Log for #openttd on 3rd January 2007:
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00:02:21  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7782 /trunk/ -Fix (r7779): do really check whether there are files to copy in the directories, not just test whether the directories exist.
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00:22:29  <Wolf01> 'night all
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00:22:52  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7783 /website/templates/ (footer.tpl footer_nightly.tpl): [Website] Update copyright information to 2007
00:26:45  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7784 /branches/newhouses/ (65 files in 7 dirs): [NewHouses] -Sync: with trunk r7727:7758.
00:26:56  <Darkvater> OMG WinXP crashes with a BSOD when I try to debug a crash.dmp file
00:26:58  <Darkvater> o_O
00:27:11  <Darkvater> twice in a row now
00:27:15  <Darkvater> do I dare a third time? :)
00:34:04  <Bjarni> 3rd time is the charm
00:34:15  <Bjarni> then you will not be able to recover from it again :P
00:34:30  <Bjarni> or it will work
00:34:36  <Bjarni> so it's a win-win
00:35:46  <Bjarni> <--- such dreams can really be bad for you
00:35:53  <Bjarni> and/or your family
00:36:50  <Darkvater> and a third time :D
00:37:07  * Darkvater removes kerio personal firewall since khips.sys belongs to that program
00:37:10  <Darkvater> bleh
00:37:24  <Darkvater> the question is...will it do so a fourth time ^^
00:37:57  <Bjarni> it's windows, remember ;)
00:38:49  <ln-> Let's vote.
00:39:34  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7785 /branches/newhouses/ (564 files in 38 dirs): [NewHouses] -Sync: execute the same script for /branches/newhouses as was done for /trunk in r7759.
00:40:06  <Bjarni> <gedamo> Some of our customers used to call their computer boxes the "brain" and it led tothem calling up saying things like "My brain isn'tworking" <--- somehow I guess they used windows
00:43:25  <BFM> What's the most old school emo con anyone can think of? Not unlike T_T
00:43:33  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7786 /branches/newhouses/ (11 files in 6 dirs): [NewHouses] -Sync: with trunk r7759:7782.
00:44:19  <Smoovious> BFM... would "!ps -fu BFM" count?
00:44:46  <BFM> Umm, could you explain that one Smoovious?
00:45:20  <Smoovious> well, back in the 80's, we said that as basically a non-obvious f*ck you
00:46:21  <BFM> Maybe not that oldschool
00:46:33  <Smoovious> okee
00:46:47  <Smoovious> =8>
00:46:49  <Darkvater> so
00:46:50  <Darkvater> gn
00:47:02  <Rubidium> good night Darkvater
00:47:33  <Bjarni> night Darkvater
00:47:47  <Bjarni> <-- parential control online.... in a whole new way :D
00:49:14  <Sacro> Bjarni!
00:50:28  <ln-> Bjarni!
00:50:46  <ln-> Cmd <-> Ctrl
00:53:03  * Bjarni still wonders about that reply
00:53:34  <Bjarni> Cmd and Ctrl are two different keys, I know
00:53:38  <Bjarni> but
00:54:06  <Bjarni> what relationship does that have to a parent using the internet to find his kid smoking weed?
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00:58:22  <ln-> Cmd -> Ctrl, Ctrl -> Cmd
00:59:10  <Bjarni> whatever
00:59:13  <Bjarni> goodnight
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01:16:38  <BFM> I do I insist on eating a whole large pizza, every time pizza is served =\
01:18:30  <ln-> BFM accepts Food.
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01:27:07  <Zuu> I have reported a bug on (about the game crashing when building airport). I have happend to found out that the bug was not becuse of Toyland but because of station_spread set to a value < size of airport. Should I create a new entry and link back to the old entry in the database since it will make the report more clear?
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01:28:36  <glx> <-- lol
01:32:33  <ArmEagle> hmm, but what if you 4xplant then remove and then 4xplant again? ..
01:33:34  <DaleStan> Zuu: Personally, I'd leave it as is, and let TPTB change the title as they see fit.
01:36:06  <Zuu> DaleStan: Okay.
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01:37:09  <Zuu> ArmEagle: I think that would work too, but would take lots longer time..
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02:02:46  <ln-> what'shappeningwhydoesn'tanyonetalkanythingiseverybodysleepingalreadyatthistime?
02:03:24  <glx> is your 'space' key broken ln- ? ;)
02:04:59  <ln-> i've been told english used to be written without spaces in the past.
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02:05:37  <ln-> and that's why they came up with the idea to write 'I' with capital so it would be more recognizable.
02:07:44  <Zuu> Cool, found a way to solve my reported bug in the RC2-code, which I hope works in the trunk too.. but it's 3 AM here.. and I better sleep :)
02:08:02  <Zuu> (the bug about airports)
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03:36:54  <Smoovious> ugh... trying to register on flyspray ( and I can't... keep getting errors on the page saying confirmation code was sent, but never gets sent
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03:49:20  <Smoovious> if someone answered, I didn't see it
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06:50:36  <CIA-1> miham * r7787 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
06:50:36  <CIA-1> WebTranslator2 update to 2007-01-03 07:49:50
06:50:36  <CIA-1> czech - 2 changed by joeprusa (2)
06:50:36  <CIA-1> danish - 80 changed by MiR (80)
06:50:36  <CIA-1> esperanto - 1 fixed, 3 changed by LaPingvino (4)
06:50:36  <CIA-1> estonian - 54 changed by kristjans (54)
06:50:36  <CIA-1> japanese - 177 fixed, 65 changed by ickoonite (242)
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08:05:33  <peter1138> morning
08:06:28  <Rubidium> morning
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08:18:21  <KUDr> gm
08:18:51  <peter1138> Rubidium: problem with langs
08:18:58  <peter1138> if one lang fails, it doesn't continue with the rest
08:19:06  <Rubidium> hmm
08:19:20  <peter1138> currently it gets to czech, so i don't get an english.lng
08:20:34  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7788 /trunk/ -Fix (r7759): do not stop compiling languages when one language fails to compile.
08:20:39  <peter1138> heh, gets further if you specify -j to make :)
08:20:39  <Celestar> *yells* goooooood morning #openttd
08:20:43  <peter1138> that was quick
08:20:48  <Celestar> peter1138: try -k
08:21:56  <KUDr> Celestar: gm sir
08:21:57  <peter1138> too late :)
08:23:15  <Celestar> WTF
08:23:20  <Celestar> 3300 lines of changelog?!
08:24:00  <Celestar> I was away for about 12 hours
08:25:33  <blathijs> as in, commit log?
08:25:41  <blathijs> or IRC backlog?
08:25:45  <Celestar> commit log
08:26:05  <Celestar> ah I see, you moved around a fuckton of files
08:26:08  * blathijs has stopped readin all commit logs some months ago :-)
08:26:34  <Celestar> Rubidium: do you feel like syncing cbh and bridges with trunk, cuz I dunno shit about the makefile rewrite
08:27:04  <peter1138> bridges is no longer needed, is it?
08:27:17  <Rubidium> Celestar: if you do a sync up to (including) r7758 first, then I'll do the rest
08:27:22  <Celestar> peter1138: well, for crossingbridges I could do a new branch
08:27:25  <Celestar> Rubidium: ok no problem
08:27:34  <Celestar> Rubidium: and leave out bridges for the time being
08:27:49  <peter1138> don't reuse branches :)
08:28:45  <Celestar> peter1138: ok I won't
08:28:51  <Celestar> so shall we remove the bridge branch?
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08:32:13  <Celestar> Rubidium: your branch
08:32:19  <Celestar> Darkvater: ping
08:32:25  <CIA-1> celestar * r7789 /branches/custombridgeheads/ (66 files in 7 dirs): [cbh] - Sync with r7720:7758 from trunk
08:33:08  <Rubidium> Celestar: ok
08:36:31  <Celestar> KUDr: I'm getting "train is lost" messages on a test game (many trains), with NTP only. do you want to have a look? :)
08:37:05  <KUDr> Celestar: we have much bigger problems now
08:37:26  <KUDr> when leaving the bridge wormhole
08:37:39  <KUDr> and there is red signal on the head
08:37:52  <Celestar> BOOM
08:37:54  <Celestar> ?
08:38:03  <KUDr> we must stop train before entering head and stay in the wormhole
08:38:14  <peter1138> train controller
08:38:28  <KUDr> it will totally mangle controller
08:38:51  <KUDr> vehicle still has track==0x40
08:38:59  <peter1138> the controller should already han... hmm
08:39:06  <KUDr> so we can't reuse the existing code as it is
08:39:37  <Celestar> KUDr: what about moving the signal on the tile so that the vehicle can get off-bridge before?
08:40:08  <KUDr> it is not about its position
08:40:22  <KUDr> it it about that vehicle can't be on ramp
08:40:26  <Celestar> KUDr: or drop signals on bridgeheads for the time being and rewrite the bridges according to caladan and stillunknown
08:40:27  <peter1138> v->u.rail.track isn't tested there, afaics
08:40:32  <Celestar> why not on bridge ramp?
08:40:35  <KUDr> otherwise it will make one more signal red
08:40:43  <KUDr> after the bridge
08:41:00  <peter1138> oh, i see
08:41:11  <peter1138> none of it's executed if it's 0x40
08:41:26  <peter1138> tum te tum :)
08:41:43  <KUDr> peter1138: but now it is so that we leave wormhole and it gets executed
08:41:55  <KUDr> but we need to exec it before leaving
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08:42:49  <Celestar> back in 5
08:42:58  <peter1138> right well, better you than me :)
08:43:00  <KUDr> Celestar: so you mean put there bridge index into tile?
08:43:19  <peter1138> this is where you start to wonder if you could change gtts and everything else to use a 3D coordinate system
08:43:43  <KUDr> peter1138: why 3d?
08:44:12  <peter1138> so that when you've got 3 levels of bridges........
08:44:15  <caladan> goodmorning
08:44:20  <KUDr> ahh
08:44:32  <KUDr> but ramp can't be over ramp
08:44:34  <caladan> that waiting with implementing signals on bridges may be a god idea
08:44:58  <peter1138> KUDr: not currently, no, heh
08:45:16  <KUDr> peter1138: and later?
08:45:28  <KUDr> ramp over ramp is nonsense i guess
08:45:28  <Celestar> caladan: do you have that image of yours again?
08:45:35  <caladan> yes
08:45:45  <Celestar> peter1138: I'm wondering that as well.
08:45:53  <caladan>
08:46:00  <Celestar> KUDr: check that link of caladan :)
08:46:03  <Celestar> peter1138: you too
08:46:16  <caladan> that piece should be 4x2, not 4x3, my wrong, didnt correct it
08:46:22  <Celestar> caladan: (the bridge map is still too large)
08:46:25  <Celestar> damnit ... beat me to it
08:46:55  <caladan> ok, i'll correct it now ;]
08:46:58  <caladan> wait
08:47:06  <KUDr> heh, crossing on bridge?
08:48:08  <KUDr> i must get coffee but i like that pic
08:48:23  <Celestar> ROFL
08:49:48  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7790 /branches/custombridgeheads/ (532 files in 37 dirs): [cbh] -Sync: execute the same script for /branches/custombridgeheads as was done for /trunk in r7759.
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08:51:16  <Celestar> Rubidium: thanks, checking
08:51:43  <Celestar> KUDr: that'S a concept stillunknown caladan and I came up with concerning bridges and tunnels
08:52:19  <Celestar> Rubidium: is Makefile.config still used btw?
08:52:31  <Rubidium> no
08:52:33  <Celestar> ok
08:52:35  <Celestar> nice :)
08:52:45  <Rubidium> use sources.list :)
08:52:50  <caladan> The basic idea is here, just a simple bridge:
08:53:03  <caladan> But if we have map we can do it better, like here:
08:53:08  <caladan> But if we have map we can do it better, like here:
08:55:16  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7791 /branches/custombridgeheads/projects/ (openttd.vcproj openttd_vs80.vcproj): [cbh] -Fix (r7790): forgot to run projects/generate, so the MSVC project files were not in sync with sources.list.
08:55:19  <Noldo> the second one has no orange tiles, is that a mistake?
08:55:24  <KUDr> caladan" it is relly nice and seems doable
08:56:07  <caladan> notice, bridge1.png and bridge2.png
08:56:13  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7792 /branches/custombridgeheads/ (19 files in 8 dirs): [cbh] -Sync: with trunk r7759:7788.
08:56:40  <caladan> must wake up :/
08:56:43  <Rubidium> Celestar: now it's in-sync again :)
08:57:53  <Celestar> thanks
08:59:10  <Celestar> KUDr: yes it is doable, the only problem would be the GUI
08:59:22  * Celestar highfives caladan: Good Team :)
09:00:01  <caladan> Celestar: I still really helping stillunknown to understand dynamic allocation...
09:00:11  <Celestar> caladan: ^^
09:00:39  <Celestar> Rubidium: where did the grfs go?
09:00:53  <Rubidium> bin/data
09:00:56  <caladan> Celestar: Thou he seems to understand what I say and there's some progress
09:01:06  <Rubidium> the openttd executable goes to bin/ too
09:02:34  <Celestar> Rubidium: so does the cfg and the saves?
09:02:35  <KUDr> so the only problem(s) would be: 1) how to handle shared ramp (for 2 bridges) 2) how to not waste many tiles when bridge layout is like 50 horizontal tracks, curve and 50 vertical tracks
09:03:18  <Celestar> KUDr: waste it
09:03:31  <Celestar> KUDr: 1) don'T do it for now, 2) waste it,
09:03:50  <caladan> KUDr: Basic idea are straight bridges/tunnels
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09:04:05  <Celestar> KUDr: and for the time being, we just disallow signals on bridgeheads?
09:04:12  <KUDr> Celestar: but if you intro new concept you should never end with "don'T do it for now"
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09:04:51  <stillunknown> a concept should be introduced doing nothing, then gradually expanded to take over functions and add new stuff
09:05:00  <KUDr> Celestar: then i would recommend to postpone cbh
09:05:11  <KUDr> and do the design change first
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09:06:01  <KUDr> otherwise we will have many dead ends in the development and aslo in savegames etc
09:06:21  <KUDr> and maintenance cost...
09:07:44  <peter1138> do we still need the old LRU?
09:07:48  <peter1138> for the spritecache
09:08:38  <Celestar> stillunknown: yeah
09:09:02  <Celestar> KUDr: peter1138: but how could we do the drawing? we need some kind of hash table that finds all the tiles at a given position?
09:09:08  <Celestar> this is the main thing that worries me
09:09:26  <Celestar> and we needa talk to Darkvater, Rubidium and others because we might want help with the rewrite :)
09:09:38  <KUDr> Celestar: it is not a problem
09:09:54  <Celestar> KUDr: I assume you have some idea on how to do it? :)
09:10:07  <KUDr> there can be supertiles containing list of bridges in them
09:10:24  <KUDr> like 16x16 tiles = one supertile
09:10:34  <Celestar> and those would not need to be stored, but can be computed on the fly upon loading
09:10:42  <KUDr> yes
09:10:45  <peter1138> hmm
09:10:51  <Celestar> I suggest we drop _map then and make kind of a pool of maps
09:10:55  <KUDr> this will be our drawing cache
09:10:58  <Celestar> with no real principal map
09:11:00  <caladan> I dont really get the idea of hashes, twhat for?
09:11:08  <Celestar> caladan: we just dropped it anyway :)
09:11:29  <Celestar>
09:11:47  <caladan> Celestar: i know how hash table works, i dont see how we could use it here :P
09:12:14  <KUDr> caladan: when drawing region you need to know what is in this region
09:12:43  <KUDr> but bridge can have both ends somewhere else
09:12:54  <KUDr> so you can miss it
09:13:04  <peter1138> this stuff will work for tunnels too, right?
09:13:11  <caladan> right
09:13:12  <Celestar> peter1138: so the pool of Maps would just contain the pointer to the map, which is allocated separately, and size/position information
09:13:15  <Celestar> peter1138: right :)
09:13:20  <KUDr> peter1138: i would like to do the in one shot
09:13:20  <Celestar> peter1138: that's the idea behind it
09:13:32  <KUDr> yes
09:13:35  <Celestar> peter1138: bridge and tunnels would no longer be wormholes, but rather portals to a new map.
09:13:37  <KUDr> same concept
09:13:43  <KUDr> for both
09:13:51  <caladan> Map struct would be like that:
09:13:52  <peter1138> heh
09:13:56  <Celestar> and vehicles would just have another property showing on which map they are
09:13:57  <caladan> typedef struct BridgeMap { Tile* bt; TileIndex first_tile; uint16 size_x; uint16 size_y;
09:14:00  <caladan> } BridgeMap;typedef struct BridgeMap { Tile* bt; TileIndex first_tile; uint16 size_x; uint16 size_y;
09:14:13  <peter1138> so not BridgeMap then ;p
09:14:19  <Celestar> caladan: drop the "Bridge" in "BridgeMap"
09:14:20  <caladan> } BridgeMap;yeah, old idea of name
09:14:22  <Celestar> :)
09:14:36  <Celestar> ok shall we give it a shot and make a branch for that?
09:14:44  <peter1138> might as well
09:14:58  <Celestar> but first I'll try to write up some procedure, k?
09:14:58  <caladan> Darkvater suggested that yesterday
09:14:59  <peter1138> there seems to be issues with cbh at the moment :/
09:15:10  <Noldo> SubMap?
09:15:15  <Celestar> Darkvater: suggested to make a branch?
09:15:23  <peter1138> Celestar: but... doesn't this mostly replace the bridge branch?
09:15:31  <caladan> Darkvater suggested making a branch
09:15:32  <Celestar> peter1138: yes :)
09:15:34  <peter1138> which was just merged :P
09:15:52  <Celestar> peter1138: but not fully. I think the bridge branch is a step towards it :)
09:15:55  <peter1138> otoh, maybe it's simpler to continue with the way bridges are currently done
09:15:56  <peter1138> yeah
09:15:58  <KUDr> LayerMap
09:16:05  <peter1138> maplayer
09:16:13  <Celestar> what global map variables do we have?
09:16:18  <KUDr> as it should describe one Z layer
09:16:40  <KUDr> maplayer works too
09:16:42  <peter1138> hmm
09:16:45  <Celestar> KUDr: and if the bridge or tunnels changes z value, we get a new submap?
09:16:45  <caladan> We got height information in each tile
09:16:48  <peter1138> ma player o_O
09:17:00  <KUDr> Celestar: we should
09:17:12  <Celestar> KUDr: agree
09:17:16  <peter1138> yes
09:17:18  <KUDr> Celestar: then we can handle more bridges in one maplayer
09:17:30  <Darkvater> morning
09:17:36  <caladan> So you think that making several layers is better?
09:17:38  <KUDr> morning master
09:18:00  <Darkvater> sorry Celestar didn't have time to test cbh; got caught up in a crash in RC2 and spontaneous XP BSOD's when I tried debugging it :(
09:18:06  <peter1138> i can forsee issues merging/splitting maplayers if you don't
09:18:16  <KUDr> caladan: it is what we wanted to do anyway (map layers)
09:18:57  <caladan> It would mean well, 10times more memory usage for map
09:19:02  <KUDr> 'merging/splitting maplayers' will be needed but it is isolated algorithm
09:19:04  <Celestar> Darkvater: we might have just postponed cbh
09:19:14  <Celestar> caladan: why?
09:19:31  <Celestar> caladan: consider this: less than about 1-2% of the map is covered by bridges/tunnels.
09:19:31  <caladan> One layer(level), one map?
09:19:35  <Celestar> caladan: no no.
09:19:38  <Celestar> no 3d map.
09:19:39  <Celestar> :)
09:19:44  <KUDr> caladan: why? there will be your concept of small maps used
09:20:15  <caladan> KUDr: so i dont get how we would need that Z coordinate
09:20:18  <peter1138> hmm, should a map layer be aligned to the supertiles?
09:20:34  <peter1138> hmm, that wastes memory
09:20:45  <peter1138> Darkvater: ditch old spritecache LRU? does anyone use it?
09:20:55  <KUDr> caladan: it is better than waste whole area for one bridge only
09:21:36  <caladan> KUDr: But each submap would be more-les of the size of bridge
09:22:00  <Celestar> easy
09:22:07  <KUDr> or size/2 * size/2 in worst case
09:22:21  <Celestar> a "submap" is 1 z level below in case of a tunnel tile, and 1 z level above in case of a bridge tile.
09:22:25  <KUDr> it is size^2 / 4 << too much
09:22:44  <Celestar> KUDr: I don't think so.
09:22:50  <KUDr> Celestar: can't be one below or one above
09:23:03  <Celestar> KUDr: because what you are suggesting is essentially a full 3D map. I'm not for that approach :>
09:23:05  <peter1138> the landscape varies
09:23:09  <caladan> Celestar: Ok, thats Ok, we have z index below level if tunnel and +n if bridge
09:23:13  <KUDr> exactly
09:23:20  <peter1138> so it needs to be a fixed z level
09:23:30  <KUDr> yes
09:23:31  <Celestar> ok so the map needs a fixed z level
09:23:33  <Celestar> :)
09:23:33  <KUDr> fixed
09:23:37  <peter1138> therefore a layer can slice the landscape, yum.
09:23:38  <KUDr> and portals
09:23:48  <KUDr> agree
09:23:49  <Darkvater> caladan: did I suggest to make a branch? nice :O
09:24:02  <caladan> Darkvater: yes, maybe that was o joke, but yes
09:24:13  <Celestar> peter1138: no it cannot. because where it does, there is a portal
09:24:39  <Celestar> peter1138: non-reachable tiles would be of type MP_VOID
09:24:47  <Darkvater> peter1138: didn't spritecache LRU was used internally to decide which sprites to throw out once the cache is full?
09:25:07  <peter1138> Darkvater: yes, but have two versions of it, both r1
09:25:11  <Darkvater> Rubidium: can you explain me how adding a new source file now is going to work?
09:25:18  <Darkvater> Rubidium: eg you add the file to sources.list and then?
09:25:29  <peter1138> hmm
09:26:47  <Darkvater> and which one are we using? Or is it configurable?
09:26:52  <Darkvater> which I've never seen an option of
09:26:54  <peter1138> we're using the new one
09:26:59  <peter1138> it's not an option, it's a define
09:27:12  <peter1138> WANT_NEW_LRU
09:28:59  <Darkvater> ah I see, I think I've never seen the WANT_OLD_LRU one :)
09:29:07  <peter1138> me neither
09:29:17  <Darkvater> while you are there, could you also drop the sprite_rotate ifdef thingie?
09:29:55  <peter1138> NEW_ROTATION?
09:29:56  <peter1138> hmm
09:30:12  <Darkvater> if it's called that, then yes :)
09:30:23  *** Celestar [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:30:24  <Darkvater> Vurlix started that and then just abandoned it
09:30:59  <peter1138> hmm. separate commit. NEW_ROTATION is in a lot more places
09:31:24  <Darkvater> you could call it -cleanup: remove obsolete, never-used code :)
09:32:05  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7793 /trunk/src/spritecache.c: -Cleanup: Remove obsolute, never-used old spritecache LRU code
09:32:13  <peter1138> obsolute :(
09:32:24  <Darkvater> lol
09:32:24  <peter1138> my ^C didn't work :P
09:33:47  <peter1138> heh, NEW_ROTATION only drew the ground? hehe
09:34:23  *** Celestar [] has joined #openttd
09:34:25  <Celestar> :S
09:34:48  <Celestar> note to self: after a reboot, there's no need to go looking for your SCREEN'ed irssi session
09:34:54  <peter1138> :D
09:35:04  <Darkvater> :)
09:35:12  <Darkvater> that's why I irc from another machine :)
09:35:23  <Celestar>
09:35:28  <Celestar> guys .. opinions ...
09:36:07  <Darkvater> _map[] is also a global variable :)
09:36:15  <Celestar> true :P
09:36:23  <Celestar> but it's _m not _map
09:36:34  <peter1138> why non-power of 2?
09:36:50  <caladan> I dont think that's required, i would leave it as it is
09:36:58  <KUDr> yes
09:37:00  <peter1138> might cause performance issues...
09:37:05  <Darkvater> I don't like some of the changes there
09:37:07  <KUDr> true
09:37:10  <Celestar> peter1138: because if you have a map that is 33 tiles long, the thing would be 64 tiles?
09:37:14  <Celestar> but ok we can leave that.
09:37:18  <Celestar> Darkvater: like which ones?
09:37:23  * Darkvater is more in favour of some global variables then computing them on the fly
09:37:32  <Darkvater> 3). for example
09:37:36  <Celestar> ok
09:37:42  <Celestar> then drop the text file
09:37:48  <Celestar> just move all the variables into a struct :)
09:37:51  <Darkvater> and also non-power of 2?
09:37:56  <KUDr> Celestar: ahh talking about submaps?
09:37:57  <Darkvater> Your submap can be of any size no?
09:38:10  <KUDr> submaps yes
09:38:16  <KUDr> but map not
09:38:17  <Celestar> KUDr: a submap is identical to the main map, I'd not distinguish between them.
09:38:39  <KUDr> hmm
09:38:40  <caladan> Celestar: True, they have to be well, same
09:38:46  <Celestar> wait
09:39:44  <caladan> and what for is that _map_tile_mask
09:40:01  <KUDr> 'z_level (which is 1!) for the main map' ?
09:40:22  <KUDr> main map should contain surface
09:40:32  <KUDr> nothing else
09:40:32  <peter1138> also, don't pool the main map, heh
09:40:35  <Celestar> KUDr: yes, but we want tunnels under the sea :)
09:40:39  <Celestar> peter1138: why?
09:40:49  <peter1138> performance
09:40:59  <KUDr> sea level can be 4 for example
09:41:09  <peter1138> -1
09:41:14  <Celestar> -1 ?
09:41:14  <caladan> KUDr: Agreed
09:41:20  <peter1138> sea level should be 0 :D
09:41:22  <caladan> peter1138: dont go nto negative values
09:41:26  <peter1138> except when the ice caps melt
09:41:29  <Celestar> :P
09:41:42  <hylje> heh
09:41:46  <hylje> climate change ftw?
09:41:58  <Celestar> so do we want a distingushed main map or do we have them "all equal" ?
09:42:15  <Celestar> peter1138: we pool vehicles ...
09:42:57  <KUDr> Celestar: main map should stay as fast as possible
09:43:02  <caladan> I think we should have one global struct of mainmap
09:43:16  <caladan> and pointer to table od pointers to submaps structs
09:43:22  <Darkvater> I thought the submaps were only for bridges (and tunnels in the future). In that case you do want to distinguishbetween them because they're "special"
09:43:49  <Celestar> hm.
09:43:52  * Celestar goes thinking ...
09:43:57  <KUDr> Darkvater: or submap can be for one Z-level
09:44:22  <KUDr> and contain more bridges/tunnels
09:44:36  <KUDr> think of curves in tunnel or on bridge
09:44:42  <Celestar> KUDr: then you have a 3D map ...
09:44:44  <blathijs> Perhaps you should look at the newmap design, maybe we can use some of that :-)
09:44:47  <KUDr> yes
09:44:50  <Darkvater> so you would have 8 copies of _m[] basically you mean?
09:44:55  <Celestar> Darkvater: 16 :)
09:45:00  <KUDr> 3D map would help in the future
09:45:01  <caladan> Right, lets see that, i mean new map
09:45:11  <Celestar> which would increase memory usage by ... ... ... factor  of .... 16
09:45:12  <KUDr> like subway stations and so on
09:45:22  <KUDr> Celestar: NO!
09:45:24  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7794 /trunk/src/ (functions.h spritecache.c viewport.c): -Cleanup: Remove obsolete, never-used landscape rotation code. And spell obsolete correctly.
09:45:30  <KUDr> not full 3d map
09:45:39  <KUDr> surface + submaps
09:46:05  <Celestar> and place submaps where you need them ... hmm...
09:46:13  <KUDr> yes
09:46:20  <Celestar> I dunno
09:46:27  <Darkvater> peter1138: \o/
09:46:28  <KUDr> with proper merge/split infrastructure
09:46:34  <caladan> Kudr: that's ok
09:46:55  <Celestar> ok
09:46:55  <Darkvater> KUDr: surface + maps for bridge/tunnel?
09:47:18  <blathijs> So you get one "submap" per bridge / tunnel?
09:47:28  <Darkvater> cause that's not what Celestar was advocating...
09:47:30  <blathijs> and submaps are always rectangular
09:47:36  <KUDr> and portal will describe all Z1->Z2 transitions => one portal for one X,Y
09:47:48  <Darkvater> we can't have bridges over bridges atm can we?
09:48:03  <KUDr> blathijs: probably yes, otherwise it would be slow
09:48:03  <caladan> Darkvater: we can with that
09:48:35  <Celestar> Darkvater: we could, but Tron removed the code :S
09:48:40  <Darkvater> if we're going this way I want deep water :)
09:48:43  <caladan> KUDr: dont need that Z transformation, make sure submap begins at the same level as the surrounding is
09:49:02  <KUDr> Darkvater: map + submaps for level rectangles
09:49:23  <Darkvater> Celestar: well; we do need to think about it. I'd rather not have any locomotion rollercoaster crap debacles
09:49:41  <caladan> KUDr: Noone said submap must be flat
09:49:52  <KUDr> caladanL you maybe rigth
09:50:04  * blathijs thinks the concept of submap is a little too fixed
09:50:09  <KUDr> but submap should be flat
09:50:22  <caladan> KUDr: why?
09:50:25  <KUDr> otherwise it will be problem to locate it i guess
09:50:26  <Celestar> blathijs: ?
09:50:36  <blathijs> just stack tiles on top of eachother instead :-)
09:50:57  <KUDr> blathijs: this is another option, yes
09:51:21  <KUDr> better from some POVs
09:51:28  <Celestar> blathijs: we've seen that the stacked tile approach did not work out well.
09:51:35  <Celestar> it ate a lot of memory
09:51:49  <KUDr> Celestar: bad implementation?
09:52:05  <blathijs> I'd say forcing "submaps" to be rectangular eats even more memory
09:52:17  <KUDr> yes
09:52:19  <blathijs> and I'd say the stacked tiles worked pretty well :-)
09:52:21  <caladan> Yeah, submaps must be as small as possible
09:52:43  <peter1138> i never saw stacked tiles in use ;(
09:52:45  <KUDr> caladan: then no curves in tunnels/bridges
09:53:06  <caladan> KUDr: at first, yes
09:54:45  <caladan> But most bridges would be straight
09:55:34  <KUDr> 'at first, yes' we should avoid design limitations like that
09:55:49  <KUDr> otherwise we will need to do it again soon
09:55:56  <KUDr> it is not simple project
09:55:57  * blathijs agrees with KUDr
09:56:25  <KUDr> half-solution is not solution
09:57:35  <KUDr> blathijs: how your stacking worked? pointer to next and prev?
09:57:37  <blathijs> It can be if a real solution costs too much ;-p
09:57:46  <blathijs> KUDr: only pointers up I think
09:57:55  <KUDr> and cyclicng
09:58:13  <blathijs> no, just a reference to the lowest tile at each (x,y)
09:58:27  <KUDr> aha
09:58:38  <KUDr> and then they were in array?
09:59:06  <blathijs> yes
09:59:10  <blathijs> KUDr:
09:59:21  <blathijs> That has some docs about it
09:59:25  <KUDr> because we can have tiles with the same X.Y in array
09:59:29  <KUDr> will look
10:01:29  <blathijs> KUDr: the page I posted doesn't contain details you are asking for I think
10:01:42  <KUDr> i see
10:01:49  <Celestar> KUDr: currently, I tile is (about) 8 bytes. if you add a next pointer, it's another 8 bytes ...
10:02:03  <KUDr> but:
10:02:04  <Celestar> so that drives up the memory usage by a factor of two without adding anything.
10:02:15  <KUDr> if map is array of pointers only
10:02:20  <caladan> Index to submap is better
10:02:24  <KUDr> it would do the job
10:02:45  <Celestar> KUDr: 1024x1024 = 1M  ... that'S 8 megs of only pointers ...
10:02:51  <KUDr> and all tiles in one XY can be in the ordered array
10:02:54  <Celestar> without storing a single bit of data.
10:03:25  <KUDr> Celestar: ok, then indices (4 bytes)
10:03:28  <Celestar> <= reload
10:03:39  <Celestar> KUDr: indices to submaps? yeah
10:03:53  <KUDr> to array of physical tiles
10:04:23  <caladan> And only portals contain that index
10:04:53  <Celestar> KUDr: we have tried the stacked tile approach. it worked out to be TOTALLY bitchy
10:04:56  <Celestar> :>
10:05:05  <KUDr> and each tile needs only two additional bits indicating if there is a 'prev' and 'next'
10:05:24  <KUDr> Celestar: why?
10:05:45  <Celestar> KUDr: check out the old map branch and see for yourself :)
10:05:46  <Darkvater> I must say it was really slow. Back then we still had a lot of direct map access, but in debug mode a 64x64 (empty) was also almost unplayably slow
10:06:05  *** GoneWacko [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
10:06:06  <KUDr> in my C++ experiment i had supertiles (instead of one big map) and speed impact was nearly zero
10:06:20  <KUDr> and it should work here too
10:06:30  <Celestar> KUDr: goto branches/map/tile.h
10:06:42  <KUDr> ok
10:07:17  <Celestar> we had a nice union-struct for all the tile types
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10:07:24  <Celestar> Darkvater: so .. what's your idea?
10:07:31  <Celestar> submaps, or tilestacks?
10:08:12  <Darkvater> well we've had stacks before so I kinda know what to expect there
10:08:16  <KUDr> Celestar: it would be also good approach to have different tile types stored in different arrays (with different item size)
10:08:32  <Darkvater> but this submap idea is pretty good
10:08:46  <hylje> :>
10:08:57  <Darkvater> just how do you want to handle drawing? Eg you are on tile x,y how do you know if you should draw a bridge above or not?
10:09:17  <caladan> i would divide map to regions like 32x32
10:09:21  <blathijs> How do you link a submap to a tile?
10:09:41  <Celestar> Darkvater: some kind of table where this information is stored. we could also give the user the option to remove the main map, bridges visually for better view.
10:09:43  <caladan> and have list of all submaps in that region
10:09:56  <Celestar> blathijs: by storing the index in _m2 (of the bridgehead)
10:10:04  <caladan> and portals would have indeces
10:10:13  <KUDr> caladan: i had 116x16 as the x and y were 4 bits each so easy to address
10:10:15  <Darkvater> although my question is probably already solved since bridges now are also wormholes and only phyisically stored at the bridge-ends
10:10:17  <Darkvater> no?
10:10:33  <Celestar> Darkvater: yes. there's just a "here is a bridge" bit stored.
10:10:33  <blathijs> so, to get the submap over a tile, you must look around for any nearby bridge heads?
10:10:57  <Celestar> blathijs: that's what we do now.
10:11:11  <blathijs> uh, what?
10:11:23  <Celestar> blathijs: looking around for bridge heads to draw the bridge.
10:11:32  <blathijs> *blink*
10:11:46  <Celestar> Darkvater: so, for the "few" bridge heads, we'd just have a marker "here is a submap"
10:11:51  <blathijs> Is it me, or does that give a huge ass performance penalty?
10:11:51  <Celestar> s/heads//
10:11:57  <Celestar> blathijs: it is not noticable.
10:12:08  <Celestar> or at least not measureable.
10:12:44  <blathijs> still, it's not really a scalable solution
10:12:45  <peter1138> it's always done that
10:13:00  <Celestar> blathijs: un a rather empty map, you have waaay to little bridge to notice it, and on a full map, the pathfinders and vehicle colliders take waaay to much cycles to make the bridges a noticable problem.
10:13:06  <peter1138> but perhaps only for the bridge height...
10:13:17  <Celestar> peter1138: yes
10:13:33  <KUDr> not all pathfinders
10:13:36  <KUDr> :)
10:13:41  <Celestar> peter1138: but it had to traverse memory anyway. if is at the bridge heads, it doesn't matter whether to load 1 or 8 bytes.
10:13:42  <stillunknown> i have to go now, and btw Celestar m2 was not empty on bridgeheads :-)
10:13:55  <stillunknown> the bridgetype was in it
10:13:55  <Celestar> KUDr: not really, but more then the bridge drawing code
10:14:04  <Celestar> stillunknown: it takes < 5 minutes to move it, so worry not.
10:14:11  <stillunknown> already solved
10:14:15  <KUDr> Celestar: drawing is not the problem
10:14:23  <Celestar> KUDr: then what is? :)
10:14:35  <Celestar> drawing is the ONLY thing that worries me.
10:14:39  <KUDr> size of regions
10:14:48  <Celestar> size of what regions?
10:14:51  <KUDr> it is half solution
10:14:59  <KUDr> blathijs is right
10:15:17  <KUDr> we should think more of the stacked option
10:15:27  <KUDr> as it is fully scalable
10:15:38  <KUDr> and not so many limitations
10:15:52  <KUDr> bridge/tunnel regions
10:16:01  <KUDr> or you disable curves
10:16:06  <KUDr> but not for now
10:16:11  <KUDr> forever
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10:16:28  <Celestar> I don't like the stacked tile approach ... maybe because we had a very much failed attempt
10:16:39  <Lachlan> g'day, I'm after a little help
10:16:43  <KUDr> failed why?
10:16:50  <Celestar> KUDr: slow for example
10:16:54  <KUDr> because it was not done well
10:17:03  <Celestar> and memory intensive
10:17:07  <KUDr> therefore you should try better implementation
10:17:18  <Celestar> the memory usage should not go up noticably
10:17:30  <Celestar> (assuming less than 3% of the map are covered with bridgeS/tunlles)
10:17:35  <KUDr> full rectangular regions will eat the same memory
10:17:54  <KUDr> you will need to layer more things
10:18:10  <KUDr> tunnels, stations, bridges
10:18:23  <Lachlan> concerned with starting a server via SSH
10:18:24  <Celestar> the idea of a submap is that you can place EVERYTHING there
10:18:33  <Celestar> Lachlan: and?
10:18:34  <KUDr> crossings/curves in tunnels/bridges
10:18:36  <Celestar> Lachlan: it works, trust me
10:19:10  <Celestar> ok why don't we try to go to a 3D map and hope that zlib does the rest? :)
10:19:10  <KUDr> but then you need rectangular submaps
10:19:21  <Lachlan> well, Celestar, it's probably something silly to do with permissions or the like, but when I ./openttd it simply tells me that the file or folder does not exist.
10:19:24  <blathijs> Celestar: The attempt failed because we found too much other ugly things to improve, in my opinion
10:19:33  <caladan> heh, zlib will compress it but it's still full size in memory
10:19:35  <KUDr> and if you allow curves it will take way more than 3%
10:19:36  <Celestar> blathijs: possibly
10:19:51  <Celestar> caladan: memory is not really a problem. multiplayer is the problem.
10:19:57  <blathijs> caladan: for writing savegames, an indexed solution can be used that uses a lot less memory
10:20:02  <KUDr> and Celestar: clear tiles can eat 4 bytes instead of 8
10:20:13  <Lachlan> thought, my permissions are 777, so I highly doubt it'd be that...
10:20:18  <KUDr> so with 4 bytes as index it can eat the same memory
10:20:18  <blathijs> KUDr: you still need to allocate the full 8
10:20:26  <KUDr> blathijs:
10:20:27  <Celestar> KUDr: it would be helpful if not all tile types have the same memory usage.
10:20:28  <KUDr> no
10:20:31  <blathijs> Lachlan: what does ls -l openttd say?
10:20:42  <KUDr> you need more pools
10:20:52  <KUDr> one for each tile type
10:20:52  <blathijs> one for each tile type?
10:20:56  <blathijs> :-)
10:20:58  <KUDr> heh
10:21:01  <KUDr> nice
10:21:06  <blathijs> Lot of overhead, though
10:21:07  <Celestar> how many levels of indirection do we have then?
10:21:27  <KUDr> 1 i guess
10:21:31  <KUDr> we can see
10:21:44  <KUDr> it depends how it will be done
10:21:59  <Lachlan> "-rwxr-xr-x  1 whitey whitey 1265036 Jan  3 18:57 openttd"
10:23:20  <Celestar> KUDr: can you conjure up a concept?
10:23:33  <KUDr> i can try it
10:23:46  <KUDr> will need to think more about it but i can do it
10:25:00  <Celestar> KUDr: give it a try, I'm waiting
10:25:43  <KUDr> ok
10:26:01  <blathijs> KUDr: Lemme know how it goes
10:26:12  <KUDr> yes
10:26:23  * blathijs really needs to go away now, I was planning on leaving half an hour ago
10:26:29  <caladan> Maybe we should gather all this ideas in one place, so we can easily compareem
10:26:34  *** XeryusTC [] has joined #openttd
10:26:35  <blathijs> but you people caught my attentian
10:26:47  <Lachlan> any suggestions?
10:27:23  <blathijs> Lachlan: what's the exact error?
10:27:26  <caladan> Lachlan: ain't that dir? :D
10:27:59  <blathijs> Lachlan: It looks like it oughta work, at first glance
10:27:59  <Lachlan> "bash: ./openttd: No such file or directory"
10:28:09  <caladan> do cd openttd
10:28:12  <caladan> and then ./openttd
10:28:23  <Lachlan> hmm?
10:28:27  <blathijs> do?
10:28:30  <Lachlan> I'm in the same directory as the files.
10:28:37  <caladan> hmmm
10:29:02  <blathijs> caladan: There's no "d" in his ls -l output, so it's no dir
10:29:28  <Brianetta> oingo boingo
10:29:32  <blathijs> weird... I don't know what it is. No time left, sorry
10:29:48  <Lachlan> thanks for your help, anyway
10:30:31  <Darkvater> Lachlan: what does 'file openttd' say?
10:31:02  <Lachlan> "openttd: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped"
10:31:23  <Darkvater> can you open it for reading?
10:31:26  <Darkvater> eg vim openttd
10:31:28  <Darkvater> ors oemthing
10:31:36  <Celestar> hexdump is better :P
10:32:03  <Lachlan> a whole lot of A's, ^'s and @'s.
10:32:03  <Darkvater> or try another shell?
10:32:04  <Darkvater> just guessing here ;p
10:32:09  <Lachlan> another shell?
10:32:19  <Rubidium> has openttd the proper executable bits set?
10:32:25  <Celestar> yes
10:32:26  <Darkvater> perhaps your screen session doesn't allow you to execute programs? Does it work outside of screen?
10:32:29  <caladan> yes
10:32:34  <Darkvater> 11:22 < Lachlan> "-rwxr-xr-x  1 whitey whitey 1265036 Jan  3 18:57 openttd"
10:32:35  <Lachlan> nope
10:32:51  <Lachlan> I'll give it another try though
10:32:56  <peter1138> ldd openttd
10:33:01  <peter1138> might be missing libs
10:33:12  <Darkvater> peter1138: then it wouldn't be bash complaining
10:33:13  <Lachlan> no doubt it's something completely stupid.
10:33:40  <Darkvater> what version are you using?
10:33:49  <Lachlan> MiniIN
10:33:52  <Lachlan> ...
10:33:53  <Darkvater> oh
10:33:55  <peter1138> bugger off then ;p
10:33:55  * Lachlan grabs the version
10:33:59  <Darkvater> :)
10:34:09  <peter1138> if it's last nights, then... hmm
10:34:24  <Lachlan> well, if subsidiaries was working elsewhere, I'd be happy to use it.
10:35:43  <Darkvater> compiled yourself? downloaded from somewhere? where? when?
10:36:02  <Lachlan> downloaded off
10:36:37  <Darkvater> link?
10:37:00  <Lachlan> ?
10:37:40  <Darkvater> when?
10:37:49  <Lachlan> yesterday evening
10:38:25  <Darkvater> miniin's are still from dec 31 so it should work
10:38:35  <Darkvater> but I've never used it
10:38:50  <Lachlan> yes, I checked the revision before I started the server
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10:40:30  <Darkvater> sorry no idea
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10:40:46  <Lachlan> Hah...
10:40:59  <Lachlan> thanks for your help anyway
10:41:55  <peter1138> so what did ldd do?
10:42:18  <Lachlan> :o
10:42:22  <Lachlan> permission denied
10:43:24  <peter1138> o_O
10:43:26  <Darkvater> nice find peter1138 :)
10:43:48  <peter1138> any further as root? heh
10:43:51  <Lachlan> hmm...
10:43:58  <peter1138> possible a lib has incorrect permissions
10:44:10  <Lachlan> argh
10:44:53  <Lachlan> darn... I'll just leave hosting the game to other people
10:45:02  <Lachlan> thanks anyway, guys
10:46:52  <peter1138> hmm
10:47:30  <Lachlan> I don't want to go messing around with the server because it's not mine :p
10:48:13  <Lachlan> and hmm.. peter1138, would you like to be on the NSW Set testing list again?
10:48:24  <Lachlan> if anything, just to get an email once a week that you never open?
10:48:49  <caladan> ok, got to go...
10:48:56  <peter1138> ok
10:49:01  <peter1138> do i get to play with ausland too? ;)
10:49:06  <peter1138> or is that separate
10:49:12  <Darkvater> North American Station Set?
10:49:13  <Lachlan> peter1138, yes, you do
10:49:25  <Lachlan> Darkvater, what?
10:49:36  * Darkvater crawls back into his hole
10:53:20  <Darkvater> Lachlan: nothing ;)
10:53:55  <Lachlan> we're talking about the Australian Set, with that's what you mean
10:53:56  <Darkvater> a word of advice: if you make a minidump with code segments, do NOT install kerio firewall on XP cause you'll get a BSOD every time
10:54:25  <Darkvater> ah ok
10:54:34  <peter1138> huh? hmm
10:55:18  * peter1138 benchmarks more
10:55:47  <peter1138> i need to run a couple of dozen tests to get some average results... hh
10:56:20  <Zuu> I'm going to make a patch for a bug I found in RC2, ( ). As far as I know RC2 is in its own branch != trunk. What is the name of this RC2-branch?
10:56:42  <Rubidium> /branches/0.5
10:56:47  <peter1138> if the bug is in trunk too, make a patch for trunk
10:56:59  <Zuu> Only trunk or both?
10:57:11  <peter1138> only trunk. we can backport
10:57:17  <Zuu> Okay. Thanks
10:57:39  <peter1138> unless it's wildly different, heh
10:58:14  <peter1138> what's the solution, btw? disable building of airports larger than the max station spread might be feasible...
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11:00:06  <Zuu> It is more a fix than a soulution. I'll change RECT_MODE_TRY to RECT_MODE_TEST in the second call to StationRect_BeforeAddRect(..).
11:00:08  <Darkvater> Zuu: just for reference: your linux version "crashes" because you have assertions enabled. The windows one simply ignores the assertion
11:00:30  <Zuu> Darkvater: Okay
11:00:51  <hylje> and we run assertions enabled since we want bugs squashed
11:00:53  <Darkvater> perhaps I should've enabled assertions for release candidates...
11:01:13  <Darkvater> well, next time :)
11:01:53  <Zuu> Another fix would be to change the assertion so that airports will be let though. But I guess is better to redesign the place where the function is called (where the assertion is) than the other way around.
11:03:01  <Brianetta> Darkvater: assertion (assert_enabled) failed... continuing
11:03:34  <Darkvater> mine always crashes :)
11:04:11  <Brianetta> I'm sure there's a way to get the compiler to notify you of failed assertions, rather than halting execution
11:04:16  <Celestar> KUDr: and? any paper on the concept? :)
11:04:29  <KUDr> incomplete yet
11:04:39  <KUDr> do you want to see it?
11:05:34  <blathijs> Brianetta: The thing is, when an assertion fails, the program usually ended up in a very bad state
11:05:50  <Celestar> KUDr: of course :)
11:06:45  <Brianetta> blathijs: That's a judgement call, surely?
11:06:50  <KUDr> Celestar:, blathijs:
11:06:58  <Brianetta> You might just be asserting that there's a path for a train before it asses a signal
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11:07:09  <KUDr> not yet complete, but we can talk about it
11:07:20  <Celestar> Brianetta: an assert means something bad has happened
11:07:29  <Celestar> Darkvater: want your opinion on this as well
11:07:38  <Brianetta> Celestar: An assert means that the developer assert()ed something, and that wasn't the case
11:08:35  <Celestar> Brianetta: yes, and the developer usually damn well knew why he asserted it :)
11:08:39  <Celestar> KUDr: ok
11:08:43  <Celestar> I understand point 1)
11:08:54  <KUDr> good
11:09:29  <KUDr> as you can see it saves memory
11:09:31  <Celestar> I'm not sure we want the pools, a normally malloc/realloc might be better, because they are much faster
11:09:50  <Celestar> but maybe we should just go for 'small', 'medium', 'large'
11:09:56  <Celestar> 'xlarge'
11:09:56  <Darkvater> so is water now directly inside map or in small?
11:09:57  <KUDr> pool is term for any virtual array
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11:10:47  <KUDr> Darkvater: if there is bridge over it than in small
11:11:04  <KUDr> otherwise directly in the map
11:11:14  <blathijs> Brianetta: There are probably cases where you can continue after a failed assertion, but 9 times out of 10 the program will segfault or something very soon
11:12:01  <Celestar> so we have 'xlarge' tiles (houses), 'large' (tiles, stations, road, rail) ... and so on
11:12:32  <Celestar> KUDr: I think we should all drop then in one of the 3 or 4 size bins, no matter whether there is a bridge above or not
11:12:56  <Celestar> but we add one level of indirection at least. we need to find out how that impacts performance
11:13:48  <KUDr> Celestar: bridge above would require that [index+1] contains layered tile so it must be different
11:14:03  <blathijs> KUDr: You assumption 4 is nasty, leave it out if you can (the contigious part)
11:14:21  <Celestar> ok .. 10 bytes (xlarge), 8 bytes(large), 6 bytes (medium), 4 bytes(small)
11:14:27  <Celestar> whab about this:
11:14:32  <KUDr> blathijs: right
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11:15:04  <Celestar> typedef struct Tile { byte type; void *data; } Tile;
11:15:21  <blathijs> and using implicit tile links can be troublesome
11:15:30  <blathijs> implicit == the tile above is index + 1
11:15:41  <Celestar> so we are flexible and have readable code.
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11:16:07  <blathijs> that means you need to either reserver indices for later, or need to move around tiles to different indices with sufficient space around it
11:16:07  <Celestar> and then we basically (cast) data to what it really is.
11:16:28  <Celestar> shall I try that?
11:16:59  <KUDr> <blathijs> and using implicit tile links can be troublesome << no - the same concept as MS CLI has
11:17:33  <blathijs> Microsoft command line interface?
11:17:49  * blathijs thinks MS has not produces any usable CLI's so far, so I'm curious :-)
11:18:02  <KUDr> hehe
11:18:22  <KUDr> but their memory allocation concept is perfect
11:18:25  <Celestar> so what about my idea?
11:18:34  <blathijs> KUDr: Explain the concept?
11:18:40  <KUDr> it makes it faster than java for many cases
11:18:46  <blathijs> Celestar: I'm trying to picture it
11:18:53  <Celestar> blathijs: I'll draw it up, k?
11:18:54  <KUDr> 1) alloc from down to top
11:19:13  <KUDr> 2) once full, you 'compress' it by moving down
11:19:19  <blathijs> Celestar: you mean using a Tile struct for all sizes of tile?
11:19:21  <KUDr> so you fill gaps
11:19:43  <KUDr> and if you need to expand, you simply realloc
11:19:54  <Celestar> blathijs: I'll draw it up, wait :)
11:19:58  <KUDr> no
11:20:05  <KUDr> use largest needed
11:20:11  <blathijs> KUDr: Well, moving tiles is a costly operation (though it can be done by moving pointers in the new pool)
11:20:21  <blathijs> KUDr: but tiles chaning indices is hard
11:20:22  <KUDr> hehe
11:20:23  <KUDr> nope
11:20:31  <KUDr> it happens rarely
11:20:32  <blathijs> KUDr: You need to update _all_ references too
11:20:49  <KUDr> this is another point
11:21:08  <KUDr> not all refs, but only one
11:21:11  <KUDr> in the map
11:21:29  <blathijs> how about vehicle->tile or order->target?
11:21:31  <KUDr> because all = 1
11:21:32  <blathijs> that kinda stuff
11:21:41  <KUDr> they hold index into map
11:21:43  <KUDr> as now
11:21:58  <blathijs> then how do you know at what level your vehicle is?
11:22:01  <KUDr> where is index of pool and index of tile insde pool
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11:22:19  <KUDr> what level?
11:22:23  <KUDr> z coord
11:22:37  <KUDr> so you locate your tile easily
11:22:40  <blathijs> so, you include a z coord in all references
11:22:42  <blathijs> hmmkay
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11:23:03  <KUDr> not in references
11:23:17  <KUDr> i don't understand you
11:23:26  <KUDr> who needs it?
11:23:30  <KUDr> vehicles only
11:23:32  <blathijs> references in the general sense
11:23:44  <blathijs> not C++ reference sense
11:23:45  <KUDr> everything else can now be only on surface
11:23:58  <KUDr> and surface is where the index points
11:23:59  <blathijs> You're doing the "only now" thing ;-p
11:24:12  <KUDr> :) not C++ sense
11:24:21  <KUDr> why?
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11:24:42  <KUDr> if you need z-coord in depot, you can add it to the depot structure
11:24:46  <peter1138> damn, i need to test unifont
11:24:50  <peter1138> but czech won't compile :P
11:25:09  <blathijs> KUDr: k, agredd
11:25:18  <KUDr> blathijs: you must misunderstood it totally if you tell that it is 'only for now'
11:25:26  <Darkvater> I think what kudr means is that everything is on the surface by default. If a vehicle is on a bridge, it's on a submap, or whatever else anyways, and it has some variable pointing there. Then it doesn't matter if you check stack or submap cause you have to check something
11:25:58  <blathijs> Darkvater: You could just use a direct pointer to a tile, regardless wheter it is surface or not
11:26:07  <blathijs> Darkvater: but, I see the point
11:26:37  <KUDr> : then it is unmovable memory block
11:26:40  <Darkvater> well or something, indirection, direct pointer to stack, etc.
11:26:54  <KUDr> you need managable memory
11:27:21  <KUDr> so no pointers or indices to layers
11:27:39  <KUDr> only tile indices + z coord
11:28:02  <KUDr> an z coord can be part of TileIndex
11:28:05  <Darkvater> < lucnh
11:28:41  <KUDr> < nicotine
11:28:57  <blathijs> KUDr: You need to make a distinction between reference to a tile (including z index) or reference to a XY location
11:29:06  <blathijs> currently those are the same
11:29:52  <Maedhros> morning
11:31:17  <roboboy> ive noticed on MP servers there arent many oil refineries
11:31:50  <peter1138> yes, it's a TGP problem
11:31:55  <peter1138> well, caused by
11:32:13  <peter1138> basically there are not enough flat areas suitable for them..
11:33:46  <KUDr> blathijs: XY is addressed by one part of TileInex
11:33:53  <KUDr> so no problem here
11:33:59  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7795 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.c newgrf_config.c):
11:33:59  <CIA-1> -Codechange: [NewGRF] When safety checking, allow an Action E that force
11:33:59  <CIA-1> activates the GRF. Unfortunately this requires knowing the GRF ID in advance
11:33:59  <CIA-1> (before the Action 8) so the static GRFs are now scanned twice on start up, once
11:33:59  <CIA-1> for the GRF ID, and then for the safety check. (This fix allows unifont.grf to
11:34:00  <CIA-1> be used.)
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11:35:07  <KUDr> <peter1138> basically there are not enough flat areas suitable for them.. << look at subtopical maps << the same concept can be for all climates
11:35:19  <KUDr> only richk67 did't like it
11:35:26  <blathijs> KUDr: yes, but you still need some way to address XY without the Z part :-)
11:35:52  <KUDr> blathijs: is it problem to just ignore the z part?
11:36:01  <KUDr> and you have it
11:36:41  <KUDr> i told you that you misunderstood the point
11:36:44  <KUDr> :)
11:36:48  <roboboy> will it be fixed for 0.5.0 final
11:39:19  <blathijs> KUDr: yes, that is a problem
11:39:37  <blathijs> KUDr: Since it is confusing and spoils memory (even just a little)
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11:39:53  <KUDr> no it saves memory
11:39:59  <KUDr> 4 bytes instead of 8
11:40:05  <KUDr> for plain tiles
11:40:35  <blathijs> "Just ignoring the Z part" is confusing and spoils memory
11:40:40  <blathijs> the memory for the z part
11:40:54  <blathijs> I'm saying you should just have a typedef to reference XY locations on the map
11:41:00  <KUDr> no - it fits into 4 bytes of TileIndex
11:41:01  <Celestar> blathijs: KUDr
11:41:05  <Celestar>
11:41:06  <blathijs> and a seperate typedef to reference XYZ locations on the map
11:41:07  <Celestar> please load
11:41:50  * stillunknown has gotten to the point of making trains aware of their positions on a bridge
11:42:47  <KUDr> Celestar: this wastes memory
11:42:52  <Celestar> KUDr: how so?
11:43:04  <KUDr> typedef struct Tile {
11:43:04  <KUDr> 	void *data;
11:43:25  <peter1138> mmm, 8 bytes per tile
11:43:26  <peter1138> or 4
11:43:32  <Celestar> peter1138: yes.
11:43:47  <KUDr> my concept sves 4 bytes
11:43:50  <Celestar> similar to TilePtr
11:43:52  <KUDr> saves
11:44:07  <Celestar> KUDr: please remember that the problem is not RAM, the problem is savegame size.
11:44:22  <Celestar> where pointers are converted to indices anyway
11:44:29  <KUDr> it has no influence to map size
11:44:35  <KUDr> huh
11:44:38  <KUDr> savegame size
11:44:39  <Maedhros> heh, this is new map array scheme 12, by the looks of :)
11:44:50  <Celestar> KUDr: the whole problem is map size is the savegame size.
11:44:58  <Celestar> Maedhros: about yes.
11:45:12  <Celestar> KUDr: the whole problem with map size is the savegame size.
11:45:16  <KUDr> Celestar: savegame size can be the same
11:45:21  <blathijs> Celestar: I think we can really improve on savegame size by just storing the relevant part of a tile, depending on the tile type
11:45:31  <Celestar> blathijs: that's why the void pointer
11:45:34  <KUDr> it doen't matter how you store it in memory
11:45:56  <KUDr> and you need to save RAM as well
11:46:14  <Celestar> depends :P
11:46:16  <blathijs> Celestar: ie, what KUDr does in memory can be in savegames as well
11:46:19  <Celestar> _I_ don't
11:46:29  <Celestar> :P
11:46:42  <Celestar> got 4 gigs in my workstation and 2 gigs in my laptop
11:46:44  <Celestar> :)
11:46:50  <Celestar> where's Darkvater
11:47:00  <Zuu> What other files than the code itself should I edit before I create a patch?
11:47:02  <KUDr> Celestar: but not all users have it
11:47:04  <blathijs> I'm wondering if we should bother with memory savings a lot...
11:47:09  <Zuu> Should I include my name somewhere?
11:47:18  <Celestar> blathijs: we need to bother with savegame savings, not memory savings
11:47:37  <KUDr> Celestar: so why not full 3d map :)
11:47:41  <peter1138> we need to bother with memory savings
11:47:48  <Celestar> KUDr: if you can efficiently store it :P
11:47:53  <blathijs> KUDr: We should not _not_ bother with memory that much
11:47:54  <Celestar> peter1138: yes, but not THAT much
11:48:04  <KUDr> Celestar: of course
11:48:06  <peter1138> simutrans is almost unusable at large map sizes because of it
11:48:15  <KUDr> unused tiles won't be saved
11:48:17  <Celestar> peter1138: simutrans has about 128 BYTES per tile.
11:48:31  <KUDr> heh 120?
11:48:51  <KUDr> too much
11:48:58  <Celestar> I'm talking about less that we have now, plus a pointer.
11:49:42  <KUDr> but if you don't need the pointer (for most tiles) you can use it by data
11:49:46  <stillunknown> Celestar: interrested in a first doing something patch?
11:49:50  <KUDr> and you get my concept
11:49:58  <Celestar> so even with 32 bytes per tile a 1024x1024 map is 32 MBytes.
11:49:59  <KUDr> so what is wrong on it?
11:50:02  <Celestar> stillunknown: go ahead
11:50:06  <Zuu> Just checking, is "svn diff > airport_fix.patch" the preferable way to make a patch?
11:50:23  <blathijs> Zuu: yes
11:50:24  <Celestar> KUDr: I'd say ether TileTypes is the types, or TileTypes is small, medium, large, not a mixture.
11:50:27  <Celestar> Zuu: yeah
11:50:53  <KUDr> Celestar: i don't understand
11:50:55  <blathijs> KUDr: I'd say every tile of a given type has the same size, so we can just use a lookup table
11:51:03  <blathijs> s/KUDr/Celestar/
11:51:22  <Celestar> blathijs: I don't understand.
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11:52:43  <stillunknown> my usual place is acting up, is there any place patches can be posted?
11:52:55  <peter1138> forums
11:52:56  <peter1138> bugs
11:53:03  <peter1138> pastebin
11:53:03  <peter1138> heh
11:53:06  <Celestar> ^^
11:53:20  <caladan> is there agreement how the tiles and map should look like?
11:53:27  <Celestar> caladan: nope :P
11:53:34  <Celestar> but a fruitful discussion
11:53:38  <Celestar> :)
11:54:05  <blathijs> Celestar: You can just store the tiletype (station, rail, etc) and determine the size (small, medium, large) from the tiletype
11:54:14  <blathijs> ie, no need to store both
11:54:20  <stillunknown>
11:54:23  <Celestar> blathijs: have you read my concept?
11:54:24  <stillunknown> @Celestar
11:54:32  <Celestar> stillunknown: having a look
11:54:40  <blathijs> Celestar: Still reading, but I was responding to your
11:54:41  <stillunknown> don't except savegames to work, new or old
11:54:49  <blathijs> 12:50 < Celestar> KUDr: I'd say ether TileTypes is the types, or TileTypes is small, medium, large, not a mixture.
11:55:00  <Celestar> stillunknown: does it work?
11:55:08  <Celestar> :)
11:55:11  <stillunknown> yes, but any old savegame has all bridges wood
11:55:16  <Celestar> stillunknown: wow
11:55:22  <Celestar> KUDr: check out stillunknown's patch :)
11:55:29  <Celestar> stillunknown: that's not much of a problem ^^
11:55:48  <stillunknown> and the memory manager has no load and save feature
11:56:16  <Celestar> of course it doesn't
11:56:17  <Zuu> Okay Patch uploaded to
11:56:36  <Celestar> peter1138: blathijs: maybe you want to look at stillunknown's patch as well :)
11:56:42  <KUDr> Celestar: this is the submap concept
11:57:01  <caladan> and it has it's own simple memory management
11:57:02  <Celestar> yeah
11:57:16  <Celestar> it is, KUDr :)
11:57:20  <stillunknown> big memory management thanks to caladan
11:57:30  <KUDr> yes, but it is what we talked about - many limitations
11:57:34  <peter1138> would be better with pools
11:57:50  <caladan> i have another idea for that
11:57:52  <stillunknown> pools are complete magic
11:58:01  <Celestar> ok
11:58:09  <Celestar> Darkvater: HELP :P
11:58:40  <stillunknown> if this concept appeals enough, i will expand it to tunnels and other vehicles
11:58:42  <caladan> there should be a *custom* malloc and free
11:58:56  <Athorium> what's the last revision?
11:59:15  <Celestar> stillunknown: standby with coding, we are just discussing how that map should look in the future.
11:59:19  <Maedhros> Athorium: 7795
11:59:20  <Athorium> no more revisions or my tortoise are idiot?
11:59:33  <Athorium> oh, ok
11:59:41  <caladan> what you think of that custom malloc and free?
11:59:59  <blathijs> caladan: New pools have fast malloc/free style interface
12:00:12  <blathijs> caladan: only limitation is that all allocations are of the same size
12:00:15  <caladan> blathijs: if like this, then ok
12:00:27  <caladan> blathijs: if are the same it suxxx :]
12:00:56  <stillunknown> Celestar: i'm away for a while, let me know what comes of this discussion
12:01:00  <stillunknown> by pm
12:01:09  <Celestar> stillunknown: yeah
12:01:14  <Celestar> stillunknown: it will go on for days I think :)
12:01:31  <blathijs> caladan: What requirements do your "custom malloc/free" have?
12:01:46  <caladan> blathijs: alloc ANY needed size
12:01:59  <blathijs> lemme rephrases
12:02:00  <KUDr> stillunknown: how do you avoid overlapping submaps?
12:02:02  <blathijs> s/s$/
12:02:17  <blathijs> caladan: In what way will your custom malloc/free be different from normal malloc/free?
12:02:21  <stillunknown> KUDr: i don't, bridges over tunnels are possible?
12:02:42  <KUDr> yes, but i mean not one ove another, but same Z
12:02:52  <stillunknown> as should bridges over bridges maybe
12:02:52  <caladan> it will keep track of mallocs, so you can free them if anythinke else forgets to
12:02:59  <stillunknown> the map has no concept of z
12:03:10  <caladan> then if the mem becomes too much fragmented you can just make it whole again
12:03:20  <KUDr> stillunknown: so two bridges can cross at same Z?
12:03:52  <peter1138> a reference count, then
12:03:53  <peter1138> heh
12:03:54  <stillunknown> atm no, because the map is just a concept now, but in the future, probably yes
12:04:02  <stillunknown> not that it should be
12:04:04  <peter1138> i remember when the newgrf stuff had a ref count
12:04:10  <blathijs> caladan: I'd say just do proper deallocating :-)
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12:04:13  <peter1138> i ripped it all out when i replaced it with a pool
12:04:23  <stillunknown> KUDr: adding z awareness is not the issue
12:04:47  <blathijs> peter1138: "it"?
12:04:48  <KUDr> stillunknown: ok, question was if it is there already
12:04:54  <stillunknown> no
12:04:56  <peter1138> blathijs: spritegroup pool
12:05:05  <blathijs> peter1138: what did you rip out
12:05:06  <blathijs> ?
12:05:13  <peter1138> blathijs: originally it leaked memory everywhere, then i added ref counts, then i ripped out it and replaced it with a pool
12:05:21  <peter1138> err. out it -> it out
12:06:12  <stillunknown> i'm away now
12:07:06  <blathijs> peter1138: So, you never free individual items, even if they are unused?
12:07:21  <peter1138> correct
12:07:29  <caladan> huh...
12:07:35  <blathijs> So, you're still leaking, but into a controlled area :-)
12:07:38  <peter1138> no
12:07:38  <caladan> look, we need coherent memory management too
12:07:43  <peter1138> they're only created on start up
12:07:47  <peter1138> during the game it's all read only
12:08:14  <blathijs> hmmkay
12:08:31  <blathijs> peter1138: But you don't know how much items you will have before starting to load them>?
12:08:36  <peter1138> nope
12:08:51  <blathijs> k :-)
12:08:56  <peter1138> but newstatsw uses about 7000 on its own
12:10:32  * blathijs needs to get off again
12:11:49  <caladan> ok, im gone now too :D
12:12:25  <blathijs> Celestar: Why is the next pointer not in Tile* ?
12:12:37  <blathijs> Celestar: I think every tiletype requires a next pointer?
12:15:05  <blathijs> Celestar: Anyway, I like the writeup. It uses pointers, instead of indices, which is good for speed :-)
12:15:32  <blathijs> Celestar: Might require some pimping of the savegame format to properly write out, but that's doable
12:15:49  * blathijs wants more time :-)
12:16:00  <peter1138> get sacked
12:16:21  <blathijs> I don't have a job
12:16:38  <blathijs> And currently I'm not even doing much for studies either
12:16:48  <peter1138> oh
12:16:53  <blathijs> but I like too much things :-)
12:16:59  <peter1138> give them up
12:17:02  <peter1138> make ottd your only hobby
12:17:13  <KUDr> blathijs: Celestar: reload
12:17:20  <KUDr> there it is with pointers
12:17:23  <blathijs> i did that during the last map rewrite. Didn't work out ;-p
12:17:46  <blathijs> KUDr: Wrong url?
12:17:59  <KUDr> ohh
12:18:00  <blathijs> Fixes: the issue when non-player-based _patches setting has a callback. When such callback is specified it is not handled properly in MP games.
12:18:11  <KUDr>
12:18:22  <KUDr> blathijs: Celestar: ^^
12:18:28  <KUDr> sorry
12:18:48  <Darkvater> you guys talk too much :)
12:19:21  * blathijs really needs to go
12:20:00  <Celestar>
12:20:12  <Celestar> updated
12:20:19  <Celestar> blathijs: because I was wrong.
12:20:56  <peter1138> new map array 2
12:21:24  <Celestar> (foo)bar->qux is the same as (foo)(bar->qux) right?
12:22:03  <Darkvater> yes
12:22:16  <Celestar> \o/ got the associativity right
12:22:26  <Celestar> remove_spelling_errors();
12:22:42  <Celestar> hm . I get a segfault when I run that file
12:23:11  <Darkvater> Celestar: :O that's from branches/map isn't it?
12:23:22  <Celestar> Darkvater: no, that's what I did just now.
12:24:02  <Celestar> it is fundamentally different
12:24:09  <Celestar> check the "tile" struct
12:25:09  <Darkvater> how do you want to use this contigiously? Eg you hav eno idea how big your data* section will be
12:26:02  <peter1138> use a different pool depending on the size of data?
12:26:14  <peter1138> or just random malloc/frees, heh
12:26:19  <Celestar> Darkvater: you dont.
12:26:31  <Celestar> Darkvater: we run all our accessors just throughout the map.
12:26:58  <Celestar> and hope your MC is fast enough :)
12:27:00  <Darkvater> but you still have to allocate memory for your data pointer
12:27:25  <Darkvater> which is just a waste of 4/8 bytes for nothing as you were opposed to previously for the stacked approach
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12:29:33  <peter1138> not for void :D
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12:29:56  <Darkvater> meh?
12:30:03  <Darkvater> it's still a pointer to somewhere your real data is
12:30:23  <peter1138> MP_VOID that is
12:30:28  <Celestar> <= this compiles and runs.
12:30:36  <Darkvater> he, *slap*
12:30:37  <peter1138> sorry, i'm being silly
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12:31:18  <Celestar> well. we can put the data back to where *data; is if you guys prefer :P
12:31:47  <Darkvater> next* pointers?
12:32:00  <Celestar> to whatever is above
12:32:34  <Darkvater> so back to stack? :p
12:33:00  <Celestar> dunno
12:33:04  <Celestar> I favour the submaps
12:33:56  <Celestar> I guess we shouldn't use bitfields anyway :P
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12:34:58  <peter1138> hmm, ok, pool or realloc...
12:35:11  <Darkvater> flip coint
12:35:14  <Darkvater> eh
12:35:14  <Darkvater> -t
12:35:24  <Celestar> the question is stack or submaps :P
12:35:39  <peter1138> heads
12:35:43  <peter1138> is that pool or is that realloc? :p
12:35:50  <Darkvater> lol
12:35:53  <Celestar> whatever is faster
12:36:00  <Celestar> hm..
12:36:06  <Celestar> what about this.
12:36:07  <Darkvater> peter1138: for which is this btw?
12:36:11  <peter1138> spritecache
12:36:13  <Darkvater> sprite/aplette?
12:36:27  <peter1138> getting on to that, yes
12:36:45  <Darkvater> the most important part is access speed
12:36:54  <Darkvater> I think realloc will win with that
12:37:13  <Celestar> ok so we've discussed for hours now and what was the result? peter1138 KUDr blathijs ?
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12:39:12  <Darkvater> Celestar: do you really think you'll get an answer this soon? :) Thiking back to maprewrite where this took at least a few wwke
12:39:15  <Darkvater> s
12:39:25  <Celestar> :)
12:40:56  <KUDr> i would switch all to C++ first and then _m[tile_index] can still work with any layout
12:41:18  <KUDr> and then we can try different layouts
12:41:39  <KUDr> and composed indices (with z coord)
12:42:02  <KUDr> so it will get isolated from the rest of code
12:42:21  * Celestar is outta this discussion for a moment
12:42:40  <Darkvater> hehe C++ must be some magic word :p
12:43:03  <KUDr> it is << everybody hides
12:43:28  * peter1138 TIC/TOC benchmarks
12:43:33  <Celestar> hm
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12:43:40  <peter1138> these figures don't add up
12:43:54  <Celestar> ok we don't do a map rewrite, right?
12:44:16  <KUDr> Celestar: not as it was before
12:44:23  <KUDr> smaller steps would be better
12:44:49  <KUDr> but area submaps is step aside
12:44:55  <KUDr> not forward
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12:47:58  <Celestar> _m[tile_index] still works with any layout
12:48:05  <Celestar> why do we need C++ for that?
12:48:18  <KUDr> not with any
12:48:29  <KUDr> like different sizes
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12:49:14  <KUDr> sizeof(Tile) can be variable
12:49:30  <KUDr> and tiles can be stacked
12:49:49  <Celestar> isn't that possible in C99 ?
12:50:01  <KUDr> we should break the current limitations
12:50:10  <KUDr> how?
12:50:20  <Celestar> I'm not sure
12:50:49  <KUDr> i can't imagine how CPU could know what item in the array has what size
12:51:06  <KUDr> when accessing array
12:51:25  <Celestar> I'm not sure we'Re all happy with C++ :P
12:51:33  <KUDr> but with like access it can be simpler
12:51:53  <KUDr> Celestar: code can still be C
12:51:58  <Celestar> hehe
12:52:19  * qball hacks a array size estimators and array size estimator estimator in the next intel
12:52:21  <KUDr> only for some special cases (where you can benefit from it) it will use C++ syntax
12:52:30  <Celestar> as_number?
12:52:38  <KUDr> it will hold the code simple
12:52:40  <pv2b> i can see the point in using c++ just for the templates.
12:53:13  <KUDr> pv2b: here it can help with overloaded {} indexing operator
12:53:18  <KUDr> []
12:53:27  <pv2b> ugh. overloading :-)
12:53:31  <Celestar> KUDr: can you go on with that model? like telling me how TILE_SMALL and so on would look?
12:53:49  <pv2b> at least it makes sense for operator[]
12:53:52  <KUDr> yes, it is used heavily and is better readable than functions
12:54:12  <KUDr> Celestar: as current tiles
12:54:25  <Celestar> KUDr: and where do we put the bridge then?
12:54:27  <KUDr> except that they will need 4 more bits
12:54:34  <KUDr> in layers
12:54:52  * Celestar scratches head .. I don't get this
12:54:52  <Darkvater>
12:54:57  <KUDr> do you want to see accessor for the layered tiles too?
12:54:58  <Darkvater> haha awsome thread
12:55:03  <Darkvater> peter1138: read it :
12:55:05  <Darkvater> )
12:55:12  <Celestar> KUDr: yes.. I want to know how big a normal 1024x1024 map is :)
12:55:28  <Darkvater> that depends on what is on it
12:55:28  <KUDr> 4 MB
12:55:46  <Celestar> now how do you compute the 4 MB?
12:55:55  <Celestar> 4 bytes per clear tile?
12:56:00  <peter1138> heh
12:56:08  <peter1138> ok
12:56:21  <peter1138> my total usage going from 1.5% to 2.5% must be spurious
12:56:30  <KUDr> Celestar: each basic (simple) tile has 4 bytes (just TileInMapArray)
12:56:36  <peter1138> as with TIC/TOC() i get a 7% increase
12:57:01  <peter1138> which is 1.5% to 1.6% total
12:57:09  <Celestar> KUDr: ok could you generate some more code? like how a bridge looks .. and how we move from one bridge tile to another?
12:57:12  <KUDr> Celestar: or it can be 8 bytes (as now)
12:57:14  <peter1138> that's debugging...
12:57:20  <Darkvater> OMG
12:57:21  <peter1138> 2.6%
12:57:31  <Celestar> just like tile += GetNextBridgeTile(direction) should be possible
12:57:33  <Darkvater> I just heard we're going to switch to vista :s
12:57:36  <Celestar> KUDr: or more :)
12:57:37  <peter1138> o_
12:57:38  <peter1138> O
12:57:43  <Celestar> Darkvater: have fun :P
12:57:47  <peter1138> hmm
12:57:49  <Darkvater> peter1138: you did tic/toc in release mode, irhgt?
12:57:57  <KUDr> Celestar: i can try...
12:58:01  <Celestar> Darkvater: I've decided that this department will not allow Visa on any computer before 2009
12:58:04  <peter1138> yes
12:58:29  <peter1138> our makefile setup doesn't allow profiling without in release mode
12:58:33  <peter1138> -out
12:58:52  <Darkvater> BUG!\
12:59:18  <Darkvater> you can do vs2005 profiling though, the instrumentation/sampling method there works like a charm
12:59:25  <peter1138> hmm
12:59:30  <peter1138> wiat
12:59:37  <peter1138> i was TIC/TOCing the wrong thing :P
12:59:44  <peter1138> (realloc vs pool, not original)
12:59:49  <Celestar> KUDr: ok we need up to 10 bytes per tile
12:59:56  <Darkvater> hehe
12:59:56  * peter1138 adds in original figures
13:00:14  <KUDr> Celestar: 10 bytes?
13:00:22  <Brianetta> 10 bytes?  No room for expansion.
13:00:39  <KUDr> for signals we will need more soon
13:00:54  <Celestar> KUDr: signals? in house tiles?
13:01:06  <peter1138> Darkvater: suck
13:01:14  <KUDr> house?
13:01:19  <Darkvater> blow
13:01:24  <Celestar> KUDr: house is the biggest tile (see newhouses)
13:01:29  <peter1138> Darkvater: compared to the current code, with realloc is 21.5% slow and pool is 24.7% slower
13:01:30  <Celestar> KUDr: rail is rather small.
13:01:41  <KUDr> now
13:01:54  <Celestar> KUDr: we don't need 32 more bits in rail ...
13:01:58  <Celestar> at least I hope not
13:01:59  <KUDr> but newsignals will need storage for negotiation data
13:02:05  <Darkvater> peter1138: ok; but that's really specific to only that part of the code. Total impact would be smaller of course
13:02:08  <Darkvater> but
13:02:15  <Darkvater> peter1138: how can realloc be 20% slower?
13:02:25  <Darkvater> I would've thought 5% max or something
13:02:28  <Celestar> KUDr: why store it in map? why not store it in the vehicle?
13:02:35  <peter1138> Darkvater: discrete arrays -> struct
13:02:38  <Celestar> realloc 20% slower than WHAT?
13:02:39  <peter1138> perhaps?
13:02:39  <Darkvater> or it's cause the compiler can't use fixed values anymore
13:02:46  <peter1138> possibly that
13:02:55  <KUDr> Celestar: it is property of signal, not vehicle
13:03:06  <Celestar> KUDr: and what do you want to store? the vehicle index?
13:03:17  <Darkvater> peter1138: :O you coded Born_Acorn's buffer? Looking mighty good
13:03:32  <KUDr> Celestar: maybe 4 veh indices
13:03:39  <Darkvater> although half-snow-buffer-tile would be great ^^
13:03:49  <KUDr> for 4 signal/direction combinations
13:03:59  <Celestar> KUDr: you have a very different idea on newsignalling than I do :)
13:04:16  <KUDr> heh maybe
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13:04:29  <Celestar> I need about 4 bits for what I have in mind for newsignalling
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13:04:43  <Brianetta> newsignalling (: (: (:
13:05:12  <KUDr> Celestar: and therefore you think that your concept is better and less limiting for the future?
13:05:41  <Celestar> KUDr: I'm just not fond of the idea of having 4 bytes of vehicle indices in the map array :)
13:05:41  <peter1138> Darkvater: i did, yes
13:05:41  <KUDr> I am talking about design, not first step
13:05:53  <Celestar> KUDr: what will the signal need the vehicle index for?
13:06:11  <KUDr> Celestar: if map array can be dynamic-sized why not
13:06:15  <Celestar> KUDr: but even theoretically, I'd say a maximum of 2 vehicle indices. as there cannot be more than 2 trains per tile.
13:06:36  <peter1138> Darkvater: heee, in debug mode, realloc is 8% slower, and the pool 16%
13:06:45  <peter1138> guess the optimisation really helps with the fixed array
13:06:58  <Brianetta> Celestar: How many ships can there be?
13:07:05  <Brianetta> I'm sure there can be four road vehicles
13:07:06  <Darkvater> :)
13:07:07  <Celestar> ships don't have signals
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13:07:39  <Brianetta> Ships should explode when they touch, like trains
13:07:49  <Brianetta> That'd fix perfrmance issues with busy shipping lanes
13:08:03  <peter1138> heh
13:08:03  <Darkvater> lol @Brianetta
13:08:05  <KUDr> iCelestar: therefore i have variable tile size
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13:08:24  <Celestar> KUDr: yeah ok ... :)
13:08:30  <Celestar> KUDr: I'd still like to see more code :)
13:08:32  <Tuzzy> ships capacities and speeds are out of touch with reality
13:08:38  <Darkvater> peter1138: that ~20% is then the impact during gameplay? Or did you add init to it as well?
13:08:48  <Brianetta> Tuzzy: Think of them as rowing boats
13:08:58  <Celestar> Tuzzy: I think speeds are ok, but capacity .... :S
13:09:06  <Tuzzy> well, a rowing boat might hold as much as some of these ships
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13:09:10  <KUDr> Celestar: i would like to work on it but we are still discussing and i am not multithreaded (old model)
13:09:20  <peter1138> Darkvater: i skipped the bit that does loading, so just gameplay
13:09:27  <Darkvater> bummer ;)
13:09:32  <Celestar> KUDr: ok I'll leave you in peace for a bit
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13:09:43  <Celestar> peter1138: the whole game is 20% slower?
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13:09:59  <peter1138> no, just GetRawSprite()
13:10:00  <stillunknown> slower with what?
13:12:29  <Darkvater> << rofl
13:12:57  <Darkvater> Celestar: peter1138 said something about a total impact of 1.5%
13:14:13  <peter1138> lol
13:14:19  <Celestar> Darkvater: what's the benefit?
13:14:29  <Darkvater> nothing
13:14:41  <Darkvater> but with another 20% penalty we'll get 500 million sprites ;p
13:14:52  <Celestar> hm..
13:14:56  <Celestar> peter1138: how big is the diff?
13:15:16  <peter1138> 8KB for this bit
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13:15:26  <Celestar> peter1138: can I have a look?
13:15:27  <peter1138> Darkvater: you can keep the static array
13:15:43  <Darkvater> sprites = malloc(500000000);
13:16:20  <peter1138> but the penalty then is... about 2.8 GB
13:16:42  <Darkvater> I don't mind a little swapping
13:16:44  <peter1138> hehe
13:16:52  <Darkvater> and its effect on savegame sizes is 0
13:16:56  <peter1138> the best bit is when it does the LRU loop
13:16:57  <Darkvater> so gog \o/
13:17:10  <peter1138> it'll loop all those once every couple of seconds
13:17:13  <peter1138> it's a bit slow
13:17:33  <peter1138> obviously i limit the LRU loop to the number of sprites loaded, not the number of possible sprites...
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13:18:12  <peter1138> Darkvater: savegames sizes? well i don't think anything saves sprites...
13:18:21  <peter1138> i hope that eyecandy patch has moved on since then...
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13:18:35  <Darkvater> I was joking since Celestar said we should only worry about savegame size ;p
13:18:39  <peter1138> i know
13:23:31  * Celestar punches Darkvater
13:23:40  <Darkvater> :>
13:24:03  <peter1138> damn
13:24:07  <peter1138> i like this debug/release thing
13:24:40  <Darkvater> I almost filed a bugreport about it yesterday. Changed --enable-debug from 3 to 0 and the source just didn't want to rebuild
13:24:50  <Celestar> why not? :P
13:24:53  <Darkvater> then I realized it was in a different folder and all it did was copy the binary
13:24:59  <peter1138> it didn't need to rebuild :)
13:24:59  <Celestar> lol ok
13:28:48  <Celestar> where are those folders? :o
13:28:52  <Darkvater> bin/
13:29:02  <Darkvater> or you mean objs/debug and objs/release
13:29:06  <Celestar> bah
13:29:09  <Celestar> stupid me
13:29:26  <Celestar> KUDr: I think I'm slowing beginning to understand what you aim for :)
13:29:59  <KUDr> hmm, slowing or beginning?
13:30:06  <Celestar> slowly beginning :P
13:31:08  <KUDr> look now at TileHeader
13:33:33  <peter1138>
13:33:42  <KUDr> it is hard to express fixed-position bitfields in C
13:35:03  <Darkvater> (sc->lru != -32768) ?
13:35:28  <peter1138> hmm
13:35:46  <Darkvater> is that some magic number for invalid lru?
13:35:48  <Darkvater> a2
13:35:50  <Darkvater> grr
13:35:51  <Darkvater> a2
13:35:54  <peter1138> pass
13:35:54  <Darkvater> jezus
13:36:06  <hylje> WTF
13:36:15  <hylje> yapf road vehicles are fucking crazu
13:36:22  *** gass [~any@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:36:23  <peter1138> crazu!
13:36:25  <hylje> they get confused if the roads have loops in them
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13:40:38  <stillunknown> Celestar: did you and KUDr reach some kind of agreement?
13:40:58  <KUDr> stillunknown still discussing
13:41:01  <qball> hmmm what algorithm does YAPF use?
13:41:04  <KUDr> don't hurry
13:41:15  <KUDr> qball: A*
13:43:05  <stillunknown> KUDr: you talked about something called stacked tiles
13:43:44  <KUDr> yes, blathijs's idea
13:43:53  <stillunknown> are there docs on that?
13:44:00  <KUDr> and seems better (more flexible)
13:44:14  <KUDr> at least for the future improvements
13:44:53  <stillunknown> anything written down about how that would be done?
13:46:11  <KUDr> working on it
13:54:05  <Celestar> stillunknown: there was some early prototype two years ago or something
13:54:12  <Celestar> and we're reviving it
13:55:34  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7796 /trunk/ (config.lib src/strgen/strgen.c): (log message trimmed)
13:55:34  <CIA-1> -Fix (r7759): cygwin does not need to rewrite the paths for strgen.
13:55:34  <CIA-1> -Fix (r7759): supply the correct flags to cygwin to make it compile.
13:55:34  <CIA-1> Note: cygwin itself is 'broken'. Known issues with cygwin are:
13:55:34  <CIA-1>  - bash does not work when including files that have dos line ending (\r\n).
13:55:36  <CIA-1>  This causes the strange errors in config.lib. The solution is running:
13:55:38  <CIA-1>  dos2unix config.lib
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13:57:35  <Sacro> Rubidium: or telling people to choose the right line endings when installing cygwin
13:57:51  <KUDr> Celestar: stillunknown: some update, still incomplete >>
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13:58:45  <Rubidium> Sacro: bash should work with either '\r\n' and '\n', especially on windows
13:59:03  <Sacro> Rubidium: its strange that it doesnt actually...
13:59:33  <glx> KUDr: little error in struct ClearTile
13:59:50  <KUDr> :)
13:59:56  <KUDr> more errors
14:00:27  <KUDr> should be TreesTile
14:00:33  <glx> indeed it's the second ClearTile that is a TreesTile (and the hdr has wrong type)
14:00:35  <KUDr> the second one
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14:00:59  <KUDr> ahh
14:01:06  <KUDr> reload
14:01:56  <glx> better :)
14:02:34  <glx> of course all *Tile struct should be typedef to be used in struct Tile ;)
14:02:59  <KUDr> no
14:03:03  <KUDr> they will be C++
14:03:07  <KUDr> :)
14:04:07  <KUDr> in C++ you can make fixed bitfields (i.e. lowest 2 bits will be always size_category)
14:04:33  <KUDr> or we can use C and accessors for all members
14:04:42  <Celestar> KUDr: reading
14:05:02  <KUDr> Celestar: GetUpperLayer()
14:05:08  <Celestar> no bitfields for savegames
14:05:12  <Celestar> KUDr: back in 10
14:05:15  <Celestar> *reading*
14:05:29  <KUDr> reload
14:06:55  <KUDr> Celestar: the main reason why we should switch to C++ (at least formally) is type safety
14:07:56  <KUDr> and then many other benefits of course like eliminating enumaration marcos (FOR_ALL_VEHISLES and so on)
14:09:15  <Athorium> how a town without any transport can reach 72.000 pob? :S
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14:13:35  <stillunknown>  KUDr: you want to store two pointers in every tile on the map?
14:14:13  <KUDr> no
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14:15:03  <KUDr> stillunknown: where do you see that?
14:15:18  <KUDr> regular tile can be 4 bytes only ionstead of 8
14:16:24  <stillunknown> no misread, but now i wonder how you will know which tile is small, medium or big and what tile is what?
14:16:47  <KUDr> lowest 2 bits are size_category
14:17:00  <KUDr> TileSizeCategory
14:17:20  <KUDr> when used as pointer, you clear those 2 bits
14:17:46  <stillunknown> regular tile will still be 8 bytes if it contains a pointer
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14:17:56  <KUDr> when used as SimpleTile it must have those 2 bits shared - also defined as size_category;
14:18:09  <KUDr> can be 4
14:18:18  <KUDr> pointer has 4 bits
14:18:30  <KUDr> (at least on 32 bit systems)
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14:18:51  <glx> KUDr: you mean bytes
14:18:52  <KUDr> on 64 bit systems you don't care about few megs RAM
14:18:56  <KUDr> yes
14:18:58  <KUDr> sorry
14:19:07  <KUDr> didn't sleep enough ;)
14:19:34  <stillunknown> i care :-)
14:19:52  <KUDr> but is is not mandatory to keep tile size on 4 bytes
14:19:57  <KUDr> just an option
14:20:18  <KUDr> stillunknown: on 64 bit OS you care about few megs?
14:21:12  <stillunknown> i always keep an eye on memory usage, but if the improvement is worth it, i don't mind
14:21:21  <KUDr> then switch to 32
14:21:28  <KUDr> and you save a lot
14:21:48  <KUDr> 64 bit OS consumes so much and no improvement at all
14:22:13  <KUDr> so what you just told became nonsense
14:22:32  <stillunknown> i'll consider is if/when i reinstall my os
14:22:51  <KUDr> you can have 2 OS installed
14:22:56  <KUDr> or more
14:23:15  <KUDr> what kind you use (win or linux)
14:23:20  <stillunknown> linux
14:23:25  <KUDr> ahh
14:23:35  <KUDr> so then it is not so much consuming
14:23:46  <stillunknown> setting up a new os is not fun
14:24:02  <stillunknown> it took me a long time to get it were i want
14:24:25  <stillunknown> but i guess you are right
14:24:35  <stillunknown> i shouldn't complain about memory
14:24:42  <stillunknown> knowing pointers are twice the size
14:25:21  <KUDr> yes, having longer pointers is your choice, not dev's
14:26:07  <stillunknown> but still the size of the struct should become 8 bytes on a 64 bit system
14:26:24  <stillunknown> otherwise strange things happen :-)
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14:28:22  <KUDr> yes
14:28:44  <stillunknown> KUDr: "your" idea, can that be put into the game gradually
14:28:45  <KUDr> or you can use indices (30 bits) instead of pointers
14:28:57  <KUDr> yes
14:29:12  <KUDr> and can be extended later
14:29:40  <KUDr> but would be much easier to do it in C++
14:29:59  <KUDr> this is only the reason why i didn't do it already
14:30:09  <KUDr> that here C++ is unwanted
14:30:20  <stillunknown> does openttd even compile "as c++"?
14:30:30  <KUDr> no
14:30:38  <KUDr> needs many typecasts
14:30:43  <KUDr> the code is dirty
14:30:54  <KUDr> because C doesn't care
14:30:59  <Darkvater> it has been stained. We need vanish ultra!\
14:31:03  <KUDr> and C++ does
14:31:27  <stillunknown> can't the map be written in c++ and provide wrapper functions in headers for the c part?
14:31:31  <Celestar> KUDr: the N_corner_z are the offsets?
14:31:46  <KUDr> Darkvater: good ide, i will tell my wife to clean it
14:31:58  <Celestar> KUDr: to base_z ?
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14:32:11  <Darkvater> KUDr: ^^
14:32:14  <KUDr> Celestar: i dunno, it can be offset in corner
14:32:23  <KUDr> or whatever you like
14:32:24  <Darkvater> sorry I'm a bit 'stoned'-like
14:32:32  <Celestar> KUDr: ok but make that 2 bits :P
14:32:36  <Darkvater> had a read in the tt-forums off-topic section really screws with you
14:32:39  <KUDr> i don't care about how height is stored
14:32:49  <Celestar> KUDr: neither do I (at the moment)
14:33:12  <stillunknown> KUDr: can't the map be written in c++ and provide wrapper functions in headers for the c part?
14:33:15  <KUDr> Celestar: or it can be lookup table based (16 types)
14:33:19  <Celestar> int GetTileIndexZCoord(TileIndex tile)
14:33:19  <Celestar> { return GB(tile, 28, 4);
14:33:20  <Celestar> }
14:33:26  <Celestar> how is this supposed to work?
14:33:52  <KUDr> stillunknown: it can, but you lost inlining in many cases (from C to C++)
14:34:05  <KUDr> so it can be performance hit
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14:34:26  <KUDr> and you can't use overloaded [] operator
14:35:09  <KUDr> <Celestar> int GetTileIndexZCoord(TileIndex tile) << yes, for composite indices (xyz)
14:35:21  <KUDr> to tell also z
14:35:57  <KUDr> lower 28 bits is just index into map array
14:36:08  <Celestar> KUDr: ok suppose I'm on a tile. it has two crossing bridges on it. I'm on the upper of those two and try to find the Tile which stores the next bit of the bridge. How do I find it?
14:36:12  <KUDr> and highest 4 bits are requested Z
14:36:19  <Celestar> KUDr: I see
14:36:39  <KUDr> but it can be stored separatelly
14:36:39  <Celestar> but I'd make that 5 bits :P
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14:36:43  <Celestar> don't care
14:36:47  <KUDr> ok, 5
14:36:51  <KUDr> we can have 8
14:36:59  <KUDr> 24 bits will be ok for index
14:37:14  <Celestar> well, ... details details
14:37:33  <KUDr> start your imagination
14:37:46  <KUDr> what more details you need to know
14:38:07  <KUDr> memory allocation management?
14:38:10  <KUDr> or what?
14:38:21  <Celestar> KUDr: 1) the question above
14:38:47  <Celestar> and I'm not sure what this _asnumber & ~0x3 stuff is ..
14:38:52  <Celestar> but ok, go on :)
14:39:03  <KUDr> aha
14:39:08  <KUDr> 'which stores the next bit of the bridge'?
14:39:22  <KUDr> like connected rail piece?
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14:40:00  <KUDr> you have your tile index+z stored in "TileIndex tile;"
14:40:21  <KUDr> and you do += TileOffsetByDir()
14:40:37  <KUDr> and then call Tile* GetTile(TileIndex tile)
14:40:45  <Celestar> so it should be easy and fast, right?
14:40:47  <KUDr> to get the tile itself
14:40:55  <KUDr> should be
14:41:00  <KUDr> slower than now
14:41:03  <Celestar> that's all I care about :P
14:41:04  <KUDr> of course
14:41:17  <Celestar> yeah, the question is.. how much slower :)
14:41:48  <KUDr> but should be same speed as my supertile based map in the past (C++ experiment from one year ago)
14:41:55  <KUDr> and it was fast enough
14:42:02  <stillunknown> one thing i do not get, the ground map contains pointers to special tiles if needed
14:42:13  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7797 /trunk/src/spritecache.c: -Codechange: Replace static _sprite_ptr and associated arrays with dynamic array to allow variable number of sprites. This does not change the sprite limit.
14:42:15  <stillunknown> but where do the pointers to Z>0 go?
14:42:49  <KUDr> Celestar: it depends, we can make t even faster than now if inside functions we will use Tile* instead of TileIndex
14:43:04  <Celestar> yeah
14:43:07  <KUDr> and for accessors arguments too
14:43:17  <Celestar> KUDr: how difficult would it be to convert the current map to this is the question
14:43:20  <KUDr> one more line usually
14:43:26  <KUDr> and faster access
14:44:04  <KUDr> having it already in C++ it is like one month
14:44:21  <KUDr> with C like 3 moths
14:44:26  <Celestar> the question is .. how many platforms will we break?
14:44:27  <KUDr> or more for me
14:44:30  <Celestar> hehe
14:44:35  <Celestar> we could join forces
14:44:42  <KUDr> platforms?
14:44:50  <KUDr> C++ is fully portable
14:44:54  <Celestar> do we have any idea where YAPFs compiles and where it doesn't ?
14:45:18  <KUDr> if you find any system that doesnt support C++ then i wouldn't call it 'platforms'
14:45:24  <Celestar> lol
14:45:49  <Celestar> KUDr: but that would postpone scripting and newsignalling, right?
14:45:51  <Celestar> :P
14:45:54  <Darkvater> we don't break any supported platforms with C++. Perhaps PSP, XBOX or something, but that was always some user-hobby that showed up once
14:45:56  <KUDr> squirrel is also written in C++
14:46:08  <Celestar> .oO(I don't care about scripting, I just care about signalling)
14:46:36  <stillunknown> if a complete new map system is mase
14:46:38  <stillunknown> *made
14:46:49  <KUDr> Celestar: you should not orient to one thing only and stay blind to others
14:46:53  <stillunknown> it would be unwise to start with signalling
14:47:53  <Celestar> stillunknown: that is true
14:48:01  <KUDr> how?
14:48:15  <stillunknown> how what?
14:48:18  <KUDr> with new map we will not need signalling?
14:48:27  <Celestar> KUDr: if Darkvater and peter1138 are ok with that, I'd say start a branch asap, and I'll join as soon as I understand what is going ok :)
14:48:44  <KUDr> hehe
14:48:47  <Celestar> KUDr: no he meant it's no good to do signalling now and map later, rather the other way round.
14:48:49  <stillunknown> KUDr: you don't even have map API stability yet
14:48:54  <Celestar> Darkvater: peter1138: what's your opinion?
14:49:10  <KUDr> aha
14:49:13  <KUDr> ok then
14:49:25  <Darkvater> so what are we wanting to do now?
14:49:28  <Darkvater> Another map-rewrite?
14:49:29  <KUDr> ask also others
14:49:43  <KUDr> C++ first
14:49:48  <KUDr> then map
14:49:59  <KUDr> and then bridges maybe
14:50:39  <stillunknown> how much performance gain does inlining give approx?
14:50:46  <Celestar> depends, can't tell
14:50:59  <Celestar> Darkvater: we can give it another try, yes :)
14:51:01  <Celestar> Darkvater: or not?
14:51:43  <Celestar> but with custombridgeheads and enhancedtunnels we run in soo many limitations ... it's getting ugly
14:51:53  <Celestar> and then we start hacks and hacks and hacks
14:52:01  <stillunknown> it's already ugly
14:52:02  <Celestar> and it's getting more ugly
14:52:14  <Darkvater> enhancetunnels aren't really my concern, I don't see them as a must-have
14:52:32  <Celestar> but undergroundstations would be cool, no? :>
14:52:36  * Darkvater is just afraid another maprewrite will halt development again
14:53:00  <Darkvater> what I'd love is see newhouses/newindustries in and then start converting
14:54:48  <Celestar> Darkvater: I won't work on newhouses/newindustries anyway cuz I dunno shit about it. the only question is ... go for custombridgeheads (without signals) or halt it till after the maprewrite?
14:54:59  <Celestar> KUDr won't do newgrf stuff either I think.
14:55:10  <Darkvater> what's the cbh status without signals?
14:55:16  <Celestar> Darkvater: working with yapf
14:55:22  <Celestar> mostly working with NTP
14:55:25  <Celestar> not working with NPF
14:55:28  <Darkvater> and NTP/OPF?
14:55:43  <Celestar> OPF doesn'T exist for trains anymore
14:56:14  <Celestar> Darkvater: it needs testing tho
14:56:17  <Darkvater> but for signal propagation
14:56:36  <glx> Celestar: newhouses adds a byte to current map array
14:56:53  <Celestar> signals states are propagated (will test), just signals on bridgeheads can'T really work
14:57:03  <Celestar> glx: yes, but newmap doesn't care a lot about it.
14:57:11  <Darkvater> just disable building those for the time being imho
14:57:15  <Celestar> glx: we'll just bear that in mind
14:57:17  <Celestar> Darkvater: I will
14:57:18  <Darkvater> it's not *that* vital
14:57:41  <Celestar> Darkvater: it's just commenting out a line
14:57:55  * peter1138 is updating sprite limit patch
14:58:06  <peter1138> then i shall deal with newcargos, i think
14:58:10  * Darkvater is cleansing flyspray
14:58:36  <Celestar> Darkvater: will you do a couple of tests with cbh ?
14:58:51  <Darkvater> yeah, will test it this evening :)
14:58:58  <Celestar> ok
14:59:11  <stillunknown> btw, what happened during/after the last map rewrite?
14:59:12  <Darkvater> although... a C++ conversion can be done withouth interfering with the branches too much
14:59:14  <Celestar> Darkvater: I will interdict the construction of signals
14:59:29  <Celestar> Darkvater: I'd say the map stuff would be branch?
14:59:32  <Darkvater> all internal data stays the same, theere'll only be needed some cast-changes
15:01:11  <Darkvater> map should definitely be a branch as it can change a lot
15:01:18  <CIA-1> celestar * r7798 /branches/custombridgeheads/src/rail_cmd.c: [cbh] - Codechange: Disable the construction of signals on bridge heads, because they prove to be ... problematic. Actually this has re-started the discussion of a map rewrite, so stay tuned
15:01:35  <Darkvater> commit message as announcement :O
15:01:43  <Celestar> Darkvater: now cbh is ready for testing (yapf and ntp)
15:01:51  * Celestar waits for Darkvater to slap him
15:01:56  * Darkvater slaps Celestar
15:02:20  <Celestar> thank you
15:02:32  <Brianetta> cbh (:
15:02:35  <Brianetta> newsignals (:
15:02:37  <Celestar> Darkvater: do we want cbh for roads? :)
15:02:54  <Brianetta> funky bridges that can be built over houses and stuff (:
15:02:58  <peter1138> i did it for roads
15:03:04  <peter1138> it's useful
15:03:07  <Maedhros> Celestar: i want it, definitely ;)
15:03:10  <Celestar> peter1138: it's possible, but I'll cost a day or two :P
15:03:12  <Brianetta> for roads (:
15:03:23  <peter1138> bah, it was easier back in the day of real bridges :P
15:03:26  <Brianetta> At least there's no signals
15:03:31  <Celestar> peter1138: I have work :P
15:03:42  <Brianetta> peter1138: What's unreal about these?
15:03:46  <Celestar> peter1138: if I hadn't, it'd be somewhat working tonight
15:04:13  <Darkvater> Celestar: of course we want it for roads
15:04:42  <Celestar> KUDr: ok what about this: 1) we finish cbh (rail + roads, yapf + ntp/opf), 2) we merge this, 3) we start the map rewrite as you suggested.
15:05:02  <Darkvater> KUDr said C++ first :)
15:05:18  <Celestar> er yeah
15:05:22  <Celestar> thats 2.5)
15:05:34  <Celestar> (not to self: always start numbering in increments of 10)
15:06:04  *** Tobin [] has quit [Quit: Tobin]
15:06:16  <stillunknown> what exactly needs to be cast (in general) before it will compile as c++?
15:06:21  <peter1138> -rw-r--r-- 1 peter peter 626925 2007-01-03 15:03 sprlimit7.diff
15:06:22  <peter1138> o_O
15:06:26  <Celestar> nice peter1138 :)
15:06:51  <peter1138> Brianetta: bridges weren't portals when i did cbh
15:06:59  <Darkvater> performance impact numbers? ;)
15:07:09  <peter1138> none!
15:07:10  <peter1138> it's all lies!
15:07:54  <Celestar> lol
15:08:00  <pv2b> heh. aircraft behave rather ... strangely... when landing at an airport at an altitude of 550 meters
15:08:04  <pv2b> :-)
15:08:26  <Smoovious> when it comes to NewGRF sets... are there any that anyone would recommend to try out first? (in the MiniIN?)
15:08:43  <peter1138> ukrs :D
15:08:44  <Brianetta> ukrs
15:08:55  <Smoovious> ok... but I'm not in the UK :D
15:08:59  <peter1138> so?
15:09:15  * Smoovious grins.
15:09:29  <Brianetta> Smoovious:
15:09:29  <Smoovious> I take it that would be more complete than others?
15:09:31  <Darkvater> and let's remove NPF, no?
15:09:33  <Brianetta> Just grab that set
15:09:48  <Celestar> Darkvater: don't care
15:09:49  <Brianetta> Does NPF really have no redeeming features?
15:09:50  <Darkvater> it's only use is for ships (where yapf defaults to off) and it is most horrible there
15:09:53  <Celestar> pv2b: yes they do
15:10:42  <Darkvater> Brianetta: it had PBS ;p
15:10:57  <Darkvater> but no it has none. It is in every way inferior to yapf
15:11:01  <Brianetta> Darkvater: Oh, right, well cleary it can stay because of that (:
15:11:02  <peter1138> dbg: [sprite] Increasing sprite cache to 20480 items (245760 bytes)
15:11:03  <Darkvater> blathijs: please correct me if I'm wrong
15:11:03  <peter1138> :D
15:11:09  <Darkvater> :D
15:11:16  <stillunknown> who made the first version of ottd?
15:11:23  <Darkvater> ludde
15:11:53  <Celestar> is there ANY way to not have make spit out whole paths?!
15:11:57  <stillunknown> the name seems vaguely familiar
15:11:57  <Darkvater> look in the about box
15:12:09  <Smoovious> stillunknown... ludde made µTorrent
15:12:11  <peter1138> stillunknown: uTorrent?
15:12:14  <Darkvater> stillunknown: utorrent
15:12:18  <peter1138> lol
15:12:28  <Darkvater> stillunknown: and the lucasarts vm thing
15:12:30  <Brianetta> Never heard of it
15:12:31  <Darkvater> forgot the name :(
15:12:42  <peter1138> scumm?
15:12:49  <Darkvater> Brianetta: OMG. it's the best, fastest, less resource-hungry torrent program ever
15:12:57  <Darkvater> which btw works flawlessly with wine
15:12:58  <Celestar> I *hate* static
15:13:00  <Darkvater> peter1138: yeah scum
15:13:03  <Darkvater> +m
15:13:11  <peter1138> heh
15:13:14  <Smoovious> and, it has Tetris!
15:13:17  <peter1138> i don't use torrent
15:13:18  <Brianetta> Darkvater: I fire up my official Linux bittorrent client about once a year to download a new ISO.
15:13:24  <peter1138> i only know of utorrent from here ;p
15:13:36  <Darkvater> Brianetta: utorrent is better
15:13:49  <peter1138> besides, isn't utorrent official now?
15:13:54  <Darkvater> in fact I've read the the original author of bittorrent contacted utorrent to work together
15:13:57  <peter1138> it's still windows only, heh
15:14:08  <Celestar> Rubidium: ping
15:14:28  <Rubidium> Celestar: pong
15:14:31  <Smoovious> yeah, Bram Cohen and BitTorrent, Inc bought µTorrent several weeks ago... something most of the rest of us on the support team aren't happy about
15:14:42  <blathijs> Darkvater: NPF has more elegant code :-)
15:14:50  <Darkvater> Smoovious: support-team of what?
15:14:54  <Celestar> Rubidium: when I get an error, make spits out full filenames, is there any way to have it spit out relative file names?
15:14:54  <Darkvater> blathijs: it leaks!
15:14:56  <Smoovious> µTorrent
15:14:57  <blathijs> Darkvater: At according to KUDr, it has a few details extra over YAPF I think
15:15:17  <Rubidium> Celestar: compile time or run time?
15:15:27  <Darkvater> Smoovious: ah, I see; cohen pays badly?
15:16:07  <Celestar> Rubidium: when compiling
15:16:22  * peter1138 wonders how many sprites he can get loaded..
15:16:23  <Smoovious> dunno what ludde and DirectriX got paid... non-disclosure... the rest of us aren't included... our beef with Cohen tho, is we don't trust him
15:16:24  <Darkvater> I don't get path-information
15:16:44  <Celestar> /nfs/home/fischer/openttd/branches/custombridgeheads/src/road_cmd.c:273: error: <= this is too long
15:16:54  <Smoovious> and I mean a very active distrust... not just some 'we don't know him so we don't trust him' kind of thing
15:16:56  <peter1138> hmm, 19907 sprites, with 5 grfs
15:17:00  <Darkvater> Smoovious: ;o gimme the dirty stuff!
15:17:04  <Smoovious> so, we'll see what he does with it
15:17:30  <Brianetta> OpenTTD needs animated points (:
15:17:36  <Smoovious> well, basically, Bram has been among the loudest detractors against the advancements µT and Az were making together
15:17:52  <Darkvater> detractors?
15:18:10  * Darkvater looks up word
15:18:10  <stillunknown> utorrent is supposedly decent/good, but azureus is a joke
15:18:14  <Smoovious> yeah... like protocol encruption for one
15:18:48  <Darkvater> azureus is so much crap. I can't even run it normally on my pc. It's java suckyness brings my whole pc to a crawl
15:18:54  <Smoovious> Azureus is ok... it is just aimed at a different niche... it plays well with others and the trackers, so we consider it a good client... if you have the resources to run it
15:19:15  <Darkvater> ah critict
15:19:16  <Darkvater> -t
15:19:23  <Sacro> Smoovious: how do i stop utorrent from complaining about nvappfilter.dll
15:19:46  <Smoovious> why would it complain about it to begin with?
15:19:50  <peter1138> dbg: [sprite] Currently 22144 sprites are loaded
15:19:53  <peter1138> hmmz
15:20:00  <Celestar> peter1138: ?
15:20:00  <Sacro> Smoovious: it doesnt like my onboard lan ports
15:20:18  <peter1138> Celestar: > 16384 :D
15:20:24  <Darkvater> hehe
15:20:25  <Celestar> peter1138: oh . right .
15:20:25  <Smoovious> ahh... well, then I guess I'd just have to say... fix nvappfilter.dll
15:20:27  <peter1138> Darkvater: hee, i have 19000 sprite groups...
15:20:32  <Celestar> peter1138: ?
15:20:42  <peter1138> hmm?
15:20:43  <Darkvater> good thing you increase the group-size
15:20:45  <peter1138> yeah
15:20:47  <Darkvater> eh block-size
15:20:53  * Maedhros plays with diagonal crossings...
15:20:57  <Smoovious> seriously tho, that's the first time anyone has even mentioned that dll
15:21:07  <Celestar> Error: Tried to load non-existing sprite #16383.
15:21:09  <Darkvater> did you try usset yet? I think that's pretty bug
15:21:12  <Celestar> I think I made something wrong :P
15:21:15  <Maedhros> now i just have to get activating both halves at the same time working :-/
15:21:23  <Sacro> Smoovious: hmm, its an Asus M2N-SLi board
15:21:25  <Darkvater> good luck
15:21:51  <Darkvater> hmm
15:22:17  <Rubidium> Celestar: hmm, removing the absolute paths is not going to work; then you'll get ../../src/... or ../../../src/... (last for OSX universal binaries)
15:22:23  <Darkvater> peter1138: about the tunnel-signal-bug that KUDr fixed for branches/bridge then I backported to 0.5 then you reverted; has that been fixed?
15:22:26  <Smoovious> Sacro... well, if µT is complaining about it, then there is something wrong with it... if it was communicating in a standard way like everything else, there wouldn't be a problem... µT doesn't care about specific hardware
15:22:40  <Celestar> Darkvater: I think it was fixed in cbh, wasn't it?
15:22:44  <peter1138> Darkvater: it's fixed in the next couple of commits
15:22:51  <Sacro> Smoovious: its strange, cos i dont even use LAN, or have it enabled in windows... i use wifi
15:22:52  <Darkvater> ok
15:22:54  <peter1138> Darkvater: although the incompatible railtype stuff isn't in yet
15:22:55  <Biff> Maedhros: only that patch?
15:22:58  <Biff> Maedhros: no grf?
15:23:05  <Smoovious> wifi is still considered LAN
15:23:05  <peter1138> because to do that requires updating signals when converting
15:23:26  <Darkvater> Celestar: that doesn't help with 0.5 :)
15:23:26  <Maedhros> Biff: :)
15:23:34  <Biff> okey
15:23:38  <Biff> is that oldgrf?
15:23:39  <Biff> :P
15:23:44  <Smoovious> Sacro... what is the specific error message you get?
15:23:45  <Rubidium> Celestar: the 'main' problem is that I don't want to break the error stream; all stderr from gcc should go to stderr, not to stdout
15:23:46  <Darkvater> but I wasn't sure anymore cause there was a shitload of commits around there and I wasn't around
15:23:55  <Celestar> Rubidium: true
15:24:51  <Celestar> ok Darkvater customroadbridgeheads tomorrow
15:25:02  <Celestar> Darkvater: please test customraildbridgeheads today thne :)
15:25:05  * Osai may we have shift + enter for teamchat?
15:25:16  <Rubidium> maybe we could make it 'make SHOW_REL_PATHS:=1' which merges stderr to stdout and then throws it through sed
15:25:16  <Darkvater> Osai: it's already is
15:25:35  <Darkvater> or is it ctrl+enter, can't remember
15:25:42  <Osai> its ctrl + enter
15:25:51  <Sacro> Smoovious: "µTorrent is not compatible with 'NVIDIA Firewall' (nvappfilter.dll) that appears to be installed on your computer. That program contains severe bigs, and might case µTorrent to crash or behave strangely, including but not limited to using up all your RAM and freezing. Please uninstall that program if you experience any problems"
15:25:51  <Darkvater> then it stays ctrl+enter
15:26:07  <Osai> ctrl + enter toggles the fullscreenmode on mac os x :/
15:26:14  <Osai> so you can't use it
15:26:35  <Darkvater> why did bjarni use a differnet shortcut there?
15:26:37  <Smoovious> ahh, ok... don't use NVIDIA Firewall then... it isn't a µT issue...
15:27:02  <Sacro> Smoovious: its part of my motherboard drivers afaik
15:27:04  <Smoovious> it should be on the incompatable software list
15:27:05  <Darkvater> Osai: you can change a patch setting to prefer-team chat. Then enter will be team if you have team mates and shift+enter all (as it was)
15:27:49  <Celestar> Osai: and poke bjarni to get it fixed :)
15:27:58  <Osai> works
15:28:11  <Osai> I'll poke him ;)
15:28:18  <Darkvater> Osai: does alt+enter interfere with anything in OSX causing it to be not used?
15:28:41  <Smoovious> Sacro... are you actually experiencing any problems with it, not counting the warning message?
15:29:05  <Sacro> Smoovious: no issues as yet, but then im using a netgear ma101 to connect via wireless
15:29:24  <Osai> alt + enter should work too
15:29:29  <Smoovious> that doesn't matter... the issue is the NVIDIA Firewall it found... nothing else
15:30:06  <Smoovious> so if you aren't having any problems, then ignore the warning message... you'll continue to get it as long as µT detects that firewall on your computer
15:30:07  <Darkvater> Osai: good, then I'll change the code at home
15:30:11  <Darkvater> and hope it compiels ;p
15:30:14  <Celestar> :P
15:30:19  <Celestar> ok guys I'm off
15:30:25  <Osai> but shift+enter has the best usability as you have shift right under enter
15:30:35  <Celestar> KUDr: I hope you're content with the workflow above?
15:30:48  <Smoovious> (yeah, but the Alt/Ctrl keys are on the edge without other keys in the way :D )
15:31:07  <Darkvater> Osai: it was modelled on different games mainly wc3 and ut ( I think) and ctrl+enter was team there
15:31:15  <Celestar> Darkvater: let me know any problem you find with cbh on rails (and KUDr as well if it is pathfinding related)
15:31:31  <Darkvater> kk, will do :)
15:31:33  <Osai> I always thought wc3 uses shift+enter ^^
15:31:46  <KUDr> Darkvater: you want to merge it?
15:31:58  <Darkvater> Osai: nop :)
15:31:58  <Celestar> KUDr: nah he wants to test it :)
15:32:06  <Darkvater> no, test it first
15:32:06  <KUDr> ahh
15:32:19  <KUDr> its not complete i think
15:32:21  <Sacro> mergy mergy!
15:32:29  <Celestar> neither do I
15:32:38  <Celestar> roads are missing and NTP has some lost trains.
15:32:40  <Celestar> ah
15:33:08  <Osai> okay, thx. maybe ctrl + enter will work with mac os x too, if Bjarni can fix it
15:33:38  <Darkvater> shit, I missed my bus
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15:34:02  <Celestar> BAH
15:34:04  <Celestar> BUG
15:34:18  <Celestar> running bin/openttd sets the working directiory to bin/. not .
15:34:28  <Darkvater> that's good
15:34:31  <Celestar> nope
15:34:32  <Darkvater> all your data is in bin/
15:34:42  <Celestar> <= KUDr please test with NTP
15:34:50  <KUDr> ok
15:35:04  <blathijs> Celestar: Why does it change your working dir? Does openttd do that?
15:35:21  <Celestar> well, not the shell's but ottd's
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15:35:28  <blathijs> AFAICS that shouldn't happen
15:35:45  <Smoovious> Brianett... all 15 of those NewGRF's work well together?
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15:37:07  <Belugas> map rewrite... looks quite interesting.
15:37:32  <peter1138> quick, merge newhouses!
15:37:56  <Rubidium> Belugas: newindustries must be finished before the maprewrite (Darkvater's orders :))
15:38:01  <Celestar> peter1138: ?
15:38:07  <Rubidium> or maybe 'wishes'
15:38:08  <Celestar> ok guys cu
15:38:19  <peter1138> bye
15:38:33  <Darkvater> KUDr: yapf doesn't do any checks for a path that would make a train cross itself, does it?
15:39:02  <peter1138> damn
15:39:11  <peter1138> i forget to investigate that yapf problem
15:39:40  *** Mucht_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:39:55  <Belugas> newindustries...
15:39:58  <KUDr> Darkvater: doesn't
15:39:59  <Belugas> pffff...
15:40:14  <Darkvater> chop, chop, hop to it!
15:40:18  <Belugas> yeah, i might getback on track, i guess!
15:40:33  <Belugas> i think i'v been a bit lazy lately :D
15:40:50  * peter1138 ponders accidentally commiting this "small" patch
15:40:57  <Belugas> as for newhouses... i don't think it is ready yet
15:40:58  <Darkvater> you better get working Belugas or I might 'accidentally' remove you from my friends list
15:41:07  <Belugas> :P
15:41:17  <Belugas> i tough i was already out of it!
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15:41:24  <GoneWacko> But then you wouldn't have any friends left Darkvater
15:41:30  <Darkvater> peter1138: which yapf problem? 'small' hehe
15:41:33  <Darkvater> Belugas: desync!
15:41:35  <Belugas> Darkvater: You did not wished me happy new year!
15:41:50  <Darkvater> has canada passed over already?
15:41:52  <Darkvater> sweet
15:41:52  <peter1138> Darkvater: sometimes it picks the wrong path
15:42:00  <Darkvater> Happy New Year Belugas \o/
15:42:02  <peter1138> only noticed it after bridge merge, however
15:42:10  <KUDr> peter1138: need case
15:42:14  <peter1138> i know
15:42:27  <peter1138> i damned 5 minutes ago ;)
15:43:08  * peter1138 ponders keeping statistics about grfs
15:43:20  <peter1138> pointless though
15:43:30  <peter1138> especially as there's no limits
15:43:43  * Belugas wonders if peter1138 was talking about the newcargo "small" patch!
15:43:48  <peter1138> no
15:43:51  <peter1138> much smaller than that
15:43:51  <Belugas> :(
15:43:53  <Darkvater> Belugas: even smaller
15:43:54  <Darkvater> hehe
15:44:26  <peter1138> Darkvater: with all those grfs loaded, ottd is still under 10MB
15:44:46  <Darkvater> sure beats my reading in of MS Mincho font :)
15:44:55  <peter1138> hehe
15:45:01  <peter1138> Belugas: this one is only 600+KB
15:45:05  <Darkvater> 35MB per font-face
15:45:19  <peter1138> it's way smaller than rubidium's merge...
15:45:34  <Belugas> well... accidently wold not apply to such a "small" patche then..
15:46:01  <Belugas> Happy new Year to you too, Darkvater
15:46:16  <Darkvater> I see canada is far away; what a lag :+
15:46:42  <Darkvater> but, I'm off for home
15:46:45  <Darkvater> :)
15:47:13  <qball> :D
15:47:49  <peter1138> ah, he's gone
15:47:55  <peter1138> let's do this commit ;)
15:48:01  <Rubidium> peter1138: my merge wasn't that large :)
15:48:29  <peter1138> uh huh
15:48:37  <peter1138> 14 MB or so?
15:48:53  <Rubidium> that was the diff, because diff doesn't understand files moving
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15:54:11  <Brianetta> Smoovious: All 15 work well together, yes.
15:54:36  <Brianetta> Two train sets, one designed as an add-on to the other.  One road vehivle set, one ship set, one plane set and a load of stations.
15:54:49  <Brianetta> Oh, and a bridge.
15:55:31  <Smoovious> ok cool... good set to start with then, thanky, helps a lot
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15:57:25  <Smoovious> um... are there limitations to which climate they're usable in? (not counting toyland)
16:00:35  <peter1138> temperate and arctic i think
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16:06:53  <Maedhros> peter1138: do you still have that varaction 2 procedure patch you were working on anywhere?
16:07:46  * caladan back :D
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16:13:47  <peter1138> yes
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16:20:10  <Digitalfox> So how's the debate about the map rewrite?
16:23:48  <peter1138> we got bored and did something else
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16:32:37  <Smoovious> hmm... #comments look like they're being stripped out of openttd.cfg ...
16:33:55  <hylje> obviously
16:34:16  <Smoovious> they shouldn't be... according to the wiki...
16:36:38  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7799 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r7759): gracefully handle cases where the directory libz.a is in is given via --with-libz.
16:49:15  <peter1138> hmm
16:49:17  <peter1138> quiet :P
16:51:00  <Digitalfox> peter-> "We got bored and did something else" so it stays has it was..??
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16:52:11  <Digitalfox> Or just gave up on signals on bridges..
16:53:10  <peter1138> no, just a throwaway remark because no-one said anything
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16:55:57  <Athorium> hey, is possible to remove the fucking bribe failure?
16:56:01  <peter1138> no
16:56:06  <Athorium> no?
16:56:27  <Smoovious> no
16:56:33  <peter1138> that was a yes/no question, the answer is no
16:56:39  <Athorium> sure?? :(
16:56:51  <Smoovious> boolean's don't leave a lot of wiggle room in answers
16:57:07  <qball> :D
16:57:20  <peter1138> yes, no, file not found
16:57:28  <Athorium> -_-
16:57:37  <qball> yes, no, maybe
16:57:51  <Athorium> fucking regional investigator... I can't send a assasin and kill them? :D
16:57:52  <Smoovious> that wouldn't be a boolean then
16:58:01  <SpComb> sure is
16:58:05  <qball> Smoovious: depends, tri state logic
16:58:09  <SpComb> file not found is very important
16:58:13  <SpComb> you can't just disregard it
16:58:23  <Smoovious> that'd be a troolean then
16:58:28  <qball> owh soryr
16:58:42  <qball> and with tristate its more like: yes, no, what my neighbour sais
16:58:51  <peter1138> troolean, heh
16:59:12  <Smoovious> or "yes, no, I don't give a f*ck"
16:59:43  <Smoovious> or maybe "yes, no, google is your friend"
16:59:48  <Smoovious> same diff tho
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17:20:37  <SpComb> Logs:
17:20:37  <Digitalfox> !logs
17:27:06  <ArmEagle> tis there any way to see whether a vertain placement of your station will be able to 'catch' resources from a certain industry?
17:27:13  <ArmEagle> *-t
17:27:38  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:27:52  <ArmEagle> ..since it often isn't clear what the base tile is.
17:30:57  <ArmEagle> (hmm k, factories seem to accept on all, but refineries and sawmills only accept on specific tiles. So how would one even know about producing-only industries..
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17:31:11  <Biff> ArmEagle: fixed some more
17:31:17  <ArmEagle> ah
17:31:18  <Biff> dirty hack actually :p
17:32:06  <Biff> ArmEagle:
17:32:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> ArmEagle: production is always on all tiles, accepting is not on all, but is shown when you place the station/in the station window
17:32:26  <ArmEagle> Eddi|zuHause2 ok thanks
17:32:37  <Biff> now fast forward never happens here when alt-tabbing
17:33:11  <Rubidium> + 		 * (still can go into fast-forward for 1/10 second)
17:33:20  <Rubidium> :)
17:33:21  <Biff> yes, i didnt update the comment
17:33:22  <ArmEagle> Biff yeah i had something like that in mind too. But didn't realyl find it neat enough :)
17:34:33  <Biff> think its the only way
17:34:47  <ArmEagle> and what about the very unusual moment that you keep the button pressed for a couple of years (ie counter overflow :)
17:35:00  <Biff> how will it be a counter overflow?
17:35:10  <ArmEagle> oh wait
17:35:14  <Biff> it just makes a copy of ticks
17:35:29  <ArmEagle> is that 'ticks' seconds since 1970-ish?
17:35:37  <Rubidium> after 2^32*30 milliseconds it'll overflow
17:35:38  <ArmEagle> or time of buttonpress?
17:35:57  <Biff> game ticks
17:35:59  <Biff> Rubidium: how?
17:36:00  <ArmEagle> Rubidium yeah i know.. very completely unlikely :)
17:36:12  <Biff> oh yes
17:36:32  <Biff> + 1000
17:36:35  <Rubidium> last_active_tick > 2^32 - 1000
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17:37:30  <ArmEagle> hmm doc says that the value wraps if the program runs for more than ~49 days
17:37:36  <ArmEagle> (value returned by function)
17:37:37  <Rubidium> a well, that will happen after about 100 years in non-fastforward mode :)
17:37:55  <ArmEagle> apparently not returning a uint32
17:38:00  <Rubidium> ArmEagle: what doc, where?
17:38:08  <ArmEagle>
17:38:13  <ArmEagle> hmm does return uint32..
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17:38:38  <Biff> Rubidium: but it will overflow anyways?
17:38:45  <Biff> atleast the tick counter
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17:38:50  <Biff> only 1000 ticks later
17:39:16  <Rubidium> hmm, I was mistaking it for another tick counter :)
17:39:28  <Rubidium> that makes 1000 ticks much more sensible :)
17:39:42  <ArmEagle> according to that page the tick counter will overflow when you run the game for ~49days. So IF you run a game that long AND you happen to alt-tab at that exact moment..
17:40:06  <Hadez> MiHaMiX: Is there any way of removing dead cases in WT2? I added them in Manage page in order to show them in Edit page, but they didn't show up :-(
17:40:52  <Hadez> I wanted to delete the old stupid .news and .subs strings...
17:41:07  <peter1138> ah ha
17:41:09  <peter1138> it's your fault!
17:41:14  <peter1138> :D
17:41:34  <peter1138> if they're supposed to go, i can delete them
17:41:55  <Hadez> But will they get deleted also in WT2's DB? ;-)
17:42:01  <peter1138> should do
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17:42:16  <Hadez> Alright, you can try.
17:42:21  <peter1138> if not then it's a WT2 bug
17:42:39  <Hadez> It seems that there are more bugs.
17:42:51  <stillunknown> WT2?
17:43:00  <Hadez> Translator system.
17:43:06  <Biff> ArmEagle: true
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17:43:36  <Rubidium> hmm, I'm not really happy with the diff
17:43:50  <Biff> i'm trying to fix some more
17:43:52  <Rubidium> tab now doesn't work the first second after reacquiring the focus
17:44:06  <Biff> yes, it needs a lower value
17:44:07  <Rubidium> and last_active_tick is really last_inactive_tick or so
17:44:10  <Hadez> peter1138: And thanks for fixing using of Unifont :-)
17:44:10  <Biff> yes
17:44:11  <Biff> true
17:44:21  <Rubidium> and sdl_v.c:426: warning: 'cur_ticks' may be used uninitialized in this function
17:44:31  <Biff> yep, i fixed that
17:44:33  <ArmEagle> yeah could make it shorter than a sec though
17:45:44  <Biff> updated
17:46:12  <Biff> 250 seems to work well
17:46:57  <Biff> trying some different values
17:47:41  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7800 /trunk/src/lang/czech.txt: -Fix (r7787): Remove Czech strings with .news or .subs case.
17:48:31  <Biff> 150 seems ok, 100 then it sometimes goes into fast_forward
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17:50:16  <Biff> better now?
17:51:30  <Biff> so, if its 150, that means there are a time slot of 150ms where it can overflow right?
17:51:49  <Rubidium> yeah, but don't worry about that :)
17:52:52  <Hadez> One thing to Makefile and stuff: I wonder why strgen isn't placed to bin/?
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17:53:11  <ArmEagle> well might want to make it 200 then. that's still quite short and a bit more on the safe side
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17:53:28  <Biff> yes, sounds reasonable
17:53:43  <SpComb> Logs:
17:53:43  <Bjarni> !logs
17:53:46  <Biff> in 0.2s you wont be able to fast_forward
17:54:01  <Naksu> Smoovious: did you say you were on utorrent support team?
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17:54:45  <Bjarni> people are so odd
17:54:47  <Biff> doesnt next_tick also overflow?
17:54:50  <Darkvater> Bjarni: !
17:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> <Hadez> One thing to Makefile and stuff: I wonder why strgen isn't placed to bin/? <- because strgen is not needed to run the game, it is just some intermediate program
17:54:58  <Bjarni> people started talking in a 2 year old thread o_O
17:55:11  <peter1138> and you continued!
17:55:28  <Hadez> It is usable for translators even after compiling.
17:55:36  <Darkvater> Bjarni: can you help truelight out with making the nightly compile farm compatible for 10.3? Cause right now it doesn't work
17:55:58  <Bjarni> <peter1138>	and you continued! <-- I supported DV, so we show a clear unified policy ;)
17:56:08  <Darkvater> I closede the thread
17:56:10  <glx> Hadez: not true for nightlies from compile farm
17:56:32  <Bjarni> Darkvater: I asked him to fix that for months and told him what to do... for some reason it have yet to be done :s
17:56:35  <Bjarni> I will try again
17:56:52  <peter1138> has
17:57:07  <Darkvater> Bjarni: yes, but do stay around this time :). It's hard to fix it if you can't test it
17:57:11  <Hadez> I thought there was strgen packaged with NB before...?
17:57:32  <Smoovious> Naksu... yes, I did... tho I think I said µTorrent... not utorrent... :P
17:58:24  <Bjarni> Darkvater: I don't have 10.3 installed anywhere anymore :s
17:58:41  <Hadez> Nah, I will look for some path setting. Just about the fact that strgen is a binary, not needed only for compiling...
17:58:52  <Darkvater> hmm, can't you install it or something in an osx vmware thingie?
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17:59:46  <Wolf01> ello
18:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> Hadez: it should be in objs/lang
18:00:11  <glx> Hadez: compile farm only compiles strgen for linux (as it only needs this one)
18:00:44  <Hadez> Alright.
18:00:57  <Naksu> Smoovious: i'm too lazy to find µ on the charmap
18:01:00  * Hadez will look for that path and won't bother about this anymore.
18:01:00  <Naksu> anyways
18:01:13  <Naksu> do you know if utorrent development will stall because of this?
18:01:14  *** Sacro [Ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:01:36  <Naksu> i understand bram cohen isn't too keen on people modifying His Divine Protocol
18:02:29  *** Hadez [] has quit [Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0/0000000000]]
18:06:48  <Smoovious> well... he's been pretty... evasive... on what will happen from this point on... we speculate he wanted µT because it was still closed source, as his own client is open source (and pretty crappy too)
18:06:52  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7801 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.c openttd.c): -Feature: add command line option to prevent saving of highscore and configuration on exit and a console command to manually initiate a configuration save (Aloysha).
18:07:10  <Wolf01> OMG LOOOL
18:07:12  <Smoovious> if there are going to be any more releases of it, and for the short-term, we expect there will, we just don't know what direction they're going to go...
18:07:43  <Smoovious> I've been telling people that build 483 is the last of the ludde builds, and they should just stick with that, as we have no idea what direction Bram is going to go in
18:08:50  <Smoovious> we're pretty unhappy about the whole situation... when the rest of us joined in to help with the project, we were told that when ludde got tired of programming it, he would open-source it... well, he got tired of it... and sold it instead...
18:09:11  <Smoovious> its not that we don't want him to make a buck with it... we're more upset over who he sold it to
18:09:12  <peter1138> well
18:09:19  <peter1138> no need to complain here in a channel not about it
18:09:31  * Smoovious shrugs.
18:09:53  <Smoovious> he did ask tho... but yeah... wanna know anymore, go to the official channel on p2p-net...
18:09:59  <Biff> yawn
18:10:07  <Biff> just use bittornado
18:10:13  <Biff> problem solved
18:10:28  <Smoovious> bittornado has its limitations... tho it is good in its own right
18:10:38  <Biff> pfft
18:10:49  <Biff> it has newer failed me
18:10:52  <Biff> never*
18:11:08  <Smoovious> not a question of failing you... I just don't want 400 bittornado instances running
18:11:10  <Darkvater>
18:11:13  <Darkvater> hehe
18:11:15  <Biff> you dont need it
18:11:24  <Biff> btlaunchmany.bittornado
18:11:30  <Biff> monitors a folder
18:11:42  <Wolf01> Rubidium, many thanks for the cygwin fix
18:11:50  <Biff> then use my excellent python program to put files into that folder (over tcp/ip)
18:11:52  <Smoovious> wouldn't be practical
18:12:04  <Biff> so you just click the links in the browser
18:12:14  <Biff> and they download without bothering you
18:12:20  <Rubidium> Wolf01: most of it is 'workarounds' :(
18:12:57  <Wolf01> but i can't understand it well, i should install cygwin with dos style line endings or with linux line endings? i always installed it with the linux option as it is default
18:13:17  <Biff> linux sounds like the smartest option
18:13:38  <Biff> you cant assume all *nix programs understand crlf
18:14:03  <Rubidium> Biff: bash ported to cygwin should understand crlf
18:14:10  <Biff> yes
18:14:24  <Rubidium> even worse, configure itself does work, it only fails when including other files
18:14:33  <Rubidium> so it works partially
18:14:36  <Biff> ok
18:14:46  <Biff> why do people use cygwin btw?
18:14:57  <Biff> for compiling openttd
18:15:03  <Rubidium> that is why configure with crlf and config.lib with only lf does work
18:16:18  <Rubidium> because it is easier to set up than MinGW + MSys (my experience) and harder to install than MSVC (and it has some nice 'issues' to complain about)
18:16:34  <Biff> ah
18:16:39  <stillunknown> Smoovious: rtorrent :-)
18:16:41  <Biff> ok
18:16:51  <stillunknown> oh, forgot you wanted a windows app
18:16:59  <Darkvater> I really hate cygwin
18:17:10  <Darkvater> then I'd rather run a linux OS in vmware player
18:17:39  <Biff> or just have an os that doesnt give you so many headaches :P
18:18:00  *** nix0r [] has joined #openttd
18:18:09  <Rubidium> and ofcourse cygwin's makedepend doesn't work :(
18:18:52  *** nix0r [] has quit []
18:20:12  <Biff> finally some snow
18:21:21  <stillunknown> who did those new makefiles?
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18:22:36  <Rubidium> stillunknown: initially TrueLight (now TrueBrain) and I finished & merged it
18:23:13  <stillunknown> please make --prefix an acceptable option as well
18:23:32  <stillunknown> and consider turning on ignore unknown options by default
18:23:36  <Biff> doesnt --prefix work?
18:23:46  <stillunknown> Wolf01: good one
18:23:47  <stillunknown> no
18:24:03  <stillunknown> i had to do a little sed'ing to get it to work
18:24:20  <Biff> oh
18:24:42  <stillunknown> and there are other problems
18:25:01  <Rubidium> ignoring unknown options by default is bad, it will just continue and people are going to complain about '--prefix' did not work, whern there isn't a --prefix
18:25:19  <Rubidium> now it will immediatelly tell them that
18:26:11  <stillunknown> everything seems to be non-standard
18:26:36  <stillunknown> --data-dir instead of --datadir
18:26:42  <stillunknown> and many more
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18:27:20  <Rubidium> stillunknown: where can I find that standard?
18:27:28  <FlashFF> zomg i was teh diskernected!
18:27:44  <stillunknown> i don't know, i just know that the gentoo defaults work out in 98% of the time
18:27:58  <stillunknown> so they be documented somewhere
18:28:05  <FlashFF> ewww gentoo
18:28:06  <stillunknown> i'll ask someplace and see if they know
18:28:34  <Rubidium> I just based the names on the names in the old makefile
18:28:59  <Rubidium> but if there really is a standard, I would like to comply to that as good as possible
18:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have a suggestion: place a dummy makefile in src that calls make in ..
18:29:18  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7802 /trunk/src/openttd.c: -Feature: make it possible to override the bind address and port of a dedicated server from the command line.
18:29:26  <FlashFF> quick Q: in a game, i just did an advertising campaign to beat a competitor, and it actually reduced the amount i was getting from the coal mine   wtf is with that
18:29:47  <Maedhros> Rubidium: the "standard" is probably whatever autoconf creates
18:30:26  <Darkvater> FlashFF: luck
18:30:40  <Biff> FlashFF: the amount it produced went down?
18:30:43  <Biff> or you got less?
18:31:11  <FlashFF> i got less
18:31:16  <FlashFF> and my competitor got more
18:31:37  <FlashFF> and he didnt get advertising or do anything particularly meaningful
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18:35:45  <FlashFF> sick
18:35:50  <FlashFF> now he gets nearly all of it lol
18:35:58  <qball> maybe he is preforming better?
18:36:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> usually, the person with higher rating should get more
18:36:38  <FlashFF> rating as in town rating or rating as in league table?
18:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i did not play with competition since TTO
18:36:41  <glx> except if someone bought exclusive rights
18:36:46  <FlashFF> and which town lol
18:36:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> rating as in station rating
18:37:05  <FlashFF> cos i have my station in the same town as the mine   his is in a diff town based on its name
18:37:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> click on the station, then on rating, and it should say something like: 'coal: 76% (good)' [names may differ]
18:38:33  <Wolf01> mmmm now cygwin works
18:38:41  <FlashFF> yeah  his is higher
18:38:43  <Wolf01> without changes
18:38:48  <FlashFF> and what is supposed to affect that?
18:38:55  <Wolf01> i only downloaded the missing libs
18:38:59  <stillunknown> Ribidium: can't find any docs so far, but as a start i would rename --prefix-dir to --prefix and --data-dir to --datadir (and all the other --*dir's)
18:41:24  <CIA-1> miham * r7803 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:41:24  <CIA-1> WebTranslator2 update to 2007-01-03 19:37:39
18:41:24  <CIA-1> bulgarian - 5 fixed by groupsky (5)
18:41:24  <CIA-1> croatian - 72 fixed by knovak (72)
18:41:24  <CIA-1> danish - 25 changed by MiR (25)
18:41:26  <CIA-1> italian - 1 changed by sidew (1)
18:41:26  <CIA-1> norwegian - 2 fixed by oletk (2)
18:41:51  <MiHaMiX> slovenian  - 241 fixed, 143 changed by Necrolyte (384)
18:42:15  <Darkvater> MiHaMiX: hehe, need some manual help? ;)
18:42:39  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: CIA-1 is covardly refused to annotate the whole commitlog :D
18:42:45  <Darkvater> hehe
18:43:12  <Darkvater> MiHaMiX: did you have time to look at flyspray yet? Various people cannot register and are getting php-errors/warnings
18:43:47  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: yeah, I know the problem
18:44:30  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: way too many people want to register with jabber notification, which is disabled, but on the register page that's somehow enabled, so I'll modify the source
18:44:50  <Darkvater> he great :s
18:45:11  <MiHaMiX> Total percentage:
18:45:12  <MiHaMiX> 92% - 7177 bad strings out of 96288 strings (2832 strings / language)
18:45:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> what exactly is jabber anyway?
18:45:26  <Darkvater> some gay instant messenger
18:45:33  <MiHaMiX>
18:45:36  <qball> google thingy uses it
18:45:37  <qball> gtalk
18:45:48  <MiHaMiX> qball: not exactly
18:45:55  <MiHaMiX> qball: GTalk != jabber
18:46:30  <qball> well I can connect to gtalk with my jabber client, and send from my jabber account to gtalk adresses
18:46:35  <qball> so atleast it works with it
18:47:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> bäh, way too many websites break when you change the font size
18:47:18  <Smoovious> MiHaMiX... I wasn't able to register with email notification
18:47:27  <stillunknown> openttd is a bitch to install
18:47:44  <MiHaMiX> qball: a whole lot other IM clients works with GTalk
18:47:56  <MiHaMiX> Smoovious: PM your email address pls
18:49:00  <qball> using the jabber protocoll.
18:49:47  <Biff> stillunknown: why?
18:50:48  <stillunknown> because i have made quite a few ebuilds in my life, and rarely do i encounter non-default names, i can't give a list, but i do know those
18:51:49  <peter1138> most programs use autoconf, of course
18:52:54  <stillunknown> quite a few i suppose
18:53:20  <Biff> ok
18:54:08  <stillunknown> the original ebuild was a mess as well (which i found somewhere), but i can't even get this to work anymore
18:54:19  <stillunknown> won't pick up my datadir, even though i am giving it
18:54:39  <MiHaMiX> anyone else having problems registering to ?
18:55:09  <peter1138> stillunknown: why is this suddenly a problem, anyway?
18:55:12  <peter1138> we've had configure for ages...
18:55:36  <stillunknown> the previous ebuild seemed to feed all sorts of data into make
18:55:49  <stillunknown> and i never used configure before the change
18:56:28  <Maedhros> i tried to make an ebuild for 0.5.0_rc2, but i got fed up of it spending ages compiling and the failing to install
18:56:34  <Maedhros> s/the/then/
18:56:39  <stillunknown> btw, how do i get custom bridgeheads?
18:57:09  <Darkvater> branches/cbh
18:57:11  <glx> svn co svn://
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18:57:30  <stillunknown> i mean, how do i built them
18:57:38  <glx> configure && make
18:57:40  <stillunknown> i wanted to test, but i just get normal bridges
18:57:53  <Maedhros> just build railway track over the top of the bridgehead
18:58:22  <peter1138> hee
18:58:24  <Darkvater> the name is much more exciting than the feature itself
18:58:29  <peter1138> i changed cargo slot 0 to be coal
18:58:54  <peter1138> my bus stations take coal :/
18:58:59  <Darkvater> that's not good :)
18:59:55  <Wolf01> /usr/src/openttd/trunk/src/fontcache.c:17:22: ft2build.h: No such file or directory
18:59:55  <Wolf01> /usr/src/openttd/trunk/src/fontcache.c:18:10: #include expects "FILENAME" or <FILENAME>
18:59:57  <Wolf01> mmm
19:00:14  <Rubidium> stillunknown: could you post you ideas about the parameter namings of makefile rewrite in
19:00:29  <Rubidium> Wolf01: read the wiki!
19:00:49  <stillunknown> i'll let it sink in for a moment, maybe i'll think of some more
19:01:04  <Wolf01> i read the wiki, i'm compiling!
19:01:24  <Rubidium> oh, hmm... I think I forgot to add something :)
19:01:43  <peter1138> Darkvater: think that's how it's supposed to work... the original slots are still hardcoded in functionality, but you can change them
19:01:49  <Wolf01> oh, maybe i forgot to add --disable-static
19:02:14  *** Sacro [Ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:02:18  <Rubidium> libfreetype2's freetype-config --cflags does not have ft2build.h in the
19:02:19  <Rubidium> path include search path. The workaround for this is to copy
19:02:19  <Rubidium> /usr/include/ft2build.h to /usr/include/freetype2/. Also linking does
19:02:19  <Rubidium> not work for static builds as freetype-config does not support that.
19:02:23  <Rubidium> You have to add the '--disable-static' flag when running './configure'.
19:02:40  <Rubidium> will update the wiki later tonight
19:02:45  <Rubidium> bbl :)
19:04:07  <Wolf01> cya
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19:04:54  <Wolf01> ok, now i must sync all my patches
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19:06:22  <stillunknown> Celestar: custom bridge heads work with yapf, but that's about the only one that seems to do ok
19:06:47  <KUDr> i am working on NTP
19:07:33  <stillunknown> otherwise a pretty feature
19:07:55  <stillunknown> not so usefull without signals on bridges
19:08:03  <Wolf01> mmm cygfreetype-6.dll not found when running the compiled ottd
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19:11:51  <MiHaMiX> ok, jabber is no longer available option
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19:15:23  <SpComb> for what?
19:15:52  <peter1138> you
19:16:46  *** Sacro [Ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:17:21  <stillunknown> SpComb: notification of bugs
19:17:28  <stillunknown> when signing up
19:17:52  <stillunknown> i must admit, some pretty small junctions can be built with cbh
19:22:55  <stillunknown> woo, found a bug with yapf
19:23:12  <stillunknown> ooh, no
19:23:14  <stillunknown> my fault
19:23:15  <KUDr> fix it!
19:23:42  <stillunknown> it was going in circles, but it turns out a signal was in the wrong direction
19:24:31  <KUDr> stillunknown: there is built-in looping also for two way red signals
19:24:56  <KUDr> to allow to use 'waiting loops' like airplanes do
19:25:21  <KUDr> because stopping trains is normally very expensive
19:25:39  <peter1138> ...
19:25:47  <peter1138> i'm fairly sure trains stop more often than loop...
19:26:09  <KUDr> true
19:26:14  <KUDr> but in ottd too
19:26:43  <stillunknown> KUDr: so ottd is going to be converted to "C++"
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19:27:15  <KUDr> stillunknown: i am not the only one who can decide and do it
19:27:21  <KUDr> we must agree
19:27:40  <KUDr> or at least i can start working on it and we will see
19:28:04  <KUDr> but if there are objections that would prevent merging i would like to know it before
19:28:18  <KUDr> but it will not be C++
19:28:23  <KUDr> it stays as it is
19:28:48  <KUDr> but will allow to use some C++ stuff easily where it will be optimal
19:29:07  <KUDr> case by case we will discuss it
19:29:10  <stillunknown> it will be c++, but not class based
19:29:20  <stillunknown> got an assertion :-(
19:29:23  <KUDr> not that we will do all OO
19:29:51  <stillunknown> openttd: /storage/tempstorage/downloads/openttd5/custombridgeheads/src/train_cmd.c:3150: TrainController: Assertion `chosen_track==1 || chosen_track==2 || chosen_track==4 || chosen_track==8 || chosen_track==16 || chosen_track==32' failed.
19:29:51  <stillunknown> Aborted
19:29:53  <KUDr> subset of C++
19:29:56  <stillunknown> any idea what that is?
19:29:58  <KUDr> well known as C
19:30:16  <KUDr> yes
19:30:20  <KUDr> cbh related
19:30:24  <stillunknown> known bug?
19:30:41  <KUDr> one of many
19:30:49  <KUDr> what position was train in?
19:31:18  <KUDr> leaving wormhole / entering cbh with choice?
19:31:29  <stillunknown> it was blocked
19:31:35  <KUDr> on signal
19:31:40  <stillunknown> yes
19:31:40  <KUDr> red
19:31:47  <KUDr> but
19:31:47  <stillunknown> and on turn around it asserts
19:31:56  <KUDr> signal on cbh is disabled now
19:32:11  <stillunknown> you want screenshot?
19:32:11  <KUDr> aha
19:32:15  <KUDr> reversing
19:32:21  <KUDr> on bridge
19:32:25  <stillunknown> yes
19:32:26  <KUDr> yes it is known
19:32:31  <KUDr> ok, thanks
19:33:54  <Rubidium> Wolf01: that library should be somewhere on your system; just copy it to the directory where openttd's binary is placed (bin)
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19:41:45  <Wolf01> ok, all the dll found, ottd doesn't work... black screen with the mouse pointer
19:41:48  <SpComb> Logs:
19:41:48  <Digitalfox> !logs
19:43:06  <Rubidium> stupid crappy cygwin
19:44:16  <Darkvater> whee I think I found the cause of the intermittent news-message crashes
19:44:23  <Darkvater> which I fixed before half-way
19:44:25  <Wolf01> going back to msys :P
19:45:14  <Darkvater> basically WP(w, news_d).ni points into _news_items[] but those can shuffle around when items are deleted and now news_d->ni can point to the wrong news_item struct
19:45:17  <Darkvater> he
19:49:44  <Wolf01> i was thinking if is possible to pass a name at a town when placing it in the editor instead of generate it, and so don't use custom town names which are limited to 512
19:50:26  <Darkvater> if it's not generated it's custom
19:50:33  <Darkvater> doesn't matter if you pass it or rename it later
19:50:58  *** mosfet [] has joined #openttd
19:50:59  <Wolf01> maybe chose it from the town name list
19:51:31  <Digitalfox> I read something on the logs today from irc, that peter wanted to insert a patch in trunk, anyone knows what it fix or add?
19:51:48  <Darkvater> it's a secret
19:52:06  <Rubidium> peter wants to commit a lot of patches
19:52:29  <Darkvater> fuckers
19:52:35  <Darkvater> I think my tv just broke :(
19:53:06  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: literally into pieces, or just broke down?
19:53:20  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: turn on the patch-setting: no TV breakdowns :)
19:53:24  *** Sacro_ [Ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:53:35  <Digitalfox> Rub-> Peter wants to commit a lot of patches.. Sure but i was refering to one some talked this afternoon
19:53:38  <MiHaMiX> sorry, I know it's not funny if it's really broken down
19:54:02  <Rubidium> Digitalfox: he talked about at least 4 I think
19:54:10  <Digitalfox> ok Rub :)
19:54:18  <Digitalfox> I was just curious
19:54:57  <Darkvater> T_T
19:55:09  <Darkvater> dammit
19:55:14  * Darkvater doesn't have money for a new tv
19:55:51  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
19:56:16  <peter1138> more time for coding? :D
19:56:36  <Darkvater> :)
19:59:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have a spare WinTV card
19:59:18  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: me too
19:59:29  <Belugas> Darkvater : sell commits right, you'll be able to buy a new tv
19:59:41  <Sacro> just gone from a WinTV PCI-FM to a HVR-1300
19:59:57  <Darkvater> Belugas: hehe
20:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> mine does not have FM
20:00:33  <CIA-1> KUDr * r7804 /branches/custombridgeheads/src/train_cmd.c: [cbh] - Fix: [NTP] suppress false 'Train is lost' message if destination tile was found
20:01:00  <Darkvater> KUDr: what did you do!
20:01:14  <KUDr> fix
20:01:15  <Darkvater> you're supposed to ask before a commit first and pay a fee
20:01:23  <KUDr> hmm
20:01:27  <KUDr> soryy
20:01:33  <KUDr> can i commit, please?
20:01:54  <Darkvater> what's your offer?
20:02:03  <KUDr> 
20:02:13  <Darkvater> hmm, anybody else offering more?
20:02:27  <Bjarni> what are we buying?
20:02:32  <Darkvater> commit rights
20:02:40  * KUDr sends Darkvater 
20:02:44  <KUDr> thanks
20:02:59  * Darkvater wasn't done with the auction yet :/
20:02:59  <KUDr> now go and buy TV
20:03:00  <Bjarni>  aren't enough
20:03:13  <Darkvater> no it aren't enough
20:03:19  <KUDr> why?
20:03:46  <Bjarni> because we want more
20:03:53  <KUDr> you must offer it in the shop
20:03:54  <Darkvater> well no
20:04:03  <Bjarni> k is acceptable, right?
20:04:05  <Darkvater> I want more and I'm not going to share it with you Bjarni
20:04:15  <Bjarni> o_O
20:04:16  <KUDr> if they will not have any better offer, they will sell it for 
20:04:27  <Bjarni> or not at all
20:04:56  <KUDr> depends on DV's diplomatic skills
20:05:02  <Darkvater> I was me getting one of those lcd tv's me knows. Savvy cost are bit more than  you knows
20:05:22  <KUDr> ahh
20:05:24  <KUDr> LCD
20:05:34  <KUDr> hmm
20:05:48  * Darkvater greatly appreciates KUDr's donation though
20:05:53  <KUDr> aiming too high i guess
20:05:57  <Darkvater> and grants him eternal commit rights
20:06:05  <KUDr> many thanks my master
20:06:06  <Darkvater> (until revoked)
20:06:52  <KUDr> but any revocation must be delivered to my advocate first
20:06:57  <Bjarni> actually.... in my svn log, KUDr did some stuff and now we are selling commit rights to him... what's going on? :)
20:07:08  <Darkvater> you will hear from my lawyer then in due time
20:07:14  <KUDr> ok
20:07:42  <KUDr> Bjarni: it was my mistake i forgot to ask before
20:07:54  <Darkvater> and an injunction order of course
20:08:27  * Darkvater tries turning on tv
20:08:46  <Bjarni> Darkvater: want to know what I did when my TV burned?
20:08:57  <Darkvater> peed on it?
20:09:02  <Darkvater> doesn't work
20:09:03  <Darkvater> bleh
20:09:16  <Born_Acorn>
20:09:18  <Bjarni> I unplugged it and took it outside right away, but after that
20:09:33  <Bjarni> server not found
20:09:35  <Bjarni> :P
20:09:42  <Born_Acorn> Can't you read?
20:09:43  <Born_Acorn> [20:09:55] <Darkvater> doesn't work
20:09:49  <Born_Acorn> Therefore, it won't work!
20:09:58  <stillunknown> KUDr Celestar: i found a problem, the bridgehead can't be changed with a train on it, is that intentional?
20:10:09  <stillunknown> because one tracks seems like it's there
20:10:14  <stillunknown> but the train won't go on it
20:10:25  <KUDr> stillunknown: it is another bug only
20:10:46  <KUDr> we must check the real position of the train
20:10:52  <Bjarni> Darkvater: you got a job, right?
20:11:03  <KUDr> not only that it is on the bridge as now
20:11:06  <Darkvater> if you wish to call it that yes :)
20:11:15  <Darkvater> problem is, it barely covers my monthly expenses
20:11:35  <Bjarni> hmm
20:11:38  <Belugas> wait until you have a wife...
20:11:42  <Belugas> and a kid!
20:11:50  * Darkvater doesn't think that's going to help
20:11:55  <Bjarni> prostitution is legal in NL... quick money...
20:11:59  <Belugas> nope... not at all!
20:12:00  <Darkvater> I could sell them though..
20:12:08  <Belugas> In the contrary mon capitain
20:12:18  <Darkvater> who wants to be my wife?
20:12:30  <qball> not me
20:12:31  <Belugas> with your salary??? Forget it!
20:12:33  <qball> sorry
20:12:35  <KUDr> Darkvater: wait i must ask my wife
20:12:43  <Eddi|zuHause2>
20:12:49  <KUDr> Darkvater: she wants photo first
20:13:33  <Darkvater>
20:13:37  <Darkvater> +3 years
20:13:54  <KUDr> hmm, she refused ;)
20:14:04  <Darkvater> oh that w#$JQW#$ OQIWJ(RVQP#uwqe9-
20:14:04  <Darkvater> ruvqw
20:14:16  <KUDr> no pedofile... and so
20:14:22  * Darkvater instructs lawyer to send letter of injunction to KUDr
20:14:24  <Sacro> Bjarni: i can move abroad and sel my body?
20:14:29  <Darkvater> 23 is not pedophile
20:14:44  <Rubidium> I am also the caretaker of the Windows 'port', and supply the nightly builds for Windows. <- Darkvater, you still provide nightly build?
20:14:57  <KUDr> Darkvater: she told you seem to be much younger
20:15:00  <Darkvater> I was
20:15:11  <KUDr> 20?
20:15:15  <Darkvater> yeah people say that all the time
20:15:31  <Darkvater>
20:15:38  <Darkvater> that's....hmm
20:15:47  <Darkvater> 2 years
20:15:48  <Darkvater> ago
20:15:56  <KUDr> looks better :)
20:16:00  <Belugas> Darkvater, if you want more cash, cut out on the lawyers ;)
20:16:03  <KUDr> maybe we will make a deal
20:16:05  <Bjarni> <-- I like this page. I never touched it and it appeared on it's own
20:16:11  <Bjarni> all of a sudden it was there
20:16:13  <Darkvater> KUDr: she can do part-time :)
20:16:33  <KUDr> cleaning and cooking?
20:16:48  <Darkvater> how is that going to make me money?
20:16:49  <Sacro> :o Bjarni is old
20:16:50  <Wolf01> one of my friends get this error compilimg with cygwin: /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-mingw32/3.4.4/../../../libfreetype.a(ftbase.o):ftbase.c(.text+0x2f90): undefined reference to '_setjmp'
20:16:55  <KUDr> this i want her to do here
20:16:55  <Darkvater> no, I'm selling her, remember?
20:16:58  <Sacro> !calc 2007-1745
20:16:59  <_42_> Sacro: 262;
20:17:00  <Bjarni> Sacro: well, I'm older than you
20:17:07  <Sacro> 262 years old it seems
20:17:07  <KUDr> aha!
20:17:12  <KUDr> ok 50/50
20:17:17  <Darkvater> KUDr: the poor wife. You are being very cruel to her
20:17:33  <KUDr> why do you think so
20:17:35  <Bjarni> maybe it's for her own good to be sold and get away from KUDr
20:17:39  <KUDr> you don't know her
20:17:49  <Rubidium> Wolf01: disabled static?
20:17:54  <KUDr> Bjarni: yes
20:18:04  <KUDr> making money by having fun
20:18:14  <KUDr> what more she can wish?
20:18:23  <Darkvater> you're a cruel man
20:18:27  <KUDr> nono
20:18:34  <KUDr> she wants some change
20:18:34  <Bjarni> actually one of the reasons why some people disagreed to open the borders to new EU countries (and why they should not be EU countries) is that they sell women... we don't want that
20:19:13  <caladan> ??
20:19:27  <caladan> in Poland we dont seel women
20:19:35  <KUDr> Bjarni: she will sell herself and than bring us money
20:19:38  <Darkvater> you trade them for cows? :)
20:19:40  <KUDr> it is different case
20:19:47  <Sacro> where can i buy a woman?
20:20:09  * Sacro goes to sainsburys
20:20:09  <KUDr> Sacro: thailand
20:20:12  <Darkvater> internet
20:20:29  <Bjarni> I find this argument interesting: We should not accept Romania until they got a well working justice system. Now they are in EU, so we can help them to get one, but originally it was a demand for them to get one before joining.... so much for the demands o_O
20:20:59  <Bjarni> <Sacro>	where can i buy a woman? <-- Ukraine, Romania, Russia, Africa... you name it
20:20:59  <Darkvater> oh please, this whole EU-join thing is a facade
20:21:22  <caladan> In Poland there's no good justice system either
20:21:33  <Darkvater> have a look at Croatia: that country would actually CONTRIBUTE something to the EU instead of being a bottomless pit to pour money down in and they don't let them join
20:21:37  <Darkvater> why?
20:21:53  <Darkvater> cause of some fluke about some general that even the croatians don't know where he is
20:23:24  * Darkvater wonders if MiHaMiX's wife is for sale?
20:23:28  <Darkvater> She's still "fresh"
20:23:29  <caladan> huh, they consider him a hero, you know...
20:23:40  * Darkvater hides
20:24:26  <ArmEagle> Brianetta heh i downloaded that whole set. Already like the sounds :)
20:24:27  <Bjarni> EU is for the criminals and the really big companies only. Here is a good example: Denmark banned some sort of toxic from food, later EU defined a limit (not ban, only limit) and will now give penalties to Denmark for "having a law, that prevents free competition"... guys, we are going to eat that stuff. We don't want EU to tell us to eat toxic stuff
20:24:31  <Darkvater> I won't state my personal preference here, but let me put it mildly that I don't really approve of the serbians
20:24:42  *** KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:24:52  *** Darkvater was kicked from #openttd by MiHaMiX [can you guess the answer? :P]
20:25:06  <caladan> Sweet :D
20:25:12  *** Darkvater [] has joined #openttd
20:25:12  *** mode/#openttd [+o Darkvater] by ChanServ
20:25:16  <Darkvater> we agree then
20:25:24  <caladan> There are many stupid laws in EU...
20:25:37  <CIA-1> maedhros * r7805 /branches/newhouses/src/ (newgrf_house.c town.h town_cmd.c):
20:25:37  <CIA-1> [NewHouses] -Codechange: Remove town->creating since _generating_world already does that job. Also remove a debug statement that makes it hard to see
20:25:37  <CIA-1> anything else.
20:25:45  <Darkvater> Bjarni: you were lucky. In Hungary ever since we've joined the EU supermarkets have been flooded with banned/old/rotten food
20:25:52  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
20:26:05  <Naksu> Bjarni: it's sometimes the other way around :D
20:26:06  <Maedhros> hmm. nano--
20:26:13  <caladan> True, in Poland we found lately rice that was banned in EU
20:26:24  <Darkvater> and waste-shipments from western-europe turning whole villages into waste-dumps
20:26:43  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: the situation is not so dark, I think
20:26:47  <Bjarni> I thought they used Africa for that
20:26:47  <caladan> Like Germans in eastern Poland....
20:26:51  <Darkvater> I'm telling you: none of the eastern/middle-european countries should've joined the EU
20:27:00  <caladan> No, to far to transport that stuff :/
20:27:08  <Bjarni> I'm not sure the whole EU idea is a good one
20:27:09  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: and the law regulations will be make more strict to prevent selling rotten food
20:27:10  <Darkvater> MiHaMiX: have you seen the report on DunaTV? The news guys got chased away
20:27:15  <Digitalfox> I vote for Portugal to become the only country in UE, others are banned.. But we keep the money that is the banks for UE organization.. ;)
20:27:17  <Naksu> Darkvater: slovenia should've
20:27:25  <Naksu> maybe poland too
20:27:34  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: poland? bah
20:27:38  <Bjarni> there is a difference between cooperation and ... well what they are doing
20:27:48  <caladan> What do you mean exactly? :>
20:27:56  <caladan> That meat affair with russia?
20:28:28  * Darkvater moves to... Canada to his big friend Belugas
20:28:34  <SpComb> 1) energy markets 2) ??? 3) world domination
20:28:35  <SpComb> yawn
20:28:38  <caladan> Huh, they dont want our meat, cause some Americans forged papers
20:28:42  <Digitalfox> But serioulsy, sorry to new countries, but 27 is too much.. And there should more restirt laws and condicions to become a UE country
20:28:43  <Naksu> anyways, it's sometimes the other way around with eu regulations
20:28:54  <hylje> SpComb: you forgot profit!!
20:29:02  <Naksu> as per eu regulations you wouldnt be able to sell finnish fish on the domestic market
20:29:06  <MiHaMiX> Digitalfox: EU..
20:29:12  <Naksu> but we got an exception, yay for us
20:29:37  <Digitalfox> UE -> União Europeia in portuguese.. Sorry about that
20:29:44  <Darkvater> so people
20:29:51  <Darkvater> LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC
20:29:55  <Darkvater> --------------------------------------------------
20:30:04  <Darkvater> MY TV BROKE!
20:30:04  <hylje> .
20:30:11  * caladan can fix it :D
20:30:39  <Bjarni> Naksu: well, it's good that you got fish because there was a proposal in EU that Finland is too far to the north to do farming... it would be way better for the economy if Finland imports all food and don't produce anything themselves... That proposal came from Spain (go figure) and was rejected
20:30:47  <Bjarni> but it tells a story anyway
20:31:31  <Bjarni> some people/countries will use EU to hurt other countries so they can increase their own profit
20:31:47  <Bjarni> Spain would benefit if all food sold in Finland should be grown in Spain
20:32:02  <Bjarni> but I fail to see how Finland would gain anything from that
20:32:18  <Naksu> we would gain more free space
20:32:24  <Naksu> because we have so very little of that :)
20:32:44  <hylje> finland is hueg
20:32:45  <caladan> Oh come on, you have no plase to live or what?
20:32:53  <Bjarni> yeah, but if Spain decides not to sell anything to Finland, you would have no food
20:33:21  <Darkvater> Bjarni: then they would have even _more_ free space
20:33:25  <Darkvater> it's a win-win situation
20:33:33  <Noldo> Bjarni: to do farming?
20:33:57  <Bjarni> yeah... growing wheat, potatoes and whatever... should be banned in Finland
20:33:59  <Wolf01> why ottd compiled with cygwin require so many dlls in its folder?
20:34:11  <Bjarni> according to some Spanish EU guy
20:34:14  <Naksu> (i was being sarcastic, we have like... huge tracts of land utterly devoid of anythin)
20:34:18  <caladan> Cause EU said it should be like that :P
20:34:21  <Darkvater> cause cygwin spells gay in kabuchto in reverse
20:34:23  <Noldo> Bjarni: your source?
20:34:24  <glx> Wolf01: they just need to be somewhere in path
20:34:30  <Bjarni> the news
20:34:31  <Rubidium> Wolf01: because it couldn't link libfreetype etc statically
20:34:38  <Bjarni> I don't have a link though
20:34:42  <Bjarni> it was a few years ago
20:34:43  <Naksu> but well
20:34:48  * Darkvater tries the tv once more
20:35:03  <caladan> Darkvater: What's wrong with TV?
20:35:10  <Naksu> we'd probably have a civil war or seccession from the EU on our hands if we were prohibited from farming
20:35:19  <Naksu> considering the madmen in charge
20:35:39  <ArmEagle> hmm, any chance the F1-12 keys could toggle the menus instead of just opening them?
20:35:44  <Bjarni> Darkvater: it's like the guy with the car, that got a broken battery. Nomatter how many times he turns the key, the engine will not start
20:36:58  <Belugas> [15:29] * @Darkvater moves to... Canada to his big friend Belugas   <----  GOOD friend, please... big... pfffff
20:37:25  <Bjarni> Naksu: how about making a Nordic trade union (or actually just improve the current one) instead of that EU stuff. EU would be screwed since they get their money from us
20:38:02  <Bjarni> Belugas: don't care about Darkvater. He just think that you are Big Foot or something
20:38:10  *** Peakki [] has joined #openttd
20:38:10  <Naksu> Bjarni: i think it'll be a possibility in the future
20:38:24  <Bjarni> we used to have one, but then EU broke it
20:39:45  <Bjarni> you can travel across boarders in EU without showing your passport if you are an EU citizen. The problem is that the only valid identification that EU agreed on using is.... your passport
20:40:05  <Bjarni> so unless you show a valid passport, you can't show that it's ok for you not to bring your passport
20:40:41  <Bjarni> at least that agreement worked in Scandinavia until EU broke that
20:41:23  <hylje> :p
20:41:52  <Bjarni> so people. What do you think? When EU scandalise train signals in the whole of EU, will it be Siemens' signal systems that will be mandatory everywhere (by Germany's request)?
20:42:24  <Bjarni> they talk about doing something like that in 2009
20:42:33  <Naksu> well
20:42:35  <Bjarni> or was it 2008... can't remember
20:43:02  <Naksu> the nordic battlegroup will probably go for a "anything but GERMAN BONUSENGINEERING"-stance
20:43:47  <Bjarni> actually Siemens do a great job in building signals
20:43:49  <Naksu> nothing german except 70-80's bmw's and mercedes-benz cars works in finland
20:43:55  *** mosfet [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:44:00  <Bjarni> unlike some other companies in EU
20:44:06  <Naksu> Bjarni: they do a great fucking job at building stuff that implodes during winter
20:44:15  <Bjarni> lol
20:44:31  <Bjarni> who built your signal system?
20:44:54  <Naksu> no idea
20:44:58  <Naksu> but the thing is
20:45:06  <Naksu> the trams in helsinki are "quality german engineering"
20:45:10  <CIA-1> miham * r7806 /trunk/src/lang/ (lithuanian.txt unfinished/lithuanian.txt): [Translations] Lithuanian is no longer unfinished, thanks for the current translators! Good work, keep it up!
20:45:27  <Naksu> they need to be shipped to germany like once a month to be serviced because they fucking explode during winter
20:45:41  <Bjarni> :D
20:47:11  <Bjarni> how could do you get it during the winter?
20:47:21  <Naksu> and the new nuclear reactor in olkiluoto is a year late because of "oh lol, there's winter"-problems in every stage of the construction so far
20:48:31  <Bjarni> reminds me of the Metro in Copenhagen. They are without drivers, so they got sensors that will stop them if "something" is on the tracks. Turns out that "something" is not only humans, but also: fog, snow, leaves, rain.....
20:49:11  <CIA-1> miham * r7807 /trunk/projects/ (langs.vcproj langs_vs80.vcproj): [Translations] Fix: r7806. Forgot to generate project files to include lithuanian
20:49:26  <Naksu> also, apparently areva-siemens thinks they're building a playhouse
20:49:40  <Bjarni> I consider the nuclear plant in Olkiluoto (I presume that you got the name right) to be a big mistake
20:50:00  <Naksu> it is
20:50:24  <Naksu> not only is the technology horribly outdated but areva-siemens has done nothing right so far
20:50:41  <Naksu> i'm surprised if the reactor doesnt explode during a test run
20:51:04  <hylje> lol, winter
20:51:13  <Bjarni> nuclear power have proven to be pretty dangerous. Even though the risks aren't that great, they are still there and what about radiative waste? We know what to do about it for the next say 200 years, but they need to protect it for like forever
20:51:43  <hylje> the majorly soviet technology-based Loviisa reactors have been working flawlessly now
20:51:52  <Naksu> Bjarni: i don't think nuclear power itself is bad
20:51:54  <Naksu> just that
20:51:58  <Bjarni> majority...
20:52:22  <hylje> and there's half of the components needed for Loviisa III been warehoused around the plant
20:52:30  <Naksu> EPR is basically a rehash of old 60's technology
20:52:33  <Bjarni> so we should accept 5% of them to be insecure?
20:53:03  <Naksu> still, i think they should've built a VHTR-style reactor
20:53:50  <Naksu> Bjarni: the 4th generation reactor as pretty flawless when it comes to meltdown etc. security
20:54:22  <Darkvater> bleh
20:54:26  <Bjarni> Sweden once built a nuclear plant next to Stockholm. They then figured that it was too close to their capital and it was torn down. They built one next to Copenhagen instead though...
20:54:55  <Bjarni> now they are closing that one as well
20:55:00  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7808 /branches/masterserver_updater/:
20:55:00  <CIA-1> [MasterServer-Updater] This branch is an effort to make the masterserver and
20:55:00  <CIA-1> website's serverlist updater use the same base-code for the networking part
20:55:00  <CIA-1> as trunk does. It also tackles the current 'misdesign' that the masterserver
20:55:00  <CIA-1> updates the game information of the website's serverlist instead of only the
20:55:02  <CIA-1> server state (online/offline).
20:55:22  <Naksu> or wait
20:55:24  <Darkvater> Rubidium: can you tell me how one adds new source or language file?
20:55:31  <Naksu> i think the pebble-bed vhtr reactors are called just htr :E
20:55:39  <Naksu> anyways, those are nice
20:55:44  <Naksu> just fucking expensive to build
20:56:12  <Bjarni> I consider the main issue with modern nuclear power to be the radioactive waste
20:56:12  <Rubidium> source files are added to sources.list. When languages and/or sources are added, you have to run projects/generate
20:56:36  <Bjarni> we should not generate it without knowing how to deal with it until it's not harmful anymore
20:57:09  <Rubidium> sources.list has the MSVC groupings 'encoded' in itself, so you have to find the correct location to place the file.
20:57:21  <Darkvater> Rubidium: so but I see MiHaMiX changed langs.vcproj. What about that?
20:57:23  <caladan> Naksu: Wow, how do you know nuclear plant so well
20:57:34  <Rubidium> Darkvater: also done via projects/generate
20:58:01  <Bjarni> caladan: terrorists always figure out how to strike at the weakest link when it's most unexpected
20:58:04  <Bjarni> :P
20:58:05  <Naksu> yes
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20:58:33  <Darkvater> Rubidium: but where do you add them?
20:59:02  <Rubidium> you don't
20:59:15  <Rubidium> it just looks at the src/lang/ directory
20:59:33  <Rubidium> it basically adds src/lang/*.txt
20:59:55  <Darkvater> ah good
21:00:10  <Darkvater> so you add a file, then run projects/generate and then commit?
21:00:11  *** BFM [] has joined #openttd
21:00:30  <Rubidium> yes
21:00:51  <Rubidium> also if you update one of the projects/*.in files
21:00:56  *** scia [] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
21:00:56  <Darkvater> how does one do this in windows ;p
21:01:09  <Rubidium> mingw/cygwin?
21:01:16  <Darkvater> if you don't have that
21:01:20  <hylje> you get that
21:01:25  <Darkvater> I'm not
21:01:31  <hylje> oh yes you are
21:01:36  <Darkvater> no I'm not
21:01:46  <Rubidium> Darkvater: as you did before
21:02:39  <Darkvater>  in the project file itself which will be overwritten unless also sources.list is updated
21:03:01  <Darkvater> not that I won't shell into somewhere *nix-like to run generate, but just being a general ass ;p
21:03:43  <Rubidium> that's because windows doesn't supply you with powerfull enough out-of-the-box tools to do it automatically
21:04:00  <Darkvater> yes it does! bat files!
21:04:13  <Darkvater> well whatever
21:04:14  <hylje> windows command line is inferior
21:05:22  <glx> Rubidium: and with mingw it fails :)
21:05:34  <glx> (eol conflicts)
21:06:19  <Rubidium> glx: could be solved by making all project files svn:eol-style unix :)
21:06:34  <glx> yes but msvc won't like it
21:07:44  *** [gen2]niki [] has joined #openttd
21:07:55  <Rubidium> what about unix2dos after generate?
21:09:05  *** Osai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:09:11  <glx> same problem :/
21:12:22  *** Osai [] has joined #openttd
21:14:55  <Darkvater> it seems I'm not getting back the tv anytime soon so I'll just do some coding
21:19:52  *** DJ_Mirage [] has quit [Quit:]
21:31:16  <peter1138> bye
21:31:37  <peter1138> i'm gonna fix up some issues with sprlimit...
21:33:39  *** Rexxie [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:34:00  <Bjarni> Darkvater: when my TV broke, I bought a TV tuner for the computer... it was a valid price for me, specially compared to what a real TV costs. Also it turned out that using a digital tuner to catch a digital signal and using it on a computer totally outranks normal TV, so that's a bonus
21:34:15  <Bjarni> I can watch one channel and record another if they are in the same multiplex
21:34:19  <Bjarni> highly recommended :)
21:34:32  * ln- has been doing that for over 2 years
21:34:58  <Darkvater> Bjarni: I need the tv to watch dvd's or xvid's streamed from the pc
21:35:08  <Darkvater> haven't used it for anything else much in years
21:35:14  <Darkvater> peter1138: gn peter1138 :)
21:35:28  <Bjarni> so you need a bigger monitor?
21:35:35  <ln-> what's the digital tv situation in the netherlands?
21:35:39  <Darkvater> sucks
21:35:46  <ln-> elaborate
21:36:10  <Darkvater> bigger monitor doesn't help cause one can't sit around it or put it in the centre of the room
21:36:28  <Bjarni> we only got 3 channels so far, but they got plans to extend it... I didn't lose any analogue channels that I miss though
21:36:36  <Darkvater> well we have digital tv but it costs a lot, you need to pay a lot more oif you want more channels and
21:36:43  <Gonozal_VIII> why would one do such a thing with a monitor?
21:37:00  <Darkvater> but I think this is general; you need 2 decoders if you have 2 tv's and want to watch seperate channels on each
21:38:57  <caladan> TV suxx, it uses so much money...
21:38:59  <caladan> and time
21:39:00  <Gonozal_VIII> "sit around it or put it in the centre of the room" <-- that's what you do with fire.. but tv?
21:39:02  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: Whoopsy]
21:39:25  <Darkvater> Gonozal_VIII: you want to eat it or what?
21:39:47  <caladan> did any one spot something like that:
21:39:50  <caladan> ===> Compiling music/extmidi.c
21:39:50  <caladan> ===> Linking openttd
21:39:50  <caladan> fontcache.o: In function `LoadFreeTypeFont':
21:39:50  <caladan> fontcache.c:(.text+0x1eb): undefined reference to `FcFini'
21:40:28  <Darkvater> --disable-static?
21:40:40  <caladan> ok
21:40:50  <Darkvater> just guessing from what I've read from Rubidium
21:40:58  <Gonozal_VIII> i put it in front of me... what would be the point in putting it in the center of the room? was your tv some kind of holographic 3d all side view thingie?
21:41:27  <Darkvater> fine, in the centre in front of the wall
21:41:33  <Darkvater> why do you have to be so anal?
21:41:47  <Brianetta> I'll get a TV when I don't have to apply for a license
21:41:51  <Gonozal_VIII> because i'm good at that
21:41:51  <Brianetta> I'd fail the test anyway
21:42:14  <Rubidium> Darkvater: no, caladan use a newer fontconfig, your one it too old (should be detected though)
21:42:35  <caladan> so it wasnt
21:42:48  <caladan> no errors prior to that
21:43:47  <Darkvater>
21:43:51  <Rubidium> caladan: what does 'pkg-config fontconfig --modversion' say?
21:44:10  <Darkvater> did someone do anything to town-road-building? It looks like in RC1 a town overbuilt a bridge or something
21:44:14  <Bjarni> <Darkvater>	but I think this is general; you need 2 decoders if you have 2 tv's and want to watch seperate channels on each <--- the DVB standard allows devices with one tuner to get more than one channel if they are in the same multiplex. DVB-T got a limit of 5 (I think), while DVB-S and DVB-C got way higher (15?)
21:44:36  <Bjarni> imagine being able to watch 15 channels at once (or record if you like) with a single tuner
21:44:40  <Darkvater> Bjarni: then we're ripped off with crappy decoders cause they say you need a second one
21:44:54  <Bjarni> :P
21:45:12  <Bjarni> I recorded 3 different movies at once at one time with a single tuner
21:45:18  <caladan> Rubidium: 2.2.3
21:45:42  <Rubidium> and ./configure didn't complain?
21:45:51  <caladan> no config made
21:45:59  <caladan> i was told yestarday make is enought
21:46:06  <caladan> that it is done
21:46:09  <Bjarni> but I have yet to see a tuner directly for TVs, that can do that. All the tuners with that ability that I have seen so far have been for computers
21:46:19  <Rubidium> caladan: you're using 0.5.0-rc2?
21:46:31  <caladan> yes
21:46:36  <caladan> trying to compile thatr
21:46:41  <Rubidium> hmm, ok, that doesn't complain about it
21:46:51  <Darkvater> Bjarni: ah ok then; that explains
21:47:37  <caladan> so shall i upgrade that fontconfig?
21:47:50  <Rubidium> you need to either update libfontconfig to 2.4.x or disable fontconfig in Makefile.config; for the last there must be an entry in Makefile.config like WITH_FONTCONFIG, remove the version number from that line
21:48:06  <pv2b> are jets OK at commuter airports+
21:48:08  <pv2b> ?
21:48:12  <caladan> rgr
21:49:46  <Bjarni> Darkvater: when you think about it, it's actually somewhat logically. You will need a computer with a decent HD and decent CPU power to handle multiple MPEG-2 streams realtime
21:50:54  <Bjarni> and don't think about adding multiple hardware MPEG-2 decoders... that could be expensive compared to how often they are used
21:51:08  <Darkvater> Bjarni: MPEG2 is peanuts, so many el-cheapo dvd player can handle it
21:51:23  <Darkvater> I still think it's a rip-off
21:51:33  <Bjarni> me too
21:51:35  <Bjarni> but
21:51:43  <Darkvater> you get all hyped up for digital tv and then have to buy a zillion decoders just to be able to watch it at home
21:51:55  <Darkvater> and I haven't seen too many tv's out there with a decoder built in
21:52:01  <Bjarni> I have yet to figure out a good way normal TVs can benefit from this, but... we pay them to figure that out ;)
21:53:42  <blathijs> Darkvater: Dunno, we got one for free. Quality is a lot better than analog, even on a ordinary TV
21:53:53  <Bjarni> to benefit for the nice stuff in digital TV signals, you got to have a decoder, that can handle all of the incoming stuff. Whenever I record something, I record the incoming stream, so if it contains multiple languages, multiple video angles (not used yet here), subtitles and so on, I can control that when I play it, rewind and try again with a different setting if I like
21:54:18  <Bjarni> also setting 16x9 or 4x3 at playback time
21:54:25  <Darkvater> blathijs: UPC or Casema?
21:54:43  <blathijs> Darkvater: Neither. We have the "Centrale Antenne Inrichting Harderwijk" :-D
21:54:49  <Darkvater> ..
21:55:07  <blathijs> We were one of the first to have a choice in cable internet too :-)
21:55:21  <blathijs> But I think UPC gives away a decoder as well?
21:56:03  <Darkvater> I have Casema
21:56:17  <Darkvater> they say digital tv is for free but you have to pay about 90 euros
21:57:13  <Darkvater> m het digitale signaal te ontvangen, heeft u een digitale ontvanger nodig (verkrijgbaar vanaf EUR 99,--) en een Casema DTV-pack (EUR 29,95).
21:57:27  <Darkvater> so goodby and fuck you sir
21:57:54  <blathijs> hmm..
21:58:06  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
21:58:16  <Belugas_Gone> on those kind words, good night all
21:58:21  <Darkvater> but wait, 99 is just the basic decode that does nothing. for only 399 you can buy a better one
21:58:21  <BFM> Night mate!
21:58:27  <Darkvater> Belugas_Gone: gn Belugas! :D
21:59:14  <Maedhros> night Belugas_Gone
21:59:31  <Darkvater> and if you want any HDTV signal you're cut back 299
21:59:37  <Darkvater> sad; just sad
22:00:10  <Darkvater> I'll stick to xvid and dvd-r, thank you
22:00:15  <Noldo> I've heard that the "full feature" cards are not worth it
22:00:23  <Darkvater> at least when I get a new tv :)
22:01:31  <pv2b> bah. tv. an antiquated method of one-way media distribution.
22:02:25  <Bjarni> true
22:02:52  <Bjarni> but it's well established by now
22:03:01  <pv2b> we'll see how long it lasts.
22:03:10  <Bjarni> years
22:03:13  <Bjarni> many years
22:03:14  <Noldo> is there a better one for one-way media distribution?
22:03:14  <pv2b> i for one haven't owned one fo years
22:03:37  <pv2b> Noldo: if you want to do one-way media distribution at a specific time, tv is actually a pretty good technology
22:03:50  <pv2b> it's an excellent technology for live coverage of world events, sports, etc
22:04:12  <Bjarni> here we got a law that states that two certain TV channels have to be reachable by everybody because in case of the government needs to tell the people something, they should be able to quickly access everybody
22:04:17  <Bjarni> like wartime and whatever
22:04:36  <Bjarni> really nasty weather
22:04:46  <pv2b> for tv shows, movies, etc, i definitely don't want to be the slave to the television channels deciding what to watch when
22:04:50  <Bjarni> burning chemical factories and so on
22:05:01  <pv2b> Bjarni: in sweden, we do that on the radio, much more sensible
22:05:02  <Noldo> pv2b: agreed
22:05:10  <Bjarni> they use the radio for that as well, just to really be able to access everybody in no time
22:05:19  <pv2b> after all, are you likely to have TV reception in the cellar -- or even TV? :-)
22:06:06  <Bjarni> at one time, I didn't watch TV or heard radio, and then they needed to get a message out to me anyway
22:06:17  <Bjarni> so they started the air alarm thing
22:06:25  <pv2b> if something really impotant happens they start the air alarm here too
22:06:26  <Bjarni> then the radio told what was going on
22:06:30  <pv2b> as well as testing it four times a year
22:06:33  <Darkvater> is that a private kinda thing? :)
22:06:41  <Bjarni> turned out somebody had dug into a main gas pipe (oops)
22:07:03  <Bjarni> really main one, so they started evacuating people due to the amount of gas in the air
22:07:28  <Bjarni> Darkvater: the air alarm?
22:07:53  <glx> here they test it every first wednesday of month
22:07:59  <Bjarni> you know it.... whenever you see anything on TV from WW2 and you hear the incoming bomber alert, they use that kind of thing
22:08:14  <Gonozal_VIII> every saturday noon
22:08:30  <Bjarni> here they used to test it every Wednesday at 12:00
22:08:42  <Bjarni> now it's just once a year because people complained that it was too noisy
22:08:48  <Noldo> Bjarni: here every Monday about 12:00
22:09:02  <Bjarni> they do make silent tests each week though
22:09:07  <Gonozal_VIII> should be 4 am or something :-)
22:09:25  <Bjarni> yeah
22:09:33  <Bjarni> hmm
22:11:07  <Bjarni> reminds me of a church person (not the priest) in Norway, who thought he should let the bells ring all Christmas day. After 5 hours he began to wonder if that was right and started reading the rules and then rushed to the church to turn them off
22:11:32  <Bjarni> issue, that made him wonder: his kids could not sleep
22:13:39  <pv2b> Bjarni: huh? :-)
22:14:04  <Bjarni> some guy misread the rules and let the church bells ring for 5 hours
22:16:02  <Wolf01> night
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22:16:41  <pv2b> Bjarni: and nobody complained?
22:18:06  <Darkvater> his kids :)
22:18:26  <Brianetta> Nobody feels justified complaining about church bells
22:18:48  <Brianetta> despite the fact that they're exceeded in sheer teeth-grinding annopyingness only by Scottish bagpipes
22:19:12  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:20:00  <caladan> Rubidium: thx, its working now :-)
22:20:08  <Darkvater> holy crap
22:20:15  <Darkvater> tons of RC2 servers
22:20:35  <blathijs> We probably have a lot of those people
22:20:38  <blathijs> "user"
22:20:39  <blathijs> +s
22:20:58  <Darkvater> it's good to see though
22:21:05  <Darkvater> one 0.4.5 server...
22:21:06  <blathijs> indeed
22:21:17  <Darkvater> think the guy forgot he had a server running or something?
22:22:08  <blathijs> or never bothered to upgrade: "It works, right?" :-)
22:22:29  <Darkvater> we should crash his server ^^
22:22:36  <Darkvater> I still have test's exploits
22:22:50  <pv2b> do they allow arbitrary code execution?
22:23:10  <pv2b> you could hack it with some shellcode goodness and upgrade to rc2 for him
22:23:10  <pv2b> :-)
22:23:18  <Darkvater> I think some did yes
22:23:26  <Darkvater> %s vulnerability
22:23:38  <Darkvater> and several missing checks with which you can crash a server
22:24:16  <Darkvater>
22:24:18  <hylje> :o
22:24:39  <CIA-1> glx * r7809 /trunk/projects/generate: -Fix: convert \r to \n before parsing files with awk in projects/generate so it works using mingw/msys
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22:26:20  <Darkvater> or even a better one: if you have a malicious server advertised to the master server any affectd clients will not be able to see the master-server list and get kicked out immediately to main menu
22:26:26  <Zuu> Have anyone seen my patch yet?
22:26:37  <Zuu> Or is it to hidden?
22:26:47  <hylje> :D
22:26:57  <Zuu> too*
22:27:11  <hylje> nice sploits
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22:30:55  <Darkvater> Zuu: what's your patch?
22:31:07  <Zuu> It's a bugfix for the airport-thing.
22:31:17  <Darkvater> ah, the radiusone
22:31:28  <Darkvater> I'll might take a peek
22:31:30  <hylje> i want a -1 by -4 airstrip
22:31:39  <Darkvater> although KUDr is the actual responsible one ;p
22:31:47  <Darkvater> <- evil
22:31:50  <KUDr> ?
22:31:51  <hylje> :o
22:32:04  <Zuu> I uploaded it to the bugreport, and then I noticed that you can create patch entrys in the tracker :/
22:32:15  <hylje> btw kudr, you are aware that road vehicles with yapf might get lost in an infinite loop
22:32:22  <hylje> in a city with looped roads
22:32:26  <Zuu> Darkvater: :p
22:32:35  <Darkvater> KUDr: remember the remembered station acceptance areas? It doesn't play nicely some times with certain stations and asserts
22:32:50  <KUDr> hylje: no, do you have some simple case?
22:33:15  <hylje> i could reproduce it three times
22:33:21  <KUDr> Darkvater: the same. Need simple test case
22:33:22  <hylje> ill try to do so again in a clean environment
22:33:27  <Darkvater> Zuu: ^
22:33:43  <KUDr> hylje: would be nice
22:33:57  <hylje> actually, i bumped into it four times
22:34:30  <Zuu> Darkvater: ?
22:34:41  <Darkvater> Zuu: show testcase to KUDr
22:34:42  <KUDr> Zuu: what number?
22:34:57  <Zuu>
22:35:13  <Zuu> Includes patch redy to apply ;)
22:35:44  <Zuu> Lot of text to read if you want too :)
22:36:39  <Zuu> KUDr: A better way to reproduce: set station_spread=4, build any airport bigger than 4.
22:36:57  <KUDr> ok
22:37:01  <KUDr> will try
22:40:29  <Zuu> I think the patch I made does not include any new bugs and indeed it works. (the assertion is not executed). But I guess you want to have a look on it too as it is 'your' area.
22:41:56  <glx> hmm when I decrease station spread with rail station build window open, max platform/length is updated, but it's not updated when I increase station spread
22:43:29  <Bjarni> heh
22:43:49  <ln-> cmd <-> ctrl
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22:46:45  <blathijs> 23:32 < Zuu> I uploaded it to the bugreport, and then I noticed that you can create patch entrys in the tracker :/ <-- If the patch fixes a bug, it's better placed with the bugreport
22:47:00  <Zuu> blathijs: Ok.
22:49:52  <Zuu> [design dilema] Should one be allowed to build arports larger than station spread? Guess no, but it is not trival.
22:50:46  <Bjarni> you mean you want to decrease the station spread to a level where the largest airports aren't allowed?
22:52:29  <Zuu> I played a MP game yesterday with station_spread = 4, and today I host a similar one. I see it as a difficulty option rather than memory option when it is set so low, and having a intercontinental airport when you can only have 4x4 railway-stations are a bit odd.
22:53:10  <Zuu> On the other hand having only small airports is a bit limited.. but I think that would be better than all airports.
22:53:45  <Zuu> I counted intercontinental to 11x[someting <11] and deafault station_spread is 12. So it does not affect defualt settings.
22:54:48  <Zuu> But I see that it requires updates to the GUI if airports are dissabled due to station_spread is set low, which might require some hours to fix.
22:55:33  <SpComb> ....uuuu
22:55:36  <Zuu> So for 0.5 I think just fixing the assertion => leting one build any airport, will be enoght.
22:55:49  <Zuu> Or am I out in the wild now?
22:55:55  <CIA-1> KUDr * r7810 /trunk/src/station_cmd.c: -Fix: FS#504 Building airport whose size exceeds max station spread-out caused assert. (Zuu)
22:56:07  <KUDr> Zuu: can you test it please?
22:56:34  <Zuu> KUDr: Sure.. If you just did apply my patch I have ran a server with it for 6 hours or so.. :)
22:56:40  <KUDr> no
22:56:43  <Zuu> Okay.
22:56:46  <KUDr> different one
22:56:50  <Zuu> Okay.
22:57:00  <KUDr> thanks
23:02:07  *** init [] has joined #openttd
23:04:05  <Zuu> KUDr: Works like charm :)
23:05:13  <KUDr> thanx
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23:11:45  <ln-> does anyone have a spare HP JetDirect or similar? (a parallel <-> ethernet print server)
23:15:40  <BFM> hp laser jet 5100 here
23:16:02  <BFM> oh, server, my bad
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23:37:34  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7811 /branches/masterserver_updater/ (22 files in 6 dirs): [MSU] -Add: initial file structure, makefiles and copying of some files from /trunk that are useful for the masterserver and updater.
23:37:43  <Darkvater>  \o/
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23:39:35  <Sacro> ooh a new branch
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23:46:42  <nairan> good morning
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23:53:26  <CIA-1> glx * r7812 /trunk/src/rail_gui.c: -Fix: rail station build window was not correctly updated after station_spread change
23:54:52  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:55:39  <CIA-1> rubidium * r7813 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r7799): it is $with_zlib, not $zlib.
23:56:48  <Darkvater> glx: nice one...
23:56:56  <Darkvater> that whole thing on one line
23:57:01  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-213-249-186-101.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd

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