Log for #openttd on 23rd November 2006:
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00:02:28  <Sacro> lolman: oh noes
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00:59:28  <PandaMojo> !seen Bjarni
00:59:30  <_42_> PandaMojo, Bjarni ( was last seen quitting #openttd 2 hours 53 minutes ago (22.11. 22:05) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 2 hours 4 minutes there.
01:00:11  <PandaMojo> :-\
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01:57:45  <Stormcape> My webhost's SQL servers have been up and down like a tart's knickers all week :/
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02:19:15  <tormentum> oh har har :P
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07:15:30  <peter1138> lo
07:20:45  <luckz> lolo
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08:59:27  <peter1138> *sigh*
08:59:32  <peter1138> "why do trains slow down at stations"
09:00:23  <tormentum> quoted from where?
09:01:01  <peter1138> and
09:01:26  <peter1138> because they have to stop, obviously
09:02:24  <tormentum> can't please everyone obviously
09:02:48  <tormentum> the one problem with OSS games... people complain endlessly
09:02:58  <tormentum> then you fix it for them
09:03:09  <tormentum> and then someone else complains they liked it the way it was
09:03:09  <tormentum> lol
09:07:38  * roboboy attacks thosesillypeople with an automatic bollard
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09:21:31  <peter1138> heh
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09:35:50  <roboboy> gnight
09:35:53  * roboboy folds out the bed and locks it into position.
09:35:58  *** roboboy is now known as robobed
09:39:40  <peter1138> hmm
09:39:45  <peter1138> function pointers
09:40:02  <peter1138> is the short form ok, or should we prefix with &...
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09:52:30  <Darkvater> morning
09:54:14  <Darkvater> tormentum: you're absolutely's a bitch coding for OSS
09:54:38  <Darkvater> peter1138: short form?
09:54:45  <hylje> what
09:54:52  <peter1138> foo = bar;
09:54:53  <peter1138> versus
09:54:55  <peter1138> foo = &bar;
09:54:57  <peter1138> basically
09:55:41  <Darkvater> I think we do it without & until now
09:55:54  <hylje> in oss stuff.. if someone doesnt approve of the way things go
09:56:05  <hylje> he can feel free to fork the project
09:58:36  <peter1138> Darkvater: no, it's inconsistent
09:58:41  <peter1138> some places without, some with
09:58:50  <Darkvater> ah
09:59:59  <peter1138> although probably only in my code o_O
10:00:09  * peter1138 ponders splitting off this directory scanning code
10:00:16  <peter1138> it makes newgrf.c masseeeeve
10:01:37  <tormentum> i feel like having a Red vs Blue marathon tonight
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10:16:59  <Nigel> OT i know... but Locomotion is rated "Mild Violence"?
10:20:09  <peter1138> yes
10:20:20  <peter1138> that's the violence it induces in the player due to its annoying UI
10:23:52  <Nigel> ahhh right
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10:31:50  <Zevensoft> ottd is rated medium level violence
10:31:58  <Zevensoft> for when stuff explodes
10:32:04  <Zevensoft> also with the demolition
10:39:03  <plod> fwoar
10:39:08  <plod> ive never seen locomotion before
10:39:48  <hylje> Zevensoft: thank god we dont have realistic physics and god mode
10:39:59  <hylje> Zevensoft: it would go straight to brutal violence
10:40:13  <hylje> ie. throw a passenger train into the hills
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10:45:03  <Zevensoft> lol
10:45:17  <Zevensoft> put a 90 degree corner at a cliff
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11:37:43  <Nigel> Terrorism in OpenTTD
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11:38:14  <Nigel> "Breaking news, 1000 Passengers die in a train bombing at X station"
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11:41:52  <hylje> yeah, we need more disasters
11:42:09  <hylje> pirates to rob planes and ships
11:43:36  <Nigel> haha
11:44:15  <Nigel> "OpenTTD Terrorism Alert Level: Red"
11:44:48  <Zevensoft> OpenTTD eXtreme
11:47:57  <HMage> "Terrorists have taken hostage a train with passengers at Ruby Bows Central station."
11:49:26  <HMage> "Terrorists celebrate... A bus has collided with a train near Hudson City!"
11:49:34  <tormentum> lol u guys are bad
11:49:56  <HMage> nah, it's just I've had too much sleep today.
11:50:24  <tormentum> terror alert must be low where you are then :P
11:51:45  <Zevensoft> terror alert here is non-existant
11:53:09  <tormentum> heh, we have one that gets changed from time to time... but then again, whose REALLY going to bomb Western Australia... it's like... a hole...
11:54:08  <Zevensoft> you could bomb 90% of western australia and actually improve some of it, whilst causing about  of damage
11:54:35  <tormentum> LOL
11:54:46  <tormentum> ur an aussie no doubt :P
11:54:53  <Zevensoft> heh
11:55:01  <HMage> "Train station - 200 anti-terrorists are waiting. Delivery rating: 15%"
11:55:02  <tormentum> i fucking knew it :P
11:55:05  <Zevensoft> some local yobbo comes out "me fence!!"
11:55:51  <tormentum> "well shit, fuck'n Terririst bastards... ahh well... she'll be right"
11:56:19  <Zevensoft> imagine if you were called Terry Wrist
11:56:29  <Zevensoft> "Hey terry, they're talking about you on the tele again"
11:57:04  <tormentum> got i love this channel... peeps from all over the globe
11:57:17  <tormentum> better than hanging in the #perth or #aussie channel of austnet
11:57:31  <HMage> ya.
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11:59:45  <tormentum> OpenTTD Al'Qida edition?
12:00:10  <tormentum> ooh! OpenTTD Cold War edition... transporting nukes around inside trains :P
12:00:15  <HMage> OpenTTD Counter-Strike edition. That'll raise popularity in a blink of an eye. :)
12:00:33  <tormentum> lol
12:00:38  <tormentum> OpenTTD:Source
12:00:43  <tormentum> distributed by steam
12:00:45  <tormentum> (the devil)
12:00:50  <hylje> :>
12:01:06  <tormentum> what're peoples thoughts about a steam like client for OTTD?
12:01:09  <tormentum> distributes updates
12:01:21  <tormentum> has an "anti-cheat" style system for multiplayer users
12:01:27  <tormentum> kinda like a universal login for OTTD
12:01:31  <tormentum> etc etc
12:01:35  <hylje> login system could be of use
12:01:41  <hylje> but cheating is usually desynced
12:01:46  <HMage> and to play OTTD singleplayer you need to be connected to internet :)
12:01:53  <hylje> and register your copy
12:03:26  <tormentum> not really... it could be a requirement to play on "authenticated" or participating servers
12:03:31  <HMage> and you'll need to buy another CD-Key once you're banned from the system
12:03:41  <hylje> monies for the devs
12:03:42  <hylje> yay
12:03:48  <tormentum> but if you wanna play on private servers you can use an unauthenticated mode...
12:03:53  <tormentum> something like that anyways
12:04:00  <HMage> I think that'll be too much hassle.
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12:04:12  <Tron_> it's totally pointless
12:04:20  <Tron_> you cannot cheat by design
12:04:30  <Tron_> there is no hidden game state you could exploit
12:04:49  <tormentum> mm true
12:04:53  <tormentum> meh, just an idea :)
12:05:00  <tormentum> an auto update feature would rock tho
12:05:10  <tormentum> or at least being notified when an update is available
12:05:26  <Tron_> for a release every N months? you must be kidding
12:05:34  <HMage> I'd recommend using bsdiff and bspatch (look up on sourceforge), they produce very small patchsets for huge changed files
12:05:57  <Tron_> if you can't be bothered to click a download link in about half a year, go away
12:06:16  <tormentum> Tron_: there are those who play only intermitently (my ex gf) who would benefit from something like that
12:06:42  <Tron_> nonsense
12:08:03  <tormentum> just a thought :)
12:08:53  <Darkvater> I think really if you play intermittently that you then check the website before you start playing again after months of not playing
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12:09:33  <Zevensoft> I cheat in ottd, I use wallhack
12:09:33  <tormentum> what about those who have been given the game by someone else and dont know that it's an active project?
12:09:43  <Zevensoft> you can use it through the spanner menu
12:09:52  <Zevensoft> lets you see through stuff
12:09:56  <tormentum> zomg haxx!
12:10:09  <Darkvater> how would they not know it's an active project?
12:10:12  <Ailure> I just press x
12:10:36  <Darkvater> when they get the game their friend says: "sweet, I have this really cool game, version 0.4.8 but don't bother checking on the internet cause it's dead"?
12:11:11  <tormentum> eg: i gave my ex a copy a year ago, and she was still using that same version a few months ago... she's not computer literate and doesnt know what OSS is
12:11:41  <Darkvater> well, she is your ex, so that about wraps it up :)
12:13:17  <HMage>
12:14:25  <Darkvater> bdiffs are useless if the project runs on this many architectures
12:14:35  <Darkvater> it's not like you have to download hundreds of megs anyways
12:15:00  <Ailure> I gotta love the amount of formulas there too
12:16:11  <HMage> firefox isn't more than 6 megs of installer, but they use bsdiff to provide patches for auto-updater
12:16:16  <HMage> via auto-updater*
12:16:38  <Ailure> well the diffrence is
12:16:49  <Ailure> that the mozilla foundation get bandwidth problems
12:16:54  <Ailure> as soon they release a patch :P
12:16:55  <tormentum> Darkvater: you ass :P
12:17:10  <tormentum> ex maybe, but loves her opentted :P
12:18:05  <tormentum> i might have a play anyways and see what i come up with
12:18:36  <Ailure> Maybe I fork openTTD and make a war edition
12:18:48  <Ailure> it won't be any fun to play though, becuse your network get's blown up all the time
12:19:04  <tormentum> lol
12:19:12  <tormentum> should make a multiplayer version...
12:19:40  <HMage> OpenTTD - AD&D edition. lol
12:19:46  * HMage throws a d20
12:19:52  <tormentum> rofl
12:20:12  * Zevensoft rolls a 2d6
12:20:12  <hylje> ohh
12:20:19  <hylje> a rts - ottd hybrid
12:20:23  <hylje> supply your troops!
12:20:37  <Ailure> OpenTTD already have violent elements
12:20:38  <Ailure> I mean
12:20:43  <Ailure> thoose poor ufo's
12:20:53  <Zevensoft> add a zero-g mode
12:20:59  <Zevensoft> where bridges arent needed :D
12:21:04  <tormentum> train zerg rush...
12:21:10  <HMage> "Terrorists tried to attack your coal train station... *throws 2d6* - they fail!"
12:21:11  <hylje> :D
12:21:22  <tormentum> HAHAHAHAHA
12:21:26  <tormentum> how very sad
12:21:27  <Zevensoft> I cast magic missle
12:21:41  <hylje> jesus saves
12:21:44  <hylje> and takes half damage
12:21:49  <tormentum> OpenTTD: World of Warcraft edition... *ducks*
12:22:02  <HMage> I'd play as a AsiaStar
12:22:04  <tormentum> "Your train casts frost shock"
12:22:33  * HMage goes to the edge of the world and doesn't mind he doesn't have a rail path that way
12:22:56  <hylje> Enemy train is permanently slowed. You win, you fucking imba shaman train.
12:23:11  <HMage> just imagine how very depressing is the view of a cottege near the edge of the world - it's all black out of the window
12:23:16  <hylje> :>
12:23:30  <Zevensoft> "Cant do that while stopped"
12:23:51  <Ailure> Probably would be more depressing
12:23:59  <Ailure> for the vehicles who insists on being at position 0,0
12:25:23  <tormentum> "Dude, can you sheep that train?"
12:25:39  <HMage> "Welcome to the Atlantic Tours! To your right you see a nice view of a Mancrowhattan City Park, to your left is an ordinary edge of the world, please fasten your seat belts."
12:26:04  <Ailure> would actually be cool
12:26:11  <Ailure> if the gameworld was round
12:26:25  <tormentum> and on the back of 4 giant elephants?
12:26:34  <tormentum> who in turn stand on the back of a huge turtle?
12:26:38  <tormentum> the Great A'Tuin?
12:26:46  <Ailure> gotta love though
12:26:56  <Ailure> each continent in openTTD
12:26:57  <HMage> "Terrorists have destroyed 1 of the four giant elephants!"
12:26:58  <tormentum> Mr Prattchett would be proud
12:27:00  <Ailure> is a squarish island
12:27:12  <tormentum> actually, he'd prolly try to sue, but meh :P
12:27:45  <tormentum> back in 15 or so
12:28:04  * tormentum walks to the corner of the room, thinks a bit, and quietly implodes... *puff*
12:28:37  <peter1138> lspace :D
12:28:38  * HMage sets tormentum's position to 666,666
12:30:09  * hylje haxes ottd a bit and sets tormentum's position to 2,4,-99999
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12:31:51  <HMage> you accidently set the wrong person's position - orudge has disconnected
12:32:55  <HMage> he has gone to hell :p
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12:33:52  <HMage> orudge is back from hell!
12:36:31  <Ailure> I guess the negative position overflowed somehow
12:36:47  <Ailure> or underflowed in this case
12:37:06  <Ailure> the landing much have hurted
12:41:13  <peter1138> hurted :D
12:41:32  <peter1138> i've done that in GTA3
12:41:40  <peter1138> somehow fallen off the map
12:41:50  <peter1138> you end up above it
12:41:55  <peter1138> with a heavy landing
12:42:03  <hylje> infinite wrapping :>
12:42:11  <peter1138> yes
12:42:20  <peter1138> occasionally the landing would be so hard you go through it again
12:42:30  <hylje> ha
12:42:54  <Ailure> nice hit detection
12:42:56  <Ailure> that is called
12:43:09  <Ailure> imagine if you could do that IRL
12:43:15  <Ailure> run into a wall fast enough
12:43:20  <Zevensoft> HL did that if you noclipped outside
12:44:10  <hylje> Ailure: collision detection
12:44:51  <peter1138> heh
12:45:02  <peter1138> i used to have dreams of that
12:45:07  <peter1138> after playing doom with noclipping on
12:45:20  <peter1138> used to walk around through my hous
12:45:22  <peter1138> +e
12:45:26  <HMage> quake 1 was that. if you noclip out of the wall and turn off noclip, you'd fall down, and under you you'd eventually see another copy of the world, but it would be uninhabited and you wouldn't clip with it.
12:45:43  <peter1138> heh, yes
12:46:25  <hylje> other games have an indestructible obstacle below the land
12:46:40  <tormentum> um... you guys...
12:46:45  <tormentum> hey thats not funny
12:46:56  <tormentum> let me out from down here!
12:47:00  <tormentum> hello?
12:47:20  <tormentum> hylje: you are so dead when i get out of here
12:47:35  <hylje> is that so?
12:48:17  * tormentum starts the +99999 climb back up to the real world
12:48:25  <tormentum> asshat...
12:48:26  <tormentum> lol
12:48:30  <Ailure> <3
12:48:42  <Ailure> seriously for two years or so
12:48:48  <Ailure> I thought <3 meant asshat
12:48:56  * HMage asks DM to teleport tormentum back into real world
12:49:08  <Ailure> There's NO such thing as the real world
12:49:11  <Ailure> heheheyeeye
12:49:20  <tormentum> there is only the matrix
12:49:28  <Ailure> and a infinite layer of them
12:49:50  <tormentum> the walls... the WALLS! they're closing in!
12:49:51  <tormentum> lol
12:51:44  <tormentum> anyone got any experience with DVD::RIP in cluster mode?
12:51:49  <tormentum> i keep having AV sync issues
12:52:17  <HMage> tormentum:
12:52:46  <tormentum> i'll take a looksee
12:52:53  <tormentum> lol @ the message from System
12:53:00  <tormentum> oops, wrong window
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13:22:55  <STE1N> I said it before, I'll say it again
13:22:58  <STE1N> you guys rock
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13:38:04  <tormentum> creating a bash script to backup my system... is there an equivalent to the "pause" command from windows under linux?
13:40:01  <hylje> sleep?
13:42:39  <tormentum> yeah thought of that one... but more wanting it to stay open until user has read the report...
13:42:45  <tormentum> so the amount of time is unknown
13:43:22  <hylje> so you want to wait for input?
13:43:23  <tormentum> ahh found it :)
13:43:42  <tormentum> echo "press any key"...
13:43:43  <tormentum> read key
13:45:06  <Tron_> for all "any keys" which happen to be "enter"
13:45:41  <tormentum> exactly :P
13:46:27  <tormentum> aight i'm off to bed
13:46:29  <tormentum> night all
13:47:35  <SpComb> tormentum: just use bacula, it only takes a couple months to configure it
13:48:48  <tormentum> lol
13:48:53  <tormentum> nah, rsync to a portable hard drive
13:48:58  <tormentum> easy and quick
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13:50:16  <SpComb> thing about bacula is that you have differential backups and compression, we usually get well over 50%, up ot 80% compression
13:50:42  <tormentum> depends on what you're backing up tho
13:50:53  <tormentum> i have a lot of MP3's and photos
13:50:54  <SpComb> well, general purpose servers
13:51:10  <SpComb> hmm... backing up mp3s...
13:51:11  <tormentum> mm, for them sure, but for my laptop, simple is easiest :)
13:51:16  <SpComb> I'd specialcase those
13:51:22  <SpComb> but yeah, bacula is a real PITA
13:51:29  <SpComb> currently it's half borked here, but too lazy to fix it
13:51:36  <peter1138> uh oh
13:51:57  <SpComb> yeah...
13:52:01  <peter1138> yahoo images
13:52:07  <peter1138> "franchise"
13:52:11  <SpComb> bacula is also incredibly complex, which is a bad thing
13:52:27  <SpComb> because you can never be well and truly sure that it's working like it's supposed to
13:52:48  <SpComb> I wouldn't mind it if someone made something that had the features of bacula but somehow split it up such that it was a lot simpler
13:52:52  <tormentum> rsync /home/ /media/usbdisk/Backup/ --archive --progress --stats --delete
13:52:54  <tormentum> easy :)
13:53:12  <SpComb> my bacula configs are probably over 200 lines, and that's with little to no comments
13:53:19  <SpComb> and the mysql db is several hundred megs
13:53:25  <tormentum> lol
13:53:55  <tormentum> ahh well, this works for me
13:54:09  <tormentum> the portable usb hard drive is 500gb and the laptop is only 80gb
13:54:10  <tormentum> so i'm fine
13:54:25  <SpComb> 447 lines for the dir, and then some more generic stuff for the the rest
13:54:25  <tormentum> i could do simple dd backup if i really wanted too...
13:54:34  <tormentum> unmount my /home/ partition and dd it, but meh
13:55:41  <SpComb> bacula basically sucks because of it's complexity
13:55:48  <tormentum> anyways, night peeps... time for more Peter Hamilton
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13:56:24  <smeding> hmm, i can't wait 'till saturday
13:56:45  <smeding> discovered some obscure offer from a store where one can hand in computer equipment and get at least 50e in return
13:57:00  <smeding> gonna try handing in everything i have around here and buy a laptop there
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14:06:54  <Brianetta> dd isn't an effective backup for restoration of individual files
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15:41:06  <Gorre> morning
15:41:11  <smeding> 'lo
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16:33:08  <Darkvater> hmm can anyone make any sense from the news-gui FIFO system?
16:33:39  <Darkvater> is it some kind of noble array that tries to act like an RR but fails miserably?
16:35:48  <peter1138> hmm?
16:36:15  <Darkvater> the news-windows keep crashing openttd under certain conditions
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16:36:22  <peter1138> oh
16:36:28  <Darkvater> too bad dominik wrote the whole thing so I cannot ask nor flame him
16:36:33  <peter1138> heh
16:36:44  <peter1138> why not?
16:37:00  <Darkvater> cause he is no longer around?
16:37:13  <peter1138> wouldn't stop me
16:37:22  <Darkvater> well, ok
16:37:24  <peter1138> heh
16:37:30  <peter1138> i'm joking
16:37:39  <peter1138> i've never had it crasH :/
16:37:40  <Darkvater> goddammit that fcking dominik, can't code for shit and now we're stuck with fixing his goddamnn code that faggot
16:37:46  <peter1138> hehe
16:37:47  <Darkvater> !seen dominik81
16:37:48  <_42_> Darkvater, dominik81? hmm... I'm trying to remember... maybe... I'm not sure... no. I don't remember dominik81.
16:38:26  <Darkvater> try FS332
16:38:47  <Darkvater> send some vehicles to the depot and either click on latest news to reshow again or just have news-history window open
16:42:30  <peter1138> MoveToNexItem
16:42:32  <peter1138> classic
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17:20:43  <lolman> Ello all :)
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17:27:10  <Sacro> oh noes
17:31:48  <kampasky> peter1138: ping? any reason why you didn't apply the patch you've given me?
17:32:50  <lolman> Oh yes :P
17:32:54  <peter1138> hmm?
17:33:08  <lolman> Sacro, how be?
17:33:14  <peter1138> oh
17:33:18  <Sacro> lolman: cold and bored, and missing my new pc
17:33:18  <peter1138> that one
17:33:25  <lolman> Well that's no good
17:35:00  <lolman> Why you cold? No heating?
17:35:05  <Sacro> its at my friends, waiting for it to be moved
17:35:14  <Sacro> it doesnt come on till 5 :(
17:35:28  <lolman> Damn :(
17:36:25  <Sacro> its warming up now
17:36:37  <lolman> lol toasty warm here
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17:46:51  <Sacro> hmm, getting nicer now
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18:14:04  <KUDr> devs: need you comments about the patch that simplifies build train/aircraft gui, removes filter buttons and isolates the EngineList from gui code -> << EngineList is there in new file (helpers.cpp) that contain both C and CPP vesions of the EngineList implementations so you can compare them and decide which one to use
18:26:50  <peter1138> cpp?
18:26:56  <peter1138> o_O
18:28:23  <peter1138> heh
18:28:27  <peter1138> CBlobT
18:29:09  <peter1138> single line function definitions do not appeal
18:29:15  <KUDr> yes, cpp implementation is only wrapper around CBlobT that does exactly what is needed there
18:29:39  <KUDr> heh i can write them on multiple lines if you want
18:30:01  <peter1138> BHdr?
18:30:13  <KUDr> yes header of the list
18:30:20  <KUDr> with size and max_size
18:30:36  <KUDr> then the list == pointer to items
18:32:08  <peter1138> -1 ?
18:32:20  <KUDr> where?
18:32:26  <peter1138> o_O
18:32:33  <peter1138> sorry
18:32:34  <peter1138> that's horrible
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19:23:36  <KUDr> hmm
19:23:37  <KUDr> [19:32:34] <peter1138> that's horrible
19:23:42  <KUDr> so rejected?
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19:39:53  <guru3> anyone have a work around for openttd + compiz?
19:41:23  <peter1138> export XLIB_IGNORE_ARGB_VISUALS=1
19:41:24  <peter1138> or somethin
19:41:32  <peter1138> or just use a sensible desktop :P
19:44:01  <Darkvater> so what don't we like about the C++ wrappers?
19:44:35  <peter1138> eh, mostly codestyle ;p
19:44:44  <peter1138> i don't like the C implementation
19:45:07  <peter1138> with the header entry and negative array indexes
19:45:11  <Darkvater> no, I'm talking about the C++ implementation, the simple wrapper
19:45:32  <Darkvater> KUDr only did the C implementation in case someone was 100% against the C++ impl
19:45:46  <peter1138> well the C++ implementation is pretty much nothing
19:45:54  <KUDr> but the C++ Blob does the same
19:45:59  <Darkvater> nothing as in?
19:46:14  <peter1138> perhaps i shouldn't look in blob.hpp, eh?
19:46:22  <KUDr> right
19:46:23  <peter1138> urgh
19:46:26  <peter1138> yeah, i shouldn't
19:48:02  <Darkvater> if blob works it sure beats the hell out of writing the same implementation a zillion times for each data-type
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19:56:23  <Darkvater> donnu how others think about it
19:56:25  * lolman has just set up an SSH tunneler for use at Sixth Form :P
19:56:32  <peter1138> wll
19:56:41  <peter1138> probably no worse tahn bjarni's ;)
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19:58:09  <Darkvater> he
19:58:11  <Darkvater> that's cruel
19:58:32  <KUDr> yes ;)
19:58:42  <KUDr> i tried my best
19:59:54  <Belugas> i can't voice anything, since my knowledge of C++ is next to nil.
20:00:04  <Belugas> i know OOP, but in Delphi
20:00:09  <Belugas> quite QUITE different
20:00:14  <Belugas> problem is syntax
20:00:38  <Tron> the difference is about nil
20:01:00  <Tron> class, private, protected, public, methods, attributes, inheritance
20:01:05  <Tron> same stuff
20:01:34  <Belugas> thnaks tron, but as I said, problem is syntax, at least for me...
20:01:39  <Tron> delphi doesn't do templates, though, but that has nothing to do with OO, but that is probably what you meant
20:01:57  <Belugas> indeed
20:02:02  <Darkvater> delphi is fun to rpgoram
20:02:29  <peter1138> so's intercal
20:02:30  <Darkvater> only the := syntax kills me
20:02:31  <KUDr> Belugas: templates are C++ version of macros
20:03:05  <Belugas> waht killed me is the ==, =, != in C :)
20:03:09  <Belugas> now, i'm used to it
20:06:11  <peter1138> maybe my ide controller is jsut fucked
20:06:18  <KUDr> anybody against << Massive Turkish translation update with UTF-8 (turkish.txt) ?
20:06:47  <Darkvater> I think the main question is: do we want BlobT to handle usch lists or keep to the old ways and just copy existing code and control over and over?
20:07:53  <peter1138> KUDr: beware of changes to the lang files since that was done
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20:08:12  <Darkvater> well svn up to rev, copy over and svn up
20:08:39  <KUDr> peter1138: i removed 2 strings that were removed from english.txt
20:09:03  <peter1138> Darkvater: don't be sensible
20:09:16  <Darkvater> :)
20:09:17  <KUDr> i guess the file is from the same translator who uses WT2 normally
20:09:39  <KUDr> but WT2 is bit impractical for massive updates
20:09:39  <peter1138> same guy did the turkish name generator changes which are already committed
20:09:54  <Darkvater> what did pasky want?
20:10:13  <peter1138> my hack to allow a dodgy grf to work
20:10:24  <Darkvater> he
20:10:27  <Darkvater> czechset?
20:10:28  <peter1138> (one that tries to draw empty sprites)
20:10:31  <peter1138> probably
20:11:01  <peter1138> abuses multihead to have a steam engine with tender, heh
20:11:02  <KUDr> namegen.h with czech diacritics?
20:11:13  <peter1138> KUDr: no, different patch
20:11:17  <KUDr> aha engines
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20:11:45  <peter1138> Darkvater: solution is to detect these empty sprites, and mark them as such (that bits ok)
20:11:49  <peter1138> i guess
20:12:03  <peter1138> but it still crashes cos it still tries to draw it
20:12:21  <peter1138> it crashes with a missing sprite assertion rather than some buffer overflow, though
20:12:29  <Darkvater> I'm serious about the CPP (BlobT) question. Either that, or calculate size before allocation, allocate copy (fixed size), or find something else
20:12:33  <Darkvater> what does ttdp do?
20:12:38  <peter1138> no idea
20:13:01  <Darkvater> do you have a link to that file? I can load it
20:13:03  <Darkvater> and see
20:13:53  <peter1138>
20:13:56  <peter1138> there, i think
20:14:12  <peter1138> i think that's the one...
20:15:37  <Darkvater> hehe
20:15:38  <Darkvater> CSDSet fixed and currently in version 1.4.1!
20:17:36  <peter1138> i'm glad it's fixe
20:17:37  <peter1138> +d
20:17:43  <peter1138> whatever was fixed ;p
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20:19:01  <Darkvater> well it doesn't crash
20:19:16  <Darkvater> although I just opened the build-window
20:19:18  <Darkvater> brb
20:19:20  <peter1138> what yeah?
20:19:25  <peter1138> err
20:19:27  <peter1138> what year?
20:19:30  <Darkvater> 1950
20:20:09  <kampasky> peter1138: I played a full game from 1950 to 2050 with CSDset 1.4.1 and the patch you gave me
20:20:13  <kampasky> worked like a charm
20:20:14  <Darkvater> neither in 2000
20:20:38  <peter1138> Darkvater: ottd or ttdp? heh
20:20:49  <Darkvater> ttdp
20:20:51  <peter1138> oh
20:20:55  <peter1138> well that much we know ;P
20:20:57  <Darkvater> let's see ottd
20:21:12  <kampasky> ottd either crashes or draws random garbage in build window
20:21:22  <kampasky> I wanted to look at ttdp's code to see how it handles those missing sprites
20:21:24  <kampasky> but didn't get to it
20:21:57  <Darkvater> doesn't crash either
20:22:01  <Darkvater> draws properly
20:22:28  <Darkvater> although csdset wagon y-offsets are wrong in depot window; 2 pixels too high
20:22:37  <kampasky> Darkvater: what year?
20:22:40  <Darkvater> 2000
20:22:43  <kampasky> try 1970 or something
20:22:45  <Darkvater> normal rail
20:23:07  <kampasky> "Ctyrkolak" was IIRC specifically one problematic engine
20:23:11  <kampasky> it was steam
20:23:15  <Darkvater> I have vehicles don't expire on, so it doesn't matter
20:23:34  <Darkvater> ugh, when I build it I get garbage on screen
20:24:02  <peter1138> i still think the set should be fixed, heh
20:24:23  <peter1138> otoh, we shouldn't crash like that
20:24:43  <Darkvater> it doesn't crash atm and garbage is also not consistent
20:24:55  <peter1138> Darkvater: of course it's inconsistent
20:24:58  <Darkvater> :)
20:25:22  <Darkvater> so it's not really fixed
20:25:25  <Darkvater> ok, really brb
20:25:26  <kampasky> peter1138: so, let me ask fourth time - any reason you didn't commit the patch? :)
20:25:38  <peter1138> well
20:25:43  <peter1138> if i check a sprite exists there
20:25:48  <peter1138> why don't i check everywhere?
20:26:40  <kampasky> that's a good point
20:26:48  <kampasky> because you're (we're) lazy? :)
20:27:35  <glx> it was a quick fix for your particular problem :)
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20:29:36  <peter1138> gah, pio4 sucks
20:30:23  <peter1138> right, now it crashes property
20:30:23  <peter1138> err
20:30:24  <peter1138> properly
20:30:28  <peter1138> $ ./openttd
20:30:28  <peter1138> Error: Tried to load non-existing sprite #7179.
20:30:28  <peter1138> Probable cause: Wrong/missing NewGRFs
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20:55:06  <UnderBuilder> hey I can't understand why there is no even an old version of ottd nightlies instead of nothing
20:55:15  <peter1138> well there is
20:55:36  <UnderBuilder> but not the latest compiled sucessfully
20:56:03  <peter1138> under archive builds...
20:56:10  <peter1138> r7194
20:58:39  <UnderBuilder> and miniin??
20:59:12  <glx> miniin builds are not archived
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21:01:23  <UnderBuilder> well miniin don't have archive builds so there is no even last compiled version! what a shame! but why dissapeared instead of putting an old version there?
21:01:35  <UnderBuilder> best something than nothing
21:02:19  <peter1138> i guess it removes the old stuff before compiling the new stuff
21:02:37  <peter1138> but you've still got the r7194 to play with
21:02:48  <UnderBuilder> but no miniin...
21:02:55  <peter1138> diddums
21:03:37  <UnderBuilder> and why not change the compile farm so only remove the old version at the end of a sucessful compiling?
21:04:40  <peter1138> because it's not important enough, probably
21:04:42  <Rubidium> that way failed compilations go unnoticed _and_ people start complaining that the version on nightly page isn't the same version as the other version on the nightly page
21:05:09  <peter1138> nothing stopping you compiling it yourself, of course
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21:12:49  <Nigel> UnderBuilder, i have a copy of a MiniIN if you REALLY need it
21:13:03  <peter1138> presumably he's still got one
21:13:45  <Nigel> UnderBuilder, or i, in theory could build you a copy
21:13:59  <peter1138> so could UnderBuilder.
21:14:09  <peter1138> there are guides to setting it all up, heh
21:15:12  <Nigel> UnderBuilder, i'm assuming you want Win32?
21:15:20  *** Osai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:15:29  <UnderBuilder> well I am not so desesperate, in reality I only has got a doubt about why isn't there a old win32 exe
21:15:37  <glx> Nigel: only win32 and morphos failed :)
21:15:47  *** UnderBuilder [~chatzilla@] has quit [Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox]]
21:15:59  <peter1138> i've yet to see any morphos users complaining ;)
21:16:05  <Nigel> last minin i have is 6500
21:16:10  <Nigel> *miniin
21:16:56  <Nigel> now i just build and run it in debug mode :P
21:19:48  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7242 /trunk/spritecache.c: -Fix: Don't load 1-byte pseudo sprites, as used in some NewGRF sets. If the sprite is ever drawn this will result in a "missing sprite" error instead of undefined misbehaviour leading to segmentation faults...
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21:31:17  <CIA-1> glx * r7243 /branches/MiniIN/ (57 files in 5 dirs): [MiniIN] -Sync with trunk r7216:r7242
21:31:44  <Nigel> glx, ahhh! i just made the project file fix on my local machine
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21:45:04  <HMage> can anyone point me to a forum thread what in YAPF broke MSVC6 compiler support?
21:47:33  <Nigel> HMage, the reason is on the wiki
21:48:11  <HMage> it only writes "YAPF was merged and requires template features that VC++ 6.0 does not support properly.", which templates?
21:48:13  <Nigel> it's something to do with the templates used
21:48:37  <Nigel> no clue sorry
21:49:54  <peter1138> it uses templates
21:49:59  <peter1138> which vc++ 6.0 doesn't support
21:50:00  <peter1138> apparently
21:50:15  <Rubidium> HMage: looks like YAPF is designed to be a series of templates
21:50:39  <HMage> vc6 supports STL quite properly, and even if it fails, there's always an option to plug STLport instead of native implementation.
21:50:45  <Darkvater> I don't know why you are so intent on VS6, VS2005 express is free and available
21:50:45  <smeding> it's a series of tubes.
21:50:51  <smeding> also, see you all tomorrow.
21:50:57  <peter1138> TOOBS
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21:51:12  <Darkvater> VC6 has a crappy C compiler and even without C++/YAPF there were quite a few workarounds to get it to compile
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21:52:09  <Darkvater> but
21:52:12  <Darkvater> nini
21:52:14  <Darkvater> sleep :)
21:52:29  <peter1138> nini
21:52:40  <Darkvater> (tm) (copy) peter1138
21:52:54  <peter1138> (TM) ©
21:55:28  * HMage is a long-time vc6+stlport user. no problemos on other people's template code.
21:55:28  <HMage> what if I, say, revive msvc6 and make it compile the code properly (with stlport), and add a requirement for stlport for msvc6 instead of just plain abandoning it?
21:55:30  <HMage> vc6SP5 with processor pack improves the compiler quite a lot, it compiles 0.4.8 code perfectly without any workarounds. What workarounds are you talking about?
21:55:32  <HMage> VS2005 express requires me to install .NET 2.0 - which makes me unable to use ASIO-enabled audio software.
21:55:44  <HMage> and there are many people still believe that vs6 has strengths that 2005 one hasn't. Though 2005 is a lot closer to vs6 than 2003 one.
21:56:04  <Rubidium> HMage: I think you should take a closer look at stdafx.h or so
21:57:20  <peter1138> .Net 2 prevents ASIO? huh?
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21:58:00  <HMage> anyway, just let me do the work if you don't mind
21:58:08  <Naksu> it's gpl
21:58:15  <Naksu> :)
21:58:53  <peter1138> Rubidium: to be fair, that contains workarounds for a lot of stuff other than vc6, heh
21:59:08  <Rubidium> true
22:02:56  <HMage> as far as I see, these are standard for all MSVC compilers. In 2005 they've actually renamed even more functions with an underscore before it. You have to shut up it's warnings about unsafe memory and string manipulations.
22:03:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> from what i remember was that vs6 could not handle nested templates
22:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> that's why it was dropped
22:03:59  <HMage> I'll check.
22:04:44  <HMage> quite funny that the header file that is included by everyone is called MSVC way - "stdafx.h" :)
22:05:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> and 0.4.8 code compiles, because it already contains the vs6 workarounds
22:06:05  <HMage> about .NET 2 vs ASIO - .NET 2 enables kernel features that cause very short (~1ms) 100% cpu spikes, on 64sample latency it become impossible to have audio skip-free with .NET
22:06:14  <HMage> becomes*
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22:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> err... when audio skips you might try increasing the buffer
22:07:37  <HMage> and increasing the latency too
22:07:47  <HMage> this is a no solution for realtime audio processing
22:07:53  <HMage> a no-no*
22:09:45  <HMage> as for MSVC6 borkness - these workarounds are actually in libraries, and these workarounds have to exist on msvc2005 too. The only warnings that are disabled on msvc6 are sign/unsign loss of data warnings and truncations from type1 to type2. I would actually prefer not to disable them.
22:09:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i can't help you there, i have never had the need for that kind of low audio latency
22:10:22  <HMage> ask any audio engineer if you meet any.
22:10:54  <HMage> (besides me of course)
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22:15:11  <CIA-1> glx * r7244 /branches/makefile_rewrite/configure: [MakefileRewrite] -Fix: convert \r to \n before parsing source.list
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22:18:43  <KUDr> HMage: what exactly you want to know about YAPF vs. VC6?
22:18:58  <HMage> which template had failed with what error?
22:19:18  <KUDr> YAPF uses template arguments of template type
22:19:50  <KUDr> also static member initializations don't work properly there (dua to bug)
22:19:53  <KUDr> due
22:20:51  <KUDr> it was possible to write it without those features but the code was even more cryptic
22:21:04  <HMage> ok, I'll try with stlport.
22:21:15  <KUDr> but there were continously problems with VC6 even before
22:21:29  <KUDr> why stl port?
22:21:39  <HMage> it replaces stl implementation of msvc completely
22:21:42  <KUDr> is has nothing to do with stl
22:21:57  <KUDr> it is problem of compiler
22:22:05  <KUDr> not libraries
22:22:14  <HMage> stl is not a library :) they're just headers
22:22:29  <KUDr> standard template library
22:22:32  <HMage> anyway even if it's not stl I'll try to see that
22:22:33  <peter1138> stl = standard template library, no?
22:22:47  <HMage> yes, but they do not require any .lib in process
22:22:52  <KUDr> because it is template library it must be delivered as set of headers
22:23:03  <KUDr> .lib is object library
22:23:18  <KUDr> you are bit confused it seems
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22:24:15  <KUDr> look into support objects in the YAPF (arrayT, fixedsizearrayT, blobT and so on)
22:24:21  <KUDr> it is also library
22:24:27  <KUDr> and also in headers
22:25:54  <HMage> I was more picky to wording due to the fact that here in russian language we denote 'library' only those, that compile into .lib or produce object code. Therefore STL wasn't an object library (in russian the meanings for dictionary translation of term 'library' are a little bit different).
22:26:02  <HMage> sorry about that.
22:26:20  <KUDr> ah ok
22:26:30  <KUDr> but we are clear now i guess
22:26:34  <HMage> yup
22:26:58  <KUDr> so the stl wasn't problem
22:27:08  <KUDr> YAPF doesn't use them
22:27:20  <KUDr> they use allocations heavily
22:27:35  <KUDr> so the memory would be fragmented
22:27:36  <HMage> anyway, nobody besides me is interested in msvc6 support, it seems.
22:27:45  <KUDr> and program would slow down
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22:28:08  <KUDr> you can rip out YAPF
22:28:15  <KUDr> and then compile
22:28:38  <KUDr> probably only some minor fixes will be needed and VC6 would work then
22:28:45  <HMage> I'll try to make YAPF work on vc6.
22:29:02  <HMage> and wait till 0.5 is released. I'm sure I'm not the only one that uses msvc6.
22:29:48  <KUDr> sure
22:29:57  <KUDr> but VC2005 is for free
22:30:10  <KUDr> so why to bother with such old crap
22:30:52  <KUDr> i would like to understand what can motivate people to resist the evolution this way
22:31:01  <HMage> there's a proverb in russian "The only thing that is free is cheese in a mousetrap.". VC2005 has many downs, and inherited those of VC6. The ones that VC6 has I know how to deal. Many people still use VC6 since it's the last one that doesn't use .NET
22:31:37  <KUDr> hmm
22:31:46  <KUDr> then try linux
22:31:48  <peter1138> what's the best way to get a decent russian translation, heh
22:32:56  <HMage> I'll wait till .NET is ironed down in Vista (the first OS to include .NET with it) and move there once it doesn't have it's problems I encounter.
22:33:36  <peter1138> window server 2003 r2 comes with .net
22:34:10  <KUDr> HMage: where did you read that VC2005 uses .NET?
22:34:31  <KUDr> it can support .NET but CLI.exe is not started
22:34:46  <HMage> it just installed .net 2.0 on my pc when I tried to install it, it didn't even ask me whether I want it or not.
22:35:01  <KUDr> and?
22:35:20  <KUDr> what is wrong with it installed only but not used?
22:35:23  <peter1138> .Net 2 isn't exactly evil spyware or anyething
22:35:25  <HMage> lost another day reinstalling all my stuff along with windows xp. Audio started stuttering like hell.
22:35:52  <KUDr> why others have no such problems?
22:35:57  <HMage> you use asio?
22:36:05  <KUDr> no
22:36:20  <KUDr> wtf is asio?
22:36:33  <HMage> Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of having two PC's. one for audio needs and another for web/internet/otherstuff
22:36:46  <peter1138> "audio stream input output" ?
22:36:52  <HMage> asio -
22:37:03  <HMage>
22:37:57  <KUDr> hmm
22:38:01  <KUDr> looks nice
22:38:57  <KUDr> so can't you have two system partitions on HDD?
22:39:23  <KUDr> or play with VC2005 in virtual machine?
22:39:44  <HMage> unfortunately, NT kernel that supports .net applications does some background checks from time to time I don't know what are these, but that disrupts continuous flow of audio data to the audio interface. I am right now playing with vc2005express in a virtual machine, but that is quite inconvinient.
22:40:16  <peter1138> .net 2 occasionally does some recompiling in the background
22:40:21  <peter1138> but not often
22:40:21  <KUDr> this is problem of tread priorities or not?
22:40:29  <KUDr> this can be adjusted
22:40:34  <peter1138> i only ever encountered it when installing SQL Server 2005
22:41:02  <KUDr> .NET GC can have disturbing effect but it can be easily sent to background
22:41:06  <HMage> I've tried disabling .net 2 optimization service, but that was no use. ASIO runs almost realtime.
22:41:10  <KUDr> same as whole VM
22:41:42  <HMage> there are no .NET applications running while using asio, but still. maybe it's my system?
22:42:08  <KUDr> hmm sound interesting
22:42:38  <KUDr> if you can reproduce the problem in VMware i would like to look at it with kernel debugger
22:42:50  <HMage> in VMware you can't have ASIO :)
22:43:01  <KUDr> ofcourse
22:43:14  <KUDr> but the problem should be wider
22:43:18  <KUDr> not only asio
22:43:32  <KUDr> if it really exists outside your asio sw
22:43:47  <KUDr> otherwise your sw vendor should fix it
22:44:25  <KUDr> does it occure also on multicore PCs?
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22:46:40  <HMage> nah, ignore it. looks like I'm the only one with that type of a problem. No mention on google or blogs
22:47:12  <KUDr> so it must be somwhere else
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