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00:19:54 *** Zothar [n=chatzill@adsl-69-155-218-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #openttd 00:38:40 *** Mucht|zZz_ [n=Mucht@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has joined #openttd 00:41:02 *** Mucht|zZz [n=Mucht@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:50 *** Forexs [i=Forexs@x1-6-00-0f-b5-14-63-5f.k136.webspeed.dk] has joined #openttd 00:52:23 *** Kalpa^ [i=kalpa@dsl-hkigw4-fe38de00-122.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 00:52:32 *** Kalpa [i=kalpa@dsl-hkigw4-fe38de00-122.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:01 *** Rexxie [n=rexxars@rexxars.e43-sw5.tg06.gathering.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:15 *** Rexxie [n=rexxars@rexxars.e43-sw5.tg06.gathering.org] has joined #openttd 01:04:28 *** KritiK [i=Maxim@ppp85-140-192-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:44 *** gradator [n=gradator@cryogenia.devnullteam.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:04:45 *** gradator [n=gradator@cryogenia.devnullteam.org] has joined #openttd 01:14:43 *** _Red [n=Red@81-86-117-11.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 01:18:14 *** Red222 [n=Red@81-86-117-11.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:26:22 *** Forexs [i=Forexs@x1-6-00-0f-b5-14-63-5f.k136.webspeed.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:34 *** Kalpa^ is now known as Kalpa 01:50:46 *** CobraA1 [n=Jeremiah@cpe-024-088-000-194.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 01:53:43 *** CobraA1 [n=Jeremiah@cpe-024-088-000-194.sc.res.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 01:58:56 *** stavrosg [n=stavrosg@athedsl-19769.otenet.gr] has joined #OpenTTD 02:05:03 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [i=johekr@p54B7787C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:21:52 *** glx [i=glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Bye!"] 02:24:47 *** Eddi|zuHause [n=johekr@p54B76BC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:26 *** stavrosg [n=stavrosg@athedsl-19769.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:11 *** Pipian [n=pipian@jacobi.stu.rpi.edu] has joined #openttd 03:15:31 *** Pipian [n=pipian@jacobi.stu.rpi.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:17 *** Pipian [n=pipian@jacobi.stu.rpi.edu] has joined #openttd 03:22:33 *** Zothar [n=chatzill@adsl-69-155-218-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]"] 03:45:09 *** TL|Away [n=kvirc@truelight.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:17 *** TL|Away [n=kvirc@truelight.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 04:42:33 *** Osai [n=Osai@p54B3584B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:57:32 *** RoySmeding [n=Roy@c514451cb.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 06:02:55 *** zen-- [n=zen@mindware.ee] has joined #openttd 06:07:37 <Naksu> http://www.thedailywtf.com/forums/68115/ShowPost.aspx hahahaha 06:09:02 *** Wolfensteijn [n=wolf@a61229.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:09:59 <peter1138> yuck 06:11:42 *** Jenkz [n=nobody@80-192-44-21.stb.ubr05.dund.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd 06:24:31 *** zen-- [n=zen@mindware.ee] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:26 *** Wolfensteijn [n=wolf@a61229.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit ["( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de )"] 06:35:05 *** Wolfensteijn [n=wolf@a61229.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:43:51 *** ThePizzaKing [n=thepizza@c211-28-155-182.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 06:48:06 *** Xeryus|sleep is now known as XeryusTC 06:48:48 *** Tobin [n=Tobin@c211-28-197-129.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 06:50:52 *** AciD [n=gni@unaffiliated/acid] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:03 <MiHaMiX> Naksu: lol :)) 06:53:11 <Celestar> lol 06:53:17 <Celestar> that's not how we do it, right? 06:53:18 <Celestar> :P 06:53:29 *** vondel [i=vondel@margo.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 06:54:14 *** RoySmeding [n=Roy@c514451cb.cable.wanadoo.nl] has quit ["kthxbye"] 06:54:54 <Naksu> after browsing the daily wtf for a while i've come to realize that hiding server-side executable in client-side is the norm 06:55:05 <Naksu> +code 06:55:14 <Naksu> usually it's just SQL queries in a cookie 06:55:20 <MiHaMiX> Naksu: jesus 06:56:03 <MiHaMiX> Naksu: I used to store SQL queries within the session data a year ago, but not anymore :) 06:56:29 *** blathijs [n=matthijs@katherina.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:36 <Naksu> http://www.thedailywtf.com/forums/36273/ShowPost.aspx 06:57:11 *** FauxFaux [n=faux@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:57:54 *** Rubidium [n=rubidium@rubidium.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:54 <Naksu> http://www.thedailywtf.com/forums/59595/ShowPost.aspx here's one as well 06:59:46 <MiHaMiX> LOL 06:59:51 <MiHaMiX> http://thedailywtf.com/forums/35620/ShowPost.aspx 07:00:21 *** sw4y [n=sw4y@212.24.150.227] has joined #openttd 07:02:49 <MiHaMiX> Naksu: the last one is unbelieveable :) 07:03:29 <Naksu> bah i cant find the best wtf from there 07:03:38 *** Aankhen`` [n=pockled@203.101.1.56] has joined #openttd 07:04:04 <Naksu> there was some self-rewriting asp-thingy in there 07:04:49 <Naksu> that replaced a part of it's code with something a client-side javascript thingy made 07:06:08 <MiHaMiX> hihi :DD 07:10:34 <Celestar> Tron: sorry for the messup yesterday. I've decided to refrain from worrying about the nightlies ^^ 07:16:31 <peter1138> why does that array have a dimension of 16 but only 15 values? 07:16:57 <peter1138> (i know 15 isn't a valid tileh, but still...) 07:25:12 *** christooss [n=matic@clj20-83.dial-up.arnes.si] has joined #openttd 07:27:36 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has joined #openttd 07:27:43 <MeusH> hello 07:27:45 <MeusH> hey MiHaMiX 07:27:51 <MeusH> awaken 07:31:39 <MiHaMiX> MeusH: hi 07:31:49 <MiHaMiX> MeusH: I had to fix your wagon string 07:31:55 <MiHaMiX> MeusH: I'll explain in PM why 07:32:18 <MeusH> ok 07:52:47 *** tokai [n=tokai@p54B83452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["icebears... take care of them!"] 07:53:31 *** tokai [n=tokai@p54B83452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:55:02 *** vondel [i=vondel@margo.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 07:58:49 *** blathijs [n=matthijs@katherina.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 07:59:19 *** Rubidium [n=rubidium@rubidium.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 08:00:25 *** sw4y [n=sw4y@212.24.150.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:09:59 *** DarkSSH [n=tfarago@tin.liacs.nl] has joined #openttd 08:10:01 *** mode/#openttd [+o DarkSSH] by ChanServ 08:10:04 *** DarkSSH is now known as Darkvater 08:10:10 *** mode/#openttd [-o Darkvater] by Darkvater 08:11:02 <peter1138> morningitis 08:11:46 <MeusH> hello 08:12:23 <Darkvater> KUDr: ping 08:12:25 <Darkvater> morning 08:13:10 <Darkvater> KUDr: I hope you realize that the settings you have added to settings.c need to be an SDT_CONDVAR otherwise games will fail to load? 08:15:08 *** ^Cartman^ [n=Eric_Car@ti100710a081-6310.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 08:19:23 *** WolfLaptop [n=wolf@213.196.14.87] has joined #openttd 08:40:15 <KUDr> Darkvater: after i made them, i realized, that something goes wrong and i will need your help/consultation 08:40:30 <KUDr> morning 08:41:16 <Zr40> heh 08:41:18 <Zr40> http://www.firefoxflicks.com/backstage/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/microsoft-sponsorship.jpg 08:41:27 <KUDr> i didn't want to save it in savegames, but wanted to let user to set it via GUI 08:44:43 <MeusH> nice image Zr40 :) 08:45:44 <Darkvater> KUDr: ah, not save it? Add the 'S' flag :) 08:46:25 <Darkvater> KUDr: but it's not that big of a problem. It'll be sorted out anyways when merged 08:46:41 <Darkvater> although if it has to do with pathfinding, you HAVE to save it with the savegame, otherwise MP will desync 08:48:12 *** Angst [n=Angst@p549447A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:48:54 <KUDr> Darkvater: for MP i plan to have that user based 08:49:09 <KUDr> so i must send it to server 08:49:18 *** Scia [n=sciapode@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:49:19 <KUDr> a to other clients 08:49:26 <KUDr> dunno how 08:49:30 <MeusH> you mean, one player uses normal pathfinder, and the other one uses yapf? 08:49:58 <KUDr> but each user should decide what pf he wants (if he chooses YAPF) 08:50:15 <KUDr> MeusH maybe 08:50:25 <Darkvater> hmm, but that means that ALL pathfinders NEED to behave EXACTLY the same in ALL circumstances 08:50:30 <KUDr> or at least when YAPF will be selected 08:50:43 <Darkvater> (all YAPF) 08:50:46 <KUDr> let user to customize at least some parameters 08:50:53 <KUDr> including PBS (later) 08:51:35 <MeusH> KUDr: what if a company is managed by two players with different pathfinder options? 08:51:50 <Darkvater> well if you can do that, that's fine. But if not all patch-settings need to be the same which will result in needing to save it 08:51:58 <KUDr> Darkvater: no but on each cleants it must select the same type of YAPF per-user 08:52:13 *** shintah [i=bebble@bebble.olf.sgsnet.se] has joined #openttd 08:52:30 <Darkvater> ok, that's possible, user-based pathfinding 08:52:35 <KUDr> i don't know what can be done, it is just an idea now 08:52:48 <Darkvater> thus that will require the pathfinder to take ownership into account 08:53:12 <KUDr> we need to talk more about that, but now i must go to work 08:53:17 <KUDr> i am already late 08:53:20 *** Wolfensteijn [n=wolf@a61229.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:44 <Darkvater> :) 08:53:46 <Darkvater> jo munkat 08:53:49 <KUDr> yes, ownership must be evaluated on the beginning from vehicle 08:55:04 <KUDr> jo munkat? 08:56:03 * peter1138 updates past2090 08:56:11 <KUDr> <MeusH> KUDr: what if a company is managed by two players with different pathfinder options? <- dunno - must be designed 08:56:32 <Darkvater> KUDr: your wife was hungarian no? It means 'have a nice day at work' :) 08:56:47 <KUDr> heh 08:56:52 *** Cheery [i=Henri@a81-197-60-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 08:57:24 <MeusH> "Road vehicle queueing (with quantum effects)" - what is quantum effect? 08:57:25 <KUDr> it is not so bad, i am out of service already 08:57:59 * KUDr is going to work 09:03:01 *** Zr40_ [n=Zirconiu@zr40.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:03:43 *** TL|Away is now known as TrueLight 09:15:42 <Celestar> Darkvater: I'll be in Budapest today :) 09:15:49 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: really? 09:15:53 <Celestar> yeah 09:15:58 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: don't you come to Szeged? :) 09:16:03 <Celestar> not that I know of. 09:16:28 <Celestar> does anyone know whether I can go directly from M1 to M3 or do I still have to drive through the city? 09:16:45 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: you have to drive through the city 09:16:54 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: since M0 is far from finished 09:16:55 <Celestar> ok. 09:16:58 <Celestar> will do :) 09:17:03 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: M0 will be the ring around Budapest 09:17:14 <Celestar> MiHaMiX: yes. "will be" sounds awfully like munich. 09:17:33 <Celestar> the A99 WILL be the ring around Munich.. 09:17:35 <Celestar> about 2050 09:17:55 <Celestar> but ok I'll be offline till Monday night. 09:18:06 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: M0 currently ties M1, M5 and M7 09:18:20 <Celestar> yes. 09:18:25 <Celestar> that much I noticed last time :) 09:18:38 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: so if you're coming to Szeged, you don't need to drive through the city, since M5 leads you to Szeged :) 09:18:41 *** Zr40 [n=Zirconiu@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:44 <Celestar> really have to go now. 09:18:51 <Celestar> 1000km to drive to day. 09:19:12 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: where do you go, btw? 09:19:18 <Celestar> Kosice 09:19:22 <Celestar> aka Kassa 09:19:30 <MiHaMiX> ahh 09:19:39 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: what are you doing at Kosice? :) 09:19:42 <Celestar> Tron: I'll be at you university next week, Thursday morning to Friday afternoon. 09:19:48 <Celestar> MiHaMiX: visiting my family. 09:19:53 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: ahh :) 09:19:56 <Celestar> including my 97 year old grandmother. 09:20:02 <Celestar> MiHaMiX: we're 3 people today, so car. 09:20:07 <MiHaMiX> uhh, pretty old :) 09:20:07 <Celestar> when I'm alone, I fly. 09:20:11 <Celestar> takes 2:55h 09:20:19 <Celestar> car ... 11 hours :S 09:20:31 <Celestar> plus more expensive 09:20:31 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: well, driving will take longer than 2:55 :) 09:20:39 <Celestar> (last time my mother payed 250 EUR for speeding) 09:20:47 <Celestar> paid* 09:20:48 <MiHaMiX> but not / person :) 09:20:53 <Celestar> lol no. 09:20:53 <MiHaMiX> ahh, that's not good ;) 09:21:08 * MiHaMiX has never ever been fined because of speeding 09:21:10 <Celestar> but I tried to explain the cop that she through the 120km/h is per person. 09:21:18 <peter1138> hehe 09:21:42 <Celestar> but he didn't buy it. 09:21:46 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: you had a wrong argument 09:21:47 <Celestar> ok 09:21:50 <Celestar> CU next week. 09:22:18 <MiHaMiX> Celestar: you'd have to say: we're using SI as units, and you thought that 70 was m/s :) 09:22:32 <MiHaMiX> and 70m/s ~ 250km/h :) 09:22:33 <MeusH> :DD 09:23:08 <MiHaMiX> 252 km/h :) 09:23:12 <Celestar> ok someone de-op me please 09:23:17 *** Celestar is now known as Celaway 09:23:36 *** mode/#openttd [-o Celaway] by MiHaMiX 09:24:35 <MeusH> MiHaMiX: is TT "hovercraft" true hovercraft? It looks like a... (can't remember english word for this...) http://debki.internet.pl/fotki/wodolot.gif 09:24:36 <Darkvater> Celaway: cool! Hope you have a great time in BP :D 09:25:44 <Darkvater> hmm, great, missed everything 09:30:40 <MiHaMiX> MeusH: I don't know :) 09:33:39 <MeusH> so, from now it will be just like wodolot.gif :) 09:37:39 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 09:38:33 <peter1138> catamaran 09:40:25 <stillunknown> does ottd currently "know" how far trains are apart? 09:42:01 <MeusH> Ships in TT sux 09:42:57 <MeusH> there is no difference between bulk carrier and other cargo ships 09:43:27 <MeusH> no difference if there is coal/ore/grain or livestock/goods/valuables 09:43:32 <MeusH> too bad 09:44:11 <KUDr_wrk> MeusH: what should be different? 09:44:45 <Rexxie> more ships, better docks, different running cost 09:44:59 *** Nubian [n=nubian@mrkvovy.kokotko.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:45:15 <KUDr_wrk> hmm if it is refittable, it should be ok 09:46:51 <stillunknown> would it require an overhaul of ottd to make electric close together slower? 09:46:54 *** Nubian [n=nubian@mrkvovy.kokotko.sk] has joined #openttd 09:47:59 <KUDr_wrk> <stillunknown>: like because they share one power supply? 09:48:16 <stillunknown> yes 09:49:07 <KUDr_wrk> theoretically they should have only slower acceleration, but only when they both/all accelerate at one time 09:49:09 <MeusH> KUDr_wrk - bulk ships can carry not packed materials, like coal 09:49:41 <KUDr_wrk> MeusH: aha, understand - would be good 09:49:48 <MeusH> While the other cargo ships carry packed materials 09:49:52 <MeusH> goods, mail, valuables 09:49:57 <KUDr_wrk> yes 09:50:09 <KUDr_wrk> makes sense 09:50:15 <stillunknown> @Kudr: if you have 5 TGV's in a row, then they will not have the power to fight air friction and such 09:50:23 <MeusH> I encountered it translating ship strings - now I noticed there are no different kinds of ship 09:50:24 <stillunknown> so they will slow down 09:50:32 <MeusH> just one big ship for whatever 09:50:37 <KUDr_wrk> but then the same with trains - bulk wagon, and cargo wagon 09:50:45 <MeusH> yeah 09:50:54 <KUDr_wrk> stillunknown: they will not slow down 09:50:55 *** FauxFaux [n=faux@137.205.210.240] has joined #openttd 09:51:11 *** tokai|noir [n=tokai@p54B83452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:51:16 <jong> stillunknown: it really depends on the type of trains 09:51:19 <KUDr_wrk> stillunknown: it would take them longer to reach the top speed 09:51:28 <jong> KUDr_wrk: no, that is not really true 09:51:50 <jong> KUDr_wrk: once they are at top speed they still usurp large amounts of power 09:51:50 <KUDr_wrk> jong: on plain terrain it is true 09:52:12 <KUDr_wrk> jong: once they reach top speed, they consume nearly nothing 09:52:24 <jong> KUDr_wrk: at top speed all of the energy the train can give will be in friction 09:52:33 <jong> KUDr_wrk: since otherwise the train would be able to go even faster 09:52:49 <stillunknown> once really realistic acceleration is in trunk(physics patches), that problem will mostly be gone 09:52:58 <KUDr_wrk> jong: speed limit is about construction, not about power 09:53:01 *** Scia [n=sciapode@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:53:11 <jong> KUDr_wrk: if that is true, I'll drop my case 09:53:29 <KUDr_wrk> it is true at least in real life 09:53:36 <stillunknown> i was also thinking of high speed running cost penalty for engines (in comparison) have a lot of tractive effor 09:53:37 <stillunknown> t 09:53:48 <stillunknown> because they are mostly freight engines 09:54:08 <stillunknown> who aren't build for high speeds --> more maintanance needed 09:54:17 *** Scia [n=sciapode@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:55:06 <KUDr_wrk> stillunknown: the running cost should be c1 * miles + c2 * power_consumed + c3 * lifetime <---- but it is too complicated 09:55:54 <KUDr_wrk> aha - who is not build for higher speed, can't go faster - safety + construction limits 09:55:58 <jong> (btw, the Netherlands has started as one of the first countries with electrifying the railways, for that reason the voltage on the lines is too low to sustain two locs on one block) 09:56:55 <stillunknown> is a day the smallest timestep ottd internally has? 09:57:29 <KUDr_wrk> jong: in CZ we have 3 kV on most of lines and the same problems - when two trains need to accelerate at one time, another one must help them by slowing down and charging the line 09:57:31 *** jong_ [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 09:57:50 <jong> KUDr_wrk: yeps, same thing here 09:57:54 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has left #openttd [] 09:57:55 <MeusH> stillunknown - the smalles timestep would be one tick 09:58:04 <stillunknown> tick = ? 09:58:12 <MeusH> and there are ~72 ticks per second. But probably I'm wrong, correct me please 09:58:20 <MeusH> most things happen on tick 09:58:40 <jong_> re 09:58:44 <MeusH> like building things, vehicles changing speed, vehicles checking collisions 09:58:53 <stillunknown> day = c1 * tick, c1 = ? 09:59:09 <MeusH> but for typical player, one day is the smallest timestep 09:59:26 <MeusH> c1? 09:59:29 <FauxFaux> Mmm.. collisions.. can't you have trains going opposite directions fast enough to pass through each other? ;) 09:59:31 <stillunknown> a constant 09:59:56 <MeusH> stillunknown: it is being counted by computer 10:00:11 <MeusH> time is being measured differently on different platforms 10:00:26 <MeusH> ask someone wiser for help - OpenTTD uses complex time measurement 10:00:45 *** MeusH is now known as Meush[away] 10:01:56 <peter1138> 74 ticks per day 10:02:04 <peter1138> ~ 33 ticks per second 10:02:34 <stillunknown> i was thinking of using running cost --> 50% is constant maintainence, the remainder is variable, 15-20% if the engine is running (in a station), 100% at recommended maximum speed, and a non-linear curve which depends on engine type (power:tractive effort ratio for example) 10:03:27 <stillunknown> calculated per tick, and the sum of the whole month will be the running cost dis played next month 10:05:23 <stillunknown> but the difficult part of one of my ideas is, can a train determine the amount of blocks the next and the previous train is 10:07:47 <stillunknown> which would make realistic electric train beheaviour possible 10:08:52 *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-233-135.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 10:08:55 <peter1138> and what defines a block? 10:09:25 <Sacro> turnips 10:10:19 <stillunknown> i mean how many track sections away 10:10:35 <peter1138> ... 10:10:39 <peter1138> and what defines a track section? 10:11:19 <stillunknown> the size in which track is laid 10:11:25 <stillunknown> the piece size 10:11:45 *** Zr40_ is now known as Zr40 10:13:05 <stillunknown> or the amount of squares you pass when seeking for the train 10:14:41 *** jong_ [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:19:23 <peter1138> tiles then 10:21:25 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 10:24:50 *** Torrasque [n=jerome@114.123.76.83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 10:26:03 <stillunknown> is anything like that present? (maybe for signals) 10:26:56 *** e1ko [n=31k0@a02-0432c.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #openttd 10:27:58 *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-233-135.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:36:47 *** BJH [n=chatzill@e176098164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 10:44:19 *** TrueLight is now known as TL|Away 10:45:24 <peter1138> no 11:03:08 *** Spoco [n=Spoco@dsl-083-102-071-182.lohjanpuhelin.fi] has joined #openttd 11:20:18 *** tron_ [n=tron@p54A3E1BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:23:51 *** Bjarni [n=Bjarni@0x53588a85.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 11:23:54 *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ 11:42:49 <peter1138> Darkvater: greek / russian... could we provide a method to load an alternate graphics file containing their characters? 11:43:45 <Bjarni> I wondered about that as well 11:44:01 <Bjarni> except I got the idea when I saw the Chinese translation 11:44:07 <peter1138> that too 11:44:37 <peter1138> it's a bit of a hack though 11:44:43 <peter1138> internal utf-8 \o/ 11:44:52 <Bjarni> yeah 11:44:58 <Bjarni> you better start coding :p 11:45:01 <peter1138> :/ 11:45:18 <peter1138> hmm 11:45:31 <peter1138> well, the text rendering doesn't *need* to use sprite ids does it... 11:46:37 <Bjarni> you go wonder about that one. I have to leave now :/ 11:46:43 <peter1138> boo :P 11:47:26 <Bjarni> and I expect at least 90 unread svn commit messages in my inbox when I return 11:48:05 <Bjarni> currently it got 88, which I haven't had time to look at yet 11:48:07 <Bjarni> bye 11:48:10 * Vornicus blings 11:49:13 <peter1138> hmm 11:49:51 <peter1138> We'd need a Sprite object to blit 11:49:56 *** Torrasque [n=jerome@114.123.76.83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:59:50 <peter1138> or just have a separate range for characters 11:59:51 <peter1138> hmm 12:00:27 <peter1138> guess it would need a fontcache system 12:01:08 <peter1138> prerender the common ascii chars and render (into the cache) other chars as needed 12:07:02 *** RoySmeding [n=c1aca9ee@teppic.demon.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:09:23 <MiHaMiX> WT2 supports UTF8 12:09:33 <MiHaMiX> since WT2 stores the strings in UTF8 format internally 12:09:37 <peter1138> hmm 12:09:38 <peter1138> cool 12:09:44 <MiHaMiX> currently it just validates input for iso8859-15 12:09:54 <MiHaMiX> and produces output in iso8859-15 format 12:09:59 <peter1138> good planning though :) 12:09:59 *** RoySmeding [n=c1aca9ee@teppic.demon.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:02 <MiHaMiX> another question: 12:10:13 <MiHaMiX> is lng files plattform independent? 12:10:31 <peter1138> should be 12:10:38 <MiHaMiX> I mean, translators would like to get precompiled lng files from WT2 to test 12:10:52 <peter1138> that would be a nice feature 12:11:22 <MiHaMiX> yes, and I have ideas for other brilliant features :) 12:11:55 <MiHaMiX> peter1138: I managed to fix that error I'd like to ask your help yesterday night, so I'll not disturb you with that problem :) 12:13:28 <MiHaMiX> peter1138: WT2 managed to made firefox fly in a reproducible way 12:13:38 <Vornicus> what is WT2? 12:13:48 <peter1138> web translator 2 12:13:49 <MiHaMiX> #define WT2 "WebTranslator2" 12:13:51 <Vornicus> aah 12:15:20 <MiHaMiX> peter1138: btw, where will STR_UNITS_FORCE_FOOBAR strings used? 12:23:36 <peter1138> they're used within the units system, and only there 12:23:50 <peter1138> tractive effort for trains will use {FORCE} 12:25:05 <peter1138> possibly other stuff 12:25:28 *** Born_Acorn [n=bornacor@ACD6058E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #openttd 12:25:35 <peter1138> but don't tell Born_Acorn 12:26:01 <Born_Acorn> no, don't. 12:26:08 <Born_Acorn> My head might asplode 12:26:34 <Born_Acorn> which is bad in times of war. 12:27:29 <Bjarni> back 12:27:34 <Bjarni> hmm 12:27:39 <Bjarni> Born_Acorn is at war 12:27:55 <Bjarni> did some strange girl peek at you or something? 12:28:30 <Born_Acorn> No. It is a much longer tale of lies, corruption, deceit and destruction. 12:28:47 <Born_Acorn> A strange girl peeked at me. 12:40:30 <Bjarni> well, I once saw an incident where a strange girl/woman did more than peeking at a man. It was in the uni cantina. Some delivery guy showed up with something and said something to one of the staff, which happened to be an African woman. I don't know what because it was not loud. She replied loud and called him something like sweetheart/darling/baby (I'm not really sure how to translate it) and said that he should see more of her or 12:40:30 <Bjarni> something like that. Everybody looked and started laughing and this delivery guy got all confused and turned speechless 12:41:16 <Bjarni> I'm not really sure how I would react to some strange African woman, who said something like that to me out loud ;) 12:41:51 <Bjarni> maybe Born_Acorn is a delivery guy 12:42:56 <Bjarni> actually thinking about it, discard the African thing from the last sentence. I'm not sure how I would react to a woman saying something like that to me, nomatter where she comes from 12:46:07 <Meush[away]> <@peter1138> they're used within the units system, and only there <-- is it already in SVN? 12:46:13 *** Meush[away] is now known as MeusH 12:46:16 <Bjarni> Born_Acorn: some strange woman appeared to show an interest in you, so you declared war on her? 12:46:58 <MeusH> I'd like to translate it but it's better to know what to translate rather than word-by-word straight translating 12:48:09 *** ThePizzaKing [n=thepizza@c211-28-155-182.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["And he disappears, like a fox, in the night."] 12:48:37 *** glx [i=glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 12:51:30 *** Nubian [n=nubian@mrkvovy.kokotko.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:52:18 *** Mukke [n=Mukke@x1-6-00-13-8f-3d-00-a9.k146.webspeed.dk] has joined #openttd 12:53:26 <peter1138> MeusH: force, yes, but not tractive effort 12:53:45 *** Belugas_Gone is now known as Belugas 12:53:51 *** Nubian [n=nubian@mrkvovy.kokotko.sk] has joined #openttd 12:54:18 <Belugas> Good day to you all! 12:55:21 *** SchAmane [n=schamane@p5498E081.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:56:12 <MeusH> peter1138: where is it in-game so I can see it? 12:56:15 <MeusH> hello Belugas! 12:56:29 *** MeusH is now known as Meush[brb] 13:00:22 *** Osai [n=Osai@p54B35AAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:06:17 <hylje> annoying that ai players cant remove their roads 13:09:45 <Born_Acorn> Yes. I declare war on people in the streets at random 13:26:32 <peter1138> Meush[brb]: it isn't yet 13:27:01 <peter1138> so, http://195.112.37.102/ottd/impunits.diff 13:31:45 *** Andrew67 [i=andrew67@206.248.80.224] has joined #openttd 13:33:19 *** Meush[brb] is now known as MeusH 13:33:23 <MeusH> thanks peter1138 13:33:24 *** MeusH is now known as Meush[brb] 13:34:57 *** Meush[brb] is now known as MeusH 13:35:10 <MeusH> what's the difference between IMPERIAL_UK and IMPERIAL? 13:35:56 <peter1138> IMPERIAL matches the original game units 13:36:02 <peter1138> it's a mishmash 13:36:14 <peter1138> imperial for speed, metric for weight & volume etc 13:36:32 <Belugas> Touch and Go MeusH :) Hello again hehe 13:37:56 <MeusH> peter1138: is it planned to remove original "Imperial" measurement, or it will stay? 13:37:58 <MeusH> hey Belugas 13:38:06 <peter1138> MeusH: it'll stay i think 13:38:13 <peter1138> i know i use it :) 13:38:21 *** Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: guru3, pasky 13:38:26 <peter1138> it doesn't really cost us anything 13:38:29 *** Netsplit over, joins: pasky, guru3 13:38:38 <MeusH> that's also right 13:39:09 <MeusH> peter1138: where is the code of road vehicle stopping at the level crossing? 13:39:25 <MeusH> I can't find it anywhere and I think level crossing acts just like a road junction 13:39:35 <MeusH> which is blocked or free 13:40:53 *** e1ko is now known as e1ko_AfK 13:41:31 *** TL|Away is now known as TrueLight 13:41:49 *** XeryusTC [n=irc@217.123.34.28] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:26 *** XeryusTC [n=irc@217.123.34.28] has joined #openttd 13:47:44 *** Paperclip [n=stfu@unaffiliated/paperclip] has joined #openttd 13:50:59 *** Paperclip [n=stfu@unaffiliated/paperclip] has left #openttd ["Leaving"] 13:53:16 <MeusH> peter1138: how's your progress on 2cc? 13:54:16 <MeusH> http://195.112.37.102/ottd/bridge.png WOW it looks awesome! 13:54:36 <MeusH> but... it is based on ugly hacks and will not be committed? 13:57:59 <CIA-3> KUDr * r4409 /branch/yapf/settings.c: 13:57:59 <CIA-3> [YAPF] - don't save _pathes.yapf_type_ships & npf_max_search_nodes (the second is needed now for tunning YAPF) 13:57:59 <CIA-3> - the max value for npf_max_search_nodes increased from 10k to 1M 14:00:01 <KUDr_wrk> <MeusH> http://195.112.37.102/ottd/bridge.png WOW it looks awesome! <-- agree, it looks REALLY NICE 14:03:27 <peter1138> MeusH: no 14:03:33 <peter1138> MeusH: that's tron's work too 14:03:43 <peter1138> MeusH: there will be progress on that soon 14:10:54 <MeusH> yeah, I remember Tron cleanin up bridges :) 14:11:07 <MeusH> And if he is doing something this is certainly not a hack :D 14:11:40 <MeusH> TTDP will be totally ruled, soon 14:21:38 *** Tobin [n=Tobin@c211-28-197-129.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [] 14:36:18 <glx> KUDr_wrk: pathfinder settings need to be saved for network games 14:39:12 *** Mackay [i=crazedsc@81-178-111-40.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 14:39:18 *** stavrosg [n=stavrosg@athedsl-19769.otenet.gr] has joined #OpenTTD 14:39:38 <Mackay> does anyone know if co-op multiplayer's possible? 14:42:27 <hylje> yes 14:42:58 <KUDr_wrk> [16:38:18] <glx> KUDr_wrk: pathfinder settings need to be saved for network games <-- I know, but i am not sure it there is no other solution than save it also in savegames - i need to test it with different settings on one savegame. This was not possible 14:44:08 <glx> only savegame is transfered for network games 14:44:36 <Mackay> awesome 14:44:37 <KUDr_wrk> but i can send some commands or so 14:44:39 <Mackay> cheers 14:44:44 <KUDr_wrk> will solve it later 14:44:57 <glx> yeah for now debug locally :) 14:45:31 <KUDr_wrk> i debug locally but not on one pc only 14:45:50 <glx> but not in mutliplayer mode 14:45:54 <KUDr_wrk> and with saved values nobody can play with such values 14:46:07 <KUDr_wrk> OK, do you know how? 14:46:09 *** tamlin [n=tamlin@143.18.227.87.ehn.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #OpenTTD 14:47:03 <KUDr_wrk> glx: later it will be property of company/player 14:47:13 <KUDr_wrk> and you can change it during gameplay 14:47:23 <KUDr_wrk> so it must be synced by different way 14:47:38 <glx> will be hard to do, but why not :) 14:48:01 <KUDr_wrk> no ide how difficult it will be to distribute such info 14:48:29 <KUDr_wrk> but YAPF is ready to be per-company or per-vehicle or per-station.... 14:54:19 *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@85.106.142.233] has joined #openttd 14:58:35 * jnmbk is looking forward to login webtranslator2... 15:09:29 <izhirahider> same here 15:14:16 <peter1138> KUDr_wrk: you need to implement commands to send that information 15:14:55 <peter1138> however 15:15:03 <peter1138> if you want it per vehicle/station 15:15:06 *** WolfLaptop [n=wolf@213.196.14.87] has quit ["( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de )"] 15:15:11 <peter1138> you might want to consider adding the choice to the orders system 15:15:17 <peter1138> dunno how easy/hard that would be 15:15:47 <peter1138> hmm, switching modes would then require updating all the orders 15:16:00 <peter1138> is this level of control really needed? heh 15:18:08 *** dp__ [n=dp@p54B2F148.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:22:36 *** wolf^ [i=wolf@pld-linux/wolf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:38 *** RoySmeding [n=Roy@c514451cb.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:24:08 <tamlin> peter1138: What exactly is this "mode" that would have to modify all existing orders? 15:24:19 <peter1138> pathfinding 15:24:40 *** tokai|noir [n=tokai@p54B83452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["It's like, wah."] 15:24:45 <MeusH> why would it need to change orders? 15:25:23 <peter1138> dunno 15:25:32 *** tokai|noir [n=tokai@p54B83452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:28:27 <tamlin> Could you check into it - to see if it really needs this, or if its simply (as I think) more a matter of resetting pathfinding for all vehicles before changing pathfinding algo? 15:29:57 <tamlin> Perhaps there are even a few bits in each vehicle to spare, to tell what path-finding algo they are currently using? That could remove the need to run through all vehicles and reset them (even if it's only a few thousand clock cycles). 15:31:01 <peter1138> personally i'd have one pathfinding method and stick to it 15:31:14 <MeusH> that's right peter1138 15:31:21 <MeusH> I'm with yapf and nothing else 15:31:28 <tamlin> Obviously - but as it's still in flux... 15:31:30 <peter1138> could be different method for ship/train/plane./.. 15:31:57 <MeusH> developers should take care of one pathfinder, not dozens different pathfinders 15:32:09 *** Richk67 [n=RichK67@194.164.100.143] has joined #openttd 15:32:44 <Richk67> hi all 15:33:46 <Richk67> peter1138: ping 15:33:50 <peter1138> MeusH: yeah 15:33:51 <peter1138> pong 15:34:21 <Richk67> hi - im trying to update an old patch, and a function has been removed... any idea what it has been replaced by?? 15:34:22 <Richk67> x += _railbit.xinc[trackdir]; 15:34:22 <Richk67> y += _railbit.yinc[trackdir]; 15:34:41 <tamlin> MeusH: While I agree, I also recognize the need to be able to test different algo's. One way could be to simply reset all found paths for all vehicles when switching. Perhaps iterating all vehicles affected indeed is the cleanest way. 15:34:47 <glx> Richk67: which file? 15:35:58 <Richk67> this is a call from the signal autocompletion patch, in rail_cmd.c... but the code for _railbit isnt in the patch, so i guess its one that has been updated in rail_map.h, or rail.h but i cant work out what it is 15:36:18 <MeusH> tamlin: it is allright with various pathfinders only if there are enough developers to provide steady, but continous support 15:36:38 <MeusH> however, currently there are only a few developers contributing sometimes to the pathfinders 15:36:39 <glx> Richk67: I think it's a recent Celestar's change 15:37:25 <peter1138> Richk67: no 15:37:27 <Richk67> lol - well recent as in since 3464 ;) 15:37:33 <peter1138> no idea 15:37:40 <peter1138> celestar/tron have been doing all that 15:37:52 <tamlin> MeusH: OK, then I think it's better to just iterate all vehicles and invalidate any and all found paths they have, when switching path-finding algo. 15:38:16 <Richk67> im guessing it simply is a crosstable of +1/0/-1 for x and y depending on what track direction is 15:40:31 <tamlin> Considering the name x/yinc, I'd say it'd verge on malice if that wasn't the case. :-) 15:41:22 <Richk67> yup 15:41:42 <tamlin> Richk67: Could this be not be found by submitting the target to path finding and just checking the path returned now? (seems logical from where I stand) 15:41:47 <MeusH> tamlin: that's good idea, but some people here may argue that this may kill older computers 15:42:06 <MeusH> Darkvater: How's the donation thingy and buying the PDA? 15:42:12 *** dp-- [n=dp@p54B2DE4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:14 <MeusH> or any other PocketPC? 15:42:17 *** dp__ is now known as dp-- 15:42:49 <tamlin> MeusH: Not a chance! We're not switching path-finfind algo twice a second, are we? This surely must be a developer thing - to test different algo's, no? 15:43:44 <MeusH> yes 15:43:50 <glx> Richk67: r4344 15:44:12 <MeusH> but someone here wrote an idea of vehicles with different pathfinders at once 15:44:32 <MeusH> would it mean changing pathfinder once a while? 15:44:40 <MeusH> Oh, RichK67: when is your IN coming along? 15:44:53 <stillunknown> uint i = FindFirstBit2x64(GetTrackBits(tile) * 0x101 & _reachable_tracks[dir]); <-- can this be range limited (i'm looking for ways to make (electric) trains are too close to another electric train and this is used to determine signal state)? 15:46:29 <stillunknown> *trains know that they are 15:46:55 <tamlin> MeusH: OK, if different vehicles are to be able to have different path-finding algo's, then indeed every single vehicle also need to know what algo it's currently using. Is there a byte that could be added for vehicles here? Mind you, I'm not convinced this is really optimal, or even if it can not be solved simply by vehicles _class_ (train, bus, ...). 15:47:09 <Richk67> signal gui has messed me up a bit... quite a few errors, and proving hard to resolve 15:47:58 <tamlin> Richk67: Please elaborate. 15:48:17 <tamlin> (I've been away for quite some time why I'd like to know what's been going on) 15:49:52 <Richk67> elaborate on what? why sig gui doesnt compile? or about the IN? 15:52:43 <Richk67> glx: thanks... 4344 showed it had been replaced by _trackdelta[dir].x passes that bit... now for next error (last) 15:56:30 <stillunknown> static const uint32 _reachable_tracks[4] = { 15:56:30 <stillunknown> 0x10091009, 15:56:30 <stillunknown> 0x00160016, 15:56:30 <stillunknown> 0x05200520, 15:56:30 <stillunknown> 0x2A002A00, 15:56:31 <stillunknown> }; <-- how can there only be 4 entries when there are six directions (the function gets called with the direction argument)? 15:57:49 <peter1138> there are only 4 exit directions 15:57:51 <peter1138> might be that? 15:59:42 <blathijs> yes 15:59:42 <blathijs> yist htath 15:59:53 <blathijs> yipes 16:00:02 <stillunknown> i can end a with a piece of track in any of the 6 directions 16:00:06 *** SchAmane [n=schamane@p5498E081.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ciao"] 16:00:13 <blathijs> dodgy ssh connection 16:00:13 <blathijs> I meant "it's that" 16:00:24 <peter1138> :) 16:00:40 <Richk67> still: but those 6 directions can only leave the tile by its 4 edges 16:01:11 <stillunknown> i'm such a newbie :-) 16:01:28 *** wolf^_ [i=wolf@rev2.kamp.pl] has joined #openttd 16:02:20 <blathijs> Richk67: though that is the very thing causing those nasty 90 degree turns in tracks :-) 16:03:07 *** wolf^_ is now known as wolf^ 16:03:22 <tamlin> Those aren't nasty, they are required to not have my trains make 200+ tiles detours. ;-) 16:03:37 <blathijs> They are ugly 16:03:39 <blathijs> IMHO ;-) 16:03:42 <tamlin> I agree. 16:04:39 <tamlin> I also think a train on its way to service depot should change its mind if it's about to pass another (player-owned) depot. I don't know, maybe that's already implemented. 16:04:39 <blathijs> The ugliest part is that those corners can be taken, but corners in the middle of a tile (ie crossing straight tracks) can not 16:04:41 <Richk67> great... auto completion compiles now... but doesnt work :( bah! i hate trying to update patches :( 16:05:12 <blathijs> tamlin: train servicing is kinda broken by desing IMO 16:05:20 <blathijs> Richk67: autocompletion? 16:05:31 <tamlin> Richk67: If you like the patch enough, just rollback your whole tree to the date the patch was created. 16:05:39 <Richk67> signal gui ... 16:06:08 *** SchAmane [n=schamane@p5498E081.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:07:05 *** SchAmane [n=schamane@p5498E081.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:31 <glx> blathijs: did you check NPFReverse? 16:09:33 <tamlin> I personally think it seems worth the effort, if it's what I think it is (a real GUI, a dialog or something, instead of just CTRL+clicking and hoping one remembers what all the signal types are). 16:10:09 <MeusH> be right back 16:10:10 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has quit ["Goodbye"] 16:11:58 *** SchAmane [n=schamane@p5498E081.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:12:13 *** wolf^ [i=wolf@rev2.kamp.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:12:32 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has joined #openttd 16:12:46 <MeusH> back 16:16:13 *** wolf^ [i=wolf@rev2.kamp.pl] has joined #openttd 16:31:24 <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: ping 16:31:30 <MeusH> MiHaMiX: hey 16:31:37 <MeusH> have you read PM? 16:32:02 <MeusH> s/PM/priv 16:33:03 <MiHaMiX> MeusH: yes, but you didn't wrote a single line 16:33:10 *** RoySmeding [n=Roy@c514451cb.cable.wanadoo.nl] has quit ["kthxbye"] 16:33:17 <MiHaMiX> MeusH: maybe you forgot to register? 16:33:25 <MeusH> oh 16:33:26 <MeusH> my 16:33:28 <MeusH> FUCK 16:33:57 * MeusH 's head dropped on keyboard and wrote some weird stuff 16:34:11 <MiHaMiX> /kick MeusH Don't swear 16:34:18 <MiHaMiX> :D 16:34:32 *** Wolfensteijn [n=wolf@a61229.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 16:34:44 <MeusH> \kick NickServ you puny bastard 16:34:54 <MeusH> w8 16:35:00 <MeusH> I hope it got logged 16:35:03 * MiHaMiX is waiting... 16:35:06 <MeusH> now, let me find logs directory 16:35:49 <MiHaMiX> bbl, dinner 16:36:19 <MeusH> ok 16:36:59 <MeusH> I sent you that thing 16:37:04 <MeusH> wait... I did not register again :##&^@%X 16:38:10 *** AciD [n=gni@tehpwnz.org] has joined #openttd 16:38:57 <MeusH> my superb auto nickserv logger works just fine --___-- 16:39:39 <Richk67> semi-success... auto completion works, but not in the "drag-direction"... does anyone know if that is how it is meant to work? 16:42:30 *** sw4y [n=sw4y@snat2.arachne.czfree.net] has joined #openttd 16:46:39 <MeusH> so it autocompletes in all directions except desidered one? 16:47:31 <Richk67> no - it always picks a default direction for next signal... on horiz track, its always to right 16:49:06 <Richk67> i dont know whether this is the "correct" behaviour, or a bug 16:49:42 <tamlin> Seems like a bug, especially if [0] == "to right". 16:50:13 <Richk67> it depends what the original patch did when it was working 16:54:35 *** Scia [n=sciapode@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:22 <MeusH> RichK67: take a look at autorail tool 16:56:39 <MeusH> I've had to struggle that direction things with my tooltip patch 16:56:45 <stillunknown> uint i = FindFirstBit2x64(GetTrackBits(tile) * 0x101 & _reachable_tracks[dir]); <-- how can this "scan" more than one tile if only the current tile is given as input? 16:57:46 <Richk67> MeusH: im of a mind to ditch it. ive enough potential bugs in IN anyway, without trying to fix other's patches 16:58:54 *** test [n=test@host208-77.pool8252.interbusiness.it] has joined #openttd 16:59:01 <test> hey 16:59:29 <test> Dark I have received your mail 17:01:18 *** Scia [n=sciapode@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:01:32 *** Sionide [n=sphinx@cpc4-hem12-0-0-cust246.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["/quit"] 17:01:44 <stillunknown> ignore my question, something else does what i think it did 17:02:21 <Richk67> brb 17:04:34 <stillunknown> UpdateSignalsOnSegment <-- i've searched, but am unable to find this function, anyone know where it could be? 17:06:38 *** Born_Acorn [n=bornacor@ACD6058E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:00 <tamlin> stillunknown: From a patch? Have you looked through the whole patch? 17:07:02 *** tomahawk [n=tomahawk@abtj173.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 17:07:36 <stillunknown> in my search i didn't realize that bool UpdateSignalsOnSegment meant it was a function decleration 17:11:00 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:28 <KUDr> peter1138: ping 17:11:56 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 17:12:53 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:09 <KUDr> <peter1138> is this level of control really needed? heh <--- dunno, i only don't want to implement there any limitations, so the morale lifetime of YAPF can be as long as possible 17:13:15 *** sw4y [n=sw4y@snat2.arachne.czfree.net] has quit ["Odletam do paralelniho vesmiru..."] 17:13:33 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 17:14:51 <glx> stillunknown: the function you are looking for is in train_cmd.c 17:15:08 <stillunknown> does trackbits(any specs anywere) store what type or what train is on the track? 17:15:51 <stillunknown> i found what i really need, something to follow track, now to find a way to get the right information out of it :-) 17:15:58 <KUDr> stillunknown: afaik no, there was some hash container for that 17:18:09 <stillunknown> where could i possible get information about a train with only the tile as information? 17:19:17 <glx> VehicleFromPos I guess 17:20:46 <KUDr> probably. There is some global hash: _vehicle_position_hash 17:21:14 <KUDr> Yes, VehicleFromPos() 17:21:40 <stillunknown> now to look for a way to get the state of a tracktile 17:21:46 <KUDr> but it can also wagon i guess 17:21:59 <KUDr> state? 17:22:00 <glx> yes can be a wagon 17:22:32 <stillunknown> Can i differentiate between locs and trains as a whole? 17:23:42 <KUDr> IsFrontEngine() or look to power 17:23:43 <Vornicus> "locs"? 17:24:29 <KUDr> stillunknown: I have probably better idea how to implement your patch 17:24:46 <Vornicus> locomotives and non-locomotives in this game are differentiated only by their power. 17:25:06 <glx> no there's a sub-type too 17:25:11 <stillunknown> short for locomotives 17:25:28 <KUDr> 1) user would be able to use elrail locos aonly wne he delivers coal to power station 17:26:03 <KUDr> 2) nearest power station can remember how much coal was delivered by the player 17:26:26 <KUDr> 3) if no such power station, then acceleration will be like half 17:26:53 <blathijs> glx: no, I ran out of time... 17:27:10 <stillunknown> that's a nice addon, but i really want to do it 17:27:39 <glx> blathijs: btw there's currently a small conflict in it and I found a little error in my code 17:27:40 <stillunknown> it would make for very interresting gameplay (imo) 17:27:59 *** test [n=test@host208-77.pool8252.interbusiness.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:28:08 <KUDr> stillunknown: but if you do it as I described, you don't need to look for nearby trains -> no performance hit 17:28:46 <KUDr> it is not easy to ask for all nearby tracks if there is train or not 17:29:03 <stillunknown> even if you haul 5000 tons of coal to a station, you're not going get several electric locomotives together in a short piece of track 17:29:16 <KUDr> so u can use power station as shared storage for all nearby trains 17:29:18 *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@85.106.142.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:18 <stillunknown> my holiday just started and i want to try something 17:29:45 <KUDr> ok 17:30:25 <stillunknown> also ones functions like this exist, it could potentially make for more nice addons 17:30:39 <stillunknown> like variable speeds based on distance of next train 17:30:59 <stillunknown> *also once functions 17:31:01 <KUDr> but it will be very slow 17:31:19 <stillunknown> not if you limit the amount of tiles it scans 17:31:21 <KUDr> its wasting of CPU 17:31:49 <stillunknown> but i will see how (un)efficient it is 17:31:56 <KUDr> but in rel life it depends on placement of trafo stations 17:32:09 <KUDr> not only on nearby trains 17:32:27 <stillunknown> true, but i have to start somewhere 17:32:41 <stillunknown> and some recognition of nearby trains is needed 17:32:45 <KUDr> so make new facility - trafo 17:32:53 <KUDr> and store power info there 17:32:59 <KUDr> it should be easier 17:33:09 <KUDr> and not so CPU consuming 17:33:35 <CIA-3> miham * r4410 /trunk/lang/ (french.txt hungarian.txt polish.txt): 17:33:35 <CIA-3> WebTranslator2 daily commit [2006-04-13] 17:33:35 <CIA-3> [hungarian] 6 strings changed by Miham 17:33:35 <CIA-3> [french] 21 strings changed by Belugas 17:33:35 <CIA-3> [polish] 151 strings changed, 8 strings fixed by Meush 17:33:36 <KUDr> or power station 17:33:47 <stillunknown> like a waypoint with a limited range that a train passes through and takes power from until it finds the next one? 17:33:58 <KUDr> maybe 17:34:19 <KUDr> or you must build power station nearby tracks to use maximum power 17:34:27 <KUDr> otherwise half 17:34:30 <KUDr> or so 17:34:58 <KUDr> it is simple and users will understand it 17:35:08 <KUDr> and can influence it 17:35:21 <KUDr> by building power stations 17:35:29 <KUDr> and feeding them 17:35:49 <stillunknown> realastic would be to have a trafo that can supply an x amount of power, maybe more if power station is near and devide that amongst the trains in the section 17:35:57 <KUDr> now the power station doesn't produce any usefull goods 17:36:08 <stillunknown> maybe even make power less as distance is greater 17:36:18 <KUDr> yes 17:36:43 * stillunknown is hoping trains are numbered 17:36:57 <KUDr> you can start with special waypoint type and then ask others to make newgrf for new facility 17:38:01 <KUDr> index is internal id, and unitnumber is what you see 17:38:26 <stillunknown> how am i going to deal with trains leaving the depot, they didn't pass a trafo 17:38:50 <KUDr> don't count passed trafos 17:38:56 <KUDr> look for nearest one 17:39:18 <KUDr> make container for trafos 17:39:38 <KUDr> and look for nearest - the same like cell phone does 17:39:47 <stillunknown> two things that i defininately don't know 17:40:01 <stillunknown> howto look for nearest efficiently 17:40:12 <stillunknown> what is a container in this example? 17:41:12 <KUDr> ah, make the hash for like supertile (16 x 16 tiles) and store trafos in that supertile as a list 17:41:29 <KUDr> then you need to visit max. 9 supertiles 17:41:43 <KUDr> this should work fine 17:41:46 <KUDr> and fast enough 17:42:06 <KUDr> but you should isolate such container by an interface 17:42:16 <KUDr> so you can remake it later 17:42:39 * stillunknown hopes anyone has used these supertiles, because this is all unknown to me 17:42:54 <KUDr> it is easy 17:43:02 <stillunknown> basicly search for 16x16 tiles with the train in the centre? 17:43:28 <KUDr> x = TileX(tile) & ~0x0F 17:43:35 <KUDr> y = TileY(tile) & ~0x0F 17:43:47 <KUDr> and you have super tile coords 17:44:03 <KUDr> then combine x and y to hash 17:44:21 <KUDr> and use existing hash container in queue.c 17:44:33 <tamlin> This should really be handled by C++ I think, and a supertile being created on-the-fly from requested coords. 17:44:38 <KUDr> one global variable for it 17:44:41 <stillunknown> what is ~15? 17:44:48 <tamlin> 0xf 17:45:01 <stillunknown> what does it mean 17:45:02 <tamlin> Think binary. 17:45:06 <stillunknown> i know it's 15 17:45:10 <stillunknown> it's hex 17:45:11 <tamlin> 0x0f = 17:45:19 <KUDr> you reset lowest 4 bits 17:45:35 <tamlin> = ~0xf0 17:45:36 <KUDr> or better could be x = TileX(tile) >> 4 17:45:55 <KUDr> then you discard those bits 17:46:20 <tamlin> It's simple bit-"magic". :-) 17:46:29 <KUDr> no magic 17:46:32 <KUDr> its easy 17:46:39 *** stavrosg [n=stavrosg@athedsl-19769.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:45 <tamlin> I know, but for someone not knowing it it's "magic". 17:46:47 <stillunknown> you want the first 15 bits gone? 17:46:56 <stillunknown> 15 options i mean 17:47:11 <KUDr> yes, you make 16x16 supertiles by this 17:47:32 <stillunknown> what does TileX output? 17:47:36 <KUDr> and you only need to know how to use that Hash 17:47:41 <KUDr> but it is easy 17:48:06 <KUDr> uint TileX() - gives tile's X coord 17:48:27 <stillunknown> doesn't that make for huge supertiles? 17:48:33 <stillunknown> imagine a x coord of 300 17:48:35 <KUDr> no 17:48:37 <KUDr> for tiles 17:48:44 <tamlin> Basically, it caould be a simple as using an ubyte's upper 4 bits for y, and lower 4 bits as x. 17:48:57 <tamlin> 0-15 each 17:48:58 <KUDr> but if you >> 4 on it, you have supertile 16x16 17:49:12 <KUDr> it you do >> 5 you have supertile 32x32 17:49:14 <KUDr> and so on 17:49:19 <stillunknown> 256 >> 4 = 32 17:49:29 <KUDr> :) 17:49:35 <stillunknown> i don't see how a random input leads to a supertile? 17:49:46 <MiHaMiX> peter1138: are you still around? 17:49:49 <KUDr> but 16 different values will give you 1 same value 17:49:54 <tamlin> The input isn't random. 17:50:09 <stillunknown> aha 17:50:33 <KUDr> input is tile 17:50:35 <stillunknown> so i pass through every tile in the game to that? 17:50:43 <KUDr> and it has X and Y coords 17:50:50 <KUDr> they are not random 17:51:01 <KUDr> no 17:51:09 <KUDr> only engine tile 17:51:23 <KUDr> and you find nearest trafos 17:51:46 <stillunknown> i still need to compare it to other tiles with that hash 17:51:52 *** Red78 [n=Red@81-86-117-11.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 17:51:55 <stillunknown> so how do i do that in a sensible way 17:52:00 <KUDr> no, you don't 17:52:25 <KUDr> in that supertile hash u will store the list of trafor in that supertile 17:53:01 <KUDr> in that trafo you will store what trains are powered by it 17:53:24 <tamlin> I could add another mathematical array traversing thing here, should we ever need to traverse more tiles than there are memory... :-) 17:53:30 <KUDr> so all nearby trains will share the nearest trafo 17:53:50 <stillunknown> don't i still have to have to determine the hash of the nearby tiles, otherwise i will never find out which tiles have a trafo 17:54:05 <stillunknown> and have to exclude nearby unconnected tracks 17:54:24 <KUDr> no, the trafo position will be stred in Trafo structure 17:54:38 <KUDr> Trafo structure will be item in the List 17:54:42 <stillunknown> let's say i have a hash for my train tile 17:54:47 <KUDr> List is item in the Hash 17:54:53 <stillunknown> that does me no good 17:55:08 <stillunknown> because i would still have to convert that somehow to useable information 17:55:12 <KUDr> so by tile of engine you determine which List is appropriate 17:55:27 <KUDr> and in that List you find what Trafo is there 17:55:45 <stillunknown> which would require using the hash to generate all tile info? 17:55:57 <KUDr> no 17:56:00 <KUDr> uhh 17:56:08 <KUDr> Hash is container here 17:56:12 <KUDr> not a function 17:56:13 <stillunknown> or is everything ingame stored in hashes? 17:56:18 <tamlin> I'd also like to add there _are_ no hashes involved here AFAIK. All is directly, i.e. O(1), adressable. 17:56:51 *** DJ_Mirage [n=djmirage@biggetje.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:56:53 <stillunknown> the only way i know would have the coordinates and check every tile if it contains a generator 17:57:06 <KUDr> no 17:57:15 <KUDr> only 9 supertiles 17:57:23 <KUDr> it is much much faster 17:57:37 <stillunknown> you mean store every generator by it's hash 17:57:55 <stillunknown> smart :-) 17:58:00 <KUDr> every generator has its coords X and Y 17:58:34 <stillunknown> but still that would mean every game has 16384 supertiles at most 17:58:36 <KUDr> you can stre that generator by hash_function(X >> 4 ^ Y >> 4) 17:58:37 <stillunknown> not 9 17:58:50 <KUDr> so you have resolution 16x16 tiles 17:59:15 <tamlin> KUDr: Uhhh, you might want to ckeck your parenthesis. :-) 17:59:35 <glx> tamlin: no precedence is ok 18:00:08 <KUDr> ok, so hash_function((X >> 4) ^ (Y >> 4)) 18:00:10 <stillunknown> it's a xor that would return 0 if the right tile is chosen 18:00:46 <stillunknown> or does the ^ have more meanings? 18:00:53 <tamlin> glx: Might be, but I still think such an expression deserves parens to _really_ display what's intended. Remember, it's 10 yers down the road maintenance starts getting hairy. 18:00:58 <KUDr> the xor ^ should be replaced by somethin more sophisticated 18:01:34 <KUDr> hash_function(((X >> 4) << 16) | (Y >> 4)) 18:01:40 <KUDr> or so 18:02:21 *** e1ko_AfK is now known as e1ko 18:02:34 <KUDr> then you have to search in 9 tiles 18:02:36 <tamlin> That looks like a Morton thing. 18:02:42 <KUDr> *supertiles 18:02:42 * stillunknown is confused about what this outputs and what the << 16 does 18:02:59 <KUDr> 1 is yours (where engine is) 18:03:06 <KUDr> and 8 neighbors 18:03:29 <KUDr> it makes no sense took elsewhere as it would be too far away 18:03:53 <stillunknown> could you explain that function as if i knew only logic and no syntax? 18:04:36 <tamlin> Think of it as a scaled "clock" with 8 directions. 18:04:51 *** _Red [n=Red@81-86-117-11.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:04:57 <stillunknown> variables are passed, X and Y, they are bitshifted to create hashes of the tile 18:04:57 <KUDr> you take X, ignore 4 lowest bits from it and combine it with Y (ignoring lowest 4 bits too) 18:05:10 <stillunknown> but the << 16? 18:05:25 <tamlin> Foreget about that for now. 18:05:29 <KUDr> it makes 32 bit number from it 18:05:45 <KUDr> and hash function will combine all bits somehow 18:06:09 <stillunknown> | implies a sum? 18:06:24 <tamlin> No. Bitwise OR. 18:06:24 <KUDr> or instead of << 16 could be like << MapMaxY() 18:07:00 <KUDr> oops 18:07:15 <KUDr> or instead of << 16 could be like << NumberOfBits(MapMaxY()) 18:07:19 <KUDr> so 18:07:45 <stillunknown> as far as i understand you devide the map into 16x16 tiles, of which many can fit into a map, much more than 9 18:07:47 <KUDr> there is something like that but for MapMaxX 18:07:56 <KUDr> so u can use that 18:08:28 <tamlin> I think it's easier to explain like a clock with 8 positions. 0 is straight up. 1 is up-right. 2 = right. 4 = down. 6 = left... 18:08:40 <tamlin> It's the same idea. 18:09:09 <KUDr> <stillunknown> as far as i understand you devide the map into 16x16 tiles, of which many can fit into a map, much more than 9 <-- i really don't understand 18:09:30 <KUDr> tamlin: yes 18:09:32 <stillunknown> a supertile is 16x16 tiles 18:09:37 <KUDr> yes 18:09:49 <stillunknown> 9 super tiles implies a very small map 18:10:02 <KUDr> small part of map 18:10:04 <KUDr> yes 18:10:34 <KUDr> i assume that max trafo distance that makes any sense is 16 tiles 18:10:46 <stillunknown> but isn't it easier to store the hash for every trafo in an array 18:10:51 <tamlin> 16 is better to use, as it's 4 bits - a nybble. There is no power-of-two for 3. 18:10:53 <KUDr> if not, then extend it to 32x32 18:11:05 <stillunknown> then look if there is a trafo with the same hash as the train 18:12:09 <KUDr> <stillunknown> but isn't it easier to store the hash for every trafo in an array <-- hmm, hash is something what is used as index into array 18:12:20 <KUDr> so you don't need to do linear search 18:12:43 <KUDr> you access it directly 18:12:58 <KUDr> this is the magic of hashmap 18:13:08 <KUDr> which is called Hash in ottd 18:14:00 <stillunknown> on a 2048x2048 there are 128 x hashes possible and 128 y hashes 18:14:34 <KUDr> only 128x128 possible x,y coordinates 18:14:36 <stillunknown> how can they be stored by anything more efficient than the hash itself (which is an integer starting at 1) 18:14:48 <Vornicus> A "hash map" generally refers to a method of storing objects in bins by a semi-unique identifier. 18:14:50 <KUDr> but number of hashes is on you 18:15:18 <tamlin> A hash usually is a function of the data stored, often then modulo a prime to decide what bucket to put the data in. I think what you here call hash isn't has, but really an application of an array compression (or something) algo. Am I wrong? 18:15:39 <Vornicus> a hash for an object must be equal for all objects that compare equally and should be (but doesn't have to be) unequal for unequal objects. 18:16:08 <stillunknown> you only used the 9 supertiles only to know what is near and what is further away? 18:16:19 <KUDr> heh, try to explain him it in some simpler way 18:16:30 <Vornicus> Then you store objects in an array of bins (usually you have a prime number of bins, to minimize chunkiness) according to their hash number % the number of bins in the array. 18:17:05 <KUDr> brb 18:17:23 <Vornicus> So then when you go looking for a particular object, you figure out its hash number, then figure out what bin that hash number goes into, then iterate through the objects in that bin, comparing each object therein to the target. 18:17:38 <tamlin> Right. That's not what's used here, I'm quite certain. 18:18:17 <tamlin> Here we have an array that is simply indexed by reduced-precision x/y (e.g. >>4). AFAIK. I could be wrong. 18:18:20 <stillunknown> so basicly a filer which stores under a number which in some way can be related to input? 18:18:41 <Vornicus> Essentially, yeah. 18:18:56 <stillunknown> is there a sensible way to store all this information? 18:19:19 <tamlin> Absolutely. In fact, there are many ways. That's what makes it hard. :-) 18:19:58 <Vornicus> the hash code of an object can be stored but probably shouldn't be; the hash function should be fast, because it's used extremely often. 18:20:09 *** Osai [n=Osai@p54B35AAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [] 18:20:24 <stillunknown> an array is useless unless i can number each transformer 18:20:55 <Vornicus> an array gives a natural numbering to whatever objects are stored therein. The problem is that the objects themselves don't know their number. 18:21:10 <tamlin> stillunknown: Each element already has a "number" - their index. Their position in the array is _also_ a data arrier. 18:21:27 <tamlin> *carrier 18:21:50 <stillunknown> let's say i have two hashes, 32 and 64, where can i store them that would allow another entry with 32 and 64? 18:22:26 <Vornicus> Each item in the hash array is a bin - it can hold any number of objects. 18:23:37 <tamlin> Basically each "bucket" is a set - that usually is searched lineraly! 18:23:48 <Vornicus> yep. 18:23:54 <tamlin> That's why the number of buckets usually is a prime. 18:24:05 <KUDr> stillunknown: take it easy: hash map works as an array - you give it x, y coords of supertile and it return you your Supertile struct 18:24:30 <KUDr> but it stores Supertiles in more efficient way than array 18:24:34 <Vornicus> The reason hashmaps are so common is because they're capable of being implemented on things that you can't compare to each other. 18:24:50 <tamlin> KUDr: We're talking about how a hash set works generally. Not in OpenTTD. :-) 18:24:58 <KUDr> ok 18:26:00 <stillunknown> is there an easy way of expanding structs or does a hash map accept multiple structs to store? 18:26:23 <tamlin> Vornicus: We also shouldn't fail to mention the reason they *really* has become used is due to Java including them. Had Java not included has containers, still only people like us would know the names (byt then, we also know what they mean). :-) 18:26:38 <Vornicus> heh. 18:26:40 <Vornicus> point there. 18:28:03 <tron_> quit 18:28:05 *** tron_ [n=tron@p54A3E1BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:28:11 <tamlin> stillunknown: Yes: A has container by desinition needs to support "colliding" hash values for elements. That's why it needs "buckets" to lineraly search through - to find the exact match when there is a hash collision. GPERF is another matter though. ;-) 18:29:37 <stillunknown> maybe a good example of hash map in openttd, so i can "reverse engineer" the beheaviour 18:29:59 <KUDr> VehicleFromPos 18:31:35 <tamlin> Every supertile is a "bucket", where many vehicles can be at once. 18:32:14 <stillunknown> void *VehicleFromPos(TileIndex tile, void *data, VehicleFromPosProc *proc); 18:32:27 <stillunknown> what is input, what is output? 18:32:34 *** dp__ [n=dp@p54B2DB72.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:32:48 <KUDr> input is tile 18:33:01 <KUDr> output is Vehicle* 18:33:21 <stillunknown> how do you know that? 18:33:30 <stillunknown> Vehicle* 18:33:37 <KUDr> look how it is used 18:33:41 <tamlin> You don't. The code is "bad". 18:33:57 <Richk67> its C - its like that 18:34:05 <tamlin> That function is really, truly, not possible to understand from its declaration. 18:34:44 <tamlin> It's in part an inherent trait of C, as Richk67 notes. 18:34:58 <stillunknown> void *HashStorage(X_hash,Y_hash) <-- what am i missing herr? 18:35:01 <Richk67> depends how familiar you are with OTTD functions... TileIndex tile is 99% of time input, name of function makes it obvious it will return Vehicle 18:35:15 <KUDr> input = tile and track 18:35:55 <tamlin> Richk67: I wrote that from a wider perspective - to being able to look at a function prototype (declaration) to know what it does. 18:36:30 <tamlin> Richk67: I didn't say it to put any dubts on OpenTTD. 18:36:44 * stillunknown doesn't know what the difference between input and output in such a decleration is 18:37:16 <Richk67> at least it doesnt say: void *vfp (Ti t, void *d, vfp_proc *proc).... which would be *really* impossible to understand 18:37:20 <Vornicus> the trick with C is that often when you need a lot of output from a function you will pass it a pointer and then the function will dump its actual output to the pointer 18:37:52 <tamlin> Richk67: Sounds like something you recently encountered at work? ;-) 18:38:14 <Vornicus> the stdlib function strtol() and its friends do this, sorta; it returns the number it finds, and then one of its parameters is a place to put a pointer to the start of the rest of the string. 18:38:21 <Richk67> nah... i just know a few C coders who love keeping var names as short as possible.... like the compiler cares! 18:39:18 <stillunknown> let's say i want to input 4 things to store and output two of those if i give the first two, how do i do that? 18:39:58 <tamlin> Vornicus: Not to mention strstr (at least I think that's one of the functions) having a static (!) holding state. But yeah, C programs often have a pointer to an "out" struct. Good programs and libraries then also know about "const". ;-> 18:41:59 <stillunknown> i think i know how to retrieve something from a hash map, but no clue how to store something 18:42:16 <Vornicus> Depends on the hash map. 18:42:38 <Vornicus> If this were C++, you'd be able to act like a hash map is an array of sorts. 18:43:10 <stillunknown> C++ is a supposedly broken by default language 18:43:35 <KUDr> <stillunknown> C++ is a supposedly broken by default language <- what it does mean? 18:44:13 <tamlin> stillunknown: I'd reall want to see you say that in ##C++ on freenode. ;-P 18:44:30 <stillunknown> bad language, not to be used, once you can code in c++ you are ruined for life 18:44:37 <tamlin> (j/k) 18:44:41 <tamlin> Bullshit. 18:45:03 <KUDr> heh 18:45:15 <tamlin> C++ is perhaps _the_ most powerful and versatile language we have available currently. 18:45:15 <stillunknown> it's not my opinion 18:45:58 <stillunknown> but there are more than a few people who think c++ is broken(don't know them personally, don't know any coder personally for that matter) 18:45:58 <KUDr> stillunknown: tell it on ##C++ 18:46:11 <tamlin> C++ is always a better C. I nowadays only write C for interfaces, but all implementation is C++ - simply 'cause it's better. 18:46:33 <tamlin> And faster, both for writing code and running it. 18:46:46 *** Triffid_Hunter [n=Splat@funkmunch.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:58 <KUDr> <tamlin> And faster.. <-- only when you know what you do 18:47:43 <tamlin> Indeed! I do however assume anyone writing code to know what they do (heck, even I use asm sometimes, when it's called for). 18:48:30 <stillunknown> void *Transformers(int X_Hash,int Y_Hash,int *Index); 18:48:38 <tamlin> But it's like C. Put a C programmer in a Java position, or a VB programmer in a C position, and I bet you'll see the most inefficient code to do the job. :-) 18:48:44 <stillunknown> what's the difference between a call to store or to retrieve? 18:48:53 *** dp-- [n=dp@p54B2F148.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:53 *** dp__ is now known as dp-- 18:49:52 <tamlin> stillunknown: That function is indeed an example of a bad function exposed. You simply can't know, based on the function name and its signature. 18:50:04 *** christooss [n=matic@clj20-83.dial-up.arnes.si] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:50:15 <stillunknown> void *Transformers(int X_Hash,int Y_Hash,int *Index); <-- has 2 inputs and 1 output 18:50:26 <stillunknown> but how do i call it to retrieve and how to store 18:50:47 <tamlin> No. It's got 2 outputs. 18:51:02 <stillunknown> void *Transformers(int *X_Hash,int *Y_Hash,int Index); <-- has 2 inputs and 1 output 18:51:07 <KUDr> int X_Hash,int Y_Hash ? 18:51:07 <stillunknown> this better? 18:51:08 <tamlin> One is the return value. The other is what Index points to. 18:51:26 <tamlin> OK, drop my comment then. 18:51:40 <tamlin> Now it's got 3 inputs and 1 output. 18:51:55 <stillunknown> i want to input two int's X_hash and Y_hash 18:52:02 <stillunknown> and get one int Index 18:52:03 <KUDr> why? 18:52:07 <tamlin> Actually, it's got *potentially* three inputs, but 4 (!) outputs. 18:52:13 <KUDr> they should produce one hash 18:52:30 <KUDr> so use x and y 18:52:41 <KUDr> and internally calc one hash from it 18:52:53 <tamlin> Wasn't Transformers a Japanese cartoon idea? ;-) 18:52:58 <KUDr> as you must compare x, y in final find 18:52:58 <stillunknown> (hashx+hashy = hashy + hashx)? 18:53:12 *** christooss [n=matic@clj20-83.dial-up.arnes.si] has joined #openttd 18:53:13 *** TrueLight is now known as TL|Away 18:53:26 <KUDr> hmm 18:53:44 <stillunknown> 32 + 64 = 96, but 64 + 32 = 96, not unique 18:53:46 <KUDr> (hashx+hashy = hashy + hashx)? <- WTF? 18:54:02 <KUDr> you don't need unique hash 18:54:10 <KUDr> it should be semiunique 18:54:38 <KUDr> and final search is made by comparing x and y 18:54:45 <KUDr> in a list 18:55:02 <KUDr> but it is inside Hash_... functions 18:55:04 <Vornicus> The only absolute constraint on hashes is that things that would be equal to one another must have equal hashes. 18:55:11 <KUDr> you don't need to care about it 18:55:12 <stillunknown> only thing i can think of is, that you use the first bits in the hash for x and the last for y 18:55:51 <KUDr> you can also do X ^ Y 18:55:58 <KUDr> or anything like that 18:56:11 <KUDr> it will be in a hash calc function 18:56:28 <KUDr> but item needs key 18:56:35 <KUDr> that must be unique 18:56:51 <KUDr> and in this case the key is x and y 18:56:54 <stillunknown> X ^ Y != Y ^ X ? 18:56:58 <SimonRC> Hashes work fine even if everything has the same hash, just a bit slow, that's all. 18:56:59 <KUDr> two values 18:57:08 <SimonRC> stillunknown: it doesn;t mater 18:57:16 <KUDr> exactly 18:57:28 <SimonRC> Surely every programmer konws that xor is commutative 18:57:42 <KUDr> (X ^ Y != Y ^ X) = false 18:57:50 <SimonRC> a good hash function produces scattered results, quickly. 18:58:05 <KUDr> yes 18:58:09 <Noldo> a bit slow? 18:58:14 <stillunknown> so let's say i have supertile (12,16), i don't want the same hash for that as (16,12) 18:58:29 <KUDr> why? 18:58:36 <KUDr> you should not care 18:58:50 <KUDr> the hash map will give you 12,16 18:58:50 <stillunknown> that hash is the only id i have 18:59:03 <KUDr> you must give it x and y 18:59:14 <KUDr> and will have *Trafos 18:59:24 <KUDr> no 18:59:28 <KUDr> id is x,y 18:59:34 <KUDr> it is called key 18:59:49 <KUDr> and hash map works with keys 18:59:58 <KUDr> and hast is used internally only 19:00:11 <KUDr> you don't care a much about it 19:00:20 <stillunknown> sorry for asking this, but the fastest way would probably be to give an example of how to declare, store and recieve 19:00:44 <stillunknown> (then i will hopefully understand how it works) 19:00:53 <KUDr> hmm 19:01:13 <KUDr> Set(int x, int y, Trafos *t) 19:01:30 <KUDr> Trafos* Get(x, y) 19:02:03 <KUDr> Trafos* Get(int x, int y) 19:02:26 <stillunknown> shouldn't there be a decleration of some kind? 19:02:26 <KUDr> this is all 19:02:44 <KUDr> and internal implementation should use Hash map 19:03:36 <KUDr> You init your Hash structure (define hash_calc_func callback 19:03:40 <KUDr> and go 19:03:42 <tamlin> Just coming to think of it - how is SVN as of today? Could I update and expect it to not crash, or should I grab a label? 19:04:09 <KUDr> tamlin: try /branch/yapf/ 19:04:19 <KUDr> and play with ships 19:04:26 <KUDr> i need testers 19:04:50 <tamlin> It's TRUNK besides your changes? 19:04:55 <KUDr> set the yapf type (1..4) described in yapf.txt 19:05:01 *** Richk67 [n=RichK67@194.164.100.143] has quit [] 19:05:33 <KUDr> its TRUNK plus my changes 19:05:41 <tamlin> What is "yapf"? Yet Another Plunker Flupper? 19:05:51 <KUDr> yes :) 19:05:55 <KUDr> pathfinder 19:05:59 <tamlin> Ah! 19:06:02 <KUDr> now for ships only 19:06:11 <tamlin> About time. 19:06:17 <KUDr> i am working on RV YAPF now 19:06:20 <tamlin> Is it a variation of A*? 19:06:26 <KUDr> yes 19:06:30 <izhirahider> yet another pathetic failure :) 19:06:34 <KUDr> but 5x faster than NPF 19:06:38 <tamlin> lol 19:06:50 <KUDr> <izhirahider> : YES! 19:06:52 <tamlin> I like getting failures 5x faster. 19:07:00 <KUDr> hehe 19:07:11 <tamlin> Makes them 50x faster to debug. 19:07:20 *** BJH_ [n=chatzill@e176097068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 19:07:28 <hylje> routine failur 19:07:28 <hylje> e 19:14:05 *** Aankhen`` [n=pockled@203.101.1.56] has quit ["Sleep [Time wasted online: 12hrs 10mins 36secs]"] 19:16:19 <stillunknown> where are containers declared/created? 19:16:35 <KUDr> queue.h/c 19:16:37 <tamlin> At point of declaration/definition. 19:16:52 *** Mucht|zZz_ [n=Mucht@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has quit ["I'll be back!"] 19:17:02 *** DaleStan_ [n=Dale@12-202-240-195.client.insightBB.com] has joined #openttd 19:17:08 *** DaleStan [n=Dale@12-202-240-195.client.insightBB.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:17:54 <stillunknown> Depot's and waypoints, have a special thing of some kind (Depot and Waypoint), what exactly are they? 19:18:52 <KUDr> docs/landscape_grid.html + docs/landscape.html 19:19:18 *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-150-31.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 19:19:37 *** BJH [n=chatzill@e176098164.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:09 <Sacro> evening all 19:20:22 <KUDr> ge 19:21:50 <peter1138> hi 19:22:27 <tamlin> KUDr: I just realized I didn't have any SVN client binaries on this box. Looking at d/l'ing some precompiled binraies (scary, I know), I found I needed to even get an updated sleepycat BDB. Now this is starting to look sinister, and I'm alsmost starting to long back for CVS. 19:23:13 <KUDr> hmm 19:23:38 <Noldo> tamlin: what distro is that sick? 19:23:56 <peter1138> heh, that's only for the svn server 19:38:39 <peter1138> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4900946.stm 19:38:50 <peter1138> err 19:38:58 <peter1138> didn't mean to paste that 19:39:37 <Noldo> well I opened it anyway 19:45:02 *** Maedhros [n=jc@gentoo/developer/Maedhros] has joined #openttd 19:48:11 <stillunknown> int totalpower; /// total power available at transformer 19:48:11 <stillunknown> 19:48:11 <stillunknown> int engines; /// number of engines using this transformer 19:48:11 <stillunknown> 19:48:11 <stillunknown> int powerperengine = totalpower / engines; /// power per engine 19:48:27 <stillunknown> if i define this inside a struct 19:48:58 <Vornicus> Inaccurate. An engine will pull as much power from the grid as it needs; in yours, the slowest electric and the fastest will be pulling the same number of watts. 19:49:16 <peter1138> the third line is invalid, heh 19:49:27 <stillunknown> that ansers my question 19:49:39 <hylje> you implementing power usage w/ eltrains+ 19:50:01 <stillunknown> trying with the very limited knowledge i have 19:56:01 <stillunknown> @Vornicus: if only an x amount is available, then it will be shared, result being less performance 20:00:47 *** RoySmeding [n=Roy@c514451cb.cable.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 20:01:42 *** DJ_Mirage [n=djmirage@biggetje.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:58 *** Scia [n=sciapode@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:56 <stillunknown> static inline bool IsRailWaypoint(TileIndex tile) 20:03:56 <stillunknown> { 20:03:56 <stillunknown> return (_m[tile].m5 & 0xFC) == 0xC4; 20:03:56 <stillunknown> } 20:04:17 <stillunknown> i know this is direct map acces, but what is the & 0xFC? 20:04:28 <glx> a mask 20:05:00 <glx> check docs/landscape.html to see why this mask is used 20:06:03 <stillunknown> does the & imply a comparison(i find it very strange in combination with a return) 20:06:33 <peter1138> no, it states an and 20:06:47 <peter1138> the == is a comparison 20:07:11 <stillunknown> and it returns 1 if true? 20:07:27 <glx> it returns nn 0 if true 20:07:32 <glx> *non 20:07:51 <peter1138> it returns true if m5 & 0xFC equals 0xC4. true happens to be 1 20:08:20 *** Forexs [i=Forexs@x1-6-00-0f-b5-14-63-5f.k136.webspeed.dk] has joined #openttd 20:08:36 <stillunknown> 0xFC != 0xC4 20:09:05 <KUDr> heh 20:09:19 <stillunknown> or is the & another kind than i expect 20:09:24 <KUDr> <stillunknown>: it is relly hard to work with you 20:09:27 <glx> but something & 0xFC can be == 0xC4 20:09:30 <peter1138> & is not && 20:09:54 <peter1138> & is bitwise and, && is logical and 20:10:18 <glx> 0xC6 & 0xFC == 0xC4 20:10:47 <glx> same for 0xC5 , 0xC4 and 0xC3 20:11:01 <glx> oups 0xC7 no 0xC3 20:12:09 *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-150-31.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit ["Sacro has no reason"] 20:12:13 <stillunknown> makes me wonder why hex is used if all comparisons are binary 20:12:36 <glx> because it's easier to write hex than binary 20:12:45 <hylje> and hex is closer to sex 20:13:59 *** KritiK [i=Maxim@ppp85-140-192-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #openttd 20:14:23 * stillunknown is going to find some docs on this, before i make everyone crazy :-) 20:14:40 <glx> good idea :) 20:16:15 <stillunknown> you should all know by now that i'm not a programmer, just someone with an interest 20:17:27 <Belugas> interest is good, keeps you young :) Drives the motor for advancing in knowledge! 20:17:46 *** stavrosg [n=stavrosg@athedsl-19769.otenet.gr] has joined #OpenTTD 20:18:02 <stillunknown> i like to think i'm still young 20:18:30 <stillunknown> 19 is not exactly old :-) 20:19:16 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:26 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has joined #openttd 20:19:36 <Belugas> NO, IT'S NOT OLD AT ALL!!!!! 20:19:41 <Belugas> grrrrr... 20:19:51 <stillunknown> bad joke? 20:20:04 <Belugas> I wish I could be 19 again, but with the knowledge I have right now :) 20:20:12 <Belugas> i'm 42 :( 20:20:16 <Belugas> THAT's OLD 20:20:17 * KUDr wants to be 19 20:21:02 <stillunknown> the only thing i ever learnt to do in this area is bash scripting, which makes me understand only a fraction of c syntax 20:21:35 <stillunknown> but learning while doing seems the only way for me to get better at this sort of thing 20:22:17 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:24 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has joined #openttd 20:25:05 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:14 *** MeusH [n=MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has joined #openttd 20:27:33 <stillunknown> if (flags & DC_EXEC) <-- i've seen than once and don't know what it does 20:28:10 <stillunknown> *more than once 20:28:25 <glx> just check if bit DC_EXEC is set in flags 20:30:16 <stillunknown> and DC_EXEC is? (just tell me when i get to anoying to bear) 20:31:11 <glx> DC_EXEC is 1U<<something (I don't have the eyes on code for now) 20:39:07 <stillunknown> strange, i thought m5 was a byte 20:39:21 <stillunknown> _m[t].m5 = RAIL_TYPE_DEPOT_WAYPOINT | RAIL_SUBTYPE_WAYPOINT | a; 20:39:41 <glx> no problem with that 20:40:02 <glx> you can set a byte like that : b = 11|0001|01 20:40:27 <glx> hmm I made a mistake :) 20:41:11 <glx> b = 11000000 | 00000100 | 00000001 = 11000101 20:43:31 *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-150-31.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 20:44:02 *** |Jeroen| [n=jeroen@dD57729A7.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 20:48:18 <tamlin> It still displays how much whe have "someone" to thank for the rev.eng., and how much it leaks through. 20:49:57 *** Cheery [i=Henri@a81-197-60-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:52:16 *** RoySmeding [n=Roy@c514451cb.cable.wanadoo.nl] has quit ["kthxbye"] 20:52:47 *** Tron_ [n=tron@p54A3E2D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:53:52 <Sacro> hmm, i seem to be quite popular in the dev forum 20:54:25 <MeusH> hey Sacro 20:54:27 <MeusH> welcome back :) 20:54:34 <MeusH> yes you are, indeed 20:58:13 <Sacro> i need my own system back before i can do much really 20:58:37 <Sacro> MeusH: thanks, though ive hardly been away 20:59:16 *** |Jeroen| [n=jeroen@dD57729A7.access.telenet.be] has quit ["Whoopsy"] 21:00:10 *** Jenkz [n=nobody@80-192-44-21.stb.ubr05.dund.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 21:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> i think making elrails dependent on power stations needs some serious work before... 21:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> you need an initial output of power, to get even started... 21:03:33 <KUDr> <Eddi|zuHause2>: it can be so, that without it you must buy it 21:03:42 <KUDr> or will have limited acceleration 21:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> you need more than just coal plants, like oil plants and stuff (maybe nuclear and solar later?) 21:04:00 <MeusH> and what would you transport to/from solar? 21:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> you need power lines 21:04:35 <KUDr> no transport 21:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> and you need transformator stations ("Umspannwerke"), probably part of new stations or depot rewrite 21:05:11 <KUDr> no, only new facility 21:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> well... if you do it, do it completely ;) 21:05:47 *** Tron [n=tron@p54A3E1BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> at the same point, one can probably introduce water/coal (later fuel) refilling devices at stations 21:07:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> again, this is probably best as part of newstations 21:08:01 <KUDr> maybe 21:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> depots should be a subclass of stations, IMHO 21:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> one, that does not accept any goods 21:08:53 <MeusH> EDDI|zuHause2 and KUDr: the best way is to have station with depot parameter. This would i.e. allow railway>monorail>maglev autoreplacement 21:09:07 <MeusH> It would be realistic, too 21:09:16 <KUDr> yes 21:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, that is about what i meant 21:10:19 *** Zr40_ [n=Zirconiu@cl-1124.ams-04.nl.sixxs.net] has joined #openttd 21:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> with such combined stations/depots, one could start developing dynamic train consistence 21:10:58 *** tamlin [n=tamlin@143.18.227.87.ehn.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:11:03 *** DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan 21:11:14 <DaleStan> Why is http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9424 unstickied? 21:19:28 *** Richk67 [n=RichK67@194.164.100.143] has joined #openttd 21:19:47 <Richk67> hi all 21:20:49 *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone 21:22:46 *** Spoco [n=Spoco@dsl-083-102-071-182.lohjanpuhelin.fi] has quit [] 21:26:11 <Sacro> hi Richk67 21:26:24 *** Zr40 [n=Zirconiu@zr40.xs4all.nl] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:28:08 <Richk67> sacro!! 21:28:15 <Sacro> yeah :) tis me 21:28:29 <Richk67> any chance of an update to your patch for the Mini IN??? :) 21:28:30 <MeusH> Sacro: now he will ask you about updating the patch 21:28:34 <Richk67> lol 21:28:35 <MeusH> ^ YEAH :D 21:28:42 <Sacro> which patch? 21:28:51 <Richk67> oh god, am i that predictable ;) 21:28:58 <Sacro> yes :) 21:29:04 <MeusH> aircraft queueing? 21:29:15 <Sacro> i have nfi about that patch 21:29:15 <Richk67> thats cobra for that one 21:29:17 <MeusH> this one may collide with new airports 21:32:26 <Sacro> so, which patch am i being asked about? 21:32:35 <Richk67> its the signal gui auto completion patch - ive tried to integrate it into the mini IN... can you look at what ive done, and see if you think its correct.... it only seems to autocomplete in one direction along the rails, rather than the direction of the drag 21:32:47 *** XeryusTC [n=irc@217.123.34.28] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:32:59 <Sacro> yeah, it does +x and +y, but not -x and -y 21:33:16 <Sacro> the old IN signal gui patch worked though AFAIK 21:33:17 <Richk67> oh, in that case ive probably got it working oj 21:33:20 <Richk67> ok even 21:33:45 <Richk67> i reused the old IN patch, but it needed a *lot* of updating 21:33:53 <Sacro> all i did was copy paste it into the latest SVN and checked it compiled ok 21:34:38 <Richk67> quite a few functions have been renamed/removed... _railbit was a pig to replace (now _trackdelta) 21:38:15 <Richk67> for anyone who wants the latest mini IN... just posted R4410IN 21:38:46 <Sacro> i think i might download it 21:38:57 <Sacro> and bug people for a R4410IN server 21:40:38 <Richk67> im really happy with the new Mini IN... i didnt care much for the old R3464IN... terrain was average IMO, and i missed lots of features that are either now in trunk, or in new patches... :) 21:41:10 *** Marce [i=marce@meinungsverstaerker.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:20 *** Marce [i=marce@meinungsverstaerker.de] has joined #openttd 21:41:43 <Sacro> this one is looking great 21:41:46 *** XeryusTC [n=XeryusTC@217.123.34.28] has joined #openttd 21:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> i might try the new IN... some changes yesterday really broke the one i got last :p 21:42:01 <Richk67> hopefully (soon), the Mini IN will be added to the compile farm nightly builds, so there will be a multi-platform Mini IN available nightly :) 21:42:13 <Sacro> oooh nice 21:42:58 <Sacro> hehehehehe http://www.firefoxflicks.com/flick/index.php?id=19542&c=false 21:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> how do i get TortoiseSVN to just undo one local patch, and leave the other ones untouched? 21:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> currently, i have to undo all changes, and then remember which patches i applied 21:44:47 *** Marce_ [i=marce@meinungsverstaerker.de] has joined #openttd 21:44:49 <Richk67> hmm... dunno - i would love to know though 21:45:11 *** tomahawk [n=tomahawk@abtj173.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:38 <Rubidium> make the invert of the patch and apply that (should be possible to make from the patch alone, though I do not know of an application that does that for you) 21:46:11 <blathijs> Rubidium: it's called "patch -r" 21:46:21 <Richk67> hmm... Mini IN the mother of all patches ;) 515kb! 21:46:28 <blathijs> oh wait, windows system :-) 21:46:30 *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bed 21:46:41 <MeusH> congrats Richk67 21:46:43 <Sacro> blathijs, Rubidium: cygwin 21:46:54 * MeusH thinks about his tooltip measurement 21:47:39 <Richk67> MeusH: that would be really nice, but i fear it is a *lot* of work... the conflicts were big and involved 21:47:53 <MeusH> hmm 21:48:07 <MeusH> I think I may also begin it from scratch 21:48:17 *** tank [i=tank@meinungsverstaerker.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:22 *** Marce [i=marce@meinungsverstaerker.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:23 *** Marce_ is now known as Marce 21:48:25 <Richk67> may be more stable that way 21:49:11 <MeusH> Richk67, do you have any idea of placement of the measurement? 21:49:27 <MeusH> tooltip is good, but sometimes letters get out of it 21:49:27 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:33 *** tank [i=tank@meinungsverstaerker.de] has joined #openttd 21:49:38 <MeusH> and it is randomly flickering from time to time 21:50:46 <MeusH> I thought about money/date field - it would be overwritten with measurement when holding shift 21:51:32 <Richk67> hmm... dont know about placement - just about wherever you put it, it will be wrong for someone 21:51:45 *** Mackay [i=crazedsc@81-178-111-40.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [] 21:52:05 *** Meznev [n=Elshar@ip206-90.oregonfast.net] has joined #openttd 21:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> what does this thing measure? 21:53:30 <Richk67> how about re-use the transparent background text feature for network messages, and have it appear above the info bar at bottom of screen (but transparent) 21:54:01 <Richk67> you then shouldnt have it flicker, as it will be disconnected from mouse movement 21:54:38 *** Elshar [i=Elshar@just.another.lame.unix-admin.com] has quit [No route to host] 21:54:56 *** fusee [n=fusion@220.142.171.66.subscriber.vzavenue.net] has joined #openttd 21:55:23 <Richk67> eddi - just about anything that is dragable - length of rails, area for destroy tool, etc. 21:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> how about placing some text like the buy/sell/income/transfer/whatever animation, just not animated? 21:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> just above the mouse cursor? 21:57:49 <Richk67> thats what it does atm... but it has problems with flickering, and placement 21:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> intresting... 21:58:28 <Richk67> MeusH: ping 21:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> flickering is maybe caused by something drawn above it? 21:59:09 <MeusH> Richk67: pong 21:59:21 <Richk67> MeusH: just had a thought - how about have the tool auto-calculate cost as well, and display that 21:59:28 <MeusH> Richk67: great idea 21:59:38 <MeusH> about positioning 21:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> that should not be too hard ;) 22:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> just query the command costs ;) 22:00:01 <MeusH> about auto calculating - I was testing it but it was deadly when building things like tunnels 22:00:08 <MeusH> it tries to build a tunnel every tick 22:00:25 <Richk67> one thing i hate about current SHIFT function is to get the cost of a tunnel, you hold SHIFT, then have to end the tunnel... i want to see cost without having to release mouse 22:00:27 <Richk67> ah 22:00:27 <MeusH> if tunnel is >50 tiles long, even our computers go slowly 22:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe you should cache such calculations? 22:01:23 <MeusH> Richk67: interested in bugfixing terragenesis? 22:01:30 <MeusH> I have just downloaded your mini IN 22:01:46 <Richk67> what is wrong ... (oh dear, sounds bad) 22:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> and only recalculate, if the cursor actually leaves the tile? 22:02:39 <MeusH> Generating random arctic map 22:02:56 <Richk67> what seed? 22:02:58 <MeusH> 512x256, smooth corners, hilly or mountanous 22:03:01 <MeusH> uhh 22:03:05 <MeusH> any? 22:03:09 <MeusH> wait 22:03:15 <MeusH> I'll write it first 22:03:39 <MeusH> anyway, there are very few snowy areas, which are completly covered with forests 22:04:05 <MeusH> also, if there are no forestes on the map (arctic, very flat), there should be no paper mills and printing works, too 22:04:35 <Richk67> good idea on forests 22:04:48 <MeusH> You should check all industries that way 22:05:29 <Richk67> oh - if you get a strange map, abandon game, and go into ScenGen... the random land option will then show you what seed you used 22:05:45 <MeusH> okay 22:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe you should be able to get that through console ;) 22:06:34 <MeusH> also a good idea 22:07:27 <Richk67> yeah - good idea 22:07:46 <Richk67> (i have no idea how, but its a good idea ;) ) 22:08:20 <Richk67> i may add the random seed to the savegame, so it can be queried later 22:08:36 *** Elshar [n=Elshar@ip206-90.oregonfast.net] has joined #openttd 22:08:56 <MeusH> RichK67: devs won't like it 22:09:25 <MeusH> let's hope you can add that feature later, when your patch gets merged 22:09:25 *** fusey [n=fusion@220.142.171.66.subscriber.vzavenue.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:26 *** fusee is now known as fusey 22:10:09 <Richk67> if i can justify it, devs will be fine... certainly in Mini IN, thats *my* baby ;) 22:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> i think, before you can commit the terragenesis, you have to reduce the number of cities/industries placed 22:10:58 <Richk67> eddi - it is precisely the same as old OTTD... 22:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it is not! 22:11:12 *** jong [n=jong@flipflip.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 22:11:27 <Richk67> lol - tis too :) i havent touched those parts of the routine 22:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> that does not matter, it is more ;) 22:11:44 *** Meznev [n=Elshar@ip206-90.oregonfast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> i had to reduce from medium to few to get a reasonable density of cities 22:12:16 <Richk67> lol - check out 256x256 on Normal, Normal... you will find 8 coal, 10 farms, etc... 22:13:35 <Darkvater> 13:42 <@peter1138> Darkvater: greek / russian... could we provide a method to load an alternate graphics file containing their characters? 22:13:50 <Darkvater> if they make the grf file, it's only a matter of putting it in the newgrf section 22:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, i never seem to get actually _small_ towns anymore (with like 3 houses) 22:14:13 <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: ping 22:15:00 * Richk67 shrugs... not my fault, guv ;) 22:15:08 <Richk67> at least, i dont think so 22:15:17 <Richk67> you're getting me worried now 22:15:31 <Darkvater> damn you guys chat too much 22:15:37 <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: PM 22:15:41 * Darkvater gives up on reading back 22:16:23 <Richk67> hi ... gas bag here ;) 22:17:05 <Richk67> eddi: 128x128, temp, flat, normal, normal. old:11 towns, TGP: 11 towns 22:19:56 <MeusH> Richk67: one more bug 22:20:01 <MeusH> with speedsignals 22:20:16 <MeusH> *speedsigns 22:20:19 <Richk67> fire away 22:20:29 <MeusH> you can't build speedsign on junction, but you can build junction on speedsign 22:20:43 <Richk67> good one 22:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway... maybe it is subjective... but it feels more 22:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> especially with industries 22:22:06 <Richk67> eddi: the only change i did to any generation quantities is to reduce antennas from 40 @ 256x256 to 15. for some reason, i think old system was failing to place some of them, but it has no problem on TGP 22:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe i just got oddly high random numbers ;) 22:24:13 <Richk67> on a big map, >=1024, industries appeared like a plague across the map... but its to do with the scaling formula - i think it needs to be less frequent at higher map sizes 22:24:51 <Richk67> but its not TGP causing it - its perhaps more is expected of the nicer map 22:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe that is the problem ;) 22:25:35 *** ThePizzaKing [n=thepizza@c211-28-155-182.eburwd2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 22:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> nuber of industries should scale with map area 22:27:49 <Richk67> they all do: ScaleByMapSize(n) 22:27:56 <Richk67> ( n ) 22:28:09 *** tokai|mdlx [n=tokai@p54B81061.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 22:29:09 *** Born_Acorn [n=bornacor@AC8FC2E1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #openttd 22:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe just the random spread has to be reduced? 22:30:13 *** Sacro2 [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-150-31.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 22:32:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> wether it is your "fault" or not... i believe those numbers need a little balancing 22:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> and the cities/industries list lack the number of items contained in it... 22:35:13 <Richk67> i agree - it need rebalancing... but its quite subjective. some people want a lot, others almost none 22:36:03 <Richk67> im considering going to a really customisable system: you select the number of towns, or perhaps a range, rather than "low/normal/high" 22:36:52 *** tokai|ni [n=tokai@p54B81061.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 22:39:14 * Sacro2 sits and plots the downfall 22:39:28 *** Mukke [n=Mukke@x1-6-00-13-8f-3d-00-a9.k146.webspeed.dk] has quit [] 22:39:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> no... too many options are not good 22:40:18 <Darkvater> agree with eddi here 22:40:29 *** Tobin [n=Tobin@c211-28-197-129.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 22:40:31 <MeusH> we already have too many options 22:40:35 <Darkvater> and thus I offski :) 22:40:35 <Darkvater> gn 22:40:37 *** Darkvater [n=tfarago@tin.liacs.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 22:41:09 *** e1ko [n=31k0@a02-0432c.kn.vutbr.cz] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.67+ [SeaMonkey 1.0/2006013012]"] 22:41:22 <Richk67> hmm... ill just have to get the balance "right" then... and then dig my heels in ;) 22:46:50 *** Mucht [n=Mucht@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has joined #openttd 22:47:21 *** tokai [n=tokai@p54B83452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:31 *** bociusz [n=bociusz@194.152.154.30] has joined #OpenTTD 22:47:35 *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-150-31.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:50 *** tokai|noir [n=tokai@p54B83452.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:08 <MeusH> wow 22:48:16 *** bociusz [n=bociusz@194.152.154.30] has quit [Client Quit] 22:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> hmzz... the pillars of high bridges are clearly not compatible with newbridges 22:48:20 *** CobraA1 [n=Jeremiah@cpe-024-088-000-194.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 22:48:26 <MeusH> tooltips patch survived, there were only small problems with updating 22:48:32 <MeusH> hello CobraA1 22:48:42 <Richk67> lol :) 22:48:45 <MeusH> Richk67 will ask you.... 22:48:48 <Richk67> im saying nothing ;) 22:48:58 <MeusH> yes you are 22:49:21 <Richk67> MeusH: is your patch uploaded? can i grab it, or do you want to PM it 22:50:53 *** Richk67_ [n=RichK67@194.164.100.143] has joined #openttd 22:54:05 *** Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: eQualizer, CobraA1, vrak, Jezral, Maedhros, TSC, blathijs, SchAmane, dp--, Nubian, (+38 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 22:54:22 <Born_Acorn> purdy 22:55:38 <Richk67_> ouch... that was a nasty kick 22:55:55 *** Netsplit over, joins: Bjarni, Tobin, tokai|ni 22:55:55 *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-150-31.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 22:55:55 *** Netsplit over, joins: Elshar, tokai|mdlx, ThePizzaKing, jong, fusey, Xeryus|bed, Richk67, MeusH, stavrosg, Maedhros (+33 more) 22:55:55 *** ServerMode/#openttd [+ooo Bjarni MiHaMiX peter1138] by irc.freenode.net 22:56:20 <Sacro> shouldnt have cliecked that one... 22:56:50 *** Sacro [i=Ben@adsl-83-100-150-31.karoo.KCOM.COM] 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by peer)] 23:04:12 *** Maedhros [n=jc@i-195-137-43-74.freedom2surf.net] has joined #openttd 23:04:13 *** Kalpa [i=kalpa@dsl-hkigw4-fe38de00-122.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 23:04:17 *** Tobin [n=Tobin@c211-28-197-129.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 23:04:33 *** Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: eQualizer, vrak, Jezral, Maedhros, TSC, blathijs, SchAmane, dp--, Nubian, Rubidium, (+36 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 23:04:54 <Born_Acorn> aaaand again. 23:07:14 <^Cartman^> LOL 23:08:59 *** Bjarni [n=Bjarni@0x53588a85.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 23:08:59 *** Prof_Frink [n=proffrin@cpc2-shep3-0-0-cust274.leic.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 23:08:59 *** Tobin [n=Tobin@c211-28-197-129.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 23:08:59 *** Kalpa [i=kalpa@dsl-hkigw4-fe38de00-122.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 23:08:59 *** fusee [n=fusion@220.142.171.66.subscriber.vzavenue.net] has joined #openttd 23:08:59 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has joined #openttd 23:08:59 *** ServerMode/#openttd [+ooo Bjarni MiHaMiX peter1138] by irc.freenode.net 23:09:02 <^Cartman^> Yeah 23:09:06 *** Mucht is now known as Mucht|zZz 23:09:52 *** peter1138 [n=peter@svn.bucks.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:59 *** Bjarni [n=Bjarni@0x53588a85.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:10:55 *** Tobin [n=Tobin@c211-28-197-129.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:08 *** Mek [i=marijn@82.75.184.247] has joined #openttd 23:11:29 *** Kalpa^ [i=kalpa@dsl-hkigw4-fe38de00-122.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 23:11:33 *** peter1138 [n=peter@svn.bucks.net] has joined #openttd 23:11:35 <MeusH> death time 23:11:39 *** Tobin [n=Tobin@c211-28-197-129.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 23:12:07 *** Kalpa [i=kalpa@dsl-hkigw4-fe38de00-122.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:11 *** Rexxie [n=rexxars@rexxars.e43-sw5.tg06.gathering.org] has joined #openttd 23:13:12 <Vornicus> You think it was bad in here, imagine it in one of the channels with 500. 23:14:40 *** fusey [n=fusion@220.142.171.66.subscriber.vzavenue.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:14:40 *** fusee is now known as fusey 23:15:12 <MeusH> what a mess 23:15:26 <MeusH> so, it's great we're not >500 channel :) 23:15:40 <MeusH> by the way, most people sleep now, so that's no problem for them 23:15:43 <MeusH> just a mess in logs 23:18:23 <izhirahider> heh, there was a split? 23:18:32 <izhirahider> I'm ignoring joins/parts :) 23:21:00 *** UnderBuilder [n=UnderBui@168.226.104.237] has joined #openttd 23:21:14 *** Angst [n=Angst@p549447A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["n8"] 23:24:51 *** tokai|mdlx [n=tokai@p54B81061.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["It's like, wah."] 23:25:36 *** tokai [n=tokai@p54B81061.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 23:26:08 <MeusH> yeah 23:26:18 <UnderBuilder> what? 23:26:19 <MeusH> ton of these messages 23:32:39 *** init_ [n=init@c83-250-153-195.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 23:43:25 <UnderBuilder> zzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzz.... #openttd is getting bored 23:44:16 <tokai> then watch tv. simple. 23:44:23 <UnderBuilder> lol 23:45:01 <tokai> or do some coding like a real man (or woman, dunno) :) 23:45:23 *** Tobin [n=Tobin@c211-28-197-129.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [] 23:45:30 <UnderBuilder> I don't know too many programation languages 23:45:52 <tokai> c is enough. u can do everything with it. 23:46:29 *** Richk67 [n=RichK67@194.164.100.143] has joined #openttd 23:47:49 <UnderBuilder> I don't have knowledges on C, but I will learn sometime 23:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> starting to learn programming by learning C is really bad 23:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> C is a real mess 23:48:55 <UnderBuilder> the first programming language that I know was qbasic 23:49:00 *** Prof_Frink [n=proffrin@cpc2-shep3-0-0-cust274.leic.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:04 *** SchAmane [n=schamane@p5498E081.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:06 <UnderBuilder> I made silly games with that 23:49:23 *** Zothar [n=chatzill@adsl-69-155-218-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #openttd 23:49:27 <izhirahider> I know a lot of C, my problem is to aprehend what's being done in such a complex project like openttd in a scoop 23:49:30 * tokai started with good old basic too (first amigabasic, then blitzbasic.. and later c.. and now still c;) 23:49:59 *** SchAmane [n=schamane@p5498E83B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:50:15 <UnderBuilder> I have Microsofy Visual Studios installed in my PC 23:50:15 <tokai> c roxx as long you can use the right apis:) 23:51:55 <stillunknown> does table/strings.h (generated from english.txt i think) need a specific order? 23:52:38 *** Prof_Frink [n=proffrin@cpc2-shep3-0-0-cust274.leic.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 23:52:42 *** Richk67 [n=RichK67@194.164.100.143] has quit [] 23:53:07 <stillunknown> table/strings.h:2668: error: redeclaration of enumerator `LANGUAGE_PACK_IDENT' 23:53:07 <stillunknown> table/strings.h:2668: error: previous definition of 'LANGUAGE_PACK_IDENT' was he 23:53:07 <stillunknown> re 23:53:07 <stillunknown> table/strings.h:2669: error: redeclaration of enumerator `LANGUAGE_PACK_VERSION' 23:53:07 <stillunknown> table/strings.h:2669: error: previous definition of 'LANGUAGE_PACK_VERSION' was 23:53:08 <stillunknown> here 23:53:53 <stillunknown> and i get a lot of those (i added two strings, even reverted to old lang files to see if same thing happened) 23:55:16 <izhirahider> did you forgot to remove a ')'Â? 23:56:21 <glx> stillunknown: where did you added these 2 strings? 23:57:16 <UnderBuilder> I want to learn C :(, but probably that will happen later :) 23:57:35 <stillunknown> i added them to command.c 23:58:03 <stillunknown> no, rail_gui.c 23:58:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> stillunknown: messed up with the #ifdef wrap around the file? 23:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> the message looks like the file was included several times 23:59:15 <glx> ho yeah Eddi|zuHause2 is right 23:59:33 <stillunknown> the only thing i did was make two new files 23:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> (which is only one of the parts where C is messy)