Log for #openttd on 19th August 2006:
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00:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> NAND signals are an ugly excuse for a programmable system...
00:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> load balancers should much rather be done through waypoints
00:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> than signal hacks
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00:16:58  <pv2b> Eddi|zuHause2: why? with NAND signals you can perform any logic :-)
00:17:14  <pv2b> any logical statement can be reduced to a bunch of NANDs
00:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> did you listen? they are UGLY
00:18:10  <pv2b> digital electronics is ugly? :-)
00:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> as are the coop-style priority signals
00:19:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> anything that abuses tracks for anything but train driving is ugly
00:21:11  <Sjoerd_> HI!!!
00:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> as for loadbalancers, i was thinking along those lines:
00:21:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> you make 2 waypoints
00:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> "Loadbalancer A.1"
00:21:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> "Loadbalancer A.2"
00:22:17  <OwenS> 1) More work 2) Imperfect
00:22:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> and whenever a train passes through 1, you switch the names (or a specific token variable)
00:22:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> then you need to modify the pathfinder
00:23:14  <OwenS> I would guess that trains don't care where theyre going once theyve started heading towards it, they would just have the tile
00:23:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> to penalize the waypoint 2 (or the one without token)
00:23:22  <OwenS> I dunno here though
00:23:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> this is also easily expandable
00:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> and does not use any additional track tiles
00:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> much cleaner
00:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> much smaller
00:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> much easier comprehensible
00:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> and should not be a lot of modification
00:24:44  <OwenS> And how do you program the connection that these waypoints have?
00:24:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> of the code
00:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> by checking the name
00:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> of the waypoints
00:25:13  <OwenS> The flickering of a name I can see is ugly IMO
00:25:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> that is a minor detail
00:25:20  <OwenS> And how do you tell it to change the name?
00:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> there are already patches that add variables to waypoints
00:26:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> you can easily add more there
00:26:12  <OwenS> I would prefer to go for programable signals anyway
00:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> to improve the name thing
00:26:17  <OwenS> If we had the map array space
00:26:39  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause2: Not really, we are shockingly space limited in the map array
00:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a transport simulation, no fricking programming contest!
00:27:03  <OwenS> There are some things which are completely undoable without logic
00:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> OwenS: the waypoint stats are not stored in the map array
00:27:20  <DaleStan> But do they need to be done?
00:27:22  <OwenS> Now, we can either have discreet logic (Different signal types) or "integrated circuites" (Programable logic)
00:27:47  <OwenS> Or some things become impossible to do, which are definitely useful
00:28:35  * Sacro watches the young ones
00:28:50  <DaleStan> I'm all for powerful signal setups, but I still haven't seen a layout where a NAND signal was in any way useful.
00:28:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> stations, waypoints, industries, towns, and lots of other stuff store data in memory pools outside the map array
00:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> which have virtually no limitation
00:29:23  <DaleStan> That is "useful for train signalling".
00:29:24  <pv2b> DaleStan: are you talking about presignals, or some new signal i was previously unaware of, btw?
00:30:03  <pv2b> because current presignals are more like or gates.
00:30:13  <DaleStan> pv2b: presigs are OR signals, basically. NANDs will show red if all the ones behind them show green.
00:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> there is a signal rewrite in progress
00:30:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> or at least planned
00:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> and it's goal is to simplify signals, not complicate them...
00:31:03  <pv2b> DaleStan: pointless, in itself. but: since any type of logic can be made using NAND gates, not so pointless after all :-)
00:31:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> -'
00:31:08  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: is it?
00:31:34  <pv2b> you could make a computer in openttd :D
00:31:35  <OwenS> How do you simplify and maintain the current flexibilty?
00:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> the trick is, to do presignalling (90%) automatically
00:32:22  <OwenS> Like Locomotion does?
00:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't know what locomotion does
00:32:52  <DaleStan> But making a computer is not what OpenTTD is for. You can write a prime number generator in John Conway's Game of Life, but is that really useful, or the best use of Life?
00:32:57  <OwenS> 2 or more 2 way signals behind a 1 way signal automatically becomes presignals
00:33:02  <pv2b> DaleStan: no, but it's cool
00:33:04  <pv2b> DaleStan: :D
00:33:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> but the first step was to make the game aware of a "signal block" concept
00:33:17  <pv2b> DaleStan: you could implement the game of life in openttd, and then implement a prime number genreator in life.
00:33:26  <pv2b> in openttd
00:33:28  <OwenS> O.o
00:33:34  <OwenS> How would you show the output? :P
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00:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> from such a signal block, you can already derive most of the standard situations automatically
00:34:07  <pv2b> OwenS: you could pull train tracks to a display area on the map, where red or green signal states would show a dot matrix display
00:34:20  <OwenS> Haha
00:34:46  <lws1984> heh, wouldn't it be cool to have a dotmatrix board as a window for stations?
00:34:52  <lws1984> or one of those flippy ones
00:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> you are getting crazy
00:35:26  <pv2b> lws1984: implemented in openttd signalling logic? :D
00:35:30  <lws1984> well, that's what the second monitor could be for!
00:35:33  <lws1984> pv2b: why not?
00:35:45  <lws1984> I've always wanted to have something like that, makes it easier to keep track
00:35:49  <OwenS> But seriously, what harm does having NAND do? Especially if a patch setting is added to hide it (Enabled by default)
00:36:03  <OwenS> The signal display seems genuinely useful BTW
00:36:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> the harm is that it is a hack
00:36:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> and you will never get this through the devs
00:36:57  <OwenS> How is it a hack?
00:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> it is a gameplay hack
00:37:22  <OwenS> How?
00:37:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> not necessarily a code hack
00:37:59  <OwenS> So, how is it disrupting the gameplay?
00:38:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> it abuses game utilities (tracks&signals) in ways they were never intended to, and are completely unrealistic
00:38:21  <OwenS> So, people could say, do presignals
00:38:28  <OwenS> Presignals are unrealistic also
00:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> presignals DO have a realistic counterpart
00:38:45  <OwenS> If were going for full on realism, lets make trains have set platforms
00:39:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> trains do not have a set platform
00:39:13  <OwenS> They do in real lif
00:39:14  <OwenS> e
00:39:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> only a "preferred" platform
00:39:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> they can spontaneously be rerouted, if the situation occures
00:39:37  <OwenS> I can be GUARENTEED that the train I want will be arriving at it's specified platform
00:39:39  <lws1984> yeah, I'd like that
00:39:40  <OwenS> Only in an emergency
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00:40:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> if another train is late and did not free the platform yet? i would not call that an emergency
00:40:44  <lws1984> nah, it's a "delay"
00:40:49  <OwenS> OK, that is also a possibilty. But the situation is incredibly rare
00:40:57  <OwenS> Or rather, abnormal
00:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> it is not as rare as you might think (or want it to be)
00:41:17  <lws1984> aye, happens all the freakin' time in Boston
00:41:19  <OwenS> Maybe we should give passenger trains timetables.......
00:41:25  <lolman> OwenS, do you not know the British rail system?
00:41:26  <lws1984> real pain in the rear
00:41:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> and on that note: yes, i think trains should have such a platform attached to the orders
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00:42:17  <OwenS> But, still, I can see no objectionable reason against programable signals
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00:43:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> the reason against it, is that they are too complex
00:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> s/, is/is, /
00:44:04  <OwenS> So, you dont want me to have a way to enforce specific constraints; Either signals or scripting
00:44:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> like i said before, this game is no programming contest
00:44:35  <OwenS> Neither do I want it to be
00:44:57  <OwenS> But there are some situations which cannot be enforced without programming; Either in logic gate form or in signal form
00:46:41  <OwenS> These signals, though rare, are certainly mot momexistant
00:46:58  <lolman> not nonexistant*
00:47:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> please show me one signle NAND signal in the real world ;)
00:47:46  <OwenS> Thats why I would like programable signals instead
00:48:01  <OwenS> I would prefer NAND signals only as an interim solution I and a few others use
00:48:13  <mikk36> hey :)
00:48:14  <Sacro> NAND is programmable, in a rudimentary kind of way
00:48:37  <mikk36> does anyone here have leadtek TV2000 XP tv-card ?
00:49:26  <OwenS> Nope
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00:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> let's face it... there are basically 2 standard problems that are not sufficiently covered by the current signalling system (apart from PBS)
00:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> 1) load balancers
00:50:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> 2) priority mainlines
00:50:35  <OwenS> Prohibiting it even though it could confuse new users, even though it would be hidden from them by defualt, just seems silly
00:50:51  <OwenS> And there are others, like enforcing a preference
00:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> you can enforce preferences with waypoints
00:51:30  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: i would like realistic deceleration, with yellow signals
00:51:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> that's like the easiest thing...
00:51:36  <OwenS> No, you cant
00:51:55  <OwenS> In this case I want trains to use a specific (closer) station IF, and ONLY IF, the station I want them to use is full
00:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> that is not actually a standard situation
00:52:47  <OwenS> Yes, it IS not standard. But it isn't nonexistant
00:53:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, for load balancers i suggested the waypoint method
00:53:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> which is MUCH easier and cleaner than the signal method
00:53:50  <OwenS> Possibly, but I would say thats a hack on waypoints
00:53:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> and priorities should be (at least rudimentary) covered by the new signal system
00:53:53  <OwenS> <- EWW
00:54:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> with reserved paths in front of the train
00:54:19  <OwenS> Dedicating a signal to this priority would (IMO) be a waste of a signal type; Programable would do it for me
00:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> the trick is.. it has nothing special with the signal
00:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> it is the TRAIN that gets priorities
00:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> not the signal
00:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> the new signal system changes the behaviour
00:55:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> the signals depend on the train, and not the train depends on the signals
00:56:02  <OwenS> That, IMO, rocks, as long as it remains as flexible as now
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00:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> there is a pdf somewhere outlining what it should do
00:57:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> short summary: trains reserve a path of 2x breaking distance ahead
00:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> signals are default red
00:58:19  <OwenS> Somewhat like Lomo then
00:58:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> and change green if a train reserves a path through it, and the path behind it is free
00:58:36  <pv2b> Eddi|zuHause3: sounds like a lot like what happens in Real Life
00:58:41  <OwenS> I like it, although I would like a way to check my junction is working withoiut sending a train trhough it...
00:58:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> exactly :)
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01:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> the priority thing in there is: fast trains have a long breaking distance, and thus reserve tracks way ahead
01:02:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> so trains from slower side lines have less chance of interrupting the main line
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01:14:38  <Sjoerd_> hi
01:15:39  <lolman> Sjoerd_, ello
01:17:54  <lws1984> good evening Sjoerd_
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02:33:07  <Nigel> where are the miniin's hidden again? I remember someone telling me but the link has gone missing
02:34:19  <Nigel> hmm, never mind, got it
02:35:12  <mikk36> lol
02:35:17  <mikk36> i just found it too for ya :P
02:35:43  <mikk36> took me 30 seconds
02:37:08  <Nigel> I forgot that not everyone uses full lowercase in URL pathnames.... grrr
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02:38:42  <Nigel> actually, i just realised that i'm a hypocrit on that statement
02:39:36  <mikk36> ?
02:44:14  <Nigel> I sent an email before refering to files that i had uploaded to my own site, that had uppercase
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03:47:25  <Nigel> where is openttd.cfg meant to hide out on windows?
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03:47:47  <k-man> hello
03:48:07  <k-man> i wish you could build diagonal tunnels in opentts
03:48:12  <k-man> openttd i mean
03:48:24  <k-man> also, what do you do with passengers?
03:48:32  <Nigel> I wish i could build signals and juctions in the tunnels
03:48:41  <lws1984> k-man: you transport them
03:48:44  <k-man> Nigel, yeah, that too
03:48:55  <k-man> lws1984, but to where? any other station that accepts passengers?
03:48:58  <lws1984> yep
03:49:04  <k-man> ok
03:49:19  <k-man> so they are just like any other item one transports?
03:49:23  <lws1984> aye
03:49:31  <lws1984> just very finicky
03:49:41  <k-man> ok
03:49:42  <lws1984> they just HAVE to have windows in their carraiges
03:49:47  <k-man> hehe
03:50:44  <Nigel> wth, i can't seem to find my .cfg file, werid
03:56:30  <k-man> err.. so can i drop off passengers and pick up new passengers?
03:56:35  <k-man> how do i do that in the orders?
03:56:42  <k-man> all at the one station that is
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04:12:47  <Nigel> can someone look at Transport, 20th Sep 1938.PNG for me, there seems to be something wrong with PBS in the miniin, or my setup
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04:23:33  <Nigel> or is that how they are meant to work?
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04:48:48  <Nigel> yay, PBS just caused a major holdup
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06:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Nigel: the .cfg gets created when you quit the game the first time
06:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and PBS require NPF on and YAPF off
07:10:22  <Nigel> bingo, i had YAPF on
07:11:59  <Nigel> maybe i won't have to kill that subsidary afterall
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07:43:24  <Maedhros> argh, transfers--
07:43:41  <Maedhros> they're making this gradual loading patch so much more difficult
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07:47:05  <xyz> is there a way to see the server name while playing
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07:58:23  <Maedhros> actually... what is the point of the "transfer" order? it's completely useless without Full Load or Unload, and when they're set it doesn't appear to do anything either...
07:58:47  <Nigel> Eddi|zuHause, you saved my Iron Ore subsidary, thanks
08:02:52  <Zavior> Maedhros, it can be used to set up feeders
08:03:31  <Maedhros> Zavior: but can't you do exactly the same with just using Unload and Full Load?
08:04:47  *** Osai^zZz is now known as Osai
08:05:08  <Maedhros> if you send a full train to a station with just "Transfer" in the orders, it will take the cargo away again immediately
08:05:54  <Maedhros> it only unloads the cargo with "Unload" in the orders, and the same effect seems to happen with or without "Transfer"
08:06:42  <Maedhros> and if you use "Transfer" with a station that actually accepts the cargo, you won't get any money from it
08:14:37  <Nigel> Maedhros, transfer + unload
08:14:55  <Nigel> and transfer+load
08:15:10  <Nigel> i guess it makes more sense with the loading in MiniIN
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08:17:01  <Maedhros> Nigel: from what i can see in the code "Transfer" has no effect whatsoever on "Full Load"
08:17:32  <Maedhros> in fact, the only thing it does is to give you virtual money rather than real money if the station accepts the cargo, but you have "Transfer + Unload" in the orders
08:18:16  <Maedhros> i haven't looked at the loading stuff in MiniIN though ;)
08:21:49  * Maedhros looks embarassed
08:22:14  <Maedhros> no, it also leaves the cargo at the station even if the station accepts it with "Transfer"
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08:30:54  <Zavior> I tend to use transfer with busses and passengers trains early
08:31:21  <Zavior> take some busses, set them to transfer passengers to train station
08:32:45  <Maedhros> yeah, i actually tried it and realised i was talking rubbish... :-(
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08:35:28  <Wolf01> hi
08:35:55  <guru3> 'lo
08:36:20  <JohnUK89> Wolf01, ello
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08:55:08  <TrueLight> Morning all
08:55:19  *** TrueLight changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.4.8 | Website: * (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs)
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09:02:26  <TrueLight> Notice to all people on the SVN maillist: incoming burst
09:02:41  <TrueLight> The mail-server refused mails for the last 3 days (virusscanner was crashed)
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09:02:46  <TrueLight> all mails are dequeuing now....
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09:08:50  <Zavior^> See, my connection works
09:12:46  <guru3> lol
09:16:32  <JohnUK89> Better than completely dies :P
09:17:22  <hylje> :|
09:17:38  <JohnUK89> Roll on next month!
09:20:29  <JohnUK89> Next month I move...and get DSL :-D
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09:23:26  <Der_Dirk> hello everyone
09:23:31  <Der_Dirk> I need some gameplay advice
09:23:52  <Der_Dirk> I have a big town (7500+ inhabitants) and a city-size airport in it
09:24:03  <Der_Dirk> however I now want to replace it with a metropolitan-sized one
09:24:09  <hylje> blow up the town
09:24:25  <Der_Dirk> but: there are way too many airplanes flying around / landing for me to replace it
09:24:28  <Der_Dirk> hylje: ...
09:24:44  <JohnUK89> Der_Dirk, but them all into another hangar...
09:24:46  <JohnUK89> put*
09:25:34  <Der_Dirk> JohnUK89 : The problem is: There are about 15 airplanes in the hangar of the one to be replaced
09:25:44  <hylje> fly them elsewhere
09:25:59  <JohnUK89> Der_Dirk, as hylje said, put them in another one :P
09:26:04  <Zavior^> Hopefully they are on shared orders.. :P
09:26:58  <Der_Dirk> I don't suppose so
09:27:30  <Der_Dirk> seems to be the only option
09:27:38  <Der_Dirk> I hoped there would be a less work-intense solution
09:27:44  <hylje> once you have emptied the hangar, it should be trivial to sneak the upgrade when there are no planes landing
09:27:50  <hylje> well
09:28:11  <hylje> aeroplanes are money machines, they ought to have some work in it
09:29:11  <TrueLight> Commit r5943: -Merge TGP (part r5725): -Codechange: renamed Thread to OTTDThread, as Windows
09:29:11  <TrueLight>   (who else) uses Thread in winbase.h, and starts complaining if you define it
09:29:11  <TrueLight>   otherwise (with weird, undefined errors) (tnx Arnau and Rubidium)
09:29:15  <TrueLight> (by lack of CIA :p)
09:30:48  <hylje> appoint TrueLight to be the new CIA
09:31:58  <TrueLight> Commit r5944: -Merge TGP (r5578, r5579, r5724, r5726): -Feature: filter for textboxes to only
09:31:58  <TrueLight>   allow certain patterns (like numbers only)
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09:45:42  <Naksu> er
09:45:50  <Naksu> why not just run an announce bot like cia?
09:46:14  <JohnUK89> Naksu, because CIA is still on Freenode
09:46:50  *** Rens2Sea [~Rens2Sea@] has joined #openttd
09:47:30  <TrueLight> and the CIA guys are 'too busy'
09:47:38  <TrueLight> (really bad service I just call it, but what ever)
09:47:39  <Naksu> er i mean, you could run a bot with CIA-like functionality
09:47:44  <TrueLight> is being worked on
09:47:50  <TrueLight> just one thing at the time
09:48:09  <Nigel> hmm
09:48:35  <Nigel> wish i could transfer money between subsidary companies easier
09:49:35  <Nigel> my subsidary is making money too quickly
09:51:10  <Der_Dirk> phew, got the airport exchanged
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09:51:59  <Viper1> Hi to all!
09:52:25  <Viper1> I've a question, may be somebody know answer.
09:52:44  <Patrick`> Nigel: request that the subsidiary maintainer allow you to set a "auto transfer money to me" limit
09:53:10  <Nigel> thats a good idea
09:53:32  <Nigel> 70% off profits at end of year (assuming that the company made a +)
09:53:47  <Nigel> configurable of course
09:54:42  <Nigel> so for a new subsidaries you can have a 'cover losses', for older ones, 'transfer x% to parent'
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09:55:57  <Nigel> but also, clicking on 20k buttons is a pain
09:56:19  <Viper1> Why income has non-linear character? Trasporting 20 squares 20 days is dramaticaly worse, than transporting  10 squares 10 days?
09:57:59  <Viper1> This tends player to build short-way tracks, making game little less interest.
09:58:20  <hylje> i build really long way anyway
09:59:22  <Viper1> heh, that's little problem. You may build long way track, but you will negative profit on it, whatever you transport.
09:59:25  <JohnUK89> Viper, because in real life, the cost of say a train increases non-linearly with distance
09:59:51  <hylje> Viper1: not really, each train profits pretty well
09:59:52  <JohnUK89> Viper1, actually longer, well maintained lines tend to make the most profit
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10:00:00  <hylje> Viper1: paying itself back in four-five trips
10:00:11  <Der_Dirk> do you have some tutorials for railway-signal-stations?
10:00:13  <Viper1> I'm working on railroad.
10:00:17  <Patrick`> Viper1: it only works out less if you go below a certain speed
10:00:26  <Der_Dirk> my trains tend to wind up confused
10:00:28  <Patrick`> I think trucks cost more to go far
10:00:50  <Patrick`> even with the first steam trains, you make money if you go a long distance
10:00:50  <Viper1> And I know, that long way moving cargo for real railroad is more profittable, than short way.
10:00:53  <JohnUK89> I never use trucks, not enough profit in them
10:00:58  <TrueLight> Commit 5946 (big one):
10:00:59  <TrueLight> -Add: merged the TGP branch to mainline. TGP adds:
10:00:59  <TrueLight>   - New optional landscape generator (TerraGenesis Perlin)
10:00:59  <TrueLight>   - Load heightmaps (either BMP or PNG)
10:00:59  <TrueLight>   - Progress dialog while generating worlds (no longer a 'hanging' screen)
10:00:59  <TrueLight>   - New dialogs for NewGame, Create Scenario and Play Heightmap
10:01:00  <Patrick`> who does ...
10:01:01  <TrueLight>     - Easier to configure your landscape
10:01:01  <TrueLight>     - More things to configure (tree-placer, ..)
10:01:06  <TrueLight> - Speedup of world generation
10:01:06  <TrueLight>   - New console command 'restart': restart the map EXACTLY as it was when you
10:01:06  <TrueLight>       first started it (needs a game made after or with this commit)
10:01:06  <TrueLight>   - New console command 'getseed': get the seed of your map and share it with
10:01:08  <TrueLight>       others (of course only works with generated maps)
10:01:08  <TrueLight>   - Many new, world generation related, things
10:01:10  <TrueLight>   - Many internal cleanups and rewrites
10:01:11  <TrueLight> Many tnx to those people who helped making this:
10:01:11  <TrueLight>      Belugas, DaleStan, glx, KUDr, RichK67, Rubidium, and TrueLight (alfabetic)
10:01:11  <TrueLight>   Many tnx to those who helped testing:
10:01:13  <TrueLight>      Arnau, Bjarni, and tokai (alfabetic)
10:01:13  <TrueLight>   And to all other people who helped testing and sending comments / bugs
10:01:15  <TrueLight>   Stats: 673 lines changed, 3534 new lines, 79 new strings
10:01:15  <TrueLight> There! :)
10:01:19  <Patrick`> sweet jesus
10:01:26  <Viper1> But game tends plaer - "Short is better, than long!@
10:01:41  <Patrick`> Viper1: not in my experience
10:01:51  <Patrick`> longer routes cost more to build but they make more per year
10:01:52  <JohnUK89> Viper1, not really, if you keep speed up long lines make more profit
10:01:59  <Patrick`> so always build as long as you can
10:02:27  <Viper1> No!
10:02:35  <Viper1> That's mistake. :)
10:02:35  <Rubidium> Tron: found a bug in the steep sloped feature in conjunction with the catenary draw code; <- no grfs, just upgrade the mentioned pieces of track to electrified railway
10:03:21  <JohnUK89> Viper1, how is it? It's the way the game is
10:03:44  <Viper1> I'm asking developers, if they are present here :)
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10:04:24  <Viper1> I saw Sources and found, that there's multiplicator.
10:05:07  <Viper1> It changes from 255 to 31, making less income on long way route.
10:05:30  <JohnUK89> which source file was this in?
10:05:39  <Viper1> Economy.c
10:05:52  <Tron> Rubidium: hmhm, the elrail code claims there's more than one track on that tile ... fascinating
10:05:53  <Viper1> Wait a sec, say func name
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10:06:45  <Viper1> int32 GetTransportedGoodsIncome(uint num_pieces, uint dist, byte transit_days, byte cargo_type)
10:06:57  <Viper1> There's calc income from cargo.
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10:07:30  <Nigel> TrueLight, how big are you going to make commit 6000?
10:07:47  <TrueLight> Nigel: most likely it will be _really_ small :p
10:08:06  <Nigel> thats what i was thinking :P
10:08:12  *** Zaviori [] has quit []
10:08:17  <TrueLight> Hmm
10:08:22  <TrueLight> I need someone with a bit of TCL knowledge
10:08:39  <Viper1> So, transporting cargo on 20 squares with 20 days able to give income less, than transporting 10 squares with 10 dyas
10:08:51  *** Zaviori [] has joined #openttd
10:09:10  <TrueLight> Viper1: for livestock that is correct :p
10:09:16  <Nigel> TrueLight, not me sorry
10:09:21  *** Spoco [] has joined #openttd
10:09:25  <Viper1> That's correct for all cargo.
10:09:48  *** Belugas_Gone [~Jfranc@] has joined #openttd
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10:09:55  <Nigel> I love doing things just to annoy competitors
10:10:05  <Nigel> Road Reconstruction for example :P
10:10:28  <Viper1> But sad, game has not any Graph, where player can explain what limit of route for some kind of cargo.
10:11:09  <Viper1> And this fact remove "trans-country" route form game.
10:11:17  <Viper1> *form
10:11:21  <Viper1> *from
10:11:47  <Nigel> Viper1, there is a graph for payouts
10:12:04  <Viper1> It mistakes player
10:12:11  <Nigel> click on graph next to cup and 'cargo payment rates'
10:12:28  <Viper1> Yet antother say - It mistakes player
10:12:38  <Viper1> What see player?
10:13:00  <JohnUK89> No it doesn't, the X axis shows amount of days and the Y axis shows the amount paid for 20 units
10:13:21  <Viper1> Yet antoher say - It mistakes player
10:13:43  <TrueLight> Viper1: you said tha tline twice now, and I still can't make anything out of it :s
10:14:10  <Viper1> Just respond for little question - if you have twice length route, does you get twice income?
10:14:24  <Viper1> No, you will income less.
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10:14:53  <JohnUK89> less PER SQUARE
10:15:09  <JohnUK89> Simply because it takes longer to get to its destination
10:15:43  <Viper1> But game has not this graph.
10:15:54  <JohnUK89> It does
10:16:02  <JohnUK89> It's called Cargo Payment Rates
10:16:17  <Viper1> Ok.
10:16:24  <Viper1> Let make a test.
10:17:09  <JohnUK89> I'll make a quick scenario ;-)
10:18:03  <Viper1> this graph say my - "10 units of wood, transported on 20 squares with 10 days give you 196 pounds"
10:18:41  <Viper1> Qustion - how I aquire with trasport "10 units of wood on 40 squares on 20 days"?
10:19:08  <JohnUK89> Get the rate for 20 units and half it
10:19:18  <JohnUK89> :P
10:19:24  <Viper1> How I will aquire with transpor "10 units of wwod on 80 squares on 40 days"?
10:19:44  <JohnUK89> It's simple maths
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10:20:28  <Viper1> Where's you see "simple math"?
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10:21:25  <Viper1> What should do a player to discover best route length?
10:21:29  <Der_Dirk> cya guys, I'm off
10:21:33  <JohnUK89> I see simple maths as you just get the rate for 10 units 20 squares and multiply/divide it depending on the amount of units and squares
10:21:41  <Viper1> Damn!
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10:22:42  <JohnUK89> The amount  of time it takes is the main factor that reduces profit per square on larger lines
10:23:14  <Viper1> Okay, I agreed.
10:23:15  <JohnUK89> But the amount of squares is usually sufficient to outbalance it to produce a larger profit for the whole line against a smaller one
10:23:54  <Viper1> but why per square income dropped 8 times on long route?
10:24:06  <Viper1> Where ever you transport it on aircraft?
10:24:16  <JohnUK89> Viper1, I don't quite understand the question there
10:24:27  <Viper1> Look yet more time
10:24:47  <Viper1> let's look on graph "Cargo payment rate'
10:25:02  <Viper1> we see that "10 units of wood, transported on 20 squares with 10 days give you 196 pounds"
10:25:30  <JohnUK89> Not on my graph...
10:25:47  <JohnUK89> Says £118-ish here
10:25:56  <Patrick`> inflation?
10:26:07  <Viper1> not
10:26:20  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, probably...I just started a new game
10:26:36  <Patrick`> actually, I agree with john
10:26:41  <Viper1> player thinks, that if he has a speed, that allow him to
10:26:51  <Patrick`> Viper1: so what's the problem?
10:26:51  <Viper1> to transport "10 units of wood, transported on 20 squares with 10 days give you 196 pounds"
10:27:02  <Patrick`> the lower axis of that graph is time, not distance.
10:27:14  <Viper1> and he build track with 200 squares
10:27:48  <JohnUK89> Viper1, how long does it take said train to cover the 200 squares with wood onboard?
10:27:48  <Viper1> hi discovered, that hi gave not 1960 pounds.
10:28:15  <Patrick`> Viper1: longer routes are more profitable.
10:28:20  <Patrick`> if you disagree then you are wrong
10:28:30  <Patrick`> however, I'll help you understand why
10:28:38  <Patrick`> keep going
10:28:39  <JohnUK89> The reason it isn't linear is time
10:28:48  <Viper1> Yes,
10:28:51  <Viper1> of course.
10:28:57  <Viper1> there's limit 255 days
10:29:28  <Patrick`> after which time the payment has only hone down to 78 pounds per 20 squares
10:29:58  <Viper1> Patrick, but I'm rout goods on 200 squares
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10:30:10  <JohnUK89> What are you suggesting? That the developers change the datatype of the time variable and eat up more memory?
10:30:13  <Patrick`> so that's 780 pounds per 200 squares
10:30:25  <Patrick`> I don't actually understand what your problem is
10:30:32  <Viper1> okay
10:30:47  <Viper1> give three expamples
10:30:50  <Patrick`> if you can go 200 squares to a sawmill or 400 squares to a sawmill, 400 squares makes more money
10:30:56  <JohnUK89> If a route is taking longer than 200 days to transport its goods there is a problem with the route
10:30:57  <Viper1> You wrong
10:31:01  <Patrick`> no, you wrong.
10:31:19  <Viper1> You'll give penalty for long routing
10:31:22  <Patrick`> each load might give less but you have twice as many loads
10:31:25  <Patrick`> no, you don't
10:31:33  <Patrick`> the ONLY penalty is time.
10:31:39  <Viper1> f = 255;
10:31:39  <Viper1> 	if (transit_days > _cargoc.transit_days_1[cargo]) {
10:31:39  <Viper1> 		transit_days -= _cargoc.transit_days_1[cargo];
10:31:39  <Viper1> 		f -= transit_days;
10:31:39  <Viper1> 		if (transit_days > _cargoc.transit_days_2[cargo]) {
10:31:40  <Patrick`> and time is time for more wood to grow
10:31:41  <Viper1> 			transit_days -= _cargoc.transit_days_2[cargo];
10:31:41  <Viper1> 			if (f < transit_days)
10:31:43  <Viper1> 				f = 0;
10:31:43  <Viper1> 			else
10:31:45  <Viper1> 				f -= transit_days;
10:31:45  <Viper1> 		}
10:31:47  <Viper1> 	}
10:31:47  <Viper1> 	if (f < 31) f = 31;
10:31:49  <Patrick`> please don't do that.
10:31:49  <Viper1> 	return BIGMULSS(dist * f * num_pieces, _cargo_payment_rates[cargo], 21);
10:31:49  <Viper1> }
10:31:52  <Viper1> There's code to calc income
10:31:58  <JohnUK89> Viper1, we have access to the source, thanks ;-)
10:32:19  <Viper1> As we see, income depends of "f" variable
10:32:41  <Patrick`> yes.
10:32:47  <Viper1> this may be 255 on short routs
10:32:51  <Patrick`> income also depends on the distance.
10:32:57  <Patrick`> if you double the distance, f goes down
10:33:07  <Viper1> yes!
10:33:08  <Patrick`> but (dist * f) goes up
10:33:13  <Patrick`> you fucking idiot. No offense.
10:33:18  <Viper1> no.
10:33:23  <Patrick`> yes, yes it does.
10:33:34  <Viper1> 255*10> 31*20
10:33:48  <Viper1> for example.
10:33:55  <Patrick`> yes but it does not take you a million days to go 10 tiles
10:34:05  <JohnUK89> Viper1, do me a favor and change the value of f, then recompile, see what the graph looks like then ;-)
10:34:06  <Patrick`> there is a certain speed at which what you say becomes true
10:34:18  <Patrick`> if you go so slow, then you are right.
10:34:25  <Viper1> But if I fast?
10:34:31  <Patrick`> then I am right
10:34:39  <Patrick`> that speed where it changes is about 40MPG
10:34:42  <Patrick`> *40MPH
10:34:46  <JohnUK89> If a route takes longer than 255 days (at which point f becomes 0) then there is a problem with your line
10:35:15  <Viper1> Yes,
10:35:28  <Viper1> that's prohibites me from long route building
10:35:33  <JohnUK89> No
10:35:38  <Patrick`> as long as your trains are not the cheapest type of train that exists, then you get more money from going long distances
10:35:44  <Patrick`> no matter how long or how much they cost.
10:35:47  <Viper1> Patrick
10:35:49  <JohnUK89> You being unable to plan fast routes prohibits you
10:36:04  <Viper1> look at "f" variable.
10:36:28  <Viper1> it give you, for example, 255 per square on short route
10:36:36  <Patrick`> yes.
10:36:48  <Viper1> but on long, it give you, in that example 31 per square
10:37:03  <Patrick`> if you go for that much time, you have gone a very big distance
10:37:13  <Patrick`> which multiplies up to a larger number than 255*10
10:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you did not understand the f variable correctly
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10:37:38  <Viper1> f - prohibiting long range distance routing
10:37:40  <hylje> so if i transport stuff with (fast) trains across a 2048 tile map, f can drop to 0
10:37:42  * JohnUK89 reads where f is remapped to 31 if it is smaller than 31
10:37:48  <Viper1> Yes.
10:37:57  <Viper1> And you will not gave an income!
10:38:12  <Patrick`> no.
10:38:12  <hylje> but i recall doing that before and it did give income
10:38:22  <Patrick`> f can only ever drop to 31.
10:38:26  <Patrick`> and then you WILL get an income
10:38:38  <Patrick`> plus, because each train takes longer you need more of them, so more money
10:38:55  <Viper1> let two example trains
10:39:08  <Viper1> one of them route on 20 squares.
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10:39:20  <Viper1> with 10 days
10:39:46  <Viper1> second train goes on 40 squares with equal speed on 20 days.
10:40:03  <Viper1> 40 days
10:40:17  <Patrick`> no, 20 days
10:40:21  <Viper1> first train make two loading
10:40:40  <Viper1> second train - make one loading
10:40:50  <Patrick`> the first train is transporting twice as much cargo per year.
10:40:54  <Patrick`> it is making maybe 10% more money.
10:41:02  <Patrick`> what you do is put two trains on the second route
10:41:14  <Patrick`> and make 180% more money out of the same cargo
10:41:37  <Viper1> Patrick, you lol. :0
10:41:48  <Patrick`> do you even know about signals?
10:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause> this formula is probably going to be considered for rebalancing if we get cargo packets
10:42:40  <Patrick`> anyway, 20 tiles in 10 days is very very slow
10:43:32  <Viper1> So my may question, "why developers prohibites players from long route building?
10:43:49  <Patrick`> Viper1: your question makes no sense. you have a flawed understanding of the game.
10:44:02  <Viper1> Dropping Per Square Income form 255 to 31.
10:44:06  <Patrick`> I have many long routes and they make £100,000 per train
10:44:10  <Patrick`> and i have 20 trains
10:44:13  <Patrick`> on each route
10:44:21  <Patrick`> that is from one 200 ton coal mine
10:44:30  <Viper1> Patrick, play at Hard level
10:44:51  <Patrick`> I play at custom where everything is as hard as it can possibly be.
10:44:54  <Patrick`> it is still too easy.
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10:47:07  <JohnUK89> Right what did I miss?
10:47:08  <JohnUK89> Lol
10:48:31  <Viper1> My disaggree dropping Per Square Income multiplicator from 255 to 31
10:48:36  <Viper1> on long routes.
10:48:54  <Viper1> No more interessted there were.
10:48:59  <JohnUK89> I don't think you understand what f does
10:49:35  <Patrick`> Viper1: it is not that nobody else cares.
10:49:36  <JohnUK89> it is 255 minus the amount of DAYS the cargo has taken to get to its destination
10:49:47  <Patrick`> it is that nobody else believes you as opposed to what they see in reality.
10:50:09  <Patrick`> Viper1: yeah, 255 minus days!
10:50:13  <JohnUK89> The amount of squares is irrelevant when f is being calculated
10:50:37  <Patrick`> in your original example the train going twice as many tiles in 40 days makes more money
10:50:49  <Patrick`> I feel shame for not noticing that earlier
10:50:57  <Patrick`> and prolonging your ignorance
10:51:37  <Viper1> Jonh, player think - "Twice route, twice more money per  one transit, twice less transits"
10:51:48  <Patrick`> yes.
10:52:05  <Viper1> but, players wrong.
10:52:06  <Patrick`> instead of making twice as much money, they only make 1.9 times as much money due to f
10:52:14  <Patrick`> OH NO EVERYBODY PANIC
10:52:36  <JohnUK89> You're still making more money overall on the longer route
10:53:02  <Patrick`> we have finally found why what you believe does not agree with reality.
10:53:06  <Patrick`> now will you accept it?
10:54:56  <Patrick`> your suspicious silence tells me you are trying to salvage some dignity ;)
10:55:33  <Viper1> I think, players need such graph -
10:55:42  <JohnUK89> Viper1, it already exists
10:55:52  <JohnUK89> The players just need to use some simple maths
10:56:13  <Patrick`> now if we were closed source this would not happen
10:56:40  <Viper1> "Per square income depends on trasit days"
10:57:10  <JohnUK89> Viper1, yes, the X axis on the cargo payment rates graph shows time in days
10:58:00  <Patrick`> I told you this right as the first thing I said ;)
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10:59:46  <JohnUK89> Now, any other blatantly wrong points you want to argue about Viper1 ?
10:59:57  <JohnUK89> I'm free all day ;-)
11:00:17  <Viper1> damn.
11:00:53  <Viper1> No one graph can give explaration income for certain user of certain route with certain speed and cargo.
11:01:12  <Patrick`> just trust that longer makes more money
11:01:33  <Patrick`> JohnUK89: well, I was wondering why the ottd developers chose to make the sun rise in the north .
11:02:01  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, well I'm not sure on that one...ask Darkvater ;-)
11:02:38  <Patrick`> or why truelight decided to make burgers come in packs of 6 and buns in packs of 8
11:02:44  <JohnUK89> Viper1, If you have the amount of days said cargo takes to get to its destination, the amount of units and the cargo type, as well as the amount of squares you can
11:02:49  <hylje> does yapf have a penalty if route goes through a station?
11:02:59  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, because TrueLight is strange ;-)
11:03:01  <hylje> (assuming said station is not the destination)
11:03:17  <Patrick`> is the XY thing still true?
11:03:27  <Patrick`> about delivery distance being calculated as delta_x plus delta_y
11:03:55  <Viper1> That's look like player's corp give discount for long routing.
11:04:33  <Viper1> but this discount enormous - 8.225 times
11:05:40  <JohnUK89> Viper1, explain...
11:05:50  <Patrick`> yes, that is how much more money you will get.
11:05:58  <Viper1> discount per square
11:06:08  <Viper1> Less, per square.
11:06:20  <JohnUK89> Hmm...I spy someone on MiniIN methinks
11:07:21  <Patrick`> yes, now would be the typical time when someone arguing a point about the code reveals that they are using unsupported patches which alter what they were shouting about
11:07:35  <Patrick`> "oh, I didn't think it was important " ...
11:07:39  <Viper1> f will 255 on very short routes dropping down 31 on long routes
11:08:04  <JohnUK89> Viper1, depending on time taken, remember that f is 255 minus number of days taken
11:08:14  <Viper1> Yes, of course.
11:08:17  <JohnUK89> with f's lowest value being 31
11:08:25  <Patrick`> any route that takes 200 days is very very very long
11:08:25  <Viper1> yes, of course.
11:08:32  <JohnUK89> And may I ask if you are on MiniIN?
11:08:34  <Patrick`> and goes a very long distance
11:08:35  <Viper1> yes, of course.
11:08:37  <Patrick`> perhaps 1000 tiles
11:08:43  <Viper1> Yes, it is.
11:08:53  <Patrick`> and that still makes more money
11:08:54  <Viper1> but why game get such enormous discount?
11:09:10  <Viper1> Per tile?
11:09:19  <Patrick`> because otherwise going long distances would make you a million instantly
11:09:37  <Viper1> But it's looks like real life. :)
11:09:46  <JohnUK89> Viper1, that's the idea
11:09:48  <Viper1> Two more long route - two more long pay
11:09:55  <JohnUK89> And no
11:10:01  <Patrick`> some cargo types, yes.
11:10:12  <Patrick`> coal and ore it does not matter how long they take
11:10:16  <Patrick`> but people and mail
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11:10:59  <Patrick`> however, the code currently "discounts" all cargo types.
11:11:40  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, so what Viper1 says "discount" he means "reduction in per unit payout"
11:11:49  <JohnUK89> when*
11:12:02  <Patrick`> yes.
11:12:08  <Viper1> per unit per tile.
11:12:14  <Viper1> on long routes.
11:12:18  <Darkvater> morning
11:12:19  <Patrick`> I'm trying not to let ESL get in the way of demolishing his argument.
11:12:22  <Patrick`> no, it is per day.
11:12:27  <Darkvater> DaleStan: brilliant reply to inverted on the forums :D
11:12:28  <Viper1> with long days
11:12:30  <Patrick`> per tile will depend on how fast the train is.
11:12:35  <Darkvater> eya TrueLight ^^
11:13:15  <TrueLight> hi Darkvater :)
11:13:26  <TrueLight> we managed to split it up a bit
11:13:30  <TrueLight> but more was almost impossible
11:13:35  <TrueLight> I hope you are happy with it :)
11:14:00  <Darkvater> yep, seen that. I won't complain about some other totally unrelated changes in the TGP code ;)
11:14:12  <TrueLight> I noticed one...
11:14:17  <TrueLight> I just can't remember it :p
11:14:51  <JohnUK89> Viper1, what do you think affects the amount of profit on a long line?
11:15:07  <Darkvater> *ehm* YEAR_ENGINE_AGING_STOPS = 2050,
11:15:09  <Darkvater> ;p
11:15:15  <TrueLight> Darkvater: ah, no, that is very much related
11:15:41  <Darkvater> const uint16 aging_date < I think this should be Date though, right Rubidium ?
11:15:55  <TrueLight> because the bug was that when you start a game in 2050, things went wrong :p
11:16:31  <TrueLight> Darkvater: nice spot, Rubidium is away, but you might be right yes
11:17:40  * JohnUK89 needs food, bbs
11:18:10  <Viper1> Jonh, players thinks, that two times long route give them two times income with two time less number of transits.
11:18:25  * JohnUK89 disrupts break
11:18:38  <Viper1> but because "f" variable - it is not correct
11:18:45  <TrueLight> Darkvater: for the CIA-alike bot I need something that converts the data to a format we like... just I dunno yet which format that should be :)
11:18:51  <JohnUK89> Viper1, wrong, because the longer route takes longer to get there
11:18:58  <Darkvater> TrueLight: svn log -rXXX?
11:19:11  <TrueLight> Darkvater: that format is very ugly yes :)
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11:19:41  <Darkvater> why is it ugly?
11:19:47  <Darkvater> that is what CIA used until now
11:19:49  <JohnUK89> Viper1, when the amount of days double, f does not half, it only reduces by the same amount that the amount of days have eg if it gas gone from 10 to 20 days, f will go from 245 to 235
11:20:05  <Nigel> god, my competitor is dumb
11:20:15  <JohnUK89> has*
11:20:15  <TrueLight> Darkvater: did you ever entered that command?
11:20:19  <Patrick`> still this f'in problem?
11:20:27  <Patrick`> Nigel: this sounds like it has a followup ..
11:20:29  <Patrick`> go on
11:20:29  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, yes
11:20:30  <TrueLight> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
11:20:30  <TrueLight> r5947 | truelight | 2006-08-19 12:05:44 +0200 (Sat, 19 Aug 2006) | 2 lines
11:20:30  <TrueLight> -Remove: remove TGP branch as it is now merged into mainline
11:20:31  <TrueLight> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
11:20:31  <TrueLight> That isn't really pretty :) And CIA did NOT use it...
11:20:54  <Viper1> Jonh, f rush to 31 on long routes
11:21:09  <Rexxie> yay for TGP being merged btw ;)
11:21:10  <Nigel> Patrick`, I killed a couple of intersections and brought the land
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11:21:35  <Nigel> there is however a really simple roading project that the competitor could do to resume their services
11:21:37  <Viper1> Every players knows, that income per tile affected with speed.
11:21:39  <JohnUK89> Viper1, the route would have to take more than 224 days to get there, implying a problem with the line
11:22:09  <Nigel> oh well, it's now a hotel :P
11:22:09  <Patrick`> Viper1: not directly
11:22:10  <Viper1> But no one know, that length of route affected a per-tile pay.
11:22:29  <JohnUK89> Viper1, the length doesn't, the amount of time does
11:22:41  <Patrick`> you seem to be struggling under the wrong idea that we have somehow decieved you
11:22:55  <Viper1> Two times longer route get two times more time
11:22:55  <Patrick`> like the man who mistrusts the goverment because he thinks they are hiding proof of aliens
11:23:13  <Viper1> with equal speed.
11:23:15  <JohnUK89> Viper1, yes, but as I explained, f doesn't half when time doubles
11:23:31  <Viper1> f may drop to 31.
11:23:39  <Viper1> from 255
11:23:47  <JohnUK89> yesh, but it has to take longer that 224 days to do so
11:23:50  <JohnUK89> -h
11:23:51  <Patrick`> f only drops to 31 if you have done something wrong.
11:24:03  <Patrick`> so shut up, you are making yourself look like a man who cannot design a straight line
11:24:45  <Viper1> But why game prevents from such long tracks?
11:24:50  <JohnUK89> It took me one look at that function to know that this is what happens, and I'm not even a programmer
11:25:00  <JohnUK89> Viper1, it DOESN'T!
11:25:11  <Viper1> Heh.
11:25:25  <Viper1> Stop talking, I can explain a problem.
11:25:28  <JohnUK89> By the looks of things you must be in the 21st century on your game...stick a monorail there!
11:25:29  <Viper1> *can't
11:25:56  <Patrick`> if you build a track that is 2000 tiles long and you put steam trains on it they might take a year to go along it
11:26:02  <Patrick`> so f might perhaps be 31
11:26:05  <JohnUK89> It is simply the amount of time taken for the route that decreases payout
11:26:10  <Patrick`> but, you still make money
11:26:41  <Patrick`> Viper1: you think that as soon as you re-explain it again we will suddenly understand and agree with you?
11:26:51  <Patrick`> we already know what you are trying to say and it is just wrong.
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11:27:20  <JohnUK89> As said, I am not a programmer, and even I can understand what goes on in that function by looking at it
11:27:43  <Viper1> And I understand how it works.
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11:27:55  <JohnUK89> Viper1, obviously not
11:28:14  *** TinoM| [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:28:15  <JohnUK89> Otherwise you would have realised that you are talking utter tripe :)
11:29:08  <TrueLight> Commit r5948: -Fix: inversed check caused oringal land-generator to put industries on mountains (tnx Darkvater)
11:29:14  <Patrick`> perhaps you think that because you can read the C that you are somehow incapable of misinterpreting it?
11:29:22  <Patrick`> TrueLight: ooh, sounds like a fun revision to check out ...
11:29:31  <Patrick`> "yes, let's haul coal from peak to peak!
11:29:38  <TrueLight> :)
11:30:14  <JohnUK89> If only you could build a bridge between two mountains ;-)
11:30:29  <Patrick`> haha
11:30:35  <Patrick`> signals on bridges, come on!
11:30:39  <JohnUK89> :-D
11:30:44  <Viper1> Let's imagine two trains running "head-to-head" on parallel tracks with equal cargo, with equal speed. All equal, but one going for 10 tiles, second for 2000 tiles. First get 255 income per every tile, second 31 per tile.
11:31:10  <Patrick`> yes.
11:31:12  <Viper1> I'm disagree this fact :)
11:31:15  <Patrick`> the second one makes more money.
11:31:16  <Nigel> yeah, i want to make complex tunnels (i.e. junctions and signals etc), and signals on bridges
11:31:34  <Patrick`> a LOT more money.
11:31:50  <Patrick`> and also you can put more trains on the second track to deliver the same amount of cargo
11:31:51  <Viper1> But per tile - more less.
11:31:57  <Patrick`> per tile, less.
11:31:58  <JohnUK89> first gets 2550, second one 62000
11:32:05  <Nigel> ohhhh I am mean, i just caused one company to delete their bus stop
11:32:08  <Patrick`> but it is only less BECAUSE you are going further
11:32:22  <Patrick`> BECAUSE you are making more money overall.
11:32:33  <TrueLight> Viper1: we call that in the real world a starting fee
11:32:40  <TrueLight> so your calculation is just wrong :)
11:32:44  <TrueLight> you start off with, say 2500
11:32:49  <TrueLight> then you get the same amount per tile :p :p :p
11:32:57  <Viper1> no,
11:33:01  <TrueLight> (where that 2500 most likely is like 100000)
11:33:08  <Patrick`> and because the second one takes 20 times longer, you make 20 times more trains and make 486 times as much money.
11:33:11  <TrueLight> euh, one 0 less :p
11:33:19  <TrueLight> anyway, it is logic that per tile is less for longer routes
11:33:40  <Patrick`> 486 times as much money out of the same cargo - that is what makes long routes worth building.
11:34:04  <TrueLight> say the per tile stays the same, then small routes are of absolute no interest, or long routes make so much money, it aint funny
11:34:12  <TrueLight> we call that balancing a game :)
11:34:26  <Viper1> Yes,
11:34:28  <Viper1> yes.
11:34:30  <Viper1> yes,
11:34:36  <TrueLight> interesting way of talking
11:34:39  <Patrick`> try talkin' dirty and playing with my balls
11:34:43  <Patrick`> (ahem.)
11:34:47  <TrueLight> Patrick`: shut up
11:35:04  <Patrick`> god, I'm sorry, did I say that out loud
11:35:06  <Viper1> I'm disagree such kind of prohibiting long range
11:35:10  <Viper1> building.
11:35:18  <Viper1> :)
11:35:26  <Viper1> such kind of balancing :)
11:35:40  <Patrick`> it does NOT PROHIBIT LONG RANGE BUILDING
11:35:52  <TrueLight> in fact it is better to hav elong routes
11:35:54  <JohnUK89> Viper1, it doesn't prohibit it, you just need trains that are fast enough to make it worthwhile, and not lose money due to operating costs
11:35:55  <TrueLight> but Patrick`, capslock
11:36:05  <Patrick`> I used shift for all that
11:36:11  <Patrick`> and I physically shouted it as I was typing
11:36:13  <TrueLight> Patrick`: then I should kick you :p
11:36:18  <Patrick`> I mean it
11:36:20  <TrueLight> keep it friendly
11:36:21  <TrueLight> and nice :)
11:36:24  <TrueLight> no need to shout :)
11:36:24  <Patrick`> I really did yell :)
11:36:27  <Nigel> hmmm
11:36:29  <Patrick`> I feel strongly about this issue.
11:36:30  <TrueLight> he means it well
11:36:35  <Viper1> TrueLight, game sayy not this factor.
11:36:36  <JohnUK89> TrueLight, he is only trying to explain a point :-P
11:36:45  <Viper1> to playes
11:37:01  <Viper1> that long way routing get less per tile pay.
11:37:03  <TrueLight> Viper1: you don't explain all details about the economy to the player, isn't fun :)
11:37:09  <Viper1> Yes.
11:37:10  <Patrick`> Viper1: per tile is a useless measurement
11:37:16  <Viper1> economy.c
11:37:20  <Viper1> all of it.
11:37:20  <Patrick`> Viper1: because it all adds up to more than this
11:37:45  <TrueLight> internally there happens a lot more then players are told about
11:37:49  <TrueLight> which is a good thing
11:37:58  <TrueLight> I once figured out how station rating worked :p
11:38:04  <TrueLight> But do you see that back ingame? No
11:38:05  <TrueLight> no need
11:38:10  <TrueLight> die-hards know it anyway
11:38:24  <JohnUK89> Viper1, before you go on about amount per tile, work it out as profit per day, and not per train either...if a route is 30 times a long, you can add 30 trains
11:38:24  <Patrick`> it is not deception if you do not rewrite the entire sourcecode as a manual explaining how the game works
11:38:30  <TrueLight> remember that this is a game, not a real-life representation
11:39:09  <TrueLight> ingame is suggested that the longer you take to move cargo, the less you get for it
11:39:11  <Viper1> Okay.
11:39:13  <TrueLight> longer tracks take longer
11:39:18  <Nigel> too true
11:39:21  <TrueLight> so in fact it does tell that
11:39:26  <TrueLight> just not in its full detail
11:39:40  <Viper1> Yes, agreed.
11:39:44  <TrueLight> I don't know if it is possible to make a 3D graph, just to explain the distance in the calculation :)
11:39:46  <Nigel> although, in a way the time in game is out of wack
11:39:54  <TrueLight> Nigel: only the time?
11:39:55  <Nigel> but hey, it's a game
11:39:57  <TrueLight> try distance :)
11:40:09  <Nigel> TrueLight, alright. s/time/distance/
11:40:10  <Viper1> To discover, how to calc income, i must to looks at economy.c
11:40:12  <TrueLight> 1 tile is about 15km for cargo movement
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11:40:26  <TrueLight> ever see a 15km long train? I mean one engine?
11:40:26  <Viper1> :)
11:40:30  <Nigel> TrueLight, thats the magic number
11:40:32  <TrueLight> Means the whole train is like 100 lm :(
11:40:34  <TrueLight> km
11:40:48  <TrueLight> ever see one of that size going 100 km/h in 2 days? :)
11:40:49  <Nigel> hmmm
11:40:50  <Viper1> I saw 6 km train )
11:40:51  <Patrick`> Viper1: no, you must *understand* economy.c
11:41:00  <TrueLight> so please do not try to scale the game to real life :)
11:41:02  <TrueLight> you will fail ;)
11:41:03  <Patrick`> not get it wrong like you have done before
11:41:06  <TrueLight> on so many levels
11:41:11  <TrueLight> (houses are HUGE)
11:41:13  <Nigel> TrueLight, i know i know
11:41:16  <JohnUK89> TrueLight, are they made of polystyrene? They're way too light for 100km trains :-D
11:41:32  <Nigel> i'm just saying it's a bit out of wack esp for innercity transit
11:41:47  <TrueLight> or when was the last time you saw a normal house using the same area of ground as a flat?
11:41:58  <Darkvater> hmm
11:42:03  <Nigel> I live in a 15km by 15km house, you need train to get round
11:42:05  <TrueLight> or road the size of a house?
11:42:10  <Nigel> :P
11:42:21  <TrueLight> and I can keep on talking about sizes all day long :)
11:42:26  <Viper1> TrueLight, does exist plan to moving to more realistic logistic?
11:42:28  <JohnUK89> TrueLight, and when was a theatre the same size as a house :P
11:42:29  <Nigel> TrueLight, it's like simcity in that respect
11:42:51  <OwenS> TrueLight: Actually, I would like to see it so that we rescale things to make them more reasonable in the new graphics, being that buildings/etc are at least 2 tiles (So they may be 15km/sq but rails are more realistic; 7.5km/sq)
11:42:57  <TrueLight> Viper1: for the economy I have plans, but for the rest, not really
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11:43:09  <webfreakz> hi
11:43:13  <TrueLight> hi webfreakz
11:43:19  <TrueLight> OwenS: it would kill the game I think
11:43:25  <OwenS> How?
11:43:42  <TrueLight> I dunno, if you want to make sizes real
11:43:42  <webfreakz> openttd_vs80.vcproj is broken
11:43:45  <TrueLight> you have to do it good
11:43:56  <TrueLight> meaning a train will take several days to go like 100 current tiles
11:43:56  <OwenS> I don't want it perfect; Just less stupid
11:44:09  <TrueLight> did you ever really notice the stupidity before I told you about it? :)
11:44:13  <TrueLight> webfreakz: please correct and send us a patch
11:44:13  <OwenS> Yep
11:44:21  <JohnUK89> Right, I'll go get food, back in a bit :)_
11:45:00  <Nigel> how big is the SVN dump atm?
11:45:05  <webfreakz> truelight: i already did check what's wrong but couldn't find anything. i will look for the changesets to see what's wrong
11:45:07  <TrueLight> which 'dump'
11:45:15  <webfreakz> whole SVN it think?
11:45:16  <TrueLight> webfreakz: most likely the TGP merge
11:45:17  <Nigel> the whole thing?
11:45:25  <TrueLight> Nigel: define 'whole thing'
11:45:32  <webfreakz> truelight: i already guessed that caused the problem :)
11:45:36  <OwenS> After invoking "svnadmin dump"?
11:45:42  <Nigel> TrueLight, as in from the base that svn looks at
11:45:44  <TrueLight> why would anyone care?
11:45:56  <Nigel> OwenS, i mean as an export from the user pov
11:46:00  <Patrick`> compiling now, I'll let you know if anything breaks
11:46:02  <OwenS> Oh
11:46:11  <TrueLight> webfreakz:
11:46:14  <TrueLight> 				>
11:46:14  <TrueLight> +			<File
11:46:14  <TrueLight> +				RelativePath=".\bmp.h"
11:46:14  <TrueLight> +				>
11:46:14  <TrueLight>  			</File>
11:46:15  <OwenS> Thats about 10mb of source, 20mb including SVN directories (Locally created)
11:46:23  <TrueLight> It is missing a </File> before bmp.h
11:46:48  <Nigel> OwenS, not too bad then
11:47:12  <TrueLight>
11:47:15  <webfreakz> truelight: thanks!
11:47:15  <TrueLight> webfreakz: let me know if that works
11:47:31  <michi_cc> TrueLight: it does
11:47:41  <Nigel> openttd.exe seems to hang after exit on Vista for no reason
11:47:44  <TrueLight> michi_cc: did you try that exact patch?
11:48:04  <michi_cc> TrueLight: actually, it doesn't, there's another unmatched tag
11:48:09  <Nigel> also, sound dies if you leave OpenTTD open when you lock then unlock your computer
11:48:19  <TrueLight> michi_cc: so don't say it does if it doesn't :)
11:48:37  <TrueLight> bmp.c
11:49:10  <TrueLight> webfreakz: try
11:49:13  <TrueLight> (reload)
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11:50:04  <Patrick`> man, I love terragenesis
11:50:06  <webfreakz> truelight: it's working again :)
11:50:13  <TrueLight> that exact patch?
11:50:14  <Patrick`> means hills and mountains don't take a billion terraforms to work
11:50:18  <webfreakz> yup
11:51:08  <Patrick`> hmm
11:51:09  *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-83-100-162-68.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
11:51:30  <Patrick`> how hard would it be to add a "very low" for town and industry density to the map generator interface?
11:51:55  <michi_cc> TrueLight: yes it does. somehow VS managed to erase that line again :( stupid ms
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11:53:30  <TrueLight> commited
11:53:53  <Patrick`> just like sea_lakes can be set to "very low"
11:55:04  <TrueLight> Patrick`: would be a 1, 2, 3 job
11:55:14  <Sacro> :o TGP - Merged - is it true?
11:55:25  <Patrick`> and would it get committed if I wrote it?
11:56:02  <webfreakz> sacro: yup
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11:56:24  <Patrick`> hmm, it seems that I would need to add a new string
11:56:58  <guru3> would you be worried when php is taking up 50% of memory?
11:57:16  <TrueLight> guru3: killall php :p
11:57:26  <guru3> it's just one instance
11:57:27  <TrueLight> Patrick`: the problem here in fact is difficulty settings
11:57:29  <guru3> parsing a log file for me ><
11:57:39  <guru3> it's down to 38%
11:57:55  <Patrick`> well, I just trivially added it to a dropdown, and ... uuh ...
11:58:13  <Patrick`> it just bumped everything up one and made "high" consume an inordinate amount of time
11:58:24  <Patrick`> like, several minutes on an amd64 3000+
11:58:55  <Patrick`> I give up
11:59:39  <Viper1> TrueLight, has plan to migrate to other programming languages, other than C?
11:59:53  <webfreakz> Viper1: why?
12:00:04  <Viper1> Just interesting.
12:00:18  <Patrick`> _opt_newgame.diff.number_industries = e->dropdown.index <-- a-hah
12:00:19  <webfreakz> imagine it's your project
12:00:38  <webfreakz> you're the 'leader' of the project
12:01:17  <webfreakz> would you say one day, when everything works fine in C, on a large scale of platforms. "Guys, let's rewrite the code from C into JAVA!"
12:01:39  <Viper1> I'm indifferent to any lang. :)
12:01:55  <TrueLight> C is the only correct language for such a project :)
12:02:00  <Patrick`> aha, _numof_industry_table
12:02:02  <Viper1> And I am not arguing to switch to any other lang.
12:02:05  <Viper1> :)
12:02:16  <TrueLight> Patrick`: I knew you would figure it out :)
12:02:37  *** lws1984 [] has quit [Quit: Breakfast!]
12:03:05  <Patrick`> TrueLight: I'm not *that* good
12:03:15  <guru3> php's using 86% of memory
12:03:19  <Patrick`> can you explain the entries in the table to me so I can also add a comment about what it does?
12:03:20  <guru3> should i be worried yet?
12:03:24  <Patrick`> or tell me where the comment is ;)
12:03:36  <TrueLight> guru3: shut up :
12:03:37  <TrueLight> p
12:03:41  <Patrick`> I see rows of numbers increasing linearly and I guessed backwards to what "very low" should be
12:03:46  *** Zavior [] has joined #openttd
12:03:49  <guru3> well that's 88% of 2GB
12:03:49  *** Zaviori [] has joined #openttd
12:03:50  <Patrick`> guessing they are parameters to the map generator or somesuch
12:03:51  *** Zaviori [] has quit []
12:03:58  <TrueLight> Patrick`: they are the 'amount' that will be generated I believe
12:04:06  *** Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
12:04:07  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
12:04:07  <Patrick`> for different industry types?
12:04:10  <TrueLight> yup
12:04:14  <Patrick`> aha
12:04:20  <Patrick`> so I should just set them all to 1
12:04:23  <TrueLight> and it scales with the map-size and stuff
12:04:37  <Patrick`> yeah, haha
12:04:56  <TrueLight> bah, that function has some weird logic
12:05:03  <Patrick`> that'd explain what went wrong when I just added another menu entry - it read row 4 (high) from assigned but irrelevant memory
12:05:03  <TrueLight> if it would just return if number_industries was 0
12:05:07  <TrueLight> would be much more logic :p
12:05:15  <TrueLight> :)
12:05:21  <Patrick`> which would average to 127
12:05:25  <Patrick`> slightly higher than "ten"
12:05:27  *** Zaviori [] has joined #openttd
12:05:43  <Patrick`> now to make sure nothing else got screwed up
12:05:45  *** Zaviori [] has quit []
12:07:43  <Viper1> TrueLight, if somebody want to help coding, whom he should ask, what to do?
12:08:05  <TrueLight> Viper1: mostly the best thing is just to do something that somebody thinks is needed to be done
12:08:06  <TrueLight> something small
12:08:08  <TrueLight> something easy
12:08:16  <Patrick`> only not what I just did because I just did it.
12:08:21  <TrueLight> if that somebody is totally out of ideas, he can always ask me, I have tons of things :p
12:09:01  <Patrick`> cool, it responds to ctrl-c in the console correctly
12:09:34  * Sacro wonders if you could port OpenTTD to QT 4.x
12:09:37  <Viper1> ok.
12:10:13  <Sacro> Viper1: #newsignals is always after coders who are willing to dig around and fiddle with the code
12:10:15  <JohnUK89> Back :)
12:10:19  <Sacro> oh noes...
12:10:23  <Patrick`> aha, the 12 types are the general types of the industry
12:10:30  <JohnUK89> Oh noes...not Sacro
12:10:30  <Patrick`> whatever they ae
12:11:09  *** Zavior^ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:11:39  <TrueLight> Sacro: go for it :)
12:11:51  <TrueLight> Sacro: what is #newsignals? :)
12:11:55  <Patrick`> is there a header that says what those types are?
12:12:05  <Patrick`> I'm guessing the first one is banks because it's always zero initially
12:12:13  <TrueLight> Patrick`: industry.h
12:12:21  <Sacro> TrueLight: its a channel for people interested in a new signalling system for OpenTTD, but at the moment, KUDr seems to be gone
12:12:30  <Patrick`> TrueLight: ta
12:12:32  <TrueLight> hmm, that is not the list you was hoping for :)
12:12:45  <Patrick`> all I need is &wheretolook
12:13:45  <JohnUK89> I need to learn
12:14:50  <Sacro> i need to learn YAPF
12:15:21  <TrueLight> Patrick`: table/build_industry.h
12:15:24  <TrueLight> totally unreadable
12:15:27  <TrueLight> but that is where they are listed
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12:15:34  <Patrick`> well, I'll see about that
12:16:03  <TrueLight> kind of messy :p
12:16:05  <Patrick`> just after I make sure I've not cocked up anywhere else by adding an extra row to number_industries
12:16:22  <TrueLight> just make sure it still follows logic
12:16:22  <Patrick`> it's an int and it's only ever used to index that table so I guess not ...
12:16:30  <TrueLight> so no: low, medium, high, very low :p
12:16:40  <Patrick`> nope, I'm not that silly
12:16:55  *** Guest56 [] has joined #openttd
12:17:05  <Patrick`> is there a reason why the dropdowns for low/medium/high use different types of strings for each different thing?
12:17:21  *** netgert [] has quit []
12:17:41  <TrueLight> yeah, translators on one side, and the possibility the naming changes for one
12:17:47  <TrueLight> you don't want that the others change immediatly
12:18:30  <Patrick`> so I should add a new string
12:18:52  <Patrick`> and make it default to the other one
12:19:12  <TrueLight> also make sure to change the patch settings so it can store the next max value on the disk
12:19:21  <TrueLight> also make sure the difficulty settings can take that value
12:19:41  <Patrick`> I see what you mean about build_industry
12:19:56  <Patrick`> I give up, they can just all stay at 1
12:20:01  <TrueLight> hehe :p
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12:21:04  <TrueLight> bah, I made DorpsGek spam :( I did something really wrong :p Hahahaha :)
12:21:38  <webfreakz> dorpsgek?
12:21:43  * webfreakz slaps dorpsgek
12:21:56  <JohnUK89> DorpsGek is a bot
12:22:03  <JohnUK89> !seen webfreakz
12:22:04  <DorpsGek> JohnUK89, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel.
12:22:48  <TrueLight> foreach in TCL splits on spaces too
12:22:49  <TrueLight> bah :
12:22:49  <TrueLight> p
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12:25:15  *** Guest56 is now known as Gonozal_VIII
12:26:54  <TrueLight> !openttd log
12:26:56  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: r5950 | truelight | 2006-08-19 12:01:04 +0000 (Sat, 19 Aug 2006) | 2 lines
12:26:58  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: -Fix: don't show Vital Windows EVER if you go to GM_MENU (tnx Darkvater)
12:27:03  <TrueLight> Ugly :p But at least it works :)
12:27:16  <JohnUK89> TrueLight, it's !logs :)
12:27:31  <TrueLight> !openttd log 5940
12:27:31  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: r5940 | truelight | 2006-08-18 22:40:08 +0000 (Fri, 18 Aug 2006) | 2 lines
12:27:33  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: [TGP] -Cleanup: changed 3 defines into 1 static inline (tnx Darkvater)
12:27:37  <JohnUK89> Oh
12:27:38  <JohnUK89> SVN :P
12:27:54  <webfreakz> !openttd log 5949
12:27:55  <DorpsGek> webfreakz: r5949 | truelight | 2006-08-19 11:50:34 +0000 (Sat, 19 Aug 2006) | 2 lines
12:27:57  <DorpsGek> webfreakz: -Fix: vs80 project file was broken (tnx webfreakz)
12:28:02  <webfreakz> w00t
12:28:13  * JohnUK89 slaps webfreakz
12:28:14  <JohnUK89> :P
12:28:31  <OwenS> !openttd log 5950
12:28:32  * webfreakz searches for his baseball bat...
12:28:36  <webfreakz> ^^
12:28:37  <TrueLight> I disabled it
12:28:41  <OwenS> :(
12:28:47  <webfreakz> grmbl
12:28:49  * JohnUK89 gets his shotgun out
12:28:53  <OwenS> I was gonna have it annoy the other Owen :P
12:29:34  <TrueLight> !stats
12:29:35  <DorpsGek> TrueLight:
12:29:53  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:31:12  <TrueLight> okay, it is working again, but it no longer shows more than 6 lines :p
12:31:47  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:33:38  <TrueLight> svn: subversion/libsvn_subr/path.c:114: svn_path_join: Assertion `is_canonical (base, blen)' failed.
12:33:38  <TrueLight> I have SVN asserting :) :)
12:35:00  <TrueLight> svn status svn://bla
12:35:00  <TrueLight> hehe
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12:37:03  <TrueLight> haha
12:37:21  <JohnUK89> lmao
12:38:48  <izhirahider> svn status shows me ? core.12447 and ? core.11739 :)
12:38:55  <TrueLight> hahaha :)
12:39:06  <TrueLight> hmm.. I did something wrong, and I dunno what :p
12:39:06  <TrueLight> lol
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12:40:46  <TrueLight> argh, stupid TCL
12:40:48  <TrueLight> bad error reporting
12:40:49  <TrueLight> really bad
12:41:13  <izhirahider> whoha, a whole new truckload of stuff to translate...
12:44:33  <Kjetil> yeah. TCL sucks.. so don't use it
12:44:57  *** DorpsGek [] has joined #openttd
12:45:08  <TrueLight> !openttd svn
12:45:25  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: SVN: svn:// ; WebSVN:
12:45:56  <Patrick`> ok, how is the string in the difficulty window determined?
12:45:56  <TrueLight> TCL also parses things in comments....
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12:46:09  <Patrick`> I can save/load it all correctly but it's displaying them off-by-one
12:46:26  <Patrick`> and I (grep) can't find where those strings are referenced from
12:46:54  <Patrick`> it displays "none, low, medium, high, small squiggly glyph for missing setting" but sets it correctly
12:47:02  *** Trenskow [~outlet@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:49:57  *** Mucht|zZz is now known as Mucht
12:49:59  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... who made the diagonal crossing patch?
12:50:39  <Maedhros> Eddi|zuHause: me
12:51:00  <Eddi|zuHause>
12:51:32  <TrueLight> you tell us
12:51:37  <Patrick`> no collision detection on diagonals?
12:51:52  <TrueLight> now that is a small truck
12:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll tell: it's driving on right (correct), but the gates are on the left now...
12:52:56  <Nigel> there is no signals on the track coming from depot?
12:53:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be correct before the patch
12:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not 100% sure that caused it...
12:53:29  <Nigel> wait, is that barrier arms?
12:53:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:53:39  <Maedhros> hmm. i didn't think the patch changed the drawing of the straight crossings
12:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it might be some weird interaction
12:53:54  <Maedhros> are you sure the truck grf hasn't changed the crossing graphics?
12:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be correct...
12:54:10  <Eddi|zuHause> what exact revision was the patch?
12:54:31  <Maedhros> 5911
12:57:12  <Patrick`> gah
12:57:20  <Patrick`> help help I'm being repressed
12:57:33  <__bebe__> i whant to send this message to the openttd devel team:
12:57:52  <webfreakz> 'whant' ??
12:58:16  <Patrick`> wow, that's annoying
12:58:22  <Patrick`> but sweet
12:58:25  <__bebe__> :P
12:58:25  <webfreakz> yeah
12:58:28  <webfreakz> :)
12:58:48  <Eddi|zuHause> grr... how do i go back to a specific revision on the command line?
12:58:54  <Patrick`> svn up -r
12:59:01  <Patrick`> even if "up" is going down
12:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not change any files
12:59:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried that
12:59:20  <Patrick`> svn revert ?
12:59:35  <Nigel> Eddi|zuHause, do a svn export -r in another folder
12:59:37  <Nigel> :P
12:59:38  <Patrick`> svn up ought to go to any specificed revision
12:59:54  <Patrick`> so yeah, anyone any ideas about my difficulty settings difficulty?
12:59:57  *** egladil [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
13:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> revert is only for local changes
13:00:31  <Patrick`> make sure svn up -r <X> doesn't work
13:00:38  *** egladil [] has joined #openttd
13:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> johannes@johannes-i:~/filme/spiele/OpenTTD2> svn up -r5910
13:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Revision 5910.
13:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> johannes@johannes-i:~/filme/spiele/OpenTTD2> make
13:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> make: Für das Ziel »all« ist nichts zu tun.
13:01:55  <TrueLight> !openttd files 5946
13:01:56  <DorpsGek> TrueLight:  trunk/functions.h trunk/video/cocoa_v.m trunk/video/sdl_v.c trunk/video/win32_v.c trunk/video/dedicated_v.c trunk/lang/english.txt trunk/heightmap.c trunk/heightmap.h trunk/macros.h trunk/tgp.c trunk/tgp.h trunk/misc.c trunk/os2.c trunk/town_cmd.c trunk/openttd_vs80.vcproj trunk/main_gui.c trunk/Makefile trunk/openttd.vcproj trunk/settings.c trunk/fios.c trunk/fios.h trunk/os/linux/openttd.spec trunk/os/macosx/splash.c trunk/console_cmds.c trun
13:01:59  <TrueLight> Ugly? :p
13:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, very ;)
13:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> !openttd files 5911
13:02:40  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause:  trunk/rail.h
13:02:52  *** WolfAngel [] has quit [Quit: YES I'M SURE!]
13:03:10  <Patrick`> aha
13:03:16  <Patrick`> are enums guaranteed to be sequential?
13:03:25  <TrueLight> Patrick`: normally, yes :p
13:03:32  <Patrick`> so we rely on it ..
13:03:43  <Patrick`> it's taking the enum of the min setting, then incrementing that to get the rest
13:03:57  <Patrick`> so I do need to add a new string since no other sequence goes "off, v.low, low ..."
13:04:28  *** MeusH [] has joined #openttd
13:04:34  <MeusH> hi
13:04:36  <MeusH> omg
13:04:44  <MeusH> I didn't have internet since yesterday evening
13:04:47  <JohnUK89> MeusH, ello
13:04:55  <MeusH> I thought I would die :S
13:05:10  <Bjarni> !seen lolman
13:05:10  <DorpsGek> Bjarni, I found 8 matches to your query. These are the 5 most recent ones: JohnUK89, lolman, john_, lolman_, back. JohnUK89 (~john@ was last seen joining #openttd 2 hours 18 minutes ago (19.08. 10:46). JohnUK89 is still there.
13:05:22  <JohnUK89> ARGH!
13:05:30  <Bjarni> once again lolman is flying false colours
13:05:50  <JohnUK89> Bjarni: not false colours, I'm identified to nickserv :)
13:05:56  <Patrick`> gah, makefile
13:06:02  <Patrick`> how do I rebuild a particular language?
13:06:02  <MeusH> a nickserv on OFTC?
13:06:09  <MeusH> Patrick`, what do you mean?
13:06:10  <JohnUK89> MeusH, yep
13:06:15  <Patrick`> or all of them
13:06:21  <Patrick`> I get lang out of date
13:06:36  <Patrick`> like, regenerate the .lng files
13:06:40  <Bjarni> Patrick`: well, if you want to remake one and only one lng file, then do it manually
13:06:53  <Patrick`> and all of them>
13:06:57  <Patrick`> I'm not fussed about speed
13:07:09  <Patrick`> I just don't wantto do a make clean each time and throw away my binary
13:07:18  *** Viper1 [] has joined #openttd
13:07:24  <Bjarni> no need to use make clean
13:07:48  <Bjarni> make will update the lng files and if nothing else changed, the binary will still be there and is not recompiled
13:08:30  <Bjarni> if you added/removed strings in english.txt, a recompile is needed to make the lng files compatible with the binary
13:08:49  <Bjarni> they need to agree on the number and types of strings
13:08:57  *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AFK
13:09:10  <Patrick`> ok, last question ... is there a facility for cloning one string to another in all lang files?
13:09:15  <Patrick`> or will I need to whip up a script for it
13:09:32  <Patrick`> (since they are the same string, just gui needing to add mutter mutter)
13:09:42  <Bjarni> easiest solution: if they are identically in all languages, then don't care about it
13:09:59  <Patrick`> I have to, since settings_gui apparently displays them in sequence
13:10:03  <Patrick`> and this is a new sequence
13:10:21  <Bjarni> it will use the English string if it is missing in a translation
13:10:27  <Patrick`> oh, right
13:10:35  <Bjarni> and you will not overburden the translators with a string like that ;)
13:11:03  <Patrick`> ok, looks like my "very low" industry density patch is done :D
13:11:06  *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-83-100-162-68.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:11:19  <Bjarni> we need to use the English string in order not to render a lng file unusable due to a single missing string
13:12:05  <Patrick`> uuh ... one last thing
13:12:29  <Patrick`> is strings.h auto-generated from english.txt ?
13:12:36  <Bjarni> yes
13:12:45  <Patrick`> awesome
13:12:58  <Bjarni> that's why you need to use the makefile to ensure that strings.h is up to date
13:13:37  * Bjarni notes that Patrick` got an answer to the last thing, so he is out of questions. No need to answer anything from him anymore
13:13:43  * Bjarni sets Patrick` to ignore
13:13:46  <Patrick`> har har.
13:13:52  <Bjarni> :P
13:14:31  <Bjarni> well, I read what you wrote. How can that be wrong?
13:14:34  <Bjarni> :)
13:14:40  <Patrick`> ok, now what's the best thing to do with this patch ... forum, flyspray, here, all 3?
13:15:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes ;)
13:15:17  <Bjarni> yeah, totally
13:15:20  <Bjarni> what Eddi|zuHause said
13:15:28  <Patrick`> later though, it's gone wrong
13:16:19  *** Dred_furst` [] has joined #openttd
13:18:14  <Patrick`> there's a minor graphical overlap that will need the entire world generation panel widget layout to change slightly)
13:19:04  <Bjarni> hehe
13:19:10  <Bjarni> good luck
13:19:36  <Bjarni> that window is a hack because it got 34 widgets in a max 32 widget/window system
13:19:45  <Bjarni> it will not be easy to modify it
13:19:50  <Darkvater> Bjarni: there is some bug with autoreplace still, I sent you a link
13:19:53  <Patrick`> I see, it's not movable
13:19:53  <Darkvater> did you look at it?
13:20:01  <Bjarni> hmm
13:20:04  <TrueLight> Bjarni: he ment resize
13:20:05  <Bjarni> what bugs?
13:20:12  <TrueLight> not _that_ hard :p
13:20:14  <Darkvater> ..
13:20:17  <Patrick`> all I have to do is jimmy left all of the aligned widgets after the type:
13:20:33  <Bjarni> ahh, like that
13:20:37  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:20:44  <Darkvater>
13:21:00  <Darkvater> I also had some lookie at it and didn't work for me either at times
13:21:02  <Darkvater> donnu why
13:21:31  <Bjarni> I need info on when it fails, because it works for me each time
13:24:28  <Patrick`> my god that's awful
13:24:32  <Patrick`> such a hack
13:24:45  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:25:21  <Patrick`> ok, it doesn't matter that much if half a letter overlaps a dropdown selection chooser thing
13:27:12  <Patrick`>
13:27:16  <Patrick`> also on fspra
13:28:51  <TrueLight> nice work :)
13:29:38  <TrueLight> now a very high :p Haha :)
13:29:40  <TrueLight> kidding :)
13:30:36  <Patrick`> it won't break backwards compat but your saved density will shimmy down by one
13:30:47  <Patrick`> nothing I can do about that
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13:31:40  <TrueLight> bah, TCL sucks
13:32:49  <Patrick`> tcl the scripting lang?
13:32:50  <Patrick`> Pfft
13:32:51  <TrueLight> yes
13:32:54  <Patrick`> python 4 eva!
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13:37:26  <JohnUK89> grrrr why does Ubuntu get updates so often? I only did a 150 meg update 4 days back...and theres another 200meg waiting for me now :S
13:37:37  <Patrick`> yeah, curse them for making you secure
13:38:26  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, it's not that, it's just that I'm on GPRS for the next 2 or 3 weeks
13:38:43  <JohnUK89> Soon as I move I'll be on DSL, so it won't be an issue
13:39:39  <JohnUK89> It's rather annoying when the connection drops half way through an update
13:42:13  <Patrick`> yeah, that pesky "resume" function
13:42:28  *** Nigel [~Nigel@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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13:43:14  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, well I have to reconnect, then resume it...and it's especially annoying when it's half way through the night when it drops
13:43:30  <Patrick`> aye, I guess so
13:43:33  <Patrick`> no autoresume
13:44:22  <JohnUK89> Well it'll be solved in a few weeks
13:44:45  <Eddi|zuHause> get a proxy that cloaks such connection losses
13:45:26  <JohnUK89> Eddi|zuHause, and how do you propose I use such proxy when I am already going through one
13:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause> get one proxy to use the other?
13:46:28  <JohnUK89> The proxy is T-Mobile
13:46:30  <JohnUK89> Lol
13:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> GPRS doesn't use PPP?
13:47:45  <JohnUK89> Dunno, actually
13:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> usually, with Modem/ISDN you establish a PPP connection to your provider
13:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> which then redirects your acesses to the internet, usually not via a proxy
13:50:18  <JohnUK89> Well this connects to T-Mobiles proxy, which controls the traffic
13:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't imagine why GPRS connections should be different
13:50:39  <Patrick`> proxy to a shellhost
13:50:48  <Patrick`> GPRS is supposed to not drop at all
13:51:07  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, well the fact it does is my phone's fault
13:52:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well... i could imagine that T-Mobile does 24h disconnects, like T-Online
13:52:26  <JohnUK89> Eddi|zuHause, I've never had it last beyond 14 hours
13:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> which reminds me... how do i set up a cron job doing "ifdown dsl0 && ifup dsl0"
13:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
13:54:48  <Eddi|zuHause> at, say... 7AM
13:55:00  <JohnUK89> That's an idea...can someone help me with something? I want it so every few minutes it checks whether my connection is alive or not...and if it isn't it restarts it
13:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> ping?
13:55:18  <Patrick`> ping google.
13:55:40  <JohnUK89> But the restarting the connection if it's dead?
13:56:01  <Eddi|zuHause> see my line above... adjust for your interface
13:56:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that is, if you have set up your OS properly ;)
13:56:39  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause: the cron job?
13:56:47  <Patrick`> just run crontab -e as the user you want to do it as
13:57:35  <JohnUK89> would be easier for me to just tell it restart the connection every 5 minutes...if it's already there it won't bother
13:58:45  <JohnUK89> Well...I'll know if it does bother in 2 minutes
13:59:35  *** DorpsGek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:59:52  <TrueLight> *oops*
14:00:00  *** DorpsGek [] has joined #openttd
14:00:06  <JohnUK89> YES! :P
14:00:15  *** Viper1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:01:23  <JohnUK89> tell it to restart an update...
14:01:52  <JohnUK89> Damn...needs a password :S
14:02:04  <JohnUK89> pass
14:02:20  <JohnUK89> but I can't have it automatically put in...
14:02:24  *** TinoM| [] has joined #openttd
14:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> 0 7 * * * ifdown dsl0 && ifup dsl0 <- would that line do what i want?
14:05:01  <Patrick`> that would do it at 7am
14:05:03  <Patrick`> i think
14:05:06  <Patrick`> I'm a little rusty
14:05:32  <Patrick`> if you wanted every n minutes do */n * * * * command
14:05:33  <Eddi|zuHause> we'll see tomorrow :)
14:06:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well... i just want the 24h disconnect on my terms, and not on T-Offlines terms :)
14:06:30  <Patrick`> #define TWO 0?5:2
14:06:33  <Patrick`> int two = TWO
14:06:37  <Patrick`> int five = TWO + TWO
14:06:43  <Patrick`> :D:D:D
14:06:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "old" :p
14:07:02  *** netgert [] has joined #openttd
14:07:05  <Patrick`> it's new to me
14:07:37  <Eddi|zuHause> someone mentioned it yesterday
14:08:18  *** TinoM| [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:08:22  <webfreakz> !seen rubidium
14:08:23  <DorpsGek> webfreakz, if you can't see rubidium here right now, you probably need new glasses. ^_^
14:08:32  <webfreakz> grmbl
14:08:40  *** TinoM [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:10:07  * JohnUK89 gets the shotgun out
14:10:15  <SpComb> Logs:
14:10:15  <TrueLight> !logs
14:10:46  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueLight: can you teach the bot to tell "<nick> is here, but was idle <time>."?
14:10:54  <TrueLight> Eddi|zuHause: possible, but not today
14:11:17  *** DorpsGek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:11:20  <TrueLight> bah
14:11:34  <TrueLight> stupid
14:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> what does "DorpsGek" mean anyway?
14:11:50  *** DorpsGek [] has joined #openttd
14:12:28  <TrueLight> TownIdiot
14:12:29  <TrueLight> TownFool
14:12:32  <TrueLight> something like that
14:12:37  *** TinoM [] has joined #openttd
14:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ah... "Dorftrottel" ;)
14:13:25  *** Trenskow [~outlet@] has quit [Quit: Read error: Connection reset by sortepeer]
14:13:33  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause: that's what a whois is for
14:13:52  <TrueLight> indeed
14:14:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i know whois does that ;)
14:14:07  <SpComb> TrueLight: I'm here now
14:14:26  <MeusH> !seen rubidiu*
14:14:26  <DorpsGek> MeusH, I found 2 matches to your query: Rubidium, Rubidium_. Rubidium ( was last seen rejoining #openttd.tgp from a netsplit 2 days 23 hours 6 minutes ago (16.08. 15:07) Rubidium is still there.
14:14:29  *** Ammler [] has joined #openttd
14:14:30  <MeusH> <Eddi|zuHause> TrueLight: can you teach the bot to tell "<nick> is here, but was idle <time>."?
14:14:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but the message it tells now gets annoing after the 400th time
14:14:31  <MeusH> see?
14:15:03  <TrueLight> what is there to see...
14:15:06  <TrueLight> still no idle time
14:15:33  *** Ammler [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:16:16  *** jonty-comp [] has joined #openttd
14:17:30  <TrueLight> !openttd commit
14:17:30  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: truelight * r5950 /trunk/genworld.c:
14:17:32  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: -Fix: don't show Vital Windows EVER if you go to GM_MENU (tnx Darkvater)
14:17:36  <TrueLight> :)
14:17:50  <TrueLight> !openttd commit
14:17:52  <TrueLight> Even better
14:17:52  <DorpsGek> truelight * r5950 /trunk/genworld.c:
14:17:54  <DorpsGek> -Fix: don't show Vital Windows EVER if you go to GM_MENU (tnx Darkvater)
14:18:20  <TrueLight> !openttd commit 5946
14:18:21  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5946 /trunk/ (Makefile bmp.c bmp.h clear_cmd.c command.c console_cmds.c engine.c fios.c fios.h functions.h genworld.c genworld.h genworld_gui.c gfx.c gui.h heightmap.c heightmap.h industry_cmd.c intro_gui.c landscape.c lang/english.txt macros.h main_gui.c misc.c misc_gui.c network_gui.c network_server.c openttd.c openttd.h openttd.vcproj openttd_vs80.vcproj os/linux/openttd.spec os/macosx/splash.c os2.c saveload.c saveload.h screens
14:18:23  <DorpsGek> -Add: merged the TGP branch to mainline. TGP adds:
14:18:24  <TrueLight> lol :)
14:18:25  <DorpsGek>   - New optional landscape generator (TerraGenesis Perlin)
14:18:27  <DorpsGek>   - Load heightmaps (either BMP or PNG)
14:18:29  <DorpsGek>   - Progress dialog while generating worlds (no longer a 'hanging' screen)
14:18:31  <DorpsGek>   - New dialogs for NewGame, Create Scenario and Play Heightmap
14:18:33  <TrueLight> The bot 'talks' too slow :(
14:18:34  <DorpsGek> (...) (truncated)
14:18:45  <Bjarni> better slow than not
14:18:48  <Bjarni> at all
14:19:22  *** scia [] has joined #openttd
14:19:26  <TrueLight> things you want to add / remove from the commit?
14:19:37  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... maybe for more than 3 files, you should not list them...
14:19:44  <TrueLight> Eddi|zuHause: working on that yes
14:20:32  *** __bebe__ [ssssss@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:20:34  <Bjarni> TrueLight: how about ability to get all the files (like now) and full log
14:20:43  <Bjarni> with like !openttd commit 5946 full
14:20:49  <TrueLight> Bjarni: and spam this channel?
14:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> PM?
14:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> or /notice?
14:21:08  <TrueLight> that is an option yes
14:21:14  <TrueLight> but baby steps :)
14:21:17  <TrueLight> remember the request
14:21:22  <TrueLight> and tell me again when I say I am done with this :)
14:22:12  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
14:22:15  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
14:22:42  <MeusH> hello glx
14:22:49  <glx> hello
14:23:02  <TrueLight> Lol! CIA tells me there are 58 files, I count 57
14:23:20  <MeusH> TrueLight,, how about automaticly triggering the bot by svn server (when it gets commit command)?
14:23:47  <TrueLight> MeusH: really?! What an amazing idea!!!!
14:23:50  <TrueLight> wow, let me write that down
14:23:52  <MeusH> ...
14:23:53  <hylje> lol
14:24:08  *** scia [] has quit []
14:24:27  <TrueLight> sorry, but that really is a big DAH! :)
14:25:10  <TrueLight> CIA really counts files wrong it seems
14:25:26  <TrueLight> not always
14:25:27  <TrueLight> weird
14:25:28  <TrueLight> what ever
14:25:35  <hylje> TrueLight: are you coding that svn bot then?
14:25:41  <TrueLight> hylje: yes
14:25:56  <hylje> i could have use for a simple such bot
14:26:27  <TrueLight> I just need to count dirs now
14:26:34  <TrueLight> which is pretty tricky I think
14:26:59  <hylje> regexpes will do, i assume you work with paths
14:27:06  <TrueLight> I have a list of files
14:27:11  <TrueLight> now I need to count the dirs of that
14:28:17  <hylje> recursively?
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14:28:43  <TrueLight> hmm
14:28:45  <TrueLight> they are sorted
14:28:47  <TrueLight> so it is easy :)
14:29:28  <hylje> nice
14:30:00  <TrueLight> but okay, for what you need a bot like this?
14:30:10  <hylje> for a project of mine
14:30:17  <hylje> its not really public yet
14:30:57  <TrueLight> :) I can make DorpsGek join there and work for you
14:30:59  <TrueLight> just not now
14:31:01  <TrueLight> but soon it will
14:31:06  *** Tobin [] has quit [Quit: Tobin]
14:31:10  <MeusH> bye
14:31:20  *** DorpsGek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:31:25  <hylje> were on a private irc network, ive looked at cia and rolling my own
14:31:29  *** Trenskow [~outlet@] has joined #openttd
14:31:44  <hylje> cia is a bitt of a hassle to set up
14:31:59  <TrueLight> Not really, but CIA has a really slow response time, and you can't configure it yourself
14:33:31  <TrueLight> bah, forgot a single }
14:33:31  <hylje> and im not too good with doing multitasking (ie. bots) either :/
14:33:37  <TrueLight> I should test it before rehashing the bot :p
14:33:43  *** DorpsGek [] has joined #openttd
14:33:48  *** silent [~pwr@] has joined #openttd
14:33:49  <Bjarni> wb DorpsGek
14:33:51  <TrueLight> but if you like I can make DorpsGek join that network
14:33:58  <hylje> forgetting a } is fun when theres 10k lines of code
14:34:00  <Bjarni> TrueLight: you should make it reply to that :)
14:34:21  <ln->
14:34:29  <TrueLight> !openttd files 5946
14:34:31  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: /trunk/ (57 files in 56 dirs)
14:34:31  <TrueLight> lol at data :p
14:34:40  <glx> hehe
14:34:54  <hylje> that is fine but i feel more comfortable running said code myself
14:35:23  <TrueLight> Lol ln-, I hope that isn't for real :)
14:35:58  <hylje> and sure id contribute fixes and fun stuff back to you if i a) can make sense of it b) have ideas
14:36:05  <Bjarni> lol @ ln-
14:36:11  <TrueLight> oh, that you ment with CIA
14:36:17  <TrueLight> you don't want to launch your own CIA bot no :p
14:36:30  *** gotiniens [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:36:38  <stillunknown> ln-: did you get that e-mail?
14:36:39  <hylje> :p
14:36:44  *** Trenskow [~outlet@] has quit [Quit: Read error: Connection reset by sortepeer]
14:36:47  *** MeusH [] has quit [Quit: bye - quit]
14:36:54  <hylje> i did study cia a bit then
14:37:03  <hylje> it was a bit large
14:37:48  <hylje> and yes, overkill for a svn announcer for a single channel/svn
14:38:17  *** TinoM| [] has joined #openttd
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14:40:36  <TrueLight> hylje: the downside of this bot is, it is TCL :(
14:40:39  <TrueLight> (eggdrop)
14:40:40  <ln-> stillunknown: silence, or i'll sue you too.
14:40:42  *** StarLite [] has joined #openttd
14:41:46  <hylje> its fine
14:42:05  <hylje> i might arse myself to recreate its essence in another language
14:42:55  *** lws1984 [] has joined #openttd
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14:43:12  <TrueLight> !openttd files 5946
14:43:13  <DorpsGek> TrueLight: /trunk/ (57 files in 5 dirs)
14:43:14  <TrueLight> Finally :)
14:43:16  <XeryusTC> ln-: lol, did you receive that email?
14:43:46  *** grimrc1 [] has joined #openttd
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14:45:13  <grimrc1> hi all; compiling openttd on Gentoo is stopping with thread.c:(.text+0x1c): undefined reference to `pthread_join' ... and similarly for pthread_create; is this because I compiled glibc with the USE flag 'nptlonly'?
14:45:52  *** TinoM [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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14:45:57  <hylje> you ricer
14:45:59  <hylje> :p
14:46:08  <grimrc1> hehe
14:46:14  *** Tron [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:46:29  <TrueLight> grimrc1: so don't do that
14:46:32  <TrueLight> okay, now we solved that... :p
14:46:42  <TrueLight> grimrc1: OpenTTD currently _needs_ pthreads
14:46:50  <TrueLight> there should be a switch to make it not depend on it
14:47:05  <Maedhros> grimrc1: i can't see why that would be a problem, unless you don't have nptl enabled...
14:47:19  <TrueLight> Maedhros: did you ever read what he wrote?
14:47:21  <grimrc1> just wondering if that *is* the reason; coz it'd take ages to recompile glibc; I'm not going to bother; presumably openttd is making a wrong assumption about threading and should use nptl anyway?  obviously, I don't know an awful lot about threading
14:47:35  <Maedhros> TrueLight: yes. he has nptlonly, which is a seperate USE flag to nptl
14:47:45  <grimrc1> TrueLight: that's exactly what I wanted to know thanks!
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14:47:56  <TrueLight> Maedhros: okay, sorry, I read him wrong :p
14:48:27  <grimrc1> I did Google and stuff but I didn't find anyone else with the same error; not many people use nptlonly I suppose
14:48:34  <TrueLight> grimrc1: you can get a simple patch that make it not need pthreads
14:48:56  <Maedhros> grimrc1: i use ntplonly, but i've never seen any compilation failing to find pthreads :-/
14:49:12  <grimrc1> Maedhros: including openttd 0.4.8?
14:49:22  <ln-> XeryusTC: no, it's a random irc link.
14:49:32  <Maedhros> hmm, i've only tried openttd svn
14:49:36  <grimrc1> TrueLight: when you say 'get' a sumple patch, do you mean somebody's already done it?
14:49:45  <TrueLight> grimrc1: nah, but I can do it for you in seconds
14:49:52  <TrueLight> but first... I wonder about something
14:50:03  <TrueLight> nptl shouldn't mean you don't have pthread, right? (not my field :p)
14:50:11  <grimrc1> TrueLight: oh no don't bother yourself honestly; I'm sure it'll be sorted out in good time; I'll just wait for the next release
14:50:24  *** mikk36 [] has joined #openttd
14:50:43  <grimrc1> TrueLight: I used USE="nptl nptlonly" so as far as I understand it, I don't have pthreads
14:51:09  <TrueLight> I am trying to find info about nptl... :s
14:51:12  <Maedhros> grimrc1: you do, but you have nptl (Native Posix Threading Library) instead of Linuxthreads
14:51:35  <TrueLight> Maedhros: but does he has -lpthread?
14:51:43  *** JohnUK89 [~john@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:51:55  <Maedhros> TrueLight: he really should - they're both different implementations of pthreads
14:52:03  <TrueLight> so, in that case
14:52:08  <TrueLight> grimrc1: you run via ebuilds, or manual?
14:52:11  <grimrc1> thanks for confirming what I thought though; when I'm ricing I have to get to the bottom of compiler errors or it causes a lot of hurt later
14:52:18  <Patrick`> grimrc1: yes, aren't use flags wonderful
14:52:24  <guru3> time to get 0.4.8 working on my 770
14:52:27  <grimrc1> TrueLight: I emerged 0.4.8; the latest
14:52:32  <Patrick`> because everyone knows everything they'll always install in the future all the time
14:52:36  <Maedhros> grimrc1: just a thought - are you using the --as-needed LDFLAG?
14:52:53  <TrueLight> grimrc1: that makes it a bit harder... :p
14:53:05  <grimrc1> Maedhros: yep I'm using as-neeeded
14:53:19  <Maedhros> aha. try removing it - i bet it works this time ;)
14:53:20  *** TinoM| [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:53:21  <grimrc1> shall I test recompiling without it?
14:53:27  <TrueLight> what is --as-needed?
14:53:46  <grimrc1> I will try for you and report back
14:53:50  <Maedhros> it tries to only link the libraries that are actually needed, rather than everything specified on the linker line
14:54:01  <TrueLight> lol
14:54:23  <Maedhros> unfortunately, it has some quirks which mean that it doesn't actually realise what it needs
14:54:50  <grimrc1> if any of you guys rice at all, check out the CFLAGS matrix on Gentoo TIPS wiki; contribute too if you find flags that break
14:54:50  <TrueLight> works fine here with --as-needed :)
14:55:36  <TrueLight> grimrc1: what is your binutils version?
14:55:58  <grimrc1> 2.17
14:56:07  <TrueLight> more detail?
14:56:19  <grimrc1> I don't know how to get more detail
14:56:21  <grimrc1> heh
14:56:48  <grimrc1> GNU ld version 2.17
14:57:10  <TrueLight> lol, I use 2.16.1 :)
14:57:21  <grimrc1> use Gentoo TrueLight?
14:57:23  <TrueLight> yeah
14:57:26  <TrueLight> 64bit
14:57:54  <grimrc1> binutils-config - see if you installed 2.17 and it's not being used?
14:58:11  <TrueLight> 64bit doesn't have any stable 2.17 :)
14:58:28  <TrueLight>
14:58:35  <grimrc1> oh makes sense
14:58:44  <TrueLight> in fact, even on x86 it isn't even stable
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14:59:28  <TrueLight> but okay, is broken with --as-needed
14:59:32  <TrueLight> that is why I asked :)
14:59:50  <TrueLight> !openttd commit 5746
14:59:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5746 /branches/TGP/openttd.c:
14:59:53  <DorpsGek> [TGP] -Fix: make sure _patches is filled with _patches_newgame if using -g from command-line (tnx for spotting Rubidium)
15:00:04  <TrueLight> !openttd commit
15:00:05  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5950 /trunk/genworld.c:
15:00:07  <DorpsGek> -Fix: don't show Vital Windows EVER if you go to GM_MENU (tnx Darkvater)
15:00:07  <TrueLight> yeah, it works :)
15:00:12  <TrueLight> Darkvater: happy?
15:00:18  <Darkvater> >)]
15:00:26  <TrueLight> it isn't triggered yet automaticly
15:00:28  <TrueLight> that is next :)
15:00:48  <grimrc1> out of interest, does anyone know if the oil rig bug was fixed?  sometimes an oil rig would not have a station name (so you couldn't dock there), but it did have the industry part; it didn't affect all rigs on the map either
15:01:47  <grimrc1> it does compile without --as-needed
15:01:57  <Maedhros> :)
15:02:02  <TrueLight> nice catch Maedhros :)
15:02:10  <grimrc1> I'll have to update CFLAGS matrix; thanks a lot for that tip
15:02:30  <TrueLight> now I wonder who's falt it is
15:02:59  <Maedhros> TrueLight: there's a document about fixing as-needed failures here, if it helps:
15:03:19  <TrueLight> Maedhros: I had that document open already yes :p
15:03:23  <grimrc1> helps me
15:03:26  <TrueLight> so I first still wonder what version grimrc1 uses
15:03:32  <Maedhros> ah, fair enough :)
15:03:33  <TrueLight> grimrc1: emerge --search binutils
15:03:37  *** Nigel_ [~Nigel@] has joined #openttd
15:03:39  <TrueLight> even
15:03:42  <TrueLight> grimrc1: emerge --search sys-devel/binutils
15:03:46  <TrueLight> (is there a faster way?)
15:03:52  <TrueLight> shows the Gentoo version used
15:04:16  <TrueLight> as if he uses version, it is a big known problem, and not OpenTTD related
15:04:20  <grimrc1> I use eix - fast; I have 2.17 - not 2.17.x!
15:04:49  <grimrc1> I see the development versions: * and *, but they are masked out for me
15:04:58  <TrueLight> they are masked out for everyone
15:05:00  <TrueLight> so is 2.17 :)
15:05:08  <grimrc1> yep; it's broked strangely
15:05:27  <TrueLight> so that didn't kept you from using it :p
15:06:04  * Maedhros disappears into the sunset... err broad daylight
15:06:09  <Maedhros> see you later, guys
15:06:12  <TrueLight> bye Maedhros :)
15:06:24  *** JohnUK89 [~john@] has joined #openttd
15:06:27  *** Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:07:07  <grimrc1> now I know; I'm pretty sure 2.17 is a stable release; using --as-needed may be considered ricing though
15:08:37  <grimrc1> that's really strange; that guide says 2.17 is ok
15:09:38  <TrueLight> it should be yes
15:09:51  *** guru3 [~guru3@2002:51e7:e65f:1::1] has quit [Server closed connection]
15:10:03  <grimrc1> perhaps I have something else broken
15:10:17  *** Nigel [~Nigel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:11:50  <TrueLight> !openttd commit 2
15:11:50  <DorpsGek> Commit by darkvater :: r2 /trunk/ (9 files) (2004-08-10 14:14:00 +0000)
15:11:52  <DorpsGek> -Fix [993829] UDP Fixes (lucaspiller)
15:11:53  <TrueLight> :) hehe :)
15:11:54  <DorpsGek> -Fix change 255/0xFF to OWNER_SPECTATOR for
15:11:56  <DorpsGek> spectator stuff (TrueLight)
15:14:17  <TrueLight> !openttd url
15:14:18  <DorpsGek> TrueLight:
15:14:20  *** StarLite [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:14:21  <TrueLight> Also very useful :)
15:14:46  *** guru3 [~guru3@2002:51e7:e65f:1::1] has joined #openttd
15:15:13  <guru3> anyone help me out with where keypresses are handled?
15:18:49  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
15:18:55  *** DorpsGek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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15:19:58  <JohnUK89> TrueLight, whats going on with this bot of yours? lol
15:20:53  <TrueLight> sometimes I make a boo-hoo
15:20:55  <TrueLight> then it crashes
15:21:12  <JohnUK89> a boo-hoo... O_o
15:21:52  <Tron_> guru3: maybe if you're bit more inexact and vague
15:22:16  <guru3> i want to turn a keypress
15:22:17  <guru3> into a right click
15:22:23  <guru3> where do i intercept the keypress
15:22:27  <guru3> so i can forward it to a right click
15:22:33  *** Flyer [] has joined #openttd
15:22:46  <Tron_> video/
15:24:07  <guru3> ok
15:24:32  *** DorpsGek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:24:36  <TrueLight> bah..
15:24:49  <Darkvater> thgere, screw that fucking function
15:25:03  *** DorpsGek [] has joined #openttd
15:25:10  <Darkvater> !openttd commit
15:25:25  <Tron_> Darkvater: may i remind you that minors may be in this channel
15:25:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by Darkvater :: r5951 /trunk/tunnelbridge_cmd.c (2006-08-19 15:24:40 +0000)
15:25:39  <DorpsGek> - Codechange: GetVehicleOutOfTunnelTile() never did anything, and making it work properly only resulted in massive performance drops, and it not working properly also seemed to work, so make it not work properly once again.
15:26:03  <Darkvater> all minors please raise your hands
15:26:10  * JohnUK89 raises hand
15:26:15  *** JohnUK89 was kicked from #openttd by Darkvater [JohnUK89]
15:26:17  <Darkvater> anyone else?
15:26:22  <Tron_> *cough*
15:26:23  *** JohnUK89 [~john@] has joined #openttd
15:26:28  <JohnUK89> :P
15:26:34  <TrueLight> I hope you didn't get a cold Tron_?
15:26:47  *** Tron_ is now known as Tron
15:27:01  <JohnUK89> If webfreakz is in here he's a minor too
15:27:10  <JohnUK89> :)
15:27:19  <Darkvater> I guess he's smarter than to raise the hands ;)
15:27:21  <grimrc1> 1989 - 167
15:27:25  <grimrc1> 17 I mean
15:27:29  <JohnUK89> Yeah
15:27:29  <Tron> Darkvater: maybe a line explaining why exactly this function now is the way it is would've been nice
15:27:41  <grimrc1> is <18 minor or <16?
15:27:54  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, most countries hold it as <18
15:28:24  <Darkvater> Tron: the problem is, I don't know why it is as it is. I've been looking at it all day, trying various strategies and couldn't figure out the point behind
15:28:35  <JohnUK89> (Or if you're in Hull, <13
15:28:38  <JohnUK89> )
15:28:46  <Darkvater> especially the fact that checksignalproc() worked just the same with or without proper workings
15:29:07  <Darkvater> only when properly implemented, the function at about 65% of all assigned CPU time
15:29:13  <Darkvater> s/at/ate/
15:29:35  <Tron> that's simple to explain: signal propagation itself can skip over tunnels
15:30:13  <guru3> where does KMOD_CTRL come from?
15:30:42  <Darkvater> translatekeyboard or something
15:30:56  <guru3> so could i just arbitrarily use KMOD_RETURN?
15:31:08  <Darkvater> if it propagates, why is it even using the function?
15:31:13  <Tron> guru3: SDL
15:31:23  <Tron> return is no modifier key
15:31:28  <guru3> right
15:31:29  <grimrc1> JohnUK89: nope Stockport
15:31:30  <guru3> that's a good point
15:31:33  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:31:37  <Tron> Darkvater: interesting question, next question please
15:31:44  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, well it's <18 then
15:31:50  <grimrc1> JohnUK89: Stockport's a beautiful town, or not
15:31:53  <guru3> so SDLK_RETURN
15:31:55  <guru3> would that be ok?
15:31:57  <JohnUK89> Lmao
15:32:12  <JohnUK89> I'm moving to Leeds in a couple of weeks, so I know how you feel
15:32:23  <Darkvater> Tron: the funny part is, if I _turn_ around a train inside a tunnel, the whole thing is screwed
15:32:24  <grimrc1> I liked living in Manchester though
15:32:38  <Darkvater> v->tile is *never* swapped around on reverse inside a tunnel
15:32:50  <Tron> Darkvater: which "whole thing"?
15:33:03  <Tron> Darkvater: it's always the tile the vehicle entered the tunnel
15:33:14  <Darkvater> the assumption that inside a tunnel v->tile points to the entrance
15:33:20  <Tron> Darkvater: that's one of the reasons why i suggested to use TileVirtXY(v->x, v->y)
15:33:29  <Tron> instead of v->tile
15:34:01  <valhallasw> TrueLight was the Leiden guy here, right? :+
15:34:18  <Darkvater> Tron: for all computations?
15:34:29  <TrueLight> valhallasw: yeah, why?
15:34:32  <Tron> Darkvater: for GetVehicleOutOfTunnel
15:34:45  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, at the moment, I'm in the middle of the countryside, but I can hardly get anywhere at I'm going to Leeds, so I'll be closer to stuff, and be able to get a bus every 10 minutes into the centre
15:34:45  <valhallasw> TrueLight: ben je lid? :P
15:34:51  <TrueLight> valhallasw: PM
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15:35:09  <Darkvater> I think I missed that suggestion
15:36:20  <grimrc1> JohnUK89: yeah that's why I like cities
15:36:45  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, yep, and the broadband helps too
15:36:55  <JohnUK89> (I can't get it where I am)
15:37:00  <grimrc1> oh yeah!  civilisation
15:37:08  <JohnUK89> Yep!
15:37:36  <JohnUK89> I'll be able to play OTTD online :P
15:38:11  <hylje> :o
15:38:11  <grimrc1> brb
15:38:24  <JohnUK89> hylje, you look shocked lol
15:38:42  *** grimrc1 [] has quit [Quit: brb]
15:38:56  <JohnUK89> the thought of me playing OTTD online shocks you that much?
15:38:57  <JohnUK89> :P
15:39:16  <hylje> yes
15:39:30  <JohnUK89> And why does it shock you?
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15:40:00  <TrueLight> I did it again :)
15:40:07  *** DorpsGek [] has joined #openttd
15:40:10  <JohnUK89> TrueLight, borked it up?
15:40:44  <TrueLight> food!
15:41:13  <JohnUK89> Hmm I need food too...I'll wait for bout quarter of an a couple of things to do
15:41:52  *** Darkvater [] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
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15:45:37  *** JohnUK89 [~john@] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by john_))]
15:45:40  *** john_ is now known as JohnUK89
15:46:07  <JohnUK89> Blargh!
15:46:07  *** WolfAngel [] has joined #openttd
15:47:14  <JohnUK89> brb
15:47:15  *** JohnUK89 [~john@] has quit []
15:48:43  *** JohnUK89 [~john@] has joined #openttd
15:48:54  <JohnUK89> I never knew TwinView could do that...
15:49:36  <guru3> woo my key bindings are coming together
15:49:39  <SpComb> do what?
15:50:08  <JohnUK89> SpComb, use different resolutions for each output
15:50:16  *** RPGprayer [] has joined #openttd
15:50:42  <JohnUK89> Just tried it and it works! :-D
15:50:52  <RPGprayer> Anyone know where I can get a hold of the TGP download? The link is broken on the site now for some reason.
15:51:06  <Zavior> Newest nightly?
15:51:17  <RPGprayer> tgp wasn't in it, apparently
15:51:44  <JohnUK89> It's been merged with trunk
15:51:45  <RPGprayer> At least the TerraGenesis thingy window didn't appear when i chose "New game" like before
15:51:58  <RPGprayer> Trunk?
15:52:17  <RPGprayer> as in 0.4.8?
15:52:17  <JohnUK89> Yeah, latest SVN...(someone help him :P)
15:52:20  <RPGprayer> lawl
15:52:23  <guru3> how do you tell if two keys are pressed at once in sdl?
15:52:38  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, not 0.4.8, no
15:52:54  <JohnUK89> It'll be in tonights nightly
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15:53:18  <RPGprayer> when is "tonight", then? around 20-21 GMT?
15:53:35  <JohnUK89> Don't know, whenever the nightlies get compiled
15:53:39  <RPGprayer> blargh
15:53:47  <JohnUK89> I normally get them the morning after
15:53:58  <JohnUK89> (either that or I compile from source myself)
15:54:11  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
15:54:25  <RPGprayer> Doesn't anyone have the tgp install/zip to send?
15:54:41  *** grimrc1 [] has joined #openttd
15:54:59  <JohnUK89> Darkvater, ping
15:56:11  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, wb
15:56:18  <RPGprayer> By the way, is there a good list with newgrf's to download? the forum is kind of messy
15:57:07  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer,
15:57:24  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Cheers
15:57:35  <grimrc1> rehi all; I had the dedicated USE flag on and so I'm recompiling agin
15:57:54  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, lol
15:57:54  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
15:58:30  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: I just hope the stuff will work for ottd
15:58:51  *** izhirahider [] has quit [Server closed connection]
15:59:03  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, the stuff on there most likely does, as long as you follow any instructions that are giver for OTTD
15:59:03  *** izhirahider [] has joined #openttd
15:59:39  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Well, afaik, it's nothing special you have to do
16:00:04  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, some grf's have incompatabilities, sometimes there is a seperate version of the grf for OTTD
16:00:25  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Ah, haven't encountered those before
16:01:13  <JohnUK89> An example of one is Planeset
16:03:01  <grimrc1> I've not tried the Mars add-on
16:03:01  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: For the Long Road Vehicles grf; is there a way to make it compatible with ottd? i tried that one before and it worked, with some graphics bugs
16:03:21  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Version 3, that is
16:03:21  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, I don't know, I haven't used it tbh
16:03:31  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Okay, just asking
16:03:31  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, me neither
16:04:20  <grimrc1> hehe there's a brick viaduct grf in there; Stockport has the longest/biggest/somethingest viaduct in Europe apparently
16:04:34  <JohnUK89> Lol
16:05:26  <grimrc1> Stockport's claims to fame are the viaduct, a blue pyramid office building and scallies
16:05:39  <grimrc1> oh and its hatting history
16:05:41  <JohnUK89> The chavs especially :P
16:05:46  <Patrick`> lol stockport
16:05:48  <grimrc1> yeah but we call them scallies here
16:05:59  <Patrick`> it's the rectum of manchester
16:06:08  <grimrc1> certainly is
16:06:18  <grimrc1> though Manchester has a few rougher places
16:06:36  <Patrick`> such as stockport.
16:06:40  <grimrc1> heh
16:06:58  <grimrc1> Stockport's like a big motorway service station on the A6; except the A6 isn't a motorway
16:07:47  <grimrc1> yay I've got openttd up
16:08:50  <grimrc1> openttd would make a cool screensaver
16:11:23  <RPGprayer> hehe
16:14:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by Darkvater :: r5951 /trunk/tunnelbridge_cmd.c (2006-08-19 15:24:40 +0000)
16:14:15  <DorpsGek> - Codechange: GetVehicleOutOfTunnelTile() never did anything, and making it work properly only resulted in massive performance drops, and it not working properly also seemed to work, so make it not work properly once again.
16:14:17  <TrueLight> This was a test message
16:14:25  <TrueLight> Almost done :)
16:15:30  <RPGprayer> hurreh
16:15:31  <RPGprayer> :D
16:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> can you make it a proper timezone?
16:16:41  <TrueLight> proper? haha
16:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e CEST)
16:16:50  <TrueLight> +0000 is pretty proper
16:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody currently hase +0000 time
16:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> -e
16:18:14  <JohnUK89> Some african nations do :)
16:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> see ;)
16:18:43  * JohnUK89 slaps Eddi|zuHause for being silly
16:18:46  <JohnUK89> :)
16:19:34  *** Zr40 [] has joined #openttd
16:19:40  <RPGprayer> nightly build will be evening build :O
16:19:42  *** NameHere [] has joined #openttd
16:19:54  <NameHere> hi all
16:20:05  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, it'll be a whenever it's compiled build :P
16:20:05  <RPGprayer> Is there a way to edit grf's by the way?
16:20:21  *** NameHere is now known as Xipheas
16:21:45  <TrueLight> hmm.. no netcat on OpenTTD SVNServer yet
16:21:46  <TrueLight> weird
16:21:54  <TrueLight> so let's install it
16:22:46  <RPGprayer> TrueLight: Do you know of another download location for TGP until the nightly is done? I don't want to wait if i really, really, have to (and please don't say i have to wait, not for long anyway >_<)
16:22:57  <grimrc1> updated CFLAGS if anybody's interested:
16:23:08  <Patrick`> compile it yerself
16:23:16  <TrueLight> RPGprayer: you have to wait 1 hour and 27 minutes... depending on your OS, it might be 1 hour and 49 minutes
16:23:29  <RPGprayer> amagaaaad
16:23:33  <RPGprayer> -_- :)
16:23:40  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, you impatient bugger :P
16:23:42  <RPGprayer> Patrick`: teach me :D
16:23:47  * XeryusTC never had to wait for it >:)
16:23:55  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Can't argue with that
16:23:59  <XeryusTC> compiling yourself rocks :D
16:24:01  <Xipheas> i have Open ttd ver installed, and have just d/l 0.4.8  can someone tell me what I need to do to upgrade it pls?
16:24:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by Darkvater :: r5951 /trunk/tunnelbridge_cmd.c (2006-08-19 15:24:40 UTC)
16:24:10  <JohnUK89> XeryusTC, doesn't it!
16:24:11  <DorpsGek> - Codechange: GetVehicleOutOfTunnelTile() never did anything, and making it work properly only resulted in massive performance drops, and it not working properly also seemed to work, so make it not work properly once again.
16:24:13  <TrueLight> Ah, it works :)
16:24:18  <TrueLight> k, next commit should go in automaticly :)
16:24:32  <XeryusTC> JohnUK89: it does!
16:24:36  <RPGprayer> And why the heck does my mouse cursor feck up when I tab from ottd? :(
16:25:17  <JohnUK89> XeryusTC, I never got compiling it in Winblows I moved over to Linux and it works now :P
16:25:26  <stillunknown> is there an easy way to find out where a nick (which channels) on an irc server?
16:25:36  <JohnUK89> stillunknown, whois
16:25:48  <stillunknown> "/whois"?
16:25:51  <XeryusTC> yes
16:25:56  <XeryusTC> /whois name
16:26:04  <JohnUK89> "/whois <nick>"
16:26:08  *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-83-100-152-32.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
16:26:13  <JohnUK89> Oh Noes!!
16:26:17  <TinoM> Xipheas, just extract into the same dir, overwriting the old files
16:26:18  <XeryusTC> you won't see all the secret channels though
16:26:28  * XeryusTC hands everybody a helmet and runs
16:26:30  <Xipheas> TinoM thanks! :)
16:26:35  <TrueLight> now we need a commit...
16:26:41  <TinoM> i don'T know about compatiblity with your old savegames
16:26:42  * JohnUK89 runs in a different direction
16:26:54  <Patrick`> kthxbyee
16:27:17  <XeryusTC> TinoM: stables should be able to load savegames from other (older) stables
16:27:32  <stillunknown> anyone ever get strange DCC SEND's? (containing random or only one letter many times)
16:27:44  <TinoM> k, Xipheas have a look at XeryusTC statement *g*
16:27:54  <hylje> stillunknown: script kiddies *g*
16:27:58  <Xipheas> :) thanks
16:28:12  <XeryusTC> *g*?
16:28:22  <JohnUK89> grin
16:28:51  <XeryusTC> shouldn't that be just :D?
16:28:58  <RPGprayer> I wish ottd will have trams and subways soon :O
16:29:13  * stillunknown wonders who will actually accept those things (strange DCC's)
16:29:16  <RPGprayer> Oh, and a swedish train and bus set
16:29:18  <JohnUK89> XeryusTC, yeah lol
16:29:56  <XeryusTC> RPGprayer: isn't there a swedish set?
16:30:07  <DorpsGek> Commit by tron :: r5952 /trunk/ (newgrf_text.c newgrf_text.h) (2006-08-19 16:30:05 UTC)
16:30:08  <Tron> TrueLight: here you are
16:30:09  <DorpsGek> - struct GRFText{Entry,} are private to newgrf_text.c
16:30:11  <DorpsGek> - use a variable size array instead of another malloc()
16:30:23  <RPGprayer> XeryusTC: yeah, but afaik it only had like 3 trains or something
16:30:49  <XeryusTC> RPGprayer: so? the dutch set only has 4 trains too IIRC, and people use it :)
16:31:27  <stillunknown> the british set seems well done, plenty of trains
16:31:38  *** ChrisM87_ [] has joined #openttd
16:31:43  <RPGprayer> XeryusTC: Haha, well, as long as it doesn't mess up with other grf's
16:31:44  *** ChrisM87 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:31:48  <TrueLight> so it runs nicely
16:32:13  <RPGprayer> By the way; is it only me or does banks never appear in ottd? :O
16:32:33  <hylje> they do
16:32:34  <TrueLight> only it talks too slow :(
16:33:08  <XeryusTC> TrueLight: get CIA back in here then :P
16:33:11  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5953 /trunk/ (genworld_gui.c lang/english.txt) (2006-08-19 16:33:10 UTC)
16:33:13  <DorpsGek> -Fix: tooltip for FlatLand had wrong color (tnx glx)
16:33:28  <RPGprayer> hylje: Really? I don't think I've seen a single bank in forever
16:33:37  <grimrc1> do you think openttd is very popular with train-spotters?
16:33:58  <glx> !openttd url
16:33:59  <DorpsGek> glx:
16:34:09  <hylje> you haven't played long enough then ;)
16:34:37  <grimrc1> RPGprayer: what year have you played till?
16:34:47  <RPGprayer> durr, 1920-2050 a couple of times should have revealed at least a single bank
16:34:58  <RPGprayer> with different installs
16:35:02  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:35:54  *** Flyer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:38:54  *** silent [~pwr@] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
16:39:30  *** TinoM| [] has joined #openttd
16:39:55  <TrueLight> okay, so 'CIA' is back :)
16:39:57  <TrueLight> nice to have ;)
16:40:28  <hylje> yay
16:41:18  <TrueLight> if anyone wants any additions to it, let me know
16:41:33  <TrueLight> hylje: I will clean up the code soon and share it with you
16:41:36  <TrueLight> just not now :p
16:42:47  *** XeryusTC [] has joined #openttd
16:43:02  <hylje> no hurry
16:43:11  <TrueLight> 253 lines :p
16:44:15  <webfreakz> !seen webfreak*
16:44:15  <DorpsGek> webfreakz, I found one match to your query: webfreakz. webfreakz (~Ronald@ was last seen joining #openttd 5 hours 1 minute ago (19.08. 11:43). webfreakz is still there.
16:44:37  <webfreakz> where can i see all the commands?
16:44:44  <webfreakz> !seen /help
16:44:45  <DorpsGek> webfreakz, /help? hmm... I'm trying to remember... maybe... I'm not sure... no. I don't remember /help.
16:44:46  <JohnUK89> !commands
16:44:57  <webfreakz> !commands
16:45:10  <JohnUK89> !help
16:45:13  <webfreakz> !help
16:45:22  <webfreakz> !kick blaaaaat
16:45:29  <TrueLight> there is no such thing
16:45:30  <TrueLight> period
16:45:32  <JohnUK89> webfreakz, when I've said them there's no need to say them again ;-)
16:46:01  <webfreakz> JohnUK89: :X
16:46:10  <webfreakz> :)
16:46:42  *** TinoM [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:51:18  <Sacro> !commands
16:51:21  <Sacro> aww :(
16:51:34  *** Wolf01|AFK is now known as Wolf01
16:51:44  <JohnUK89> Sacro, already been tried :P
16:56:10  <grimrc1> do you guys ever talk to Sid Meier?
16:56:19  <hylje> no
16:57:03  <grimrc1> I'm suprised he hasn't swung by to say hello; who knows; maybe he did in disguise?
16:57:15  <hylje> :o
16:57:17  <Kjetil> Why Sid Meier ?
16:57:25  <grimrc1> didn't he make TTDLX?
16:57:32  <Kjetil> Chris Sawyer made it
16:57:32  <hylje> afaik no
16:57:40  <grimrc1> oh yeah; what about him then?
16:57:47  <hylje> sid is/was making a train simulator tho :p
16:57:51  <glx> Sid Meier is simcity guy, no?
16:57:57  <hylje> no.
16:58:00  <hylje> civ guy
16:58:09  <grimrc1> Chris Sawyer even dropped by?
16:58:10  <hylje> and he made a pirate game too
16:58:14  <Kjetil> Some of the devs have been in contact with him regarding graphics. But he doesn't seem all that interrested
16:58:41  <grimrc1> he must have tried openttd out
16:59:01  <grimrc1> do you think he's a Gentoo ricer?
16:59:10  <hylje> dunno lol
16:59:35  <grimrc1> I bet he's on Windows
17:00:36  <Kjetil> I bet he's on dos
17:00:52  <Kjetil> /cocaine
17:02:20  <grimrc1> from Chris' site: "Simon Foster is an independent freelance graphic artist who has a long association with Chris Sawyer, having created the graphics for all his games since Transport Tycoon in 1992/1993."
17:03:48  <grimrc1> from Simon's site: "That little bungalow on the left with the brown roof is my father's house. The one behind it is Chris' old house." hehe
17:04:53  <grimrc1> wonder if Simon owns the copyright to the artwork ??
17:05:44  <Kjetil> Guess what.. So does the rest of the world :P
17:05:50  <Kjetil> nobody knows
17:06:02  <grimrc1> people already tried that?
17:06:10  <Kjetil> mhm
17:06:29  <grimrc1> strangely, neither Simon nor Chris mention Openttd on their sites
17:06:52  <Kjetil> Well.. they aren't involved in it
17:12:18  <Sacro> hmm, be interesting if he came in
17:12:45  <JohnUK89> Yeah, wonder what would happen lol
17:14:59  *** Bjarni [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:15:34  <JohnUK89> Does Chris actually know OTTD exists?
17:15:34  *** Trenskow [] has joined #openttd
17:16:01  *** Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
17:16:03  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
17:16:19  <Sacro> JohnUK89: go and ask him
17:16:23  <grimrc1> a thought: if he doesn't, maybe it's best that nobody mentions it?
17:16:34  * Sacro considers going into #tycoon as CSawyer
17:16:41  <JohnUK89> Sacro, no thanks :)
17:16:54  <grimrc1> he'll eventually find out anyway
17:16:56  <lws1984> probably not the best idea
17:17:05  <lws1984> actuall,y it would be fun
17:17:18  <grimrc1> bit surprising nobody's done this before
17:18:19  <JohnUK89> IF nobody's done it before, that is
17:19:07  <grimrc1> he probably gets 5 e-mails/week from openttd users saying "thanks for letting openttd happen!"
17:19:28  <JohnUK89> Wouldn't surprise me at all
17:19:41  <Sacro> hum, lets start a MiniIN game
17:20:04  <Sacro> who maintains the site?
17:20:09  <RPGprayer> What is MiniIN anyway?
17:20:09  <grimrc1> he shouldn't complain anyway, lots of people who never heard of it before may buy the disk
17:20:23  <JohnUK89> Sacro, I would join if I was on a decent connection...but I'd only be able to watch, since my network building skills leave a lot to be desired
17:20:36  <Sacro> div .ad_back 4 contains nothing...
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17:30:14  <grimrc1> you know how you have lots of different unix signals you can use with the kill command?  is there a signal that tells an app to restart/reload settings?
17:30:32  <Kjetil> -HUP
17:31:17  * Sacro cries
17:33:25  <grimrc1> wow that's awesome; it worked with gnome-panel and now the menu has the screensaver option I just installed, without logging out
17:33:43  <grimrc1> does the app have to support SIGHUP to work properly?
17:34:14  <Sacro> i think so
17:34:21  <Sacro> unless it just kills it and restarts it some other way
17:34:32  <grimrc1> yeah that's what I was wondering
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17:38:17  <grimrc1> as you can probably tell, I'm not a Unix old-timer unfortunately
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18:05:48  <grimrc1> hmmm gnome-session doesn't like killall -1 as much as gnome-panel; what did my quit message say?
18:06:06  <Sacro> [19:03] *** grimrc1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:06:19  <grimrc1> hehe
18:06:33  <RPGprayer> stupid ottd hides my mouse cursor when i tab >_< couldn't see to copy the text
18:08:00  <grimrc1> that did the job though; the gnome-screensaver wasn't actually starting before
18:08:38  *** MeusH [] has joined #openttd
18:08:43  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, shouldn't use Winblows then ;-)
18:08:43  <grimrc1> it's got this spooky slow fade-out effect before it loads the screensaver; and it's not like the old screensavers where it'd take a snapshot; the desktop's really running as it fades out
18:08:49  <Sacro> grimrc1: hehe, -HUP gnome-session wil do that
18:09:01  <MeusH> hi
18:09:04  *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AFK
18:09:07  <JohnUK89> MeusH, ello
18:09:07  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Lol, it works, it works
18:09:32  <MeusH> Rubidium, how can I determine a random seed of a saved game?
18:09:35  <Sacro> hey mr MeusH
18:09:40  <grimrc1> I mean -HUP didn't start the screensaver; it just made me relogin and then the screensaver magically started working
18:09:42  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: And besides; the games that i play are for windows and hard to get to work on Lajnucks
18:09:43  <MeusH> evening Sacro
18:09:51  <MeusH> Rubidium, I mean in TGP
18:09:57  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, never heard of Cedega? :)
18:10:06  <Sacro> MeusH: therse only 1 way i can think of...
18:10:18  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: No, actually... An emulator?
18:10:20  <Sacro> 00000000, 00000001, 00000002
18:10:35  <MeusH> ouch
18:10:47  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, not as such, it is basically a compatability layer
18:11:01  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Arite, fill me in
18:11:18  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, best do a bit of googling <koff> <koff>
18:11:25  <RPGprayer> JohnUK89: Nevah!
18:11:53  <RPGprayer> (far too busy playing ottd, tbh)
18:11:58  <JohnUK89> lmao
18:12:32  <RPGprayer> I'm making a subway kind of thing
18:12:44  <RPGprayer> as far as it's possible to make subways in ttd
18:12:53  <JohnUK89> Lol
18:14:03  <grimrc1> I'm trying to use Openttd with gnome-screensaver; I've made the config file and it does start it in preview mode but it doesn't capture the game window inside the little box; openttd is started as a separate app.; also, running in real screensaver mode openttd doesn't seem to be started at all
18:14:07  <RPGprayer> i'm surprised the inhabitants of the town hasn't lynched me thrice over for destroying half of their town for making my evil transport empire subway thingie :/
18:15:27  <hylje> :d
18:15:31  <hylje> anyway
18:15:38  <grimrc1> anybody got experience with screensavers under Linux?  can I use openttd?
18:15:50  <hylje> i suppose subway can be done after new map array is first done
18:16:23  <hylje> because now tunnels are magic, and can't have anything in it
18:16:27  <RPGprayer> the only experience i have with linux screensavers are poking around with the 4363 ones that comes with ubuntu and thinking "LOLWOWCOOL" -_-
18:16:44  <grimrc1> LOL!!1! indeed
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18:17:10  <grimrc1> last time I used Linux, it was Debian unstable 3.0 or something like that; I think screensavers must be growing exponentially
18:17:31  <RPGprayer> i don't want to know how big the list will be in a couple of years :d
18:17:50  <grimrc1> they'll be LiveCD CD 5
18:17:58  <RPGprayer> haha
18:18:01  <MeusH> my experience with screensavers on linux is that they are nice but linux isn't the best thing to do 3D
18:18:09  <MeusH> I had around 10fps
18:18:15  <RPGprayer> haha true that
18:18:32  <RPGprayer> grow little city... GROW!
18:18:39  <grimrc1> MeusH: did you go through all the setting up X and kernel for your graphics card properly (if it can be done with your particular one)?
18:19:07  <RPGprayer> i hate the fact that the diagnostic tool in ubuntu didn't show what kind of cpu the comp had :/
18:19:24  <MeusH> grimrc1: I'm not sure, I installed that ubuntu and run it, the only thing I configured was network
18:19:30  <grimrc1> RPGprayer: that's easy to do; just cat /proc/cpuinfo
18:19:35  <MeusH> now linux doesn't work at all
18:19:40  <RPGprayer> grimrc1: Say what?
18:19:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by miham :: r5954 /trunk/lang/ (6 files) (2006-08-19 18:19:41 UTC)
18:19:45  <RPGprayer> grimrc1: Lol
18:19:45  <DorpsGek> WebTranslator2 update to 2006-08-19 20:17:26
18:19:47  <DorpsGek> dutch      - 54 fixed by webfreakz (54)
18:19:48  <hylje> linux 3d is as good as if not better than windows
18:19:49  <DorpsGek> french     - 74 fixed by glx (74)
18:19:51  <DorpsGek> hungarian  - 79 fixed by miham (79)
18:19:53  <DorpsGek> norwegian  - 2 fixed by oletk (2)
18:19:55  <DorpsGek> (...) (truncated)
18:19:58  <RPGprayer> DorpsGek: Spam :(
18:20:01  <grimrc1> MeusH: you're new to Linux?
18:20:03  <hylje> except on D3D-optimised gfx cards (coughATI)
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18:20:49  <MiHaMiX> Total I18N status: 93% - 5447 bad strings out of 78532 strings
18:21:01  <grimrc1> I'm using Radeon 9000 with the open-source drivers; there is an annoying problem where if the X server is closed then switching to terminal 7 (where it usually is) will freeze my display till I reboot
18:21:08  <MeusH> grimrc1, yep
18:21:41  <MiHaMiX> polish     - 1 changed by meush (1)
18:21:42  <MiHaMiX> portuguese - 15 fixed by izhirahider (15)
18:21:53  <grimrc1> MeusH: it is a big deal setting up the kernel and xserver for your graphics card even now; depends what card you have and how recent it is; older cards just work I think
18:22:42  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, the open source driver for radeons before the 9500 has DRI, and just "works"
18:22:57  <JohnUK89> It's nvidias that take a load of arsing about to get working
18:22:57  <Sacro> its in times like this i think "WWTFSMD"
18:23:54  <grimrc1> yeah I know JohnUK89; I have the Radeon 9000 and am using open source driver; still have to recompile the kernel the right way (agpgart, agp chipset, drm and radeon) and also the Xserver
18:24:09  <JohnUK89> grimrc1, shouldn't need a recompile
18:25:00  <grimrc1> does if you start with Gentoo LiveCD I think; not sure though; I've done it already anyway
18:25:12  <JohnUK89> Oh Gentoo...yeah in that case :P
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18:25:23  <Eddi|zuHause> strange... i have a radeon 9700, downloaded the proprietary driver, and it Just Works (tm)
18:25:33  <MeusH> I see TGP doubles many already existing strings instead of using these
18:25:47  <MeusH> why is that? Are you preparing some lang cleanup?
18:25:54  <grimrc1> can't work out what that means Sacro
18:25:56  <JohnUK89> Eddi|zuHause, GeForce 6200 here...downloaded the proprietary nvidia driver, installed it, and my X server died
18:26:08  <JohnUK89> Ends up I had to disable the AGP modules
18:26:13  <JohnUK89> and use nvidia's own one
18:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause> although my card dies if i use 3D functions... but that is a problem of the card, it was already under windows...
18:26:56  <JohnUK89> Mine works with full 3d acceleration now
18:27:03  <JohnUK89> But in PCI mode :-\
18:27:08  <grimrc1> Eddi|zuHause: haha you call that "Just Works"?
18:27:14  <hylje> :o
18:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well... the driver works
18:27:42  <grimrc1> I think the open source driver supports 2D on new cards
18:27:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i suspect it is a cooling problem
18:28:01  <grimrc1> Eddi|zuHause: yeah probably; you should be able to get temperature data from the graphics card I think
18:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> 3D works also, but only for a few seconds
18:28:26  * JohnUK89 buggers off to play UT2004 :P
18:28:52  *** Nigel_ [~Nigel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:28:52  <grimrc1> actually maybe not
18:29:00  *** Rens2Intarweb [~Rens2Sea@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:29:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't play 3D games that often anyway...
18:29:09  <Eddi|zuHause> usually i watch TV
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18:29:53  <RPGprayer> i think it's the other way around for me :/
18:29:57  <grimrc1> heh
18:30:00  <RPGprayer> tv sucks anyway
18:30:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i recently discovered the "undocumented" video acceleration feature of the driver ;)
18:30:29  <JohnUK89> I recently discovered Xgl and compiz ;-)
18:30:43  <RPGprayer> o_O
18:30:44  <RPGprayer> compiz
18:30:45  <RPGprayer> lol
18:31:10  <JohnUK89> RPGprayer, you don't know what it is, you use Winblows :-D
18:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... KDE update... 300MB...
18:31:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that's gonna take a while...
18:31:25  <hylje> heheh
18:31:25  <JohnUK89> 200MB here
18:31:41  <Sacro> 0 here
18:31:53  <grimrc1> I can't find any documentation about using gnome-screensaver
18:31:58  <Mucht> compiled r5953 dedicated...
18:32:00  <Mucht> ./openttd -D
18:32:02  <Mucht> Error: Could not generate any town
18:32:04  <Mucht> oO
18:32:11  <Sacro> map size?
18:32:13  <Mucht> diff_custom = 0,3,1,2,500,4,2,2,0,0,0,1,7,0,0,1,0,0
18:32:15  <Mucht> 256x256
18:32:31  <Mucht> too small this mapsize?
18:32:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the TTD standard size, i think
18:33:11  <hylje> hehe
18:33:35  <Eddi|zuHause> can you reproduce?
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18:33:44  <Mucht> I tried it 3 times in a row ;-)
18:33:53  <Mucht> dbg: Percent complete: 25
18:33:53  <Mucht> dbg: Percent complete: 30
18:33:54  <Mucht> dbg: Percent complete: 35
18:33:54  <Mucht> Error: Could not generate any town
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18:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> try the random seed in the scenario editor
18:34:49  <Mucht> erm what?
18:34:58  <Mucht> I see no .cfg setting for that?
18:36:14  <TrueLight> Mucht: need more info
18:36:18  <TrueLight> climate
18:36:25  <Mucht> normal
18:36:28  <hylje> :o
18:36:35  <TrueLight> TG generator?
18:36:39  <TrueLight> tree setting
18:36:44  <TrueLight> terrain setting (smoothness)
18:36:47  <Mucht> oO where to set that?
18:36:54  <TrueLight> via GUI
18:36:58  <TrueLight> or land_generator
18:36:59  <Mucht> haha
18:37:02  <TrueLight> and smoothness something
18:37:18  <Mucht> and how to on a dedicated server which doesn't start?
18:37:19  <TrueLight> or just give me an openttd.cfg
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18:38:12  <TrueLight> because here it generates maps every single time
18:39:19  <Mucht>
18:39:38  <TrueLight> RPGprayer: next time you call a commit message spam, you will be kicked
18:39:44  <TrueLight> (late responce, but okay)
18:40:16  <TrueLight> got the file, tnx
18:40:22  <TrueLight> works fine here
18:40:34  <TrueLight> every
18:40:35  <TrueLight> single
18:40:35  <TrueLight> time
18:40:39  <Mucht> wtf
18:40:41  <hylje> wtf
18:40:49  <TrueLight> revision 5953
18:40:53  <TrueLight> hylje: don't be a parrot
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18:41:13  <Mucht> wait
18:41:15  <hylje> :<
18:41:19  <Mucht> it didn't compile correctly :-/
18:41:28  <TrueLight> Mucht: you do know the rcon password was in that file, right?
18:41:47  <TrueLight> and that blog site... that green on that orange/red hurts my eyes :( :(
18:41:55  <Mucht> its the coopetition server, we have to change it every time
18:42:02  <TrueLight> OwenS: got that savegame for me?
18:43:22  <GoneWacko>
18:43:25  <GoneWacko> Yes, I was bored.
18:43:58  <GoneWacko> and thanks to the openttd source for being there to explain to me the best way to get rid of the blue ( :p)
18:44:14  <TrueLight> pretty :)
18:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that last one has a typo
18:45:03  <GoneWacko> figuring out which tile the mouse is over is what got me the last time I tried this (in Delphi :p)
18:45:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and makes you crazy by looking at ;)
18:45:14  <GoneWacko> I don't expect it to be any easier
18:45:34  * XeryusTC slaps TrueLight, stop complaining about the blog, get busy with gpmi :D
18:45:51  <TrueLight> XeryusTC: it hurts my eyes
18:46:21  <Mucht> bla
18:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> GoneWacko: why is that a problem? as long as it is 2D, it's a simple coordinate transformation
18:46:40  <XeryusTC> more reason to start with gpmi, you don't need to look at it then :P
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18:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it gets slightly more problematic, if you have different height levels
18:46:57  <TrueLight> Mucht: does it work when it did compile?
18:46:59  <GoneWacko> Eddi|zuHause: because I've not been able to figure it out before :p and I do mean to implement height levels, yes :p
18:47:06  <Mucht> TrueLight: working on it
18:47:18  <Mucht> had to revert etc
18:47:33  <TrueLight> local changes are never a good thing :)
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18:48:06  <Mucht> I know, I know....
18:48:19  <Eddi|zuHause> GoneWacko: you only need to remember that cos(30°)=0.8660 ... then all other calculations are trivial
18:48:47  <grimrc1> unbroked link:
18:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause> (that's assuming you have the standard 30° isometric)
18:49:12  <hylje> :o
18:49:38  <GoneWacko> hrrm :p
18:50:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yay, 150MB down, 150MB to go
18:51:39  <TrueLight> for what?
18:51:46  <GoneWacko> porn!
18:52:06  <hylje> internet is for porn
18:52:34  <Kjetil> oh.. is it ?
18:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> KDE update ;)
18:52:46  <XeryusTC> internet is for playint OTTD MP
18:52:51  <XeryusTC> t=g
18:53:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ingernet?
18:53:12  <JohnUK89> playing
18:53:14  <JohnUK89> :)
18:53:21  <GoneWacko> ingering, it would be, then
18:53:25  <GoneWacko> Eddi|zuHause fails
18:53:29  <GoneWacko> wait
18:53:30  <GoneWacko> I fail
18:53:31  <GoneWacko> fuck :p
18:53:34  <grimrc1> does anybody know if Openttd tries to do any SDL tricks or other methods to stop a screensaver running (on Linux); gnome-screensaver seems to work fine with openttd running
18:53:45  <JohnUK89> It would be ingerneg GoneWacko
18:53:49  <GoneWacko> yes.
18:53:57  <XeryusTC> no it wont :P
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18:59:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but ingereg sounds idiotic...
18:59:51  <Eddi|zuHause> *ingerneg
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19:01:27  <matthias_87> hello guys
19:02:49  <Eddi|zuHause> see what you did? you killed the conversation ;)
19:06:12  <matthias_87> i see... i'm a killer
19:08:30  <Mucht> which could lead to another conversation
19:08:46  <izhirahider> I got a warning in latest svn
19:08:48  <izhirahider> player_gui.c: In function 'DrawPlayerEconomyStats':
19:08:48  <izhirahider> player_gui.c:47: warning: assignment from incompatible pointer type
19:09:08  <izhirahider> gcc version 4.1.1 20060525
19:10:28  <Sacro> izhirahider: latest is not a version
19:11:26  <JohnUK89> izhirahider, you do realise that SVN isn't guaranteed to compile don't you?
19:11:29  *** RPGprayer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:11:31  <izhirahider> At revision 5954.
19:11:36  <izhirahider> I forgot that
19:11:46  <Sacro> izhirahider: trunk? MiniIN?
19:11:57  <izhirahider> trunk
19:12:09  <izhirahider> it's just a warning
19:12:33  <Sacro> hmm
19:12:35  <JohnUK89> tried a different version of gcc?
19:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> a warning is not something you can just ignore...
19:13:04  <grimrc1> izhirahider: I got the same warning I think
19:13:05  <Eddi|zuHause> a warning is: "it is not forbidden to do this, but you probably wanted to do something else"
19:13:08  <Sacro> i ignore warning all the time
19:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "warning: do not put knife in your eyes"
19:13:48  <izhirahider> Eddi|zuHause, I'm just mentioning it because I don't know if there are developers that use gcc 4.1.1, which is known to cause more warnings than gcc 4.0.x :)
19:14:11  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: thats less of a warning, and more like COMMON SENSE
19:14:29  <Sacro> which seems to be missing nowadays :(
19:14:30  <Eddi|zuHause> as it is COMMON SENSE to not assign incompatible types
19:14:37  <JohnUK89> Sacro, says you eh? ;-)
19:15:01  <Sacro> JohnUK89: meaning?
19:15:30  *** netgert [] has quit []
19:15:33  <JohnUK89> Bad attempt at a joke
19:15:43  <izhirahider> Please understand that I was just reporting it, nothing else.
19:15:44  <Sacro> yes you are :P
19:15:58  <JohnUK89> Oi! :P
19:16:24  <Sacro> anywho, im going out, bye!
19:16:30  <JohnUK89> Sacro, cya
19:16:30  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-83-100-152-32.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:16:37  <JohnUK89> Damnit >_<
19:19:23  <XeryusTC> is there anyone here that wants too coopete against Osai and Mucht? join #openttdcoop if you want too ;)
19:20:18  *** nlhans [] has joined #openttd
19:20:26  <Mucht> ah nlhans coming
19:20:46  <nlhans> ^^
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19:45:06  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5955 /trunk/intro_gui.c (2006-08-19 19:45:04 UTC)
19:45:08  <DorpsGek> -Fix r5728: 2 very important lines for ShowQueryString where removed by excident.
19:45:10  <DorpsGek>   Because of this you couldn't join servers with passwords, and more of those
19:45:12  <DorpsGek>   problems. (tnx Mucht)
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20:25:20  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5956 /website/ (4 files in 2 dirs) (2006-08-19 20:25:19 UTC)
20:25:22  <DorpsGek> -Add: prepared the server-list for the upcoming network-info-version-3 (Rubidium)
20:27:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5957 /masterserver/ (misc.cpp misc.h udp.cpp) (2006-08-19 20:27:25 UTC)
20:27:29  <DorpsGek> -Add: prepared the masterserver for the upcoming network-info-version-3 (Rubidium)
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20:31:40  <TrueLight> Because of the last 2 commits, all servers not online show on the server-list ????-??-?? as game and start date
20:31:43  <TrueLight> nothing to worry about :)
20:33:27  <MaulingMonkey> Changing patch selections affects the game currently being run right?  I'm trying to narrow down the cause of this Load Command + Feeders bug which causes my trains to partially unload at the station they're loading at in the past two games I've started, which I never noticed (but supposedly exists) in 0.4.7...
20:34:03  <MaulingMonkey> (and I'm hopelessly lost when it comes to OpenTTD's workings :P)
20:38:51  <MeusH> TrueLight, where can I find more info on network-info-version-3?
20:39:18  <TrueLight> MeusH: in the 2 patches :) Hehe!
20:39:32  <TrueLight> game_date and start_date are removed in v3 (the v2 ones)
20:39:48  <TrueLight> and 2 new, uint32 ones, are added at the start of the info in v3
20:41:05  <MeusH> what is the purpose of changing it?
20:41:21  <TrueLight> past2090 preperation
20:41:46  <RPGprayer> TrueLight: When will the nightly be finished, you think?
20:42:04  <TrueLight> RPGprayer: they are for 2 hours
20:42:06  <TrueLight> even more
20:42:28  <RPGprayer> TrueLight: Agh, you said 1œ 3 hrs ago
20:42:41  <RPGprayer> TrueLight: Hehe j/k :)
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20:44:04  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5958 /masterserver/ (misc.h udp.cpp) (2006-08-19 20:44:02 UTC)
20:44:05  <DorpsGek> -Fix: OpenTTD said 15chars for revision, masterserver 10.. now they are both 15
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21:09:17  <Patrick`> if I made patches that were just extra comments, would they get accepted quickly and quietly?
21:09:26  <Patrick`> (assuming they were relevant)
21:10:37  <grimrc1> using SDL_WINDOWID you can embed openttd in another window; really strange feature of SDL!
21:11:14  <Patrick`> sounds cool
21:11:44  <grimrc1> try it; you need to use xwininfo to get the window ID of a running program (I used gcalctool); you need the hex number
21:13:35  <grimrc1> I'm trying to work out how to get openttd to work with gnome-screensaver; SDL programs won't work; I'm emerging xscreensaver now to see if that'll work
21:14:56  <Patrick`> hah, using openttd as a desktop background
21:15:13  <Patrick`> or automatically loading a little map and running it as a screensaver?
21:15:20  <grimrc1> yeah
21:15:21  <Patrick`> like the intro screen but without anything in the way
21:15:28  <TrueLight> soon I will have a tutorial alike feature
21:15:33  <TrueLight> so you can even make it move around :)
21:15:37  <MaulingMonkey> zlibstat.lib = static version of zlib?
21:15:41  <grimrc1> well!  why stop there; get a console script to connect to a full network server
21:15:43  <Patrick`> TrueLight: awesome, I remember them from the original game
21:15:49  <Patrick`> grimrc1: no, bad idea
21:15:57  <Patrick`> eats bandwidth, isn't being looked at
21:15:57  <TrueLight> Patrick`: original game?!
21:16:15  <Patrick`> yeah, I have this TTD install somewhere with 4 tutorials
21:16:24  <TrueLight> did it had tutorials?
21:16:26  <Patrick`> where the mouse pointer moves around and builds simple routes for you
21:16:27  <TrueLight> never saw them
21:16:36  <grimrc1> Patrick`: what isn't being looked at?  oh I don't mean a *full* full network server; I mean just join one with a space and spectate?
21:16:38  <Patrick`> however, the game didn't have the same random seed
21:16:47  <Patrick`> so occcasionally it would click on a newspaper about a subsidy
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21:16:58  <Patrick`> and go off target and just waggle around in the middle of nowhere trying to build
21:17:06  <hylje> :<
21:17:19  <Patrick`> grimrc1: no, I mean it'd waste bandwidth and the results would probably not even be seen
21:17:26  <Patrick`> all the servers would end up full of screensavers
21:17:34  <grimrc1> suppose that's true
21:17:50  <grimrc1> they do have spectator spots though don't they?
21:18:07  <Patrick`> I guess so ...
21:18:11  <Patrick`> but still, bad idea
21:18:24  <grimrc1> you could do the same with quake as well
21:21:52  <Patrick`> TrueLight: the tutorial will need a visual cue when ctrl is held down
21:21:58  <Patrick`> it's an important aspect
21:22:43  <TrueLight> ?
21:22:53  <Patrick`> well, for signal types.
21:23:10  <Patrick`> I'm just saying what I found lacking in the original tutorial systems
21:23:15  <Patrick`> oh, and "left click, right click"
21:23:17  <TrueLight> I don't get what you say
21:23:27  <TrueLight> oh, I think I do
21:23:35  <TrueLight> yeah, it will contain many of such things
21:23:38  <Patrick`> something that appears on the screen when you play back a tutorial, that shows you what buttons and keys the recorder is doing
21:23:41  <TrueLight> and if not, there will be plenty time for you to tell me :p
21:24:00  <TrueLight> what I did for now, is to record mouse-movement
21:24:07  <TrueLight> I expected a big burst of data
21:24:13  <TrueLight> but I reduced it to a small amount
21:24:14  <Patrick`> it's a trickle really
21:24:16  <TrueLight> without you even noticing it
21:24:31  <TrueLight> The code to record commands is already there
21:24:42  <Patrick`> from the original?
21:24:43  <TrueLight> so now I just need to record key-input (mouse-input is mostly done)
21:24:48  <TrueLight> original?
21:24:53  <Patrick`> oh, sorry, you mean you've done it
21:25:00  <TrueLight> I made, more then a year ago, a demo-patch
21:25:04  <TrueLight> recorded games totally
21:25:06  <TrueLight> and could play them back
21:25:12  <Patrick`> what happened to it ...
21:25:13  <TrueLight> but it only recorded commands in OpenTTD
21:25:17  <TrueLight> so you had to scroll around
21:25:23  <Patrick`> aaaah
21:25:32  <Patrick`> now, that could be exploited.
21:25:35  <TrueLight> and Darkvater said tons of times he was going to commit it
21:25:37  <TrueLight> he never did :p
21:25:42  <Patrick`> level an area and say "build junction 7"
21:25:51  <Patrick`> this is, of course, a bad thing.
21:25:54  <TrueLight> so I took the dust off the patch, and improving it :)
21:25:58  <MeusH> TrueLight: when mouse moving, do you record each move (which is nice and detailed, but possibly eats lots of bytes), or you can select (with keyboard) which mouse states to load and mouse pointer will move straight line to that point in a given time?
21:26:00  <Patrick`> good good
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21:26:13  <TrueLight> MeusH: it records movement
21:26:26  <TrueLight> Patrick`: playback means it loads the game attached to the demo
21:26:26  <Patrick`> MeusH: relatively it's not that much data
21:26:29  <TrueLight> so you can't exploit it
21:26:34  <Patrick`> try catting /dev/mouse some time
21:26:37  <Patrick`> or whatever it's called
21:26:41  <Patrick`> and move your mouse around
21:26:43  <MeusH> in each tick, or, say, each 10 ticks?
21:26:47  <Patrick`> it takes me maybe a minute to fill an 80x24
21:26:55  <Patrick`> that's a piffling amount of data
21:26:59  <TrueLight> Patrick`: I even record the position every X time
21:27:06  <TrueLight> I don't even check yet if it has the same value
21:27:06  <Patrick`> to synchronise
21:27:10  <TrueLight> even then, it is low on data
21:27:27  <Patrick`> record the position only at every click, it is important that those not be out of synch
21:27:36  <Patrick`> oh, and remember the random seed :)
21:28:06  <TrueLight> okay: 30ms for a tick
21:28:26  <TrueLight> every 30ms I record the position (slightly less then what OpenTTD normally does, but still below the human-eye-refresh)
21:28:34  <TrueLight> makes 30 records every second
21:28:38  <TrueLight> each taking 4 bytes
21:28:40  <TrueLight> 120 bytes a second
21:28:47  <grimrc1> what about inferring the mouse position later from the events recorded and interpolating mouse positions in-between?
21:28:47  <TrueLight> 8k every minute
21:28:50  <TrueLight> just no data at all
21:28:54  <Patrick`> yes, it's absolutely trivial amounts
21:28:56  <TrueLight> why? :)
21:28:59  <Patrick`> we're so used to things taking a lot
21:29:02  <TrueLight> for that 8k of data? :)
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21:29:23  <grimrc1> just for elegance heh
21:29:24  <Patrick`> that's up to screen resolutions of 2**16 :P
21:29:39  <Patrick`> there's literally no need to optimise something like that
21:29:49  <MeusH> oh yeah, TrueLight, how about handling different resolutions?
21:30:01  <TrueLight> the real problem comes with those things
21:30:05  <TrueLight> I record at 640x480
21:30:10  <TrueLight> and playback at 10000x10000
21:30:13  <TrueLight> where do you click :)
21:30:24  <Patrick`> relative to camera position
21:30:37  <Patrick`> so that if the screen is too small, you miss events off the edges
21:30:41  <DorpsGek> Commit by glx :: r5959 /trunk/genworld_gui.c (2006-08-19 21:30:40 UTC)
21:30:43  <DorpsGek> -Change: size selection dropdowns placement in 'Scenario type' window
21:31:01  <Patrick`> or, the mouse makes the screen move if it touches the edges
21:31:10  <MeusH> TrueLight: you shall also keep in mind that some people may have "pan window when mouse is close to edge", and others may have the toolbar on the right side instead of the left/center
21:31:15  <hylje> i'd say that the mouse has a start position and moves from it
21:31:32  <TrueLight> MeusH: remind me again when I am done :)
21:31:33  <hylje> in demo mode scroll the camera when the mouse approaches edge
21:31:35  <Patrick`> just reset all of those
21:31:44  <TrueLight> it shouldn't be any problem
21:31:45  <Patrick`> anyway, it's far from done, he says
21:31:58  <TrueLight> far is a big word
21:32:00  <TrueLight> bu tI just started yes
21:32:25  <Patrick`> anyway, who should I bug about my patch?
21:32:30  <Patrick`> or is there a queue
21:32:37  <TrueLight> there is always a queue :p
21:32:40  <TrueLight> today I won't help you
21:32:43  <TrueLight> maybe tomorrow :)
21:32:47  <MeusH> TrueLight: It may mean a total rewrite of your patch, but IMO it would be worth it - do not store all mouse moves, especially positions of clicks. How about storing an ID of clicked widget?
21:33:02  <Patrick`> (it's just a little one, but it'd be nice to get *something* into *some* OSS project other than the one I started myself that has like 2 users and one of them is me
21:33:06  <TrueLight> MeusH: why?
21:33:06  <MeusH> with stored ID of widget, there won't be problem with different resolutions
21:33:10  <glx> Patrick`: is it submitted in ?
21:33:12  <TrueLight> true
21:33:15  <TrueLight> and I maybe switch to that
21:33:18  <TrueLight> if I can't fix this nicely :)
21:33:21  <Patrick`> glx: it's in flyspray as "request for comment"
21:33:34  <Patrick`> technically it's an enhancement
21:33:36  <TrueLight> MeusH: it might be a very good idea
21:33:38  <TrueLight> dunno yet
21:33:39  <MeusH> Mouse would just "go to widget #13", "left-click", "go to blah blah"
21:33:43  <TrueLight> next week I look back into it :)
21:33:49  <Patrick`> so, um, yes, it's in
21:33:50  <MeusH> instead of "go to 700x300"
21:34:36  <Patrick`> we can brainstorm now and then let you cherry-pick what you like the look of
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21:36:11  <Patrick`> MeusH: what about construction though
21:36:17  <Patrick`> you could do it on a per-tile coordinate basis
21:36:48  <Patrick`> it's actually a whole lot easier just to do it relative to the camera center and limit the window size to at *least* 640x480
21:36:51  <MeusH> go to tile 7245
21:37:09  <Patrick`> argh ... new windows open dependant on the size
21:37:16  <MeusH> click on it's 13thx8th pixel
21:37:20  <Patrick`> but limiting it to the same resolution as the recorder is a flaw
21:37:31  <Patrick`> it wasn't an issue in the original game because the screen res was always the same
21:37:44  <MeusH> Remember that tiles have fixed sizes on all resolutions
21:38:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5960 /website/ottd_update.php (2006-08-19 21:38:07 UTC)
21:38:11  <DorpsGek> -Fix: fine-tuned the server-list update-script a bit, it performs better now
21:38:13  <Patrick`> and the widget IDs will always be the same?
21:38:17  <MeusH> so it's all about storing TileIndex and x and y of clicked pixel of the tile (for diagonal rails)
21:38:27  <Patrick`> naah, too fiddly
21:38:38  <MeusH> Patrick`, well, this may be a problem
21:38:41  <Patrick`> better to just simplify, raise up, and do as little intra-client hacking
21:38:48  <Patrick`> (as possible
21:38:54  <MeusH> Let's say these will be the same
21:39:07  <MeusH> and let's blame patchers who change widget stuff and kill the demo
21:39:15  <MeusH> anyway, demo file should be easily editable
21:39:17  <Patrick`> :P
21:39:19  <TrueLight> don't worry about cross-revisions
21:39:25  <TrueLight> with new revisions demos WILL break
21:39:29  <TrueLight> nothing you can do about that
21:39:31  <Patrick`> yes, you can always just get me to re-record them :P
21:39:32  <Patrick`> gee, thanks
21:39:40  <MeusH> so a dev may change "widget 20" to "widget 21" if he knows where to look
21:39:43  <Patrick`> maybe only for each major release
21:39:48  <TrueLight> (e.g., a command is changed in his action... shit happens :p)
21:40:55  <MeusH> lol the original map generator is awful
21:41:01  <MeusH> goodbye rectangular lakes :P
21:41:27  <Patrick`> it's authentic
21:41:42  <Patrick`> I kinda liked the one-tile valleys where they go along and then go diagonal
21:41:56  <Rubidium> Yup, with TGP you really notice how 'bad' the original landscape was
21:41:56  <Patrick`> trying to get flat land with no water was bloody impossible though
21:42:50  <grimrc1> tehehe xscreensaver FAQ: "However, the recommended fix is that you turn over the cushions in your couch, collect the spare change you find, and once you've come up with , spend it on a video card that was manufactured after 1998."
21:43:11  <Patrick`> man, I love the open source mentality
21:43:27  <grimrc1> yeah the attitude's not right; some hardware can not be replaced
21:43:27  <Patrick`> the ssh key generator gui in ubuntu: "we need a source of entropy. please bang on your keyboard like a monkey."
21:43:43  <grimrc1> Patrick`: really!?
21:43:49  <Patrick`> it might not be ubuntu
21:43:51  <Patrick`> but it's some distro
21:43:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5961 /website/includes/ (2006-08-19 21:43:50 UTC)
21:43:53  <DorpsGek> -Fix: off-by-one error for non-leap years (Rubidium)
21:44:00  <grimrc1> Patrick`: that's a joke though right??
21:44:05  <Patrick`> dunno
21:44:12  <Patrick`> probably, i heard it second-hand
21:44:20  <grimrc1> I hope so; /dev/(u?)random is better than that
21:44:21  <DorpsGek> Commit by truelight :: r5962 /masterserver/ (misc.cpp udp.cpp) (2006-08-19 21:44:20 UTC)
21:44:23  <DorpsGek> -Fix: off-by-one error for non-leap years (Rubidium)
21:44:36  <Patrick`> grimrc1: random doesn't contain nearly enough entropic bits
21:44:43  <StarLite> C++, where friends have access to your private members.
21:44:43  <StarLite> :D
21:44:46  <Patrick`> and all those entropic bits come from user input anyway
21:44:50  <grimrc1> Patrick`: and a keyboard does??
21:44:53  <Patrick`> yes.
21:45:01  <Patrick`> humans are uniquely unpredictable.
21:45:12  <grimrc1> the Linux random device has been carefully designed though
21:45:13  <Patrick`> the small bits of the intervals between keypresses are a perfect source of entropy
21:45:32  <Patrick`> I've also seen mouse wiggling used.
21:45:39  <grimrc1> and it probably uses the previous keypresses and mouse movements
21:45:41  <Patrick`> either way, it's cryptographically Random and not guessable.
21:45:44  <grimrc1> maybe it's for Windows
21:45:49  <Patrick`> no, this was on linux
21:46:43  <Patrick`> lets' say you measure someone's typing and it goes like, 20.76ms to press one key, then 8.94ms to the next one
21:46:59  <Patrick`> 7694, there's your random number
21:47:45  <grimrc1> but on the other hand the Linux random device collects much more entropy data and is less of an inconvenience
21:47:54  <Patrick`> not really.
21:48:12  <Patrick`> right now, I've not been doing any random things
21:48:20  <Patrick`> I'll exhaust my random cache, see how much was in it
21:48:29  <grimrc1> 'random cache'?
21:48:42  <Patrick`> 449 bytes
21:48:46  <Patrick`> /dev/random
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21:48:50  <Patrick`> has a small anount of entropy
21:48:56  <Patrick`> and it's only growing back as I type into ssh :)
21:48:59  <grimrc1> how did you measure it?
21:49:13  <Patrick`> dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/null
21:49:14  <grimrc1> oh that's the random device exposed by ssh?
21:49:19  <Patrick`> no.
21:49:24  <Patrick`> dd will block when the file is empty
21:49:30  <Patrick`> so I just ctrl-c out after a few seconds
21:49:38  <Patrick`> and it says 449 bytes transferred
21:49:53  <grimrc1> 0 bytes (0 B) copied, 7.7832 seconds, 0.0 kB/s
21:49:55  <grimrc1> ??
21:50:17  <Patrick`> yeah, means you've already run out of entropy
21:50:27  <grimrc1> OMG what's going on!?
21:50:32  <hylje> omg!
21:50:33  <Patrick`> anyway, ask wp
21:50:36  <grimrc1> heh
21:50:36  <Patrick`> I have tv to watch
21:50:44  <grimrc1> well urandom works
21:50:58  <Patrick`> urandom is pseudorandom
21:51:06  <grimrc1> good enough for me
21:51:06  <Patrick`> designed for lots of use
21:51:15  <Patrick`> the sort of thing you use to shred files
21:51:24  <Patrick`> or anything that's not mil-spec crypto
21:51:28  <grimrc1> the sort of thing *I* use for everything
21:51:34  <Patrick`> yeha
21:51:36  <grimrc1> heh
21:51:55  <Patrick`> random is guaranteed to be genuinely random data
21:52:09  <grimrc1> ohh
21:52:11  <grimrc1> cool
21:52:40  <Patrick`> it's carefully harvested from events that originate from either humans or quantum uncertainty
21:52:49  <TrueLight> humans and random isn't a match
21:52:54  <TrueLight> never is, never was, never will be
21:52:56  <grimrc1> yeah; but humans is controversial
21:52:57  <TrueLight> a human is far from random
21:53:08  <Patrick`> ok then, tell me how many fractions of a millisecond there are between my keypresses
21:53:11  <JohnUK89> humans are very well structured, anything with structure cannot be random
21:53:24  <grimrc1> fractions of a millisecond!?  - not many
21:53:27  <TrueLight> Patrick`: okay, let me rephrase: a human entering numbers
21:53:27  <Patrick`> with enough accurracy to crack my ssh key which I generated using those millisecond
21:53:31  <Patrick`> no, no, no
21:53:38  <Patrick`> humans typing in numbers is not random
21:53:43  <Patrick`> timed events originating in a brain
21:53:56  <TrueLight> and for the rest is matters a lot what kind of random you want/need
21:54:01  <TrueLight> one that covers all the numbers in the end
21:54:11  <TrueLight> or one that doesn't mind that
21:54:25  <Patrick`> that's why there's random and urandom
21:54:27  <JohnUK89> The human brain cannot create truly random data on its own
21:54:28  <TrueLight> For the last, the best one I found, is just noise via an attenna
21:54:49  <Patrick`> JohnUK89: that's asinine
21:54:53  <Patrick`> watch an EEG.
21:54:56  <JohnUK89> :P
21:54:59  <Patrick`> does that look predictable?
21:54:59  <grimrc1> cosmic background radiation?
21:55:04  <Patrick`> the little fluctuations?
21:55:12  <TrueLight> grimrc1: exactly :)
21:55:14  <JohnUK89> Patrick`, but is it TRULY random?
21:55:18  <Patrick`> randomness is a big science and I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about
21:55:22  <JohnUK89> Or just pseudorandom?
21:55:27  <TrueLight> although CMB (Cosmic Background Radiation) isn't really random :)
21:55:30  <Patrick`> but smarter people than I know, and they've done the hard work
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21:55:40  <grimrc1> TrueLight: sure it's not bird poo on your antenna?  that's what the scientists thought it was at first
21:55:46  <Patrick`> presumeably, if Genuinely Random Data was easy to find then there would be more than 500 bytes of it available
21:55:50  <TrueLight> I know I know
21:56:41  <grimrc1> Patrick`: yeah I get all the urandom vs random stuff, but why are people so hysterical about it?  would be solid to crack good urandom
21:57:05  <grimrc1> s/solid/impossible
21:57:11  <Patrick`> no.
21:57:13  <Patrick`> just difficult
21:57:15  <Patrick`> but possible
21:57:27  <TrueLight> "The impossible just takes a little bit longer"
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21:57:39  <grimrc1> doesn't urandom harvest entropy from keyboards and mice too?
21:57:39  <TrueLight> (quote from a big guy at MIT)
21:57:44  <Patrick`> I know security researchers, they make me paranoid
21:57:54  <grimrc1> heh
21:57:58  <Patrick`> grimrc1: urandom doesn't block by just hashing its own output to make more
21:58:20  <Patrick`> there are guys who write drivers to make the memory in computers be constantly moved around
21:58:24  <grimrc1> yeah; but how dangerous is that really going to be?  particularly if you use it sparingly
21:58:28  <Patrick`> because a source of hard radiation can burn in the bits
21:58:36  <Patrick`> so that you can take the machine apart and read what was in the RAM
21:58:40  <Patrick`> this is stuff that really happens
21:58:46  <grimrc1> wow that's interesting
21:58:52  <Patrick`> :P
21:58:57  <grimrc1> not heard that one before
21:59:09  <grimrc1> isn't the tinfoil enough?
21:59:22  <Patrick`> there are people whos job it is to be paranoid and skilled
21:59:30  <Patrick`> and assume bad people just as skilled as them exist.
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22:02:21  <grimrc1> wonder if xscreensaver will work with SDL
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22:04:36  <GoneWacko> I've been wondering how hard it would be to make bitlbee listen to songtitle changes in mpd and set those in the MSN personal message thing
22:04:58  <Patrick`> the personal message thing needs a custom branch
22:05:09  <Patrick`> all the rest is clientside scripting
22:05:42  <Wolf01> 'night all
22:05:45  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: e ricordate, per la legge di avogadro non esiste cazzo quadro]
22:07:02  <Nigel> how often are the MiniIN's built?
22:07:13  <glx> twice a week
22:07:14  <MaulingMonkey> Aha, I think I've figured this bug out!  Now all I have to do is figure out how to patch it :(
22:07:45  <Nigel> werid, because the latest i can find is 11 Aug, but oh well
22:08:10  <Nigel> i think i might just build myself
22:08:11  <TrueLight> 11 Aug are latest
22:08:22  <matthias_87> can someone look at and say something about it
22:08:31  <TrueLight> you might have noticed too, that since then, no commits have been done :p
22:08:52  <TrueLight> so building it yourself will result in the same binary
22:09:06  <Nigel> TrueLight, yes, i was unaware of the SVN revision
22:10:16  <Patrick`> matthias_87: what do you mean, "something" ?
22:11:51  <grimrc1> he means: "something about it"
22:11:57  <grimrc1> I've said it now
22:12:13  *** nlhans [] has quit []
22:12:17  <matthias_87> yes that I mean
22:22:00  <JohnUK89> Hmm this is strange...I appear to be able to download a file using wget, but downloading the same file using a package configuring script fails
22:23:13  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:26:05  <Bengoz> Are there any plans to integrate more patches to trunk, or do we have to just keep playing with MiniIn?
22:26:56  <Patrick`> ooh, miniIN
22:26:59  <Patrick`> they'll take my patch
22:27:02  <Patrick`> they take ANYTHING
22:27:08  <Eddi|zuHause> not all patches in miniin are meant to be included in trunk
22:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but trunk will get some more features before 0.5
22:29:04  <Bengoz> for example, there are some newgrf support patches
22:29:31  * MeusH thinks about semaphores before certain date by default...
22:29:41  <MeusH> why not to just commit it?
22:29:45  <MeusH> it is small and all
22:29:49  <MeusH> but it's great!
22:30:01  <JohnUK89> MeusH, why not disable electric signals before said date?
22:30:20  <Bengoz> and isn't subsidiaries patch ready to include already to 0.5? it's roadmapped to 0.6..
22:30:26  <MeusH> well some may like electric signals
22:30:30  <TrueLight> night all
22:30:34  <MeusH> but it would resemble to original game
22:30:37  <MeusH> goodnight TrueLight
22:31:51  <Mucht> thx for the fix TrueLight
22:31:55  <Mucht> gn
22:32:01  * JohnUK89 is now annoyed
22:34:06  <MeusH> Why are you annoyed JohnUK89?
22:34:58  <JohnUK89> MeusH, I spent an age downloading a package, only for the configuration to fail when it tried to download more stuff...fucking sourceforge
22:35:20  <MeusH> whoops
22:35:22  <MeusH> I hate that
22:40:22  <grimrc1> xscreensaver and gnome-screensaver don't capture openttd's graphics output; same with sdljump (another sdl game); sdl programs do take a while to start, but I doubt that's the problem
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22:57:32  <MeusH> hey hey developers... why not to take a look at ?
22:57:34  <MeusH> bye
22:57:35  <MeusH> goodnight
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23:03:02  *** Nigel [~Nigel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:03:59  <Bjarni> <Procyan> is there like 1 person on earth that knows tcl/tk and is writing all of the apps?
23:04:00  <Bjarni> <unSlider> procyan: no, there are a bunch of people who dont know tcl/tk but are writing apps for it anyway
23:04:15  <Bjarni> why does that one have TrueLight written all over it?
23:04:26  <Bjarni> :P
23:04:45  *** exe [] has joined #openttd
23:05:58  <Naksu> hey, it's true
23:06:34  <Naksu> i dont know any tcl yet i wrote multiple scripts back when i ran a small botservice :)
23:06:59  <Patrick`> so, how do I get a (small) patch into miniIN?
23:07:54  <Naksu> Patrick`: first, you must appease the gods of unstable branches
23:08:01  <Patrick`> huzzah
23:08:10  <Naksu> then, you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest... WITH A HERRING
23:08:15  <Naksu> ???
23:08:16  <Naksu> profit
23:08:30  <Naksu> (sorry)
23:09:14  <Patrick`> lawl.
23:09:27  <Patrick`> it's only like 9 lines.
23:09:31  <Patrick`> I don't really care
23:09:51  <Bjarni> what is the bug?
23:09:55  <Bjarni> err, patch?
23:10:02  <Patrick`> adds "very low" industry density
23:10:06  <Patrick`> for those giant maps
23:10:08  <Bjarni> and is it buggy? :)
23:10:17  <Naksu> it makes all ui windows green on saint pat's day
23:10:18  <Patrick`> I don't see how.
23:10:25  <Patrick`> it adds a new string though
23:10:51  <Naksu> Patrick`: then it must be vetted by the new features quality assurance triumvirate
23:11:22  <Patrick`> oh, there is one bug to do with text spilling out of a widget on the terragenesis panel
23:11:27  <Patrick`> but that's layout
23:11:40  <Patrick`> I tried to fix it but that entire panel is a mess
23:11:42  <Patrick`> (no offense)
23:15:28  <MaulingMonkey> Mmmph.  Is there some bit of code that's run the first tick a train enters the station?
23:15:46  <Rubidium> Patrick`: that is know; Belugas is writing fixes for that in his XTDwidget branch (basically extending the widgetlimit with respect to clicked/disabled states)
23:15:55  <Patrick`> cool.
23:16:00  <Patrick`> so I don't need to worry about that
23:16:03  <Bjarni> <Naksu>	i dont know any tcl yet i wrote multiple scripts back when i ran a small botservice :) <-- that sounds like my encounter with SML. I started editing code for it before I even knew what language it was. I just looked at it and picked up the idea and symtax
23:16:12  <Bjarni> it ended up working... somehow
23:16:19  <Rubidium> well, it should just work fine if you're only adding strings
23:16:46  <Patrick`> yeah
23:16:49  <Patrick`> it's in a dropdown selector
23:17:55  <Naksu> Bjarni: i also did extensive eScript-scripting for POL (an UO server emulator) and the only way to learn it is by reading the code and quessing :)
23:18:17  <glx> Patrick`: your patch need to be safe for older savegames
23:18:58  <Patrick`> glx: well, it's safea
23:19:09  <Patrick`> it's just a bit blipp
23:19:14  <Naksu> also, the eScript compiler gave the best compiler error messages
23:19:24  <Patrick`> it won't take anything out of range... I don't know how to fix it though
23:19:34  <Patrick`> perhaps a specific converter for older savegames?
23:19:37  <Bjarni> Naksu: SML is function orientated. In scripting/coding, you write how to do stuff (a = func), but in SML, you write what to do, not how to do it
23:19:47  <Bjarni> very different and confusing at first
23:19:57  <glx> Patrick`: yes a savegame version bump, and on load converter
23:20:14  <Patrick`> ah, a version bump for something so small
23:20:27  <Naksu> "Your syntax frightens and confuses me." and "WAAHHH!" are two things i never want to see a compiler say
23:20:35  <Patrick`> it doesn't actually need a version bump
23:20:43  <Naksu> luckily those two were very rare
23:20:58  <Patrick`> oh, sorry, it does
23:21:05  <Patrick`> damnnit ... such a simple patch
23:21:21  <glx> yeah playing with settings is a pain :)
23:21:34  <Patrick`> hmm
23:21:38  <Bjarni> <Pikapi> but microsoft doesn't sell windows for macintosh? <-- LOL
23:21:53  <Patrick`> Bjarni: they don't forbid installs on mac hardware
23:21:55  <Bjarni> except now it's true for XP SP2 and MacIntels
23:21:59  <Patrick`> (intel macs)
23:22:14  <Bjarni> this quote predates MacIntels
23:22:23  <Patrick`> glx: so is it even worth it? what would you recommend I do
23:22:27  <Patrick`> to see if people care enough
23:22:35  <Bjarni> in short: they don't make windows for big endian systems
23:24:30  <JohnUK89> Isn't ARM big-endian?
23:24:38  <JohnUK89> They make Windows Mobile for that :-D
23:24:43  <Patrick`> ooh, snap
23:24:43  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:24:46  <Patrick`> the guy has a point
23:24:54  <Naksu> it's a windows in name only i believe
23:25:26  <JohnUK89> They also make Windows XP Embedded...
23:25:45  <Naksu> JohnUK89: which is meant for tablet pcs
23:26:00  <JohnUK89> Yeah...small
23:26:34  <JohnUK89> small = little or whatever the term is :)
23:27:13  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
23:27:31  <glx> Patrick`: it's impossible to know what was the meaning of the difficulty value without a bump
23:27:34  <Naksu> one thing i liked in escript was foreach()
23:27:50  <glx> Patrick`: maybe someone else will have an idea
23:28:01  <Patrick`> glx: true.
23:28:27  <Patrick`> I feel like a bump isn't worth it
23:28:37  <Patrick`> for such a small patch in terms of functionality as well as code
23:29:44  <Rubidium> Patrick`: another option is to 'misuse' someone else's savegame bump, so your using a savegame bump, but you're actually not doing it
23:30:23  <Patrick`> yeah
23:30:28  <Patrick`> but synchronising it will be hard
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23:30:36  <Patrick`> and even still there's no guarantee it'd get committed
23:30:51  <Patrick`> for such a small patch though ... and I don't think anyone would argue it's *bad*
23:30:59  <Patrick`> still, I got some practice in the code
23:31:16  <Patrick`> what's the default behaviour on load when a value is out of range?
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23:31:22  <glx> it's easier to add a value than insert one
23:31:41  <Patrick`> yeah, this had to be sequentially in the position it's in :/
23:32:16  <Patrick`> or ... maybe ...
23:32:27  <Patrick`> no, won't work
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23:56:04  <JohnUK89> Oh Noes!
23:57:17  *** grimrc1 [] has joined #openttd
23:57:22  <grimrc1> rehi all
23:57:36  <grimrc1> radeonfb crash
23:58:03  <Patrick`> you were gone?
23:58:13  <Patrick`> (burn)
23:59:07  <grimrc1> I think I know how to get openttd to run as a screensaver; you just use SDL_WINDOWID env variable; the annoying part is getting hold of the windowid for the current root window (virtual root window) when xscreensaver is running; anybody happen to know of a utility that'll print that out to stdout or something?

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