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00:10:01 <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7163 /trunk/yapf/ (autocopyptr.hpp countedptr.hpp): -Codechange: Disable compilation of additional yapf code. 00:14:48 <Darkvater> gn all 00:15:54 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B76EFE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:23:52 *** Zahl [~SENFGURKE@p549F1573.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: YOU! It was you wasn't it!?] 00:36:02 *** DaleStan_ [~Dale@74.132.220.79] has joined #openttd 00:39:41 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:22 *** DaleStan [~Dale@74.132.220.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:48:23 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B7532B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:50:21 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 01:01:03 *** Frostregen [SADDAM@dslb-084-058-181-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:07:15 *** Triffid_Hunter [~Splat@funkmunch.net] has joined #openttd 01:09:08 *** pxl [~PigCell@dslb-088-073-240-230.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 01:11:04 *** Frostregen [SADDAM@dslb-084-058-164-041.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 01:12:25 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ac4.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:15:52 *** PigCell 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reset by peer] 05:48:01 *** Frostregen [SADDAM@dslb-084-058-166-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 05:50:26 *** Osai [~Osai@p57AAFAC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:52:12 *** Osai^2 [~Osai@p57AAFAC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:56:28 *** DaleStan_ [~Dale@74.140.112.197] has joined #openttd 05:58:28 *** Osai [~Osai@p57AAFAC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:59:34 *** DaleStan [~Dale@74.132.220.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:59:34 *** DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan 06:00:16 *** Osai^2 [~Osai@p57AAFAC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:04:26 *** tormentum [~adam@dsl-202-72-187-122.wa.westnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:20:10 *** tormentum [~adam@dsl-202-72-142-139.wa.westnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 06:20:26 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:26:26 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 06:33:55 *** StarLite [~Star@StarLite.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:50:58 *** tormentum [~adam@dsl-202-72-142-139.wa.westnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:15:44 *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has joined #openttd 07:24:49 *** Tobin [~Tobin@c58-107-61-130.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 07:25:06 <Tobin> Word. 07:29:39 <peter1138> Letter. 07:30:45 <Tobin> Vowel. 07:31:02 <peter1138> Consonent. 07:31:20 <Tobin> Incontinence. 07:31:43 <peter1138> Pads. 07:31:49 <Tobin> Chair. 07:32:50 * Tobin thinks word association is fun but falls flat quickly 07:33:12 <peter1138> Yes, bored now. 07:33:19 <Tobin> Me too. 07:33:50 <Tobin> What's new? 07:43:27 *** ufoun [~ha@b07-305a.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #openttd 07:56:32 <Prof_Frink> Tobin: The day 07:56:58 <Tobin> Bah, that's almost 19 hours old! 07:59:27 <Prof_Frink> Nonsensicalities! 07:59:37 <Prof_Frink> 'tis not even 8AM 07:59:44 <Prof_Frink> 'tis now 08:18:31 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:25:31 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:35:22 *** Purno [~Purno@5351CE6A.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 08:46:18 *** tokai|osx [~tokai@p54B806B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:49:37 *** tokai|osx [~tokai@p54B828CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:29:16 *** mikl [~mikl@tbv.faderhuset.org] has joined #openttd 09:36:58 *** Purno [~Purno@5351CE6A.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Purno has spoken] 09:39:13 *** tokai|osx [~tokai@p54B828CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:23 *** GoneWacko [~gonewacko@c18041.upc-c.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:50:35 *** GoneWacko [~gonewacko@c18041.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 10:18:17 *** tormentum [~adam@dsl-202-72-142-139.wa.westnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 10:51:45 *** Wolfenstiejn [~wolf@h33083.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 10:51:45 *** Wolfy [~wolf@h33083.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:59:16 <Tobin> The stupidest online catalogue ever: http://www.harveynorman.com.au/site/01/flash/catalogues/id557/catalogue.htm 10:59:37 <peter1138> clever 10:59:38 <roboboy> gnight 10:59:43 <tormentum> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=7233267005433557427 << lawl 10:59:44 *** roboboy is now known as robobed 11:00:00 <Tobin> peter1138: That's not clever; it's frustrating. 11:00:41 <tormentum> i cant even read that magazine... 11:00:44 <tormentum> harveys sucks anyways 11:00:54 * KUDr_wrk kicks CIA-1 11:00:54 <CIA-1> ow 11:00:56 <peter1138> actual lol 11:01:17 <Tobin> Yeah I know. I just want to check out what kinds of prices TVs are going for. 11:01:34 <Tobin> My TV _only_ have RF in. :) 11:01:37 <Tobin> *has 11:01:38 *** Rexxie [~rexxars@ti131310a080-16114.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 11:01:55 *** Belugas [~Jfranc@216.191.111.226] has joined #openttd 11:01:57 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 11:02:25 <tormentum> lol 11:02:30 <tormentum> what is this TV thing you speak of? 11:02:44 <tormentum> i have a video play back device that is powered by torrent sites 11:02:50 <Tobin> It's the thing you plug your MythTV box into. 11:03:02 <tormentum> ahh! 11:03:10 <tormentum> i have a projector 11:03:11 <tormentum> lol 11:03:14 <tormentum> homemade too 11:03:20 <tormentum> works a charm 11:03:37 <Tobin> Or actually, it's the thing you plug your videoplayer into because it has RF out. 11:03:49 <tormentum> ergh i feel ur pain dude 11:04:15 <Tobin> Mostly I just don't want to bugger around anymore because I'm buying a Wii and the VCR has no more inputs. 11:04:42 <tormentum> i'm moving to canada from perth, australia... time for cable TV :P 11:05:13 *** Belugas_Gone [~Jfranc@216.191.111.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:07:19 * Tobin bahs at cable TV 11:08:20 <Tobin> I think I'll wait until after Christmas to get a new TV. 11:08:52 <Tobin> Should be cheaper then... 11:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> what do you need cable tv for? 11:16:55 <tormentum> i dont 11:16:57 <tormentum> but it's there 11:17:08 <tormentum> i already have the cable internet connected lol 11:22:49 *** YogSothoth_ [~john@lns-bzn-44-82-64-96-220.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 11:23:53 *** YogSothoth [~john@lns-bzn-55-82-255-146-71.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:36:31 *** ufoun [~ha@b07-305a.kn.vutbr.cz] has left #openttd [] 11:37:46 *** Hagbarddenstore [~hagbard@firewall1.driftbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 11:41:08 *** tormentum [~adam@dsl-202-72-142-139.wa.westnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:59:11 *** Hagbarddenstore [~hagbard@firewall1.driftbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:16:31 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat2.arachne.cz] has joined #openttd 12:17:15 *** Sionide [~sphinx@cpc4-norw5-0-0-cust184.pete.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 12:43:18 *** Rexxie [~rexxars@ti131310a080-16114.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: edgepro: Sanity is a full time job.] 12:48:59 *** Brianetta [~brian@82-39-52-234.cable.ubr03.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:50:23 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-213-249-186-205.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 12:55:35 *** ufoun [~ha@b07-305a.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #openttd 12:55:48 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-213-249-186-205.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:55:59 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-213-249-186-205.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 13:05:03 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:07:51 *** ChrisM87 [~ChrisM@p54AC506B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:11:25 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-213-249-186-205.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:12:06 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-213-249-186-205.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 13:18:04 *** Progman [~progman@p5091F2A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:36:09 *** MUcht [~Mucht@p57A0F4EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:41:28 *** Mucht_ [~Mucht@p57A0DEBD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:41:41 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 13:41:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:48:12 *** Zahl [~SENFGURKE@p549F1BDD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 13:48:17 *** SBT [~Tibeius@59-126-44-151.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #openttd 13:48:46 *** Turski [~tarmo@dsl-kpogw1-fe21df00-2.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:48:57 *** Spoco [~Spoco@dsl-087-94-050-2.lohjanpuhelin.fi] has joined #openttd 13:57:07 *** Zahl [~SENFGURKE@p549F1BDD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:03:08 *** scia [~scia@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 14:08:09 *** Neonox [~Neonox@ip-80-226-75-78.vodafone-net.de] has joined #openttd 14:11:37 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 14:19:50 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [] 14:27:46 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 14:31:41 *** Tobin [~Tobin@c58-107-61-130.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Tobin] 14:38:43 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:44:48 <hylje> http://science.slashdot.org/science/06/11/16/0337230.shtml 14:44:54 <hylje> quantum physics are so fun 14:46:31 *** Jhs [~jhsdunada@ti231210a080-8116.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 14:57:16 <Brianetta> retrocausality is cool. 14:57:36 <Brianetta> I want a retrocausal light switch - one that changes state two seconds before you press it. 14:57:58 <Brianetta> Handy for finding the light switch in the dark in the first place. 14:58:09 <hylje> what if you stop the motion 14:58:21 <Brianetta> It wouldn't have come on 14:58:22 <hylje> would the light have switched on at all? 14:58:27 <hylje> oh, good 14:58:28 <Brianetta> it's retrocausal 14:58:47 <Brianetta> It'll only come on two seconds before you actually press it 14:59:10 <Brianetta> any attempts to break causality fail, regardless of direction. 14:59:21 <hylje> could make some nice WTFs for newbie users 14:59:25 <Brianetta> Just try catching a ball that hasn't been thrown. 14:59:45 <Brianetta> A light switch that only works when you don't try to prove it wrong. 15:00:07 <Brianetta> This is my approach on time travel generally 15:00:18 <Brianetta> You can go back in time and do stuff, but it has already been done. 15:00:23 <hylje> ohh, a light switch you can argue with? 15:00:24 <hylje> cool 15:00:58 <Brianetta> Well, you can try to argue with it 15:01:09 <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: Fnuh? 15:01:15 <Brianetta> but like a regular light switch, that light isn't going on unless you press the button. 15:01:34 <Brianetta> Prof_Frink: That sounded confused. 15:02:06 <hylje> besides 15:02:21 <hylje> a switch changing state a minute or so before you click it.. ha. 15:02:44 <Brianetta> A minute is getting silly - it's no longer practical. 15:02:57 <Brianetta> Not impossible, just not something you'd fit to your lamp. 15:03:04 <hylje> :> 15:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> so, if the light goes on, you have the choice of 1) jumping towards the switch in 2 seconds, or 2) the universe exploding 15:06:53 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause2: No. If the light goes on, it's because you are going to press the button. 15:07:00 <Brianetta> It's not going to endanger the universe. 15:07:09 <Brianetta> It's not going to come on spontaneously. 15:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> but if you did not even know that you were going to press the button? 15:07:25 *** Turski [~tarmo@dsl-kpogw1-fe21df00-2.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:07:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> 2 seconds are a long time for a brain ;) 15:07:30 <Brianetta> Perhaps there's somebody else going to press it. 15:07:51 <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: Or, the switch was set to come onat that time anyway 15:07:52 <Brianetta> Fact is, if you're not in a position to press it, it's highly unlikely to come on. 15:07:56 *** Turski [~tarmo@dsl-kpogw1-fe21df00-2.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:08:15 <Brianetta> Prof_Frink: No, my switch won't have a timer. If it did, people would blame its behaviour on that. 15:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i can't get comfortable with that idea... i'd still go with the multiple universe way of timetravel 15:09:53 <Brianetta> Comfort schmomfort. 15:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> i.e. you can go back in time, but that will cause a fork of the universe 15:10:07 <Brianetta> Nobody said quantum mechanics was easy to understand. 15:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> so whatever you do, it will not affect the future you were coming from 15:10:19 <Brianetta> I think that Occam's Razor comes into play. 15:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> and you can't go back to that future 15:10:35 <Brianetta> It's easier to just have a single consistent universe than spawning new ones for every single quantum decision. 15:11:10 <Brianetta> You're basically positing that time travel isn't observable except subjectively. 15:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> you think you're going to run out of storage space for universes? ;) 15:11:22 <Prof_Frink> Plus, what happens when the universe table gets full? 15:11:42 <Brianetta> Time travellers from the future, by simply arriving, are barring themselves from their own "home" 15:11:58 <Naksu> Brianetta: occam's razor doesn't work for hard sciences, sadly 15:12:17 <Brianetta> Naksu: That's *natural* sciences 15:12:26 <Naksu> maybe 15:12:39 <Brianetta> and it doesn't help determine reality, just helps to make choices when it comes to multiple hypotheses. 15:12:48 <Prof_Frink> Naksu: It's quantum. Logic is optional. 15:12:55 *** Turski [~tarmo@dsl-kpogw1-fe21df00-2.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 15:13:25 *** Turski [~tarmo@dsl-kpogw1-fe21df00-2.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:13:33 <Brianetta> If we find that we have retrocausal entanglement after this: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/292378_timeguy15.html 15:13:48 <Brianetta> then it lends far more weight to boring time travel and fatality as I believe it. 15:14:01 <Brianetta> If we don't, it lends weight to many-universes. 15:14:35 <Brianetta> I'd rather not see many-universes, since that makes history way more boring. 15:15:56 <Brianetta> There's no mathematical reason why effect shouldn't precede cause. 15:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, there probably isn't, but there's infinitively many ways that would cause the universe to diverge 15:17:15 <Brianetta> Dos it diverge backwards? 15:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> in ways not healthy for men. 15:17:28 <Brianetta> Are there multiple possible pasts? 15:17:45 <Brianetta> Do you believe that there are more futrures than pasts? 15:18:33 <Prof_Frink> I like the idea of multiple universes. 15:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's a question very similar to "how do you fit all these people into hilbert's hotel" 15:18:46 <Brianetta> Time's direction is irrelevant, mathematically. You'd need to explain why complexity increases in one direction only. I think Entropy is only human perception. 15:18:48 <Prof_Frink> It means that somewhere, I understand what Brianetta's talking about. 15:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> you need a very special grasp of the matter to even begin to understand it 15:19:11 * Brianetta has been following it for about 15 years 15:20:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> a hundred years ago, people had problems understanding what infinity could mean, it's probably gonna take another century before people actuall understand the concept of time travel 15:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> +y 15:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> the biggest problem i have with time travel is, that someone could prevent the big bang... 15:22:05 <Brianetta> No, they couldn't 15:22:11 <Brianetta> First, it's the beginning of time 15:22:20 <Brianetta> so they can't get in front o fit 15:22:26 <Brianetta> second, the past can't be changed 15:22:42 <Brianetta> because that would break causality 15:22:47 <Brianetta> Likewise, the future is safe 15:23:12 <Brianetta> Causality can't be broken, but the direction in which causality happens doesn't matter. 15:23:22 *** tormentum [~adam@dsl-202-72-142-139.wa.westnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 15:23:30 <Brianetta> I'd not be surprised if the big bang is actually caused by some future event. 15:23:39 <Brianetta> It certainly wasn't caused by something before it. 15:23:41 <hylje> yay, infinite loop 15:23:55 <Brianetta> hylje: Not a loop, though 15:24:07 <Brianetta> Well, it it, but it ian't infinite 15:24:13 <Brianetta> It's only traversed once. 15:25:11 <peter1138> is that like a moebius strip with a cut in it? 15:25:16 <Brianetta> Here's a hypothetical situation for you to chew on: 15:25:30 <Brianetta> You have a portable, personal time machine, good for one trip back of about a minute. 15:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> still, the human brain is not made for backwards causality 15:25:42 <Brianetta> You hear a noise in your kitchen, and investigate. 15:26:00 <Brianetta> You go into the kitchen, but see nothing. You decide to investigate back in time. 15:26:08 <Brianetta> You activate your machine, and go back a minute. 15:26:21 <Brianetta> You accidentally knock something over. That's the noise you heard. 15:26:28 <Brianetta> You jump into the cupboard, and wait. 15:26:36 <Brianetta> Sure enough, there you are, wandering in. 15:26:45 <Brianetta> You see your past self activate the time machine. 15:26:50 <Brianetta> You come out, mystery solved. 15:27:52 <Brianetta> It's a loop. It isn't infinite. 15:28:15 * tormentum contemplates his navel 15:28:48 <smeding> how profound, tormentum 15:28:55 <smeding> also, hi everyone. 15:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> Brianetta: here's another one for you, same conditions as above, but when you come to the kitchen, you find yourself standing there, who of you two will have to convince who when to activate the time machine? 15:30:22 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause2: Does it matteR? 15:30:38 <tormentum> smeding: yes, it's called omphaloskepsis 15:30:38 <Brianetta> It's going to be activate, otherwise they wouldn't meet. 15:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> and what if you give your time machine to your future self? 15:30:43 <Brianetta> You didn't 15:30:45 <Brianetta> you used it 15:31:02 <Brianetta> You can't change what happens - that's not what happened. 15:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, what prevents that future self you meet being the future self you met before 15:31:26 <smeding> tormentum: ah. 15:31:36 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause2: It's just you 15:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> so you have two instances of you, one that is going to the kitchen, giving the time machine away, and moves on 15:32:05 <Brianetta> No 15:32:08 <Brianetta> One instance ofyou 15:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> and one that is using the time machine going backwards 15:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> over and over again 15:32:14 <Brianetta> intersecting yourself once 15:32:56 <Brianetta> You meet yourself, go back in time, become the other party to that meeting, then watch yourself go back, 15:33:00 <Brianetta> and that's it. 15:44:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> so, what about an effect, whose cause do not stop, but you delay infinitely? 15:44:30 <Brianetta> erm 15:44:36 <Brianetta> give an example 15:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> the neverending "ok, i'll promise to do it tomorrow" thing... 15:45:23 <Brianetta> If it's delayed infinitely, it doesn't happen. 15:45:28 <Brianetta> If it's delayed finitely, it does. 15:45:46 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 15:45:51 <Brianetta> If the effect can be seen, you know it's finite. 15:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, finit, but unbounded... 15:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> however far in the future you go, the cause could be even further 15:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's undecidable if it is infinite 15:46:43 <Brianetta> The future is as fixed as the past. 15:46:55 <Brianetta> I fit's infinite, it never happens/ 15:47:19 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:47:27 <Brianetta> Causality is quite simple. Any effect has a cause. 15:47:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but that way, you can determine the value of an undecidable problem 15:47:40 <Brianetta> What's an undecidable problem? 15:47:57 <Brianetta> Reverse causality gives you accurate information about the future, yes. 15:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> in that case, it's the halting problem of a turing machine 15:48:25 <Brianetta> That's true. 15:48:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> you know in advance, that it will halt. 15:48:38 <Brianetta> Only a lack of information from the future prevents you determining the solution. 15:48:57 <Brianetta> That hasn't changed anything. 15:49:31 <Brianetta> The halting problem is only a problem because we don't tend to experience retrocausality. 15:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can say, ok, i get to know instantly if it's going to halt, i just have to start it now 15:49:49 <Brianetta> No. 15:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> then i can use that value in another calculation 15:50:13 <Brianetta> You can't know if it's going to halt unless it does halt at some point int the future. 15:50:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> and if the original machine halts, you send the message back in time, that it doe 15:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> s 15:50:21 <Brianetta> If ytou don't bother to run it, you aren't going to get a result. 15:50:59 <Brianetta> The message sent back from the future can be either it halted, or, it was stopped without reaching its end. 15:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> i do run it 15:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> the message that it does not halt is never going to be sent 15:51:38 <Brianetta> That's right 15:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> as you pointed out before 15:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> so i get a message that it halts 15:51:49 <Brianetta> which leaves the two I just gave 15:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> or i don't 15:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> which means i can use that value in an other machine 15:52:15 <Brianetta> Yes, you can 15:52:19 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 15:52:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> since i know, if it was going to halt, i'd have got the message by now 15:52:30 <Brianetta> not necessarily 15:52:36 <Brianetta> " or, it was stopped without reaching its end." 15:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> a turing machine that does not halt, does not halt 15:53:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> it runs infinitely 15:53:12 <Brianetta> In which case, you're prepared to run this turing machine forever 15:53:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> because it _could_ always halt with the next step 15:53:24 <Brianetta> and mecahnical breakdown isn't an issue 15:53:34 <Brianetta> or just oplain boredom 15:53:54 <Brianetta> You're going to assume that your machine never, ever, stops running 15:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a theoretical machine, it does not break down ;) 15:54:04 <Brianetta> which is unlikely in the extreme 15:54:17 <Brianetta> In which case, in theory, you're quite correct 15:54:21 <Brianetta> you've solved the problem 15:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> but since the problem is known to be unsolveable, it cannot be possible to send such a message back in time 15:54:48 <Brianetta> in practice, you're never going to be sure if your algorithm would have completed. 15:55:14 <Brianetta> Of course it is 15:55:21 <Brianetta> it's just not possible to run your machine forever 15:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> and what exactly would prevent it` 15:56:06 *** Purno [~Purno@5351CE6A.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 15:56:09 <Brianetta> The end of time 15:56:54 <Brianetta> If you believe that time continues indefinitely, and that you can run a turing machine indefinitely, then YOU HAVE SOLVED THE HALTING PROBLEM. 15:56:57 <Brianetta> Congratulations. 15:57:16 <Brianetta> It's not going to help you in the real world, because infinite is something that can't be experimented on in the real world. 15:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> but "nothing in mathmatics is preventing time from being infinite" (to go back to one of your introductional statements) 16:00:01 <Brianetta> [15:15] <Brianetta> There's no mathematical reason why effect shouldn't precede cause. 16:00:08 <Brianetta> That one? 16:00:41 *** Bear [~IceChat7@pool-68-163-50-204.phil.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 16:00:47 *** Bear [~IceChat7@pool-68-163-50-204.phil.east.verizon.net] has left #openttd [] 16:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i altered the meaning, but it is the same class of statement 16:01:39 <Brianetta> You changed the meaning completely. 16:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> it has the same structure of the argument, you bring mathmatical reasoning into "the real world" 16:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> which brings both to the same level of "probably not possible at all" 16:04:25 <Brianetta> Your reasoning has completely eluded me. 16:04:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> so you cannot talk my theory down with the same argument, that your entire theory is based on 16:05:07 <Brianetta> I already said, if you believe that time continues indefinitely, and that you can run a turing machine indefinitely, then you have solved the halting problem. 16:05:41 <Brianetta> I just said it wouldn't stand up to real world testing. That's for mundane reasons, like making a machine that's infinitely reliable. 16:05:59 *** scia [~scia@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:03 <Brianetta> Nothing to do with the impossibility of what you suggest - it's perfectly possible, in theory. 16:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> i am probably having a hard time to express my true thoughts, since i am talking in a foreign language... 16:06:43 *** Rexxie [~rexxars@ti131310a080-16114.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 16:10:28 *** SBT [~Tibeius@59-126-44-151.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:06 <Sacro> god, your conversation is confusing 16:13:29 <hylje> quantum physics are like that 16:14:55 <Brianetta> Sacro: Get a subscription to New Scientist (: 16:15:52 <Sacro> i was sat reading the logs at college 16:20:33 *** Osai [~Osai@p57AADBCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:23:37 *** Gorre [dik@ip-89-102-198-103.karneval.cz] has joined #openttd 16:23:40 <Gorre> morning 16:24:06 <Sacro> Gorre: lies 16:24:43 <Gorre> ..mourning 16:27:14 <Sacro> :( sorry to hear that 16:28:39 <Gorre> (relationship-type of mourning) 16:36:26 *** Jhs [~jhsdunada@ti231210a080-8116.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: cya] 16:42:13 *** tormentum [~adam@dsl-202-72-142-139.wa.westnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:52:09 <Brianetta> Gorre: I just broke up with my goth club. 16:52:14 *** Rens2Sea [~Rens2Sea@213.211.185.168] has joined #openttd 16:52:56 <Brianetta> I've lost about 10 friends, although I can now appreciate that friendship was only a facade 16:53:38 <Brianetta> still hurts 16:53:48 <Brianetta> so you have my sympathy 16:55:08 <Gorre> oh, great, thank you 16:55:49 <Brianetta> (: 16:55:53 <Brianetta> If it's worth anything, of course 16:56:13 <Brianetta> Still, I have dinner tonight with my fiancee and her bridesmaid 16:56:38 <Brianetta> and spaces on the wedding invite list... 16:57:03 <Brianetta> Speaking of which, I have to head on out 16:57:09 <Brianetta> back later, everybody 16:57:26 *** Brianetta [~brian@82-39-52-234.cable.ubr03.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß] 16:57:46 *** Hagbarddenstore [~hagbard@90-224-32-143-no95.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 17:02:54 <Gorre> "How to turn off the annoying local authority?" 17:02:57 <Gorre> Yes! Thats it! 17:03:19 <Gorre> This is the second most important question right after "Where do we go?" 17:15:33 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat2.arachne.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:17:43 <MiHaMiX> Commit by glx :: r7168 /branches/MiniIN/ (depot_gui.c train_gui.c) (2006-11-16 15:37:33 UTC) 17:17:47 <MiHaMiX> Commit by KUDr :: r7169 /trunk/station_cmd.c (2006-11-16 16:18:00 UTC) 17:17:54 <MiHaMiX> Commit by Darkvater :: r7170 /trunk/video/sdl_v.c (2006-11-16 16:50:54 UTC) 17:18:00 <MiHaMiX> Commit by miham :: r7171 /trunk/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs) (2006-11-16 17:15:26 UTC) 17:18:17 <MiHaMiX> unfortunately CIA is on death row.. 17:18:26 *** CIA-1 was kicked from #openttd by MiHaMiX [wake up and work!] 17:18:38 *** ufoun [~ha@b07-305a.kn.vutbr.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:06 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 17:19:21 * Sacro kicks CIA-1 17:19:21 <CIA-1> ow 17:19:34 * MiHaMiX kicks Sacro 17:20:00 <Sacro> ow 17:21:38 <MiHaMiX> :D 17:21:54 <Sacro> D: 17:24:05 *** BJH2 [~chatzilla@e176111099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 17:28:03 *** Rens2Sea is now known as Rens2Eat 17:33:10 <Darkvater> hmm 17:33:30 <Darkvater> what shall add as text for a chat setting that on: send to all players, off: send to team 17:34:28 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:34:44 <hylje> "Prefer Team Chat" 17:35:00 <Darkvater> :O 17:35:01 <Darkvater> good one 17:35:27 <Darkvater> :{LTBLUE}Prefer Team chat with <ENTER>: {ORANGE}{STRING1} 17:47:32 <peter1138> YES NO THREE-BAGS-FULL 17:47:40 *** glx|away [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 17:49:38 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by glx|away))] 17:49:46 *** glx|away is now known as glx 17:51:30 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat2.arachne.cz] has joined #openttd 17:52:09 *** Patrick_ [~pitt2@saturn.retrosnub.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:30 *** Patrick_ [pitt2@saturn.retrosnub.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:55:15 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 17:55:27 *** YogSothoth_ [~john@lns-bzn-44-82-64-96-220.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:57:28 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host44-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:57:59 <Wolf01> ello 17:59:21 <KUDr> KUDr kicks CIA-1 17:59:45 * KUDr kicks CIA-1 17:59:51 <KUDr> :) 18:00:09 <CIA-1> ow 18:00:09 <KUDr> !commit 7174 18:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> !openttd commit 18:00:23 <_42_> Commit by KUDr :: r7174 /trunk/station_cmd.c (2006-11-16 17:59:02 UTC) 18:00:25 <_42_> -CodeChange: CheckStationSpreadOut() now uses MergePoint() for bounding rectangle calculation. 18:00:27 <KUDr> ahh 18:00:29 <KUDr> thanks 18:00:42 <KUDr> CIA has public holiday 18:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> emanzipation of the bots... 18:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> that can only end badly for humans ;) 18:01:48 <KUDr> seems so 18:02:57 <hylje> :o 18:12:46 *** scia [~scia@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:20:41 *** HMage [~HMage@85.21.179.37] has joined #openttd 18:20:45 <peter1138> grrrr 18:20:50 <peter1138> need a reboot 18:20:52 <peter1138> but i can't :/ 18:22:55 <Rubidium> not sure your brain & heart come up after a complete power down? 18:23:37 <Noldo> they are both quite dynamic when in action 18:24:36 <peter1138> Rubidium, it's windows 18:24:38 <peter1138> it needs activation... 18:24:43 <Sacro> haha 18:25:34 <HMage> vista? 18:25:44 <peter1138> xp 18:29:30 <hylje> how do you scroll up and down in screen 18:29:57 <Sacro> [ and ] ? 18:30:38 <hylje> not rly 18:30:47 <hylje> oh, ^A[] 18:31:35 <hylje> wtf? empty buffer :x 18:34:20 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [] 18:34:46 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 18:53:12 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@dD5E03E97.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:54:14 *** KritiK [~Maxim@ppp85-141-224-190.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #openttd 18:57:30 *** MeusH [~MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has joined #openttd 18:57:41 <MeusH> good evening 18:57:53 <Born_Acorn> MeusH! 18:58:05 <MeusH> \o/ :P 18:59:24 *** Cirana [~Peach@nat.kollegienet.dk] has joined #openttd 19:00:53 * Born_Acorn reads the SVN Digest 19:00:56 <Born_Acorn> yay newhouses! 19:03:20 <peter1138> wow 19:03:25 <peter1138> invisible had a brilliant idea 19:03:32 <peter1138> why did no-one else think of that... 19:03:53 <Sacro> ? 19:03:55 <hylje> what 19:04:52 *** scia [~scia@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:07:12 <HMage> peter1138: what are you talking about? 19:07:33 <peter1138> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=28446 19:07:43 <peter1138> ah well 19:09:07 * Born_Acorn gets peter1138 in trouble by pasting his obviously sarcastic response! 19:09:56 <peter1138> o_O 19:10:16 <Born_Acorn> NewGRF is now an entity! 19:10:23 <Born_Acorn> NewGRF's! 19:10:30 <Born_Acorn> (NewGRF's what? 19:10:37 <peter1138> yesa 19:11:07 *** PandaMojo [~chatzilla@ip72-197-231-130.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #openttd 19:11:47 *** Twinsen__ [user@86.124.4.122] has joined #openttd 19:12:57 *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY 19:19:10 <MeusH> Darkvater, awake! 19:19:21 <MeusH> !seen Darkvater 19:19:22 <_42_> MeusH, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel. 19:27:32 *** Purno [~Purno@5351CE6A.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:43 *** Sionide [~sphinx@cpc4-norw5-0-0-cust184.pete.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:29:21 *** scia [~scia@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 19:32:37 <Born_Acorn> _42_ should say something more useful! 19:32:48 <Born_Acorn> like "Darkvater last spoke yesterday" 19:33:11 <Born_Acorn> or "Darkvater last spoke whenever" 19:33:15 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01 19:33:17 <MeusH> It's possible, look :P 19:33:23 <MeusH> !seen Darkvate* 19:33:24 <_42_> MeusH, I found one match to your query: Darkvater. Darkvater (~tfarago@tin.liacs.nl) was last seen changing his/her nick from DarkSSHClone on #openttd 4 days 4 hours 50 minutes ago (12.11. 14:42). Darkvater is still there. 19:33:30 <MeusH> lol 19:33:33 <MeusH> bots 19:33:38 <MeusH> humanz pwn u 19:33:42 <Born_Acorn> That's a search though. :p 19:34:12 <Born_Acorn> I use a bouncer to be in this channel 24/7! Using !seen Born_Acorn won't return any useful responses though! 19:34:53 <MeusH> hmm 19:34:57 <Gorre> !seen progress 19:34:57 <_42_> Gorre, I don't remember seeing progress. 19:35:00 <Gorre> :,( 19:37:33 <Born_Acorn> !seen anything 19:37:33 <_42_> Born_Acorn, anything? hmm... I'm trying to remember... maybe... I'm not sure... no. I don't remember anything. 19:37:41 <Born_Acorn> :o 19:39:24 *** MeusH is now known as sex 19:39:31 <sex> !seen with_her 19:39:31 <_42_> sex, I don't remember seeing with_her. 19:39:36 <sex> ehh 19:39:39 *** sex is now known as MeusH 19:39:42 <MeusH> didn't work :( 19:40:46 *** Sionide [~sphinx@cpc4-norw5-0-0-cust184.pete.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 19:43:46 *** mikl [~mikl@tbv.faderhuset.org] has quit [Quit: In the end, all that matters is your relation with God...] 19:44:59 *** Spoco [~Spoco@dsl-087-94-050-2.lohjanpuhelin.fi] has quit [] 19:55:05 *** dp-_ [~dp@p54B2F656.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:00:18 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@82-43-56-32.cable.ubr04.croy.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:57 *** dp- [~dp@p54B2CBAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:04:13 <Born_Acorn> !seen hawt_laydeez 20:04:14 <_42_> Born_Acorn, you know that the length of nicks is limited, don't you? 20:04:28 <Born_Acorn> :( 20:04:40 *** Born_Acorn is now known as hawt_laydeez 20:04:45 <hawt_laydeez> obviously not like that 20:04:48 * hawt_laydeez wins 20:04:51 *** hawt_laydeez is now known as Born_Acorn 20:05:22 *** Rens2Eat is now known as Rens2Sea 20:08:15 *** Rens2Sea is now known as Rens2GoW 20:10:08 *** Tron_ [~tron@p54A3E2DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:13:16 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as nicks_can_be_really_long_on_of 20:13:37 <Tron_> slist_tpl<hashtable_tpl<obj_type, stringhashtable_tpl<slist_tpl<obj_besch_t**> >, inthash_tpl<obj_type> >::node_t> 20:13:39 <Tron_> this is plain sick 20:13:40 <nicks_can_be_really_long_on_of> damn, 2 letters too much ;) 20:13:50 *** nicks_can_be_really_long_on_of is now known as Eddi|zuHause 20:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is that supposed to mean? 20:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only person to think that nested templates are really ugly? 20:16:37 *** Tron [~tron@p54A3CDE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:16:37 <PandaMojo> Bah, that's not *that* sick. 20:16:47 *** Twinsen__ [user@86.124.4.122] has quit [Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com] 20:16:49 <PandaMojo> I've written much worse :D 20:16:51 *** Cirana [~Peach@nat.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:16:52 <MiHaMiX> Eddi|zuHause: i like nested templates :) 20:16:58 <Tron_> it's very simple: it's a single linked list of the nodes of a hashtable which maps obj_type to a hashtable which maps strings to a single linked list of pointers to pointers to obj_besch_t, isn't it obvious? 20:17:02 <MiHaMiX> Eddi|zuHause: but only in java :) 20:17:19 <MiHaMiX> Tron_: it's more than obvious, but thanks :D 20:17:41 <PandaMojo> Things don't start to get fun until you're using something like the boost preprocessor library and multi-argument template-template parameters :D 20:18:40 <peter1138> hmm 20:19:30 <Tron_> oh, and each entry of the (outer) single linked list is 1220 bytes large 20:19:47 <Tron_> (on 32bit machines) 20:19:54 *** Tron_ is now known as Tron 20:20:52 <peter1138> uh 20:21:10 <Tron> slowly i'm beginning to grasp where Simutrans is using all this memory 20:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause> anything this complicated looks like totally wrong design to me... 20:23:00 <Patrick_> lolsimutrans 20:23:24 <Tron> i'm not sure what a single linked list of the nodes of a hashtable which maps obj_type to a hashtable which maps strings to a single linked list of pointers to pointers to obj_besch_t could be useful for 20:23:52 <MiHaMiX> Tron: i know a reason: to reserve a whole lot of memory :D 20:24:08 *** DaleStan_ [~Dale@74.140.112.197] has joined #openttd 20:24:50 <Patrick_> "There's a hair on the frog on the log in the hole at the bottom of the sea" 20:26:12 <MiHaMiX> Patrick_: :DD 20:26:33 <Patrick_> I wanted to add more 20:26:34 <PandaMojo> besch? 20:26:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd assume Beschreibung == description 20:26:53 <Patrick_> there's a linked list of the nodes of the hashtable of the map of the obj_type to the hashtable to the gah 20:27:08 <Patrick_> in the memory hole in the bottom of the C 20:27:10 <PandaMojo> I see. 20:27:20 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: simutrans comments and varnames are mainly german 20:27:28 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:27:30 <Patrick_> dat is verboten! 20:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i heard that... 20:30:03 <Patrick_> All the german I know I learned from the writings of Häftling 174517. Probably not the most unbiased source of information. 20:30:39 *** DaleStan [~Dale@74.140.112.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:30:39 *** DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan 20:45:16 *** scia [~scia@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:22 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 20:54:46 <Wolf01> KUDr, i tried your station walking abuse fix, but does not fix if you set the station spread to 50000000000 and place the first tile near an industry and the rest of the station near the destination station 20:55:19 *** lws|Away is now known as lws1984 20:55:35 <glx> Wolf01: but it's not station walking in this case 20:55:39 <KUDr> Wolf01: this was not the bug 20:55:59 <KUDr> the bug was about something else 20:56:11 <KUDr> 50000000000: how did you set spread 50000000000? 20:56:29 <Wolf01> by clicking some times 20:56:34 <Wolf01> XD 20:56:43 <KUDr> XD? 20:56:51 <Wolf01> not 5000000 but i say 200 tiles 20:56:57 <KUDr> i can set max 64 20:57:14 <Wolf01> i have it set to 80 20:57:19 <KUDr> heh 20:57:20 <KUDr> how? 20:57:28 <Wolf01> i don't know 20:57:34 <PandaMojo> hax 20:57:49 <Eddi|zuHause> usually you can click on numerical values to enter a number yourself, instead of using the arrow buttons 20:58:08 <Wolf01> talking about the station sign, i think that should be easy to place it in the center of the rectangle which contain the station 20:58:17 <KUDr> if you don't exceed max station spread then this is not an error 20:58:37 <KUDr> Wolf01: so what do you want to be fixed here? 20:58:58 *** Jhs [~jhsdunada@ti231210a080-8116.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 20:59:20 <Wolf01> i make a mockup, wait a minute 20:59:34 <KUDr> Wolf01: now your station sign cannot be outside station bounding rectangle 20:59:49 <KUDr> this is the fix 21:00:57 <KUDr> Eddi|zuHause: but still 64 is the max 21:01:50 <glx> min 4 max 64 default 12 (in settings.c) 21:01:58 <KUDr> yes 21:02:02 <KUDr> and it works so 21:02:26 <Wolf01> http://wolf01.game-host.org/OTTD_related/station_sign.PNG 21:02:44 <Wolf01> the bottom one is what i want 21:02:57 <KUDr> Wolf01: this is ok 21:03:50 <KUDr> before it was possible to have sign far away (1000 tiles) from the station 21:04:03 <KUDr> now you can't do that 21:04:07 <KUDr> (i hope) 21:04:07 <Wolf01> yes, i know 21:04:12 <peter1138> argh! 21:04:14 <peter1138> i just started fgfs 21:04:23 <peter1138> and there's a huge 737 coming straight at me 21:04:36 <peter1138> taxing with it's gear up no ness 21:04:37 <KUDr> Wolf01: so what did you want to tell me? 21:04:42 <peter1138> +i 21:05:05 <glx> peter1138: it's nice :) 21:05:21 <Wolf01> can you make a locomotion style station sign? 21:05:24 <hylje> what 21:05:34 <KUDr> peter1138: fgfs is tv station? 21:05:45 <glx> flight gear 21:05:54 <KUDr> aha 21:06:09 <Darkvater> KUDr: what did r7169 exactly do? 21:06:23 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@dD5E03E97.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:06:34 <Wolf01> keep the station sign always in the station rectangle 21:06:44 <hylje> fsgds 21:06:45 <Darkvater> anything else? 21:06:56 <KUDr> Darkvater: if you move your station, then sign follows it 21:07:05 <hylje> AAA STALKER SIGNS 21:07:19 <KUDr> Darkvater: what else? 21:07:38 <Darkvater> KUDr: if you move it that the original station-tile is removed, right? 21:07:50 <Ailure> Hmm 21:07:51 <Ailure> anyway 21:07:55 <Ailure> the other day I was looking at that uhm 21:07:55 <Darkvater> not walking with having a piece here and another miles away? 21:07:56 <Darkvater> eg 21:07:56 <KUDr> not removed, just moved 21:08:03 <Darkvater> bus ------------------------------------------------------------------------- train 21:08:05 <KUDr> aha 21:08:06 <KUDr> yes 21:08:11 <KUDr> understad 21:08:17 <Ailure> A380 made by airbus on google 21:08:23 <Darkvater> so what is it? 21:08:31 <Darkvater> bus sign ------------------------------------------------------------------- train 21:08:34 <Darkvater> or 21:08:37 <Ailure> I was quite amused seeing a ad who said "Looking for A380? Find it on XXX" 21:08:41 <Darkvater> bus ---------------------------------sign------------------------------------------- train 21:08:44 <Darkvater> ? 21:08:52 <Ailure> "Buy today" or something 21:08:57 <KUDr> bus sign ------------------------------------------------------------------- train 21:09:14 <KUDr> or bus ------------------------------------------------------------------- sign train 21:09:28 <Ailure> if you meant that the sign belongs to the bus station 21:09:28 <KUDr> but not sign ---------- bus ------------------------------------------train 21:09:30 <hylje> big bang ------------------------------------------------- 0 ---------- you -------------- the present 21:09:35 <Darkvater> KUDr: and what about 21:09:35 <Ailure> ten yeah, that's how people abuse station walking 21:09:39 <Darkvater> --------------------------------------------------------- train 21:09:40 <Darkvater> ? 21:10:10 <KUDr> --------------------------------------------------------- train ? << wtf? 21:10:11 <Darkvater> because what you said above was already like this. The sign stayed where it was 21:10:19 <Darkvater> you removed the original bus station 21:10:20 <Darkvater> eg 21:10:24 <Darkvater> bus truck 21:10:29 <Darkvater> --- truck bus 21:10:34 <Darkvater> --- --- bus truck 21:10:36 <Darkvater> etc 21:10:40 <KUDr> aha 21:11:00 <KUDr> yes you are right it can still be bit away from the station 21:11:15 <Darkvater> 22:10 < KUDr> --------------------------------------------------------- train ? << wtf? << so where is the sign here? 21:11:18 <KUDr> if you move in 2 directions 21:11:22 <Darkvater> heh, I could just as well test it 21:11:26 <hylje> http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1163710466928.jpg 21:11:30 <Darkvater> -Fix: forgotten pointer dereferences (Bjarni, Bjarni, Bjarni, ...) o_O 21:11:49 <Darkvater> Bjarni, if you are reading this: you should not be allowed to code :( 21:12:39 <hylje> :D 21:14:56 <Darkvater> ah KUDr see it...good fix. station spread is actually limited to real station spread 21:15:01 <HMage> Darkvater: regarding r7169, you can ask me 21:15:08 <KUDr> yes 21:15:13 <Darkvater> who are you and what is 7169? 21:15:21 <KUDr> :)))) 21:15:23 <Darkvater> ah the station ;p 21:15:26 <Darkvater> dammit 21:15:30 <Darkvater> it sucks svn.openttd.org is down 21:15:32 <HMage> :P 21:15:38 <Darkvater> !seen bob 21:15:39 <_42_> Darkvater, I don't remember seeing bob. 21:15:48 <Darkvater> !openttd commit 7169 21:15:52 <_42_> Commit by KUDr :: r7169 /trunk/station_cmd.c (2006-11-16 16:18:00 UTC) 21:15:54 <_42_> -Fix: [FS#388] Station sign (and base station coordinates) didn't move along with station when station moved by walking. (HMage) 21:15:59 <HMage> Darkvater: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/388 21:16:18 <HMage> see the attachment 21:16:57 <Darkvater> it's already committed, no sense seeing attachment now ;) 21:17:09 <HMage> I know, just in case you wanted clarification what's what 21:17:30 <Wolf01> To "fix" we need to rework the whole station concept together with catchment area" aha! is what i need to write the show catchement area for existent stations :D 21:17:32 <Darkvater> no, I know fully what this 'feature' was and how to use it :) 21:18:22 <Darkvater> Wolf01: station catchment is rectangle from left-top corner to bottom-right corner. Even if you have 1-1 tile in there, or a an L-shaped station 21:18:30 <HMage> yep, and I could build two bus stations nearby, giving me thousands of dollars by just transferring (visually) 3 cells, catchment area was 12. 21:18:30 <Darkvater> brb, some James Bond on tv 21:18:49 <hylje> Darkvater: if you had a L station with just the ends of L as station 21:18:53 <hylje> liek ' . 21:19:06 <Wolf01> i know and what i want to do is to show the real catchement area, based on the station shape 21:19:28 <Darkvater> to show is not enough, it needs to actually work :) 21:19:39 <Darkvater> showing something else to what is actually happening is misleading 21:19:46 <Patrick_> ooh, that's good 21:19:51 <Patrick_> why didn't anyone make that before 21:20:07 <KUDr> Patrick_: what? 21:20:13 <Wolf01> if you fix the invisible catchement area i can make the visible catchement area :D 21:20:56 <HMage> Also, there's another exploit in multiplayer, this can lead to getting millions of dollars in just two minutes. You only need to allow buying and selling shares and two clients running on different companies. 21:21:16 <Sacro> HMage: its well known 21:21:56 <Noldo> shares don't make any sense anyway 21:21:59 <KUDr> HMage: how it works? 21:23:27 <KUDr> are you mean by repeating buy - buy- sell - sell ? 21:26:25 <HMage> no, lemme refresh my memory in a moment 21:28:17 <Patrick_> yeah, it's been known for ages 21:28:25 <Patrick_> that's why servers have an option to disable shares 21:29:24 <peter1138> not quite two minutes 21:29:29 <peter1138> you need to play for 5 years first, heh 21:29:43 <KUDr> and without fast forward 21:29:58 <KUDr> so it is not so serious 21:30:00 <HMage> 5 years is ok, but then you can do a very huge boost. 21:30:17 <KUDr> in 5 years you already have milions 21:30:58 <HMage> alright 21:30:58 <KUDr> HMage after 5 years you have enough money anyway - no more it is about money 21:31:13 <HMage> ok 21:31:19 <KUDr> you just build network 21:31:38 <peter1138> disable shares, really 21:31:49 <peter1138> nobody ever uses them properly 21:31:57 <KUDr> true 21:32:15 <HMage> maybe then apply a similar procedure for terraforming? To keep vandalism at bay 21:32:27 <HMage> and will harden the game 21:32:39 <HMage> (ie make it harder to play) 21:32:51 <peter1138> disable terraforming? 21:32:53 <peter1138> cool :) 21:32:54 <HMage> first 5 years you can't terraform 21:33:00 <HMage> or first 1, or 2 21:33:06 <KUDr> heh 21:33:11 <KUDr> good idea :) 21:36:01 *** ChrisM87 [~ChrisM@p54AC506B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:50 *** Jhs [~jhsdunada@ti231210a080-8116.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzzzzzzz] 21:40:57 <KUDr> !openttd commit 7167 21:41:00 <_42_> Commit by KUDr :: r7167 /trunk/train_gui.c (2006-11-16 13:59:26 UTC) 21:41:02 <_42_> -Fix: [FS#367] Crash: engine.h:194: RailVehInfo: Assertion (reported by skidd13) 21:41:27 <KUDr> Darkvater: did you see it? Another Bjarni's crash fixed 21:42:08 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:42:13 <peter1138> ah, that one 21:42:17 <peter1138> i mentioned it to him 21:42:45 <KUDr> long time asigned to Bjarni and nothing happened 21:42:52 <peter1138> are we getting rid of those buttons? 21:43:25 <KUDr> no 21:43:29 <peter1138> oh 21:43:36 <KUDr> they can stay 21:43:46 *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone 21:43:52 <KUDr> i'll make the code better readable 21:43:55 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 21:44:01 <Belugas_Gone> bye bye 21:44:03 <peter1138> it's not the code 21:44:08 <peter1138> (well, it is, but...) 21:44:17 <MeusH> bye Belugas_Gone 21:44:21 <peter1138> the train one isn't so bad 21:44:23 <peter1138> because it has "both" 21:44:25 <peter1138> but for aircraft... 21:44:47 <KUDr> yes, for trains only it should remain i guess 21:48:36 *** Turski [~tarmo@dsl-kpogw1-fe21df00-2.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:49:52 * HMage is getting used to openttd code, trying to find an elegant way to limit new companies terraforming abilities 21:49:55 *** BJH2 [~chatzilla@e176111099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.12/20050915]] 21:56:18 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:56:26 <Wolf01> 'night 21:56:30 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host44-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 21:57:24 <Patrick_> if it's possible, it's exploitable 21:59:19 <Sacro> try telling microsoft that 22:01:26 <Darkvater> KUDr: r7167 :( 22:01:37 <Darkvater> KUDr: we are getting rid of the buttons 22:02:00 <peter1138> http://www.custom-scenery.org/typo3temp/pics/083c3169a1.jpg 22:02:01 <KUDr> hmm, must they go for trains too? 22:02:01 <peter1138> hmm 22:02:09 <peter1138> wish it was all like that :) 22:02:16 <peter1138> for fgfs of course, not ottd :) 22:02:32 <Sacro> ooh flightsim 22:03:08 <Darkvater> KUDr: yes, preferrably 22:03:15 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 22:03:59 * Darkvater kicks CIA-1 22:04:14 <KUDr> Darkvater: i would let them go on other transport types only 22:04:33 <Darkvater> sorry? 22:05:16 *** Tobin [~Tobin@c58-107-61-130.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 22:05:36 <KUDr> like airplanes 22:06:17 <Darkvater> ? 22:06:22 <glx> !openttd commit 22:06:34 <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r7182 /trunk/ (47 files in 6 dirs) (2006-11-16 22:05:33 UTC) 22:06:36 <_42_> -Feature: Merge utf8 branch. This brings us support for Unicode/UTF-8 and the option for fonts rendered by FreeType. Language changes to come. 22:07:05 <Darkvater> omg omg! 22:07:06 <KUDr> WOW! 22:09:00 <KUDr> Darkvater: aha, sorry, they are only on trains 22:09:07 <KUDr> my misunderstanding 22:09:19 <KUDr> but it makes me unhappy 22:09:24 <KUDr> i like them 22:10:24 <CIA-1> ow 22:10:24 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [] 22:10:25 *** CIA-2 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 22:10:27 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 22:10:32 <peter1138> o_O 22:10:37 *** CIA-2 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [] 22:10:46 <Darkvater> oh peter1138... can you incorporate the czech namegen changes? 22:10:53 <peter1138> hmm? 22:11:06 <KUDr> Darkvater: no no 22:11:07 <peter1138> more? feh 22:11:13 *** BFM [~chatzilla@CPE-60-228-44-63.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:11:16 <KUDr> they are not complete 22:11:31 <KUDr> no czech name changes now 22:11:32 <Darkvater> no typing mistakes 22:11:56 <KUDr> with utf-8 they will be changed 22:12:03 <Darkvater> yes, that's why 22:12:22 <KUDr> as many characters will be added 22:12:49 <Darkvater> but there was a spelling mistake according to the guy 22:14:05 <KUDr> only one 22:14:07 <KUDr> minor 22:14:13 <KUDr> one y->i 22:14:13 <Darkvater> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=636367&aid=1597089&group_id=103924 22:14:30 <Darkvater> ok, you know better, just wanted it known ;) 22:14:44 <KUDr> i know him - i am at email contact with him 22:15:14 <KUDr> "a horrible typo ("Cydlina" -> "Cidlina" river)" 22:15:21 <KUDr> only one typo 22:15:36 <KUDr> the rest is just not using czech chars 22:15:57 <KUDr> now it can be done much better with utf-8 22:16:03 <KUDr> hadez will be happy 22:16:21 * Sacro doesnt think chezchs exist 22:16:32 <KUDr> he can now start translation of all ottd strings from the beginning :) 22:16:46 <glx> http://glx.dnsalias.net:8080/openttd/win32_deadkeys.diff 22:16:49 <KUDr> Sacro: czech 22:16:54 <Sacro> i was close 22:16:59 <KUDr> :) 22:17:04 <Sacro> whats the plural though? 22:17:17 <Sacro> 1 czech, 2 czechs? 22:17:44 <Gorre> czechs for sure 22:18:15 <MeusH> glx: what does that code mean? No utf-8 support in win9x? 22:18:20 <KUDr> :) 22:18:44 <glx> MeusH: no just dead keys are not usable in win32 since a long time ago 22:18:46 <KUDr> probably czechs but not sure 22:18:46 <Darkvater> MeusH: partial utf8-support in win9x, but that code does nothing, only nicer 22:19:26 <Darkvater> glx: yeah, good thing; almost forgot about translatemessage 22:19:31 <HMage> one internal question - CmdTerraformLand() gets called also by towns, is there a distinguishable way to find out if it's done by human player? (IS_HUMAN_PLAYER calls GetPlayer(), which asserts on town PlayerID). Should I modify IS_HUMAN_PLAYER() macro to check if ID is < lengthof(_players)? 22:19:47 <Darkvater> _current_player is what you need 22:20:13 <HMage> it's 15 (0xf - OWNER_TOWN) 22:20:19 <HMage> if it's called by towns 22:20:22 <peter1138> !openttd commit 22:20:35 <Sacro> Commit by peter1138 :: r7182 /trunk/ (47 files in 6 dirs) (2006-11-16 22:05:33 UTC) 22:20:41 <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r7183 /trunk/lang/ (30 files in 2 dirs) (2006-11-16 22:19:12 UTC) 22:20:42 <Sacro> -Feature: Merge utf8 branch. This brings us support for Unicode/UTF-8 and the option for fonts rendered by FreeType. Language changes to come. 22:20:43 <_42_> -Feature (cont): Convert all language from ISO8859-15 to UTF-8 22:21:05 <glx> Sacro: don't try to be a bot :) 22:21:08 <MeusH> Sacro? 22:21:11 <Darkvater> whohoo 22:21:19 <Sacro> glx: i thought i did quite well... _42_ was being slow 22:21:25 <KUDr> peter1138: what about table/namegen.h ? Will it be in utf-8 too? 22:21:40 <HMage> Uh oh, I should check cyrillic txt's. 22:21:44 <KUDr> or utf-16? 22:21:58 <Sacro> or utf-7? 22:21:59 <peter1138> utf-8 22:22:08 <KUDr> ok 22:22:29 <KUDr> with BOM? 22:22:48 <peter1138> no 22:22:55 <HMage> strgen should check for BOM's 22:23:13 <HMage> just in case someone modifies .txt's by hand during translation 22:23:19 <KUDr> i mean because of editors (table/namegen.h) 22:23:22 <HMage> (and testing locally) 22:23:51 <KUDr> yes, we should use BOMs 22:26:35 <Darkvater> da BOMB 22:26:41 <KUDr> i.e. when i open table/namegen.h in MSVC it just sucks 22:26:48 <Patrick_> muhahah, the dean-stark apparatus 22:27:13 <peter1138> open it in a decent editor then 22:27:49 <peter1138> hmm 22:28:07 <KUDr> decent editors use BOMs 22:28:09 <peter1138> namegen.h appears borked anyway 22:28:13 <KUDr> like MSVC does 22:28:14 <peter1138> *sigh* 22:29:39 <KUDr> czech part seems ok, but it is in UTF-8 and BOM is missing 22:29:53 <peter1138> no 22:29:58 <peter1138> it's fucked :( 22:29:59 <peter1138> sorry 22:30:08 <peter1138> catalan name generator is still latin15 22:30:19 * peter1138 fixes 22:30:26 <KUDr> name_czech_real is utf-8 22:30:30 <KUDr> and fine 22:31:11 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:31:20 <peter1138> yes 22:31:26 <peter1138> but the catalan one isn't 22:31:39 <MeusH> so we'll have to wait just for WT2 to allow utf-8 marks and we can have first WT2-produced utf8 translations? 22:31:40 <KUDr> i see 22:31:43 <peter1138> and mixed latin/utf causes editors to barf 22:32:08 <KUDr> not the good editors 22:32:16 <KUDr> i see there <?> 22:32:23 <KUDr> in catalan names 22:32:30 <Patrick_> I ? unicode 22:32:31 <peter1138> ok, not barf 22:32:33 <peter1138> it shows it fine 22:32:37 <peter1138> it's just wrong :P 22:32:40 <peter1138> and i'm fixing it now 22:32:49 <HMage> it shows as japanese symbol here in UltraEdit 22:33:08 <MeusH> maybye it's korean? :o 22:33:24 <HMage> I am not sure, I don't know any of eastern languages :) 22:33:28 <HMage> of the* 22:33:44 <HMage> Though I know russian 22:34:38 <MeusH> there's plenty of them 22:34:41 <MeusH> too much 22:37:07 *** _42_ [truelight@openttd.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:37:46 <peter1138> *sigh* 22:37:51 <peter1138> now i can't commit :P 22:38:03 <peter1138> got 2 to commit now 22:38:43 *** Tobin [~Tobin@c58-107-61-130.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Tobin] 22:39:06 <hylje> :o 22:39:19 * Sacro slaps Patrick_ :) 22:42:21 *** Tobin [~Tobin@c58-107-61-130.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 22:42:27 <KUDr> aha, svn down.. 22:42:49 *** Smoovious [~smoovious@c-71-205-140-67.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 22:42:53 <Darkvater> o_O 22:43:10 <Darkvater> I cannot input U" or O" in text boxes because it would stick out 22:43:25 <hylje> :o 22:43:33 <Darkvater> so it cuts it off and I don't see it 22:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :) 22:43:57 <peter1138> smaller font? :P 22:44:21 *** Gentoo-Guy [~bj@87.72.12.151] has joined #openttd 22:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> entire use gone, remove the commit ;) 22:44:29 *** MeusH [~MeusH@host-ip18-138.crowley.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:44:38 <Gentoo-Guy> hey folks is there any way to change the resolution in openttd 22:44:42 *** Tobin [~Tobin@c58-107-61-130.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [] 22:44:48 <Darkvater> Gentoo-Guy: resize the window? 22:44:57 <peter1138> or use the option in the options window 22:45:14 <Gentoo-Guy> jep but muy problem is that tehres's only one optione 22:45:21 <Gentoo-Guy> *option 22:45:40 <Darkvater> hmm this towlower() sucks 22:45:42 <peter1138> the one which says "Ekran Çözünürlügü" 22:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably means it did not detect any others 22:45:49 <peter1138> i should switch back to english... 22:45:51 <Darkvater> can't even tolower A' 22:45:53 <Darkvater> .... 22:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks turkish, peter1138 22:46:16 <Gentoo-Guy> Darkvater, ain't it possible to run ex 800x600 when runnig fullscreen 22:46:21 <peter1138> apparently so 22:46:27 <KUDr> peter1138: how can i set some unicode font in win32? 22:46:30 <peter1138> yes, it is 22:46:40 <Darkvater> Gentoo-Guy: game options > resolution > pick one 22:46:53 <peter1138> but your X config needs to have those resolutions too 22:46:53 <Gentoo-Guy> yhe only one displyer is 1280x1024 22:47:02 <peter1138> i think 22:47:04 <Darkvater> KUDr: openttd.cfg > medium_font_size = c:\windows\fonts\tahoma.ttf 22:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> funnily, in german "getürkt" (== "turkified" or something) means "faked" ;) 22:47:05 <Gentoo-Guy> ahh okay 22:47:09 <peter1138> hmm, maybe not 22:47:22 <KUDr> Darkvater: thanks 22:47:22 <peter1138> KUDr: yeah, by specifying the full path, until fc support is added 22:47:34 <KUDr> ok 22:47:39 <glx> fc == fontconfig 22:47:57 <peter1138> maybe i broke it :P 22:47:58 <Darkvater> peter1138: or KUDr writes fontconfig for windows with windows fonts :) 22:47:59 <peter1138> svn that is 22:48:21 <peter1138> iirc glx had fontconfig working with windows 22:48:27 <peter1138> but i could've been imagining it 22:48:33 <glx> a pain to compile it :) 22:48:50 <peter1138> no pain no gain 22:51:21 <KUDr> Darkvater: into which section? (the font path) 22:51:29 <Darkvater> KUDr: run the game once, then shut down 22:51:33 <Darkvater> you will see it there 22:52:14 <peter1138> so, uh 22:52:17 <peter1138> who to ping? 22:52:40 * Darkvater pings truelight 22:52:46 <KUDr> Darkvater: nope 22:53:11 <Darkvater> KUDr: well you do have to compile with WITH_FREETYPE 22:53:18 <KUDr> ahh 22:53:19 <Darkvater> and add libfreetype2.lib 22:53:22 <Darkvater> and the headers 22:53:26 *** Neonox [~Neonox@ip-80-226-75-78.vodafone-net.de] has quit [Quit: bin wech....] 22:53:28 <Darkvater> it's in useful.zip I believe 22:53:30 <KUDr> ughh 22:53:40 <HMage> how about setlocale() to UTF8? 22:53:41 <Darkvater> hmm, truelight is offline :( 22:53:42 <peter1138> more dependencies :D 22:54:00 <HMage> then tolower() should work 22:54:04 *** Gentoo-Guy [~bj@87.72.12.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:24 <HMage> or we need an utf8 lib for tolower() and other stuff 22:54:34 <Darkvater> HMage: no it doesnt, towlower is local independent 22:54:54 <Darkvater> eh by mad 22:55:01 <Darkvater> it's locale-specific 22:55:05 <Darkvater> it still doesn't work though 22:55:47 <HMage> towlower would need everything processed in UTF-16 internally 22:56:17 <Darkvater> that is not the problem, if I give it a wide-char it still does not convert it if it's not ASCII (english) 22:56:52 <KUDr> Darkvater: tolower() doesn't support utf-8 22:57:03 <KUDr> so you must use W version 22:57:24 <Darkvater> ... 22:57:27 <KUDr> aha 22:57:36 <peter1138> make your mind up :) 22:57:42 <Darkvater> I've been doing that all along 22:57:55 <Darkvater> decodeutf8 > towlower > *paf* 22:58:10 <KUDr> try API function (not crt) 22:58:28 <Darkvater> which one is that? 22:58:37 <KUDr> wait.. 22:58:44 <HMage> decodeutf8() ? 22:59:57 <KUDr> CharToLowerW 23:00:00 <Darkvater> he, svn really is dead 23:00:07 <HMage> KUDr: it's only win32 23:00:11 <KUDr> yes 23:00:25 <Darkvater> it's not on msdn? 23:00:28 <KUDr> API is always OS dependent 23:00:39 <KUDr> it is in MSDN 23:00:45 <Darkvater> http://search.msdn.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx?siteId=0&tab=0&query=CharToLowerW 23:00:52 <KUDr> static wchar_t CharToLower( 23:00:52 <KUDr> wchar_t x 23:00:52 <KUDr> ); 23:00:55 <Darkvater> I donnu...that pretty clearly says a 'no' 23:01:06 <KUDr> ask there without this W 23:01:08 <Darkvater> without w :) 23:01:14 <KUDr> but call it with W 23:01:40 <HMage> and we break windows 98 compatibility completely 23:01:44 <glx> I found CharLower() in msdn 23:01:53 <HMage> (there are no *W functions on win98) 23:02:07 <glx> HMage: there are throug MSLU 23:02:17 <HMage> unicows.dll 23:02:24 <KUDr> HMage: need unicode pack 23:02:34 <KUDr> then it works on W98 23:02:35 <peter1138> make a table of characters and do it manually ;) 23:02:44 <Darkvater> he 23:02:44 <KUDr> hehehe 23:02:53 <HMage> unicows.dll suffers a little from license problems 23:03:18 <Darkvater> that is the user's problem 23:03:20 <KUDr> HMage: the i suggest to simply f*ck the Win9x 23:03:37 <Darkvater> download: unicode support, don't download: no unicode support 23:03:45 <peter1138> meh 23:03:46 <KUDr> yes 23:03:49 <peter1138> i've been waiting to commit this fix 23:03:55 <Darkvater> and yes, win98 did work without MSLU 23:03:55 <peter1138> but as it's not coming back 23:04:10 <Darkvater> win95 only works 50-50 even with MSLU 23:04:14 <peter1138> unicode support isn't optional, heh 23:04:21 <peter1138> only freetype 23:05:09 *** Brianetta [~brian@82-39-52-234.cable.ubr03.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd 23:06:42 *** Progman [~progman@p5091F2A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:04 <peter1138> so do i wait, or give up and go to sleep? 23:10:03 <Darkvater> so, sent mail to TL 23:11:04 <KUDr> good idea :) 23:11:16 <KUDr> when whole site is down ;) 23:11:46 <peter1138> feh, he should know 23:11:56 <peter1138> automatically 23:12:12 <Darkvater> you broke it :O 23:12:14 <peter1138> i'm reduced to looking at livejournal 23:12:22 <peter1138> lies 23:12:35 <peter1138> it broke a good 20 minutes after ;p 23:12:47 <Darkvater> it was you! 23:14:59 * peter1138 unpacks fgfs terrain and fills his hdd up 23:21:37 <Darkvater> so 23:21:43 <Darkvater> while everyone is bored... 23:22:06 <Darkvater> http://darkvater.homeip.net/~tfarago/openttd/z_windows.diff 23:22:32 *** Gorre [dik@ip-89-102-198-103.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: *s1gh*] 23:22:40 <Darkvater> questions/problems/suggestions? Only function I'm not so happy about is FindFreeWindow 23:23:15 <Darkvater> it needs to find an unused window in the _windows[] array. Does this by looping each window and seeing if it's in _z_windows[] because there is nothing else to go by 23:24:45 *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Quit: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish] 23:27:20 <KUDr> Darkvater: sorry, it was CharLowerW (supported also by the Microsoft Layer for Unicode - MSLU) 23:27:57 <KUDr> or CharLowerBuffW for whole string 23:29:17 <Darkvater> too bad it's windows only 23:29:27 <KUDr> of course :) 23:29:31 <Darkvater> anyways I've made it to only convert single-characters (< 128) 23:29:34 <KUDr> its api 23:29:35 <glx> KUDr: CharLower() converts the whole string in place 23:29:43 <Darkvater> since it's actuall not need for windows but *nix 23:29:44 <KUDr> aha 23:29:47 <KUDr> good 23:29:51 <Darkvater> +y 23:30:01 <KUDr> aha 23:30:07 <KUDr> bad 23:30:57 <KUDr> why it is not needed on windows? it has the same problem with small font or not? 23:31:11 <Darkvater> no, the function is used for filenames 23:31:22 <Darkvater> eg when you cannot open Sample.cat it tries sample.cat 23:31:28 <KUDr> aha 23:31:28 <Darkvater> has nothing to do with the small font 23:31:39 <peter1138> how many utf8 data files are there? 23:31:41 <KUDr> got it 23:31:46 <Darkvater> ;p 23:32:53 <HMage> Darkvater: you need to call setlocale(LC_CTYPE, ""); 23:33:07 <glx> hmm many unfinished lang files don't have svn:eol-style set 23:33:30 *** Gentoo-Guy [~bj@87.72.12.151] has joined #openttd 23:33:38 *** lws1984 is now known as lws|Away 23:33:52 <HMage> Darkvater: after calling setlocale(LC_CTYPE, ""), the functions towlower() and such will work as intended. 23:33:59 <Gentoo-Guy> hey is there a logical explanaition of why the orders functions isn't working properl 23:34:14 <Darkvater> HMage: are you sure? 23:34:21 <HMage> yes, I can give you a test example 23:34:24 <peter1138> "" being what locale? :p 23:34:32 <glx> Gentoo-Guy: explain "not working properly" 23:34:46 <Darkvater> HMage: do it with U", A' 23:34:50 <HMage> if you did read docs for setlocale(), it means "disable hardcoded 7-bit string functions" 23:34:57 <Gentoo-Guy> my trains don't follow the orders that i have specified 23:35:44 <HMage> Gentoo-Guy: version, savegame? 23:35:51 <KUDr> Gentoo-Guy: punish them! 23:36:21 <HMage> Darkvater: what is U" and A' ? 23:36:21 <Gentoo-Guy> i have 3 stations 2 load at line ends and unload in the middle and the trins only drive from the midlle og to one of the end 23:36:44 <Darkvater> HMage: U with " above 23:36:45 <glx> Ü À 23:36:50 <Darkvater> . 23:36:55 <HMage> Darkvater: I tested it on russian 23:36:57 <Gentoo-Guy> v 0.4.8 no savegame 23:37:12 <Gentoo-Guy> KUDr, punish them ?? 23:37:13 <Darkvater> ? 23:37:35 <HMage> if you can give me UTF16 code for umlauts, I'll test them too. 23:37:36 <KUDr> Gentoo-Guy: yes, take big hammer and hit them on your monitor 23:37:45 <Gentoo-Guy> :D 23:38:00 <peter1138> why does Darkvater's look different to glx's? 23:38:09 <peter1138> oh, i see 23:38:24 <Darkvater> U+0170?c5 b0LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH DOUBLE ACUTE 23:38:24 <peter1138> Ü != ? 23:38:31 <Darkvater> peter1138: ? 23:38:36 *** CIA-2 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 23:38:36 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [] 23:38:41 <Darkvater> peter1138: which one do you see correctly? 23:38:44 <Darkvater> mine or his? 23:38:44 <peter1138> both 23:38:47 *** CIA-2 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has quit [] 23:38:52 <peter1138> they're just different 23:38:53 <Gentoo-Guy> HMage, v 0.4.8 no savegame 23:38:53 <KUDr> Ü 23:39:01 <Gentoo-Guy> ? 23:39:05 <Darkvater> all I see is a grey-box 23:39:10 <Gentoo-Guy> ? 23:39:17 <HMage> because they send it using different codepages? 23:39:39 <HMage> I don't see it properly neither from Darkvater, neither from glx 23:39:40 <glx> my client uses utf-8 23:39:54 <Darkvater> I set putty to utf8 as well 23:40:06 <HMage> mine is configured to cp1251, which is de facto standard on IRC's 23:40:15 <peter1138> for you maybe 23:40:19 <HMage> yup 23:40:25 <Darkvater> that wont' show you ???? 23:40:49 <glx> japanese chars? 23:40:51 <HMage> I have to choose, either I talk in russian, or I talk to foreigners which use umlauts. 23:40:55 <Darkvater> :) 23:41:00 <peter1138> besides, codepages are a windows thing 23:41:35 <HMage> if I select utf8, I can't talk to anyone in russian. If I select cp1251, I can talk to russians properly (I live in moscow) 23:41:36 <peter1138> everyone else just uses either iso8859-1 -> 15 or utf8 23:41:44 <peter1138> uh 23:42:10 <HMage> this is because windows is too popular here, cp1251 is being pushed everywhere. 23:42:34 <HMage> I had to reconfigure my debian for cp1251 too 23:43:14 <peter1138> how does cp1251 differ from iso8859-5 anyway? 23:43:28 <HMage> cp1251 allows cyrillic letters, iso8859-5 doesn't have any 23:43:43 <HMage> er, iso8859-5! 23:43:48 <HMage> i've read -15 23:43:55 <HMage> iso8859-5 isn't very widespread 23:44:23 <peter1138> bah, everyone should use utf8 23:44:29 <HMage> in soviet times, iso things weren't even here in computing. Before windows, it was cp866 on DOS and KOI8 on unixes. 23:44:50 <HMage> koi8 is still default on all russian linux distros 23:45:07 <HMage> if they don't do that they'll get a lot of people complaining 23:45:13 <Darkvater> indeed, setloale "" works 23:45:23 <peter1138> ????? 23:45:29 <Darkvater> so crappy MSDN doesn't mention that 23:45:29 <glx> ? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? and english at the same time :) 23:45:46 <HMage> they do, but in very small letters :) 23:46:04 <glx> but it's really hard to type russian on a french keyboard :D 23:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> wodka... maybe a good idea ;) 23:46:08 <HMage> and with wording that confuses everyone 23:46:10 * Darkvater reads page again 23:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: that appeared as ? here... 23:46:48 <HMage> Darkvater: search for "The following examples pertain to LC_ALL category..." 23:46:54 <Darkvater> "The case conversion of towlower is locale-specific" << all I see 23:47:08 <HMage> load setlocale() page 23:47:20 <HMage> or better, don't use MSDN, use unix manpages 23:47:51 <HMage> Microsoft can't risk breaking unix compatibility at source level, so unix way will work on windows too. 23:48:16 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: dunno why (all chars are correctly displayed here) 23:48:22 <Gentoo-Guy> if i have an idea for the game where can i suggest it 23:48:25 <HMage> glx: I've got questionmarks here too 23:48:44 <Darkvater> it's so gay...I'm supposed to go to another page where there is no mention at all in tolower and play around there...bah 23:49:23 *** Szandor [~2@host86-136-93-226.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 23:49:23 <HMage> Darkvater: they even do provide misleading wording - "Sets the locale to the default, which is the system-default ANSI code page obtained from the operating system." 23:49:35 <HMage> (that's for setlocale(LC_CTYPE, "")) 23:49:47 <peter1138> 23:49:49 <peter1138> hmz 23:49:50 <Darkvater> yeah; that tells me absolutely nothing 23:50:22 <HMage> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/intro-i18n/ch-locale.en.html - I'm an unix guy, this page is a lot better. 23:50:27 *** Rens2GoW is now known as Rens2Sea 23:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that was an empty box from peter1138 (probably not in the font) 23:50:31 <Sacro> ???? ????? 23:50:41 <Darkvater> smirnoff :) 23:50:44 <HMage> Sacro: looks like shift-jis or such 23:50:52 <Sacro> ???????? 23:50:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and i need a magnification glass for sacro... 23:51:03 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause: U+01C4, latin capital letter DZ with caron 23:51:10 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: thats narsty 23:51:16 <HMage> À òåïåðü ìîÿ î÷åðåäü ïèñàòü íà ðóññêîì :) 23:51:23 <Sacro> HMage: beg pardon? 23:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and that was not utf 8 23:51:28 <Darkvater> random? 23:51:28 <HMage> that was in russian 23:51:31 <peter1138> HMage: it was utf-8 23:51:40 <Sacro> HMage: not russian chars 23:51:41 <Darkvater> 00:51 < HMage> ? òåïåðü ìîÿ î÷åðåäü ïèñàòü íà ðóññêîì :) 23:51:45 <HMage> peter1138: it was cp1251 23:51:52 <glx> doesn't look russian :) 23:51:58 <peter1138> i meant sacro's line 23:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, nobody here uses 1251 23:52:07 <Sacro> Darkvater: hmm, it went from an A with a ` on top, to a hashed out sqaure 23:52:12 <Darkvater> 00:51 < HMage> . ...... ... ....... ...... .. ....... :) 23:52:15 <Darkvater> eek 23:52:35 <HMage> most widespread character set around IRC's, all russians on quakenet use cp1251. RusNet is a little bit better, but most connections go to cp1251 port. 23:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that supposed to be morse? :p 23:53:06 <peter1138> most widespread character set on irc is probably plain iso8859-1 23:53:20 <HMage> peter1138: sorry... I meant among russians. 23:53:25 <peter1138> right 23:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as mirc 6.17 came out, everybody i know switched to utf-8 23:53:36 <peter1138> that needs to change ;p 23:53:42 * peter1138 nods 23:53:48 <Darkvater> mirc :s 23:53:51 <Sacro> theres a lot more russians than there is peter1138's 23:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> because mirc not supporting it was the only reason to not use utf-8 23:54:20 *** CIA-1 [cia@cia.navi.cx] has joined #openttd 23:54:28 <HMage> peter1138: it's a very hard and long way to go. I know that most developers even avoid utf8 due to complications in character handling. 23:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and too many people out there use mirc 23:54:37 <Sacro> bash: æ: command not found 23:55:25 <HMage> regarding cp1251 (for anyone interested or bored enough) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows-1251 23:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> we probably don't care about 1251 :) 23:56:00 <HMage> yup :) 23:56:07 <peter1138> 3 ÷ 12 = Œ 23:56:09 <peter1138> hurr 23:56:14 <Darkvater> haha 23:56:21 <HMage> just be prepared that entries in webtranslator will show up as cp1251, even though the page is in utf8 23:56:22 <glx> lol 23:56:30 <HMage> (if you'll do russian of course there) 23:56:41 <HMage> IE6 is known to force cp1251 23:57:35 <peter1138> nice, totally incompatible with latin5 23:58:00 <Darkvater> hmm, what harms can be introduced by putting setlocale(LC_TYPE, "") in ttd_main? 23:58:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but this is kinda strange, because exactly people who often switch between character sets (e.g. cyrillic <-> latin) utf-8 should be great 23:58:45 <Eddi|zuHause> +for