Log for #openttd on 12th June 2006:
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00:24:21  <bulio> I don't really understand how signals work
00:24:29  <bulio> they turn red if 2 trains are on hte same track?
00:24:32  <Sacro> bulio: in what wya?
00:24:45  <Sacro> bulio: a signel is red if the block in front is occupoed
00:24:48  <Sacro> *occupied
00:25:51  <bulio> is there any signal tutorials?
00:26:10  <bulio> secondly, on this page
00:26:11  <bulio>
00:26:32  <bulio> the semi-faq strategy guide, what map does it use?
00:26:51  <bulio> I'd like to use it, but with the smaller starting cities and no rails or roads built
00:29:10  <bulio> any idea?
00:29:23  <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to read
00:29:48  <bulio> thanks
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00:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but ignore anything about PBS... that is not implemented in OTTD
00:31:10  <bulio> ok
00:31:28  <bulio> has openttd been making a lot of progress?
00:31:32  <bulio> I really like the game
00:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah
00:33:08  <bulio> now lal I gotta do is find the tutorial map, but empty
00:33:11  <bulio> *all
00:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> why? just generate an own map and play around...
00:34:28  <bulio> I prefer the flatness of that map
00:34:40  <bulio> makes it easy for me to build a network and learn how to properly play
00:34:48  <bulio> there's nothing to get in the way
00:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> generate a very flat map (in the difficulty options)
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00:37:40  <jong> hi, half of my fonts stopped working after updating my world... any clue on what to recompile? system is in near unusable state right now
00:38:29  <jong> oops, ECHAN
00:43:32  <Sacro> jong: what distro?
00:43:45  <Sacro> jong: "fc-cache" is worth a try :)
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01:13:53  <CIA-3> richk * r5232 /branch/MiniIN/ (7 files in 4 dirs):
01:13:53  <CIA-3> [MiniIN]: [ItalianTownNames]: Added Italian Town Name generator.
01:13:53  <CIA-3> Many thanks to Sidewinder for MiniIN version of patch.
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01:28:49  <CIA-3> richk * r5233 /branch/MiniIN/train_gui.c: [MiniIN]: [GRF Cargo Subtype]: Removed unused variable.
01:34:05  <CIA-3> richk * r5234 /branch/MiniIN/ (patches/MiniINpatches.txt patches/ window.c): [MiniIN]: [ToolbarFix]: Added Toolbar fix to adjust position at which Station and Depot windows open to not cover the parent toolbar.
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02:51:52  <skrp> where can i get past-2090 patch w/out just by itself and how do i add it?
02:52:18  <skrp> and working PBS would be nice as well :)
02:53:39  <skrp> anybody alive?
02:57:42  <Vornicus> what?
02:58:35  <skrp> is there a place where i can get all the patches for openttd and install them w/out a compilation?
02:59:02  <skrp> such as past-2090 and more or less working PBS
02:59:24  <Triffid_Hunter> skrp: well since the patches make changes to the source code, you would need to compile after applying them
02:59:29  <Vornicus> Nope.
02:59:47  <Vornicus> ALl patches to OpenTTD must be applied to the source code, and then compiled.
03:00:10  <Vornicus> this is because OpenTTD is extremely cross-platform.
03:01:27  <skrp> so if the compilation i'm using doesnt allow new fehicles or uses old versions of other patches, i'm stuch w/ it
03:01:53  <skrp> then is there an easy way to add .patch .c and other files?
03:02:09  <Vornicus> what do you mean?
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03:02:53  <skrp> as far as i understood patches are in files w/ extensions .patch .c and something else
03:02:55  <skrp> right?
03:03:07  <skrp> .grf files are easy
03:03:45  <skrp> but the rest i can't figure out and there is nothing in the attached threads on forums (searching turns out too many results to go thru them)
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03:06:16  <skrp> huh?
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03:07:31  <Vornicus> okay.
03:07:55  <Vornicus> .c and .h files are source code files.  They are the inputs to the compiler, that create the object files, that get linked together into a full program.
03:08:36  <skrp> ok
03:08:43  <skrp> and what about .patch?
03:09:01  <Vornicus> a .patch file, when applied using patch(1) or similar utilities, modifies the .c and .h files, and various support files - makefiles, for instance, which tell the compiler what things it has to do.
03:10:16  <skrp> so if i get a C compiler and get all those files, i'll be able to create my own openttd.exe w/ the patches i need?
03:10:26  <Triffid_Hunter> yep
03:11:15  <Vornicus> yes.
03:11:57  <skrp> and where can i get all the patches? the sourcecode section on openttd website?
03:12:16  <Vornicus> Patches are generally found as attachments to the forums or bug tracker.
03:12:33  <Vornicus> the source code is available on the sourcecode section.
03:13:35  <skrp> is there just a compiler program? (i dont want to install a whole suite)
03:13:54  <Triffid_Hunter> skrp: what OS?
03:14:20  <skrp> winXP
03:14:38  <Triffid_Hunter> try mingw
03:14:56  <Vornicus> MinGW is the generally accepted compiler to use for openttd.
03:15:10  <Vornicus> on Windows, that is.
03:15:52  <skrp> so i go here:
03:16:07  <skrp> download .c, .h, .m, .hpp files that i need
03:16:11  <skrp> and run MinGW?
03:16:19  <skrp> and .patch from forums
03:16:43  <Vornicus> not quite
03:17:17  <skrp> sorry for too many questions - as you see i'm a newb in programming
03:17:29  <Vornicus> Instead of downloading the source one file at a time, instead go here, and download the gz, bz2, or zip of the source.
03:17:44  <Vornicus> (bz2 is generally the smallest of the three.  Winzip et al can open all three.)
03:17:57  <skrp> will it have ALL the latest patches?
03:17:57  <Vornicus> because you need /the whole thing/
03:18:01  <Vornicus> No.
03:18:13  <Vornicus> it has no patches already applied, it is the base OpenTTD version.
03:18:50  <skrp> oh
03:18:56  <skrp> sorry. got it
03:19:02  <skrp> first i need the original source
03:19:07  <Vornicus> -- granted, it has all the improvements made to trunk since 0.4.6
03:19:09  <Vornicus> 0.4.7 rather
03:19:20  <skrp> and then add the patches
03:19:25  <Vornicus> so it has new bridges and new stations and so forth.
03:19:27  <Vornicus> yeah.
03:19:40  <Vornicus> Though that can be tricky, now that I think about it.
03:19:57  <skrp> what do you mean?
03:20:13  <Vornicus> Well, you'll also need a patch-applying program.  Windows doesn't come with one.
03:21:00  <skrp> duh
03:21:05  <skrp> what is it?
03:21:17  <Vornicus> uh
03:21:19  <Vornicus> not sure.
03:21:39  <skrp> filext doesnt have it listed
03:21:47  <Vornicus> Another option is to use TortoiseSVN to download the absolute most current source, and it has an integrated patch-application item.
03:22:00  <Triffid_Hunter> skrp: you could always install it..
03:23:10  <Vornicus> that will require that you use the command line, but I think mingw would too.
03:23:34  <skrp> all mingw downloads are .gz
03:23:49  <skrp> will totalcommander take them?
03:23:50  <Vornicus> yeah.  winzip should open those.
03:24:07  <Vornicus> I don't know what totalcommander is, but if its name isn't a horrid lie, it should.
03:24:54  <skrp> it used to be windowscommander
03:25:04  <skrp> basically norton commander for windows
03:25:26  <Vornicus> I don't know what either of those are either.
03:25:36  * Vornicus is a Mac user.
03:25:49  <skrp> rich ppl :)
03:25:59  <Vornicus> Not rich.
03:26:03  * Triffid_Hunter is a gentoo linux advocate
03:26:04  <skrp> i'm kidding
03:26:04  <Vornicus> I just know what's important to me.
03:26:09  <skrp> hehe
03:26:17  <skrp> anyway
03:26:21  <skrp> i'm a little confused
03:26:28  <Vornicus> and, since I use a computer 16 hours a day, I'm willing to spend a lot of money on it.
03:26:37  <skrp> do i need both mingw and tortoise or just tortoise
03:26:43  <skrp> ?
03:26:46  <Vornicus> Both.
03:27:00  <Vornicus> Well, you can live with just mingw, but tortoise is pretty important
03:27:04  <Triffid_Hunter> skrp: tortoise just downloads the latest ver from the repository.. mingw lets you make an executable out of it
03:28:26  <skrp> and the w/ever the program from gnu's website is for patching?
03:28:53  <Triffid_Hunter> yep mingw will make a exe of that too
03:29:07  <Vornicus> yeah, but if you're getting Tortoise, you don't need gnu patch.
03:30:00  <skrp> i've downloaded an archive w/ the latest nightly and am currently installing tortoise
03:30:05  <skrp> actually done w/ it
03:30:21  <skrp> so now i gotta get mingw
03:30:23  <Vornicus> and if you're getting Tortoise, you don't need to install the nightly archive.
03:30:38  <skrp> then how do i get the source?
03:30:52  <Vornicus> because in your setup of Tortoise to handle your OpenTTD stuff, it will download the latest latest source, containing fixes even the nightly doesn't have.
03:31:43  <skrp> which mingw should i get?
03:32:09  <skrp> java, objc, g++, core or what?
03:32:25  <Vornicus> g++, I think.
03:33:20  <skrp> and the bin not src
03:34:06  <skrp> any second opinions?
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03:34:11  <Triffid_Hunter> not gcc?
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03:34:26  <Vornicus> and bin, not src.
03:34:38  <Vornicus> not gcc: with YAPF in there, you need a C++ compiler.
03:35:13  <skrp> yay! totalcommander got it
03:35:18  <Vornicus> good.
03:35:19  <Triffid_Hunter> will he need binutils too?
03:35:37  <Vornicus> (src stands for source.  You'd need to compile it.  I'll let you imagine the process of building a compiler without a compiler.)
03:35:42  <Vornicus> I don't know what binutils is.
03:35:52  <Triffid_Hunter> it has make and things like that iirc
03:35:55  <skrp> but i think i got the wrong one
03:36:01  <Vornicus> mh
03:36:01  <skrp> or just the updates
03:36:08  <skrp> there are no executables
03:36:12  <Vornicus> Frankly, though, I don't know anything about Windows compilation.
03:36:14  <skrp> in the archive that is
03:36:36  <Triffid_Hunter> Vornicus: it's an arduous process
03:36:42  <Vornicus> I get that impression.
03:37:23  <Triffid_Hunter> would probably be easier with cygwin
03:37:30  <skrp> oops i've looked in the wrong folder
03:37:34  <skrp> let's see how it works
03:37:58  <skrp> hmmm
03:38:10  <skrp> none of the executables seem to have a GUI
03:38:16  <skrp> and no command line either
03:38:40  <Vornicus> they should all be command line.
03:38:58  <Vornicus> I don't know how to install them though
03:39:15  <skrp> @Triffid_Hunter: do you use it?
03:39:33  <Triffid_Hunter> skrp: usually there are instructions in a file called INSTALL
03:40:03  <Triffid_Hunter> they usually consist of cd /wherever, ./configure <configure options>, make && make install
03:41:06  <skrp> well there is no install file in the archive
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03:41:33  * skrp is reading tons pages of documentations at MinGW website
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03:42:47  <Triffid_Hunter> oh you're still at installing mingw eh.. just stick the bin directory in your path and see if it works
03:43:15  <skrp> i'm an idiot! i'll try MSYS
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03:45:29  <skrp> a'ight
03:45:54  <skrp> got MSYS, which is a win32 window w/ command line and $ sign
03:46:11  <skrp> now moving to step 2: getting the patches into the compilation
03:46:12  <skrp> :)
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03:48:01  <skrp> which file do i enter into compiler so that everything else is added?
03:48:32  <Triffid_Hunter> usually there's a Makefile which does all that for you
03:48:57  <Vornicus> I don't know how makefiles interact with mingw and all that.
03:49:07  <Triffid_Hunter> sometimes they're generated by a script called configure which will be in the base dir of your archive if not the Makefile
03:49:37  <Vornicus> OpenTTD however allows make to run directly and immediately.  I'm not sure how you get that to happen on Windows though.
03:49:41  <skrp> since we all use different compilers, let's discuss the general steps
03:50:24  <Triffid_Hunter> Vornicus: that's what binutils are for.. make processes the makefile, feeds each source to gcc and other stuff, puts all the object files together with ld to make your executable, then moves documentation and support files around, ready for make install
03:50:28  <skrp> what i need: 1)a compiler 2)Tortoise, which will apply all .patch and newer versions 3) source code
03:50:43  <Vornicus> Right.
03:50:50  <Vornicus> But 2 will get 3 for you, if you tell it to.
03:50:53  <Triffid_Hunter> skrp: i'd say you need binutils (from the mingw site) too
03:51:13  <skrp> then step 1) apply all patches thru Tortoise's GUI
03:51:43  <Vornicus> right
03:51:44  <skrp> 2) figure out how the compiler will compile openttd.exe
03:52:33  <Triffid_Hunter> skrp: btw, if you're wondering if this is what linux is like, the answer is "only if you want it to be"
03:53:19  <skrp> i used Knoppix :)
03:53:30  <Triffid_Hunter> on my system, i just type emerge openttd and it compiles and installs a recent version for me :)
03:53:56  <skrp> and i can clean install windows from command line 8-)
03:54:18  <skrp> but nevertheless i'm a fan of GUI
03:54:27  <skrp> and universal standards
03:54:37  <Triffid_Hunter> heh i made a slipstream cd when I was using windows many years ago
03:55:03  <skrp> btw, it's strange that there is no manual on compilation
03:55:12  <skrp> and application of patches
03:55:33  <Triffid_Hunter> asked two questions: partition and computer name, and pre-installed opera, nero, notepad++, firefox, etc
03:55:37  <skrp> gamers get an open-source game and still rely on other ppl to include all the patches for them
03:56:33  <Vornicus> well, yes.  Most folks don't use compilers.
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03:56:44  <skrp> yet at the same time there should be an easy way to add patches into openttd
03:56:48  <Triffid_Hunter> skrp: it's because patching stuff isn't specific to any one package.. afaik, all code development happens through a series of patches
03:56:50  <skrp> and a list of available patches
03:57:03  <Triffid_Hunter> so the help on patching will come with your patch utility
03:57:07  <Vornicus> A list of available patches would be nice.
03:57:11  <skrp> yeah. windows is one big patch to the previous version :)
03:57:53  <skrp> the strangest thing is that 2090 patch has been available for over a year and it's still not in the final version
04:00:49  <Vornicus> no; it changes the map format.
04:02:31  <skrp> what do you mean?
04:03:43  <Vornicus> the 2090 patch works by changing the way savegames are interpreted.
04:04:27  <skrp> btw, can i find out which patch is applied to a savegame?
04:04:41  <skrp> i cant figure out why some of my saves do not open
04:04:46  <Vornicus> Not that I'm aware of.
04:09:13  <skrp> well, once i figure out how to compile my own versions, i'll hopefully be able to open it
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04:09:36  <skrp> i've created a railroad connecting all 15 towns and all industries on the map
04:10:01  <skrp> just for fun (got the money cheat and building while paused for it)
04:10:37  <skrp> right now there are 145 trains and i need to add 90 more (goods to towns)
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04:11:34  <skrp> did you get my latest messages?
04:12:25  <Vornicus> I didn't
04:12:37  <skrp> Triffid_Hunter: you were right about binutils
04:13:02  <skrp> Vornicus: i've built a train network connecting all 15 towns and all industries
04:13:09  <skrp> there are 145 trains so far
04:13:22  <skrp> and i'm planning on adding 90 more (goods to towns)
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07:52:32  <peter1138> DEBASER
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08:23:21  <CIA-3> tron * r5235 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c: Comment formatting
08:34:09  <CIA-3> tron * r5236 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c: Fiddle with whitespace and formatting for better readability
08:35:18  <CIA-3> tron * r5237 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c: Remove dead code
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08:36:50  <CIA-3> tron * r5238 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c: Staticise
08:37:57  <peter1138> heh
08:40:17  <RichK67_> wtf?
08:41:08  <peter1138> morning
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08:42:49  <CIA-3> tron * r5239 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c: Fetching the map dimensions once is enough
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08:44:14  <[Shaman]> RichK67_: Tell me miniIN's tgp is still the 'buggy' one and he'll have to do it again in trunk? :o
08:46:59  <RichK67_> Tron: please undo the change to temp_perlin_value (where you changed it to "temp"). .... it is named that way for clarity.... and other than that, please ask before diving into modifying the whole of TGP
08:47:51  <Tron> if it was a global variable, it would agree, but it's local to a single function and its overly long name makes it very hard to read the code
08:49:12  <RichK67_> also, if you make changes to the TGP patch inside [MiniIN] please follow my commit convention of stating [MiniIN]: [TGP]: Remove dead code ... its so i can identify what relates to what patch
08:49:43  * peter1138 waits for vs2005 to get into gear
08:50:10  <RichK67_> the problem is not *reading* the code, its UNDERSTANDING the code... temp_perlin_value is more helpful to the reader, than temp which could be anything
08:50:28  <Tron> the whole f*ing file is about perlin noise
08:50:46  <Tron> the function is named perlinFOO
08:51:34  <RichK67_> yes, but that routine needs the extra clarity; sometimes cant it be the patch author's discretion rather than your view??  or are you going to recode it all for me
08:51:44  <Tron> the value is returned, so what could this variable be about? radiointerferometry?
08:52:40  <Tron> hell, the value is even initialised from a function named perlinBAR
08:53:01  <RichK67_> well if it is name temp, it could be anything;   temp_perlin_value makes it clear it isnt a temp loop var, or any other thing that "temp" can be elsewhere
08:53:31  <Tron> and if it's still unclear, read the 5 line comment above the function (which btw doesn't make any sense)
08:53:35  <RichK67_> and what does it matter how long it is; its getting compiled, and pretty much nobody will ever read it
08:53:46  <Tron> "This routine is starting to be a real terrain." <--- ?
08:54:11  <Tron> loop variables aren't named temp, they're x, y, i, j, k
08:54:38  <Tron> and don't tell me about good variable names. later there's a variable named "current_tile"
08:54:46  <Tron> it holds a height, not a TileIndex
08:54:55  <RichK67_> if it doesnt make sense, you havent understood about perlin noise
08:55:03  <Tron> if the variable was named "h" it would be way more clear, despite being a single char
08:55:32  <RichK67_> This routine is starting to be a real terrain; ie. it can be described in terrain terms rather than perlin random noise terms
08:57:43  <Tron> the routine is a terrain?
08:58:04  <Tron> a function cannot be a landscape
08:59:28  <Tron> i just want a decent landscape generator in trunk
08:59:33  <RichK67_> fine, I (note I ) will modify the comments for additional clarity when the patch is ready for dev review... until then, please leave alone (the TGP isnt the master copy anyway)
08:59:53  <RichK67_> sorry - the TGP in MiniIN isnt the master
09:00:27  <RichK67_> i totally agree, but i cant get a simple patch like NewAirports past the devs, so TGP will take 6 months
09:01:01  <Tron> airports isn't "simple"
09:01:08  <RichK67_> (Darkvater is happy with NewAirports, btw; he has reviewed with fine toothcomb)
09:01:09  <Tron> whereas a landscape generator is "simple"
09:01:14  <Tron> for certain definitions of simple
09:01:45  <Tron> airports need a change in the savegame -> not simple and practically irreversible
09:01:59  <Tron> landscape generator -> no problem
09:02:14  <RichK67_> lol - funny; from my perspective, I find writing state machines nice and simple; whereas TGP is trying some complex maths and trying to bias a random routine to give a pleasant result is a pain
09:02:37  <Tron> it's all about savegames
09:03:11  <RichK67_> tron: the only savegame change is that the station ID for airports has 4 more values; otherwise, no changes
09:03:22  <Tron> if there's a bug in the perlin implementation: well, fix it, no problem
09:03:23  <RichK67_> no structures are changed
09:03:36  <Tron> dozens of savegames with deadlocking planes: yuck
09:04:07  <Tron> otherwise no changes? no true
09:04:09  <RichK67_> tron: wont happen; i dont touch the existing airports at all
09:04:28  <Tron> if a landscape generator gets removed, there's no problem with existing savegames
09:04:46  <Tron> if airports get removed, all savegames using them are broken
09:06:01  <RichK67_> true; but that is true of any feature using a new feature; but new airports works; and has been stable in the MiniIN and IN for over 2 months; no complaints about locked planes
09:06:20  <Tron> guess why i wasn't pleased as somebody threw the bridges stuff into trunk. because it totally fucks with the savegames
09:06:42  <peter1138> hmm
09:08:21  <RichK67_> but that is like saying "we arent going to add any extra functionality that changes savegames (to the development trunk)... in case people cant continue games with the nightly" ... last i checked the nightly was at players risk, with no guarantee a save in one will load in the next
09:08:52  <RichK67_> so if a patch goes in to nightly, fails, gets pulled; no release games are affected
09:09:08  <Tron> RichK67_: svn merge -r 5239:5234 . <--- go ahead, but i was just doing necessary work for you to get it into trunk
09:10:18  <RichK67_> but i totally agree on the bridges branch - if its your dev area, people should give you right to veto inclusion; like I would say TGP is currently *not* ready for trunk; there are quirks i want to clear up first
09:10:23  <Tron> i don't want it to fail. yes, it's still the users risk, but there's no reason to jump back and forth if it's done right
09:11:12  <RichK67_> tron: i like some of your cleanups... comment areas look cleaner :)
09:11:19  <RichK67_> hang on ... work... brb
09:11:29  <Tron> i haven't looked at the airports stuff, tbh i regard it rather unimportant compared to a new landscape generator
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09:12:32  <peter1138> *sigh*
09:12:35  <peter1138> so slow :(
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09:17:27  <RichK67_> back...
09:18:12  <RichK67_> Tron: its fortunate you're doing the changes to this version of TGP, cos until last night, the MiniIN version had the VOID bug
09:19:14  <RichK67_> unfortunately it really needs a heavy multiplayer soak-test to check that there isnt another error in the generator causing the desyncs, but Shaman ran a game for the full 100 years with it recently
09:19:45  <peter1138> it shouldn't ... it's only run on the server, after all...
09:21:00  <RichK67_> yeah, i know, thats what i said initially .. but i hadnt got the VOID setting correct; it worked ok on single player, but multi was desyncing every 2-3mins
09:21:15  <RichK67_> sometimes its the map :)
09:21:52  <peter1138> hmm
09:22:20  <RichK67_> Tron: the airports are ready and complete, which is why i want them in; yes, TGP is more important, but isnt ready
09:24:05  <RichK67_> peter - we tested it; clean trunk build. with TGP map (supplied by me, as a .scn) , desyncing; without, no desyncs;   had to be something with the map; and the VOID setting wasnt right
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09:34:51  <Tron> there are certain invariants for the map that must hold
09:35:07  <Tron> - VOID tiles at exactly the lower borders
09:35:32  <Tron> - WATER tiles around the whole map
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09:35:54  <Tron> - tile height max +-1 of it's 4 neigbours
09:36:15  <RichK67_> yeah, i just want sure whether i was setting the right VOID tiles... i am now :)
09:36:19  <Tron> - tile height < max(0, distatance_to_edge_of_map - 1)
09:36:52  <Tron> otherwise many things will go bonkers
09:37:09  <RichK67_> latter tests sorted by the "SmoothTiles" routine ... yeah, ive seen it go bonkers :)
09:37:12  <Tron> most probably out-of-bounds accesses
09:37:49  <RichK67_> yup .. as i say, it needs some good soak testing now...
09:38:24  <Tron> and i knew about the wrong void tiles, i told you were to find a correct version
09:38:44  <RichK67_> yup, thats where the code came from ... ty
09:39:19  <RichK67_> i had taken the lead from the PNGload patch; but i now think its VOID setting is incorrect
09:39:40  <RichK67_> since my Africa map had the same problems
09:39:56  <Tron> the void tiles are there to make the slope calculation happy
09:40:24  <Tron> nothing else
09:40:34  <Tron> therefore they are exactly needed at the lower edges
09:40:48  <Tron> because every tile just stores the height of its north corner
09:41:58  <RichK67_> any idea on how to prevent small maps becoming nothing but water?? should i have an explicit rule of "must be at least 25% land" or something??
09:42:48  <Tron> calculate the histogram of your noise field
09:43:25  <Tron> from there it's simple to guarantee a minimum amount of land (plus minus the necessary terrain smoothing for the +-1 to neighbours invariant)
09:44:23  <RichK67_> you agree it should be a set minimum tho?
09:44:46  *** RichK67_ is now known as RichK67__
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09:45:53  <Tron> well
09:45:55  *** RichK67__ is now known as RichK67_wrk
09:46:03  <Tron> how does the water quantity work right now?
09:46:13  <Tron> a threshold value? everything below is water?
09:46:21  <RichK67_wrk> effectively yes
09:46:50  <Tron> so there's no guarantee
09:46:50  <RichK67_wrk> but it is unpredictable whether a given seed will *start off* underwater
09:47:00  <RichK67_wrk> yes
09:47:24  <Tron> even if you say 90% water you could end up with no water at all
09:47:27  <Tron> and vice versa
09:47:51  <Tron> always use the histogram method
09:48:28  <Tron> you won't get perfect percentages values, because of finite resolution, but you get pretty close
09:48:32  <RichK67_wrk> however, the TGP routine is extremely fast - my machine will do 1024x1024 in ~5 secs (placing towns & inds takes longer) ... so for small maps, we could do a pre-flight check that the seed is a good one
09:48:56  <Tron> calculate a noise field
09:49:04  <Tron> calculate the histogram
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09:49:20  <Tron> calculate the threshold for water
09:49:31  <Tron> and the scale for maximum height conversion
09:49:36  <RichK67_wrk> yeah, i can see a histogram could work; but in effect all i want fromi it is average height & max height; and then bias the water threshold from that
09:49:55  <Tron> this way you can also add a "yes, i want plateaus (sp?)" switch
09:50:50  <Tron> by altering the scale factor a bit, the higher the scale (of course you have to do max(h * scale, 15)) the more plateaus you get
09:52:26  <Tron> or even better h = (clamp(x, water_threshold, plateau_threshold) - w_thresh) * 15 / (p_thresh - w_thresh)
09:52:33  <RichK67_wrk> i think its a little less controllable than that; the variations in the perlin noise is more driven by the persistence values, and that is very much harder to bias
09:53:24  <RichK67_wrk> ah i see.. you are suggesting clipping the map above a certain height to create plateaus...
09:53:25  <Tron> and choose the two thresholds so you get close to the desired amount of water/plateaus
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09:54:00  <Tron> yes, and if the plateau threshold is == max_perlin_value you get no plateaus, just mountain spikes
09:54:55  <Tron> you could play even more fancy games by introducing a third "threshhold" to get plateaus at a certain level and then some mountain spikes ontop
09:55:13  <Tron> if below w -> water
09:55:27  <Tron> if above p -> plateau at certain height
09:55:29  <RichK67_wrk> i would probably want to limit plateau heights to 85%, 90% and 95% of height
09:55:44  <Tron> if even above s -> value - s for spikes
09:56:44  <Tron> so the values between p and s form plateaus
09:58:31  <RichK67_wrk> what i would probably do is clip at the plateau height, and then add a further noise field on top (scaled to max 2 height) to give a little vertical variation above
09:59:27  <Tron> maybe, low frequency, low amplitude
09:59:43  <RichK67_wrk> the desert terrain does something similar; flattens the middle to height 1, then adds an extra flat map on top
10:00:02  <RichK67_wrk> yeah, definitely smooth
10:00:38  <peter1138> what interpolation method does tgp use?
10:01:03  <Tron> linear iirc
10:01:35  <RichK67_wrk> simple linear... nothing fancy
10:01:58  <RichK67_wrk> the OTTD doesnt have enough resolution to warrant anything finer
10:02:03  <RichK67_wrk> OTTD map
10:04:24  <Tron> hmhm
10:04:37  <Tron> max_perlin_height is used while it still can change
10:05:51  <RichK67_wrk> damn yes!!
10:06:24  <Tron> ?
10:07:11  <RichK67_wrk> hmm - what i need is to be able to assign > Tileheight during initial creation, and then do the scaling down;
10:07:23  <Tron> ?
10:07:48  <RichK67_wrk> i have to store the generated height somewhere, and the map is the only place really
10:08:53  <RichK67_wrk> unless i run the whole routine twice :( :(   to get the max value on first pass, and the scaled value on second
10:08:59  <Tron> malloc?
10:09:49  <RichK67_wrk> (at this point, my C skills disappear in a puff of smoke!! ;)    im not really very familiar with things like malloc)
10:10:33  <Tron> foo* bar = malloc(number_of_elements * sizeof(*bar));
10:10:38  <Tron> memory allocation
10:10:46  <Triffid_Hunter> RichK67_wrk: pointer_to_memory_chunk = malloc( i_want_this_much_memory );
10:10:57  <RichK67_wrk> it would be very useful to do the initial generation into its own var array, and then read & interpret that into the final map
10:11:14  <Tron> or foo* bar = calloc(number_of_elements, sizeof(*bar)); if you want it initialised with 0
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10:11:55  <RichK67_wrk> so if i want a MapSize() of int it is    temp_map = malloc(MapSize() * sizeof(int));   ?????
10:12:11  <Tron> yes (and no)
10:12:22  <Tron> the "no" part: never use sizeof(type)
10:12:25  <RichK67_wrk> im all ears... (i look weird ;) )
10:12:32  <Tron> always use sizeof(*variable)
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10:12:59  <Tron> then it just does The Right Thing(tm)
10:13:00  <Tron> always
10:13:08  <Tron> even if you change the type of the variable
10:13:30  <RichK67_wrk> ok so;           int Height;          temp_map = malloc(MapSize() * sizeof(Height));   ??
10:13:41  <RichK67_wrk> *Height
10:13:43  <Tron> no
10:13:54  <Tron> sizeof(*temp_map)
10:13:59  <Tron> always the variable you assign to
10:14:09  <peter1138> i'd do: int *temp_map = calloc(MapSize(), sizeof(*temp_map));
10:14:41  <Tron> if you want zeros, that's the Good Thing(tm)
10:14:57  <RichK67_wrk> whoa!!! thats different to mine... i will have to have a read about these! ... but i can use peter's
10:15:15  <peter1138> if you don't need it zeroed, then use malloc
10:15:16  <Tron> different to your what?
10:15:30  <peter1138> int *temp_map = malloc(MapSize() * sizeof(*temp_map));
10:15:38  <RichK67_wrk> my understanding.. im stoopid ;)
10:15:55  <Tron> calloc just multiplies its two parameters, btw
10:16:33  <peter1138> is there any particular reason they take parameters differently like that? heh
10:16:44  <Tron> hysterical raisins
10:16:48  <peter1138> :)
10:16:55  <RichK67_wrk> ok - ill modify TGP to store the map temporarily first, and do all scaling on that
10:17:33  <Tron> is'n calculating all N octaves again _per value_ a bit inefficient?
10:18:38  <Tron> i think you can cut the number of calculations in half
10:19:12  <Tron> (frequency changes exponential, therefore just half)
10:19:12  <RichK67_wrk> the octave only looks like one in the documentation, because they have varied x... if you want a point value for a specific x, it calculates each individually
10:19:26  <Tron> yes, that's what i mean
10:19:31  <RichK67_wrk> (my code for this bit, is pretty much verbatim the original source)
10:19:41  <Tron> just calculate octave 0 once and apply it to the whole field
10:19:49  <Tron> then octave 1 and add it to the field
10:19:55  <Tron> octave 2 ...
10:20:00  <Tron> ocatave N
10:20:20  <Tron> this way you calculate each octave once instead of (N - octave_number) times
10:21:24  <Tron> 2 ** (N - octave_number) of course
10:21:34  <RichK67_wrk> its the same; i only pull one value from each octave and apply per X&Y; your suggestion just does for each octave (do all X&Y), rather than currently for each X&Y ( do all octaves)
10:22:42  <RichK67_wrk> the "octave" is a single value, not a range of values ... for each X&Y, each octave value is a single pseudo-random number
10:22:54  <Tron> well
10:23:00  <Tron> for the lowest frequency
10:23:05  <Tron> you calculate 2 points
10:23:14  <Tron> and interpolate linear between them
10:23:16  <Tron> right?
10:23:36  <Tron>   size *= num;
10:23:36  <Tron>   if ( (p = malloc(size)) )
10:23:36  <Tron>     bzero(p, size);
10:23:36  <Tron>   return(p);
10:23:42  <Tron> somebody should get shot for this code
10:23:55  <Tron> (part of the calloc() implementation of the libc of FreeBSD)
10:25:56  <RichK67_wrk> Tron: i think you may be right, but it would be moving away from where i currently understand it working; i would prefer that an optimisation like this is done later (and probably by you, or another more experienced C code)
10:26:23  <RichK67_wrk> more experienced (than me)
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10:27:22  <Tron> pow(_opt.diff.terrain_type, 1) ?!
10:29:27  <RichK67_wrk> yup... TGP is still in development; that was a hangover from a previous variant, where i varied the max amplitude based on a power of the terrain type;  i may still use it;
10:29:45  <RichK67_wrk> when i offer TGP for final review, such things will have been removed
10:30:56  <Tron> max_perlin_height shouldn't be a global
10:32:52  <peter1138> Tron: enough braces there?
10:33:00  <peter1138> that looks almost like bjarni code
10:33:10  <Tron> way too many braces for my taste
10:33:18  <Tron> esp stuff like (foo(x, y, z))
10:34:28  <Tron> wow, the implementation of pow() is about 240 lines long
10:35:19  <Tron> and has a 50 lines comment at the start
10:35:36  <Tron> yay, 19 special cases
10:37:12  <Tron> let me summaraise the implementation
10:37:13  <Tron> {
10:37:26  <Tron>   /* magic, LOT'S of it */
10:37:28  <Tron> }
10:38:39  <peter1138> complete with misplaced apostrophe? :)
10:39:02  <Tron> hm, yes, bad habit, bad Tron *SMACK* no cookie
10:39:14  <Tron> *whince*
10:39:29  <Tron> *wince*
10:39:30  <Tron> *sigh*
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10:40:18  <Tron>   /* compute log(ax) */
10:40:18  <Tron>       s2 = ss*ss;
10:40:18  <Tron>       r = s2*s2*(L1+s2*(L2+s2*(L3+s2*(L4+s2*(L5+s2*L6)))));
10:40:18  <Tron>       r += s_l*(s_h+ss);
10:40:18  <Tron>       s2  = s_h*s_h;
10:40:34  <Tron> nobody ever tell me again ottd code is hard to understand
10:41:14  <Noldo> is it based on a series representation?
10:41:37  <Tron> that's just 5 lines of the 240
10:41:44  <Noldo> oh
10:41:46  <Tron> there's way more and diffrent kinds of magic
10:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks like Horner Scheme
10:42:26  <Tron> yes, looks like a poly evaluation
10:43:51  <RichK67_wrk> Tron: once i am storing the map in a temp_map, max_perlin_height will become local to wherever is doing the scaling
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10:46:39  <Tron> RichK67_wrk: what's the resoultion of your perlin noise implementation?
10:48:40  <RichK67_wrk> not sure if it can do non-int values of X&Y... not checked.  the max height range is about -250 to +580 i think, but that is just from watching values pass by
10:49:08  <RichK67_wrk> and of course, can be scaled anyway
10:49:11  <Tron> oh, yeah, right, it's floating point
10:49:29  <Tron> so 53 bit mantissa
10:49:34  <Tron> and exponent...
10:49:49  <RichK67_wrk> double perlin_coast_noise_2D
10:49:56  <Tron> 830 is about 10 orders of magnitude
10:50:07  <RichK67_wrk> and double perlin_noise_2D
10:50:35  <Tron> so about 4 bit
10:50:42  <Tron> 57 resolution is _much_
10:50:49  <Tron> you don't want a histogram of _that_
10:50:58  <Tron> s/57/57 bits/
10:51:45  <Tron> maybe 16 bits, more is excessive
10:52:22  <RichK67_wrk> sorry - ive missed what this is for...
10:53:12  <Tron> double numbers have 53 bits mantissa
10:53:30  <Tron> and -250 till +580 is 830
10:53:40  <Tron> that's about 10 orders of magnitude
10:54:04  <Tron> to cover this you need about 4 bits
10:54:23  <RichK67_wrk> it is perlin_noise_2D * amplitude that is range of 830
10:54:36  <Tron> so a histogram would have about 2**57 different values
10:54:57  <RichK67_wrk> hmm... a bit more than needed ;)
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10:55:38  <Tron> yeah, 144 trillion (british trillions, not american!) different values is a bit over the top
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10:57:13  <RichK67_wrk> ill keep the temp_map as an int then ;)
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10:57:55  <Tron> i don't recommend more than 16bit resolution
10:58:50  <RichK67_wrk> or are you thinking of truncating the accuracy of the perlin noise, so that it is only calculated to 16 bits, saving processor time on not calculating the other 41....
10:59:54  <Tron> tell your FPU to not calculate 41 bits (;
11:00:13  <RichK67_wrk> ok.. how?
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11:00:28  <Tron> you don't *g*
11:00:55  <RichK67_wrk> ok... then i wont! ;)
11:01:22  <Tron> scale the stuff (value - min) * 65535 / (max - min)
11:02:00  <RichK67_wrk> it wont save anything; its already calculated the full 57, may as well pass them
11:02:20  <Tron> but you don't want to calculate a histogram with 144 trillion entries
11:02:39  <Tron> except if you want to /slightly/ increase the memory requirements of ottd
11:03:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that would not be a wise thing to do anyway... since it holds not more information...
11:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> just a characteristic function of the output ;)
11:03:41  <RichK67_wrk> ah... you have a different idea of what to do with the temp_map; all i need to know from the "histogram" is average height above sea-level, and max-height... a simple traverse of the map with a tally for each will work
11:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (values 0 or 1=
11:04:07  <peter1138> is 8 bit resolution not plenty, considering we only have 16 height s...
11:05:19  <RichK67_wrk> given average height, i can decide if lowering the sea-level will reveal enough land
11:05:20  <Tron> RichK67_wrk: you want to add up the values from you histogram from the bottom up till you have enough "area" for your water
11:05:31  <Tron> the average says _nothing_
11:05:45  <RichK67_wrk> ok, i see where you are getting at
11:05:51  <RichK67_wrk> where/what
11:06:06  <Tron> water coverage is more like median (except not for 50/50, but water/(100-water))
11:08:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but i think 16 bit resolution is a bit much...
11:09:05  <RichK67_wrk> so;    pass1: put all heights into tally bins (eg. 221 height 1, 166 height 2, etc...) .. pass2: if i want 25% water, find the bin in the histogram for the 1/4 * MapSize() entry
11:09:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you might as well do a bucket sort on the map
11:09:13  <Eddi|zuHause> which is max 22 bit
11:09:39  <Tron> a histogram _is_ a bucket sort
11:09:58  <RichK67_wrk> just checking we mean the same things
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11:10:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes...
11:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but with larger buckets
11:10:50  <Tron> ?
11:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> nvm
11:11:18  <Tron> a bucket is whatever you define it to be
11:11:56  <RichK67_wrk> its less than that; we only need consider the 16 heights... since when we scale the temp_map down, all values will reduce to one of the 16 values
11:12:17  <Tron> you want to calculate with more precision beforehand
11:12:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and i think 16 bit buckets are too many/too small
11:12:22  <Tron> otherweise you get artifacts
11:12:32  <RichK67_wrk> artifacts are smoothed later
11:12:35  <Trenskow> my filter patch is done
11:12:35  <Tron> well, use 8 bits
11:12:38  <Trenskow> here it is:
11:12:47  <Tron> should just be one typedef and a few constants to change
11:13:07  <Trenskow> is able to filter servers in the server list
11:13:10  <Trenskow> from these conditions:
11:13:16  <Tron> RichK67_wrk: no, other kinds of artifacts
11:13:17  <Trenskow> password protected
11:13:19  <Trenskow> not full
11:13:26  <Trenskow> (sorry for spamming)
11:13:41  <Trenskow> people playing, game age and server version
11:13:48  <Tron> for 16 height levels you just need 4 octaves,
11:13:59  <Tron> but won't give good results
11:14:26  <Tron> render the noise field at higher resolution and scale it down to 4 bits
11:14:28  <Tron> that looks way better
11:15:58  <Tron> you can't get that information back
11:16:11  <Tron> especially not by smoothing, because that throws away even more information
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11:26:18  <RichK67_wrk> sorry, i mean that if we choose a position N for the 25% bucket in the histogram, then if that is not precisely on the boundary between the scaled 16 levels, then more than that level may get included in the height band
11:27:24  <Tron> and the higher the resolution the smaller the error will be
11:27:57  <RichK67_wrk> so if bucket 55 is our sea level, but when scaled the nearest height levels run from 48 to 68, then instead of bucket 55 being the cut-off, it will go up to bucket 67
11:28:07  <Tron> buckets 0 till 55
11:28:18  <RichK67_wrk> o till 67
11:28:47  <Tron> apply the threshold first, then scale
11:28:53  <RichK67_wrk> unless we start the terrain height 1 at 56, and the scale above that
11:29:03  <Tron> of course you do that
11:29:12  <RichK67_wrk> sorry, im thick
11:29:21  <Tron> thick?
11:29:38  <Tron> ah, this word has more than one translation *g*
11:29:39  <RichK67_wrk> stoopid, slow, dunce... take your pick
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11:31:05  <RichK67_wrk> i like the way that this will give a known %age of water tho... solves the small map problem nicely, and i can get rid of the current butt-ugly water level control i use (which is rather hit & miss)
11:32:10  <Trenskow> it there gonna be water at different levels in the new map array ?
11:32:14  <peter1138> so hurry up and finish it. i want decent maps :)
11:32:20  <Trenskow> like legs could be above sea level
11:32:21  <RichK67_wrk> given i only need a height range of about 1024, is there any var that has that short a range, or should i just use an int?
11:32:26  <peter1138> Trenskow: there is. they're called canals
11:32:47  <peter1138> uint16 is the smallest
11:32:50  <Trenskow> peter1138, yea but i was thinking more about in land water
11:33:15  <Trenskow> but that could cause problems when connecting legs with ocean
11:33:15  <Tron> peter1138: and they're and ugly hack implementation-wise
11:33:36  <RichK67_wrk> you could just have it that water at height > 0 doesnt flow
11:33:57  <Trenskow> unless oc, the water levels then fell or raised so they were equal
11:34:32  <Trenskow> but then again you could be flooding industries and towns
11:34:32  <Trenskow> :)
11:34:35  <peter1138> Tron: well yes
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11:38:11  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5240 /trunk/train_cmd.c: - NewGRF: when there is more than one engine in a consist, base livery overrides and powered wagon weight/power on the last engine before the wagon.
11:38:29  <RichK67_wrk> bbl - got to go out for lunch
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11:40:31  * peter1138 remembers he's working
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11:50:09  <Bjarni> peter1138: your last commit, I had something like that in one of my patches once. I can't remember why it didn't get committed though
11:50:24  <Bjarni> something about somebody being against it or something
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11:51:22  <Bjarni> not surprisingly, I'm not against it ;)
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12:02:05  <Trenskow> Bjarni, my network filtering patch is done
12:02:05  <peter1138> yeah
12:02:08  <peter1138> i wrote it a while ago
12:02:12  <peter1138> but ttdpatch didn't do it then
12:02:14  <peter1138> it does now o_O
12:02:19  <Trenskow> can't remember if it was you i was discussing it with
12:02:20  <Trenskow> :D
12:02:54  * Trenskow is quite proud :D
12:02:57  <Trenskow> my first openttd patch :D
12:03:17  <Trenskow> actually my second, but the first is included in the second :)
12:06:35  <Trenskow> i would like to implement ping time
12:06:42  <Trenskow> so you could filter from that
12:07:00  <Trenskow> shouldn't be that hard
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12:19:01  <Bjarni> <Trenskow>	can't remember if it was you i was discussing it with <-- well, I said something to you about pulldown menus, but actually I had no idea what you were coding
12:19:23  <Trenskow> Bjarni, hehe ok... that was it :D
12:20:00  <Bjarni> 	<peter1138>	but ttdpatch didn't do it then <-- actually I think that is the reason I didn't commit my patch. Somebody started talking about it and asked why we should do it when the grf sets for the patch didn't do it
12:20:01  <Bjarni> or something like that
12:20:29  <Bjarni> Trenskow: well, what is that filter anyway?
12:20:38  <Bjarni> filtering bad guys away from your server?
12:20:49  <Trenskow> it filters the server list
12:20:58  <Bjarni> like?
12:20:59  <Trenskow>
12:21:14  <Trenskow> password protected, not full, people plauing, age and version
12:21:24  <Trenskow> playing even
12:21:36  <Bjarni> nice
12:21:38  <Bjarni> Running same version as yourself
12:21:43  <Bjarni> now that's a really useful feature
12:21:43  <Trenskow> yes
12:21:52  <Bjarni> maybe it should be on by default
12:22:07  <Trenskow> yes. that's a good idea
12:22:08  <Bjarni> usually people don't care for games that they can't join anyway
12:22:47  <Trenskow> i'll be uploading a screenshot and a patch for 0.4.7 to the ottd forum in two secs
12:22:54  <Bjarni> and still if they think they lack games to join, they can switch on all servers to see what versions are being played (last release vs nightly)
12:22:55  <Trenskow> is just creating the patch
12:23:10  <Trenskow> yea
12:23:49  <Trenskow> i'll do that... make a new patch with version on by default
12:23:56  <Trenskow> the old patch is also kind of messy
12:24:06  <peter1138> hee
12:24:12  <Trenskow> updates lines in files with nothing, that I haven't edited
12:24:13  <peter1138> messy == old newstations patch
12:27:21  <Trenskow> later on i think i will be adding a timeout filter
12:27:41  <Trenskow> so servers that hasn't replied within a user defined time, is removed from the list
12:28:19  <Trenskow> then i just gonna locate the code where the server list is updated, when it receives the info
12:28:39  <Trenskow> else it will probably crash if the server responds after it is erased from the list
12:29:25  <Trenskow> is it alright to use the time_t struct, or is there somekind of OS independend problem with it?
12:29:30  <Trenskow> dunno if every OS has it
12:29:43  <Trenskow> (only do unix)
12:30:19  <Trenskow> well... sorry i ment just <time.h>
12:31:15  <peter1138> what do you need that for?
12:31:44  <Trenskow> so i can see the timespan between the server is asked for info, to it replies
12:32:13  <Trenskow> then i can make a filter that filters out the ones with timespan larger that x
12:32:44  <Bjarni> how about making it possible to sort the list by name, ping, map size and so on?
12:33:41  <Trenskow> and do filtering on it to
12:33:57  <Trenskow> could make filters for map size, terrain and language too
12:34:13  <Bjarni> a tip on doing that could be to look at the vehicle window where you can already sort it for number, engine type and so on
12:34:25  <Bjarni> yeah, language would be nice
12:34:57  <Bjarni> actually make it a bitmask for the language, so you can see say all English, American and German servers
12:35:08  <Trenskow> Bjarni, I think i would have to expand the network server window width, to make it have those values too
12:35:23  <Bjarni> and save those settings in openttd.cfg, so you always see all the servers where you understand the language
12:35:33  <Bjarni> hmm
12:35:45  <Trenskow> or just save the filter settings
12:35:46  <Bjarni> that could be a problem
12:35:55  <Bjarni> it should still be useable on 640x480
12:36:28  <Trenskow> the size is currently 550x250
12:36:35  <Bjarni> maybe you can make a tab with filter settings just like there are tabs in the patch settings
12:36:52  <Trenskow> instead of a window?
12:37:00  <Bjarni> no, in the window
12:37:20  <Bjarni> I mean for more advanced stuff you usually don't change, like show/hide for each language and so on
12:37:21  <Trenskow> 2 sec... i'll just give you a screenshot of how it works right now
12:37:33  <Trenskow> ahhh yes ok
12:37:33  <Trenskow> i see
12:39:04  <Trenskow>
12:39:07  <Trenskow> a screenshot
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12:39:33  <Bjarni> such a list of languages should be a real list, possibly with a scrollbar since we don't have a fixed number of languages
12:39:53  <Bjarni> nice screenshot
12:39:53  <Trenskow> and checkboxes
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12:41:03  <Bjarni> yeah, but we might have a problem in using dynamically allocated checkboxes, so it should be a list with an on and an off button next to it and a marker next to each language, that's on
12:41:05  <Bjarni> or something like that
12:41:21  <Trenskow> so you mean creating a tab view in the filters window, so more advanced settings are hiddin by default
12:41:23  <Bjarni> and "show all" and "show none" for quicker setup
12:41:25  <Trenskow> Bjarni, yes i see
12:41:54  <Trenskow> could create three tabs: common/languages/advanced
12:42:06  <Bjarni> I don't know how we should manage to make a piece of code, that would not need updating when we add new languages, if they got a checkbox each
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12:42:17  <Bjarni> at least not with the current window drawing engine
12:42:29  <Trenskow> Bjarni, i see your point
12:42:30  <Bjarni> it would be a bit much to rewrite it just for this ;)
12:42:53  <Trenskow> in the code, is there an array that holds the languages installed ?
12:43:01  <Bjarni> hmm
12:43:02  <Trenskow> or do i have to look in the directory
12:43:09  <Bjarni> I don't know
12:43:21  <Bjarni> check how the settings figure out what to write in the pulldown menu
12:43:32  <Trenskow> just thought of it too
12:43:53  <peter1138> game is no more than five years ... five years what?
12:43:55  <peter1138> five years left?
12:44:06  <Trenskow> sorry five years old
12:44:13  <Trenskow> that what it should say
12:44:15  <Trenskow> ill fix that
12:44:16  *** RichK67_away is now known as RichK67_wrk
12:44:51  <Trenskow> i often look for games that have just started when i want to play
12:45:09  <Trenskow> the "less" drop down has less/more
12:45:18  <Trenskow> so you can also filter by games older than x years
12:45:35  <Trenskow> and the years drop down has goes from 5-50 with 5 intervals
12:47:14  <Trenskow> peter1138, the server dont give away it's enddate value, so i can't create filters based on time left
12:49:10  <guru3> what country is .ie?
12:49:32  <RichK67_wrk> ireland (eire)
12:49:52  <guru3> thanks
12:50:09  <Bjarni> try the command /country ie
12:50:13  <Bjarni> it replies
12:50:13  <Bjarni> ie = Ireland
12:50:20  <guru3> i don't believe i've got that one
12:50:31  <Bjarni> Xchat already thought of tracking down unknown domain names
12:51:11  <guru3> i'm @ work and i've got essentially nothing todo but watch my torrents at home download :(
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12:51:36  <Noldo> guru3: what's so sad about that?
12:51:44  <guru3> it's boring as hell
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12:52:01  <Bjarni> Trenskow: I just realised a problem in your GUI
12:52:09  <Trenskow> yea?
12:52:10  <Bjarni> Game is no more than 5 years
12:52:13  <guru3> especially when the torrent is like 12GB
12:52:16  <guru3> and the speekd is 4KB/s
12:52:18  <Bjarni> what if it gets translated
12:52:26  <Bjarni> then the strings will get different lengths
12:52:27  <Trenskow> Bjarni, yea your right
12:52:39  <Trenskow> and the word arrangement could be different
12:52:47  <guru3> change it to
12:52:59  <guru3> Max Game Age: X Years
12:53:13  <Bjarni> yeah
12:53:14  <Noldo> Age?
12:53:34  <Bjarni> then it starts with one pulldown menu and ends with one
12:53:47  <Trenskow> so...
12:53:54  <Bjarni> hmm
12:53:58  <Bjarni> maybe not ideal
12:54:01  <Trenskow> no
12:54:05  <Trenskow> just one pulldown
12:54:12  <Trenskow> years
12:54:14  <Trenskow> no less/more
12:54:28  <Trenskow> 5 years old
12:54:28  <Bjarni> yeah, why would anybody even search for old games?
12:54:38  <Trenskow> Bjarni, yes you're right
12:54:42  <guru3> yeah
12:55:05  <guru3> old games tend to be boring in my experience
12:55:15  <Trenskow> right now you need to click the "find servers" button after applying the filters
12:55:18  <Bjarni> "is not full" should also be on by default
12:55:19  <Trenskow> does that make sense?
12:55:27  <Bjarni> no
12:55:43  <guru3> filters should have an enabled checkbox
12:55:44  <Trenskow> that's because the filtering is done as the servers reply
12:55:46  <Bjarni> it should run the drawing thing even without contacting the central server
12:55:47  <guru3> and so should like be saved
12:56:01  <Bjarni> you just filter the local cache, not the incoming stuff
12:56:06  <Bjarni> at least if you made it in a good way
12:56:09  <Trenskow> guru3, you mean like an overall enabled button?
12:56:16  <guru3> no for each one
12:56:23  <guru3> and then it remembers which ones were active
12:56:29  <Bjarni> a bad way is to not cache anything, and kick out the stuff you don't display, so you don't even have it locally anymore
12:56:38  <RichK67_wrk> Tron ping
12:56:41  <Trenskow> guru3, yea we discussed it... having it saving it to openttd.cfg
12:56:52  <Trenskow> Bjarni, your right
12:56:58  <guru3> the stuff for openttd.cfg is annoying as hell tho eh?
12:57:04  <Bjarni> a "global" on/off button would be nice
12:57:26  <Tron> hm?
12:57:27  <guru3> in the main window then
12:57:35  <Bjarni> so you can quickly see all servers while the game still remembers your settings if you enable the filter again
12:57:36  <guru3> so you don't have to toggle everything yeah
12:57:43  <Trenskow> just create a function called IsFiltered or something, that the drawing code uses to see if it should skip it
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12:58:30  <RichK67_wrk> Tron: do you think I should go all-out and totally replace old map gen, or should i keep it for those (weirdos) nice people who want to play old-style maps
12:58:36  <Trenskow> that ill do instead
12:59:13  <Tron> i think there should be multiple map generators, so why not keep the old one?
12:59:36  <Tron> there are other nice methods to generate terrain, maybe somebody wants to implement one
12:59:50  <guru3> there's the one in the xscreensaver package :D
13:00:46  <RichK67_wrk> ok - there was a suggestion to have the generator choice as a button on the new game dialog; i would prefer not
13:00:46  <Bjarni> 	<RichK67_wrk>	Tron: do you think I should go all-out and totally replace old map gen, or should i keep it for those (weirdos) nice people who want to play old-style maps <-- something as complex as a map generator should not be replaced as two different ones never makes the same result. If possible, people should be given the option when making maps
13:01:06  <Bjarni> and maybe we will some day have 4-5 different generators
13:01:13  <guru3> i think it should be a patch option
13:01:38  * ledow votes for a patch option too
13:02:02  <RichK67_wrk> well, chosen in the Advanced Options/Terrain panel   (I *hate* it being called Configure Patches!!)
13:02:30  <guru3> doesn't it say 'patches' there?
13:02:50  <RichK67_wrk> TGP already has a button in that panel, so thats ok. I just need to disable some options if you are using old gen
13:03:08  <Trenskow> Bjarni, shouldn't it also per default filter out the ones that doesn't respond?
13:03:25  * guru3 votes yes
13:03:32  <RichK67_wrk> yes, it is currently called "Configure Patches" ... but IMO that is daft; it is the Advanced Options panel (its only cos of TTDP that it is called Config Patches)
13:03:49  <guru3> a tribute to its legacy perhaps
13:04:12  <Tron> which legacy?
13:04:39  <guru3> not really sure
13:04:44  <guru3> just making stuff up to pass the time
13:05:10  <Trenskow> RichK67_wrk, agree.. i think the patches gui looks messy
13:05:11  <Prof_Frink> RichK67_wrk: It shouldn't even be 'Adavnced Options', there should be One Dialogue To Rule Them All
13:05:28  <guru3> hahaha
13:06:23  <Prof_Frink> Add the current Options and Diff Settings as tabs to the Patches dialogue and rename it to 'Options'
13:06:33  <RichK67_wrk> im happy, as long as i dont have to modify my gui to accomodate other terrain generators; its getting quite a big section as is (with all the drop downs etc.)
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13:14:15  <Sacro> afternoon all
13:14:25  <[Shaman]> lo
13:16:38  <RichK67_wrk> bbl
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13:28:33  <[Shaman]> what was the linux command again to find through files? :o
13:28:38  <guru3> locate
13:28:41  <guru3> or find
13:28:43  <guru3> depending
13:28:51  <[Shaman]> inside files
13:28:54  <[Shaman]> not finding files themselves
13:28:58  <[Shaman]> got that part figgured out ^^
13:29:23  <Tron> grep
13:29:42  <[Shaman]> ta
13:29:57  <Tron> j
13:30:06  <Tron> uh, wrong window
13:30:11  <guru3> or fgrep
13:30:41  <vondel> grep -r * -e 'needle'
13:31:44  <Tron> i've never seen anybody using -e
13:32:12  <Prof_Frink> grep -e == egrep and uses extended regex
13:32:23  <Prof_Frink> 'tis useful
13:32:28  <vondel> don't confuse -e and -E
13:32:34  <Tron> Prof_Frink: no
13:32:46  <Tron> Prof_Frink: -e is not egrep
13:32:52  <vondel> -e is usefull to indicate it's not a file
13:32:56  <Prof_Frink> oh, OK, I'm wrong
13:33:25  <[Shaman]> -e, --regexp=PATTERN use PATTERN as a regular expressio
13:33:33  <Tron> vondel: maybe not an option, for stating it's not a file this is rather silly
13:34:02  <[Shaman]> -E, --extended-regexp PATTERN is an extended regular expression
13:34:06  <[Shaman]> they both be regexp
13:34:10  <[Shaman]> one extended, other not.
13:34:22  * Prof_Frink tends to do `<file grep pattern`
13:34:24  <Tron> still i've never seen -e in use
13:35:06  <Tron> uh... -E has no parameter
13:35:13  <vondel> i use it almost always, had some problems in the past when i didn't use it
13:35:31  <vondel> grep confusing my file and expression-arguments
13:35:45  <vondel> i keep forgetting the correct order
13:35:58  <Tron> pattern first, because there can only be one
13:36:04  <Tron> files can be multiple
13:36:17  <vondel> thought processes in my mind are sometimes different
13:36:25  <vondel> and adding a single e isn't much trouble
13:36:45  <Tron> it could be of use if the pattern starts with -
13:36:51  <Tron> but still then i'd use --
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13:37:01  <Tron> because that's the standard way of telling "options end here"
13:37:22  <vondel> or use '' to give an explicit string
13:38:55  <Tron> that doesn't work
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13:39:20  <Tron> %grep '-j' _
13:39:20  <Tron> grep: invalid option -- j
13:39:26  <Tron> '' gets eaten by the shell
13:40:07  <vondel> pity
13:40:15  <Tron> grep -- -j _
13:40:16  <Tron> works
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13:40:57  <vondel> grep test -e '-j' <-- does work for me
13:41:24  <vondel> another example of why -e works
13:41:26  <Tron> of course it does
13:41:33  <Tron> it would still work without the ''
13:41:45  <Tron> no, it isn't, the '' do nothing there
13:42:55  <vondel> yes
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14:36:34  <Bjarni> <Trenskow>	Bjarni, shouldn't it also per default filter out the ones that doesn't respond? <-- well, why would you want to see servers, that fails to respond?
14:36:40  <Bjarni> do you want to try to connect anyway?
14:36:42  <Bjarni> ;)
14:37:22  <Bjarni> sorry for the long reply time (BAD ping time). I'm doing serious work
14:40:00  <Sacro> Bjarni: serious?
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14:41:18  <TL|Away> Sacro: it supprised me too
14:41:27  <bulio> on this page
14:41:29  <Sacro> TL|Away: hehe
14:41:32  <bulio>
14:41:39  <bulio> the semi-faq strategy guide, what map does it use?
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14:41:45  <bulio> I'd like to use it, but with the smaller starting cities and no rails or roads built
14:41:50  <bulio> good for practice
14:42:28  <Sacro> bulio: just generate a basic map
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14:44:12  <Bjarni> <TL|Away>	Sacro: it supprised me too <--- o_O
14:44:27  <Bjarni> I'm actually doing real life stuff
14:44:40  <Sacro> <Bjarni> sorry for the long reply time (BAD ping time). I'm doing serious work <-- you...serious...never :P
14:44:48  <Sacro> real life...? i remember that
14:44:50  <TL|Away> Bjarni: you? Real life?
14:44:51  <TL|Away> ;)
14:45:03  <Bjarni> !slap Sacro
14:45:04  <jmp_ghli> >Bjarni> Bjarni turns Sacro into Michael Jackson. Nice new look, eh?
14:45:08  <bulio> Sacro: tried it
14:45:14  * Sacro slaps Bjarni around with a small 50lb Unix Manual
14:45:18  <bulio> but there's too many trees and bumps
14:45:32  <Sacro> bulio: change the difficulty options
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14:46:10  <bulio> I did
14:46:15  <bulio> very flat, very little water
14:46:29  <Bjarni> <jmp_ghli>	>Bjarni> Bjarni turns Sacro into Michael Jackson. Nice new look, eh? <-- I didn't know that you were into kids. Sacro keep getting weirder and weirder o_O
14:47:02  <Sacro> Bjarni: ahh yeah, ive got loads of kids...
14:47:22  <Bjarni> I meant real kids, not sperm
14:47:47  <Sacro> hmm, well there are rumours about that anywya
14:48:03  <bulio> is there a site I can download maps from?
14:48:13  <Bjarni> yes
14:48:22  <Bjarni> but I forgot the URL :P
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14:48:35  <TL|Away>
14:49:13  <Bjarni> server not found
14:49:17  <Sacro> ditto
14:49:17  <TL|Away> sad
14:49:22  <Bjarni> somehow I think I would remember that URL ;)
14:49:25  <TL|Away> it works here :p
14:49:52  <Bjarni> btw, I found a pretty good homepage, but it's only up once in a while
14:49:54  <Bjarni> you should try it
14:50:00  <Bjarni>
14:50:53  <scia> :o I've yet to install apache :p
14:50:54  <XeryusTC> Bjarni: it's always up here :P
14:52:03  <Bjarni> XeryusTC: then I better call my ISP and ask him why I can't connect all the time
14:52:05  <Bjarni> :P
14:52:22  <Bjarni> btw usually it's down here
14:52:27  <XeryusTC> it could help :)
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14:53:51  <Bjarni> for the record, I'm not one of those guys, who detect hacker attacks from and tries to hack that IP as payback
14:54:06  <Bjarni> those people end up on
14:54:30  <XeryusTC> Bjarni: you ended up on too...
14:54:32  <Bjarni> oh shit, some guy from is trying to hack me. Everybody, try to crash him right away
14:55:00  <Bjarni> XeryusTC: I know, but only at times when I don't look stupid ;)
14:55:12  <XeryusTC> true
14:55:24  <Vornicus> Heh.
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14:55:40  <XeryusTC> your previous line could make the difference though ;)
14:56:17  <bulio> hhm, I can't find any flat maps
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14:56:27  <Vornicus> On my other network (Nightstar) we occasionally would get someone who got pissed off and would say he was going to hack one of the staff.  And then he'd post the hostname, and the IP address.  Admin.Nightstar.Net, and
14:56:32  <Bjarni> nobody quitted quickly after I wrote it
14:56:34  <Bjarni> too bad
14:56:44  <Bjarni> that spoiled a new commit
14:57:32  <Bjarni> Vornicus: how is the freetype thing going. Did you give up?
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14:58:16  <Vornicus> I did, yes.  I can't understand the documentation.
14:58:49  <XeryusTC> Vornicus: you couldn't get freetype to compile
14:58:50  <XeryusTC> ?
14:59:09  <Bjarni> he could not get it to compile a static lib
14:59:54  <Bjarni> image how it will go when I go ahead and tries to crosscompile it to ensure compatibility with Vornicus (and everybody else using that OS)
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15:00:23  <XeryusTC> Vornicus: you're using win32?
15:00:30  <Bjarni> haha
15:00:31  <Vornicus> macosx 10.3.9
15:00:44  <Bjarni> why should I care for windows?
15:00:54  <XeryusTC> dunno
15:01:11  <Bjarni> I don't and if that is a problem, then somebody else will make a patch to fix whatever issue we got
15:01:14  <XeryusTC> i have a freetype win32 static lib around here *somewhere*
15:01:42  <peter1138> hmm
15:02:00  <Bjarni> but I have to deal with the OSX stuff myself as there are very few people, who knows both the OSX source code and how to make universal binaries in OSX
15:02:13  <Bjarni> (am I the only one?)
15:02:23  <peter1138> so does the utf8 stuff not build on osx ?
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15:02:28  <peter1138> i know it does on windows
15:02:31  <peter1138> err
15:02:34  <peter1138> s/on/for/
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15:02:56  <Bjarni> it works
15:03:00  <Bjarni> the issue is more complex
15:03:18  <Bjarni> it's crosscompiling to get a static lib, that works on both PPC and Intel OSX
15:03:22  * XeryusTC tries to download the utf8 branch
15:03:28  <peter1138> hmm
15:03:34  <peter1138> do you need a static lib?
15:03:35  <Bjarni> when I compile to target my own hardware, it works out of the box
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15:03:59  <Bjarni> <peter1138>	do you need a static lib? <-- that's easier than telling people to install libs themselves
15:05:23  <peter1138> are people too stupid to install libs?
15:06:11  * XeryusTC wonders what the hard part about typing "make install" is ;)
15:06:12  <Bjarni> it's more like Apple didn't make it possible by default to install libs in unix style
15:06:35  <Bjarni> so people have to manually install a compiler, then fink (apt-get like app) and then some libs
15:06:42  <Bjarni> most people don't do that
15:06:55  <Sacro> :D
15:07:15  <Sacro> Bjarni: can you not write a shell script to do it?
15:08:00  <Vornicus> to install a compiler?
15:08:06  <peter1138> you need a compiler to install freetype libs? o_O
15:08:22  <Bjarni> I could do a lot of things, but so far the easiest solution have been to get static libs of everything that's needed
15:08:22  <Vornicus> peter: since they don't seem to have a binary floating around, yes.
15:08:26  <Bjarni> it have worked so far
15:08:38  <bulio> where can I download some newbie scenarios? :D
15:08:55  <peter1138> Bjarni: has
15:09:03  <Bjarni> bulio: what's wrong with the buildin map generator?
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15:09:49  <Bjarni> I don't see the big problem in making such a lib
15:10:16  <Bjarni> the only issue is that now I have to crosscompile it, which will likely take a little longer than it would take Vornicus to compile it to his own system
15:10:21  <Bjarni> you know, that configure stuff
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15:10:35  <Bjarni> ./configure; make
15:10:48  <Bjarni> that should do it, but it left out the static lib
15:11:05  <Bjarni> now I need to configure for another system.... tricky, but doable
15:11:56  <Bjarni> peter1138: is iconv used by default in the utf8 branch?
15:12:01  <peter1138> no
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15:22:39  <Sacro> ./configure --static?
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15:44:11  <Vornicus> sacro: nope
15:44:19  <Sacro> lol
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16:47:41  <brygge_2> orudge: the forums is down....
16:47:57  <Prof_Frink> [17:26:14] <@orudge> If tt-forums is down, it'll be because I'm upgrading lighttpd
16:48:22  <brygge_2> ok
16:48:29  <TL|Away> brygge_2: it is not down
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17:04:06  <bulio> I created a scenario
17:04:15  <bulio> but it won't let me make any roads or rails in game
17:04:41  <bulio> how come?
17:05:00  <anboni> does your game happen to be paused?
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17:11:39  <bulio> that explains it
17:11:40  <bulio> thanks
17:11:50  <bulio> also, do industries build themselves over time?
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17:12:06  <anboni> what do you mean?
17:12:45  <Sacro> anboni: press f1
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17:18:51  <bulio> where can I download some scenarios?
17:19:00  <bulio> I'm looking for one with a few cities and a very flat map
17:19:08  <bulio> so I can learn how to build decent railways
17:20:27  <hylje> id have the cities slightly elevated
17:21:09  <bulio> why?
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17:23:51  <hylje> well, cities are cooler when done on elevated ground, and it gives slightly more possibilities overall
17:24:55  <bulio> true
17:25:00  <bulio> theres this tutorial map I have
17:25:07  <bulio> I want to know what map it was using
17:25:31  <bulio> it'd be perfect if the cities were smaller, and it wasn't pre-built
17:26:11  <bulio>
17:26:18  <bulio> on that page, the semi-faq save game
17:28:24  <bulio> any idea what map that is?
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17:31:56  <Belugas> bulio I don't know about the maps you want to have from this page, but if you do a search on the forums, under "scenario", you will be floaded by some quite good ones.
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17:37:37  <bulio> I'm looking for a flat map with some small cities and industries
17:37:40  <bulio> like no elevation
17:37:50  <bulio> and no water inland
17:37:58  <glx> make it yourself with scenario editor
17:38:02  <bulio> tried
17:38:11  <glx> it's really easy
17:38:35  <bulio> but when I go to select build in-game, it doesn't offer me anything
17:38:38  <bulio> no trains and such
17:39:01  <glx> what starting date did you set for the scenario
17:39:04  <glx> ?
17:39:07  <bulio> 1926
17:39:16  <bulio> that explains it then
17:39:20  <bulio> too early for trains?
17:39:44  <glx> too early for everything
17:39:49  <glx> try 1950
17:40:20  <bulio> alright
17:40:31  <bulio> I only placed two industries on my map
17:40:41  <bulio> will others be built randomly as the game goes on?
17:40:52  <glx> you can place more
17:42:28  <glx> only oilrigs, and maybe some other, will appear during the game, but a long time may spend before, so it's better to place them in the scenario
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17:43:52  <RichK67> hey ho folkies
17:44:01  <glx> hi RichK67
17:44:24  <glx> RichK67: wasn't too tired this morning?
17:44:41  <glx> because you were commiting lately last night
17:45:24  <RichK67> ahh - i was about to go to bed, and thought... "ill just get this patch in..."  and then did another as well ;)
17:45:42  <RichK67> as my uni supervisor said "nothing like a deadline to focus the mind"
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17:50:06  <RichK67> i was a bit shocked to see Tron working on tgp.c in MiniIN when i got to work!! but its OK, led to a good discussion, and some useful/interesting ideas
17:50:49  <peter1138> hello
17:51:05  <RichK67> hi peter
17:51:12  <peter1138> have you done the histogram yet? :)
17:51:20  <peter1138> (and would that solve the small maps issue?)
17:51:27  <RichK67> ive been doing this thing called working ;)
17:51:46  <RichK67> but its top of tonights priority - because, yes, it will solve the small maps
17:53:54  <Belugas> hello RichK67
17:54:05  <RichK67> hi Belugas :)
17:54:25  <peter1138> working? hurr hurr
17:54:41  <RichK67> well, ok ... about 50% working ;)
17:55:01  <Belugas> RichK67 : about Tron, a wise old man told me once "Tron is not the enemy".
17:55:12  <Belugas> I always keep that in mind
17:55:30  <Belugas> working... what a dispecable word
17:55:35  <RichK67> it was just a surprise to see him at work "on my baby"... :)
17:55:50  <glx> RichK67: that means he like it
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17:56:02  <Belugas> Imagine his, when he saw bridges commited :)
17:56:13  <RichK67> he's certainly made the comments look prettier ;)
17:56:22  <hylje> i want bridges
17:56:23  <hylje> !
17:56:36  <RichK67> its just the "rework the concept" bit that will be entertaining ;)
17:57:07  <peter1138> hylje: we all do
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17:58:53  <Belugas> the same wise old man told me too "rewrites are beter"
17:59:06  <peter1138> hmm?
17:59:25  <Belugas> the "rework the concept" thing of RichK67 ;)
17:59:29  <hylje> the result is better with each rewrite
18:04:27  <peter1138> like newstations
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18:06:32  <Belugas> like newstations, yes :)  Does it mean you've heard that wise old man too, peter1138 ?  hehehehe
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19:56:16  <Trenskow> it looks like mostly europeans
19:56:47  * Prof_Frink is English!
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20:09:57  <anboni> is it normal for a coal unloader station (with newstations) to have one tile with a piece of track that's at a 90degree angle with the rest of the tracks? but only if the track length is < 5 tiles
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20:12:22  <peter1138> yes, it's normal. it is of course a bug.
20:12:23  <anboni> looks like it's a graphic glitch, the trains will go over it like it's straight
20:12:56  <anboni> bah, no need to get all snappy at me :)
20:13:19  <peter1138> i wasn't
20:13:24  <anboni> ok:)
20:13:40  <anboni> do i need to report it, or are you aware of the circumstances in which it happens?
20:13:53  <RichK67> woohoo ... new TGP (histogram version) ready to upload :)
20:14:37  <XeryusTC> anboni: i noticed the same problem
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20:14:49  <XeryusTC> i think that it is a bug in the grf
20:15:45  <anboni> yeah, looks like it
20:16:23  <guru3>
20:21:33  <CIA-3> richk * r5241 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c: (log message trimmed)
20:21:33  <CIA-3> [MiniIN]: [TGP]: Major modification to the way the algorithm handles water level and terrain height.
20:21:33  <CIA-3> Basic terrain is now stored in a temporary map, and a histogram of the tile
20:21:33  <CIA-3> heights is stored. This is then used to set the water level at accurate
20:21:33  <CIA-3> percentages. Incidentally this now *guarantees* that a small map will have the
20:21:36  <CIA-3> correct amount of water. No small oceans!!
20:21:38  <CIA-3> The rest of the terrain is then scaled to the maximum height set for that terrain type; 6, 9, 12, 15 respectively for Very Flat to Mountainous.
20:22:00  <RichK67> LOL - log message trimmed ;)
20:22:45  <anboni> someone's been rambling :)
20:23:11  <RichK67> as first line says; its a major mod
20:24:13  <anboni> just jerking your chain :)
20:24:42  <RichK67> np; im in a good mood about it :)
20:25:10  <anboni> that change looks interesting :)
20:25:58  <RichK67> previously the water level was a bit hit-and-miss... sometimes you got what you wanted, but mostly it just did its own thing
20:26:06  <RichK67> now it does what you tell it
20:26:24  <anboni> cool:)
20:26:39  <anboni> as soon as bridges goes back into trunk (and thus in Minty) i'll give it a try :)
20:27:20  <anboni> oh btw, how do you feel about the amount of industries TGP places? I got the feeling it's a bit much on some settings
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20:28:33  <RichK67> its exactly the same as normal OTTD, except i know what you mean; at times it just doesnt *feel* the same
20:29:41  <anboni> well, i've never really paid attention to it in the past, but from your words i understand TGP has nothing to do with industry placement?
20:29:47  <XeryusTC> you notice some things faster with TGP, like the high amount of mitters placed together
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20:30:58  <anboni> i noticed it when looking at the in-game map set to display industries (so no landscape visible)
20:31:57  <RichK67> anboni: it does change industry placement, but not how many, just where...
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20:32:42  <RichK67> i think i might need to "stretch" mountainous a bit to give more higher levels
20:32:43  <Tron> RichK67: free()
20:32:53  <RichK67> i did wonder about that...
20:33:05  <RichK67> before the malloc, or at the end of the routine?
20:33:11  <RichK67> or both#
20:33:20  <anboni> well.. i got a 2048x512 map now, which really feels like it's full of industries
20:33:26  <peter1138> end of the routine
20:33:33  <anboni> and that's with amount of industries set to norma
20:33:50  <peter1138> Tron: in MakePCXImage, if sizeof(*palette) isn't 3, what should i do?
20:33:55  <RichK67> btw - Tron & peter... many thanks for the prods and discussion on this... it is definitely better
20:34:02  <Tron> peter1138: which architecture?
20:34:02  <peter1138> (comment it all out, maybe, heh)
20:34:12  <peter1138> "arm-wince-pe"
20:34:21  <peter1138> (got a bit bored)
20:34:26  <Tron> yay, then you have to copy the palette into a byte array
20:34:38  <peter1138> i do like the compiler error...
20:34:40  <peter1138> screenshot.c:391: error: size of array `a' is negative
20:34:49  <Tron> the assert is just a "i'm too lazy to write a copy loop"
20:35:07  <RichK67> "normal" industries is 8 coal @ 256x256... 2048x512 is 8x2 times bigger; so you should have 8*16 coal mines; go on ... count them ;)
20:36:43  <RichK67> adding these lines to the end of the routine... is this correct, before i commit??
20:36:44  <RichK67>      //clean up mallocs
20:36:44  <RichK67>      free(temp_map);
20:36:44  <RichK67>      free(hist_map);
20:37:02  <anboni> RichK67, i'm "guesticounting" around 120, so i guess that sounds about right then :)
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20:38:03  <Tron> RichK67: redundantly redundant comment
20:38:19  <RichK67> IMO, it is too much, and needs scaling back as the map gets bigger.... i think about 48 would look better at that scale; maybe increase the baseline production to compensate; (fewer industries, but each worth more)
20:38:27  <RichK67> okies... no nice comment ;)
20:38:31  <Tron> the only purpose of free() is to free allocated memory
20:38:34  <glx> for ( i=0; i < 1500; i++ ) { hist_map[i] = 0; }   // clear histogram <--- can be replaced by memset or something like that
20:38:51  <Tron> or just use hist_map = calloc(...)
20:39:09  <RichK67> you will have to give me exact syntax; my book here is useless
20:39:31  <RichK67> "malloc - you should use new instead" ... bastard Shoustrup
20:39:41  <Tron> why are *_map static?
20:39:42  <peter1138> that's c++, not c
20:39:55  <RichK67> yup - i dont have a C book
20:40:14  <peter1138> hist_map = calloc(n, sizeof(*hist_map)); (where n is 1500... preferably not the magic number)
20:40:15  <anboni> RichK67, how about just using the "x-size" multiplier, instead of both x and y? So a 2048x512 map would end up with ~64 coal mines instead of 128 with current algo?
20:40:16  <Tron> calloc(number_of_elements, size_of_each_element)
20:41:09  <RichK67> so you want me to set a const int n = 1500; and use it once????
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20:43:25  <RichK67> tell you what, feel free to come in to the code, and correct my non-understanding of how you want me to use this.... (i copied the style from a bit in vehicle.c, so you may want to fix that too ;) )
20:43:28  <Tron> hmhm
20:43:48  <Tron> where's the magical guarantee that temp_map is always between 0 and 1500?
20:43:56  <Tron> (excluding 1500)
20:44:51  <peter1138>       if (temp_map[row * width + col] > max_perlin_height) max_perlin_height = temp_map[row * width + col];
20:44:54  <peter1138>  	429	      if (temp_map[row * width + col] < min_perlin_height) min_perlin_height = temp_map[row * width + col];
20:44:58  <peter1138> contender for clamp() ?
20:45:03  <peter1138> oh
20:45:06  <peter1138> no, ignore me :)
20:45:22  <Tron> rather a temporary var for temp_map[row * width + col]
20:45:29  <RichK67> im beginning to wonder whether to walk away, and let you lot write my patch for me
20:45:56  <peter1138> RichK67: it would be better to stay and watch :)
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20:46:24  <RichK67> not necessarily, as it is demoralising... neither of you have said one positive thing yet
20:46:36  <Tron> my main concern is the 1500
20:46:45  <glx> RichK67: and do it yourself following the advices :)
20:46:48  <RichK67> you wont like the 500 either
20:46:51  <Tron> where's the guarantee that the noise stays within the bounds?
20:48:05  <peter1138> RichK67: not-positive would be ignoring it ;)
20:48:11  <peter1138> hmm
20:48:18  <RichK67> its based on the amplitude... it cant go higher than the sum of the persistence values to their respective powers, multiplied by the amplitude... on current basis, that limits it to about -250 to +580, so ive allowed -500 to +1000 ....
20:49:10  <Trenskow> shouldn't we encourage chris sawyer to come and join the development, with some spaghetti code :D
20:49:21  <RichK67> (incidentally i dont know why the negative side isnt as equally large as the positive... mathematically it could be, but in practice, i have *never* seen it lower than about -220)
20:50:33  <Tron> hmhm
20:51:15  <Tron> i made a dirt cheap implementation and i can calculate the maximum (minimum is zero, i use unsigned values) with a simple power series
20:52:32  <Tron> i halve the amplitude with each octave, so the maximum is twice the amplitude of the first octave (and that only if you have infinite octaves, i just use 10)
20:52:41  <RichK67> ok, is this better;
20:52:42  <RichK67>      const int PerlinHeightLowerLimit = 500;
20:52:42  <RichK67>      const int PerlinHeightUpperLimit = 1500;
20:52:42  <RichK67>      temp_map = calloc(MapSize(), sizeof(*temp_map));
20:52:42  <RichK67>      hist_map = calloc(PerlinHeightLimit, sizeof(*hist_map));
20:53:02  <RichK67> apart from the obvious typo
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20:54:29  <glx> isn't (row * width + col) a TileIndex?
20:54:45  <RichK67> ok, it might be better to have:         const int PerlinHeightLowerLimit = 500;
20:54:46  <RichK67>      const int PerlinHeightUpperLimit = 1000;
20:54:46  <RichK67>
20:54:46  <RichK67>      temp_map = calloc( MapSize(), sizeof(*temp_map) );
20:54:46  <RichK67>      hist_map = calloc( PerlinHeightLowerLimit + PerlinHeightUpperLimit, sizeof(*hist_map) );
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21:01:07  <anboni> is there a reliable way to see exactly what kind of vehicles a .grf includes?
21:01:20  *** TinoM [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:01:35  <glx> anboni: the web site of the grf creator?
21:02:12  <anboni> good point:)
21:05:14  <Sacro> anboni: grfcodec -d :)
21:05:50  <glx> yes that works too :)
21:06:03  <anboni> i found the website already :) and i found out that ukrs doesnt include any freight maglev stuff, it seems :(
21:06:21  <Sacro> anboni: nope, it doesnt
21:06:24  <glx> only passengers, mail and goods
21:06:27  <RichK67> yup - its a bummer :(
21:06:35  <anboni> so i guess i dont want ukrs then :)
21:07:02  <anboni> is it safe to remove ukrs from my configuration if i dont have any vehicles yet?
21:07:22  <glx> if none are used it should work
21:07:26  <RichK67> i spent ages in the runup to maglev, building a wonderful long freight network... ready to maglev it, and boom ... couldnt... wasted several game years ;(
21:07:41  <peter1138> heh
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21:07:51  <peter1138> pikka is going to redo the maglev in ukrs
21:07:56  <peter1138> (as well redoing most of ukrs)
21:08:06  <RichK67> yay!! freight, freight, freight :)
21:08:48  <anboni> did he simply not think of doing freight maglev? or couldnt he because the number of slots was too limited?
21:08:53  <RichK67> peter... shall i commit corrections, or just cut my throat now??? ;)
21:09:22  <peter1138> why not do both!
21:09:26  <anboni> hmm.. this is interesting
21:09:34  <anboni> i managed to make ottd die
21:09:58  <peter1138> that's easy
21:10:02  <anboni> looks like there's a deadlock chance when autosave kicks in at the same time you do a manual save
21:10:06  <Sacro> yep, i know quite a few ways
21:11:52  <anboni> is there anything i can do with this dead process to help pinpoint the problem? or is this a known problem that's just too complex to fix without breaking other things?
21:12:26  <Eddi|zuHause> [12.06. 22:40] <RichK67> (incidentally i dont know why the negative side isnt as equally large as the positive... mathematically it could be, but in practice, i have *never* seen it lower than about -220) <- i would assume because the even powers never get negative ;)
21:12:37  <CIA-3> richk * r5242 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c:
21:12:37  <CIA-3> [MiniIN]: [TGP]: Modified mallocs into callocs. Freed up allocated memory at end of routine.
21:12:37  <CIA-3> Added a couple of consts to clarify what the "magic" numbers 1500 and 500 are.
21:13:15  <RichK67> eddi: great answer... makes sense too! :)
21:14:22  <RichK67> ok - guys, shreddies time.... (RichK watches as his code shatters in his hands.. :(  )
21:15:12  <[Shaman]> o_O
21:15:15  <glx> RichK67: for ( i=0; i < PerlinHeightNegLimit + PerlinHeightPosLimit; i++ ) { hist_map[i] = 0; }   // clear histogram <-- not needed with calloc
21:15:16  <[Shaman]> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :p
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21:15:51  <RichK67> i did wonder... but the comment about that was in the middle of about 6 people talking :(
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21:16:33  <glx> RichK67: calloc came out when we talked about this line :)
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21:17:26  <peter1138> nini
21:17:39  <glx> gn peter1138
21:18:50  <[Shaman]> nn
21:18:55  <RichK67> all that was said was:   [21:38] glx: for ( i=0; i < 1500; i++ ) { hist_map[i] = 0; }   // clear histogram <--- can be replaced by memset or something like that
21:18:55  <RichK67> [21:38] Tron: or just use hist_map = calloc(...)            which is not as clear as "not needed with calloc"
21:19:11  <RichK67> thanks anyway
21:19:13  <RichK67> gn peter
21:19:21  <anboni> looks like with the ukrs removed, i still dont get all vehicles like i should.. bummer, guess i'll get to make my spanky station again :(
21:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> resetengines?
21:21:01  <RichK67> anboni: had you got well into the game, or only just into it;  if the second, rename the .sav, as .scn ... load in ScenGen without grfs, resave, and then select NewGame, and choose the sceanario...
21:21:10  <Darkvater> 'ello
21:21:18  <RichK67> lo Darkvater! :)
21:21:50  <Darkvater> I seem to be kinda absent in the recent past
21:21:52  <anboni> Eddi|zuHause, thanks, hadn't thought of that one.. although that doesnt seem to fix it all either
21:21:56  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit ["Whoopsy"]
21:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you should simply avoid changing newgrfs midgame...
21:23:05  <anboni> yeah, i know.. but it's either this or build this spanky station again in a new game :)
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22:13:40  <KUDr> RichK67: alive?
22:14:04  <RichK67> ngggggggggggghh
22:14:09  <RichK67> sorta ;)
22:14:13  <KUDr> pm
22:14:20  <RichK67> sure
22:15:03  * Sacro hums
22:15:39  <Brianetta> *BANG*
22:15:39  * Brianetta just shot Sacro
22:16:09  * Sacro isnt best pleased about that
22:16:30  <RichK67> KUDr: i can see you, but you dont seem to get my messages
22:16:40  <KUDr> aha
22:16:49  <KUDr> do you want optimized tgp.c with histogram?
22:16:56  <KUDr> much faster
22:16:59  <RichK67> got one already... in MiniIN :)
22:17:02  <KUDr> better terains maybe
22:17:16  <RichK67> ill take a look, sure... might steal the odd idea ;)
22:17:29  <KUDr> ok, sending...
22:18:01  <blathijs> RichK67: You're probably not identified with NickServ? You can't send pm's on FreeNode when you're not identified
22:18:33  <RichK67> yeah, it doesnt seem to remember my identify :(
22:19:16  <RichK67> thanks, yes, that was it
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22:53:42  <Trenskow> now i'll be throwing myself out in creating panels... wish me luck :D
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22:59:28  <bulio> what do transfers do?
23:03:48  <RichK67> not work ;)
23:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause> theoretically, they allow feeder services... like you get small trains that get coal to a hub station, and then a large train that gets the coal all across the map to a power station
23:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but that does not work as well as one might wish ;)
23:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so you should simply ignore it
23:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause> for this to work properly, the game needs cargo packages (with origin and possibly destination of each bit of cargo)
23:07:52  <Eddi|zuHause> or even better: real shunting of wagons
23:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> both are not implemented...
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23:21:46  <bulio> Will big htings be implemented in OpenTTD?
23:21:51  <bulio> Or just small improvements?
23:22:55  <bulio> and secondly, to replace anyhting, I go to the depot, clone it, sell it and use it's copy?
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23:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no, just sell the engine, and by a new one
23:28:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it remembers the orders
23:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and it keeps the wagons (and their cargo)
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23:31:04  <RichK67> lots of big improvements to come; bridges over anything (including diagonal track)... new terrains, new airports, ...
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23:35:24  <CIA-3> richk * r5243 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c:
23:35:24  <CIA-3> [MiniIN]: [TGP]: Further tidying of vars.
23:35:24  <CIA-3> Added routine to adjust the distribution of the terrain heights, giving
23:35:24  <CIA-3> mountainous a bias towards high level terrain, and very flat a bias towards low
23:35:24  <CIA-3> level terrain. Idea for that and help creating the transformation function by
23:35:25  <CIA-3> KUDr.
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23:46:36  <CIA-3> richk * r5244 /branch/MiniIN/tgp.c: [MiniIN]: [TGP]: Protect scale_factor from exceeding 1. This would cause an assert in tile.h.
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