Log for #openttd on 23rd January 2007:
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00:04:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r8363 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: [autoreplace GUI] moved the autoreplace GUI to a file of it's own
00:07:32  <Bjarni> ok, that was the easy part
00:07:38  <Bjarni> now to dig into this mess....
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00:24:36  <izhirahider> Bjarni, Is this still accurate?
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00:25:24  * ln- installing Solaris...
00:26:02  <caladan> solaris? wow...
00:26:58  <ln-> yeah, and Solaris/SPARC, not some x86 thing
00:29:19  <setrodox> ln-, which sparc? :o
00:29:53  <setrodox> i had access to a microsparc some time ^^
00:30:22  <ln-> SparcStation 5
00:31:22  <setrodox> ah, the sparcstation is running a microsparc too, isn't it?
00:31:32  <setrodox> (microsparc as in the cpu)
00:31:59  <caladan> so, thats a big thing ;]
00:32:13  <caladan> a fried of mine installed solaris 10 on p4-2.4 :D
00:32:33  <setrodox> solaris doesn't really feel like it should on x86 ^^
00:32:43  <setrodox> though i don't like solaris much at all :S
00:32:49  <ln-> hmm, i'm not sure about the cpu
00:32:58  <caladan> @ my university we got two HUGE servers with solaris
00:33:27  <setrodox> ln-, if you know the speed of it i'll probably be able to guess the cpu type from it ^^
00:33:39  <caladan> and we had some exercises in programming and someonu wrote a program that did hang the system permanently :D
00:33:49  <setrodox> caladan, heh
00:34:16  <caladan> you see, we were training usage of sysV process comunication
00:34:26  <caladan> with messages
00:34:39  <caladan> id did not stand the test ;-)
00:34:52  <setrodox> hehe ^^
00:34:58  <ln-> setrodox: it was something about 100 MHz
00:35:27  <setrodox> ln-, that's probably a better microsparc then, mark 2 or what it was called
00:35:55  <setrodox> only other cpu with 100mhz in the sparc series was the hypersparc i think, and afaik that wasn't used in the sparcstations
00:36:17  <setrodox> i nearly sound like i would know about what i'm talking :P
00:36:23  <caladan> hehe
00:36:41  <caladan> im not familiar with those uCs
00:36:51  <caladan> i prefer ARMs, MIPSs, AVRs and so on :D
00:37:08  <setrodox> microsparc was a fullfledged cpu ^^
00:37:14  <setrodox> not a microcontroller
00:37:21  <ln-> i finally found a bigger hard disk yesterday, the original 1 GB was a little bit limiting for ... anything.
00:37:23  <caladan> yeah, i know :D
00:37:23  <setrodox> in the sense of embedded stuff
00:37:32  <setrodox> oki, only wanted to clarify ^^
00:37:43  <setrodox> ln-, hehe, i can guess ^^
00:37:44  <caladan> but see: the new ARM uP using ARM966 core runs at 96MHz :D
00:37:54  <Bjarni> <izhirahider>	Bjarni, Is this still accurate? <-- yeah
00:38:02  <Bjarni> I didn't change anything yet ;)
00:38:17  <ln-> is the solaris port of OpenTTD still working?
00:38:20  <setrodox> nice thing about the micro sparcs is that they need virtually no power :)
00:38:36  <caladan> like all CMOS devices if you know what I mean :P
00:38:36  <BFM> Oh! Good news!
00:38:37  <BFM> "Chaser star cleared over Bulldogs stunt"
00:38:53  <BFM> oops, wrong channel ^_^
00:39:09  <setrodox> caladan, yeah ^^
00:39:34  <setrodox> arm is overkill for hobby projects sadly though
00:39:39  * Bjarni once tried to compile on solaris
00:39:40  <caladan> why?
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00:40:04  <setrodox> well, never did anything which an atmega8 couldn't handle ^^
00:40:15  <setrodox> maybe i should've said "overkill for my stuff"
00:40:21  <caladan> hehe
00:40:36  <caladan> my engineer dipoma runs on Atmel ARM
00:40:42  <caladan> @48MHz
00:40:50  <setrodox> :o
00:40:52  <setrodox> what is it?
00:41:00  <caladan> midi2spi translator
00:41:07  <caladan> with debug with uart
00:41:24  <caladan> i need a lot of RAM
00:41:29  <setrodox> oh :o
00:41:31  <caladan> to buffer data
00:41:36  <setrodox> :)
00:41:39  <caladan> look, how much does cost atmega128?
00:41:56  <caladan> in poland like 
00:41:59  <setrodox> no idea only bought 8's and 16's yet
00:42:01  <setrodox> oh
00:42:43  <caladan> and my arm, which has 64kB of flash, 16kB of RAM, ADC, USB, 3UARTS and can run @ 60MHz, and IS 32bit, *ALSO* 
00:43:00  <setrodox> oh
00:43:08  <setrodox> but it probably needs more power, doesn't it?
00:43:25  <caladan> it isnt portable device
00:43:35  <setrodox> ah, ok
00:43:36  <caladan> LCD backlight uses more :D
00:43:40  <setrodox> hehe ^^
00:43:58  <setrodox> midi is something i always wanted to try
00:44:09  <caladan> its an interface for Analog's DSP EvKit
00:44:20  <setrodox> i have gameboys and stuff lying around here, making a midi gameboy synth would be fun ^^
00:44:30  <caladan> you see, that EvKit has only 4buttons and 8leds :/
00:44:34  <setrodox> EvKit doesn't ring a bell
00:44:38  <setrodox> oh :o
00:44:41  <caladan> Hmm, evaluation board
00:44:46  <setrodox> ah, ok
00:45:07  <caladan> so im doing interface to connect BFC2000 :D
00:45:17  <caladan> wait... a sec... link :D
00:45:30  <setrodox> bcf maybe?
00:45:36  <caladan>
00:45:58  <setrodox> oh
00:45:59  <caladan> BCF is a weapon in DOOM? :>
00:46:29  <setrodox> bcf is the same thing ^^
00:46:37  <setrodox>
00:46:38  <caladan> my tutor will have nice interface to tune his filters
00:46:50  <setrodox> one of the writings maybe is wrong :P
00:46:51  <caladan> shit, it says BFC on my console, true :D
00:47:01  <caladan> hmm, BCF...
00:47:08  <caladan> ok, nevermind :D
00:47:14  <caladan> so i have something to play with
00:47:25  <caladan> and I can tell you basics of midi :D
00:47:30  <caladan> its a simple UART
00:47:44  <caladan> no voltage, current
00:47:44  <setrodox> i know some basic protocol stuff of it already
00:47:53  <caladan> baud=31250
00:47:55  <setrodox> but i only flew over some specs ^^
00:48:07  <caladan> Easy protocol
00:48:12  <caladan> But really nice :-)
00:48:15  <setrodox> 31250 only? that explains why sysex bank transferring is so slow ^^
00:48:44  <setrodox> i'll be right back, getting some food
00:50:01  <caladan> and if we say about arms, a friend of mine built an MP3 player on AT91SAM7S256 :D
00:50:09  <caladan> worth like 12$
00:51:41  <setrodox> :D
00:52:23  <caladan> and the cheapest ARM
00:52:24  <setrodox> i thought of using an atmega for a portable sid player with a real 6581 once, but it's one of the things i never did :(
00:52:39  <caladan> LPC2101
00:52:45  <caladan> costs like .5
00:53:02  <setrodox> :o
00:53:29  <setrodox> i'll have to look at the specs of that one ^^
00:55:04  <caladan> look at this:
00:55:19  <caladan> i have many io pins to be used :D
00:55:45  <setrodox> heh, nice :D
00:55:46  <caladan> thou it's bit wrong, already made corrections
00:58:58  <caladan> i already tested many uPs so i have a bit of experience with useing them :D
00:59:20  <setrodox> heh, i only touched that stuff lightly so far ^^
01:00:42  <caladan> ive already tried '51, avr, arm, hitachi, msp430 :D
01:01:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r8364 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Codechange (r8362): added an assert to catch conditions where a request wants to draw more vehicles than the list contains
01:01:25  <setrodox> for me it was the atmega, and a 8051 ^^
01:01:44  <caladan> :D
01:02:28  <setrodox> i just got out a box with some chips in it, for example a 8031AH
01:02:29  <setrodox> :P
01:02:48  <setrodox> wasn't the AH one the silly one which was programmable with basic?
01:03:26  <setrodox> intel '82 :)
01:03:36  <caladan> hmm?
01:03:43  <caladan> 8031 is like 8051, just no internal mem
01:04:04  <caladan> you can program everything with basic :D
01:04:07  <setrodox> yes, i know, but the 8031AH != 8031
01:04:11  <caladan> hmm, strange
01:04:15  <caladan> it executes BASIC? :D
01:04:33  <setrodox> i think i so...
01:04:39  <caladan> cant be...
01:04:48  <setrodox> i think i even got a ah basic book somewhere
01:05:38  <setrodox> ah, sorry, misunderstood you
01:05:55  <setrodox> it's probably a compiled dialect of basic
01:06:29  <caladan> hmmm
01:06:34  <caladan> that's strange too
01:06:42  <caladan> it has interpreter onchip?
01:06:49  <caladan> or just software interpreter?
01:08:38  <setrodox> if it would be compiled then there wouldn't be a need for that i think
01:08:58  <setrodox> but then i don't understand why there is a special version of the chip for that basic dialect :S
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01:09:35  <caladan> maybe it has more ram or someting
01:09:48  <setrodox> heh, don't know where i have those from, just found some z80a stuff, cpu, pio, dart and some other ones :o
01:10:11  <caladan>
01:10:35  <caladan> you can write programm in basic, but its still translated to plain machine code
01:10:45  <caladan> im that lazy, im using C almost all the time :D
01:10:55  <setrodox> hehe ^^
01:10:58  <caladan> sdcc and arm-gcc
01:11:04  <caladan> and avrgcc
01:11:22  <setrodox> i used assembly for the arm cpu's in the nintendo ds once ^^
01:11:39  <setrodox> was rather fun with all the peripheral stuff and dual processor mode :)
01:12:05  <setrodox> i first wanted to try to do sound miking on the slower one, but then i saw that the ds has 32 hardware sound channels :P
01:12:12  <caladan> i dont have to use thumb :D
01:12:51  <caladan> you see, i have almost all peripherials libs written and it uses like 1/6 of it's program memory :D
01:12:52  <setrodox> thumb is fun if you try to size optimize sometimes ^^
01:13:00  <setrodox> heh
01:13:09  <caladan> it's damn small code :D
01:13:15  <setrodox> well, when i use assembly it's just for fun ;)
01:13:25  <caladan> you know about that conditional execution and shifts in every instruction :D
01:13:27  <setrodox> not because there would be any reason for it
01:13:34  <setrodox> yeah, that's pretty nice
01:13:54  <setrodox> that gave me a wow feeling after beeing tortured by x86 assembly ^^
01:15:02  <caladan> yestarday i wrote strlen using MMX :>.
01:15:09  <caladan> shit, that's hard! :D
01:15:14  <setrodox> heh
01:15:21  <setrodox> never used extensions yet ^^
01:15:24  <caladan> thou it tests 8BYTES at once...
01:15:36  <setrodox> that surely is fast :o
01:15:41  <caladan> tests 8 BYTES in like 6 instructions
01:15:56  <setrodox> nice
01:17:00  <caladan> and if I can recommend something
01:17:06  <caladan> try to use Nokia3310 LCD :D
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01:17:26  <setrodox> :o
01:17:32  <setrodox> is it easy to use?
01:17:33  <caladan> it has SPI interface
01:17:40  <setrodox> oh
01:17:56  <setrodox> i only used alpha numeric displays yet
01:18:30  <caladan> you just send bit after bit thru SPI
01:18:45  <caladan> in poland it costs like .5
01:19:47  <Triffid_Hunter> caladan: got a link? i have some of those
01:19:51  <setrodox> i'll remember about that when i'll have need for more advanced display stuff in some project :)
01:20:40  <caladan>
01:20:58  <Triffid_Hunter> fyi, 3210 screen is identical :)
01:23:24  <caladan> 3330 same i think
01:59:26  <caladan> ok, got to go to sleep finally
01:59:30  <caladan> bye
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02:31:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r8365 /trunk/docs/landscape.html:
02:31:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: Remove unneeded and dead links, install Owner informations, add attribute m6.
02:31:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: More to come on that matter...
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04:15:27  <Ailure> IS there any set
04:15:31  <Ailure> with good Maglev or monorail?
04:15:46  <Ailure> and note that I already have UKRS
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04:58:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think the point of UKRS is to not have a universal maglev system
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05:19:13  <Sturm> Hi everybody. Firstly, sorry about my poor English. I'm using teh OpenTTD RC3 and I cant get the money that my trains obtains... Are you having the same problem?
05:19:38  <DaleStan> Use RC4.
05:20:13  <DaleStan> If that doesn't solve the problem, post a savegame on the forums.
05:20:18  <Sturm> :) Ok, I'll get it. But the problem I reported was found?
05:20:37  <Sturm> by someone else?
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07:44:32  <peter1138> bah
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08:58:26  <Maedhros> morning
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09:08:27  * peter1138 wonders if Bjarni's heard of svn copy
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09:38:40  <Tron__> peter1138?
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09:45:08  <peter1138> Tron__: autoreplace_gui.cpp
09:54:53  <Maedhros> will code like  (int64 * int64) / int64  use int64 intermediates, or will the intermediate results get truncated?
09:55:45  <Tron__> int64
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09:56:21  <Maedhros> good good. thanks
09:59:10  <Maedhros> hmm. how about  (int32 * int64) / int64 ?
10:04:35  <Tron__> the result of a calculation is never shorter than its longest operand
10:05:44  <Maedhros> ah, that's good to know
10:05:46  <Maedhros> thanks :)
10:06:27  <Tron__> data types short than an int get promoted to int before a calculation takes place
10:06:41  <Tron__> char c
10:06:45  <Tron__> short s;
10:06:55  <Tron__> c + s;
10:06:58  <Tron__> is actually
10:07:04  <Tron__> (int)c + (int)s;
10:07:41  <peter1138> char c; char s; c + s?
10:08:20  <Tron__> types shorter than int /always/ get promoted to int before a calculation takes place
10:09:06  <Tron__> so you example still is equal to (int)c + (int)s
10:09:45  <peter1138> *nod*
10:12:57  <peter1138> bah, outlook is *still* deleting
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10:13:06  <peter1138> how long can it take to remove 60,000 emails...
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10:21:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8366 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp:
10:21:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: [Graphs] Make the scaling code less cryptic, and fix two longstanding bugs.
10:21:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: 1) If the graph contained negative values, the y axis labels were half the size they should have been.
10:21:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: 2) If the maximum value was larger than the height of the graph in pixels << 32, all datapoints were scaled to 0.
10:32:57  <Brianetta> peter1138: Haven't you been deleting those emails for about a week?
10:42:36  <peter1138> nah, this is a separate lot
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10:55:31  <Darkvater> ugh, morning
10:56:32  <Bjarni> railroads are nice
10:56:36  <Bjarni> ... when they work
10:57:22  <Bjarni> I just had to drive people around because the trains didn't
10:57:39  <Bjarni> they broke a switch (officially), but I presume something more is wrong
10:57:44  <Bjarni> anyway
10:57:47  <Bjarni> Darkvater:
10:58:10  <Bjarni> the order list fix as it's possible to do now after I cleaned up the code it touch
11:00:02  <Bjarni> Darkvater: do you still think it's too big?
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11:06:17  <Darkvater> lemme see
11:07:44  <Darkvater> Bjarni: it looks better but I cannot comment on the functionality
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11:08:02  <Darkvater> eg does it solve the fundamental problem of the shared orders that is present at the moment?
11:09:42  <peter1138> Bjarni!
11:10:22  <peter1138> you lost change history for autoreplace
11:11:39  <Bjarni> I know, but I'm going to more or less rewrite the autoreplace GUI
11:11:56  <Darkvater> ..
11:12:05  <Bjarni> it's so garbaged by design that I think it's easier this way... it's a mess
11:12:26  <Darkvater> Bjarni: the correct answer would NOT be 'I know' but "I am terribly sorry, how can I fix it so this doesn't happen next time?"
11:12:49  <Bjarni> how should I move parts of a file into another file without clearing history of that part?
11:13:11  <Bjarni> besides it's still present in the old file, so it's not completely lost
11:13:47  <Darkvater> svn copy
11:15:24  <Brianetta> Is it possible to code a grf that imposes a minimum distance between an airport and a town?
11:16:06  <Bjarni> you mean copy the whole file and then delete the stuff I didn't want to move?
11:16:25  <Maedhros> yup. i did it when splitting signs_gui.cpp from graph_gui.cpp
11:16:28  <Bjarni> well, I can do that now. Reverting the change and then do it right
11:16:49  <Maedhros> Brianetta: i wouldn't like to say categorically "no", but i don't think so
11:17:37  <Brianetta> Maedhros: I just think that reserving huge rectangles of prime city-centre space from as early as 1920 is a tad bonkers.  Huge airports should be out of town.
11:17:52  <Brianetta> I'd like to see only small and commuter in the city.
11:17:55  <peter1138> yeah, like heathrow
11:17:57  <peter1138> um
11:18:13  <Brianetta> Heathrow was out of town once upon a time (:
11:18:36  <Brianetta> It's at least 20 tiles from Trafalgar Square.
11:18:39  <Darkvater> Bjarni: yes like that
11:18:53  <peter1138> tiles, hehe
11:20:20  <Bjarni> bbl
11:20:27  <Bjarni> I will fix this when I get get back
11:21:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8367 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix: [Graphs] Don't try to use the same value to mean something is invalid for both an int64 and a uint.
11:21:53  <Darkvater> Maedhros: will there be any features when you're done? :)
11:22:23  <Maedhros> hopefully :)
11:22:44  <Maedhros> i'd like to make so graphs don't have to symmetrical about the x axis for a start
11:22:56  <Maedhros> *have to be
11:22:56  <Darkvater> nice, nice :)
11:27:04  <Brianetta> Hey
11:27:11  <Brianetta> I have a dedicated server feature request
11:27:15  <Brianetta> and it's kind of serious
11:27:26  <Brianetta> the ability to fine players
11:27:33  <Brianetta> and perhaps to give grants
11:28:24  <Brianetta> I wonder if a server-side only patch could do this...
11:28:35  <peter1138> no
11:28:57  <peter1138> all clients would need to know about it
11:29:39  <Brianetta> How are clients informed of money transfers?
11:29:44  <peter1138> by a command
11:29:52  <Brianetta> Couldn't such a command be sent by the server?
11:29:57  <peter1138> but that takes from one player and gives to another
11:30:05  <Brianetta> Well, I could do that
11:30:07  <peter1138> it would be a different, or a change to the, command
11:30:12  <Brianetta> redistribute the welth (:
11:30:25  <Brianetta> Brianetta the communist dictator
11:30:25  <peter1138> i wonder how many grants roboboy would need
11:30:42  <Brianetta> He could have all of shader's money
11:30:58  <peter1138> i don't know how he manages to go bankrupt so often
11:31:00  <Brianetta> Shader is a Portuguese player who gets rich then fails to respect the environment
11:31:05  <peter1138> :(
11:31:49  <Brianetta> If I could redistribute the money of players like that...
11:31:52  <Brianetta> that'd be mint
11:32:20  <Brianetta> I might look into it
11:32:28  <Brianetta> It would be neat for conflict resolution
11:32:47  <Brianetta> One player bullies another, then finds all his money went to them.
11:33:01  <Brianetta> I'd have to polish up my Muahahahaha!
11:33:33  <peter1138> heh
11:34:14  <Brianetta> I could fail to do bounds checking and bankrupt them, too
11:34:59  <Brianetta> Is it possible for spectators to give money?
11:35:08  <Brianetta> I might have to read the source or something
11:35:19  <peter1138> no
11:35:27  <Darkvater> thank god no
11:35:43  <peter1138> you can't not to bounds checking either
11:35:48  <Brianetta> This feature is, obviously, going to be such a blatant hack
11:36:08  <Ailure> hmmm
11:36:10  <Brianetta> but I promise not to implement it during RC testing (:
11:36:14  <Ailure> anyone who messed with trains
11:36:19  <Ailure> what's the internal maxspeed of them
11:36:21  <Ailure> :p
11:36:27  <peter1138> unless you change the clients, you're restricted to whatever a normal player can do
11:36:28  <Ailure> or rather
11:36:30  <Ailure> how fast would they go
11:36:39  <peter1138> so you can't take money from a loan
11:37:10  <Brianetta> right
11:37:17  <Brianetta> that's fair
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11:37:35  <Brianetta> players with a loan are hardly in a positoin to be fined for flattening mountains
11:37:50  <peter1138> if you want to fine someone, you'd have to give the money to someone else
11:37:53  <Brianetta> Yes
11:38:00  <Brianetta> Divvied up between the remainder
11:38:25  <Brianetta> with an option of compensation
11:38:32  <Brianetta> to pay for the flooded station, etc (:
11:38:35  <peter1138> you could implement your own commands and force all clients to disconnect, heh
11:38:44  <Ailure> hmm
11:38:48  <Ailure> heh
11:39:04  <Ailure> if the game couod automatically detect whoever started a flood and fine ;p
11:39:05  <Brianetta> well, it'd be console commands which send a sequence of regular commands
11:39:09  <Ailure> but that can be a small nightmare to program
11:39:18  <Brianetta> Ailure: It'd be down to the admin to determine
11:39:23  <Ailure> I actually had that happening
11:39:32  <Brianetta> I can usually tell by looking at the local authority ratings
11:39:33  <Ailure> not much of a problem tohugh
11:39:36  <Ailure> I was the admin after all
11:39:37  <Ailure> :)
11:39:49  <Ailure> told him to stop
11:39:51  <Ailure> that's about it
11:40:07  <Brianetta> I told a guy to stop yesterday, but he'd already flattened a mountain range
11:40:15  <Ailure> well
11:40:17  <Brianetta> another was flooding artificial islands
11:40:21  <Brianetta> but he got banned
11:40:23  <Ailure> a friend of mine got slightly bored at building railroads
11:40:27  <Ailure> so he flattened a part of the map
11:40:34  <Ailure> it actually winded up looking neat looking
11:40:44  <Ailure> and there wasn't any industries in that region I wanted to use anyway
11:40:48  <Brianetta> It pissed off the other 6 players, was my problem
11:40:50  <Ailure> and the ones that were there
11:40:52  <Ailure> were already connected
11:41:06  <Ailure> well
11:41:10  <Ailure> As a rule of thumb
11:41:15  <Ailure> if you made a artifical island
11:41:20  <Ailure> be sure to make "artifical" dams as well
11:41:22  <Ailure> that you own
11:41:23  <Ailure> I guess
11:41:48  <Brianetta> Sea level is dangerous - especially as players can build water anywhere
11:41:57  <Ailure> sometimes I use road for that
11:42:00  <Ailure> as it looks nice as well
11:42:04  <Ailure> with the edges
11:42:08  <Brianetta> yes
11:42:09  <Ailure> since it looks artificial
11:42:26  <Brianetta> Some players used canal
11:42:39  <Brianetta> until one player found out htat building a buoy on a canal tile turned it into floodwater
11:43:03  <Ailure> terraforming should be more expensive anyway
11:43:14  <Ailure> it's ridicolus
11:43:16  <Brianetta> yes
11:43:20  <Ailure> how it's cheaper to flat something
11:43:22  <Ailure> than building a tunnel
11:43:25  <Ailure> in a few situations
11:43:40  <Brianetta> although when I suggested that on #tycoon half an hour ago there were vocal opponents
11:43:55  <Ailure> meh
11:43:59  <Ailure> any controversional change
11:44:02  <Ailure> should be a patch setting
11:44:42  <Brianetta> Somebody should to a search/replace on all the openttd files
11:44:43  <Ailure> I used to be negative against electrical rails at first
11:44:45  <Brianetta> change patch to option
11:44:46  <Ailure> for example
11:44:52  <Ailure> but I winded up liking it after using it
11:44:54  <Ailure> for awhile
11:45:09  <Ailure> yeah I know
11:45:12  <Ailure> I said it before as well
11:45:21  <Brianetta> Perhaps on the 1.0 roadmap (:
11:45:23  <Ailure> the patch window is just a remain from TTDpatch
11:45:43  <Ailure> it makes sense in TTDpatch as TTDpatch is essentially the orginal game hacked
11:45:45  <Ailure> but not in openTTD
11:46:05  <Ailure> I think I suggested
11:46:07  <Ailure> "Advanced options"
11:46:27  <Ailure>  thoose options can be confusing for a newbie after all
11:46:32  <Brianetta> All the options and difficulty settings should be combined, I think
11:46:40  <Brianetta> and a new set of difficulty presets defined
11:46:40  <Ailure> especially the vehicles part
11:46:46  <Ailure> yes
11:46:54  <Ailure> the orginal difficulties are kinda skewed in a way
11:47:01  <Noldo> Brianetta: map things could be in the generaton screen
11:47:03  <Ailure> I don't like how the landscape is related to the difficulty
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11:47:17  <Ailure> like
11:47:20  <Ailure> if Iw ant a easy game
11:47:21  <Brianetta> Noldo: Could be, and are (:
11:47:23  <Ailure> but mountanious region
11:47:26  <Ailure> I have to go for custom
11:47:35  <Ailure> infact I never played any of the preset difficulties
11:47:39  <Ailure> and I doubt anyone really did
11:47:54  <Ailure> I tried to, but I wind up changing something halfway in the game
11:48:10  <Ailure> and some things makes sense in the orginal game
11:48:13  <Ailure> but not in openTTD
11:48:17  <Ailure> such as breakdown
11:48:25  <Ailure> normal works fine with the orginal limits
11:48:35  <Ailure> but when you have 400 trains on a network, it's almost impossible to have it on
11:48:52  <Ailure> if not just very annoying
11:49:20  * Brianetta nods
11:51:29  <Ailure> hmm
11:51:35  <Ailure> I wonder if I have it too dark in my apartment
11:51:41  <Ailure> I feel down alot lately
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11:51:44  <Ailure> but I have no reason why
11:51:55  <Ailure> I think I hae some kind of winter depression D:
11:52:18  <Ailure> It feels better when opened up the curtains so more light would come in
11:52:56  <Ailure> Not down in the emo way
11:52:59  <Ailure> just slight apathy stuff :p
11:54:11  <Ailure> ah heh
11:54:16  <Ailure> now I feel dumb Brianetta
11:54:26  <Ailure> for some reason I thought the C++ combatility was already done D:
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11:54:59  * Ailure stretches
11:55:09  *** bubersson [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:55:12  <Ailure> Guess I get around installing the compilers and stuff now when I have some free time
11:55:28  <Brianetta> Ailure: Either done or nearly done
11:55:32  <Ailure> ah
11:55:39  <Ailure> Still I need to play around with C++ a bit
11:55:39  <Brianetta> To be honest, I don't read *every* commit message
11:55:51  <Ailure> I only programmed in Java
11:55:57  <Ailure> but C++ is very similar from what I seen
11:56:03  <Ailure> and I understand the code pretty well when I see it
11:56:28  <Ailure> hmm
11:56:38  <Ailure> what's the preferable way of compiling openTTD under Windows?
11:56:46  <Ailure> Cygwin?
11:57:28  <Brianetta> Akalamanaia: to bad you cant..surrender your assets to other company
11:57:31  <Brianetta> Akalamanaia: like the AI does when it goes bankrupt
11:57:36  <Brianetta> (frommy server)
11:57:51  <Brianetta> Ailure: Darkvater uses regular Windows compilers, etc
11:57:56  <Brianetta> and he's the lead dev atm
11:58:10  <Ailure> such as visual C++?
11:58:22  <Ailure> I tend to prefer using open source alternatives, but whatever that works
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11:59:02  <Ailure>
11:59:07  <Ailure> heh I followed this guide once
11:59:21  <Ailure> didn't get it to work due to the project file D:
11:59:21  <Darkvater> Ailure: use VS2005 Express
11:59:26  <Darkvater> it'll work just fine and is free
11:59:54  <Ailure> I give it a try then
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12:03:37  <Ailure> xfgg
12:03:44  <Ailure> stupid sourceforg
12:04:47  <Ailure> it keeps making me download from a mirror that is down
12:04:55  <Ailure> until I enter the files page manually
12:05:02  <Ailure> and I know from earlier today that the belgium server is down
12:05:15  *** tosse [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:05:17  <Ailure> why it goes for belgium when germany is closer is beyond me as well
12:06:04  <peter1138> hmm?
12:06:24  <Ailure> I
12:06:33  <Ailure> I was downloading tightVNC earlier from sourceforge
12:06:45  <Ailure> and it thought that the belgium server was a good mirror as well
12:06:48  <Ailure> when it was down D:
12:09:49  <Ailure> hmm
12:09:55  <Ailure> Visual is very similar to netbeans
12:09:57  <Ailure> which I use for Java
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12:15:25  <Ailure> hmm
12:15:32  <Ailure> apart from pointers I understand most of the code
12:17:04  <Darkvater> hmm anyone know how I can forward ports with SSH from X to Z when I connect from Y to Z?
12:17:34  <valhallasw`gone> Darkvater: just normal port forwarding; use instead of localhost:80
12:18:12  <Darkvater> local?
12:18:21  <Darkvater> -L 443:host:443 ?
12:18:31  <valhallasw`gone> yes
12:18:43  <Darkvater> good cause that doesn't work
12:18:49  <valhallasw`gone> right.
12:18:53  <valhallasw`gone> try using putty :P
12:19:08  <Darkvater> I mean I did -R 443, cause -L 443 is only root
12:19:14  <valhallasw`gone> erm.
12:19:25  <valhallasw`gone> -R is remote
12:19:39  <Darkvater> ssh -L
12:19:42  <valhallasw`gone> which means port 443 on your server will route to host via you current computer
12:19:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8368 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: [Graphs] Rename the variables relating to whether datasets should be drawn, and use HASBIT for testing against them.
12:19:52  <valhallasw`gone> that should work
12:19:58  <Darkvater> tfarago@arrakis:~> svn co .
12:19:58  <Darkvater> svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/repos/unisource'
12:19:58  <Darkvater> svn: PROPFIND of '/repos/unisource': 501 Method PROPFIND is not defined in RFC 2068 and is not supported by the Servlet API  (
12:20:01  <Darkvater> :(
12:20:28  <valhallasw`gone> why are you routing that server via ssh?
12:20:48  <Darkvater> cause outside the uni domain it only works through VPN
12:20:56  <valhallasw`gone> ah
12:20:58  <Darkvater> and I can't set up that damn vpn for the love of god on linux
12:21:10  <valhallasw`gone> why ssh to your server instead of to tin? :P
12:21:25  <Darkvater> cause I want the repository locally :)
12:21:30  <valhallasw`gone> ...
12:21:39  <valhallasw`gone> ssh
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12:24:41  <Ailure> The direct-x SDK is x-box hyuge
12:24:42  <Ailure> D:
12:25:00  <Ailure> then X-box is based on direct-x so heh lol
12:27:56  <Ailure> ...
12:28:07  <Ailure> the Direct-X SDK comes in the form of a Winzip self-extractor?
12:28:13  <Ailure> wow
12:29:16  <Ailure> well it's setup
12:29:17  <Ailure> but still
12:29:36  <Darkvater> Ailure: you only need a few files from there though :)
12:29:53  <Darkvater> I think I have a 1-2 MB zip with all the directX files openttd needs
12:30:08  <Brianetta> Akalamanaia is on the brink of bankruptcy on my server
12:30:10  <Brianetta> It's amazing
12:30:28  <Ailure> heh
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12:30:42  <Ailure> Maybe I should abort the installation of Direct-X SDK and just obtain thoose files
12:30:55  <Ailure> As I have no intent on creating direct-x applications on my own
12:31:46  <Ailure> XNA
12:31:47  <Ailure> haha
12:31:50  <Ailure> sounds like a trolling group
12:32:00  <Ailure> I know what it is, but still
12:32:17  <Darkvater> lol
12:35:04  <Ailure> hmm
12:35:13  <Ailure> gonna take a walk and grab lunch :p
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12:41:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8369 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: [Graphs] Rename include_neg and adj_height to more descriptive names, and add some more comments.
12:41:36  <Maedhros> heh, mauve is a terrible player colour for graphs - it's practically invisible...
12:48:03  <Brianetta> Stealth colour
12:48:10  <Brianetta> It's like playing as blue in RTS games
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12:48:21  <Brianetta> so your boats can't be seen at sea on the map
12:49:06  *** ufoun-- [] has joined #openttd
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13:10:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r8370 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Revert (r8363): the autoreplace GUI move cleared the file history
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13:23:44  <Brianetta> Gradual loading hurts profits on stations that make non-full-load stops at several cargo stations
13:23:53  <Brianetta> on trains, even
13:23:59  <Brianetta> because all wagons get some cargo
13:24:21  <Brianetta> and all wagons, if not filled, have their "from" location changed to a closer stationon the way
13:26:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r8371 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs):
13:26:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: [autoreplace GUI] moved the autoreplace GUI to a file of it's own
13:26:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  Note: it's the same as r8363, only this time the svn history of autoreplace should be preserved
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13:34:34  <Ailure> 3>LINK : fatal error LNK1104: cannot open file 'dxguid.lib'
13:34:45  <Ailure> ...I must have done some error with configuring Direct-X now D:
13:34:50  <Ailure> kinda have a idea what as well even
13:34:58  * Ailure attempts to fix it
13:36:29  <Ailure> yep
13:36:54  <Ailure> didn't see the x86 and x64 subfolders in the libary folder of direct-x SDK
13:37:11  <Ailure> fixed it now
13:37:12  <hylje> :o
13:37:14  <Ailure> and it works D:
13:37:16  <hylje> omg, dx
13:37:20  <Ailure> well it compiles
13:37:24  <Ailure> I hadn't actually tested the program
13:37:27  <Ailure> *copies data files*
13:38:54  <Ailure> ok this is embrassing
13:39:02  <Ailure> I have no idea where the compiled game is
13:40:14  <Ailure> oh
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13:40:32  <Ailure> solved it now kinda
13:40:38  <Ailure> still that was a wierd location
13:41:38  <Ailure> openTTD norev
13:41:38  <Ailure> nice
13:41:39  <Ailure> xD
13:46:28  <Ailure> studying code right now
13:47:28  <Ailure> hehe the map accessors
13:49:32  <hylje> omg
13:50:01  <Ailure> what? <<
13:58:49  <Tefad> are there weird clipping things going on with the giantic airport?
14:00:08  <Ailure> yes
14:00:20  <Ailure> certain aircraft can get clipping issues
14:00:26  <Tefad> ok cool.
14:00:27  <Ailure> even on a big airport
14:00:38  <Ailure> usually newGRF aircraft from what I seen though
14:00:53  <Tefad> this is with the inbuilt concorde look-alike
14:01:16  <Tefad> but i am using UK renewal grf
14:01:22  <Ailure> shouldn't matter though
14:01:38  <Tefad> just graphical i assume
14:01:45  <Ailure> I think I do recall seeing clipping issues with the orginal concorde
14:01:52  <Ailure> but it's been awhile since I played with the orginal vehicles
14:01:59  <Tefad> ah : )
14:02:14  <Tefad> this is the first time i've really played ottd in a while
14:02:19  <Tefad> newgrf stuff is interesting
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14:02:48  <Tefad> i sort of like the different levels of train cars
14:03:00  <Ailure> heh
14:03:07  <Ailure> it was a pain before autoreplace for vans came around though
14:03:09  <Tefad> and speeds etc
14:03:10  <Ailure> but then I liked it
14:03:12  <Ailure> yeah
14:03:14  <Ailure> it's awesome
14:03:27  <Tefad> there's auto replace for the rail cars?
14:03:34  <Tefad> O_O !
14:03:48  *** scia [] has joined #openttd
14:03:53  <Tefad> HOLY
14:04:02  <SpComb> moly
14:04:10  <Tefad> that could have saved me several.. minutes of time : (
14:04:23  <Digitalfox> Auto replace for wagons how??
14:04:34  <Tefad> where it says "Replacing: "
14:04:35  <Tefad> click.
14:05:09  <Digitalfox> and?
14:05:26  <Tefad> do you know how to get to the replace train dialog?
14:05:53  <Tefad> eh, i guess everything is a "window" except error messages or text input
14:06:06  <Digitalfox> yes and i use it, just didn't know wagons could also be replace
14:06:11  <Tefad> yup.
14:06:22  <Tefad> ah, the game says "cars" for me
14:06:39  <Tefad> ah ha.
14:06:50  <Tefad> wagons for original, cars for US
14:07:11  <Digitalfox> later i'll give it shot.. Thanks for the tip
14:07:24  <Digitalfox> *a shot
14:07:35  <Ailure> xD
14:07:45  <Ailure> the autoreplace GUI can be a little bit confusing for newbies I guess
14:07:59  <Tefad> newbs?
14:08:16  <Tefad> newbs to that UI perhaps : )
14:08:40  <Tefad> i've been playing ottd for a few cvs/svn replacements now
14:08:56  <Tefad> and ttd since i had a pentium 60MHz
14:09:19  <Tefad> or was it just tto back then.. it had a demo
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14:29:54  <Darkvater> hmm
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14:30:46  <Darkvater> what should we or will we do about the global list 'new vehicles' button? Allow building vehicles from there or not but only change the string?
14:31:31  <peter1138> hmm?
14:32:01  <Darkvater> you know "vehicle list" window, new vehicles
14:32:09  <peter1138> yeah
14:32:19  <Rubidium> make it available vehicles (instead of new)?
14:32:34  <Darkvater> or only change it to
14:32:36  <Darkvater> he
14:32:43  <Darkvater> what Rubidium said now and you suggested before peter1138 ?
14:32:52  <peter1138> uh huh
14:32:55  <Darkvater> although I don't think new players will understand the difference
14:34:43  <Darkvater> << don't you just love the standard answer?
14:34:54  <Darkvater> people are brainwashed by stupid games that need a reinstall to work
14:35:26  <peter1138> heh
14:35:36  <Ailure> [15:09] <Tefad> newbs to that UI perhaps : )
14:35:45  <Ailure> We can't alienate everyone but veterans to the game
14:35:46  <Ailure> :p
14:36:27  <peter1138> why not? :)
14:36:47  <Ailure> becuse I keep getting new people intrested
14:36:59  <Ailure>  think I have inspired at least more than ten players into getting t oplay openTTD D:
14:37:19  <Darkvater> :)
14:39:58  <Ailure> openTTD is quite steep for new players though
14:40:07  <Tefad> yup.
14:40:12  <Ailure> Sometimes I ask myself if I should do some tutorial videos and put them up somewhere
14:40:18  <Ailure> maybe on youtube or something
14:40:27  <Ailure> like the orginal tutorial videos on TTD
14:40:31  <Ailure> but expanded a bit
14:47:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r8372 /trunk/src/network/ (core/config.h core/udp.cpp network.cpp): -Fix (8361): NUM_LANDSCAPE comes (via some detour) from openttd.h, which does not exist in the masterserver/updater.
14:48:18  <caladan> Ailure: that videos would be nice, for i had to show how to play to many new players....
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14:51:22  <Ailure> and players confuse things
14:51:23  <Ailure> I mean
14:51:23  <Ailure>
14:51:26  <Ailure> just look at that
14:51:47  <Ailure> the concept of a depot might be simple for someoen who played the game for over a decade
14:51:55  <Ailure> but for newbies it might not be as clear
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14:53:45  <caladan> I guess that that button could be hmm, made invisible
14:54:01  <caladan> so it isn't even shown...
14:54:56  <Tefad> bug? buoy isn't listed in station ship roster
14:55:10  <Tefad> (in mini order list)
14:55:23  <Ailure> that's becuse
14:55:28  <Ailure> bouys are owned by nobody
14:55:44  <Tefad> ok, but an arrow is still drawn if that is present destination
14:55:46  <Ailure> I don't know the proper name for "neutral" stations
14:56:07  <Ailure> arrow?
14:56:09  <Tefad> the oilfield is listed as destination.
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14:56:20  <Tefad> arrow is drawn to signify current destination
14:56:44  <Tefad> when it is a buoy, it draws arrow with no words after
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14:57:35  <Ailure> hmm
14:57:37  <Ailure> oh
14:57:52  <Ailure> I hadn't seen that
14:57:58  <Ailure> then I hadn't paid attention to my ships much
14:58:05  <Ailure> hmm
14:58:08  <Ailure> it dosen't do that on my game
14:58:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r8373 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Codechange: remove some obsolete MSVC6 compatability defines
14:58:29  <Tefad> it lists buoy in the mini order list?
14:58:32  <Ailure> yes
14:58:39  <Tefad> weird.
14:58:46  <Tefad> i'll keep an eye on it
14:58:48  <Ailure> I'm using openTTD 0.5.0 RC4
14:58:51  <Ailure> though
14:58:56  <Ailure> what version are you uisng?
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14:59:01  <Tefad> r8296
14:59:05  <Ailure> ah
14:59:10  <Ailure> no diea what revision I have
14:59:14  <Ailure> but it's probably the latest
14:59:22  <Ailure> as I grabbed it from the SVN and compiled it just a hour ago or so
14:59:27  <Tefad> ah ha
14:59:33  <Tefad> mine is a day or two stale
14:59:49  <Tefad> it usually tells you revision number in title bar or main screen
14:59:51  <Rubidium> Ailure: you got 0.5.0-RC4 from the SVN?
14:59:57  <Tefad> heh
14:59:58  <Ailure> no
15:00:03  <Ailure> the uhm
15:00:04  <Ailure> trunk version
15:00:08  <Ailure> for some reason
15:00:10  <Tefad> also, about window.
15:00:12  <Ailure> it says norev after compiling it
15:00:22  <Ailure> in the openTTD title bar
15:00:38  <Rubidium> yup, there is no MSVC subversion integration
15:00:46  <Ailure> ah
15:00:49  <Ailure> I see
15:00:52  <Ailure> it dosen't really bother me though
15:01:10  <Ailure> I only used MSVC becuse it seemed to be the most simple approch for me
15:01:12  <Rubidium> getting the (correct) version in MSVC would require some hackery and people to install the command line version of subversion
15:01:19  <Ailure> and that doing it with DevC++
15:01:23  <Ailure> is asking for a headache
15:01:34  <Ailure> I tried it
15:01:37  <Ailure> and it didn't work all the way
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15:01:42  <Tefad> meh
15:01:54  <Tefad> someone should hack sdl into SFU
15:02:07  <Ailure> hmm
15:02:14  <Ailure> for some reason terrain generation is really much slower
15:02:25  <Ailure> for the trunk version I compiled
15:02:28  <Tefad> larger map?
15:02:40  <Ailure> 256x256 shouldn't take so much time for generating
15:02:45  <Tefad> heh
15:02:47  <Ailure> especially with my computer specs
15:02:48  <Tefad> debug infos?
15:03:05  <Ailure> now if I knew how to do that xD
15:03:13  <Rubidium> possible issues: debug build, high water level, rough terrain, very hilly terrain, ...
15:03:18  <Darkvater> Ailure: debug version is reallllly slow
15:03:20  <Ailure> oh
15:03:22  <Ailure> debug build
15:03:23  <Ailure> yeah haha
15:03:26  <Ailure> it's the debug build I use
15:03:28  <Tefad> : )
15:03:28  <Ailure> I know that
15:03:30  <Ailure> and suspected it even
15:03:41  <Tefad> i turn that crap off until i find a bug
15:03:43  <Ailure> but i'm not going to use this for serious play
15:03:48  <Ailure> only for me to screw around with the source
15:03:48  <Darkvater> that's not meant for playing :)
15:03:52  <Tefad> i remember once turning on debug fixed the bug and i was miffed.
15:03:56  <Ailure> yeah of course
15:03:57  <Ailure> heh
15:04:01  <Darkvater> to screw around the serouce I just make 64x64 maps
15:04:17  <Tefad> thems tiny maps
15:04:26  <Tefad> like.. two cities
15:04:27  <Ailure> hmm
15:04:29  <Ailure> the airport tool
15:04:33  <Ailure> lacks the landscape button now?
15:04:47  <Tefad> i think they all do now
15:04:49  <Ailure> dosen't make sense to have it removed for me
15:04:56  <Ailure> oh
15:04:58  <Ailure> I see
15:05:02  <Ailure> there was a landscape button added
15:05:04  <Ailure> didn't see that
15:05:12  <Ailure> oh
15:05:15  <Ailure> it's been there for awhile
15:05:17  <Ailure> I never used it
15:05:18  <Ailure> xD
15:05:19  <Tefad> i just have the auto thing turned on so i get landscape
15:05:20  <Darkvater> hmm
15:05:20  <Rubidium> Ailure: that landscape button has been there for as long as I can remember
15:05:29  <Darkvater> quickly; how do I check the CPU temp in lnux/
15:05:41  <Ailure> yeah but for some reason that' ssomething I never noticed
15:05:45  <Tefad> cat /proc/acpi/THM.. depends on kernel.
15:05:52  <Tefad> use tab completion.
15:06:15  <Ailure> also
15:06:32  <Ailure> hmm
15:06:34  <Tefad> my bad..
15:06:37  <Darkvater> hmm don't have THM
15:06:44  <Tefad> /proc/acpi/thermal..
15:06:48  <Ailure> I probably do some "Hello world" thing in openTTD later
15:06:53  <Darkvater> thermal_zone
15:06:57  <Darkvater> but that's an empty dir
15:07:02  <Ailure> looking through the source gives me a good understanding of the inner workings of this game
15:07:12  <Tefad> then your kernel blows chunks. do not pass go do not collect 0
15:07:29  <Tefad> perhaps modprobe some things?
15:07:47  <Tefad> hmm 24C seems a little chilly
15:08:10  <Tefad> but again, my server is only running ssh, screen, irc, and an IM client.
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15:12:16  <Ailure> heh
15:12:17  <Ailure> lovely
15:12:24  <Ailure> for no erason I let the AI play wild
15:12:35  <Ailure> cute how realistic acceleration causes problems for the computer
15:12:36  <Tefad> the AI makes things go boom here
15:12:40  <Ailure> while human prefers it on
15:12:48  <Ailure> well
15:12:52  <Ailure> the AI seems to be not bugged anymore
15:12:58  <Tefad> in the form of segfaults
15:12:59  <Ailure> or maybe it's bugged on bigger maps
15:13:01  <Ailure> oh
15:13:03  <Ailure> well
15:13:04  <Tefad> maybe that's it
15:13:13  <Ailure> for some reason
15:13:19  <Ailure> the AI gotten more stupid in openTTD
15:13:22  <Ailure> compared to the orginal TT
15:13:24  <Ailure> or rather
15:13:28  <Ailure> sometimes I see it building a line
15:13:31  <Ailure> then demolish it
15:13:36  <Ailure> and fail at demolishing it competly
15:13:40  <Tefad> haha
15:13:44  <Ailure> while it didn't have that problem in TTD
15:13:57  <Ailure> I could go through a whole game
15:13:59  <Ailure> with a AI surviving
15:14:05  <Ailure> in openTTD they go bankrupt rather quickly
15:14:12  <Ailure> the AI weren't smart
15:14:16  <Ailure> but they managed to survive at least
15:14:20  <Tefad> i think the AI is busted. completely
15:14:29  <Tefad> most people just sandbox in ottd anyway
15:14:47  <Ailure> I like seein gother companies around personally
15:14:57  <Ailure> and there's some annoying aspects
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15:15:02  <Ailure> such as reinventing the wheel AI
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15:15:07  <Ailure> so you can see a huge mess of asphalt
15:15:16  <Ailure> if alot of AI players decide to use road on the same place
15:15:28  <raimar3> Ailure: I'm working on makeing the ai better
15:15:28  <Ailure> since the concept of reusing existing roads is beyond the AI
15:15:29  <Tefad> hehehe
15:15:37  <raimar3> and the improvements are quite visible
15:15:39  <Ailure> hehe I heard someone was
15:15:44  <Ailure> oh
15:15:47  <Tefad> once i put diagonal tracks all around something the AI wanted
15:15:47  <Ailure> such as?
15:15:58  <raimar3> they make money
15:16:01  <Tefad> i had way too much fun watching the AI fail miserably
15:16:04  <Ailure> one improvment they could be
15:16:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> ~> cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THRM/temperature
15:16:07  <Ailure> is smoother curves
15:16:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> temperature:             49 C
15:16:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> says my kernel
15:16:17  <raimar3> and at 2000 they have put tracks everywhere on the map
15:16:23  <Tefad> that's slightly toasty
15:16:35  <Tefad> your CPU should be at high load
15:16:47  <Ailure> well heh
15:16:51  <Ailure> there's some things with the AI
15:16:57  <Ailure> that seems obvious to optimize with it
15:17:02  <Ailure> without messing with it too much
15:17:02  <Darkvater> my cpu is around 60 when idle
15:17:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> Durchschnittslast: 1,36, 1,24, 1,19
15:17:11  <raimar3> the tracks are also MUCH straighter then the existing AI
15:17:13  <Ailure> although longterm it's probably better to rewrite it from scratch
15:17:20  <Ailure> heh
15:17:24  <Tefad> Darkvater: that's not very nice for your CPU.
15:17:28  <Ailure> the track dosen't only need to be straigther
15:17:32  <Ailure> but whenever it creates curves
15:17:33  <Darkvater> my father's is around 70-80
15:17:37  <Ailure> the curves should be smooth
15:17:43  <Darkvater> but, pfft it's worked for years
15:17:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> my cpu is around 70% idle
15:18:00  <Tefad> some CPUs break down at 80-90C (or less)
15:18:01  <raimar3> this is more a matter of finetuning the penalties
15:18:10  <Ailure> depends on what i'm doing here for my CPU
15:18:16  <Tefad> usually 100C is the breaking point of many CPUs
15:18:24  <Ailure> openTTD 0.5.0 RC4 takes almost no CPU time
15:18:27  <Ailure> well in percentages :)
15:18:28  <raimar3> but so far I didn't motivation to look at this
15:18:35  <Ailure> windows show it as 0%
15:18:39  <Ailure> in the task manager
15:18:41  <Tefad> my laptop can hit 60C no problem, then 70C at high usage
15:18:54  <raimar3> under linux SDL eats up the most cycles
15:18:56  <Ailure> and that's in a early midgame session
15:19:04  <Ailure> where I slacked the last 20 years or so
15:19:09  <Ailure> so there isn't as many trains as there could be
15:19:21  <Ailure> played it together with a friend
15:19:40  <Tefad> i'm running 512x512 with minimal CPU impact
15:19:51  <Tefad> i turn off details and palette cycling
15:19:54  <Ailure> oh me too
15:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> hmm... kaffeine uses 18% CPU just while recording
15:20:04  <Ailure> then I could play at the biggest map size on my old computer
15:20:13  <Ailure> map generation and autosave got annoying
15:20:21  <Tefad> yeah . .
15:20:23  <Ailure> and there was too much on the mapo
15:20:36  <Ailure> I would enjoy really big maps more
15:20:36  <Ailure> if the map generator didn't place so many industries and towns
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15:20:45  <Ailure> I want very low amount of towns and industries D:
15:20:57  <Tefad> run scenario generator to make a map
15:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> i want industries placed in towns
15:21:01  <Tefad> place your own towns.
15:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> not in the middle of nowhere
15:21:16  <Darkvater> ha it works
15:21:18  <Darkvater> CPU Temp:  +69.5°C  (high =   +95°C, hyst =   +80°C)          (beep)
15:21:29  <Ailure> Tefad: I have done that
15:21:34  <Ailure> but I rather see it done automatically
15:21:35  <Ailure> :p
15:21:37  <Darkvater> so only 70
15:21:49  <Tefad> that's quite high for a desktop
15:22:05  <Ailure> 70 celsius?
15:22:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> Darkvater: could use a fan on the case
15:22:08  <Ailure> Depends on what you're doing
15:22:10  <Maedhros> is there anyone around who can test whether openttd compiles with this patch for me?
15:22:11  <Darkvater> it's always been high. I have an AMD TB 1.3
15:22:16  <Maedhros> especially people who aren't running linux
15:22:19  <Tefad> oh, babahaha
15:22:20  <Darkvater> those are hotheads
15:22:35  <Ailure> I think you can go up to 100 C without problems
15:22:36  <Tefad> no idea why there's two b's there
15:22:41  <Ailure> and even past that
15:22:45  <Tefad> tbreds crazy.
15:22:53  <Ailure> my graphics card have a threshold at 110 C
15:23:04  <Tefad> cook on your CPUs.
15:23:14  <Ailure> It's 54 celsius
15:23:19  <Ailure> but it's not used much anyway for now
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15:23:30  <Ailure> most of my games tear on the CPU and memory more than GPU
15:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> my previous PC ran on 70°C when idle, and the mainboard blew up after a while
15:23:38  <Ailure> which is a bit of a shame, as it's a high end GPU xD
15:23:45  <Tefad> heh
15:23:50  <Tefad> i have a Ti4400
15:23:55  <Tefad> it doesn't do much of anything
15:24:03  <Tefad> every now and then i'll play ut2k4
15:24:38  <Ailure> 2 GB of memory, 2,61 GHZ 64 X2 dual
15:25:00  <Ailure> Geforce 7900 GTX
15:25:18  <Ailure> I forgot how much memory it have again
15:25:35  <Ailure> ah
15:25:37  <Ailure> 512 mb
15:25:48  <Ailure> quite a jump
15:25:54  <Ailure> considering my last graphic card were something like
15:25:58  <Ailure> 64 or 128 mb
15:25:58  <peter1138> has
15:26:03  <peter1138> are you bjarni or something? :p
15:26:04  <Ailure> forgot exact amount
15:26:11  <Ailure> me?
15:26:16  <peter1138> yeah
15:26:21  <Ailure> Isn't Bjarni scandinavian?
15:26:24  <Ailure> I live in South Sweden
15:26:29  <Ailure> and live rather close to denmark
15:26:31  <Brianetta> Bankruptcies galore!
15:26:36  <Brianetta> My server is good again
15:26:45  <peter1138> that'll probably be it
15:26:50  <Ailure> so I probably do some common scandinavian mistakes at English
15:26:51  <Ailure> :p
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15:40:42  <Bjarni> ohh I got highlighted
15:40:50  <hylje> Bjarni Bjarni Bjarni Bjarni
15:40:57  <Bjarni> and then nobody wanted to say anything to me :s
15:40:58  <hylje> You Just Got Highlighted!
15:41:16  <Bjarni> hylje highlight test
15:42:30  <Ailure> heh
15:42:40  <Ailure> hightligning is fun
15:47:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8374 /trunk/src/ (graph_gui.cpp stdafx.h):
15:47:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix (r8367): LLONG_MAX isn't always defined, and INT64_MAX describes the
15:47:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: required value better anyway. However, INT64_MAX comes from stdint.h which
15:47:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: doesn't seem to exist on MSVC or MorphOS, so it's defined manually for them.
15:48:16  <Maedhros> aren't random incompatibilities fun?
15:48:39  <Darkvater> gaah, I bundled the wrong dbghelp.dll with the RC4 binaries o_O
15:48:46  <Darkvater> they don't run on win 95
15:52:26  <DJGummikuh> oh
15:52:39  <DJGummikuh> how many are really playing on win95 still?
15:52:55  <ln-> who's in charge here?
15:52:58  <Darkvater> a few
15:53:03  <ln-> $ ./configure
15:53:04  <ln-> ./configure: syntax error at line 520: `(' unexpected
15:53:27  <ln-> i suspect that is because configure begins with: #!/bin/sh
15:53:40  <ln-> now why the hell does it begin with that if it doesn't run with sh?
15:53:43  <Darkvater> Rubidium already fixed that
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15:54:16  <ln-> when?
15:54:25  <ln-> i took a clean checkout just a minute ago.
15:54:56  <Darkvater> or well there was a recent change to it
15:55:39  <ln->   5693  truelight #!/bin/sh
15:56:05  <Maedhros> if [ -n "$custom_lang_dir" ] && [ "$custom_lang_dir" != "$(OSXAPP)/Contents/Lang/" ]; then
15:56:14  <Maedhros> that should be ${OSXAPP} ...
15:57:38  <Maedhros> grr, this file would be easier to read if gvim didn't hilight everything bright red
15:57:49  <Maedhros> i wonder what it thinks is wrong with it?
15:58:14  <ln-> $ ./configure
15:58:14  <ln-> grep: illegal option -- E
15:58:14  <ln-> grep: illegal option -- q
15:58:14  <ln-> Usage: grep -hblcnsviw pattern file . . .
15:58:43  <Rubidium> ok, now comes the 'trick': it is a bash script, but in order to make it work under MinGW or cygwin (don't know which it exactly was), it needs to #!/bin/sh as it does not know bash, when sh is actually bash
15:59:00  <ln-> gah
15:59:26  <Tron__> Rubidium: nonsense
15:59:44  <Brianetta> All my bash scripts start #!/bin/sh anyway
15:59:55  <Brianetta> I tend not to use the bash extensions if I can help it
16:00:01  <ln-> Rubidium: if it doesn't run with plain sh, it should refer to it then.
16:02:34  <Rubidium> Tron__: <- see the nonsense
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16:02:46  <Tron__> it is NO bash script
16:02:53  <Tron__> it does not use bashisms
16:03:57  <VanilleBert> hi, does anybody know the name of following grfs?
16:04:24  <Rubidium> what could cause the problems for ln- then? A non-sh compatible shell linked to /bin/sh ?
16:04:50  <Maedhros> Rubidium: no, $(OSXAPP) is invalid
16:04:53  <ln-> given that configure has 118 lines, it's odd that the syntax error is on line 520...
16:04:54  <Tron__> a non-Posix conform grep obviously
16:05:07  <Maedhros> ln-: it's all in config.lib
16:05:23  <ln-> Tron__: that, too, maybe, but initially the script wouldn't run even that far.
16:05:23  <DJGummikuh> VanilleBert: newstations perhaps?
16:06:37  <Tron__> this whole thing makes stuff unnecessarily complicated
16:06:57  <DJGummikuh> VanilleBert:
16:07:13  <VanilleBert> thx
16:07:38  <ln-> the configure script is only supposed to run with GNU tools?
16:07:58  <Maedhros> ln-: does it work if you apply this patch?
16:08:39  <Tron__> the {} are redundant
16:09:24  <Maedhros> true... i'm just in the habit of using them for any variables inside a string
16:13:14  <Tefad> slight bug: if news hasn't been read before industry closes.. the industry's name is blank in the news item.
16:13:28  <ln-> hmm, ./configure
16:13:28  <ln-> configure: error: invalid option --endian=AUTO
16:13:56  <Ailure> I love how you can obliterate towns in openTTD
16:14:08  <Ailure> with some 'lobbying' :)
16:14:25  <Maedhros> meh
16:14:40  <Maedhros> ln-: which OS are you running?
16:16:08  <ln-> Maedhros: SunOS unknown 5.9 Generic_117171-07 sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCstation-5
16:18:35  <VanilleBert> Ailure: just like in real life... villages in saxony get obliterated for brown coal...
16:19:21  <VanilleBert> Ailure: but in OTTD the protests and demonstrations against that, are not in the News... just like in real life ;)
16:19:22  <Maedhros> bah. that grep doesn't support -E, but you can't escape ( | and ) with it, making it completely incompatible with gnu grep
16:19:46  <Ailure> is there a way to remove a server pw from a running server
16:19:49  <Ailure> without restarting it?
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16:23:51  <Ailure> oh well
16:23:55  <Ailure> I just restarted my server :p
16:24:06  <Ailure> since the console didn't let me blank it
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16:27:04  <Ailure>
16:27:07  <Ailure> heh
16:27:10  <Ailure> reports one client
16:27:14  <Ailure> it dosen't count the server apparently
16:27:18  <Ailure> depsite me particying in the game
16:27:36  <peter1138> servers are not clients
16:27:48  <Rubidium> and, that page is not necessarily up-to-date
16:28:49  <Ailure> hmm well heh
16:29:15  <Ailure> but it says 1/10 clients
16:29:22  <Ailure> so it's possibel to run a game with 11 players in total?
16:29:26  <Ailure> with one being the server?
16:29:26  <Ailure> :p
16:29:50  <peter1138> probably
16:30:02  <Ailure> still
16:30:11  <Ailure> I never liked that client limit
16:30:15  <Rubidium> I think that the local player is counted as a client in case of non-dedicated servers
16:30:30  <Ailure> which would make sense
16:30:32  <Ailure> but it dosen't here
16:30:36  <Ailure> unles it's slow at updating now
16:30:48  <Rubidium> Ailure: it updates once in 15 minutes
16:30:53  <Ailure> ah yeah
16:30:55  <Ailure> heh
16:30:57  <Ailure> makes sense
16:31:03  <Ailure> probably was last updated when I started it
16:31:03  <peter1138> hehe, utf-8 doesn't support the oe ligature, apparently
16:31:06  <Ailure> as I restarted it recently
16:31:17  <Ailure> and I was the only player for a half minute
16:31:20  <Ailure> which is probably when it did a update
16:31:34  <Rubidium> when you register it updates immediatelly
16:32:03  <Ailure> I like that search for GRF's link
16:32:05  <Ailure> didn't see it before
16:32:08  <Ailure> but it will be useful
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16:32:39  <Ailure> heh
16:32:44  <Ailure> some of the GRF's listed is reduant
16:32:49  <Ailure> tropical set in temperate climate?
16:32:57  <Ailure> that set isn't used
16:33:09  <peter1138> don't use it then
16:33:31  <Ailure> can't bother restarting again now though
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16:33:42  <peter1138> don't complain then ;p
16:33:42  <Ailure> it's the only GRF in that list
16:33:47  <Ailure> nah I wasn't complaining
16:33:52  <Ailure> just pointing out my own mistake :)
16:34:48  <Ailure> hmm
16:34:57  <Ailure> seems like some of my new stations is missing at grfcrawler
16:35:32  <Ailure> which is understandable as grcrawler can't have every GRF out there, especially without permission
16:35:54  <Ailure> I think thoose platforms are from the GRF pack for opeTTDcoop
16:36:36  <peter1138> grfcrawler doesn't host GRFs anyway
16:37:40  <Ailure> hmm
16:37:41  <Ailure> you're right
16:37:44  <Ailure> I never noticed that fact even
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16:50:47  <ln-> isn't it true that U = {(x,y,z) | z = 3x + 2y} is a subspace of R²?
16:53:30  <Progman> show me how u get a R³ element in a R² space *g*
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17:20:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: it is 2-dimensional, so you can map it isomorphically to R^2, but that does not make it R^2
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17:21:12  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: yeah, true...
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17:22:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> btw. i always assumed that germans use U at that place, because it means "Unterraum", why do non-german speakers use U there?
17:24:31  <ln-> i guess at the time when the finns came down from the trees and went to university, a lot of foreign math literature may have been in german.. and later the semantics of letters may have been forgotten but letters kept the same.
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17:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> there are some funny things with those namings, because some things were german originally, later translated to english, and then back-translated to german
17:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> especially noticeable in graph-theory
17:28:08  <Someone> ;o
17:28:19  <Someone> *WP: Iron Maiden - 22 Acacia Avenue (The Number Of The Beast) [06:33m/128Kbps/44KHz] (1983)
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17:34:52  <stillunknown> Someone: spam alert ;-)
17:34:56  <Wolf01> hola
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18:11:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> we should burn spammers at the stake... like they did with witches 200 years ago ;)
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18:22:53  <izhirahider> What can I do to prevent a town house or road from being built in a particular spot of the map?
18:24:16  <caladan> buy the land
18:28:29  <izhirahider> ah, well, that doesn't quite work in my map
18:28:36  <izhirahider> weird
18:29:06  <izhirahider> interesting...Is there any other way without putting a sign on the square?
18:29:18  <izhirahider> heh, if I buy it, it will block the boat passage
18:29:19  <caladan> build rail
18:29:32  <izhirahider> I'll show a screenshot, wait
18:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> i can't imagine how roads and ship-passages can possibly compete about the same tile...
18:33:16  <izhirahider>
18:33:28  <izhirahider> and
18:33:46  <izhirahider> the thing is: if I don't buy the land, houses will be built in those two positions, and will block the passage too
18:34:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> ah... diagonal shore tiles...
18:34:38  <caladan> do houses build like that? >
18:34:53  <izhirahider> yes, see next tile to the east
18:35:06  <izhirahider> I mean, to the west
18:35:16  <izhirahider> the road is on a slope
18:36:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd propose making the water 1 tile wider, or use canals
18:37:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r8375 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
18:37:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-01-23 19:34:40
18:37:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 changed by fukumori (2)
18:37:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: esperanto - 14 changed by LaPingvino (14)
18:37:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 6 fixed, 10 changed by Fishingsnow (16)
18:37:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 394 changed by Necrolyte (394)
18:37:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 68 changed by mad (61), znikoz (7)
18:38:16  <caladan> izhirahider: build there horizontal track :D
18:38:37  <izhirahider> I can't put anything there because it would raise the whole tile
18:39:13  <izhirahider> Eddi|zuHause2, you say raise the whole canal and create an artificial lake?
18:39:13  <izhirahider> heh
18:39:19  <caladan> true...
18:39:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> izhirahider: yes
18:39:37  <caladan> hmm, just use canals
18:42:52  <izhirahider> I don't have money for that
18:42:58  <izhirahider> heh
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19:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> izhirahider: tried placing a buoy?
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19:12:45  <izhirahider> can't
19:13:10  <izhirahider> Eddi|zuHause2, can't build anything on a slope like that, even my own trees
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19:25:33  <peter1138> who fucked up the rail vehicle lists?
19:27:10  <peter1138> bjarni
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19:29:59  <peter1138> Bjarni: any chance you can unfuck the rail vehicle build window?
19:30:19  <Mucht_> unfuck is cool
19:30:21  <Ailure> Imagine how many people would like to be able to unfuck in real life
19:30:29  <Mucht_> yeah
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19:34:45  <bubersson> I wish it woulf be possible to unfuck windows..
19:35:27  <Wolf01> what is the problem?
19:35:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> windows is one big problem ;)
19:36:52  <bubersson> crashed, when reading nightly trunk log (cuz it was dodownloading updates or whatever)
19:37:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r8376 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: remove unused table
19:37:15  <Wolf01> oooook, as the latest about 50 revisions broke my daylength patch, i bugfixed it, now it works better than always :D
19:38:03  <izhirahider> Eddi|zuHause2, you think I should make a bug report, or just consider it a feature?
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19:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> izhirahider: rather make a feature request ;)
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19:40:35  <Wolf01> features? on windows? they call features the bugs "hey i found a bug which make me able to gain the control of a remote machine" is the "shared desktop feature"
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19:44:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> Wolf01: don't mix different discussions ;)
19:45:19  <Wolf01> oh yeh, wasn't izhirahider who talked about windoz
19:45:30  <Digitalfox> Celestar said it would start some work in new branch economy this monday, haven't see him since saturday.. Anyone knows if he still thinks of starting economy branch this week?
19:47:19  <Wolf01> Bjarni, can you make the vehicle info windows resizable in width too?
19:47:56  <Wolf01> i can't read some strings
19:51:26  <Bjarni> one thing at a time please :P
19:51:35  <Bjarni> or rather, one window at a time
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20:01:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r8377 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r8331): [build vehicle window] train cargo capacity now only add "(refitable)" if the engine in question is refitable
20:01:40  <Bjarni> peter1138: here you go
20:01:55  <peter1138> what about the others?
20:02:32  <Bjarni> this particular bug was in a switch under case VEH_Train
20:02:46  <peter1138> you've shrunk the space at the bottom
20:03:21  <Bjarni> hmm
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20:03:42  <Bjarni> you mean it prints text outside of the widget?
20:03:46  <peter1138> yes
20:03:52  <Bjarni> with what set?
20:04:03  <peter1138> ukrs for a start
20:04:07  <Bjarni> ok
20:04:15  * Bjarni goes test this with ukrs
20:04:27  <peter1138> the space on the rail build window was increased but you've ripped that out
20:04:29  <hylje> :o
20:05:41  <peter1138> the railtype problem is tron's, though
20:05:58  <Tron> hm?
20:06:06  <peter1138> -               e->railtype = (RailType)ei->railtype;
20:06:16  <peter1138> but e->railtype still exists and is still used in places
20:07:35  <peter1138> (and is still saved in the savegame, more wtfage)
20:08:09  <peter1138> want to fiddle, or shall i fix it?
20:08:53  <hylje> :o
20:09:11  <Tron> peter1138: at it
20:09:19  <Tron> something is fishy in src/autoreplace_gui.cpp:63
20:09:30  <Tron> RailVehInfo() is used twice
20:09:42  <peter1138> yeah
20:10:01  <peter1138> never mind that ENGINE_AVAILABLE macro, heh
20:10:09  <Tron> and use DeMorgan's law
20:10:34  *** Wolfolo|AWAY [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:11:26  <Tron> the variable "info" seems unused
20:12:00  <Bjarni> peter1138: well, I failed to make it print outside the window
20:12:16  <peter1138> Bjarni: trust me, it was bigger than it is now for a reason
20:12:38  <peter1138> enable realistic acceleration
20:12:38  <Bjarni> can you tell me what vehicle, that's too big?
20:12:45  <peter1138> and view the bombardier voyager
20:13:01  <peter1138> hmm
20:13:04  <peter1138> not that one :P
20:13:21  <peter1138> alstom pendoline
20:13:29  <peter1138> actually yes that one too
20:13:34  <Tron> something is very wrong with DrawVehiclePurchaseInfo()
20:14:08  <peter1138> which one? heh
20:14:15  <Tron> exactly that's the problem
20:14:21  <peter1138> indeed
20:14:42  <Tron> the one for rail wagons and the one for locomotives
20:14:59  <Tron> the last parameter for the latter is superflous
20:15:37  <Bjarni> ok, found the issue
20:17:17  <peter1138> that's a fairly nasty use of overloading...
20:18:25  * peter1138 goes back to flightsim
20:20:27  * Belugas goes into the delights of BDE API calls
20:23:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r8378 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r8331): [build vehicle window] extended the widget with the details with one line since some newgrf trains needs it
20:23:45  <MiHaMeK> evening :)
20:24:11  <peter1138> welcome to regression testing
20:27:31  <Wolf01> yeah, now ships can travel diagonally under bridges :D
20:27:46  <hylje> :o
20:27:51  <Bjarni> should I rename the DrawVehiclePurchaseInfo() functions?
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20:43:51  <Wolf01> mmmm what's better? drag&drop select ships | select all ships in one tile | allow one ship per tile
20:44:09  <Bjarni> better for what?
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20:46:45  <Wolf01> for a suggestion about the ship selection
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20:55:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r8379 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: [build vehicle window] removed overloading with DrawVehiclePurchaseInfo() and renamed them into type specific names
20:55:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r8380 /trunk/src/lang/slovenian.txt: [Translations] -Fix: After held a developer mini-conference upon this wrong argidx issue, we decided to remove the {P ..} from STR_TONS
20:59:26  <Bjarni> at this rate, we will hit revision 10.000 in no time
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21:00:42  <MiHaMeK> lol
21:01:41  <peter1138> all that for not that much progress :P
21:02:02  <MiHaMeK> :D
21:02:07  <Wolf01> Bjarni, you moved some "running cost" functions?
21:02:27  <Bjarni> I don't think so
21:02:31  <Bjarni> I moved the print of it
21:02:41  <Bjarni> I mean
21:02:42  <Wolf01> eh, i meant that
21:02:59  <peter1138> Bjarni: yeah, remember you're not supposed to... *change* things
21:03:00  <Bjarni> I moved the code to print it, not WHERE in the window it's printed
21:04:10  <Wolf01> peter1138, is only to know, so i can find easily where i have to fix my patches
21:04:56  *** ajmiles [~aj@] has joined #openttd
21:05:32  <Bjarni> heh, now that I spend time coding again, I also spend time in this channel and now the TODO list grows more than ever even though I actually remove stuff from it
21:06:09  <ajmiles> would the reverse be true though?
21:09:18  <Bjarni> well, when I'm not in this channel and I don't code, it will not grow
21:09:31  <Bjarni> now that I do the stuff that's on the list, I thought it would shrink
21:09:42  <ajmiles> do other people do things on your TODO list though?
21:09:42  <Bjarni> instead people go "oh great. While you are at it, do this as well"
21:09:52  <Bjarni> I don't think so
21:09:59  <Bjarni> you see, it's on my HD and never made public
21:11:07  <hylje> thats, liek, good practice!
21:12:35  <Smoovious> speaking of which, Bjarni... would you mind doing ... .. .
21:12:37  <Smoovious> :) j/k
21:13:09  <ajmiles> does anyone have a ballpark figure for the # of lines in openttd's source?
21:13:36  <hylje> i can count em
21:13:39  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:13:52  <ajmiles> hylje, get back to me in 2008 sometime?
21:13:57  <hylje> :D
21:15:29  <hylje> hylje@fishtank ~/projects/ottd/trunk/src $ cat *.cpp *.h *.hpp | wc -l
21:15:29  <hylje> 116053
21:15:42  <peter1138> bzzt
21:15:44  <peter1138> sub directories
21:15:57  <hylje> o
21:16:37  <hylje> hylje@fishtank ~/projects/ottd/trunk/src $ cat *.cpp *.h *.hpp */*.cpp */*.h */*.hpp | wc -l
21:16:41  <hylje> 148500
21:16:49  <Tron> still not all
21:17:03  <hylje> :/
21:17:16  <hylje> im not l33t enough to recursively go through it all
21:17:36  <ajmiles> just throw a -r in there somewhere, it'll work eventually
21:18:34  <hylje> a plain recursive thing counts .svn dirs too
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21:19:00  <hylje> but at least those dont have plain .cpp etc files
21:19:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hylje: svn export
21:21:19  <Bjarni> you could also open the files manually and count
21:22:32  <caladan> maybe using find?
21:24:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r8381 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r8377): [build vehicle window] cleaned up the train refitable detection. It had two variables doing the same thing, but not always set to the same (oops)
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21:32:00  <peter1138> 156830, heh
21:32:17  <ajmiles> thanks for that
21:33:52  <Rubidium> peter1138: have you counted the obj-C files?
21:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Postulate: there's always a pedant who notices a missing line
21:35:13  <peter1138> point
21:35:19  <Rubidium> and win64.asm
21:35:22  <Eddi|zuHause> 1st derivation: the project has infinitely many lines
21:39:20  <ajmiles> ok, so i'm about 10% of the way to rewriting openttd ;)
21:39:34  <Maedhros> heh, why? and in which language?
21:39:59  <caladan> show us what you got :-)
21:40:10  <ajmiles> why not? :) and because i needed a third year project and i thought it might be fun to try
21:40:14  <ajmiles> C#
21:40:26  <Bjarni> o_O
21:40:38  <ajmiles> quite aware i'm not an artist and in all certainly won't ever finish, but the project doesn't require that i finish, just that i have done something
21:40:43  <Bjarni> are you the guy from the forum, who talked about making a C# port?
21:40:47  <ajmiles> nope
21:41:24  <Bjarni> we got the code in C/C++. I see no reason to rewrite it in any other language
21:41:32  <Digitalfox> ajmiles: Will you make available to the community the code you port?
21:41:51  <Digitalfox> even if is not finished?
21:42:00  <Bjarni> Digitalfox: why would you want that?
21:42:13  <ajmiles> it depends on what i get done and how tidy the code it, but it won't be of any use to the openttd community
21:42:33  <ajmiles> it's really just a personal project to see what i'm capable of doing in a few months
21:42:59  <Digitalfox> Bjarni: Someone if interested may continue the work :)
21:43:12  <ajmiles>
21:43:19  <Bjarni> ajmiles: I once had a personal project that took a few months. It's called autoreplace
21:43:28  <ajmiles> Bjarni, hehe
21:43:34  <Bjarni> now a whole lot of people know it
21:43:45  <Digitalfox> Bjarni: This is if someone find it interesting or useful :)
21:43:49  <ajmiles> yeah, as i said, i'm *very* aware i won't ever get anywhere near finishing
21:43:50  <Sacro> his depots face the wrong way :\
21:44:04  <Sacro> but i want his mine and power plant grf
21:44:04  <ajmiles> Sacro, yeah, that's because i've not though about how to change the openttd gui to reflect rotation
21:44:19  <Sacro> ajmiles: this is yours?
21:44:22  <ajmiles> yup
21:44:27  <Sacro> oooOOOooo
21:44:35  <ajmiles> don't stop with the criticism now :)
21:44:35  <Sacro> damn you stole my uni project idea
21:44:52  <ajmiles> it does have road vehicles and pathfinding, the video just doesn't demonstrate it
21:45:11  <ajmiles> - that one does though (and is a lot older)
21:45:44  <ajmiles> and if you want my road vehicle models, you can't, they are waaaay too advanced
21:46:31  <Sacro> :o
21:46:34  <Sacro> that bus is sooo cool
21:46:35  <ajmiles> ignore the sharp 90 degree turns, i'll worry about that later, it's easy to fix
21:46:49  <Sacro> i like it
21:46:52  <Sacro> its got charecter
21:46:55  <Sacro> and a retro feel
21:47:37  <Sacro> wow, the pathfinder actually does work
21:47:44  <ajmiles> it is designed to be a 'clone' of openttd/ttd, but in 3D. i'm not even sure it'll be fun, but hey
21:47:53  <ajmiles> yeah, it's just A* pathfinding
21:48:08  <Sacro> im interested in your code now :p
21:48:10  <Digitalfox> ajmiles: But this videos are based in the code you ported from openttd?? I'm confused :|
21:48:11  <Sacro> is it in opengl?
21:48:24  <Sacro> Digitalfox: hope so, cos then he is bound to the gpl :D
21:48:27  <ajmiles> Digitalfox, it's not really a "port"
21:48:33  <ajmiles> it's all my own code
21:48:35  <peter1138> i'd imagine it's from scratch
21:48:46  <ajmiles> i don't know C++, but i do know how to program
21:48:50  <peter1138> and is not a bad achievement
21:48:58  <ajmiles> it's DirectX, not OpenGL
21:49:18  <Brianetta> <Sacro> ... hope so, cos then he is bound to the gpl
21:49:26  <ajmiles> which will make people cry, but again, it's my 3rd year project i'll probably never finish, porting to other platforms comes so far down the feature list it's not worth thinking about
21:49:32  <Brianetta> Sacro: Only as much as the GPL can legally be applied to OpenTTD
21:50:17  <Sacro> Brianetta: i have a sturdly built friend near warwick, im sure he can apply it quite nicely :)
21:50:25  <ajmiles> there's been a couple of things i've wanted to look up in the openttd source for reference but just can't read C++, so it was useless, every line is my own
21:50:43  <Sacro> ajmiles: i was mostly curious about your graphics code
21:50:55  <ajmiles> anything about it in particular?
21:51:28  <ajmiles> the vehicle view windows are probably my favourite part, but getting a terrain that scales up to 1024x1024 proved a little tricky
21:51:56  <Bjarni> ajmiles: it looks like you know how to code, so why do you waste your time with something that will never be finished instead of working on OpenTTD?
21:52:16  <peter1138> Bjarni: why don't you read what's been written?
21:52:21  <ajmiles> Bjarni, because i can't really use openttd for my 3rd year project, it needs to be my own thing
21:52:48  <peter1138> Bjarni: why don't you work on ttdpatch?
21:52:59  <ajmiles> and it would have required learning C++ in the middle of my final year, which wouldn't have been wise
21:53:49  <Bjarni> what are you studying?
21:53:52  <ajmiles> CS
21:53:59  <Bjarni> without knowing C++?
21:54:34  <Bjarni> <peter1138>	Bjarni: why don't you work on ttdpatch? <-- because it fails to run natively on PowerPC
21:54:39  <caladan> Well, that's modern hmm, kind of way
21:54:47  <Sacro> Bjarni: not all CS courses teach C++
21:54:47  <ajmiles> indeed, the university doesn't teach it's students a language but the theory of how to be a good programmer. sure we do do programming, but we've so far used Java, (a little C), and SML
21:55:00  <Sacro> i think we just do C#
21:55:09  <Sacro> ooh, and something else, could have been lisp
21:55:31  <imaginner> C++ is not the only language out there, you know
21:55:31  * Maedhros would like to learn lisp
21:55:50  <caladan> C++ is much faster than java :]
21:55:52  <Maedhros> i haven't found a good project to work on to teach it to myself yet though...
21:55:59  <ajmiles> i don't think any of my modules this term would require programming at all. computer graphics, neural networks, artificial intelligence and simulation... fairly theoertical CS
21:56:03  <caladan> and probably as java portable, if written in a good way
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21:57:03  <imaginner> caladan: java is much faster to write in than C++ :)
21:57:22  <Bjarni> but java is slower to execute
21:57:37  <imaginner> depends
21:57:47  <caladan> java is like 5 times slower han c++
21:57:54  <Bjarni> also java appears to give me more problems than C++
21:57:55  <imaginner> caladan: nope
21:58:02  <caladan> nope? :>
21:58:09  <caladan> and it is eating so much memory
21:58:20  <caladan> JVM eats like 80MBs of RAM
21:58:46  <imaginner> caladan: it's surprising, but in some situations Java IS FASTER than C++
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21:59:06  <KUDr> imaginner: nope
21:59:16  <imaginner> due to it's JVM optimalisations and stuf
21:59:31  <caladan> oh come on, nothing can be faster than binary code
21:59:47  <KUDr> hehe, can optimize interpreted program better than compiled
21:59:48  <caladan> it's STILL run on virtual machine
21:59:57  <imaginner> ok, but what about some functions?
22:00:05  <caladan> which one?
22:00:08  <imaginner> Maths are about the same speed on java
22:00:15  <KUDr> functions, that are written in C
22:00:34  <imaginner> memory allocations in rare situations are faster
22:00:34  <caladan> it's partially true
22:00:37  <KUDr> as any jni functions
22:00:37  <caladan> lol
22:00:44  <imaginner> usually slightly slower
22:00:50  <caladan> dony even mention garbage-collector as a good feature
22:01:08  <imaginner> caladan: don't make me started :)
22:01:23  <Bjarni> the garbage collector is the saviour of the poor planning
22:01:27  * imaginner wishes he never started this topic
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22:01:49  <caladan> you see, if a PONG written in java works slower than on atari, that's wrong ;]
22:02:11  <imaginner> okay, some things to sort out:
22:02:17  <Rubidium> Java can be compiled into native code by the JVM. It can also do high level optimizations, so it is possible that some functions are faster under Java than under C.
22:02:40  <imaginner> Java as a core language is almost as C++
22:02:45  <caladan> compilet while being loaded to execute?
22:02:46  <imaginner> that was 1.
22:03:11  <imaginner> 2. Java GUI (Swing) IS SLOW.
22:03:17  <Tron> Rubidium: very much depends on your definition of "high level"
22:03:19  <Tron> imaginner: no
22:03:33  <imaginner> ah shoot
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22:03:42  <imaginner> I meant almost as fast
22:03:48  <imaginner> not almost as C++
22:04:21  <imaginner> Java core is almost as fast as C++, but the gui is slow
22:04:24  <caladan> i want to see a spice program or some advanced CAD written in java :D
22:04:44  <imaginner> what do you mean by a spice program?
22:04:57  <Sacro> ajmiles: i dont start my CS degree till september
22:05:00  <caladan> Elictronic Simulation
22:05:08  <ajmiles> Sacro, where you studying?
22:05:22  <imaginner> can it be a 3D game?
22:05:42  <caladan> 3d game in java?
22:05:48  <imaginner>
22:06:05  <Tron> imaginner: if you stick to integers and floats
22:06:12  <Sacro> ajmiles: Hull Uni
22:06:18  <Tron> the moment you use objects, you usually have lost
22:06:19  <Sacro> imaginner: i was a beta tester for that
22:06:31  <Tron> (hint: java has no non-native value types)
22:06:54  <Sacro> well... gave up, they only had 1 mirror for the game files, it was a 200MB game, and they wouldnt allow bittorrent or anyone else to re-host
22:07:09  <Maedhros> night
22:07:27  <imaginner> Sacro: nice!
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22:07:33  <Belugas> night Maedhros
22:07:37  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
22:07:41  <ajmiles> Sacro, yeah, there's a lecturer at Hull called Rob Miles, he's into XNA / Game Programming in quite a big way
22:07:45  <Belugas_Gone> and good night to everyone else !
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22:07:55  <imaginner> Sacro: I was near to joining the dev team for the sequel
22:07:55  <Sacro> ajmiles: rob miles is ace, known him for years
22:07:59  <caladan> you know why game is worse example than spice?
22:08:07  <Sacro> imaginner: coool
22:08:07  <imaginner> caladan: why?
22:08:09  <Rubidium> Tron: the high level optimizations in the league of: collecting statistics and optimizing based on the statistics.
22:08:10  <caladan> cause it uses probably directx
22:08:20  <imaginner> caladan: it does
22:08:24  <caladan> WELL
22:08:30  <caladan> so where's that damn portability!?
22:08:42  <Tron> Rubidium: that's rather very low level and only uses extremly local information
22:08:43  <imaginner> okay, different example
22:08:56  <caladan> you know, FrozenBubble is written in perl :D
22:09:11  <Tron> that's the usual approach of the Hotspot compiler
22:09:16  <imaginner> check out Eclipse
22:09:20  <imaginner>
22:09:20  <Tron> compile something which runs
22:09:29  <Sacro> eclipse ftw
22:09:31  <imaginner> ok, gotta go sleep
22:09:39  <Tron> add instrumentation code to collect some stats
22:09:45  <imaginner> see you tomorrow
22:09:48  <caladan> bye :-)
22:09:59  <Tron> if a piece of code gets executed very often
22:10:01  *** imaginner is now known as imaginner|away
22:10:52  <Tron> use the then available local (like currently used objects and their type) information there and produce a better code for this "hot spot"
22:11:34  <Tron> sometimes this can lead to faster code than what a static compiler can produce due to local information
22:12:13  <caladan> hmm, and what about the time it gets recompiled?
22:12:24  <Tron> but usually you only see this in synthetic examples
22:12:40  <caladan> it's called JIT, just-in-time, isnt it?
22:12:41  <Tron> like calling a virtual method in a loop 100 million times
22:13:13  <BFM> Reading about Vista... I think that, my last windows adventure for a while will be XP. I'm not gonna go down the vista path me thinks.
22:13:29  <Sacro> vista ftl
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22:20:58  <BFM> Sacro, yah... With everything I've been reading, it doesn't really have one single advantage over XP for an end user such as myself. If anything, it's just another money pit. Start back at square 1.
22:21:34  <BFM> Direct X 10 doesn't justify it's purchase, not when majority of games will support DX9 for years to come.
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22:22:34  <Sacro> yup
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22:22:36  *** Netsplit <-> quits: guru3, Tefad, blathijs
22:22:42  <Sacro> :\
22:22:51  <Sacro> how did they know...
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22:28:03  <ajmiles> DX10 does have fairly good benefits for developers over DX9, but the end user won't really see that
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22:29:08  <BFM> As per the end user though,like, what are the pro's and con's of XP and Vista?
22:29:10  <BFM> I can't think of any pro's for vista :S
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22:29:45  <ajmiles> not running as an administrator by default should be a big plus for vista's security
22:29:59  <ajmiles> sure you can run as a limited user on xp, but you can bet 99% of people don't
22:30:36  <Sacro> ajmiles: doesnt really work though
22:30:47  <ajmiles> what, running as a limited user on vista?
22:33:02  <BFM> ajmiles, lol, but you can still do that with XP, just gotta set it up over about 5 minutes :D
22:33:03  <Sacro> vista in gerneral
22:33:09  <Sacro> UAC annoyed me so i disabled it
22:33:36  <BFM> And it's not like Linux, all user acounts still read of the one vulnerable reg
22:33:50  <ajmiles> BFM, oh indeed, but you have to be aware than 99% of users don't know how to do that and don't know what it achieves, so you have millions more infected machines attacking those that are better secured
22:34:03  <ajmiles> the same logic behind giving pirated versions of Windows security updates
22:34:25  <ajmiles> it's better to have everyone secure, whether they are legitimate or not, because it's better for those that are secured/legit
22:34:39  <BFM> yup
22:34:52  <ajmiles> UAC isn't as annoying as it once was for me
22:36:04  <ajmiles> the big problem in the betas with UAC was that it took ages for the screen to go black, display the dialog, and let you carry on again, in RTM with uptodate graphics drivers it's over in less than a second
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23:18:43  <Wolf01> 'night all
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