1
08:11:24  <Tron> but 2 busses point at that stop
08:11:38  <Tron> of course the problem happend earlier
08:11:59  <Tron> but the savegame is broken, so it's already too late
08:12:01  <peter1138> tbh, i thought that was pretty much known by the nature of the assert
08:12:11  <peter1138> hence it's the symptom, not the cause
08:12:29  *** thgergo [] has joined #openttd
08:12:33  <Tron> yes, but there's no way to reconstruct the cause from that savegame
08:12:42  <Tron> because the problem happend _before_ the save
08:12:42  <peter1138> indeed
08:12:43  <peter1138> however
08:12:50  <Tron> that's what i wanted to find out
08:12:59  <peter1138> i've put in a little loop that happens when num_vehicles is set to 0 in ClearSlot
08:13:17  <peter1138> it will assert if another vehicle points at the slot
08:14:07  <peter1138> i must say it's weird seeing point to point rail lines
08:14:18  <peter1138> barely a signal in sight, heh
08:14:33  <peter1138> lol
08:14:37  <peter1138> at drinningvill lakeside
08:14:41  <peter1138> (maybe this is new, i dunno)
08:14:51  <Vornicus> heh.  if you watch it long enough, the AI will repeatedly raise and lower the terrain near the starting view.
08:15:00  <peter1138> ah, not it's not
08:15:00  <Vornicus> Also to the northeast there's a grid of roads.
08:15:23  <Tron> guys? topic?
08:15:36  <peter1138> on the northeast of the map there are *four* very long wooden bridges where one would suffice
08:15:56  <peter1138> i've got it on fast forward to see if this occurs again
08:16:54  <peter1138> a detailed info handler would be nice
08:17:23  <peter1138> click with the info tool on a roadstop and it tells you stuff about it, in the console
08:17:26  <peter1138> or something
08:18:09  <Tron> what we need is probably the savegame of the month _before_
08:18:20  <peter1138> yeah
08:18:23  <Tron> write one
08:20:41  *** WolfLaptop [] has joined #openttd
08:23:23  <Tron> peter1138: it could be related to all the broken busses
08:23:48  <peter1138> hmm?
08:24:04  <Tron> the savegame
08:24:13  <Tron> there are several broken busses just after load
08:24:16  <peter1138> which busses are broken?
08:24:19  <peter1138> broken down?
08:24:23  <Tron> yes
08:24:54  <Vornicus> yeah, I seem to recall a problem where broken down buses would tell the bus stop they were done...
08:25:04  <Vornicus> Sometime in the past few days.
08:25:15  <Tron> there are 2 trying to enter the station
08:25:22  <Tron> the earlier one is broken
08:25:32  <peter1138> 0x5070?
08:25:52  <peter1138> hmm
08:28:20  <peter1138> //we have arrived at the correct station
08:28:22  <peter1138> ClearSlot(v);
08:29:11  <peter1138> oh, that's an incorrect comment :/
08:30:14  <Tron> hm, the slot of vehicle 7 expires _while it is entering the bus stop_
08:30:25  <Tron> dbg: Multistop: Slot expired for vehicle 7 (index 1356) at stop 0x5070
08:30:25  <Tron> dbg: Multistop: Clearing slot at 0x5070 by vehicle 7
08:30:25  <Tron> dbg: Multistop: Attempting to obtain a slot for vehicle 7 (index 1356) at station 91 (0x5070)
08:30:37  <Tron> luckily it gets the same road stop again
08:31:03  <peter1138> it gets the slot again on the next tick?
08:31:40  <peter1138> oh, could even be the same slot...
08:31:41  <peter1138> ahh
08:31:47  <peter1138> hmm
08:31:51  <peter1138> tick i mean
08:32:55  <peter1138> ...
08:33:09  <peter1138> why does it change the slot age even if there's no slot?
08:40:39  <Tron> interesting question, locally i swaped those two clauses
08:41:03  <peter1138> it probably doesn't actually affect anything
08:41:19  <peter1138> but i think clearing a slot when it's entering is bad
08:45:25  <Tron> the slot of vehicle 5 expires, too, before its in the loading bay
08:48:24  *** Spoco [] has joined #openttd
09:00:02  <stillunknown> peter1138: are you here?
09:04:30  *** Jenkz [] has joined #openttd
09:11:54  <peter1138> bah
09:12:03  <peter1138> i need sausages, bacon and white bread
09:12:09  <guru3> ^^
09:12:42  <peter1138> hmm, that game in 1979
09:12:46  <peter1138> trundworth is now massive
09:12:47  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
09:13:41  <peter1138> (it also hasn't crashed yet)
09:13:55  <peter1138> ((so maybe it's user interaction related))
09:15:10  *** tokai|noir [] has quit ["It's like, wah."]
09:15:55  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
09:28:10  <stillunknown> i've run into something strange: it boils down to this: (speed_ma*speed_ma*constant) / (1000*10*10) doesn't produce the same result as (speed*speed*constant) / (1000)
09:28:26  <stillunknown> when speed_ma is a factor ten larger then speed
09:29:22  <Tron> exactly 10?
09:29:30  <Tron> or +-9?
09:29:52  <stillunknown> speed_ma is in m/s ^-1
09:29:57  <stillunknown> so it's more precise
09:31:09  <peter1138> 10^-1
09:31:11  <peter1138> heh
09:31:36  <stillunknown> is that funny?
09:31:52  <stillunknown> int speed = (v->cur_speed * 5 / 9 + 1) >> 1;
09:32:03  <stillunknown> int speed_ma = ((v->cur_speed * multiplyfactor * 5 / 9 + 1 * multiplyfactor)) >> 1;
09:32:18  <stillunknown> this works fine (i use fprintf to stderr to check some thing)
09:32:41  <stillunknown> force_airdrag = (speed_ma * speed_ma * drag_coeff) / (1000 * multiplyfactor*multiplyfactor);
09:33:11  <stillunknown> this produces results much to small
09:33:50  <stillunknown> and with a bigger multiply factor than 10 (let's say a 100) it will become -100<force_airdrag<100
09:34:09  <stillunknown> strange thing is, for safety force_airdrag is int64
09:34:25  <stillunknown> so i would find an overflow strange
09:34:44  <peter1138> what value is drag_coeff?
09:35:06  <stillunknown> the train i tested with had a drag_coeff of 1700
09:35:54  <Tron> v->cur_speed * multiplyfactor * 5 / 9 <--- INTEGER ARITHMETHICS
09:36:23  <Tron> x * 10 / 9 / 10 != x / 9
09:36:42  <stillunknown> shouldn't a bigger number devided be more accurate?
09:37:15  <stillunknown> just assume the speed calculations work
09:37:20  <stillunknown> they do, that i know
09:37:32  *** RoySmeding [] has joined #openttd
09:37:39  <stillunknown> speed=240 for example and speed_ma=2402
09:39:45  <Vornicus> sure, but if the bigger number adds additional data, it can change the way it acts later down the line.
09:40:09  <peter1138> i think that's the point
09:40:21  <peter1138> it shouldn't be wildly out though
09:40:33  <stillunknown> in my test case (speed_ma * speed_ma * drag_coeff) was about 9.8*10^9 which should be in the range of int64
09:40:39  <Vornicus> since division is flooring.
09:41:35  <stillunknown> the end result shouldn't be a factor 9 too small
09:43:17  *** ^Cartman^ [] has joined #openttd
09:44:15  <stillunknown> tried a multiply factor of 5 and it works, i don't understand why it overflows
09:45:30  <Tron> print the whole line, please
09:45:42  <Tron> with the declaration of the variables
09:46:15  <stillunknown> int multiplyfactor = 5;
09:46:23  <stillunknown> int speed_ma = ((v->cur_speed * multiplyfactor * 5 / 9 + 1 * multiplyfactor)) >> 1;
09:46:44  <stillunknown> force_airdrag = (speed_ma * speed_ma * drag_coeff) / (1000 * multiplyfactor*multiplyfactor);
09:47:10  <Tron> where's that int64 you're talking about?
09:47:35  <stillunknown> int64 force_airdrag = 0;
09:47:37  <stillunknown> forgot that
09:47:44  <Tron> and a  hint: int [*+/-] int = int
09:47:56  <TSC> But if cur_speed and multiplyfactor and ints, the calculation will be done with an int
09:48:01  <TSC> s/and/are
09:48:03  <Tron> that's the point
09:48:08  <Qball> just wanted to say that.
09:48:28  <stillunknown> can i force to treat them as int64?
09:48:40  <Tron> just the assignment (=) converts the int result to int64
09:48:51  <TSC> Cast v->cur_speed to int64
09:49:04  <TSC> (int64) v->cur_speed * mult...
09:49:16  <peter1138> boo to casts
09:50:07  <stillunknown> so if you put (int64) before a variable it will be treated as an int64, but only there?
09:50:19  <TSC> The *value* will be converted to an int64
09:50:22  <TSC> Not the variable
09:50:35  <stillunknown> why the boo from peter?
09:50:49  * Vornicus still wonders why you're so enamored with ints and fixed point here.  Floating point division and multiplication are actually faster than their integer counterparts.
09:51:04  <TSC> Casts can be dangerous if you're not careful
09:51:21  <stillunknown> clarify if you can
09:51:26  <Qball> Vornicus: depends on the cpu
09:51:39  <Tron> Vornicus: you CANNOT use floating point for _any_ game state influencing calculations in ottd
09:52:28  <Vornicus> i see
09:52:32  <Vornicus> well, okay.
09:54:14  <Tron> but i fail to see the point why you would need values beyond 10^9 for speed calculations
09:54:34  <Vornicus> I am still confused by what this thing is supposed to be doing; if it's a more realistic physics simulator, why not convert all the units to whatever openttd uses internally (frames, pixels or what-have-you)?
09:54:58  <stillunknown> for that i know too little of the game
09:55:16  <stillunknown> i'm just trying to remove a few weak points of a very nice patch (imo)
09:55:35  <Qball> it sounds fancy: We use 64bit precision speed accelration
09:55:57  <TSC> It doesn't seem very precise from this discussion (:
09:56:45  <Qball> offcourse it aint.
09:57:26  <stillunknown> what i tried to do, is to conversion from internal units to m/s more accurate than a whole m/s
09:57:28  <stillunknown> which is a lot
09:57:53  <Qball> but it's 'nice' to support 9223372036854775808 different speeds
09:58:46  <stillunknown> all the calulations are done with SI units and the source numbers were inaccurate
09:58:56  <Tron> use uint64 and you even have 18446744073709551616 different speeds
09:59:15  <Tron> SI like _kilograms_?
09:59:50  <gradator> International System :p
10:00:23  <stillunknown> kg, newtons, m/s, etc
10:00:26  <Tron> it's pretty pointless to use kilograms for the vehicle mass
10:00:38  <Tron> that alone is a factor of 1000
10:01:10  <Qball> well if you do it in kg, you can take the weight of the driver in account
10:01:11  <gradator>
10:01:13  <Qball> and the passengers
10:02:12  <Tron> gradator: we know what SI units are
10:04:55  <peter1138> stillunknown: (m/s * m/s * drag_coeff) / 1000 == (km/h * km/h * drag_coeff) / 12960
10:07:58  <Qball> hmmm
10:08:17  <stillunknown> that leaves the question, how do i get kmh out of openttd
10:10:07  <peter1138> oh, it's mph
10:10:08  <peter1138> well
10:10:15  <peter1138> the existing acceleration converts to kmh
10:10:15  <peter1138> but
10:10:43  <Vornicus> actually your best bet is to use whatever it uses internally and only use one magic number per formula.
10:10:58  <peter1138> Vornicus: yeah
10:11:01  <peter1138> hence the but
10:11:48  <stillunknown> is there a wiki entry with speed related things, like conversion factors?
10:12:00  <peter1138> so
10:12:11  <stillunknown> magic numbers are far from transparant
10:12:15  <peter1138> (mph * mph * drag_coeff) / 5004
10:12:30  <Vornicus> they're far from transparent, but you only have to get them right once.
10:12:47  <stillunknown> finetuning later on will be a bitch
10:12:57  <peter1138> 5004 = 1000 * 2.2369363^2
10:13:52  <stillunknown> what i'd like to know is: what kind of strange unit is used for internal speed
10:15:45  <peter1138> fpr trains, it's mph
10:16:06  <peter1138> *for
10:16:42  <stillunknown> for trucks it was 1/2*mph?
10:17:32  <peter1138> i think so
10:17:45  <stillunknown> and airplanes was even stranger
10:18:43  <stillunknown> are there intentions of rectifying all these issues?
10:20:13  <stillunknown> what is the 2.2369363 factor?
10:20:29  <peter1138> mph -> m/s
10:21:14  <peter1138> units is a great program ;)
10:21:17  <peter1138> You have: mile/hour
10:21:17  <peter1138> You want: metre/second
10:21:20  <peter1138>         * 0.44704
10:21:20  <peter1138>         / 2.2369363
10:22:50  <stillunknown> how much work would it be (guesstimate) to convert everything in the game to m/s and get rid of those strange ratios between vehicles?
10:23:12  <peter1138> that would leave the resolution issue
10:23:31  <peter1138> and m/s*10^-1 is a strange unit
10:24:14  <Tron> meters per decasecond?
10:24:46  <stillunknown> dm/s
10:25:08  <Tron> decimeters works, too
10:25:30  <peter1138> for rvs, it outputs max_speed * 10 / 32
10:25:51  <peter1138> s/outputs/displays/
10:25:55  <stillunknown> int speed_mph = (v->cur_speed);
10:25:59  <stillunknown> is this right?
10:26:06  <peter1138> for trains, yes
10:27:40  <peter1138> max road vehicle speed is 79 mph?
10:28:03  <stillunknown> looking at me?
10:28:05  <peter1138> the internal speed for rvs is 2 * km/h then
10:28:37  <peter1138> newgrf specs'll tell me, heh
10:29:03  *** stavrosg [] has quit ["brb"]
10:30:23  <peter1138> hmmm
10:30:25  <peter1138> max speed is in kmh
10:30:28  <peter1138> for trains
10:30:37  <peter1138> but current speed is in mph?
10:30:39  <peter1138> huh?
10:31:24  *** Mukke [] has joined #openttd
10:31:24  <stillunknown> a genuine mess
10:32:20  <peter1138> mind you
10:32:50  <peter1138> is that how it was original, or just how "realistic" accel works...
10:33:31  <peter1138> if (v->cur_speed > v->max_speed)
10:33:36  <peter1138> o_O
10:34:21  <stillunknown> cur_speed is in km/h
10:34:27  <stillunknown> i just found out
10:34:42  <peter1138> ····SetDParam(0, rvi->max_speed * 10 >> 4);
10:34:44  <peter1138> yes
10:34:59  <peter1138> so why does realistic accel convert it from mph to kmh
10:35:22  *** Pixelz [] has joined #openttd
10:36:00  <peter1138> Tron: that game is at 1985 now and still no crash
10:36:59  *** jerome_ [] has joined #openttd
10:37:45  <stillunknown> you mean the realistic accel in the trunk?
10:37:50  <peter1138> yes
10:37:52  <peter1138> not physics accel
10:38:18  <peter1138> we should leave it in kmh, even in setdparam
10:38:26  <peter1138> and have the units system convert from kmh to mph
10:38:51  <peter1138> kmh gives the best resolution out of mph, kmh & m/s
10:38:52  <Tron> %p7zip
10:38:53  <Tron> /usr/local/bin/p7zip: compressed data not written to a terminal.
10:38:53  <Tron> For help, type: /usr/local/bin/p7zip -h
10:38:53  <Tron> %p7zip -h
10:38:53  <Tron> Usage: /usr/local/bin/p7zip [-d] [-h|--help] [file]
10:39:01  <peter1138> helpful
10:39:17  <Tron> i'm impressed that there is less informative documentation than gnu documentation
10:39:39  <peter1138> removing the mph/kmh conversion makes my trains struggle more
10:40:05  <stillunknown> struggle as in getting the last few few % towards max speed?
10:40:09  <peter1138> yes
10:40:34  <peter1138> which is desirable. i'm running 540t trains on 2200hp
10:41:09  <stillunknown> basicly realistic accel was very unrealistic?
10:42:19  <peter1138> yeah
10:42:33  <peter1138> with the conversion in, my 2200hp trains easily get to 80mph
10:43:02  *** BJH [] has joined #openttd
10:43:14  <stillunknown> but realistic accel is a bunch of magic numbers that make no sense iirc
10:44:23  *** joed [] has joined #openttd
10:44:47  *** joed [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:47:03  <peter1138> ok
10:47:04  *** joed [] has joined #openttd
10:47:17  * peter1138 patchifies
10:47:34  <peter1138> ship speed appears to be kmh * 2 too
10:47:43  <peter1138> (and nfo confirms it)
10:47:46  <Qball> consistency? impossible
10:48:03  <peter1138> basically i am now removing all the kmh -> mph conversions in the gui code
10:48:08  <peter1138> to put them in the units code
10:48:49  <peter1138> however
10:48:59  <peter1138> aircraft are mph * 8
10:49:07  <peter1138> so...
10:49:10  <peter1138> trains: kmh
10:49:15  <peter1138> road vehicles: kmh * 2
10:49:19  <peter1138> ships: kmh * 2
10:49:23  <peter1138> aircraft: mph * 8
10:49:23  <peter1138> o_O
10:52:46  <peter1138> o_O
10:52:55  <peter1138> speed / 16 * 10 is done for bridges
10:53:46  *** joed [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:54:08  *** stavrosg [] has joined #OpenTTD
10:54:39  <stillunknown> i would probably turn everything into kmh instead of making stupid conversions
10:54:53  <stillunknown> (make them real speed)
10:54:54  <peter1138> for now, i'm changing the display code to leave it in kmh
10:56:17  <peter1138> (means i need to convert from mph to kmh for aircraft)
10:57:25  <stillunknown> the m/s per second are up to "2 decimals" accurate
10:58:03  <stillunknown> i compared the kmh and the improved m/s and it was all wrong
10:58:12  <peter1138> oddly the nfo spec says "mph * 1.6" and "mph * 3.2"
10:58:31  <stillunknown> turned out to be a +1 factor which was unneeded for more accurate results
10:58:33  <peter1138> not kmh
10:58:37  <stillunknown> that seems wrong
11:00:20  *** Mukke [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
11:01:16  <stillunknown> maybe it's time for important devs to take a vote on what path to take, because this strange combination of mph and kmh seems strange
11:01:40  <stillunknown> *mph and kmh is a problem
11:03:15  *** Mukke [] has joined #openttd
11:04:00  <SpComb> kmh!
11:04:14  <SpComb> or preferrably use m/s
11:04:42  <peter1138> we can't use m/s
11:05:25  <stillunknown> too inaccurate
11:05:44  <Qball> m/s is kinda useless in this game
11:06:00  <Qball> you don't have "meter" accuricy
11:06:05  <stillunknown> but kmh would make sense
11:07:46  <Qball> or mph but not mixed
11:08:34  <stillunknown> kmh are bigger numbers
11:08:42  <stillunknown> with integers that's not a bad idea
11:09:16  <Qball> still I doubt if that "accuracie (or how to write it)" is visible in ttd.
11:09:30  <peter1138> with mph/kmh, not relaly
11:09:32  <peter1138> with m/s, yes
11:09:42  <peter1138> in things like max speed calcs
11:09:43  <SpComb> use cm/y
11:09:49  <peter1138> heh
11:09:57  <SpComb> and take leap years into account
11:10:03  <SpComb> on those the vehicles move slower
11:10:04  <Pixelz> why can't you use m/s?
11:11:29  <stillunknown> 1 m/s is 3.6 km/h, that means a maximum fault of 1.8 km/h
11:11:35  <stillunknown> which is too much
11:12:21  <stillunknown> dm/s or cm/s is overkill 99% of the time
11:14:18  <stillunknown> there is still one thing that is very unrealistic, the breaking at stations
11:14:35  <stillunknown> a train should decrease speed in advance
11:14:47  <Pixelz> they do
11:15:28  <Pixelz> that's why you build long entrances or the train ends up breaking in the middle of the entry signals
11:15:45  <stillunknown> but a maglev@400 km/h can't slow down to a fraction of it's speed in a few meters
11:15:54  <michi_cc> any dev here that can take a look at ?
11:16:02  <Pixelz> well, that's true
11:16:36  <Pixelz> I don't really understand that 1.8 km/h maximun fault by the way
11:16:40  <Pixelz> but I guess it's correct :p
11:18:10  <stillunknown> speed calculations are integers
11:18:27  <stillunknown> if the results is 39.40, then it will become 39
11:18:57  <stillunknown> if you pick a scale where every unit represents a larger speed difference
11:19:04  <stillunknown> then the accuracy will drop
11:19:05  <Pixelz> hmm well it's not like the world is in 1:1 scale anyway so the "correct" speed is really in the eye of the beholder
11:19:31  <michi_cc> Celestar: might be something for you:
11:19:58  <stillunknown> true, but inaccuracy can always be added later if needed :-)
11:20:17  <peter1138> it's not a case of inaccuracy, it's a case of resolution
11:21:42  <stillunknown> was there anything else besides max speed issues wrong with those physics patches?
11:23:04  <stillunknown> (i think i've done as much as possible for the train bit)
11:33:58  *** x87 [i=id@tor/session/x-6d726f25bed7002a] has left #openttd []
11:35:23  *** chu_ [] has joined #openttd
11:35:35  <chu_> hi
11:36:04  <chu_> is there a native german speaker? i need some help with translations
11:39:41  *** x87 [n=x87@tor/session/x-7c1520a45cf78a2d] has joined #openttd
11:41:19  <tokai|noir> Cheery: ask
11:41:38  <tokai|noir> chu_ even:)
11:43:42  <chu_> (i'll speak german to discuss the german translation)
11:44:02  <chu_> "Electrified Railway Construction" wird im menue zur auswahl der bauoptionen verwendet
11:44:22  <chu_> die anderen lauten "Eisenbahnbau", "Monorailbau" und so
11:44:36  <chu_> "Elektrischeeisenbahnbau" ist aber irgendwie ziemlich haesslich
11:45:02  <tokai|noir> ja
11:45:12  <chu_> aber es soll ja auch irgendwie aehnlich aussehen
11:45:27  <chu_> beim hafen steht "Hafenanlage bauen"
11:45:41  <chu_> ob ich das im eisenbahnmenue umbaue zu "Eisenbahn bauen"
11:45:54  <tokai|noir> würde ich so machen, ja.
11:46:49  *** SchAmane [] has joined #openttd
11:47:18  <chu_> ok. das war's schon. back to english
11:47:45  *** e1ko_AfK [] has joined #openttd
11:48:25  *** e1ko_AfK is now known as e1ko
11:53:34  <stillunknown> int speed = ((int)v->cur_speed + (v->u.road.overtaking != 0 ? 1 : 0)) * 1000 / 72 + ((((int)v->subspeed * 1000 / 9216) + 1) >> 1);
11:53:59  <stillunknown> anyone have a clue what this all means?
11:55:04  <stillunknown> what is subspeed and what does overtaking have to do with speed?
11:55:13  <stillunknown> (it's about roadvehicles)
11:55:30  <SimonRC> vehicles go a bit faster if the're overtaking
11:55:44  <stillunknown> but doesn't that change cur_speed?
11:55:50  <Noldo> no
11:55:56  <TSC> Why is it shifted right?
11:56:14  <SimonRC> to divide by 2
11:56:21  <TSC> That's shocking
11:56:24  <TSC> What about "/ 2"?
11:56:28  <Noldo> TSC: the author thinks it cool to use sift in place of /2
11:56:29  <SimonRC> sodomy non sapiens
11:56:38  <SimonRC> ("buggered if I know")
11:56:39  <stillunknown> what is subspeed?
11:56:58  <SimonRC> I assume this was just copied from the original game.
11:57:40  <SimonRC> For example WTF is 9216?
11:57:57  <Noldo> magic number
11:58:59  <peter1138> 9216 isn't in trunk
11:58:59  <chu_> MiHaMiX: Fatal error: Call to undefined function: htmlcode_to_iso8859_1() in /var/www/ on line 184
11:59:08  <SimonRC> its 1024 * 9
11:59:58  <SimonRC> i.e. 2^10 * 3^2
12:01:05  *** x87 [n=x87@tor/session/x-7c1520a45cf78a2d] has left #openttd []
12:01:46  <stillunknown> does someone know what subspeed is?
12:04:29  <CIA-5> peter1138 * r4322 /trunk/ (7 files):
12:04:29  <CIA-5> - Codechange: Remove conversion of kmh to mph from gui code to within the units
12:04:29  <CIA-5> conversion system, in string.c. This means displaying kmh requires no
12:04:29  <CIA-5> conversion, instead of being convert from kmh to mph, and then back to kmh
12:04:29  <CIA-5> again.
12:04:41  <peter1138> *converted o_O
12:07:19  * stillunknown broke a train speed record a while back, a 10 part maglev train with a capacity of 40 people reached 920 km/h
12:09:49  *** znikoz2 [] has joined #openttd
12:10:27  <stillunknown> woohoo 1100 km/h, takes long to get there and a bit uneconomic :-)
12:10:55  *** znikoz2 [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
12:11:14  *** Spocoo [] has joined #openttd
12:11:39  *** znikoz2 [] has joined #openttd
12:17:10  <stillunknown> should a group of locs (about 55000 hp) at a weight of 600t be able to exceed 700 km/h on the long run?
12:17:31  *** e1ko is now known as e1ko_AfK
12:18:01  <peter1138> depends on their gearing, heh
12:28:05  *** Spoco [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:28:17  *** Spoco [] has joined #openttd
12:29:56  <stillunknown> still here peter1138?
12:30:21  *** Qrrbrbirlbel [] has joined #openttd
12:31:55  *** Spocoo [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:36:54  *** Forexs [] has joined #openttd
12:38:36  <izhirahider> You might think I'm crazy, but I've been playing for quite a while now, without music, and all of a sudden, music starts!
12:39:39  *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-198-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
12:41:16  <izhirahider> I have no idea how to debug this
12:44:54  <stillunknown> maybe get the sourcecode, find what triggers music to play and do a search trough the entire codebase?
12:45:30  *** DjViper [] has quit ["Client Exiting"]
12:45:36  <izhirahider> yes, I'm using svn
12:45:43  *** DjViper [] has joined #Openttd
12:46:18  <izhirahider> the music just pops up after minutes or hours after I start the game. Before, it's as if the .gm files weren't even there
12:46:43  <izhirahider> Since no one else seems to have this problem, I guess it's a config problem of my system
12:50:29  <Zr40> izhirahider: does that always happen with the same track?
12:54:03  *** Alltaken [n=chatzill@blender/artist/allTaken] has joined #openttd
12:55:38  <Vornicus> gasp.  it is Alltaken.
12:56:10  <Sacro> izhirahider: what os?
12:56:14  <ThePizzaKing> it is :o
12:56:29  <Alltaken> hi
12:57:06  <ThePizzaKing> hi Alltaken
13:01:02  <Sacro> hello Alltaken
13:01:08  <Alltaken> hello everyone
13:03:10  *** jerome_ [] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
13:03:12  <ThePizzaKing> anyway, goodnight
13:03:22  *** ThePizzaKing [] has quit ["Don't worry, I'll be back tomorrow to annoy you then :)"]
13:05:55  <izhirahider> Sacro: Linux
13:06:55  <izhirahider> Zr40: Even though I have *.gm in the gm/ directory, at start, the jukebox scrolls through all as if I didn't have any. After an undisclosed ammount of minutes the music just starts up all of a sudden
13:07:21  <Zr40> hmm
13:07:47  <Zr40> openttd-linux used timidity for music, right?
13:08:07  <gradator> right
13:08:26  <Zr40> it looks like timidity's got a problem and quits just as it is started
13:08:40  <valhallasw> maley321 just joined the #openttdcoop sandbox ;(
13:08:57  <Zr40> izhirahider: once it starts playing, does it keep playing or does it stop after some time again?
13:09:05  <Zr40> valhallasw: who's maley321?
13:09:50  <izhirahider> Zr40: when it starts playing it's ok, it doesn't stop. It works as it should
13:10:04  <Zr40> do you happen to use KDE?
13:10:10  <valhallasw> Zr40: THE maley
13:10:18  <Zr40> valhallasw: who is?
13:10:28  <valhallasw> do you ever look at the forums? :P
13:10:33  <Zr40> not really :)
13:10:38  <izhirahider> Zr40: Gnome
13:10:40  <Zr40> well... once or twice
13:10:41  <Alltaken> could people with Acrobat please test if FDF's work for me.  if you could fill out this incomplete form and send the results to me it would be great. just stick anything in any field you want. tell me if it was hard or not.
13:10:53  <Zr40> izhirahider: hmm, so it's not aRts waiting some time to shut down
13:10:55  <izhirahider> Zr40: do you think it might be the sound server?
13:10:59  <valhallasw> er, maley123 is his name :p
13:11:18  <Zr40> izhirahider: sound server? are you using one?
13:11:19  <SpComb> hmm
13:11:31  <SpComb> maley123?
13:11:39  <Sacro> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
13:11:40  <izhirahider> I don't think so. If that was the case, I wouldn't have in-game sound, which I have fine
13:11:44  <SpComb> ah
13:12:34  <Zr40> izhirahider: when it happens again, try running 'timidity gm/' and look for errors
13:12:38  <Sacro> is timidity configured correctly?
13:12:54  <Zr40> Sacro: then it wouldn't start working all of a sudden, I'd imagine
13:13:25  <Sacro> Zr40: true, it might be that somethings stealing its output though
13:13:34  <Zr40> yeah
13:13:43  <Zr40> maybe openttd itself, as sound is working
13:13:56  <Zr40> but that doesn't explain the 'suddenly working' part
13:14:07  <Sacro> izhirahider: timidity -iA -Os
13:14:34  <Sacro> should run it, and then start openttd in another term and watch the timidity output for messages
13:15:31  <Zr40> timidity doesn't need to be started before running
13:15:41  <Zr40> at least it didn't need to when I was running linux a year ago
13:15:51  <Zr40> openttd starts timidity by itself
13:17:02  <Sacro> i run it as a daemon normally, so i can use rosegarden
13:17:55  <Zr40> if you do that, timidity registers a virtual MIDI port with ALSA
13:18:00  <Zr40> which rosegarden will use
13:18:32  <Zr40> but openttd doesn't use ALSA for MIDI, but instead runs an external player (timidity by default, but pmidi could also work)
13:18:54  <Sacro> hmmm
13:25:38  *** RoySmeding [] has quit ["kthxbye"]
13:26:46  <izhirahider> I have to run timidity with -Os to use ALSA, since it by default looks for Esd
13:29:16  <Sacro> izhirahider: perhaps thats why its failing
13:29:19  *** DebolazX [] has quit [Connection timed out]
13:31:39  <izhirahider> Ok, after I left the game, I get several messages:
13:31:46  <izhirahider> extmidi: set volume not implemented
13:31:51  <izhirahider> extmidi: set volume not implemented
13:31:52  <izhirahider> ...
13:32:32  <Sacro> that doesnt seem to be a big problem
13:32:50  <izhirahider> Sacro: timidity -iA -Os gives: Requested buffer size 32768, fragment size 8192
13:33:08  <izhirahider> ALSA pcm 'default' set buffer size 60208, period size 3760 bytes
13:33:08  <CIA-5> tron * r4323 /trunk/station_cmd.c:
13:33:08  <CIA-5> -Regression: Clear the slot assignments of all vehicles heading twoards a road stop if that road stop gets removed
13:33:08  <CIA-5> This issue was fixed in r2210 and reintroduced in r4259 when the multistop handling was overhauled.
13:33:14  <Sacro> izhirahider: seems ok
13:33:19  <izhirahider> TiMidity starting in ALSA server mode
13:33:32  <izhirahider> Opening sequencer port: 128:0 128:1 128:2 128:3
13:34:28  * peter1138 hmms at houses
13:34:34  <peter1138> Reception 4: 6'2 x 4'10
13:35:29  *** Rexxie [] has joined #openttd
13:38:43  <izhirahider> ah ha, timidity when I start it after boot doesn't work properly
13:39:00  <izhirahider> timidity svn/openttd/gm/
13:39:08  <izhirahider> esd: No such file or directory
13:39:21  <izhirahider> Couldn't open Enlightened sound daemon (`e')
13:39:35  <izhirahider> I guess I have to configure timidity to use Alsa somewhere
13:40:05  <yanek> Hey guys! What is status of PBS ? I don't see it in trunk. pbs-branch crashing :/
13:40:39  <KUDr> :) PBS is waiting for YAPF
13:40:45  <KUDr> YAPF is in progress
13:41:06  <KUDr> PBS branch is not for playing
13:41:13  <Noldo> KUDr: do you have some design documents?
13:41:18  <yanek> and YAPF is waiting for XYZ and XYZ is waiting for PBS, yes, i know ;-)
13:41:39  <KUDr> Noldo: no
13:42:02  <KUDr> now i am debugging first yapf model
13:42:18  <KUDr> it works, but still not perfect
13:42:34  <KUDr> more like Dijkstra than A*
13:42:43  <Noldo> what are you changing from npf?
13:42:50  <KUDr> nothing
13:43:14  <KUDr> yapf is completelly new - same alg, different (faster) implementation
13:46:06  <Noldo> what was slow about npf implementation?
13:46:50  <KUDr> 1) flexibility and modularity goes against performance
13:47:03  <KUDr> 2) no optimizations possible
13:47:28  <KUDr>   - without breaking frexibility
13:47:32  *** tokai|noir [] has quit ["It's like, wah."]
13:48:11  <Noldo> can you give some specific example?
13:48:25  <KUDr> all the modularity was used at run-time. not at compile time
13:48:49  <KUDr> all the function pointers for example
13:48:59  <KUDr> no inlining possible in this case
13:49:08  <KUDr> compiler can do nothing
13:49:09  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
13:49:21  <KUDr> FollowTrac() and Cost() is per tile
13:49:25  <KUDr> not per segment
13:49:27  <KUDr> and so on
13:49:56  <peter1138> damn, aircraft speeds are down by 1
13:50:04  <CIA-5> tron * r4324 /trunk/ (station.h station_cmd.c): Remove the unused road stop type attribute from struct RoadStop
13:50:09  <KUDr> it causes many many function calls via pointers to pointers to function pointers
13:50:13  <KUDr> and so
13:51:54  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
13:52:27  <valhallasw> sigh
13:52:42  <izhirahider> Ok,  I got it, it's timidity that wants to use Esd by all means instead of Alsa. Does any of you know how to configure timidity using a dotfile?
13:52:42  <valhallasw> what is so hard about understanding you are not supposed to guess a password
13:55:10  <Sacro> izhirahider:
13:58:23  <CIA-5> tron * r4325 /trunk/station_cmd.c:
13:58:23  <CIA-5> When updating the vehicle count for road stops after load use the slot pointer
13:58:23  <CIA-5> of the vehicle instead of recalculating the road stop using the destination tile
13:58:23  <CIA-5> of the vehicle. Apart from being more simple this could prevent a inconsistency
13:58:23  <CIA-5> of slot information in the edge case when the destination tile isn't the tile of
13:58:24  <CIA-5> the assigned slot.
13:59:57  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has joined #openttd
14:11:28  *** dst_ [] has joined #openttd
14:13:27  *** coppercore [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
14:13:46  *** coppercore [] has joined #openttd
14:14:43  <izhirahider> Is CIA-5 some sort of bot?
14:14:59  *** copperc0re [] has joined #openttd
14:15:02  <glx> yes it is
14:18:42  <CIA-5> tron * r4326 /trunk/roadveh_cmd.c: Only reduce the slot age of a vehicle if it has a slot assigned
14:25:04  *** Scia [] has joined #openttd
14:25:44  *** coppercore [] has quit ["*.net *.split"]
14:26:41  <Tobin> Alltaken: I don't know how much you care but you can't use the submit button of your PDF form in under MacOS X. It might work in Acrobat Reader though.
14:27:05  <Alltaken> Tobin:  ah true... :(
14:27:38  <Alltaken> i wonder if i can convert PDFs to html easily :P
14:28:17  <Tobin> I really dislike PDF forms when they're not going to be printed out an physically delivered. They only ever seem to work under Windows.
14:28:30  <BurtyB> depends how it was created
14:29:56  <Tobin> Alltaken: Do you really need to be able to cite people by name, btw? In all the studies I've been part of each participant has been given a pseudonym.
14:30:37  *** copperc0re is now known as coppercore
14:31:00  <Tobin> Heh, I can actually click the submit button and it highlights. It just doesn't do anything.
14:31:02  <Alltaken> Tobin:  as in "person A"
14:31:40  <Alltaken> tobin i'll find out on monday, but AFAIK i need to credit them in the bibliography.
14:31:54  <Tobin> Alltaken: You usually get an actual name. I usually ask to be called "Greg".
14:32:26  <Alltaken> well i am sure i can do that. i'll find out though.
14:32:44  <Alltaken> the info only gets shown to the lecturers anyway so its not a hueg prvicy risk
14:32:53  <Tobin> It's up to your faculty of course, but in scientific studies it has to be anonymised to get get approval from the ethics committee.
14:33:23  <Tobin> A design faculty is less likely to care about ethics though. :P
14:33:37  * Tobin hides from nearby design students
14:36:29  <Alltaken> well we have different ethics
14:36:59  <Alltaken> we also have different research methods.  our research methods are qualitative, and not quantitative.
14:37:19  <Alltaken> the researcher is a hug part of design research, and is allowed to be an influence.
14:38:14  *** SchAmane [] has quit ["Ciao"]
14:38:18  <DjViper> hi Alltaken
14:40:34  *** Qrrbrbirlbel_ [] has joined #openttd
14:40:57  <Sacro> hmm, iev got a factory with 11% transported goods, even though noones taking them
14:41:11  *** e1ko_AfK is now known as e1ko
14:41:26  <Noldo> Alltaken: what do you mean by that?
14:42:36  <Alltaken> Noldo Design research involves a lot of concepting and reflection from the researcher
14:42:51  <Alltaken> the designer tells the people ideas as sollutions to previous problems.
14:47:26  <Noldo> so it's all about how someone feels you've done
14:48:17  *** SchAmane [] has joined #openttd
14:50:21  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has joined #openttd
14:55:53  *** znikoz2 [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
14:58:39  *** Qrrbrbirlbel [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:59:03  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
15:00:42  <Alltaken> Noldo:  its about getting the info we "need" quickly, and not getting lots of info we don't really have a use for
15:01:12  <Alltaken> so the designer needs to direct the gathering of info in a non-scientific way, since we are not looking at every single factor.
15:01:32  <Alltaken> but yeah i must go to bed.
15:01:38  <Alltaken> see ya everyone.
15:01:45  *** znikoz2 [] has joined #openttd
15:01:47  <Sacro> is there a setting for stations to not collect things until a pickup arrives?
15:02:35  *** Alltaken [n=chatzill@blender/artist/allTaken] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox]"]
15:03:22  <Tobin> Sacro: Yes, isn't it on by default?
15:03:35  <Sacro> Tobin: thought so, this server must have it off
15:03:49  <Tobin> That's weird.
15:03:56  <Tobin> Why would someone turn that off?
15:04:00  <Sacro> Deliver cargo to a station only when there is a demand = off
15:04:03  <Sacro> no idae
15:04:41  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has joined #openttd
15:04:43  <Sacro> this setup is almost like a co-op design
15:04:45  <Kalpa> If they are purists!
15:05:58  <Tobin> Purists? Not delivering cargo unless there is transport available is more prototypical.
15:06:05  <Tobin> Anyway, bed time for me.
15:06:08  <Tobin> Night people.
15:06:12  <Sacro> night Tobin
15:06:24  <Kalpa> That functionality was not in original ttd
15:06:43  <Sacro> grr, and why do trains like to use the northenmost platforms
15:06:44  *** Tobin [] has quit []
15:08:05  *** RoySmeding_ [] has joined #openttd
15:11:17  *** RoySmeding_ [] has quit [Client Quit]
15:22:16  *** sw4y [] has joined #openttd
15:27:21  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
15:28:42  *** Qrrbrbirlbel [] has joined #openttd
15:34:56  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:37:03  *** jerome_ [] has joined #openttd
15:37:14  *** test_ [] has joined #openttd
15:37:21  <test_> hey guys
15:37:51  <Sacro> hey test_
15:39:33  * Vornicus coats the universe in bling.
15:39:58  *** sw4y [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:41:29  *** jerome_ [] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
15:42:15  <test_> I was checking the nightly build 4317 and was checking the fixes made in the SVN, do you know why 4317 is still vulnerable to the bugs I reported (and seems fixed)?
15:42:48  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has joined #openttd
15:42:51  <Noldo> yes, someone messed up
15:43:18  <Noldo> or they have been fixed after that nightly
15:43:38  *** Qrrbrbirlbel__ [] has joined #openttd
15:43:42  <test_> I saw the comment in the fix of 3 or more days ago
15:44:05  <test_> but the nightly build downloaded now has the bugs
15:44:59  *** jerome_ [] has joined #openttd
15:45:37  *** ^Cartman^ [] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
15:46:51  <test_> the bugs about I refer are the UDP disconnection (clients affected only) and the garbage problem which leads to the sprite error on the server
15:46:59  *** Qrrbrbirlbel_ [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:47:41  *** davehope [] has joined #openttd
15:48:12  *** PAStheLoD [] has joined #openttd
15:50:44  <davehope> Been playing openttd on and off for the past year or two (and played tt & ttd when they came out) but am having some sound porblems in Linux (Ubuntu Dapper, amd64) basically, I get no sound. I've installed timidity etc and have tried launching specifying sdl or extmidi as the sound/music drivers with no luck. I BELIEVE it may because I have two soundcards (onboard, and a real soundcard). Is there a way of telling openttd which card to use ?
15:52:23  <Noldo> try telling it to the sdl
15:54:37  <davehope> Noldo: Thanks, but already tried that. Still no sound. :/
15:55:11  <dst_> davehope: have you set the SDL_PATH_DSP environment variable?
15:55:22  *** Vornicus [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:55:31  *** Vornicus [] has joined #openttd
15:57:03  <davehope> dst_: I hadn't, no. Will set it and try. Thanks.
15:58:48  <davehope> dst_: Bingo!
15:59:33  * davehope starts digging around for his _old_ saved games.
16:01:11  *** Qrrbrbirlbel [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:05:45  * Sacro stretches
16:11:10  *** znikoz2 [] has quit []
16:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> hey... why can i not register at flyspray?
16:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it displays some weird PHP errors
16:25:21  <Eddi|zuHause> then it says "registration details sent"
16:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but they never arrive at my mail adsress
16:25:40  <Eddi|zuHause> *address
16:25:52  <BurtyB> long shot here but maybe they are having problems :p
16:26:30  *** Jaraziah [] has joined #openttd
16:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway... i have a problem with autoreplace
16:27:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it behaves weird...
16:27:28  <Eddi|zuHause>
16:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the top screenshot displays the list when selecting conventional rail
16:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> emphasis is on the highligted VT-137
16:29:18  <Eddi|zuHause> on the bottom, that is the same window with switched to electric rail
16:29:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the VT-137 disappeared
16:29:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but the details of the VT-98 are now the ones of the VT-137
16:30:05  <Eddi|zuHause> *VT-08
16:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> appears to be related to the fact that the VT-137 is not available for building anymore
16:31:10  <glx> but if you have one you should be able to replace it
16:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> this is obviously a bug ;)
16:32:28  *** Jaraziah [] has left #openttd []
16:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> might only be a display bug... but i did not test what happens if i chose any replacement there...
16:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> btw. the empty line on the bottom is selectable, and has the details of the BR150
16:33:41  <glx> really weird :)
16:33:43  *** Rexxie [] has quit ["edgepro: Sanity is a full time job."]
16:37:49  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:37:54  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
16:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> hmblgrmz... i have no fast diesel engine :(
16:50:13  *** Jaraziah [] has joined #openttd
16:51:43  <Jaraziah> Any one know somting about the nigtly and isues?
16:53:44  <Jaraziah> lets re-write that :P any one awake :)
16:54:24  <Sacro> me
16:54:36  <Sacro> to both
16:54:43  <Jaraziah> that makes 2 out of 109 :P
16:55:09  <Sacro> theres usually a few more hanging around
16:59:41  <Sacro> what is it you wanted to know anyway?
17:00:07  *** lc [] has joined #openttd
17:02:38  *** BJH [] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.12/20050915]"]
17:03:00  <Jaraziah> i get some weird error wit the curent nigtly :(
17:07:24  <Tron> and now we're supposed to guess what error you get, right?
17:10:34  <Jaraziah> no, i am re doing to see if it was a simple flaw or if it repeats :P
17:20:58  *** LucY [] has joined #openttd
17:21:35  *** Scia [] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:25:24  <Jaraziah> openttd: bridge_map.h:68: GetBridgeRampDirection: Assertion `IsBridgeRamp(t)' failed.
17:27:27  <Sacro> hmm, that one
17:29:31  *** Scia [] has joined #openttd
17:35:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i saw a flyspray entry on that one...
17:36:05  <Eddi|zuHause> might wanna check
17:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> was some kind of AI problem i believe
17:37:04  *** mouse|home [] has joined #openttd
17:37:12  *** mouse|home [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:37:21  *** mouse|home [] has joined #openttd
17:41:04  <Jaraziah> easy to test :P lets try wit disabled AI
17:42:24  <Jaraziah> bb dinner time
17:42:34  *** Jaraziah [] has quit ["( Signing out :: Bye All ::  )"]
17:44:09  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:48:14  *** Nubi [n=nubian@] has joined #openttd
17:49:27  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
17:52:22  <izhirahider> hmmm, openttd just crashed on me and the extmidi didn't died :)
17:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> damn... i so desperately need PBS... ;(
17:54:38  <KUDr> me too
17:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> how to turn a head station into a roro without tearing down half the city?
17:55:09  <Sacro> izhirahider: yeah ive had that
17:55:17  <Sacro> izhirahider: killall timidity
17:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> hey... guys... how about subways/underground stations/customizable tunnels?
17:57:33  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: after new map array :)
17:58:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that would pretty much solve my roro-issue
17:59:20  <izhirahider> If I send a train with Full Charge orders with trucks of Livestock and Grain, it comes back half empty
17:59:51  <izhirahider> actually, it comes back half empty without the trucks
18:00:21  <glx> different cargo in the same train?
18:00:40  <izhirahider> yes
18:00:50  <glx> that's normal
18:01:11  <izhirahider> shouldn't it be full load to full load all cars?
18:02:37  <peter1138> whew
18:02:39  <peter1138> 80 lengths
18:03:35  <glx> izhirahider: in "stations" patch, check the second patch (leave station when any cargo is full, if 'full load')
18:04:00  <glx> if you want to full load your train, it should be off
18:05:34  <izhirahider> where is that patch?
18:08:59  <Eddi|zuHause> in the patch-settings ;)
18:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> next to the diskette icon... the whatever-that-is-called-in-english-tool-thingie
18:09:48  *** LucY [] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
18:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (Schraubenschlüssel)
18:10:45  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: gesundheit
18:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause> ;)
18:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> oh man... these long vehicles are really huge... they look ugly...
18:13:35  <Sacro> long vehicles?
18:14:05  <peter1138> george's rvs?
18:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe so, yes
18:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> makes me want to screw around with the grf and scale them down...
18:17:18  <peter1138> i think george is the only person who likes his scale, heh
18:22:52  <stillunknown> can i ask you something peter?
18:23:11  <stillunknown> peter1138 (in case you rely on triggering)
18:23:19  <peter1138> hm?
18:24:20  <stillunknown> i a short while i will post a modified patch that will apply to trunk, but i won't have time to constantly keep adapting to trunk changes
18:24:24  <stillunknown> *in
18:28:18  <stillunknown>
18:29:04  <stillunknown> @peter1138: if you could have a look at it and if it's mostlty ok, because it will be much easier to maintain if it's in trunk
18:32:42  <stillunknown> from my knowledge from svn every change can be reverted if needed
18:37:02  <izhirahider> To revert to an older svn snapshot, do "svn checkout -r <revision_number> svn://.... " .
18:38:12  <stillunknown> i was talking about something else
18:43:09  *** e1ko [] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.67+ [SeaMonkey 1.0/2006013012]"]
18:43:23  <izhirahider> sorry
18:47:54  <stillunknown> what i meant that a revision in the trunk can be undone
18:48:02  <stillunknown> i think :-)
18:48:12  <Sacro> yeah, it can be reverted
18:48:30  <Sacro> use svn diff after:before, and apply it
18:54:02  *** Qrrbrbirlbel__ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:01:10  *** tokai|noir [] has quit ["It's like, wah."]
19:03:54  *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|dancing
19:06:33  *** Mucht|zZz [] has quit ["I'll be back!"]
19:08:25  *** jerome_ [] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
19:16:03  <Sacro> cloaking?
19:16:09  <Sacro> its like star trek
19:16:36  * Sacro imagines a group of klingons marching towards the freenode servers
19:29:23  *** stillunknown [] has quit []
19:43:59  *** jacke^ [] has joined #openttd
19:44:11  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has quit ["Leaving"]
19:44:34  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has joined #openttd
19:46:01  <Zr40> cloaking? where?
19:49:16  <Sacro> -lilo- [Global Notice] Hi all. The network is currently not accepting new connections while we work through some cloaking issues. Thanks!
19:57:03  <Noldo> or Plingons
19:57:56  <Sacro> buh?
19:59:45  *** Scia [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:04:23  *** mouse|home [] has quit ["ðÏËÉÄÁÀ"]
20:27:40  *** WolfLaptop [] has quit ["( :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: )"]
20:30:04  *** Wolfensteijn [] has joined #openttd
20:45:09  *** Cheery [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20:45:30  *** RoySmeding [] has joined #openttd
20:46:48  *** Wolfensteijn [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20:50:44  <michi_cc> Celestar: ping
20:53:15  *** test_ [] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:53:28  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4327 /branch/yapf/rail.h: {YAPF] Added TRACKDIR_BIT_NONE
20:56:44  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4328 /branch/yapf/yapf/ (7 files in 2 dirs): [YAPF] Added new pathfinder prototype
20:58:20  <Sacro> whoo yapf stuffage
21:01:06  <KUDr> Sacro: not in game yet
21:01:32  <KUDr> only as class + unit test
21:01:38  <KUDr> so it works
21:01:50  *** Angst [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:01:58  <KUDr> make unittest
21:02:06  <KUDr> and will see
21:03:30  <KUDr> and still not solved problem with OS X 10.4
21:03:48  <Sacro> neither have microsoft
21:04:24  <KUDr> what microsoft?
21:04:27  *** Tron [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> microsoft also have not solved their problem with OS X, he meant ;)
21:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem being, that OS X exists ;)
21:09:42  <KUDr> aha
21:14:36  *** lc [] has quit ["Client exiting"]
21:14:42  *** Tron [] has joined #openttd
21:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yay, i am now brand new owner of an inner-city-roro-station ;)
21:17:39  <Maedhros> i seem to be the new owner of a brand-new elrail-related Is IsBridgeRamp(t) assertion :(
21:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i do not have that assertion
21:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> but i have electric-trains-suddenly-getting-0hp-problem
21:19:25  *** SchAmane [] has quit ["Ciao"]
21:19:36  <Maedhros> Eddi|zuHause: if you build an elrail bridge, with elrail track underneath it, and then remove the track, do you get it then?
21:19:45  <Maedhros> i also seem to get that occasionally...
21:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no
21:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes, reversing the train fixes it
21:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> once it seemed that reversing the train caused it
21:22:49  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it is damn annoying
21:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> because it stops the entire track
21:25:18  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: please post comments and observations about this to
21:25:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i cannot register at flyspray
21:26:07  <michi_cc> what doesn't work?
21:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> registering ;) ... it says some weird php errors, says that it sends me my details, but the email never arrives
21:27:03  <michi_cc> okay, I got that php error as well, but my email arrived
21:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> oh... fun... now i got two
21:29:21  <Sacro> missing server?
21:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like that bash-thingie ;)
21:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause> "i can ping it, but i have no clue, where it is" ;)
21:30:19  <Sacro> yeah, i quite often have to phone my mobile to remember where i left it
21:30:52  <Maedhros> ah my IsBridgeRamp(t) assertion was either my fault, or fixed in svn recently :)
21:31:47  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:38:02  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4329 /branch/yapf/yapf/ (7 files in 2 dirs): [YAPF] Minor syntax changes to make VC6 happy + 4 missing files added
21:39:01  *** PAStheLoD [] has quit ["( :: NoNameScript 4.01 :: )"]
21:39:33  <CIA-5> KUDr * r4330 /branch/yapf/ (46 files in 4 dirs): Sync with trunk (4299:4328)
21:39:39  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has joined #openttd
21:41:23  *** Nubi [n=nubian@] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:43:04  <Sacro> does 0.4.7 have elrails?
21:43:44  *** thgergo [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
21:44:24  <Rubidium> no
21:50:16  *** ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
21:52:07  <Sacro> hey tis ThePizzaKing
21:52:21  *** RoySmeding [] has quit ["kthxbye"]
21:52:43  <ThePizzaKing> it is :) , hi Sacro
21:54:27  <Sacro> ThePizzaKing: how are you today?
21:54:49  <ThePizzaKing> I'm quite well, and yourself?
21:55:21  <Sacro> im reasonable i suppose
21:57:03  *** DJ_Mirage [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
21:59:59  <Sacro> i wish there was more nightly servers runninng
22:04:15  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:16:03  *** Jaraziah [] has joined #openttd
22:18:04  *** Xeryus|dancing is now known as XeryusTC
22:22:53  *** DaleStan_ [] has joined #openttd
22:23:01  *** DaleStan [] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
22:36:59  *** Spoco [] has quit []
22:44:37  *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-198-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:51:27  *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-151-4.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
22:51:34  <Sacro> that was fun trying to get back on
22:59:34  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
23:00:53  *** jacke^ [] has quit ["hej"]
23:01:07  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Client Quit]
23:01:28  *** ^Cartman^ [] has joined #openttd
23:01:45  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
23:03:38  *** ^Cartman^ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:05:48  *** ^Cartman^ [] has joined #openttd
23:11:06  <SpComb> hmm
23:13:11  <Sacro> hmm?
23:18:12  <orudge> Freenode does like sending out a lot of global announcements
23:18:32  <Sacro> yeah it does
23:20:31  *** stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
23:25:43  <valhallasw> orudge: correction: lilo does :p
23:33:29  *** AciD [n=gni@unaffiliated/acid] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:41:56  *** Maedhros [n=jc@gentoo/developer/Maedhros] has quit ["sleep"]
23:42:52  *** AciD [] has joined #openttd
23:51:42  *** Jenkz [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk