Log for #openttd on 1st November 2006:
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00:00:58  <Sacro> :o netsplittage
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00:27:20  <Born_Acorn> Sacro, netsplits on this network? No.. the servers are just having emotional difficulties.
00:27:33  <Sacro> Born_Acorn: PMT?
00:27:39  <Born_Acorn> Yes.
00:28:50  <Ailure> Servers are cutting their network cables?
00:29:17  <Sacro> emo irc
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00:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause> who's taking bets that he listened to emo music and then killed himself? :p
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04:06:01  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7029 /branches/MiniIN/vehicle.c: [MiniIN] -Fix: assertion on loading recent trunk savegames.
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05:58:33  <amix> hello
05:58:44  <amix> wondering how to get the cities to grow?
05:58:46  <amix> :)
06:04:27  <PandaMojo> transport their population
06:05:50  <amix> oki
06:05:57  <amix> dosent help :)
06:06:13  <amix> not allways
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06:20:41  <amix> on the desert level
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06:20:50  <amix> the city which i tried to grow
06:20:58  <amix> started to shrink instead
06:21:13  <amix> admin tried to add some passenger busses there aswell
06:21:20  <amix> but still it fell down
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06:26:09  <MiHaMiX> amix: are you supplying water and food to the town?
06:29:00  <amix> yes
06:29:05  <amix> :)
06:29:12  <amix> thats what so strange
06:29:34  <amix> another town which i really didnt want to grow, got over 1000
06:29:51  <amix> while this one dropped down from 1000 to 810
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06:29:54  <amix> ;)
06:33:18  <MiHaMiX> amix: maybe there are massive building reconstructions? I mean, if way too many new buildings are raised, that's temporarily decreases the town population
06:34:12  <amix> ohh?
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08:36:17  <amix> -7C here right now
08:36:18  <amix> good morning :)
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08:41:44  <peter1138> brrr
08:41:56  * peter1138 attempts to warm up
08:41:56  <Prof_Frink> fnarrr
08:42:09  * Prof_Frink has tea
08:42:14  * Prof_Frink wins
08:42:17  <peter1138> i put the coffee on
08:42:21  * peter1138 waits
08:42:55  <Prof_Frink> Of course, if it were Hogs Back T.E.A. it would be even better
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08:47:58  <amix> :)
08:48:08  <Stormcape> rawr
08:48:25  <Stormcape> Everyone calls me crazy for running mIRC in Slackware
08:49:21  <Prof_Frink> Stormcape: I'd be one of them.
08:49:40  <amix> i am running xchat aqua now
08:49:52  <Stormcape> I don't like Xchat or irssi. Not my type of IRC client
08:50:02  <Stormcape> xchat makes me mad
08:50:21  <Prof_Frink> Oh, not the mIRC part, I'd call you crazy for running Slackware ;)
08:50:26  <Stormcape> lol
08:50:37  <amix> thats not good
08:50:39  <amix> hehe
08:50:44  <amix> i actually run amirc mostly
08:50:45  <Stormcape> I was crazy for thinking Fedora Core 6 woul be good
08:50:52  <Stormcape> it nearly wrecked my computer
08:50:56  <Stormcape> so I switched to Slackware 11
08:50:56  <amix> xchat is the next best thing for me
08:51:03  <Stormcape> 1 day of configuration later I was done
08:51:15  <Darkvater> morning
08:51:21  <Stormcape> morning
08:51:32  <Prof_Frink> Well, seeing as I IRC from Croydon, but am in Wimborne, Dorset, irssi is the obvious choice ;)
08:51:45  <Stormcape> Well, ya, for you
08:51:59  <Stormcape> I'm gonna see what happens when I run DarkEngine
08:52:04  <Stormcape> the mIRC script
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08:52:20  <Stormcape> 4 quatloos says mIRC will violently crash, taking down wine with it
08:52:33  <Darkvater> mirc is crap
08:52:51  <Darkvater> there, my contribution to today's discussion
08:53:25  <Stormcape> so far DE is working
08:53:32  <Stormcape> time to try a "Operating System" command
08:53:35  <Stormcape> Operating System: Win2K Professional 5.0 Service Pack 4 (Build #2195)
08:53:37  <Stormcape> :O
08:53:45  <Stormcape> It read Wine's config perfectly
08:54:12  <amix> mirc makes people say mirc instead of irc
08:54:17  <amix> thats annoying
08:54:18  <amix> ;P
08:54:49  <Prof_Frink> "Yeah, join this mirc channel"
08:54:58  <Stormcape> That' what I don't like about mirc
08:55:01  <Prof_Frink> Aaaargh *thwack* *thunk*
08:55:06  <Stormcape> it makes some people stupid
08:55:16  <Prof_Frink> And doesn't have perl support
08:55:16  <Stormcape> I like mIRC cause I've used it for 5 years and am used to it
08:55:51  <peter1138> irssi++
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09:07:23  <Darkvater> that was a conversation killer
09:07:29  <Darkvater> *undo* irssi++
09:08:59  <peter1138> $ svn merge -r 4172:HEAD
09:09:00  <peter1138> hee
09:09:08  <peter1138> that should be fun ;p
09:10:37  <Darkvater> you're missing the branch Ithink :)
09:11:26  <peter1138> only 8 conflicted files
09:11:38  <peter1138> but a lot of "skipping missing target"
09:11:43  <peter1138> which is strange
09:11:46  <peter1138> of course it's missing...
09:18:06  <Ailure> online exams is wooh
09:18:13  <Darkvater> what are you trying to merge?
09:18:27  <peter1138> cargo-packets :D
09:18:36  <peter1138> i saw it there and wondered
09:18:43  <peter1138> i've reverted and ignored it now ;p
09:19:00  <Darkvater> ah
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09:32:31  <Darkvater> OT: I'm not aware of any (documented?) way to overwrite the sprites that Open loads directly from autorail.grf, airport.grf, and openttd.grf, with the possible exception of the character glyphs in openttd.grf. Action A sprite numbers above the TTD sprite space would be immediately compliant, and I expect Patchman would be willing give out as many action 5 types as are necessary.
09:32:48  <Darkvater> that would mean check-for-openttd and only then do actionA, right?
09:32:59  <Darkvater>
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09:37:21  <Brianetta> Is the check necessary?
09:37:52  <Brianetta> Surely the OpenTTD specific  ActionA type5 would just be a NOP on Patch
09:37:58  <peter1138> what?
09:38:12  <Darkvater> well I think it is because in TTDP you cannot reserve sprites that are above the normal range. Donnu what TTDP does with it though
09:38:27  <Brianetta> They might get an autorail tool (:
09:38:34  <Brianetta> Then the same overrides will work
09:39:04  <peter1138> oh well
09:39:16  <peter1138> i implemented feature 08 more simply then
09:39:45  <Darkvater> I envy peter1138 ;). GRF support, or externalization in general, is the most exciting part of openttd development :)
09:40:05  <Brianetta> Is autopilot external enough? (-:
09:40:24  <Darkvater> :)
09:41:34  <Darkvater> I wonder though if it's actually worth it to move all the vehicle-tables out from the executable if you can customize it anyway with grf-coding
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09:43:22  * Darkvater also wonders if something'll ever happen to a humanly-readable (XML?) format of newgrf specs
09:43:30  <Darkvater> perhaps once 32bpp is finished...
09:44:31  <Darkvater> (sLomo style)
09:44:48  <peter1138> i for one wouldn't fancy writing it in xml ;p
09:44:54  <DaleStan> I've never had any trouble reading the specs.
09:45:17  <DaleStan> </intentional_misinterpretation>
09:45:50  <peter1138> Darkvater: problem then is 1) depending on newgrfs 2) not all sets will set every value they should
09:46:01  <peter1138> (re: moving the data out)
09:46:11  <peter1138> DaleStan: yes, but you're intelligent :)
09:46:25  <peter1138> you also know what does what
09:46:42  <Darkvater> peter1138: you wouldn't be writing it :)
09:46:54  <Darkvater> << this working for anyone?
09:46:59  <Darkvater> can't get the left side loaded
09:47:00  <peter1138> i wouldn't?
09:47:01  <peter1138> heh
09:47:16  <peter1138> i coded Born_Acorn's waypoints to help understand it
09:47:21  <peter1138> s/it/newstations/
09:49:25  <Brianetta> waypoints rock.
09:49:57  <Brianetta> Would it be possible to have the waypoints appear as newstations as well as as waypoints?
09:50:01  * Brianetta re-parses...
09:50:06  <Brianetta> yep, that's what I meant
09:50:24  <Brianetta> Then they can be used Patch-style as well
09:50:32  <Brianetta> giving multi-line waypoints
09:50:35  <peter1138> well yes
09:50:46  <peter1138> it's just a gui restriction
09:51:01  <roboboy> that would be good
09:51:05  <Brianetta> It might be easier than real multi-line waypoints (:
09:51:45  <peter1138> rail_gui.c:809
09:51:56  <peter1138> replace "1 << STAT_CLASS_WAYP" with "0"
09:53:43  <DaleStan> "... immediately compliant, and I expect ..." <-- I guess I should have said "... immediately compliant. Alternatively, I expect ..."
09:54:09  <peter1138> hmm?
09:54:30  <DaleStan> Re changing the Open-specific sprites.
09:54:33  <peter1138> ah
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09:54:54  <Darkvater> peter1138: 1) why is that a format? It's not newgrf that is a problem. It already implements (almost) every conceivable variadic variable. Of course it would be stupid to rewrite the whole parsing and setup again for XML so the original idea of XML > NewGRF > OpenTTD should be good. 2) so? It is not prohibited to not set all values
09:55:53  <DaleStan> 2) But what values do you fall back to if no GRF sets that particular value?
09:56:08  <Darkvater> whatever value we fall back to now
09:56:28  <Darkvater> even now not all newgrf sets set all possible values
09:56:30  <Darkvater> or...
09:56:37  <Darkvater> are we talking about different things?
09:56:44  <DaleStan> But I thought you were planning to remove those values from the executable.
09:57:02  <Darkvater> ah yes
09:57:26  <Darkvater> well all a very basic vehicle needs is sprites,type,introduction,speed,weight, whatever
09:57:30  <Darkvater> some basic values
09:57:47  <Darkvater> without that it is not valid, so that needs enforcing
09:59:49  <Darkvater> or am I seeing some things too simply? Imho externalize vehicle/industry/whatever data with the values which are now in there. Then people can tinker with them at will...and well if they remove crucial values (such as weight) it's their own fault (assuming the XML > NewGRF compiler doesn't catch this)
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10:01:01  <peter1138> dalestan, isn't action 5 all or nothing?
10:01:41  <DaleStan> All or nothing for each type, yes.
10:01:46  <peter1138> so you could replace openttd.grf, but only all of it
10:01:50  <peter1138> actually that wouldn't work
10:01:54  <peter1138> becuase openttd.grf is indexed
10:01:57  <peter1138> hmm
10:02:18  <DaleStan> Depends on how many types you split openttd.grf into.
10:02:53  <peter1138> hmm
10:03:09  <DaleStan> And, as Patchman mentioned a while ago, you could add a subtype byte (or anything else that suits your fancy) anywhere after the type byte.
10:03:19  <peter1138> hmm, that's true
10:03:57  <peter1138> if (type == replace openttd.grf) next byte = start, next byte = count
10:03:58  <peter1138> or something
10:05:25  <DaleStan> Darkvater: "Their own fault" is a good way to get annoying bug reports unless decent and well-documented error messages are issued.
10:05:28  <peter1138> well anyway, i've had no requests for it :)
10:07:44  <Darkvater> DaleStan: the XML>NewGRF program asserts that at least the minimal properties are set
10:08:49  <peter1138> xml -> var action 2 :o
10:09:02  <Darkvater> :)
10:09:06  <DaleStan> But neither grfcodec nor nforenum do.
10:09:37  <Darkvater> the question is of course if it is possible to write an XML format as powerful as the current GRF-language
10:09:48  <Brianetta> yes
10:09:54  <DaleStan> I'm not convinced its impossible.
10:10:12  <Brianetta> I can bring an example
10:10:13  * Darkvater also has doubts
10:10:27  <DaleStan> it's*
10:10:43  <Darkvater> most things can be done, but the arithmetic, turing-machine..hard
10:11:08  <peter1138> it is possible
10:11:11  <peter1138> it would be a lot larger
10:11:21  <peter1138> but then that's what you get for verbosity :)
10:11:36  <Darkvater> I wonder...does GRFMaker support this?
10:11:47  <Darkvater> or it also sticks to the "basic" stuff
10:14:24  <DaleStan> <hearsay> GRFMaker supports the basic NFO stuff: byte-sized var2s without calculations, all varaction2 variables, but not the more complex stuff.
10:14:51  <DaleStan> It does, however, permit the direct insertion of arbitrary NFO code. </hearsay>
10:15:56  <Darkvater> I see
10:16:00  * peter1138 ponders XML <> GRF
10:16:15  <Darkvater> the XML idea might die at an early age then
10:16:17  <peter1138> <?xml>
10:16:21  <peter1138> <root>
10:16:29  <DaleStan> Szappy, WhiteHand, and Aegir are the GRFMaker experts.
10:16:31  <peter1138> <data>xx xx xx xx xx xx xx .. .. ..</data>
10:16:34  <peter1138> ;)
10:16:38  <peter1138> oh
10:16:40  <peter1138> and </root>
10:16:41  <Darkvater> <data>00 5F 01 FF 56 B0 73</data?
10:16:43  <Darkvater> dammit
10:16:53  <Darkvater> I was typing the same thing :O
10:16:55  <peter1138> stupid thing
10:17:00  <peter1138> i've *seen* xml that looks like that
10:17:03  <peter1138> it's... well, pointless
10:17:30  <peter1138> i've seen an "xml" file that contains <foo>etc etc</foo>\n original data
10:17:37  <Darkvater> obviously..unless it's humanly readable and understandable (by the likes of let's say MeusH) it's pointless
10:18:43  * DaleStan contemplates decoding the sprite dwords in bridge action 0s and house/industry tile action 2s.
10:19:00  <peter1138> yup
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10:19:18  <Darkvater> the pillar-magic?
10:19:18  <DaleStan> Oh. Station action 0s, too.
10:19:20  <peter1138> wouldn't really mean much in XML
10:19:28  * Darkvater has done that for eh...certain bridges
10:19:42  <peter1138> newstatsw is great to decode
10:20:10  <Prof_Frink> peter1138: mb is a nutcase
10:20:15  <peter1138> 1yes
10:20:20  <peter1138> but his artwork is nice
10:20:38  <DaleStan> AIUI, he uses perl to generate those monstrosities.
10:20:55  <peter1138> yeah, i heard that
10:20:59  <peter1138> then i considered
10:21:03  <peter1138> it's probably just as bad in perl
10:21:28  <Darkvater> :O tell me more juicy MB stories
10:22:00  <Darkvater> what's so bad about newstatsw, why nutcase, perl for what?
10:22:11  * Darkvater jumps up and down with excitement
10:22:22  <Prof_Frink> Darkvater: newstatsw is something like 99% action0
10:22:22  <DaleStan> The 55+ KB pseudo-sprites.
10:23:12  <peter1138>    34 * 58269
10:23:13  <peter1138> yum
10:23:48  <peter1138> 46% of the nfo file gets you to pseudo sprite 39
10:23:51  <Prof_Frink> brain asplosion?
10:24:14  <peter1138> there are 4189 sprites (including pseudos) in total
10:24:19  <Darkvater> :O
10:24:38  <Darkvater> action0 (for stations) is just a hex-encoded sprite right?
10:24:44  <peter1138> no
10:24:54  <peter1138> it's tile layouts
10:24:58  <Brianetta>
10:25:00  <peter1138> offsets and sprite sizes
10:25:09  <peter1138> think DrawTileSeqStruct
10:25:15  <Brianetta> That thread has a zip file linked in the first post.  It is a script for the game, X2.
10:25:19  <Brianetta> It's an XML file.
10:25:30  <Brianetta> The original script text can be read with the aid of a stylesheet
10:25:32  <peter1138> (it is exactly that, with some extra bits in the sprite id to identify custom/standard graphics etc)
10:25:50  <Darkvater> ah ic
10:26:04  * roboboy wants to use acronym finder but it doesnt work any more
10:26:11  <Brianetta>  <-- The stylesheet is here
10:26:21  <Brianetta> It has a bug which makes it fail in Firefox, but
10:26:38  <Brianetta>
10:26:40  <Brianetta> has the fix
10:27:32  <Brianetta> It's fine in IE
10:27:34  <Brianetta> of course
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10:27:40  <Brianetta> because IE is error-tolerant
10:28:03  <peter1138> there's error-tolerant and error-ignorant
10:28:49  * DaleStan shudders to think what sprite 34 of NewStats would look like in XML.
10:28:59  <DaleStan> Specifically, how long it would be.
10:29:07  <peter1138> :)
10:29:58  * peter1138 notes that the way nfo works is not really compatible with xml anyway
10:30:22  <peter1138> well, for action 0 anyway
10:30:43  <peter1138> 1 action 0 can set multiple properties of multiple entities
10:31:15  <DaleStan> Well, barring the multiple-entities part, I would think that action 0 would be one of the most XML-like parts of NFO.
10:31:17  <Darkvater> you would need a change of mentality about how to do all the features since a simple one-on-one mapping would be kinda moot for the 'advanced' features
10:31:30  <peter1138> with xml you'd want an entity -> property layout
10:31:52  <peter1138> DaleStan, true
10:32:00  <peter1138> otoh, many grfs only set one entity at a time anyway
10:32:17  <Brianetta> There needs to be an nfo action for a house that occurs when you build a railway too near to it.  It lodges a formal complaint with the local authority, puts protest posters in the window and so on.
10:32:17  <peter1138> you get bigger newgrf files then though
10:32:39  <peter1138> heh
10:33:07  <Brianetta> nimby.grf
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10:35:44  <DaleStan> <peter1138> 46% of the nfo file gets you to pseudo sprite 39 <-- That's by lines. By bytes, it's 58%
10:37:10  <peter1138> ouch
10:40:54  <roboboy> yey i can now get all the little things ff doesnt support that ie does in the one browser
10:42:08  <Tron> all this grf stuff has one central flaw: it's aimed at replacement
10:42:33  <peter1138> not all of it
10:42:43  <Tron> you don't specify a new vehicle. instead you change some values here, some values there
10:42:48  <peter1138> stations aren't :)
10:43:02  <peter1138> houses, cargos and industries aren't either, afaik
10:43:09  <peter1138> it's just those pesky vehicles
10:43:41  <roboboy> thats what exe gfx were for, we are slowly moving away from it
10:43:50  <peter1138> (and i have a patch that changes that)
10:43:55  <DaleStan> Well, cargoes and industries are replacements, but the available space is enormously larger than what TTD uses.
10:44:05  <roboboy> even airports in patch will be new airports
10:44:38  <peter1138> DaleStan: there are no "defaults" left over from standard definitions though, are there?
10:44:53  <DaleStan> And anyway, there's precedent in place that allows for up to at least 65535 entities for any given feature.
10:44:55  <Darkvater> Tron: the problem is not replacement, but how to code such things as station-layout, arithmetic, etc.
10:45:18  <Tron> of course it's a problem
10:45:43  <Tron> moving the internally coded vehicle data into external files isn't that hard
10:46:04  <Darkvater> only a tiny part of the newgrf spec handles replacement (which sprite to use, what ID's to steal)
10:46:12  <Tron> just put all the properties of one vehicle in a simple file (mostly key-value-pairs)
10:46:22  <Tron> just add more specification files for more vehicles
10:46:30  <DaleStan> peter1138: Depends. Some cargo slots have special features by default. Industries are independent, but properties can be copied from an existing industry.
10:46:45  <peter1138> 's true
10:46:55  <Tron> but grf vehicles specifically aim at replacement
10:47:02  <Tron> change property X of vehicle Y
10:47:06  <peter1138> argh, fucking excel
10:47:08  <Tron> it's even 90° turned around
10:47:28  <Tron> change property X of vehicles Y till Z to a, b, c, ...
10:47:46  <peter1138> it's flexible ;)
10:47:53  <Tron> it's unusable
10:48:01  <peter1138> you can do multiple properties for one vehicle in a single go too
10:48:15  <Tron> with this restriction you practically can't move the default data out of the game
10:48:25  <DaleStan> Tron: How does this one-file per vehicle thing accommodate such nice things as MUs and vehicle sets?
10:48:42  <Darkvater> that is only a "problem" with the current newgrf projects. if you make replacement vehicle that changes ALL properties of a default vehicle then it might as well be a new vehicle, just give it a new ID
10:48:49  <Tron> DaleStan: where's the problem?
10:49:04  <Tron> it hasn't strictly to be one vehicle per file
10:49:12  <Tron> a file could specify multiple vehicles
10:49:13  <Darkvater> the problem Tron is seeing is that if the vehicle data is externalized the existing newgrf vehicle replacements would seize to work when those default vahicles aren't loaded
10:49:24  <peter1138> cease
10:49:30  <peter1138> yeah
10:49:31  <DaleStan> Filling up the purchase list with fifteen different passenger cars, one for the daylight, and another for the sunset, and another for the the Doodlebug, &c. just seems like a step backwards.
10:49:31  <Tron> Darkvater: yes, at the very least you need a preprocessor
10:49:32  <Darkvater> seizure
10:49:41  <Tron> something which reads and interprets a grf file
10:49:42  <Darkvater> yes, cease :)
10:49:46  <Tron> checks what got changed
10:49:53  <peter1138> many sets do replace every value, but it's not mandatory
10:49:54  <Tron> and writes out modified vehicles as a whole
10:50:09  * PandaMojo seizes Darkvater's pants, hoping it will cease his seizure
10:50:48  <Darkvater> I see these issues as minor compared to coming up with a good enough XML (let's stick to this for now) spec that can do all that newgrf does now
10:50:48  <Tron> DaleStan: can you come up with a sensible example, i can't follow your line of reasoning
10:50:59  <Tron> XML is totally unsuitable
10:51:08  <DaleStan> The USSet, since it is one file, knows with absolute certainty what the passenger car is called, and can use the same one for all three.
10:51:16  <Tron> most stuff are simple key value pairs
10:51:44  <Tron> and in order to use an XML format you need a special editor
10:51:51  <DaleStan> Like notepad?
10:51:53  <Tron> then you can as well stick to a binary format
10:52:05  <Tron> DaleStan: XML is not human editable
10:52:24  <Tron> it has way to much pointless syntax to keep track of
10:52:47  <roboboy> its easyer than nfo
10:52:53  <Tron> also the signal/noise (i.e. content/syntax) ratio is below 50%
10:53:09  <Darkvater> it's better editable then NFO files are; but granted special editors will be very welcome
10:53:13  <DaleStan> Easier to write? or easier to read?
10:53:29  <Brianetta> Tron: An advantage is that with a good stylesheet, a given XML file can be made human readable with nothing more than a browser
10:53:58  <Darkvater> the question then arises if you need an editor anyways to 'translate' if it should be in XML at all and why not in NFO ala GRFMakker
10:53:59  <Tron> that's nonesense
10:54:17  <Brianetta> I gave examples earlier
10:54:29  <Tron> the moment you add context sensitive information no style sheet can help you
10:54:36  <Tron> because they are strictly context free
10:54:38  <peter1138> Darkvater: grfmaker has it's own format, iirc
10:54:44  <DaleStan> GRFMaker uses an proprietary .LST format.
10:55:06  <Darkvater> WTF? The current goverment in Holland is dead, they have stepped down, yet they decide to liberalize the rents on houses 1 month before elections?
10:55:13  <Darkvater> goddamn fc8king assholes
10:55:59  <Darkvater> why would GRFMaker do that? They need to decode AND encode NFO, so why even create your own format?
10:56:03  <Darkvater> sounds totally pointless to me
10:56:19  <Darkvater> is it at least binary? :)
10:56:21  <peter1138> i don't think it can read nfo
10:56:27  <peter1138> it is binary
10:56:27  <Tron>  <DaleStan> The USSet, since it is one file, knows with absolute certainty what the passenger car is called, and can use the same one for all three. <--- ?
10:57:12  <DaleStan> Have you ever played with the USSet?
10:57:26  <Tron> no
10:57:35  <Darkvater> peter1138: ah..that's a bummer; makes it less useful
10:58:34  <DaleStan> Well, it has, among other things, this thing called a "passenger car". It also has engines named the Doodlebug, the Daylight, and the Sunset.
10:58:57  *** Stormcape [] has quit []
10:59:51  <DaleStan> If you build a passenger car, and attach it to a Doodlebug, it'll look one way. If you take that exact same passenger car, and attach it to a Daylight instead, it'll have the Daylight livery. If you then move it to a Sunset, it'll acquire the Sunset livery.
11:00:16  <peter1138> ahh, features that locomotion could do with
11:00:25  <Tron> nice, but this only works if there's exactly one big train set and nothing else
11:00:37  <Tron> say i want to playe a game with a map of france and germany
11:00:46  <Tron> i have the TGV set and this ICE set
11:01:29  <Brianetta>
11:01:33  <Tron> given they use differnt IDs for the locs, but the same for the passenger coach, whichever i have further down in the list wins the fight over the passenger coach
11:01:34  <DaleStan> If the Sunset, for example, had no guarantee that the generic USSet passenger car was loaded, it would have to load its own. The same for the Daylight and the Doodlebug.
11:01:41  <Brianetta> Murder in the building next door to my home
11:01:46  <peter1138> actually it doesn't have to
11:01:57  <peter1138> there's an override list
11:02:19  <peter1138> the tgv will get its wagon override
11:02:30  <peter1138> the ice will get its own too
11:02:50  <Tron> i have a bad headache now
11:03:01  <peter1138> hmm
11:03:02  <Tron> this is so much pointless complexity
11:03:08  <peter1138> but it's still the same carriage
11:03:22  <Tron> what if they have different sizes?
11:03:23  <peter1138> so if the properties will be set by the last one
11:03:25  <Tron> buying  costs?
11:03:25  <peter1138> yeah
11:03:31  <peter1138> you're right there
11:04:00  <DaleStan> But the override can override the callbacks.
11:05:13  <DaleStan> So such things as length, visual effect, &c. are controlled by the GRF that contains the engine, not the last GRF to write to that vehicle slot.
11:06:08  *** Belugas_Gone [~Jfranc@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:06:23  <Tron> how does it determine the price when paying?
11:07:04  <DaleStan> Last-to-write.
11:07:37  <Tron> so it doesn't work
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11:09:04  <roboboy> gnight
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11:10:49  <Darkvater> ok can anyone tell me why IE reloads a page when I resize the window?
11:10:50  <Darkvater> gaah
11:11:01  <peter1138> hmm
11:11:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i do not think the idea of using the same passenger car for multiple vehicle sets will ever work
11:11:07  <peter1138> that's an old NN4 trick
11:11:55  <Eddi|zuHause> for example the DBSetXL has 3 completely different passenger cars
11:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause> plus a dozen livery overrides
11:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't imagine a way to unify these, let alone fit passenger cars of other sets in there
11:17:49  <DaleStan> Tron: Are you advocating splitting the three passenger cars that Eddi|zuHause is discussing into three dozen, so that each override is instead a separate vehicle, and there are three dozen "passenger car" entries in the purchase list? Or am I misunderstanding you?
11:18:35  <Tron> i just stated that your scheme doesn't work in general
11:18:57  <Tron> also i stated that it's no problem to have several vehicles in one description file
11:19:07  <Tron> or call it "set" if you want to
11:19:40  <Tron> btw: grfcodes has some strange bugs
11:20:04  <Tron> if you add new sprites and the sprites are close together in the picture, it does /strange/ things
11:20:20  <DaleStan> That's not a bug report.
11:20:29  <Tron> like starting in the wrong line of the sprite
11:20:43  <DaleStan> An NFO file and a PCX file would constitute a bug report.
11:20:55  <Tron> i'm just digging for it
11:20:57  <Tron> so be patient
11:21:12  <Tron> i can't do multiple things at once
11:21:27  <peter1138> not a woman :)
11:21:34  <peter1138> isn't that and older bug that was fixed?
11:21:38  <DaleStan> But first, what version of grfcodec?
11:21:56  <peter1138> *an
11:21:58  <Tron> r1171
11:22:11  <peter1138> hmm
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11:24:12  <Darkvater> I do know grfcoded doesn't like sprites that are on uneven coordinates
11:25:26  <DaleStan> Oh, and it's not my "scheme". It's Patchman's. No far pawning off a format you don't like onto a mere mortal.
11:25:47  <Tron> huh?
11:25:51  <Tron> what's your problem?
11:26:02  <Tron> i just stated a simple fact why it doesn't work in general
11:29:13  <DaleStan> You said "your scheme". It isn't mine, and I won't accept either credit or blame for its powers or weaknesses. It's "NFO", "that scheme", "patchman's scheme", &c. It is not "DaleStan's scheme."
11:29:40  <Tron> go whining to you language lawyer
11:30:00  * Darkvater officially flags this discussion as moot
11:30:09  <Darkvater> now; who wants a cookie?
11:30:12  <peter1138> yes please
11:30:12  <DaleStan> I feel like (But maybe I'm just projecting something that I'd do onto you.) you're trying to make yourself feel better about not liking it by separating the language from its creator.
11:30:32  * Darkvater gives peter1138 a cookie
11:30:38  * Darkvater shoves a cookie down DaleStan's throat
11:30:56  <Darkvater> would Polly, eh Tron want some too?
11:31:07  * DaleStan hopes he is finished.
11:31:18  * DaleStan eats the cookie.
11:32:21  <Tron> do you have some kind of problem? i don't "feel better" or whatever, i simply stated a shortcoming/problem/call-it-what-you-want-but-not-feel-better
11:32:48  * Darkvater shakes the cookie threateningly
11:33:57  * peter1138 knows a bloke who's nickname is cookie
11:33:57  <Tron> afk, cooking
11:34:03  <Darkvater> and now...alas I must be off to eat myself
11:34:04  <peter1138> he's 6'9"
11:34:09  <peter1138> eat yourself? that's perverted
11:34:20  <Darkvater> peter1138: you met him in jail...shower?
11:34:46  * Darkvater pictures a big black block with a some heavy fur and a big smile
11:35:00  <Darkvater> bloke even
11:35:03  <peter1138> lol
11:35:11  <peter1138> no ;p
11:35:19  <DaleStan> Yes, I do have a problem. I would think that would be obvious by now. I'm at least thrice insane (for coding in NFO, for writing NFORenum, and for patch coding) for one.
11:35:39  <Darkvater> my most embarassing english mistake was when I typed 'box' instead of 'bucks'
11:35:58  <Darkvater> << food
11:36:27  <peter1138> DaleStan: all you need now is to write some stations
11:36:49  <peter1138> i'd like to point out that the waypoints i coded are very simple and don't have 55KB pseudo sprites :)
11:43:51  <peter1138> comment from one of our webdevs: "what's a bmp file?"
11:43:54  <peter1138> o_O
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11:55:52  <Prof_Frink> peter1138: I feel he was being sarcastic
11:56:18  <peter1138> no
11:56:31  <peter1138> he's a fuckwit
11:59:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure he has 20 years of experience in web development ;)
12:00:49  <peter1138> 20 minutes perhaps
12:01:18  <DaleStan> "professional" == "I get paid to do this". Competence is neither implied nor guaranteed.
12:06:11  <peter1138> hmm
12:06:18  <peter1138> first run:
12:06:24  <peter1138> dbg: [GRF] Scanning for NewGRFs
12:06:29  <peter1138> Wed Nov  1 12:07:50 GMT 2006
12:06:29  <peter1138> Wed Nov  1 12:07:52 GMT 2006
12:06:33  <peter1138> dbg: [GRF] Scan complete, found 41 files
12:06:52  <peter1138> bit slow, not to mention system("date") is a stupid way to get the time ;p
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12:08:44  <peter1138> second run is instant, as the files are cached
12:12:04  <peter1138> hmm, not instant
12:12:05  <peter1138> but faster
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12:33:58  <Darkvater>
12:34:08  <Darkvater> peter1138: TIC(), TOC()
12:34:56  <peter1138> that doesn't give you seconds ;p
12:35:39  <Darkvater> it does if you know your clock/tick ratio :)
12:36:37  <peter1138> um
12:36:38  <peter1138> yeah
12:36:41  <peter1138> which i don't ;P
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12:39:00  <Darkvater> :)
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12:46:01  <Brianetta> My watch ticks six times a second
12:46:34  <Sacro> Brianetta: show off
12:47:16  <Brianetta> I'mnot showing off
12:47:32  <Brianetta> It's a common clock/tick ratio
12:48:35  <Eddi|zuHause> my clock/tick ratio is ENullPointerDereference
12:48:58  <Brianetta> Are you saying you have no ticker?
12:49:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no, no clock ;)
12:49:20  <Brianetta> your clock would be your ticker
12:49:56  <Brianetta> My anniversary clock used to tick once a minute
12:50:07  <Brianetta> but it has a broken torsion spring now, and alas, does not tick at all.
12:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you should not buy clocks from the taiwanese who says "psst, over here..."
12:51:13  <Sacro> i me admires his genuine rorex
12:51:19  <Sacro> err /me even
12:51:30  <Brianetta> I have a genuine Tissot at home
12:51:34  <Sacro> darn this microsuft keyboard
12:51:39  <Brianetta> but I dropped it
12:51:41  <Brianetta> and its winder broke
12:51:42  <Sacro> :(
12:51:47  <Brianetta> and there's no other way to wind it
12:52:00  <Brianetta> and it'll be £60 just to have a jeweller look at it
12:52:12  <Sacro> :( not good
12:52:14  <Eddi|zuHause> sure you don't have a kezboard, Sacro? ;)
12:52:18  <Brianetta> My dad gave me that watch
12:52:26  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: no, its not german :p
12:52:32  <Brianetta> azerty
12:53:08  <Brianetta> qwertz
12:53:39  <Sacro> dvorak?
12:53:46  <Brianetta> qwerty
12:53:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it was always so annoing in DOS, when something failed to boot properly, and you had to type "keyb gr"
12:53:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and you always hit "kezb gr"
12:54:00  <Brianetta> We have to type keyb uk
12:54:20  <Sacro> i never bothered
12:54:24  <Brianetta> but only when we got really annoyed that £,#,",@ and so on were all COMPLETELY WRONG
12:54:26  <Sacro> i just learnt to use a US layout
12:54:39  <Sacro> finding | is the biggest challenge
12:54:43  <Brianetta> and \
12:54:47  <Brianetta> it's the same key
12:54:51  <Sacro> yup
12:55:01  <Brianetta> and I'm convinced it doesn't exist on some UK keyboards
12:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it is even more annoying, if you first have to figure out where common keys like : and \ are
12:55:10  <peter1138> \|\|\|
12:55:18  <Brianetta> \|\||\
12:55:25  <Sacro> \|/|\|/
12:55:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and you generally try the correct key last ;)
12:55:37  <Brianetta> \/\/ | |
12:55:43  <Brianetta> Nintendo?
12:55:50  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: yes, when ive found it, i stop :p
12:56:11  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
12:56:18  <peter1138> oh
12:56:24  <peter1138> that's why my foot was freezing
12:56:30  <peter1138> the fan was on but the heater wasn't :/
12:56:35  <Sacro> peter1138: hehe
12:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i meanwhile found out that : lies on Ö. and \ on #
12:57:18  <Eddi|zuHause> even worse is -
12:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that lies on ß
12:57:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and + is totally wrong, you have to press shift for that
12:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and () are one key off...
12:59:03  <Brianetta> We have to press shift for + all the time
12:59:13  <Sacro> do wel?
12:59:15  <Brianetta> except for that + key way over there on the right end of the board
12:59:18  <Prof_Frink> but not for -
12:59:22  <Sacro> oh yes...
12:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a massive design flaw ;)
12:59:27  <peter1138> hmm
12:59:31  <peter1138> ,
12:59:35  <Sacro> it annoys me on laptops when you cant do /* and */ without trouble
12:59:47  <Brianetta> or find PgDn
12:59:49  <Brianetta> or numloick
13:00:06  <Brianetta> or the four arrow keys are in a row
13:00:15  <Brianetta> because when tey're in a row, they're never vi-like
13:00:33  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: What kind of laptops have you been plating with? Even my Libretto has / and *
13:00:41  <Prof_Frink> plating? playing!
13:00:50  <Sacro> Prof_Frink: some kinda median/cybecom one
13:00:57  <Brianetta> It takes a numeric keypad to do /* and */ effortlessly.
13:01:17  <Brianetta> Or, a French keyboard, where you ened shift to get the numbers.
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13:01:51  <Prof_Frink> Or a broken keyboard, which doesn't work.
13:02:15  <Sacro> Prof_Frink: yeah, they are bad
13:02:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i had lots of people who complained that on german keyboard, you need AltGr to type [] and {}
13:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but since i do not do a lot of C coding, that does not bother me much ;)
13:03:15  <Sacro> we just need shift
13:03:20  <Sacro> except for []
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13:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a pascal-style language, you don't need {} that often
13:04:14  <Wolf01> ello
13:04:25  <Prof_Frink> olle
13:04:39  <Sacro> elol
13:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Frau Holle ... i knew it ;)
13:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (does there exist an english translation of "Frau Holle"?)
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14:26:30  <Darkvater> put up your hands if you're bored
14:27:07  * smeding puts up hands
14:27:13  <Prof_Frink> \o/
14:27:13  * Darkvater shoots smeding
14:27:18  <Darkvater> other takers?
14:27:22  <Prof_Frink> /o\
14:27:24  * smeding bleeds
14:27:45  <Prof_Frink> Those hands are definately down. down. not up. down.
14:27:51  * Brianetta waves a hand half-heartedly
14:27:56  <Brianetta> I'm only kind-of bored
14:28:07  * Darkvater pokes at Brianetta
14:28:17  <Brianetta> wassup?
14:28:24  <Darkvater> stick'em up!
14:28:46  <smeding> oh yeah i was gonna program my PIC12F675 to blink a LEd
14:28:50  <Brianetta> You want me to become bored, or to lie?
14:28:55  * smeding wanders off
14:29:07  * Darkvater shoots smeding legs
14:29:12  <Darkvater> 's
14:29:13  * Darkvater gets into a frenzy and slaughters Brianetta's arms. Blood splatt
14:29:22  <Prof_Frink> ers everywhere
14:29:26  <Darkvater> exactly
14:29:31  * Brianetta tps wiht nosesse
14:29:45  * Prof_Frink steals Darkvater's gun.
14:29:52  <Sacro> Brianetta: strangely i belive you
14:30:07  <Brianetta> fool
14:30:08  <Brianetta> sucker
14:30:22  * Darkvater gets out his hunting knife
14:30:31  <Darkvater> *insane laughter*
14:30:38  * Sacro dons his hunting cap
14:30:41  * Prof_Frink shoots Darkvater
14:30:43  * Brianetta tenses a garotte
14:30:54  <Darkvater> what? you can't shoot me!
14:31:00  <Darkvater> I'm in charge here
14:31:02  * Prof_Frink dons ninja garb
14:31:22  * Prof_Frink kills Darkvater with Real Ultimate Power
14:31:52  <Prof_Frink> Friday evening, the blood still on my hands
14:32:20  <peter1138> don's ninja garb?
14:32:24  <Darkvater> hmm bummer
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14:34:49  <Prof_Frink> Open your eyes, Victoria
14:35:26  * Sacro prods Prof_Frink with a mortar, and runs sharpish
14:35:54  * Prof_Frink does a backflip onto the roof, runs along and drops down in front of Sacro
14:36:14  <Sacro> noooo
14:36:21  * Sacro throws it towards Darkvater
14:37:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i am having some matrix flashbacks...
14:37:46  <Prof_Frink> No, that's just me
14:38:01  <Prof_Frink> Ninjas are like that
14:38:13  <Sacro> how can you type, when you have -v
14:38:34  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: More verbosely
14:38:50  <Sacro> -vv ?
14:39:00  <Prof_Frink> Very Verbose ;)
14:40:50  <Prof_Frink> As for -vvvvvv, well...
14:41:08  * Darkvater sets mode +m for #openttd
14:41:09  <Sacro> parkinsons...
14:41:15  <smeding> :o
14:41:16  <Eddi|zuHause> reminds me of plays with replacing f and v in german words... but they are not translateable...
14:41:19  <Sacro> *Darkvater lies :p
14:41:33  <Prof_Frink> What is it?  It's an elephant being eaten by a snake, of course.
14:41:39  * smeding tries to program a PIC
14:41:43  <Sacro> o_O
14:41:47  <smeding> wish me luck
14:41:49  <smeding> or not :>
14:41:54  * Sacro movlw and movwfs smeding
14:41:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink knows the little prince ;)
14:42:04  *** mode/#openttd [+m] by Darkvater
14:42:08  <Darkvater> there :)
14:42:11  *** mode/#openttd [-m] by Darkvater
14:42:13  <Sacro> :o
14:42:17  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: No, /exec -o aptitude -vvvvvv moo
14:42:19  * Eddi|zuHause cries and stomps on the floor
14:43:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: what would that do?
14:46:17  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, this "elephant eaten by a snake" thing is from the children's book "Le petit price" from Antoine de Saint-Exupery
14:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause> where everyone looking at the picture said "no, that is a hat"
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14:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> because they were adults and had no phantasy
14:47:19  <Sacro> fantasy
14:47:23  *** Progman [] has quit []
14:47:27  <Sacro> err... imagination
14:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> right, because english people don't know greek either...
14:48:06  <Sacro> kalispera Eddi|zuHause
14:55:41  <Darkvater> hmm I wonder... do we need the cheat-gui?
14:55:56  <Darkvater> it would actually be easier to do it from the console itself
14:56:26  <Darkvater> cheat company 3; cheat year 200
14:56:28  <Darkvater> 4
14:56:51  <Brianetta> yey
14:57:04  <Brianetta> then autopilot can cheat like an Italian
14:57:18  <Darkvater> eh no, cause cheats are disabled in network mode :)
14:57:30  <Brianetta> Even for the server? )-:
14:57:46  <Darkvater> and don't talk ill to me about Italians cause I'll come over and shoot your thingie
14:58:03  <Belugas> i'd rather use the cheat gui then console
14:58:07  <Belugas> but i'm lazy
14:58:11  <Brianetta> I'm pretty sure Italians cheat liek the rest of us
14:58:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i bet the reason for this is not multiplayer balance, but lack of effort for making them network-save ;)
14:58:45  <Darkvater> it's probably network-safe already, since the check for them occurs deep inside the commands
14:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> you would not want any player activating magic bulldozer ;)
14:59:50  <Darkvater> the only part that needs implementing to get it work in multiplayer is to sync the new values
14:59:51  <peter1138> some players disagree
15:00:08  <peter1138> no cheats in mp, i say ;p
15:00:20  <Brianetta> Very Magic Bulldozer - lets you demolish opponents' infrastructure
15:01:38  <peter1138> that's called "not setting a password"
15:03:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that would happen much less often, if you stored a password hash in the savegame, and allow people to create local company profiles with a standard password
15:03:44  <Sacro> hmm, work
15:03:58  <Sacro> :( they're gonna want me to pay rent and sign a contract
15:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> sue them ;)
15:04:24  <Darkvater> md5sum :)
15:04:25  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: i could...
15:04:31  <Sacro> Darkvater: buh?
15:04:32  <Darkvater> hmm, that's probably even a good idea
15:04:51  *** Sacro is now known as Sacro|Wrk
15:05:15  <Brianetta> saving passwords would be a good idea, too
15:05:32  <Tron> it would be outright silly
15:05:33  <Darkvater> no, only the hash
15:05:56  <Brianetta> Tron: Silly?  When a server is restarted form a saved game, it's a free-for-all.
15:06:05  <Tron> i can already hear hundreds of complaints about forgotten passwords and therefore no longer usable savegames
15:06:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you could ignore passwords for loading in single player mode
15:06:42  <Brianetta> Since when did paswords protect a single-player company?
15:07:19  <Darkvater> passwords would only affect multiplayer games...and yes people could complain there that they forgot their code
15:07:28  <Darkvater> but then the server could reset-remove this PW
15:07:59  <Brianetta> People already complain when they come back to a server to find their company vandalised because the server went down and had to be reloaded.
15:09:54  *** Bear_ [] has joined #openttd
15:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that was exactly the point, rather have a forgotten password that can be removed by the server admin, than have the company unprotected
15:10:37  <Darkvater> zOMG z bear
15:10:39  * Darkvater runs
15:10:55  * Darkvater runs back
15:10:59  <Darkvater> s/z/a/
15:11:00  * Darkvater runs
15:11:37  <Bear_> huh
15:12:06  <Brianetta>
15:12:08  <Brianetta> wawr
15:12:09  <Brianetta> rawr
15:12:52  <Eddi|zuHause> how many of these things do you need?
15:13:27  <Brianetta> I need that one
15:13:34  <Brianetta> and I have three others I won recently
15:13:41  * Eddi|zuHause places bid ;p
15:13:45  <Brianetta> yey!
15:13:49  <Brianetta> Share the slide rule love
15:14:01  <Brianetta> Seriously, that one's rare
15:14:07  <Brianetta> well, actually, the model is common as muck
15:14:17  <Brianetta> but they were really cheaply made
15:14:25  <Brianetta> and it's very, very rare to see one in that condition
15:14:33  <Brianetta> All mine are brown and peeling
15:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Aktuelles Gebot:   £10,50  (Ungefähr EUR 15,69) <- i would classify that as expensive...
15:17:36  <Brianetta> It is.  I normally pay £3 for one.
15:17:50  <Brianetta> This is, though, in an unusually good state.
15:18:01  <hylje> aaa
15:18:14  <hylje> slide rule :o
15:18:22  <Brianetta> Rechenschieber
15:18:27  <Brianetta> oder Rechenstab
15:18:45  <Brianetta> Some of my best purchases were from Germany
15:18:46  <Prof_Frink> Soon we'll be sliding down the razor blade of life
15:18:56  *** Bear_ [] has left #openttd []
15:19:13  <Brianetta> including an Aristo BiScholar which I discovered, after I'd received it, had never been taken out o fits box.
15:19:23  <Brianetta> It still has its factory QC docket
15:19:28  <Brianetta> and not a mark anywhere on it
15:19:43  <Brianetta> the instructions look like they were printed this weel
15:19:44  <Brianetta> week
15:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never heard "Rechenstab" before...
15:20:35  <Brianetta> Nevertheless, it gives good eBay results
15:20:41  <Brianetta> amongst all the abaci
15:20:53  <Brianetta> Normally Rechenstab == Abacus
15:21:47  <Belugas> #Abacab
15:25:00  <Brianetta>
15:25:03  <Brianetta> I want one of those
15:25:05  <Brianetta> so badly
15:25:14  <Brianetta> but that's going to get sniped up to hundreds of Euros
15:25:54  <Brianetta> The Faber Castell 2/83N is pretty much the single most sought-after slide rule on the planet.
15:26:38  <Brianetta> I always add them to my watch list when I see them
15:26:44  <Brianetta> but the prices they fetch are a joke
15:27:42  <Prof_Frink> < Brianetta> The Faber Castell 2/83N is pretty much the single most sought-after slide rule on the planet. <--You have just entered a new level of geekhood.
15:31:19  <Brianetta> No, Prof_Frink - I live here permanently.
15:31:34  <Brianetta> I was invited to join the UK Slide Rule Circle
15:31:51  <Brianetta> 80 members, including the Greenwich Maritime Museum
15:32:00  <Brianetta> I fell behind on subs, though
15:32:17  <Brianetta> although I'm a member of the ISRG (:
15:32:47  <Prof_Frink> OK, I'm scared now
15:33:48  <Brianetta> I'm into trains, too
15:33:52  <Brianetta> although I don't spot
15:34:24  <Brianetta> and space ships
15:34:35  <Brianetta> which is, oddly, directly responsible for my interest in slide rules
15:34:44  <Brianetta> Blame Robert Heinlein
15:35:27  <Brianetta> shit
15:35:29  <Brianetta>
15:35:33  <Brianetta> another 2/83N
15:35:47  * Brianetta cries
15:36:01  <Brianetta> Just because they appeared in a Scientific American article
15:36:10  <Brianetta> the price skyrocketed
15:36:21  <Brianetta> Thank you, Scientific American, for nothing.
15:36:42  <Brianetta> I wanted one before you told the world and his mate that these things were worth a lot
15:37:06  <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: Place a bid, then DDoS eBay until the auction expires
15:37:18  <Brianetta> No way
15:37:26  <Brianetta> I won't be highest bidder
15:38:12  <Prof_Frink> You would be if eBay is inaccessible
15:38:36  <Brianetta> nope
15:38:57  <Brianetta> sergiopitu will still be higher
15:39:26  <Brianetta> Besides, it's already higher than I think it's worth
15:40:05  <Brianetta> A mint-in-box one would be worth more, but that one's condition is listed as "used"
15:40:21  <Brianetta> There's a total frenzy over the 2/83N, it's weird
15:40:52  <Brianetta> People are speculating with them, hopin gto sell on for a profit
15:41:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that's bound to fall apart like a card house
15:41:25  <Brianetta> I just want to play with the 20" root scales with 4sf precision
15:42:16  <peter1138> heh
15:42:36  <Prof_Frink> So, do you take slide rules into meetings to freak people out?
15:42:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted to digitalize my analog H0 trains, but i have neither the space nor the money for a significant track length to let them drive on
15:43:15  <Brianetta>
15:43:19  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe "is this a slide rule in your pocket or are you just happy to see me" ;p
15:43:22  <Brianetta> good price analysis for speculation
15:43:29  <smeding> hmm
15:43:29  <Brianetta> I have a slide rule on my desk
15:43:38  <smeding> my PIC programmer doesn't seem to work :<
15:43:39  <Brianetta> and I wear one in a smart leather holster when I dress up
15:43:52  <smeding> well, the drivers/software/whatever are probably just fucked up
15:43:55  <Brianetta> I might have one on my person as I get married next year
15:45:38  <Brianetta>
15:45:38  <Brianetta> woah
15:45:42  <Brianetta> look at the top of that
15:46:02  <Darkvater> am I the only one who finds this a little bit disturbing/freakish?
15:46:16  <Brianetta> Darkvater: huh?
15:46:29  <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: That's just silly
15:46:48  <Brianetta> Prof_Frink: Indeed it is.
15:46:56  <Brianetta> Those are actual eBay finals.
15:47:18  <Brianetta> SRU isn't selling them until the price falls
15:47:45  <Brianetta> Walter thinks it's undignified to sell them so high, and won't sell them for his normal price just to haev them eBayed.
15:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but, when offering a larger amount, the prices would probably drop significantly ;)
15:50:03  <Brianetta> There isn't a large amount, and none have been made for 30 years
15:50:45  <Brianetta> There was a significant stash of new ones discovered in Venezuela, but the owner trickles them out to maximise his profit.
15:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i am aware that no sane person would produce slide rules anymore ;)
15:52:10  <Brianetta> er
15:52:15  <Brianetta> Concise of Japan still do
15:52:37  <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: 'sane person' 'of Japan'
15:52:48  <Brianetta> and, of course, the aeronautic industry still makes massive use of them
15:53:02  <Brianetta> Pilots appreciate a one-handed flight computer that doesn't require batteries
15:55:54  <Darkvater> Prices of slide rules sold on ebay (the internet auction) in Jun-2006
15:55:54  <Darkvater> "Faber-Castell 2/83N slide rule (mint, new in  5.09 02-Jun-2006 21
15:55:56  <Darkvater> o_O
15:56:12  * Brianetta nods
15:56:24  <Brianetta> You'd never use it
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15:56:30  <Brianetta> not if you paid that for it
15:56:49  <Brianetta> I'd rather have a slightly worn second hand one for £30
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16:00:17  <Brianetta> , nearly half way down:
16:00:24  <Brianetta> "Prices are still too high to offer these right now, but will keep looking."
16:00:28  <Brianetta> That's for the 2/83N
16:01:15  <Brianetta> Just below that one is a Unique rule
16:01:19  <blathijs> wtf is a slide rule?
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16:01:28  <Brianetta> which is like the one I'm bidding on, but in poorer condition
16:02:14  <Brianetta> blathijs: For the 300 years that happened before HP invented the pocket electronic scientific calculator in 1973, slide rules were scientific calculators.
16:02:42  <blathijs> ah :-)
16:03:23  <Brianetta> Here, play with this one, see if you can figure out how to work it:
16:03:24  <Brianetta>
16:04:19  <blathijs> We call them rekenliniaal (calculation ruler), but I've seen 'em before :-)
16:11:23  <peter1138> oh my god
16:11:32  <peter1138> i have netscape mozilla installed :/
16:11:42  <Brianetta> I found that I had it, too
16:11:47  <Brianetta> not sure why
16:11:53  <peter1138> what a horrible UI
16:12:38  <Brianetta> Know what I want more than any slide rule?
16:12:46  <Brianetta>
16:12:48  <Brianetta> One of these
16:12:56  <Brianetta> They go for STUPID money
16:13:00  <Brianetta> but they are relly cool
16:13:10  <Brianetta> imagine a pepper grinder with computational power
16:14:00  <Prof_Frink> A robotic pepperpot? Would that not attempt to EXTERMINATE humanity?
16:16:04  *** Sacro|Wrk is now known as Sacro
16:16:18  <Brianetta> Ooooh, there's one with a buy-it-now price of 00
16:16:24  <Brianetta> That's asking a lot
16:17:32  <Brianetta> Enough.  I can't afford a Curta, and I never will be able to afford a Curta.  I spend too much on outdoors equipment.
16:20:26  *** Neonox [] has quit [Quit: bin wech....]
16:20:42  <CIA-1> miham * r7030 /trunk/lang/ (german.txt hungarian.txt norwegian.txt):
16:20:42  <CIA-1> WebTranslator2 update to 2006-11-01 17:19:54
16:20:42  <CIA-1> german - 1 fixed, 1 changed by Neonox (2)
16:20:42  <CIA-1> hungarian - 5 fixed by miham (5)
16:20:42  <CIA-1> norwegian - 5 fixed by brygge_2 (5)
16:21:05  <Darkvater> WHOHOO...home powah!
16:21:21  <MiHaMiX> evening
16:22:37  <peter1138> 16:24 :/
16:23:05  <Prof_Frink> 36 minutes till escaperage
16:23:12  <peter1138> wow
16:23:18  <peter1138> someone came up with a programmable signals idea
16:23:24  <peter1138> what's novel
16:23:31  <MiHaMiX> 17:25, and it's a bank holiday here
16:23:45  <Prof_Frink> bank holiday on a wednesday?
16:25:03  <MiHaMiX> Prof_Frink: yeah, kinda.
16:25:09  <Sacro> peter1138: KUDr is reimplementing LUA
16:25:18  <MiHaMiX> Sacro: LUA ?
16:25:23  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: pm :)
16:25:52  <Prof_Frink> MiHaMiX: CrAzY.
16:25:53  <Brianetta> LUA is teh c00lioness
16:26:29  <Sacro> MiHaMiX: i belive
16:26:29  <MiHaMiX> Prof_Frink: it's memorial day for the deads
16:26:32  <blathijs> ie, the scripting language?
16:26:42  <Brianetta>
16:26:45  <Sacro> at college tommorow its "Borat celebration day"...
16:27:19  <Sacro> i think the 5 day gap between halloween and bonfire night was too much for people
16:27:48  <peter1138> ...
16:28:02  <peter1138> oh, i guess some people pay attention to any of that...
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16:29:03  <Prof_Frink> peter1138: We do to bonfire night - it involves fire and explosives.
16:29:18  <Sacro> wooyay
16:29:26  * Sacro turns the gas on the oven
16:30:42  * Sacro lights it causes a large fire and explosion :D
16:30:56  <Prof_Frink> Yays
16:31:05  * MiHaMiX is so sleepy.. :-( *yawn*
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16:46:10  <Prof_Frink> Darkvater: I'm bored.
16:46:55  <Brianetta> BORED PEOPLE: Make a slide rule.
16:47:06  <Brianetta>
16:47:09  <Sacro> i have no sticky back plastic or coathangers :(
16:47:15  <Brianetta> You need neither.
16:47:24  <Brianetta> A laser printer, some card and some glue.
16:48:05  <Sacro> a) no :( b) no :( c) no :(
16:48:16  <Sacro> though i do have a voicemail
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17:07:05  <Maedhros> haha,
17:07:54  * Sacro tries to dig out lolmans address...
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17:30:01  <BobingAbout> i'm begining to understand the newGRF format
17:30:29  <BobingAbout> although, i still don't know enough to define the signals format yet
17:34:50  *** Bear_ [] has joined #openttd
17:35:13  <Sacro> cool
17:41:46  <Wolf01> mmm i can't access to forums and ottd site
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17:42:41  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7031 /trunk/newgrf.c: -Codechange: Use _skip_sprites to skip the rest of the NewGRF when disabled by GRM, and add a shortcut so that the rest of the file isn't scanned.
17:43:33  <peter1138> Wolf01: the, not to
17:44:23  <Wolf01> what are the latest revisions?
17:45:48  <Wolf01> (can somebody paste the list of the last two days in private?
17:47:00  <Sacro> Wolf01:
17:47:02  <Rubidium> Wolf01: just works
17:47:03  <Sacro> click on timeline at the top
17:47:16  <Wolf01> i can't access the site!!!!!
17:47:48  <Wolf01> my stupid network is splitted, i can see half the web
17:47:48  <Rubidium> that means your internet connection is somewhere broken
17:49:58  <Sacro> (
17:51:25  <Wolf01> i can't reach some sites, not resolve dns
17:51:38  <BobingAbout> iggy
17:51:43  <Sacro> koopa?
17:52:03  <BobingAbout> aye
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18:00:25  <BobingAbout> bye all
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19:09:31  <kakTuZ> hi
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19:21:55  <jez>
19:22:04  <jez> Excellent rendition of Midnight at the Oasis
19:22:15  <jez> why didn't the Brand New Heavies ever really get popular?
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19:24:24  <Brianetta>
19:24:29  <Brianetta> I'm going to win it!
19:24:37  * Brianetta begins to hyperventilate
19:24:46  <Brianetta> I got two slide rules in the mail today
19:24:57  <peter1138> lol
19:27:21  <Sacro> Brianetta: is it a collection? or a fetish?
19:31:00  <Brianetta> Collection.
19:31:21  <Brianetta> I have more in the cupboard, it's not like I just started.
19:32:32  <Sacro> heh, i might get one for my maths course
19:32:39  <hylje> funny
19:32:44  <Sacro> i need something to make the lessons go a bit faster
19:32:56  <Brianetta> It'll help with maths.
19:33:14  <Brianetta> If you understand the slide rule, you begin to understand the nature of some of the rest of your maths.
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19:39:33  <peter1138> such as why do the british call it maths and the americans call at math?
19:39:50  <hylje> americans suck
19:40:30  <Belugas> colors -> colours
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19:40:41  <Belugas> and it goes on and on and on
19:41:18  <Belugas> why do french say "Parking" and quebecers "Stationnement"
19:41:25  <Belugas> different conuntries
19:41:51  <Belugas> different habits
19:41:57  <Belugas> different languages
19:42:20  <Noldo> why do Finnlands swedish say semla and Swedish fralla
19:42:52  <Sacro> and why do you say Finnlands when say Finnish?
19:43:30  <Belugas> Why do birds suddenly appear
19:43:41  <Belugas> evrytime you are near
19:43:52  <hylje>
19:43:59  <Noldo> I was thinking about the way they would say it in swedish and couldn't get rid of the idea
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19:44:14  <Noldo> I propably should check for some official translation
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19:45:19  *** Nigel [~Nigel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:46:04  <Noldo> Finland Swedish is the language or group of dialects and Swedish-speaking Finn is a person who speaks it
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19:47:06  <Sacro> :S confuseding
19:48:01  <Noldo>
19:48:48  <BobingAbout> iggy
19:48:49  <Ailure> haha
19:48:50  <Ailure> this was mean
19:48:56  <Ailure> My friend like
19:49:01  <Ailure> is connected through me on VPN
19:49:08  <Ailure> but his regular intenret seems borky becuse of that
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20:08:27  <SpComb> Logs:
20:08:27  <Belugas> !logs
20:08:45  *** Tron [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09:58  <jez> the americans can only do one at a time
20:10:04  <jez> (maths/math)
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20:10:21  *** Tron_ is now known as Tron
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20:14:55  <Brianetta> It's my slide rule
20:18:41  <Sacro> Wolf01: ping
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20:26:52  <MiHaMiX> a little bit OpenTTD related:
20:27:12  <MiHaMiX> the train experienced some difficulties :)
20:27:12  <Sacro> MiHaMiX: ooh fsck
20:27:23  <hylje> interesting
20:27:26  <Wolf01> Lag from Sacro: 1200secs
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20:27:38  <BobingAbout> ping
20:27:40  <Sacro> Wolf01: someone has posted a new daylength patch
20:27:47  <BobingAbout> wwho?
20:27:53  <Wolf01> and why?
20:28:05  <Wolf01> why not improve the one that already exist
20:28:09  <BobingAbout> maybe yours is crap?
20:28:10  <Wolf01> and make a new one?
20:28:25  <Wolf01> there is only one way to make it
20:28:26  <Sacro> Wolf01: he did improve it
20:28:29  <BobingAbout> maybe they did improve it
20:28:38  <Sacro> now you dont earn cash at daylength *
20:28:47  <BobingAbout> eh?
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20:28:53  <Wolf01> the economy section was crappy
20:28:54  <BobingAbout> what, like my sugestion?
20:29:01  <Wolf01> in my patch
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20:29:44  <Wolf01> because i can't understand the economy in ottd
20:30:31  <Wolf01> also in drag&drop purchase land i've problems in the cost of the tiles
20:30:59  <Wolf01> i wish to see it
20:31:23  <Sacro> Wolf01: is in the dev forum
20:31:36  <Sacro> BobingAbout: [20:27] <BobingAbout> ping <- any replies?
20:32:17  <Wolf01> i can't access the forums
20:32:33  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:32:34  <Sacro> :(
20:33:08  <Wolf01> why only ottd and ttforums and google?
20:33:09  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
20:33:37  <hylje> Wolf01: your dns is broken and you have those domains in your local cache
20:34:09  <Wolf01> already tried with the ip passed from sacro
20:34:12  *** TinoM [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:35:00  <Wolf01> but is not the dns, is my isp splitted from half of the network maybe 'cause of some works
20:35:24  <peter1138> split :D
20:35:35  <Wolf01> yes, split
20:35:36  <hylje> *.net *.split
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20:49:56  <peter1138> Darkvater:
20:50:38  <BobingAbout> ping
20:53:09  <BobingAbout> iggy iggins
20:55:57  <Wolf01> ping timeout
20:56:05  <BobingAbout> lol
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21:00:53  <Darkvater> back
21:01:19  <BobingAbout> ping
21:03:00  <Darkvater> peter1138: whazzup?
21:03:19  <peter1138> wondering about utf8ness
21:03:48  <Darkvater> utf8 is out
21:03:51  <Darkvater> utf9 is in
21:04:28  <BobingAbout> utf9?
21:04:34  <peter1138> damn
21:05:02  <Frostregen> lol
21:07:48  <Darkvater> peter1138: you're asking for merging?
21:08:08  <peter1138> i'm asking for "wtf should happen now"
21:08:44  <Darkvater> why the uncertainty?
21:09:03  <Darkvater> is it done and you don't know what to do with it; or there are some issues at hand that needed to be decided on?
21:10:58  <peter1138> i think i want someone to go over it and say things like "wtf is this"
21:11:20  <BobingAbout> lol
21:12:02  <Darkvater> ah
21:12:08  * Darkvater votes for jez :)
21:12:25  <Darkvater> kk, /me will have a look
21:19:27  <Born_Acorn> The new characters aren't the same as the originals!
21:19:32  <Born_Acorn> revert! revert!
21:20:52  *** Turski [] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
21:34:01  * peter1138 reverts Born_Acorn
21:35:58  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: :DDD
21:36:19  <peter1138> currently debugging a newgrf bug
21:36:30  <peter1138> hmm
21:36:33  <peter1138> w/w :)
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21:41:27  <Brianetta> Feel my 10" slide rules
21:41:31  <Brianetta> ooh yeah baby
21:41:46  <Sacro> :|
21:41:52  <Sacro> Brianetta: cold shower time
21:41:55  <Tron> "penis mathematicus"
21:42:10  <Brianetta> I won all my auctions
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21:44:38  <Darkvater> hmm how do I merge the utf8 branch?
21:45:26  <Sacro> Darkvater: copy paste?
21:45:45  *** dp-_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:46:11  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: svn merge?
21:46:29  <Darkvater> windows doesn't have a 'which' command :(
21:46:36  <Darkvater> now where did I put my svn client-tools
21:46:52  <XeryusTC> where ever you want
21:47:02  <Darkvater> yes but I don't remember
21:47:03  <Brianetta> Darkvater: Examine %PATH
21:47:20  <XeryusTC> the setup wil edit PATH
21:47:30  <Darkvater> I unzipped the zip
21:47:31  <XeryusTC> if you have the one from tigris that is
21:47:44  <Darkvater> hmm I seem to have put it in windows\system32
21:47:52  <XeryusTC> WINDIR/system32 would be the savest
21:48:09  <Darkvater> C:\Documents and Settings\tomi\Desktop\commit>svn merge svn://
21:48:13  <Darkvater> anches/utf8 -r 5004:HEAD
21:48:20  <Darkvater> hmm, not good
21:48:28  * Darkvater reads up on svn commands
21:48:51  <XeryusTC> svn help merge
21:48:56  <XeryusTC> try to do a dry run ;)
21:49:02  <Darkvater> :)
21:49:02  <peter1138> i did svn merge svn:// svn:// .
21:49:08  <Darkvater> hmm
21:49:09  <peter1138> dunno how efficient that is
21:49:29  <Darkvater> I thought of leaving out trunk/ cause my wc was already trunk
21:49:37  <peter1138> yeah, i couldn't get that working either
21:49:48  * Darkvater tries peter's method
21:49:53  <Darkvater> conflicts? wtf
21:49:54  <Darkvater> gay
21:49:57  <peter1138> o_O
21:50:08  <peter1138> oh, maybe cos it's not synced now
21:50:19  <XeryusTC> [22:49:20] <XeryusTC> try to do a dry run ;)
21:50:27  <Darkvater> dry runs are for pussies
21:50:41  <XeryusTC> they save time
21:50:45  <Darkvater> I think my initial idea was good as well :)
21:50:53  <Darkvater> just got put off by the conflicts
21:51:02  <Darkvater> svn merge sourceURL1[@N] sourceURL2[@M] [WCPATH]
21:51:04  <Darkvater> ^ yeah
21:51:15  <Darkvater> svn merge -r N:M SOURCE[@REV] [WCPATH]
21:51:17  <peter1138> well there should only be a conflict in one place iirc
21:51:26  <Darkvater> ^ yeah #2
21:51:47  <Darkvater> airport_gui is also conflicting?
21:51:54  <peter1138> nope
21:51:57  <Darkvater> yes
21:52:00  <Darkvater> for me it is
21:52:10  <XeryusTC> you can get conflicts when you swap the source paths IIRC
21:52:34  <peter1138> Darkvater: ok, but there's no change in there from trunk
21:52:42  <Darkvater> well I did some changes
21:52:56  <Darkvater> but why it conflicted..utf8 SHOULD not even touch that file
21:52:59  <Brianetta> Will somebody tell zzarr that idea has an a on the end?
21:53:06  <XeryusTC> <XeryusTC> you can get conflicts when you swap the source paths IIRC
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21:55:51  <Darkvater> hmm this simple merge is not right if the branch is not up to date with trunk
21:55:57  <Darkvater> now I get uncommits ;p
21:56:00  <Darkvater> wait..
21:56:30  <Darkvater> unwait
21:56:43  <peter1138> heh
21:56:44  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: try to swap the source paths
21:58:18  <Sacro> can you not generate a diff from the point where the branch was created.. then apply that diff to trunk?
21:59:22  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
21:59:28  <Belugas_Gone> night all
22:01:21  <Darkvater> gn Belugas_Gone
22:01:23  <peter1138> AC=00:a0:cc:d1:77:93:02:10:18:01:00:01:08:00
22:01:26  <peter1138> +M
22:01:35  <peter1138> since when are MACs that long?
22:01:41  <peter1138> +addresses
22:02:28  <Darkvater> XeryusTC: do NOT switch the'll not even get a single change :)
22:02:45  <XeryusTC> o?
22:02:57  <jez> peter1138: looks more like an IPv6
22:04:26  <peter1138> 's not
22:05:07  <Tron> too short for IPv6
22:06:11  *** Tobin [] has joined #openttd
22:22:13  *** Sacro_ [~ben@adsl-213-249-186-213.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
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22:25:57  *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
22:27:20  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7032 /trunk/aircraft_cmd.c:
22:27:20  <CIA-1> - Fix (r1704): Sprite index wasn't updated with correct image number if
22:27:20  <CIA-1> custom image lookup fails.
22:29:02  <Darkvater> :O sleepage
22:29:39  <peter1138> yeah well
22:30:03  <peter1138> gfxinit.c:382
22:30:05  <peter1138> is a problem
22:30:28  <peter1138> cos the landscape might not change, but the newgrfs (or options that newgrfs use) can
22:31:23  <Darkvater> hmm, I get link errors with utf8
22:31:28  * Darkvater gets into it deep
22:31:36  <peter1138> meh
22:31:41  <peter1138> actually sleeping now
22:31:42  <peter1138> nini
22:31:47  * qb drops Darkvater a rescue line
22:31:54  * qb forgets to secure it :(
22:34:42  <Darkvater> good job qb
22:35:11  <qb> yeah, I'm useless
22:35:18  <Wolf01> 'night
22:35:21  *** Wolf01 [] has quit []
22:35:49  <Darkvater> o_O
22:35:58  <Darkvater> fontcache.c was not added to VS8 project
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22:49:19  <Darkvater> peter1138: he, tunga.ttf doesn't work I get all blocks :)
22:50:03  <glx> using gdi ?
22:50:11  <Darkvater> no using utf8
22:50:26  <glx> convert lang/*.txt to utf8
22:50:35  <Darkvater> that doesn't matter
22:50:39  <Darkvater> other fonts *do* work
22:50:43  <glx> ha ok :)
22:51:17  * Darkvater needs to decide between verdana or tahoma
22:54:12  <Sacro> Darkvater: tis a big question that
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22:55:43  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish]
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23:05:50  <Brianetta> I just discovered how easy it is to calculate compound interest on a log-log slide rule
23:06:03  <Brianetta> I can do it in half the time I can punch the buttons on my calculator
23:07:36  <Sacro> Brianetta: its keeping you occupied i see
23:08:36  <Brianetta> You should see how easily one can give you the roots of a quadratic equation
23:09:41  <Sacro> really? we are doing that at college now
23:09:47  <Sacro> just done completing the square
23:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> faster than i can type "!m solve(a*x^2+b*x+c,x)"?
23:10:38  <Brianetta> Eddi: Yes.  One handed, too, and during a power cut.
23:10:58  <Brianetta> Or even a sustained EMP
23:11:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the connection between me and the maple bot can be a little weak :)
23:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of things can fail ;)
23:11:55  <Eddi|zuHause> even without an EMP :)
23:13:15  <Sacro> Brianetta: yes, the next time an EMP goes off ill sit and do some quadratics
23:13:28  <Brianetta> It could save your life
23:13:49  <Brianetta> Radiation would be a concern, and its intensity follows an inverse square law
23:13:53  <Brianetta> with distance
23:14:03  <Brianetta> so you'll know if it's worth writing a will
23:14:26  <Sacro> hmm...true
23:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that would require both knowledge of the radiation that was set free, and the critical radiation your body can take
23:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't exactly google for that :p
23:15:13  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:16:08  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: no... id have to go to the library
23:16:15  <Sacro> but the emp would have wiped my library card :(
23:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a secret bunker in germany, where copies of all important books and other stuff gets stored on microfilm
23:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> for people that might dig that out in some thousand years
23:19:31  <Brianetta>
23:19:41  <Brianetta> Scroll down to the first military slide rule
23:19:49  <Brianetta> it's round, with a pink side and a blue side
23:19:54  <Brianetta> the description is hilarious
23:20:03  <Brianetta> and, er, on-topic
23:20:12  <Sacro> im almost considering downloading one
23:20:18  <Sacro> err.. buying even
23:20:19  <Brianetta> Her Majesty's government wins again
23:20:34  <Sacro> Interestingly, while it allows you to elegantly compute your radiatioon dosage, it does not say how much is fatal. An unfortunate oversight, if you should happen to really need this rule.
23:20:35  <Brianetta> Sacro: Pop round, I'll give you one for free
23:20:44  <Sacro> now theres an offer ;)
23:21:18  <Sacro> its a long ride out though is newcastle
23:22:02  <Brianetta> If you really want a rule, and want one that's guaranteed not to be buggered, look at Sphere's cheap rules page.
23:22:14  <Naksu> Sacro: i think anyone computing his or her radiation dosage knows how much is fatal
23:22:27  <Brianetta>
23:22:27  *** Rens2Sea [~Rens2Sea@] has quit []
23:22:36  <Sacro> Brianetta: im lacking in a credit card though
23:22:57  <Naksu> and fatal really depends on the duration of exposure
23:23:10  <Brianetta> Naksu: That radiation rule factors in time
23:23:21  <Brianetta> Sacro: They do IMOs
23:23:47  <Sacro> hmm... thats complex
23:25:08  <Brianetta> They have a  rule
23:25:16  <Brianetta> cool
23:25:35  <Naksu> Brianetta: yeah but it doesnt display fatal dosage, like sacro said
23:25:39  <Brianetta> Sacro: You can email them.  Walter and Susan are good people, and might take PayPal if you explain your situation to them.
23:25:39  <Naksu> which is true
23:26:11  <Sacro> Brianetta: hmm, or i could see if i can get one on eBay
23:26:22  <Sacro> im just reading wikipedia, seeing if i could interpret it if i got one
23:26:23  <Brianetta> You'll get second hand oneson eBay no problem
23:27:06  <Brianetta> Sacro:
23:27:13  <Brianetta> That's a simulated JVM slide rule
23:27:20  <Brianetta> You can practice on it (:
23:27:39  <Naksu> speaking of radiation, this is pretty stupid
23:28:19  <Sacro> Naksu: impressive, it goes green halfway through the link
23:28:46  <Naksu> green?
23:29:05  <Sacro> Naksu: ye
23:29:14  <Sacro> i think xchat intercepted it
23:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> my father had a slide rule and once explained it to me
23:30:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but it was slightly broken
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23:31:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i once took it to school when i did not have a calculator, but it was not of much use for me
23:32:16  <Brianetta> %C3 did it
23:32:23  <Brianetta> this green
23:32:43  <Sacro> no, that green
23:32:49  <Sacro> hmm
23:32:53  <Brianetta> xchat shouldn't have interpreted that as colour unless you typed it yourself
23:32:55  <Sacro>  hmm
23:33:01  <Sacro>  interesting
23:33:03  <Brianetta> I'd look at which plugins you're abusing
23:33:10  <Sacro> i think im abusing a few...
23:33:32  <Brianetta> one of them is interpreting channel output as input, and that's bad for security
23:34:15  <Brianetta> "The two attempted to further open the casing, but were unable to. However, they did manage to break the iridium window, which allowed them to see the cesium chloride emitting a deep blue light."
23:34:18  <Brianetta> crumbs
23:34:21  <Brianetta> crumbs squared
23:34:47  <Brianetta> Imagine *seeing* cherenkov radiation for yourself
23:35:29  <Sacro> :o
23:35:51  <Brianetta> Imagine deciding that a blue-glowing material was suitable to form into a ring for your wife
23:36:28  <Naksu> Brianetta: or using it to paint yourself with
23:36:42  <Brianetta> I feel sorry for the little girl
23:36:44  <Naksu> or your farm animals
23:36:51  <Brianetta> who had to be buried in a lead coffin encased in concrete
23:37:00  <Sacro> Brianetta: what are you reading?
23:37:12  <Brianetta> Sacro: The wikipedia link that went green for you
23:37:31  <Brianetta>
23:38:09  <Naksu> "i don't know what this glowing blue stuff is but let's spread it around the house!"
23:38:41  <Naksu> wtf
23:38:42  <Naksu> Maria, the wife of the scrap metal yard owner, died a month later (23 October) from the effects of the radiation, though she may have saved the lives of many others by recognizing and inquiring about the innocent-looking but dangerous object.
23:38:43  <Sacro> thanks...
23:38:46  <Naksu> innocent-looking?
23:38:53  <Naksu> it fucking glows blue
23:38:57  <Sacro> did you read the one about the kid who made his own reactor?
23:39:08  <Brianetta> Sacro: Yeah
23:39:13  <Brianetta> that was unbelievably cool
23:39:16  <Brianetta> the work he put in
23:40:47  <Sacro> "Because the remains of the source were kept in a plastic bag, the level of contamination at the hospital was low" <- thats impressive
23:41:06  <Brianetta> Well, it meant it wasn't becoming embedded in skin, being inhaled, etc
23:41:14  <Brianetta> All radiation had to be external
23:41:20  <Brianetta> which is healthier
23:42:36  <Naksu> haha
23:42:55  <Naksu> check this out:
23:42:56  <Naksu> A local resident salvaged materials from a discarded radiation therapy machine carrying 6000 pellets of cobalt-60. The dismantling and transport of the material led to severe contamination of his truck; when the truck was scrapped, it in turn contaminated another 5000 metric tons of steel with an estimated 300 curies (11 terabecquerels) of activity.
23:43:05  <Naksu> This material was sold for kitchen table legs and building materials some of which was sent to the U.S. and Canada; the incident was discovered when a truck delivering contaminated building materials months later to the Los Alamos National Laboratory accidentally drove through a radiation monitoring station.
23:43:13  <Naksu> Contamination was later measured on the roads that were used to transport the original damaged radiation source. In some cases pellets were actually found embedded in the roadway. In the state of Sinaloa, 109 houses were condemned due to contaminated building material.
23:44:24  <Brianetta> I like the way to decontaminate humans
23:44:38  <Sacro>
23:44:42  <Sacro> Brianetta: fire...
23:44:44  <Brianetta> Administer prussian blue, then treat the urine as high-grade nuclear waste
23:44:44  <Sacro> lots of fire
23:44:55  <Sacro> you pee it out?
23:45:00  <Brianetta> You certainly do.
23:45:08  <Sacro> hmm...
23:45:33  <Brianetta> You can't remove rediation, but radioactive chemicals are still chemicals, and can be dealt with by catalysts, to bind and expel them.
23:45:51  <Naksu> you can pee cesium out with prussian blue
23:45:57  <Naksu> anything else and you're fucked
23:46:21  <Brianetta> You can conceivably fart radon
23:46:28  <Brianetta> but probably not nearly fast enough
23:46:47  <Sacro> ooh, fart radon
23:47:03  <Sacro> have beans for lunch and klil half the neighbourhood
23:50:20  <Brianetta>
23:51:58  <Brianetta> <-- The kid who made a breeder reactor in his shed
23:54:37  <Naksu> almost made
23:54:43  <Sacro> Brianetta: i linked it above :(
23:54:57  <Brianetta> oh yeah
23:58:01  <Sacro> Finally, David, whose safety precautions had thus far consisted of wearing a makeshift lead poncho and throwing away his clothes and changing his shoes following a session in the potting shed, began to realize that, sustained reaction or not, he could be putting himself and others in danger. (One tip-off was when the radiation was detectable through concrete.)

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