Log for #openttd on 3rd June 2006:
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00:01:09  <Sacro> hey lws1984
00:01:25  <lws1984> hey :P
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05:43:58  <peter1138> hmm
05:55:22  <peter1138> mmm
05:55:28  <peter1138> really compact 4 ways :D
06:34:45  <hylje> :o
06:34:47  <hylje> rly?
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06:41:15  <Celestar> hi peops
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06:45:38  <peter1138> yeah
06:46:00  <peter1138> Celestar:
06:49:38  <Celestar> reading
06:50:44  <Celestar> what is it supposed to do?
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06:55:20  <Celestar> where are new engine types added ...
06:55:51  <peter1138> ?
06:55:59  <peter1138> VEH_*?
06:56:07  <Celestar> I'm looking at the vehicle selection bug
06:56:08  <peter1138> or
06:56:12  <peter1138> oh
06:56:42  <peter1138> that one just needs to remember the selected engine id, not the position in the list
06:56:50  <Celestar> yes
06:56:57  <Celestar> it actually already remembers both
06:57:05  <peter1138> hmm
06:57:45  <peter1138> presumably it then overwrite the engine id from the position
06:58:01  <Celestar> yes :)
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07:03:04  <Celestar> uh huh :S
07:03:23  <Celestar> peter1138: we have no information on what engine is at what position ...
07:04:13  <Celestar> oh .. we do
07:04:33  <peter1138> we must do
07:04:35  <peter1138> cos it's drawn ;p
07:05:12  <Celestar> yeah
07:05:13  <Celestar>  :P
07:05:19  <Celestar> ok I'll have breakfast first
07:05:29  <Celestar> about that marco.h patch, what does it do=?
07:06:12  <Celestar> bbl
07:06:22  <peter1138> puts brackets around the parameters
07:06:57  <peter1138> this engine selection thing looks simple to fix
07:09:28  * peter1138 tests his autoreplace fix
07:10:07  <peter1138> CHANCE16(20 + 5, 20 + 20)
07:10:20  <peter1138> currently: ((65536 * 20 + 5) / 20 + 20)
07:10:35  <peter1138> with change: ((65535 * (20 + 5) / (20 + 20))
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07:40:42  <peter1138> hmm
07:40:51  <peter1138> still not working :/
07:41:16  <peter1138> Celestar: i can make it not do the auto replacement
07:41:46  <peter1138> but wagon removal happens too late
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08:40:12  <Celestar> bcak
08:40:38  <Celestar> peter1138: that fix (macros) seems sensible doesn't it?
08:40:50  <anboni> hmm.. it's pretty hard to see the difference between exit and combo signals :/
08:40:56  <Celestar> yes it is
08:41:08  <Celestar> but don't worry I hope newsignalling will solve that problem
08:41:20  <anboni> Celestar, are you sure any "problems" caused by that bug haven't been worked around in other places by now?
08:41:32  <anboni> can't wait for that newsignalling stuff :)
08:41:43  <Celestar> anboni: "that bug" ?
08:42:06  <anboni> macros.h
08:42:28  <Celestar> possible, it is still an error
08:42:37  <Celestar> bah great
08:42:54  <Celestar> some dumbfuck at the airport took all my sister's jewellery out of the suitcase :S
08:42:59  <anboni> wtf
08:43:13  <Celestar> several thousand $$$
08:43:18  <anboni> yikes
08:43:22  <Celestar> must have been in Boston
08:43:28  <Celestar> TSA fuckers
08:43:45  <peter1138> it only affects one place
08:43:50  <Celestar> the luggage wasn't screened anywhere else
08:44:11  <brygge_2> Celestar: why is it not possible to have bridges over bridges in the nightly?
08:44:25  <Celestar> brygge_2: because I haven't coded it cleanly yet :)
08:44:32  <peter1138> industry_cmd.c:1546
08:44:43  <peter1138> CHANCE16I(20 + (i->pct_transported[j] * 20 >> 8), 1024, r >> 16)
08:44:57  <Celestar> brygge_2: the problem is that I need new sprites. I'm just busy drawing them.
08:45:06  <Celestar> peter1138: how would the "fix" affect gameplay?
08:45:21  <peter1138> (but is (foo * 20 >> 8) a workaround?
08:45:21  <Celestar> maybe then industries REALLY grow if needed?
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08:46:12  * peter1138 checks that in 0.1 ;)
08:46:25  <Celestar> ^^
08:46:27  <Celestar> 0.1.4 :P
08:47:27  <Celestar> ok
08:47:44  <Celestar> me.change_position(&cops);
08:47:46  <Celestar> cu later
08:48:21  <peter1138> hmm, totally different code ;p
08:48:40  <Prof_Frink> Celestar: abuse Born_Walnut to draw sprites for you
08:50:07  <Celestar> Prof_Frink: ? :P
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08:50:36  <roboman> he means born_accorn
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08:51:37  <roboman>
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09:01:28  <Celestar> ok
09:02:09  <Celestar> peter1138: if the two bugs are fixed today, we'll tag 0.4.8rc1
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09:07:29  <Celestar> peter1138: so shall I apply that macro-fix?
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09:08:09  <Celestar> then I'll commit the bridge-drawing fix I have up to now
09:12:33  <Celestar> peter1138:  I'll also commit my console-patches patch :)
09:12:48  <KUDr> sounds good
09:13:56  <Celestar> morning KUDr
09:14:04  <KUDr> morning
09:14:05  <Celestar> there was something I wanted to talk to you about ..
09:14:24  <KUDr> hehe and i wanted to play ;)
09:14:26  * Celestar scratches head "but what was is"
09:14:28  <Celestar> play what?
09:14:33  <KUDr> ottd
09:14:44  <KUDr> your bridges
09:14:52  <KUDr> it is very nice
09:14:53  <Celestar> ah :)(
09:14:55  <Celestar> thanks
09:15:01  <Celestar> oh yes newsignalling.
09:15:10  <KUDr> aha
09:15:12  <Celestar> we needa wait until we have all the API for signals finished.
09:15:25  <KUDr> ok
09:15:28  <Celestar> KUDr: <= your comments
09:15:35  <KUDr> but we will need bit more
09:15:43  <Celestar> otherwise you'll have to access the map directly and I don't think you want that (=
09:15:46  <KUDr> like pool of signal objects
09:15:51  <Celestar> why?
09:16:02  <KUDr> to remember reservations
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09:16:19  <Celestar> that'll be a HUGE pool
09:16:28  <KUDr> it will
09:16:45  <KUDr> but without it i can't imagine how it can work
09:17:00  <Celestar> by having just a bit "reserved/not reserved" ?
09:17:08  <Celestar> but I dunno if that'll do
09:17:19  <anboni> given the state of today's computers, i think it's fine for ottd to use a bit more than the 20mb it's using now :)
09:17:29  <KUDr> FS#198 - i agree that it should be fixed (and then possibly fixed consequencies)
09:17:44  <Celestar> anboni: the problem is, those 20MB is what you have to transmit via network in multiplayer on join.
09:18:06  <Celestar> and most people to not have a 100MBps upload
09:18:11  <anboni> hmm.. yeah, guess i never really take network games into consideration:)
09:18:14  <KUDr> Celestar: need to know who has it reserved
09:18:35  <anboni> couldn't you use zlib compression on transmit?
09:18:35  <Celestar> KUDr: ok then we need to move the information out of the map array (what makes sense anyway)
09:18:37  * Brianetta is painfully aware of the traffic graph spikes whenever anybody connects to his servers
09:18:40  <Celestar> anboni: we do.
09:18:51  <KUDr> Celestar: yes
09:19:09  <Celestar> KUDr: and make signals objects ..
09:19:49  <KUDr> with block too or without?
09:19:52  <Brianetta> Can't some information be regenerated client-side, extending the pause-on-join to accommodate?
09:20:05  <Celestar> KUDr: we'll have to see ...
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09:20:14  <Celestar> KUDr: I'm off a bit, you can go play :P
09:20:21  <KUDr> ok
09:20:32  <KUDr> good luck w/ cops
09:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> i agree with Brianetta... if things are deterministic enough, they need not be saved, but can be regenerated at load
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09:28:20  <Brianetta> Things should be 100% deterministic, except player input
09:28:49  <Brianetta> The random seed is guaranteed to be consistent by the desync system
09:30:08  <peter1138> some things can
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09:49:28  <Darkvater> morning
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09:50:36  <KUDr> morning master
09:55:13  <Darkvater> anyone committed the CHANCE16 macro-fix yet?
09:55:21  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Client Quit]
09:55:31  <Darkvater> those parameters, or any for that matter in macros should be parenthesized
09:55:33  <Darkvater> hi KUDr
09:56:34  <peter1138> Darkvater: < half solution to autoreplace problem
09:57:19  <Darkvater> jezus christ...that's insane
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09:57:38  <Darkvater> the new CEO of yahoo only gets a salary of  (in return for stock options)
09:57:48  <Darkvater> his previous salary was 56.8MILLION dollars
09:58:03  <Darkvater> how the fuck does someone get 56.8 million a year?
09:58:09  <Darkvater> those people should be shot
09:58:12  <Darkvater> on the spot
09:58:20  <Bjarni> that would be like 56.7-8 million more than me :(
09:58:28  <Darkvater> hmm, in 2004 he got 131.2million
09:58:36  <peter1138> if i had a salary of 56.8 million...
09:58:43  <peter1138> well
09:58:46  <Bjarni> how can he be worth such an amount for a company?
10:00:04  <Bjarni> I don't know that either
10:00:43  <Born_Acorn> Good Morning various peoples such as Darkvater and Bjarni.
10:01:00  <Born_Acorn> who have arrived since I did, not 30 minutes backwards in time.
10:02:39  <Darkvater> good morning to you too sir
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10:07:25  <peter1138> yay
10:07:37  <peter1138> i can fix my network inadequancies by putting signals under bridges...
10:07:56  <peter1138> or even through, in some cases o_O
10:11:47  <Brianetta> Signals on bridgeheads would be cool
10:12:01  <Brianetta> and waypoints wherever
10:12:56  <peter1138> heh
10:13:21  <peter1138> waypoints could be on tile edges
10:13:34  <Brianetta> That's where signals should be (:
10:13:36  <peter1138> disgarding all graphics, heh
10:13:37  <[Shaman]> [@peter1138]: if i had a salary of 56.8 million... << Calculate that as money-per-minute, way more fun then :p
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10:14:33  <peter1138> only 455...
10:14:47  <peter1138> hmm, 7.58 a second
10:15:34  <peter1138> Brianetta: given a choice of signals on bridgeheads, or custom bridgeheads, i'd go for the latter, though :)
10:15:49  <Brianetta> Yeah, probably
10:16:00  <Brianetta> but both should be eminently doable.
10:16:10  <Brianetta> In fact, a custom bridgehead can have a signal, can't it?
10:16:17  <peter1138> i've done custom bridge heads once...
10:16:49  <Darkvater> peter1138: is that based on a 40hour week-load?
10:17:05  <peter1138> yeah
10:17:10  <peter1138> that's probably not right either
10:17:16  <peter1138> maybe 15 a second...
10:17:41  <XeryusTC> hi everyone :)
10:18:51  <Darkvater> 8.21 per second based on 40 hours a week, 48 weeks a year
10:21:12  <peter1138> well anyway
10:21:21  <Darkvater> pay up ^^
10:21:28  <peter1138> Bjarni: any comments on my autoreplace diff?
10:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> 48 weeks?
10:21:57  <Darkvater> you gotta have vacation
10:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> are you not getting like 6 weeks vacation?
10:22:10  <Darkvater> I figured he works a lot
10:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> he probably gets the company jet anyway ;)
10:23:07  <Prof_Frink> For that kinda money he should do
10:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> so why vacation when you can go to bali for a "business meeting" ;)
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10:39:40  <Darkvater> hi RichK67: yes will read diff at some point :)
10:40:01  <RichK67> hi DV: wow - mind reader too ;)
10:40:50  <Darkvater> I figured from the backlog that's something you wanted ;p
10:41:36  <RichK67> lol - yeah, i may have time to do some work on TGP this weekend too, but its less ready than NewAirports
10:41:46  <RichK67> (ie it has bugs )
10:44:12  <KUDr> but TGP is much more usefull
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10:47:14  <RichK67> for TGP, ive got to a) check if i can improve the vertical scaling to reduce the flat mountain plateaus, b) improve the gui, c) sort 64x small maps, d) blend the terrain down at the map edge better.... all of these are non-trivial
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10:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> e) fix industry placement near towns ;)
10:49:46  <Brianetta> d) is unnecessary
10:49:57  <Brianetta> Some people love those coastal cliffs
10:50:00  <peter1138> hmm, google does music result searches now?
10:50:23  <peter1138> cliffs++
10:50:26  <peter1138> (cliff richard--)
10:51:17  <RichK67> e) true ... i forgot to add "e) bug fix"
10:52:26  <Brianetta> RichK67:
10:52:30  <Brianetta> Check out the third image
10:52:39  <KUDr> a) can wait - not showstopper
10:53:08  <KUDr> c) you had it solved or not?
10:53:28  <KUDr> d) also not showstopper
10:54:01  <KUDr> e) after merge
10:54:11  <RichK67> cool harbour :)
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10:56:18  <RichK67> c) i may just add the old TerraGenesis patch to handle the small maps - it did them quite well. its only major problem was it is slower than TGP on big maps; but that is not a problem ....
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10:56:35  <Brianetta> Somebody's been really testing bridges on my nightly server (:
10:56:36  <Brianetta>
10:56:51  <RichK67> if (mapX or mapY < 128 ) use old_TG, else use TGP
10:57:06  <Brianetta> RichK67: Simple, works.
10:57:24  <Brianetta> If people want realistic continents, they need a continental sized play area.
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10:58:36  <Brianetta> Can players bridge over buildings?
10:58:39  <Brianetta> That'd be canny
10:59:48  <Brianetta> Is there a dev on?
11:00:11  <peter1138> no
11:00:15  <peter1138> they can't
11:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> requires "minimum clearance" for each tile
11:01:01  <Brianetta> Look at
11:01:01  <Brianetta> Grf requirements are as for the nightly
11:01:21  <Brianetta> It demonstrates the common result of a hard-to-replicate bug
11:01:59  <peter1138> where?
11:02:06  <Brianetta> Trains often manageDrudingham
11:02:22  <Brianetta> Trains often manage to miss a vacant platform, jamming up as a result
11:02:30  <Brianetta> It's avoidable with sufficiently long signal blocks
11:02:34  <Brianetta> but you know how players are
11:03:03  <Brianetta> 0x2187
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11:04:23  <roboman> those bridges are crazzy
11:04:36  <Brianetta> roboman: I think they're been well and truly tested
11:04:43  <peter1138> Brianetta: the stuck train isn't even going to drudingham
11:04:54  <peter1138> Brianetta: that's why it doesn't find a platform
11:04:57  <Brianetta> Oh, should have checked
11:05:08  <Brianetta> But still, this does happen sometimes
11:05:15  <roboman> brianetta, how often do you play on i climate other than temperate
11:05:19  <Brianetta> although now it all uses YAPF it's likely to be fixed
11:05:24  <peter1138> Brianetta: shouldn't
11:05:25  <Brianetta> roboman: Occasionally
11:05:30  <roboman> ok
11:05:32  <peter1138> Brianetta: in that case, it's gone to the nearest depot
11:05:53  <roboman> i wanted to join the toyland game but it wasnt working
11:05:55  <peter1138> and then can't make the 90° turn
11:05:56  <Brianetta> peter1138: I have depot visits turned off
11:06:08  <peter1138> hmm
11:06:08  <Brianetta> I noticed it in the famouse "Kenford" game
11:06:13  <peter1138> yes, that's annoying :P
11:06:20  <peter1138> autoreplace no work :(
11:06:30  <Brianetta> I eventually redesigned the station with longer blocks sso that if they turned around, they could back off sufficiently
11:06:40  <Brianetta> autoreplace works just fine
11:06:47  <Brianetta> Except it's selective
11:06:50  <peter1138> yes, but not automatically
11:06:59  <Brianetta> You can upgrade those four trains by sending to depot
11:07:07  <Brianetta> and just clicking start when they get there
11:07:18  <Brianetta> It's still a massive effort saver
11:07:45  <Brianetta> Sometimes I only want to upgrade some of my 125s to 225s
11:07:55  <Brianetta> because the others are on unelectrified routes
11:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> you need to be able to filter the train list, and then have a button "send all to depot"
11:08:37  <Brianetta> I turn off depot visits because, well, if I was on a train to London and it pulled into a depot on the way, I'd be puzzled.
11:09:07  <Brianetta> My preferred approach would be to turn off all automatic depot visits, even with breakdowns on, and schedule my own stops.
11:09:21  <Brianetta> With a passenger unload order beforehand...
11:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> because i want to have all cargo trains go with BR250, except all goods trains, which have higher speed limit
11:10:21  <peter1138> Brianetta: set the service interval to 100%
11:10:29  <Brianetta> 100%?
11:10:31  <peter1138> then it won't
11:10:34  <Brianetta> I thought it was in days
11:10:45  <peter1138> not if you tick the bit that says make it % ;p
11:10:49  <Brianetta> Ah
11:10:52  <Brianetta> These options
11:10:56  <Brianetta> "tick there"
11:10:59  <Brianetta> "click here"
11:11:02  <peter1138> (mad options)
11:11:06  <Brianetta> I make my dedicated server do all that
11:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> what do those % mean?
11:12:23  <Celestar> back
11:12:29  <Celestar> what's new?
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11:12:50  <Brianetta> Celestar:
11:13:00  <Brianetta> COurtesy of some of my players
11:13:23  <Brianetta> Somebody's built massive sea-level canals all over the map
11:13:35  <Brianetta> and is running 79 ships
11:13:37  <Celestar> Brianetta: bridge-over-crossing problem is fixed
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11:13:51  <Brianetta> Celestar: It was mainly FYI in general
11:14:03  <Celestar> yeah :)
11:14:05  <RichK67> quick question; i want to subtract 1,1 from a tile; is it   tile += TileDiffXY(-1,-1) ??
11:14:05  <Brianetta> I wasn't pointing out any specific issue (:
11:14:14  <Celestar> RichK67: yes.
11:14:19  <RichK67> ty
11:14:37  <Celestar> Brianetta: how's the general echo on the feature?
11:14:37  <roboman> born_walnut arived
11:14:39  <Brianetta> 79 ships and the game isn't lagging
11:14:43  <peter1138> sea-level canals? hmm
11:14:59  <Brianetta> Celestar: It's positive.  Towns build bridges onlt the traditional way, though
11:15:18  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: 10% == service if the engine is 10% less reliable than the model's max reliability
11:15:24  <Celestar> Brianetta: luckily
11:15:31  <Celestar> Brianetta: otherwise town'd be a mess
11:15:42  <Brianetta> mess (:
11:15:53  <roboman> heh
11:15:53  <Celestar> I have a total reliability rewrite
11:16:00  <Celestar> which changes the general idea
11:16:10  <Celestar> to something more sane
11:16:16  <Celestar> opinion
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11:16:29  <Celestar> 1) every vehicle starts out with 100% reliability
11:16:37  <Celestar> 2) reliability drop depends on age of vehicle
11:16:38  <peter1138> realiability needs to drop less quickly
11:17:06  <Celestar> 3) servicing costs money (new price * loss of reliability * 0.5) and raises reliabilty to 100% again
11:17:09  <Celestar> RFC
11:17:10  <Brianetta> There needs to be an option for breakdowns even less frequent than "reduced"
11:17:34  <peter1138> Brianetta: er, yeah, i mean that :)
11:17:42  <peter1138> i'm *sure* reduced used to be a lot less than it is now
11:17:50  <peter1138> but... i don't think the code's changed
11:17:52  <Celestar> Brianetta: peter1138 what's your opinion on that idea?
11:18:28  <Celestar> me->food();
11:18:34  <peter1138> it should depend on age, yes
11:18:34  <Brianetta> Celestar: Prototypical trains should be less reliable, rising to 100% at launch
11:18:36  <peter1138> but not 100%
11:18:46  <Celestar> Brianetta: yes that was another point
11:18:51  <Celestar> peter1138: then say 99%
11:18:57  <Brianetta> 100% could mean 99%
11:19:03  <Celestar> age of vehicle == (current date - date of purchase)
11:19:08  <Celestar> not date of introduction
11:19:11  <Brianetta> Any train should be capable of breakdown
11:19:26  <Celestar> a Boeing 747 is still a VERY reliable plane, even tho it was built in the 60s
11:19:32  <Celestar> only maintenance cost have increased
11:19:47  <Celestar> cu
11:19:49  <Brianetta> And yes, any new train should be as reliable as expected
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11:20:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't think we should scrap the idea of a "max. reliability" though...
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11:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> some models are prone to be highly unreliable
11:20:42  <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause2: Perhaps we could - if the inherently less reliable trains simply lost their reliability percentage a little faster
11:20:54  <Brianetta> They could be made to run properly by continual nurse-maiding
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11:21:12  <Brianetta> which is impossible currently, as an unreliable train can break down on the way out of the depot
11:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't play with breakdown because of such rubbish ;)
11:21:52  <Brianetta> Me either
11:22:09  <Brianetta> In the late game, you can zoom out over a city and hear nothing but breakdown noises
11:22:20  <Brianetta> Even more than those blastedlevel crossings
11:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, breakdowns should rarely stop the train
11:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> usually just make it slow down
11:22:53  <Brianetta> There was a discussion on that
11:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> like with planes
11:23:19  <Darkvater> eek
11:23:24  <Brianetta>
11:23:27  <Darkvater> who's good with eclipse?
11:23:36  <Darkvater> oh he, nvm found it \;p
11:24:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, a train broken down that way should maybe immediately go for depot
11:24:29  <Brianetta> Suggested later in the thread, I believe
11:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, if proper shunting (with separating engines from wagons) is implemented, one could haul a replacement engine from the next depot, while the train goes for the next station
11:25:37  <Brianetta> Thing is, at the moment I believe that *trains* break down, not locomotives
11:25:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> and then switch engines there
11:27:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> but recombining trains must be handled differently for dualheaded trains
11:28:00  <Brianetta> Not to mention fixed rakes
11:28:14  <Brianetta> They can only be uncoupled at a depot
11:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> it is quite common that a 2x8 wagon ICE is split, and then goes to different locations, but a 8 wagon unit is rarely ever split ;)
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11:33:16  <peter1138> hmm, sea canals are cheap
11:33:49  <peter1138> way cheaper than 'normal' canals
11:34:50  <Brianetta> peter1138: Oh, yes
11:34:55  <Brianetta> Just dig down then flood
11:35:00  <Brianetta> Cheap as chips
11:35:06  <peter1138> yeah
11:35:13  <Brianetta> Also harder for opponents to demolish
11:35:28  <peter1138> and docks aren't affected by local authority rating
11:35:33  <Brianetta> Someone tried canals on my deathmatch server
11:35:33  * peter1138 ponders fixing that
11:35:50  <hylje> can you tunnel beneath canals? :D
11:35:52  <Brianetta> They ended up with ships stuck in 1x1 canal pieces
11:35:56  <Brianetta> hylje: Yes
11:35:59  <hylje> nice
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11:36:15  <peter1138> yeah, canals don't have owners... that should be fixed too
11:36:25  <Brianetta> hylje: There's no reason to tunnel under canals, though, unless you're using them
11:36:39  <Brianetta> because they have no owner and can simply be demolished
11:36:50  <Brianetta> They definitely aren't worth the cost
11:36:54  <Brianetta> not even nearly
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11:44:41  <Brianetta> openttd could do with a crng (cosmetic random number generator) of some sort to allow purely codmetic newgrfs to draw random numbers for eye-candy purposes without causing desyncs.
11:45:23  <peter1138> we have one
11:45:30  <Brianetta> cool (:
11:45:48  <peter1138> but there's no way to know if it's purely eye-candy
11:46:05  <peter1138> 1) it probably is
11:46:11  <Brianetta> newgrf isn't good enough, then
11:46:30  <Brianetta> the newgrf in question should know if it's being cosmetic or changing actual values
11:46:31  <peter1138> 2) disconnecting and going back to a server and then finding your wagons are different to before is... disorienting
11:47:01  <Brianetta> Not just wagons
11:47:10  <Brianetta> This could be applied to town buildings, too
11:47:13  <SimonRC> maybe wagon appearance could be calculated from starting date?
11:47:21  <SimonRC> oops
11:47:22  <Brianetta> SimonRC: It can, and often is
11:47:26  <SimonRC> I meant building date
11:47:35  <SimonRC> so why would they look different
11:48:07  <SimonRC> the building date of something doesn't change, so the appearance shouldn't change
11:48:50  * SimonRC goes to lunch
11:49:19  <peter1138> even buildings, it would need to store the random value in the map
11:49:38  *** Eddi|zuHause2 [i=johekr@] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
11:49:49  <peter1138> (unless you want it to change appearance every time it's drawn)
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11:55:09  <Brianetta> peter1138: What's the problem with storing it in the map?
11:55:25  <Brianetta> Doesn't need to be saved
11:55:38  <peter1138> it will be if its in the map, heh
11:56:08  <Brianetta> So there should also be a parallel array
11:56:13  <Brianetta> for map values that don't need saving
11:56:26  <Brianetta> That can be filled with all those values which can be generated
11:56:26  <peter1138> rofl
11:56:44  <Brianetta> You rofl now
11:58:44  * peter1138 checks canal mod
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11:59:42  <peter1138> that works
11:59:48  <peter1138> a bit *too* cheap now
12:01:56  <Celestar> back
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12:10:48  <peter1138> hmm, so
12:12:18  <peter1138> 1) should canals have an owner
12:12:24  <peter1138> 2) should flooding keep the owner?
12:12:39  <peter1138> 1 is vital for multiplayer, imho
12:12:59  <hylje> if you flood sealevel stuff, it shouldnt have an owner
12:13:03  <Sacro> 1: yes, and maybe charge for usage?
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12:15:34  <peter1138> hylje: that also makes canals more attractive, then
12:15:43  <peter1138> as anyone can dig up a sea-level canal
12:16:01  <hylje> and anyone could then use them
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12:21:55  <peter1138> hmm
12:22:11  <peter1138> even locks don't have an owner o_O
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12:25:19  <Sacro> lol
12:25:21  <Sacro> off to work, bye
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12:29:00  <peter1138>
12:33:32  <Tobin> Heh, ownership.
12:34:00  <Vornicus> what's that do, make it so canals are owned?
12:34:00  <Tobin> I would have called it shipownership.diff.
12:34:25  <peter1138> Vornicus: and locks
12:34:31  <Vornicus> ok
12:34:49  <Tobin> If canals will be allowed for have owner then we really need aqueducts/water tunnels.
12:35:03  <peter1138> Tobin: why?
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12:35:24  <peter1138> the owner isn't checked for vehicles
12:35:34  <Tobin> Because otherwise people can build a canal across the map and only they will be able to pass ships .
12:35:35  <Tobin> Oh?
12:35:54  <Tobin> So what stops someone from destroying their bit of canal you are using?
12:36:03  <peter1138> nothing
12:36:07  <hylje> aqueducts ftw
12:36:08  <hylje> :D
12:36:08  <Celestar> (=
12:36:12  <Celestar> ship-bridges
12:36:14  <peter1138> but if they did
12:36:19  <peter1138> you could build your own canal :)
12:36:23  <Tobin> Heh.
12:36:24  <Celestar> aqueducts are something else :)
12:36:24  <anboni> Tobin, that's the risk you take for using their canal :)
12:36:28  <peter1138> yeah
12:36:34  <peter1138> Tobin: i think it's better than currently
12:36:35  <Celestar> I need a new comp
12:36:41  <peter1138> Tobin: where if you build a canal, anyone can rip it up
12:36:45  <Tobin> peter1138: I agree.
12:37:01  <peter1138> (even locks)
12:38:56  <anboni> yikes
12:39:06  <anboni> openttd: bridge_map.h:42: IsXBridgeAbove: Assertion `MayHaveBridgeAbove(t)' failed.
12:39:06  <anboni> Aborted
12:39:06  <anboni> .
12:39:23  <peter1138> "oops"
12:39:44  <Celestar> anboni: ?
12:39:49  <Celestar> where what why?
12:40:07  <anboni> i tried placing a lock :)
12:40:24  <Celestar> in vanilla openttd or some patch?
12:40:34  <Celestar> (below a bridge I presume)
12:40:41  <anboni> vanilla 5079
12:40:52  <anboni> and nothing special in the general area
12:41:25  <anboni> cant seem to reproduce in a new game, only in my savegame
12:41:38  <Celestar> anboni: IS there a bridge below it?
12:41:42  <anboni> nope
12:41:43  <Celestar> above ..
12:41:55  <anboni> nope
12:41:57  <anboni> nothing at all
12:42:05  <anboni> just a bare piece of land next to the water
12:42:08  <Celestar> pass me the savegame and the EXACT tile where you try to build a lock
12:42:16  <anboni> dcc?
12:42:19  <Celestar> yah
12:44:01  <Celestar> anboni: there is something VERY rotten with you connection
12:44:16  <Celestar> DCC SEND from anboni [ port 0]: Redhead_Transport,_r5079.sav [2MB] <= that's not valid
12:44:26  <anboni> hmm
12:44:43  <anboni> this isn't my normal pc, maybe something is configured oddly.. hang on
12:44:57  <Celestar> use some other means of transmission (=
12:45:04  <RichK67> ive got a problem with building industries; when you click to place an industry, it sometimes finds a location nearby that it can use. does anyone know where it loops through the placement alternatives?? i need this to stop for TGP to work
12:45:37  <RichK67> ive looked in CmdBuildIndustry in industry_cmd.c, but i cant see how it varies the location
12:46:23  <Tobin> TGP?
12:46:38  <anboni> Celestar,
12:46:49  <Celestar> transmitting
12:46:53  <Celestar> anboni: what tile?
12:47:30  <anboni> Celestar, looks like i can reproduce it in a fresh savegame as well.. any tile really close to the map edge
12:47:36  <Celestar> anboni: I see
12:48:02  <Celestar> got it
12:48:18  <anboni> :)
12:48:47  <RichK67> TGP  - terragenesis perlin; it has a modified industry placement algorithm to ensure that the terrain is flat below a new industry. this is needed because TGP creates bumpier terrain. problem is that the terraforming is too agressive and can build over the town tiles; but this ONLY happens when it "relocates" from the original selected tile
12:50:03  <Celestar> anboni: it has something to do with trees, I'm sure :)
12:50:49  <anboni> you might be right there:)
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12:52:08  <[Shaman]> RichK67: Can you add something that it doesn't add a 'fuckton' of industries in big maps? If you create a custom map yourself and press add once every town has like 2/3 industries :/
12:52:20  <anboni> Celestar, yeah, any tile with trees seems to break it, even in the middle of the map
12:52:41  <Celestar> ye
12:53:26  <RichK67> [shaman] yeah, i may completely rescale towns and industries for larger maps - just increasing it as if each were a 256x256 set of industries looks horrid
12:53:32  <CIA-3> celestar * r5083 /trunk/water_cmd.c: -Fix: Assert when trying to build a lock on a tile with trees. (Thanks anboni for reporting)
12:53:58  * Celestar thinks factories and stuff should be IN towns
12:54:01  <[Shaman]> yah
12:54:18  <[Shaman]> it's better to have to click the button 3 times to accomplish the result than to click it once and having to remove 90% of what was made :P
12:54:30  <RichK67> totally agree
12:54:42  <Celestar> lol
12:54:45  <Celestar> anboni: better?
12:55:02  <anboni> lemme try
12:56:58  <Celestar> <= this is friggen incredible
12:57:42  <anboni> Celestar, looks like it's fixed now ;)
12:57:45  <Celestar> (=
12:58:33  <anboni> Celestar, that link just loads a 1x1 gif file:)
12:58:53  <Celestar> (apart from the fact that Oblivion needs about two 1900XTX Crossfire)
12:59:05  <Celestar> <= then use this link
12:59:51  <anboni> yeah, those oblivion graphics look pretty awesome
13:00:03  *** Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
13:00:20  <Celestar> anboni: if you look at the framerates on page 4, you'll be less impressed :P
13:00:32  <hylje> ask bethesda about porting their engine to ottd
13:00:47  <RichK67> Morrowind was pretty good - spent many a day just walking around enjoying the scenery
13:00:47  <anboni> i'm not that easily surprised anymore :)
13:01:01  <anboni> Oblivion is even better
13:01:10  <Celestar> RichK67: yes it was
13:01:21  <RichK67> yeah, it should be; 4 yrs later :)
13:01:22  <Celestar> RichK67: and coding modes
13:01:51  <RichK67> never coded a mod; but my MW is modded up like mad :)
13:02:29  <RichK67> anyone help on my industry_cmd.c problem?
13:02:52  <Celestar> damnit
13:03:05  <Celestar> what kinda comp do I need to run Oblivion?
13:03:19  * Celestar looks at the Ultra 40
13:03:42  <anboni> runs great on my athlon 4000+ with Geforce 7800GTX
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13:03:54  <Celestar> hm.
13:03:57  <Celestar> X2 or not? ;)
13:04:00  <anboni> (obviously not with the top settings)
13:04:01  <anboni> nope
13:04:18  <Celestar> I'm thinking for getting a 7600GT
13:04:23  <Celestar> (maybe to of them)
13:04:49  <Celestar> is it multithreaded?
13:05:06  <anboni> dunno, my cpu isn't really :)
13:05:10  * Celestar goes checking the Oblivion CPU charts
13:05:42  <Celestar> well
13:06:04  <Celestar> considering a 2.2GHz Dual Core outperforms a 2.8 GHz single core, it might be
13:06:20  <anboni> yeah, guess so
13:06:20  <Celestar>
13:07:12  <Celestar> test is run with 1900XT crossfire :P
13:08:08  <RichK67> gotta go
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13:08:17  <Celestar> "What this graph proves is that our Oblivion Gate benchmark is really only CPU bound if you've got a pair of X1900 XTs in CrossFire"
13:08:28  <anboni> heh
13:08:51  <Celestar> maybe I needa get two of those
13:08:54  <anboni> what defines "progress" when it comes to determing if a train is lost?
13:08:57  <Celestar> the bigger Q is how to cool them
13:09:30  <hylje> liquid nitrogen ?
13:09:37  <anboni> get a coolermaster Stacker 830 case and put a crossflow fan in it?:)
13:09:39  <Prof_Frink> nah.
13:09:51  <Prof_Frink> Liquid Hydrogen.
13:09:52  <anboni> (or simply mount 4x 12cm fans in the side)
13:10:27  <Celestar> well
13:10:32  <Celestar> I like the U40's cooling system
13:10:55  <Celestar> I got one here
13:11:03  <Celestar> 2 passively cooled Opteron 280
13:11:55  <Celestar> the bigger problem is to cool the GPUs
13:12:08  <Celestar> Zalman Reserator maybe
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13:12:30  <anboni> imo, the problem isn't so much -cooling- them.. it's cooling them -quietly- :)
13:12:37  <Celestar> well
13:12:41  <Celestar> the U40 is very quiet
13:12:51  <Celestar> and a Reserator is almost silent
13:12:55  <Prof_Frink> Celestar: use a heat engine runnning off the CPU to power a heat pump to cool the GPUs
13:13:04  <Celestar> hehe
13:13:17  <Celestar> however, the U40 comes at a price :(
13:13:54  <Celestar>
13:15:06  <Celestar> I'm out a bit
13:15:12  <anboni> cya
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13:20:37  <hylje> from the sun u40 feature page: "A choice of multiple OpenGL NVIDIA models lets you optimize or upgrade the Ultra 40 Workstation to suit a range of needs, from word processing to multi-display CAD visualization."
13:20:49  <hylje> word processing needs SLi'd gpus? :p
13:21:02  <anboni> definately :)
13:21:44  <anboni> high resolution, 256mb textured, 3d fucking paper clip :)
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14:13:33  <Bjarni> 	<peter1138>	Bjarni: any comments on my autoreplace diff? <-- I'm not sure I like it. I would prefer my own change where all engines are one unit and then let the current code for keep length do the work
14:13:54  <Bjarni> using a count of vehicles in a train to get the length is outdated
14:19:01  <qball> congratz on the article in TUX magazine
14:20:11  <Bjarni> URL?
14:20:38  <qball> hmm it's subscribe only
14:20:50  <Bjarni> that's not fair
14:20:57  <Bjarni> they write about me, but I can't see it :(
14:21:22  <qball>
14:21:51  <qball> register and you can read it
14:21:55  <qball> it's severall pages long
14:22:47  <Bjarni> Subscriptions are free
14:22:51  <Mizipzor> im having a real hard time trying to get my trains go to service... it seems that sometimes they simply refuse :P
14:22:52  <Bjarni> now we are talking
14:23:04  <Bjarni> but it is the linux world after all ;)
14:23:35  <Bjarni> Mizipzor: I bet the train drivers are just so pissed at their manager, that they refuse :P
14:23:48  <Mizipzor> Bjarni, hehe probably something like that :P
14:23:55  <Mizipzor> any known bugs?
14:24:15  <Mizipzor> ive set them to 30 days... but theyve been runnning for a couple of years now
14:24:26  <Mizipzor> 0% reliability, break every second tile :P
14:24:44  <Mizipzor> and im SO tired of making every train manually go to service
14:24:45  <izhirahider> qball: what's the article about?
14:25:17  <qball> eeuh let me do a guess
14:25:23  <qball> I know
14:25:26  <qball> torcs
14:25:29  <peter1138> reliability seems to go down too quickly...
14:25:39  <peter1138> so disable breakdowns ;)
14:25:56  <Mizipzor> bah :P
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14:28:36  <peter1138> Bjarni: what do you think about giving canals/locks an owner?
14:29:26  <ln-> i'm not bjarni, but if that would limit competitors' access to those canals, that would be really silly.
14:29:37  <peter1138> it doesn't
14:29:42  <Bjarni> hmm
14:29:48  <Darkvater> qball: can you put the PDF up somewhere?
14:29:48  <peter1138> it only limits competitors ability to remove the canals
14:30:02  <Bjarni> actually what would the change be compared to now?
14:30:19  <peter1138> Bjarni: if you lay a canal / lock, anyone can remove it
14:30:28  <Darkvater> qball: eg download the PDF and put it somewhere? I can't even register at the damn site
14:30:34  <peter1138> as they're bloody expensive anyway, i don't think that's right
14:30:42  <Darkvater> it complains that I should fill in my address where there aren't even any fields for it
14:31:05  <Bjarni> Darkvater: LOL
14:31:08  <Bjarni> bug
14:31:08  <Bjarni> :P
14:31:44  <peter1138> Bjarni: best bit is, i've done the patch, and it's pretty small
14:31:45  <Darkvater> anyhow, I hate those fucking subscription sites
14:31:48  <Darkvater> especially if it's free
14:31:50  <Bjarni> Darkvater: DCC
14:31:54  <Darkvater> just like bullshit
14:32:54  <Darkvater> bjarni you ARE slot :(
14:32:58  <Darkvater> 16:32  Bjarni GET: 611kB of 3MB (18%) - 12.20kB/s - ETA 00:03:42 - TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf
14:33:10  <qball> Darkvater: you got it ?
14:33:11  <Darkvater> I haven't had such speeds since I was on dial-up
14:33:18  <Darkvater> qball: where?
14:33:24  <qball> well from Bjarni
14:33:31  <Darkvater> 16:32 < Darkvater> 16:32  Bjarni GET: 611kB of 3MB (18%) - 12.20kB/s - ETA 00:03:42 - TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf
14:33:45  <Darkvater> I am getting it ;)
14:33:51  <qball> kay
14:34:02  <Darkvater> but I'm very impatient ;p
14:34:14  <Bjarni> 	<Darkvater>	bjarni you ARE slot :( <-- I think you mean slow
14:34:22  <Darkvater> :)
14:34:28  <Bjarni> being a slot... I will not even comment on that
14:34:40  <Bjarni> :P
14:34:54  <Darkvater> my point still stands though. Really bad to max out at 10KB/s
14:34:56  * Prof_Frink puts 50p into Bjarni
14:35:04  <Darkvater> 16:34  Bjarni GET: 1MB of 3MB (45%) - 8.46kB/s - ETA 00:03:34 - TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf
14:35:07  <Darkvater> T_T
14:35:12  <Bjarni> and yes, my ISP decided that I don't need more than 128 k upstream, and I have yet to call and get it changed again
14:35:12  <Darkvater> qball: are you faster? :)
14:35:22  <Bjarni> huh
14:35:38  <Bjarni> now it slowed to 200 bytes/s
14:35:38  <Bjarni> o_O
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14:35:45  <Bjarni> my connection is not THAT slow
14:35:59  <Darkvater> it IS
14:36:03  <Darkvater> 1MB of 3MB (50%) - 6.97kB/s - ETA 00:03:58
14:36:06  <qball> Darkvater: I am
14:36:22  <Darkvater> gogo gadget-send ^_^
14:36:47  <qball> dcc send done
14:36:53  <qball> accept will ya
14:37:10  <Darkvater> sorry
14:37:17  <Darkvater> 16:37  Bjarni GET: 2MB of 3MB (75%) - 8.01kB/s - ETA 00:01:40 - TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf
14:37:21  <Darkvater> 16:37  qball GET: 250kB of 3MB (7%) - 62.47kB/s - ETA 00:00:49 - TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf
14:37:24  <Darkvater> heh
14:37:58  <Darkvater> 16:37  Bjarni GET: 2MB of 3MB (90%) - 8.45kB/s - ETA 00:00:37 - TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf
14:38:02  <Darkvater> 16:37  qball GET: 3MB of 3MB (98%) - 73.08kB/s - ETA 00:00:00 - TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf
14:40:19  <qball> only slightly faster
14:41:39  <Darkvater> *slightly* ;p
14:41:53  <Darkvater> 16:37 DCC received file TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf [3MB] from qball in 00:00:46 [72.36kB/s]
14:41:56  <Darkvater> 16:38 DCC received file TUX_Issue14_June2006.pdf [3MB] from Bjarni in 00:06:24 [8.67kB/s]
14:42:49  <qball> I could have sended it to you around 100 times faster
14:43:00  <qball> but that required me todo an extra ssh
14:43:45  <Darkvater> don't think the university shell server could handle that ;p
14:44:28  <qball> easily
14:44:40  <qball> I got severall machines running there
14:44:56  <qball> with ssh access
14:45:06  <Darkvater> no I mean mine
14:45:12  <qball> I kinda doubt you could handle it
14:45:16  <qball> :D
14:45:19  <qball> aah
14:48:33  <Darkvater> OpenTTD takes over where
14:48:33  <Darkvater> Transport Tycoon Deluxe left off and adds a wealth of improvements and
14:48:33  <Darkvater> new features, including bigger maps, new and significantly improved artificial
14:48:34  <Darkvater> intelligence (AI),
14:48:41  <Darkvater> eh... the AI ;p
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14:49:38  <Mizipzor> i thought openttd didnt change the AI in any way at all?
14:49:49  <Mizipzor> i guess i was wrong then :P where was that taken from?
14:50:08  <Darkvater> we have a NewAI whcih only does road
14:50:19  <Darkvater> tuxmagazine
14:50:21  <Mizipzor> oh
14:50:36  <Mizipzor> is it the tuxmagazine youre sending around?
14:51:13  <Darkvater> yeah
14:51:20  <Mizipzor> is it free?
14:51:35  <Darkvater> yeah
14:54:31  <Mizipzor> there, grabbed it from the website :)
14:54:43  <Mizipzor> afk
14:56:13  * XeryusTC fetched it too :)
14:56:41  <Darkvater> they guy gives some kind of tutorial on building a simple route between a coal mine and a power station
14:56:50  <Darkvater> I don't think it'll work though
14:56:55  <Darkvater> and is waay to cumbersome
14:57:00  <roboman> gnight
14:57:06  * Darkvater thinks he never heard of drag&drop
14:57:08  <Darkvater> bye
14:57:22  *** roboman is now known as robobed
14:57:32  <Born_Acorn> robbed eh.
14:57:35  <Born_Acorn> See a policeman.
14:58:25  <Born_Acorn> If you become proficient in shortcuts, drag and drop becomes the noobs way!
14:59:37  <Darkvater> ?
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15:02:26  <peter1138> Darkvater: canals/locks... give them an owner?
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15:04:27  <peter1138> (2.5KB patch, heh)
15:04:46  <Darkvater> hmm..bit strange. they don't have owners in real life, but then again never would a single company build canals
15:05:10  <peter1138> airports ;p
15:05:19  <Darkvater> ;p
15:05:44  <peter1138> it would make canals less useless in a multiplayer game
15:06:19  <peter1138> and... originally companies *did* build canals.
15:06:26  <Darkvater> hmm I think owners are fine for canals
15:06:47  <Darkvater> did you add a cost-function for canals? Eg if competitors use it they pay X-amount for every tile traversed?
15:06:52  <anboni> if it helps gameplay, i say f*** realism :)
15:06:52  <peter1138> no
15:07:02  <peter1138> if i did, that would be separate
15:07:04  <Darkvater> or we should leave that to the balancing part
15:07:13  <peter1138> *nod*
15:07:52  <peter1138> i'll commit it then
15:08:10  <Darkvater> good
15:08:56  <Prof_Frink> peter1138! ownedcanals!
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15:10:42  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5084 /trunk/ (water_cmd.c water_map.h): - Add owner attribute to canals and locks. This makes them more useful in multiplayer games, as before, anyone could delete any canal or lock tile. This doesn't affect whose ships can use whose canals or locks.
15:12:29  <Celestar> back
15:12:55  <Celestar> hi Darkvater got a sec?
15:13:14  <Darkvater> sec's gone
15:13:46  <Celestar> good
15:14:10  <Darkvater> so tell me
15:14:18  <Celestar> Darkvater: there are two patches of interest, one is concening the console patch stuff, one about macros.h
15:14:23  <Celestar> your opinion on that?
15:14:34  <Darkvater> macros is good, shouldn't even be a question
15:14:39  <Darkvater> console-patch?
15:14:39  <Celestar> ok
15:14:40  <Celestar> mergning
15:14:43  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5085 /trunk/macros.h: - Fix (FS#198): add parentheses to CHANCE16*() (and GENERAL_SPRITE_COLOR) macro parameters (thanks to ASM)
15:14:43  <Celestar> merging
15:14:50  <Darkvater> auch
15:14:57  <Celestar> Darkvater: <= this one
15:14:58  <peter1138> hmm?
15:14:59  <peter1138> oh
15:14:59  <peter1138> heh
15:15:00  <Celestar> lol @ peter1138  :P
15:15:36  <peter1138> hmm, should've waited. now i'll get the blame it if breaks ;p
15:15:52  <Darkvater> ah yes, the console. I am not happy how it turned out to be in my diff :s. Perhaps we can change it back how it was before
15:15:54  <Celestar> you alsways get the blame :P
15:15:55  <Darkvater> donnu
15:16:00  <Celestar> huh?
15:19:58  <peter1138> my next bug: building in a dock ignores town authority rating
15:20:03  <peter1138> err
15:20:04  <peter1138> -in
15:20:30  <peter1138> one line to fix...
15:21:29  <Darkvater> hardly worth it
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15:22:32  <peter1138> i've seen people destroying towns and placing docks in it to build it back up o_O
15:22:50  <Darkvater> docks as in ship-docks?
15:22:57  <peter1138> yea
15:23:05  <Darkvater> ..
15:23:12  <Darkvater> I cannot fathom this, got a pic :)
15:23:36  <peter1138> fraid not
15:23:47  <peter1138> basically demolish all but a little square
15:23:55  <peter1138> place canals around it
15:24:07  <peter1138> put docks in
15:24:17  <peter1138> pretty pointless exercise really
15:24:22  <Darkvater> now won't the TA refuse demolishment after a few tries?
15:24:52  <peter1138> not if you do it the right way (big buildings first)
15:24:59  <peter1138> well, they do
15:25:08  <peter1138> but bribes / trees ...
15:25:15  <Darkvater> he
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15:37:05  <peter1138> backport the macros patch?
15:37:52  <Darkvater> well if you want but I like backporting stuff in order better
15:39:35  <peter1138> hem
15:39:41  <peter1138> point
15:39:48  <peter1138> Bjarni: autoreplace fix?
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15:47:58  <RichK67> hi all
15:49:33  <anboni> hi
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15:59:53  <CIA-3> richk * r5086 /branch/MiniIN/ (47 files in 5 dirs): [MiniIN]: Sync with trunk. r5055-5085
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16:17:23  <brohism> Is there any way I can get the required data files besides from an original CD?
16:17:56  <hylje> you might want to consider pirating
16:18:07  <Noldo> no morally acceptable ways
16:18:17  <Sacro> hey all
16:18:25  <brohism> i looked at bittorrent, but there's almost nothing there for transport tycoon deluxe
16:18:41  <hylje> it might be morally acceptable since no one loses anything from pirating content from obsolete abandonware
16:18:45  <RichK67> go to owen rudge's website... i think he has the full d/l there
16:19:00  <brohism> ok, i'll take a look
16:19:01  <brohism> thanks
16:19:26  <XeryusTC> brohism: has a copy iirc
16:20:04  <anboni> there's a list of download locations somewhere on
16:20:26  <Prof_Frink> topic #8037 IIRC
16:20:37  <RichK67>
16:20:43  <brohism> yeah, he has the full game there
16:20:51  <brohism> i'll get it from there, thanks
16:20:51  <Prof_Frink> 3407 even
16:21:06  <Prof_Frink> I'm still mostly asleep
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17:06:41  <Bjarni> 	<peter1138>	Bjarni: autoreplace fix? <-- I already said that I think the right solution is to make dualheaded engines into one unit just like articulated engines are one unit
17:07:08  <peter1138> yeah
17:07:12  <peter1138> so do it? :P
17:07:14  <Bjarni> it's inconsistent to make a Dm3 one unit while a DMU (which is only 2/3 of that length) into two units
17:07:31  <Bjarni> I already did, but then you and Darkvater disagreed with it
17:09:01  <Bjarni> so unless you will stop saying stuff like "that's stupid", when I will not commit my patch
17:11:44  <glx> version in SaveOrLoad() (saveload.c) is a write-only variable
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17:35:56  <Ihmemies> still at 0.47
17:36:07  <Ihmemies> no progress AT ALL! :D
17:37:40  <peter1138> none!
17:37:44  <peter1138> but wait!
17:37:48  <peter1138> we're still on 0.4!
17:37:54  <peter1138> (.7)
17:39:07  <Ihmemies> I want 1.0
17:39:28  <anboni> why would you want 1.0?
17:40:00  <Ihmemies> because it looks cooler than 0.4
17:40:03  <Ihmemies> (.7)
17:40:33  <anboni> well.. i kinda think r5086 looks cooler still...
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17:47:21  <Bjarni> Ihmemies: well, why is 1.0.7 cooler?
17:47:48  <Ihmemies> because it gives an impression of a more finished product than 0.47 :PO
17:47:50  <Bjarni> I mean if it is the same software, then why do you care about the version number?
17:48:20  <anboni> maybe someone should compile the current nightly with version number 1.0, just for Ihmemies
17:48:41  <Ihmemies> that would be awesome :P
17:48:46  <Ihmemies> for win32, thank you
17:51:44  <Prof_Frink> Ihmemies: That is why Ubuntu is better than WinXP. XP is 5.1, Dapper is 6.06
17:51:52  <Bjarni> well
17:52:01  <Bjarni> how about compiling revision 1 as version 1
17:52:31  <anboni> is revision 1 even a playable game?:)
17:52:39  <Bjarni> yeah
17:52:47  <Prof_Frink> rev1 of newsvn anyway
17:53:10  <Prof_Frink> although, it was released to the public as playable
17:55:18  * anboni checks out rev1 just for shits and giggles
17:56:15  <anboni> blegh.. forgot to install svn after reinstalling...
17:57:51  <Ihmemies> revision management is for nooobs :(
17:58:15  <peter1138> bah, anyone got a spare 9v battery?
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17:58:57  <Bjarni> yeah
17:59:02  <Bjarni> I think
17:59:03  <Bjarni> why?
17:59:38  * lws1984 waves a 9v battery around
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17:59:46  <peter1138> cos my smoke alarm's going "bip!"
17:59:58  <Ihmemies> uninstall the battery
18:00:05  <Ihmemies> without power source it will stay quiet
18:00:07  <peter1138> won't help
18:00:11  <peter1138> it's mains powered o_O
18:00:23  <Ihmemies> ?? why does it need 9v battery then? :P
18:00:30  <ln-> backup power, probably
18:00:33  <peter1138> in case the mains fails
18:00:35  <Ihmemies> omfg
18:00:56  <SchAmane> peter1138, ukrainian utf-8 translation is amazing
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18:07:13  <ln-> i want contact info to the latest finnish translator, please.
18:07:45  <hylje> got annoyed? yes sign me up
18:08:45  <ln-> some enhacements, but some annoying de-enhancements too.
18:09:30  <hylje> enchancements
18:09:34  <hylje> fyi
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18:12:37  <ln-> the first one was a typo, but the word is indeed 'enhancement', not 'enChancement'
18:12:54  <ln-> fyi
18:12:57  <peter1138> enchantment
18:13:25  <hylje> :o
18:13:38  <ln-> buenos dias. encantado.
18:14:03  <ln-> ja tuolla on yhdyssanavirhekin jonkun toimesta tehtynä.
18:16:06  <hylje> yhdys  sana  virhe :P
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18:17:04  <anboni> omg, rev1 doesn't even compile for me :)
18:22:16  <ln-> puhumattakaan että yhdessä kohtaa on käytetty sanaa "junarata".
18:22:36  <hylje> minkä sijaan
18:22:48  <ln-> rautatie
18:23:06  <hylje> synonyymei, mutta yhtenäisyys on parempi
18:23:59  <ln-> "junarata" on kielitoimiston sanakirjan mukaan arkinen termi, rautatie on se oikea.
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18:26:01  <hylje> hienoa
18:26:01  <RichK67> ping devs
18:27:19  <ln-> ja rautatieharrastajat (jollaiseksi en itseäni laske) ovat kielitoimistoakin tarkempia asiasta.
18:28:09  <RichK67> is there a function that tells me if a square is clear?? (ie. i want to know if it is only ground, trees, or fields)  CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR seems to check if you can afford to clear the square)
18:28:21  <RichK67> which is not the same thing
18:28:21  <hylje> harrastajat on _aina_ tarkkoja termeistä
18:29:01  <ln-> ihmetyttää miksi timanttikaivos on pitänyt muuttaa jalokivikaivokseksi
18:29:36  <hylje> koodissa on WTFiä, käännöksissäkin näköjään
18:30:43  <RichK67> anyone in here want to be helpful??
18:30:45  <hylje> no
18:33:46  <Noldo> ln-: missä stringissä se oli?
18:34:22  <ln-> kumpi? junarata? jossain cheat-valikon tekstissä.
18:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> RichK67: maybe make it so the tiles (houses, roads) are not clearable during the generation?
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18:35:01  <Eddi|zuHause> (like during the game, where the local authority does not let you)
18:35:19  <RichK67> thats what im doing
18:35:34  <RichK67> its been an order of magnitude more complicated than it looked
18:36:06  <ln-> i don't know what you are doing, but i can give you the standard answer: you can't do it, you would have to rewrite half of the game.
18:37:35  <Eddi|zuHause> RichK67: otherwise, you might just check if it is a grass tile
18:40:31  <RichK67> In: yeah, helpful ;)
18:41:00  <RichK67> eddi: im checking the tiletype directly; its ok if CLEAR, or TREES. fail on all else
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18:43:16  <peter1138> tronicus
18:43:47  <Darkvater> < out a bit
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18:45:40  <Darkvater> sweet, anyone was watching the Nadal game?
18:46:05  <RichK67> great!! i think ive got it
18:46:14  <Darkvater> RichK67: isn't it IsClearTile() or something?
18:46:19  <RichK67> hi DV... airports :) :) :)
18:46:34  <Darkvater> eh yes, I am not here
18:46:38  <RichK67> lol
18:46:41  <Darkvater> this is my fully automated Darkbot
18:46:58  <Darkvater> which is *SO* sophisticated you'd think it was a live person
18:47:00  <RichK67> im checking for MP_CLEAR and MP_TREES directly; works i think... :)
18:47:13  <Darkvater> use the accessor functions!
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18:51:23  <RichK67> when you produce a list of them, i will use them; they are a secret undocumented feature IMO
18:55:02  <RichK67> gotta go... bbl
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19:05:25  <Noldo> it there doxygen stuff about the accessors?
19:05:31  <peter1138> looking in *_map.h isn't that hard :)
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19:17:37  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5087 /trunk/newgrf_spritegroup.c: - NewGRF: Fix thinko in returning a calculated callback result
19:23:16  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5088 /trunk/macros.h: - Add another set of parentheses, missed in r5085, somehow... (thanks ASM)
19:26:27  <ln-> what's this "Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe" that is talking about in the title?
19:26:51  <hylje> ln-: i dunno :p
19:27:11  <Noldo> ln-: ask MiHaMiX
19:27:17  <peter1138> no eye dear
19:27:27  <ln-> mihamix: what's this "Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe" that is talking about in the title?
19:27:42  <peter1138> heh
19:28:22  <ln-> keep in mind that "Transport Tycoon Deluxe" is someone's trademark.
19:28:36  <ln-> a registered trademark.
19:30:09  <Noldo> ln-: report it as a bug
19:34:13  <Prof_Frink> Hmm, 'transport[ _]tycoon' appears quite a few times in teh source
19:34:28  <Prof_Frink> Some of them are legit, some less so
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19:40:12  <TL|Away> Darkvater: can you send me the source of your bott? ;)
19:41:06  <lws1984> question for OTTD devs: what is the maxium limit for vehicle orders and is there a way to expand it?
19:41:54  <Tron> KUDr: you broke the trolly AI in r4987. It never can find a route to build since then.
19:42:17  <KUDr> hmm, will look at it
19:46:39  <Tron> KUDr: when?
19:46:49  <KUDr> totay
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19:47:07  <KUDr> and tommorrow if it will not be enough
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20:00:44  <TL|Away> Darkvater: what ever happened to the demo stuff?
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20:14:31  <KUDr> Tron: what i must do to reproduce the problem? my AIs built railways and also roads and are making money
20:14:44  <Tron> trolly AI, not the default AI
20:15:06  <KUDr> trolly is that new experimental alpha AI?
20:15:17  <Tron> yes
20:15:22  <KUDr> aha, ok
20:15:26  <KUDr> will try
20:15:32  <Tron> (for a certain definition of "new")
20:20:24  <KUDr> you are right, they do nothing
20:24:23  <Tron> openttd -d ai=9
20:25:42  <KUDr> thanks
20:26:08  <KUDr> debug_level ai=9
20:26:18  <KUDr> can it be the same?
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20:42:54  <peter1138> funny that
20:43:31  <KUDr> heh, yes
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20:59:24  <peter1138> << wtf?
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21:00:14  <peter1138> that terraform bug needs fixing/...
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21:02:00  <anboni> oh wow.. who would've thought about trying something like that :)
21:02:46  <anboni> omg
21:03:05  <anboni> a computer player is redoing the landscape.. and my track is actually getting raised and lowered with it....
21:05:40  <Born_Acorn> Its like autoslope in TTDPatch, but with no foundations!
21:06:24  <anboni> hmm.. can the AI's redo the landscape without any cost?
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21:08:30  <glx> anboni: yes but AI is too dumb to build routes efficiently
21:08:42  *** sw4y [] has quit ["Odletam do paralelniho vesmiru..."]
21:08:42  <anboni> guess so.. maybe it's only fair :)
21:08:52  <anboni> i was just going to say.. someone forgot to put the I into AI :)
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21:14:26  <anboni> hmm.. this is interesting.. i took control of another company (through the cheat) and tried to have it borrow more money, but it isn't working.. current loan is 600k, max loan is 900k, but when i click borrow, it flickers briefly but stays at 600k
21:14:34  <glx> anboni: hmm indeed AI pays for terraforming
21:14:47  <anboni> when i click repay, it drops to 450k and stays there
21:15:02  <anboni> glx, no it doesnt, from what i've seen
21:15:34  <anboni> hmm.. this loan stuff looks like a display bug.. guess that's to be expected of a cheat
21:16:12  <peter1138> if the ai is controlling it, it's probably setting the loan back...
21:16:23  <anboni> yeah, but i wasn't returning control to the ai yet
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21:16:45  <peter1138> it doesn't 'leave'
21:16:52  <glx> AI still control is company (coop mode :) )
21:17:30  <anboni> it still doesnt seem right, because when i start "spending" the money (modify land), it suddenly turns out i have borrowed the maximum amount and actually have it in the back
21:17:32  <anboni> bank*
21:17:32  <peter1138> the moment you place a bit of track to optimize an AI's route, it'll wonder wtf is happening, and remove the thing
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21:22:02  <amix> Here is OpenTTD running on MorphOS
21:22:05  <amix>
21:22:05  <amix> :)
21:22:10  <amix> very nice game!
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21:24:45  <peter1138> but
21:24:49  <peter1138> no newstations!
21:25:02  <lws1984> lol
21:25:28  <amix> peter1138: ?
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21:38:05  <peter1138> nini
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22:32:42  <[Shaman]> arg
22:32:48  <[Shaman]> Failed to fetch Unable to fetch file, server said 'Failed to open file. '
22:32:55  <[Shaman]> no svn for me :/
22:33:39  <ln-> why aren't you using a mirror?
22:34:09  <[Shaman]> never bothered putting them in the list :p
22:34:38  <[Shaman]> how odd, when instlaling libsdl and such it suddenly wants to do a massive update O_O
22:34:38  <[Shaman]> 24 upgraded, 47 newly installed, 1 to remove and 198 not upgraded.
22:34:38  <[Shaman]> Need to get 33.0MB/34.7MB of archives.
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22:35:20  <ln-> you'd better bother.
22:36:55  <Sacro> hmm
22:38:58  <ln-> why waste trans-atlantic bandwidth by getting packages from Minnesota, while there are tens of mirrors in Europe?
22:39:59  <ln-> could be best for you.
22:40:38  * [Shaman] nods
22:40:48  <ln-> just run this command as root: sed -i s/ /etc/apt/sources.list
22:41:28  <[Shaman]> screeeeeenspam
22:41:44  <[Shaman]> I.. know how to edit sources.list :p
22:42:00  <[Shaman]> svn updated \e/
22:42:45  <[Shaman]> now lets see how them guis work :o
22:43:00  <ln-> shouldn't you update the whole system if you have 198 packages that are not upgraded?
22:43:19  <[Shaman]> no cuz apt will break the things that -do- work
22:43:33  <[Shaman]> and it's only a simple FS with files on it that don't wish to be broken
22:43:36  <ln-> is that debian unstable?
22:43:50  <[Shaman]> it -used- to be up for more than a year
22:43:56  <[Shaman]> untill some ass pulled the cable out
22:44:02  <[Shaman]> (namely me)
22:44:19  <[Shaman]> now it's been up for 44 days
22:44:26  <[Shaman]> 00:43:20 up 44 days, 7:08, 1 user, load average: 0.01, 0.06, 0.02
22:44:28  <Jpl> 48 days here.
22:44:42  <ln-> it's not very secure if you have that many packages waiting to be upgraded.
22:44:51  <[Shaman]> It
22:44:57  <[Shaman]> is not very accessible either :P
22:45:10  <[Shaman]> network FS, not intarweb FS ;)
22:45:22  <ln-> why do you think apt would break it?
22:45:28  <[Shaman]> because it has in the past
22:45:59  <[Shaman]> spending 1 hour for apt to update, then spending 14 to fix what it b0rked
22:46:08  <ln-> is that debian unstable?
22:46:25  <ln-> or what?
22:46:31  <[Shaman]> not at all
22:46:40  <ln-> sarge? woody?
22:46:45  <ln-> sid? etch?
22:46:49  <[Shaman]> last time it was woody iirc
22:47:10  <[Shaman]> this one's sarge
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22:47:41  <[Shaman]> it's only 131 that 'need' updates
22:47:43  <[Shaman]> not 198 :P
22:48:48  <[Shaman]> hm
22:48:56  <[Shaman]> that list isn't even -that- bad
22:48:59  * [Shaman] upgrades
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22:57:25  <ydobon> can i get some open ttd help here?
22:57:38  <[Shaman]> static const Widget _build_road_widgets[] << what's in there would be the part where the 'road building' menu thingie is right?
22:57:51  <[Shaman]> (Aka if i fuck around with them values my menu might get b0rked
22:58:51  <glx> widgets are GUI elements
22:59:32  <glx> and you're right
22:59:32  <ydobon> i have some question regarding "last_mo_transported" in Industry structure, anyone can help?
22:59:33  * [Shaman] nods
22:59:34  <[Shaman]> thanks
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22:59:54  <[Shaman]> I'm going to see if I can make some cosmetical changes to the build guis :P
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23:02:02  <[Shaman]> glx: If i were to 'move' buttons around, what defines what they 'do', their array index?
23:02:37  <glx> the wndproc uses their index yes
23:02:45  <[Shaman]> bah :P
23:03:14  <[Shaman]> aka moving buttons around > chaos array
23:03:36  <glx> you can move buttons without moving them in the array
23:03:47  <[Shaman]> yeh
23:03:50  <glx> just change their position
23:03:57  <[Shaman]> but i was hoping i could keep the array ordened in some way as well
23:04:20  <[Shaman]> as in, make their location equal their array index if possible :P
23:04:25  <[Shaman]> but that'd require more changes
23:04:40  <glx> yes in BuildRoadToolbWndProc
23:04:55  <ydobon> here it goes: in industry_cmd.c -> UpdateIndustryStatistics(...) there is a line: 	pct = min(i->last_mo_transported[0] * 256 / i->last_mo_production[0],255); /*and then:*/ i->pct_transported[0] = pct; /*my question is: how come i can't put my goods transported percentage above 80% even though i have 12 trains constantly picking up goods at the same time?
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23:07:20  <ydobon> guess ill have to use the forum:(
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23:20:21  <[Shaman]> glx: Window size is changed with the size of the panels on the widget or is that specified elsewhere?
23:20:56  <[Shaman]> nm, i think WindowDesc does that :o
23:21:15  <glx> _build_road_desc I think
23:21:34  * [Shaman] nods
23:21:35  <[Shaman]> thanks :)
23:22:03  <[Shaman]> C isn't -that- hard if you look at it long enough xD
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23:22:42  <Ihmemies> just learn C# :P
23:23:19  <[Shaman]> I know C#.
23:23:21  <glx> Ihmemies: not useful for openttd :)
23:23:25  <[Shaman]> only OpenTTD isn't in C#
23:23:48  <[Shaman]> so not much use to use for all the framework things :p
23:25:59  <[Shaman]> Hm, before i start fiddling with it, might want to take a look at if it compiles WITHOUT modifications :P
23:26:53  <[Shaman]> hmf.. png/zlib errors could have known that >_<
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23:34:50  <[Shaman]> Hiya RichK67.
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23:35:17  <RichK67> hi
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23:42:19  <[Shaman]> how's minty comming along?
23:43:34  <RichK67> im bughunting in TGP this weekend (so far), so all ive done is sync with trunk - but that adds new bridges :)
23:50:20  <[Shaman]> :)
23:50:43  <[Shaman]> I'd stay away from Matryx when he gets back or he'll try to lick you :p
23:51:01  <[Shaman]> he's been like "Can't wait for bridges to be added to miniIN"
23:51:08  <[Shaman]> for.. the past while?
23:51:38  <RichK67> lol
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23:56:16  <RichK67> just about to add the signal auto-complete
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23:56:29  <[Shaman]> \e/
23:56:38  <[Shaman]> Hm, maybe i can write a quick .net tool for them widgets
23:56:47  <[Shaman]> doing it manually is a tad.. annoying :/
23:57:35  <RichK67> yeah, the gui needs a gui :)
23:58:17  <[Shaman]> exactly!
23:58:30  <[Shaman]> no seriously, manually modifying the widget thingies is such a pain :p
23:58:45  <[Shaman]> dragging them to their correct places would be -so- much easyer :p
23:58:49  <RichK67> totally agree - its no.1 thing that puts me off redesigning my guis
23:59:41  <glx> the gui system needs a total rewrite

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