Log for #openttd on 21st February 2007:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:15  <lolman> Banshee or Rhythmbox...hmm
00:03:07  <Sacro> guile
00:03:27  <lolman> ...
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00:06:35  <Arkus> openttd related: does anyone have a pattern they use for building stupidly long continuous passenger train lines?
00:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> err... what?
00:07:43  <Arkus> basically i'm building a hugely long passenger train line (two terminus stations with a few dozen intermediate stations)
00:07:49  <Sacro> heh
00:07:56  <Arkus> and i just wondered if anyone had any best practises or similar
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00:08:03  <Arkus> (other than don't do what i'm doing)
00:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> i generally go with what's more pretty
00:08:34  <lolman> Everyone's strategy is different
00:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> and my passenger trains have usually 3 or 4 stations
00:09:00  * Sacro goes for the 4-4-2 strategy
00:09:08  <lolman> Not football, Sacro
00:09:15  <Sacro> nope
00:09:16  <Sacro> not football
00:09:28  <Arkus> i'm sure that's code for something
00:09:30  <Arkus> 4 tile long trains?
00:09:37  <Arkus> or something?
00:09:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> 4-4-2... that is a strange engine ;)
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00:10:27  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: yes, it is
00:10:28  <Arkus> i wouldn't know - i'm ignorant and love plastic trains ;)
00:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> who builds such things?
00:11:01  <Arkus> siemens desiros are pretty plastic (i follow the real things to an extent :$)
00:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> their tractive effort must head towards zero
00:11:01  * Sacro falls over laughing
00:11:40  <Arkus> Sacro- nice:)
00:11:56  <Arkus> Eddi|zuHause2: the train company near where i live uses siemens desiro trains now, very much plastic interiors
00:12:00  <lolman> lol Sacro
00:12:45  <Arkus> Eddi|zuHause2: they accelerate at about 1m/s² for a 12 coach fully laden train though
00:12:47  <Arkus> so they pull ;)
00:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> Arkus: i meant a 4-4-2 engine
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00:13:14  <Arkus> i'm sorry - didn't realise
00:13:20  <Arkus> thought you were talking about my reference to plastic trains
00:13:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> 4 undriven wheels (2 axles), 4 driven wheels (2 axles) and 2 undriven wheels (1 axle)
00:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> means 2 driven axles vs. 3 undriven axles
00:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> so only around 40% of the mass is useable for traction
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00:14:47  <Arkus> hmm, not a massive amount - you want a high middle number do you?
00:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> all newer engines (that i know of) have all axles driven
00:16:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> (that is possible, because they are mounted on a turnable element)
00:17:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> on steam engines, the driven axles (usually) could not be turned, because they had to be connected by rods
00:17:37  <Arkus> ah ok
00:17:55  <Arkus> but seeing as we use motors rather than steam, we can mount them seperately?
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00:18:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> then they had 1 or 2 undriven turnable axles in front of them, to a) make the engine longer (bigger boiler) and b) drag the engine into the curve direction, to remove pressure off the outer rail
00:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> it has not much to do with using motors
00:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> rather the system how to transfer the force changed
00:20:15  <Arkus> ok
00:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> from rods to gears
00:21:18  <Bjarni> hmm
00:21:41  <Bjarni> talking about train technologies, are we? :)
00:21:51  <Bjarni> that's the main issue here?
00:21:58  <Arkus> at the moment
00:22:08  <Arkus> although unfortunately i have to go now, out late tomorrow evening
00:22:12  <Arkus> and work at 830am :(
00:22:19  <Arkus> (8 hrs till i start)
00:22:39  <Arkus> hopefully see everyone again soon (bit of an irc noob, will have to get some practise!)
00:23:26  <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause2>	so only around 40% of the mass is useable for traction <-- no. Steam locomotives tend to have uneven distribution of weight, so the axle pressure aren't the same for all axles
00:23:52  <Bjarni> I know of a 2-6-2 engine with 10 tons on each powered axle and 4 tons on each unpowered axle
00:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, that's why i said "around"
00:25:01  <Bjarni> so 60% of the axles are powered and they have like 79% of the weight
00:25:08  <Bjarni> that's not "around"
00:25:15  <Bjarni> there is a noteworthy difference
00:26:19  <Bjarni> usually leading and trailing trucks are added to "catch" the rails (specially in curves) to make the engine drive more stable
00:26:47  <Bjarni> since their task is to follow the track, the pressure on them do not have to be great
00:26:48  <Arkus> cya everyone
00:26:55  <Bjarni> in fact it shouldn't be
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00:27:26  <Bjarni> having an enormous weight on the front axle hurts the tracks big time
00:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> <- that is around what i imagined when i heard "4-4-2"... a big toy ;)
00:29:45  <Bjarni> <-- it's a big toy alright
00:30:30  <Bjarni> <-- LOL. I see your "toy" point of view now :D
00:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> "Die Atlantic ist eine Übergangsform zwischen der Bauart American (2'B) und der Pacific (2'C1') und ist nur in vergleichsweise geringer Stückzahl gebaut worden, weil die Zugkraft der zwei Kuppelachsen bald nicht mehr ausreichte." <- pretty much supports my tractive effort point
00:32:25  <Bjarni> not really
00:33:57  <Bjarni> the point is that say you has 20 tons on each driver, then you have a total of 40 tons on the drivers. Since steam locomotives have a max traction of 20% of the weight on the drivers, it can pull max 0,2*40=8 tons
00:34:36  <Bjarni> adding a new axle (4-6-2 pacific), you can increase the weight on the drivers to 60 tons and hence give a traction of 12 tons
00:34:53  <Bjarni> and there is a don't care for the weight on the other axles
00:35:41  <Bjarni> however they learned that the leading 2 axle unpowered truck in combo with a trailing 1 axle truck made the engine stable enough to go into high speed
00:36:50  <Bjarni> so the point about adding another powered axle is about total weight on drivers, not number of drivers compared to unpowered axles or weight on drivers compared to the weight on the unpowered axles
00:38:14  <Bjarni> having 3 axles joined by a rod added a new limit to how sharp curves the engine can handle, so it's a tradeoff
00:38:48  <Bjarni> not to mention it's more expensive to build, operate and maintain when you increase the weight and number of moving parts
00:38:58  <Nigel> wow
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00:39:26  <Bjarni> wow?
00:39:41  <Bjarni> you get so impressed with physics that you go wow?
00:40:16  <Nigel> no, just a whole screen a text, let me read it
00:40:24  <Bjarni> :(
00:41:21  <Bjarni> the world really need more people to care about physics and you just got amazed by the number of lines, not the serious physical contents of them....
00:41:22  <Nigel> quite interesting though
00:41:36  <Nigel> Bjarni: i actually know a little physics
00:41:46  <Bjarni> good
00:43:01  <Nigel> i actually didn't know that
00:43:29  <Nigel> i should so go through my old physics text books again :P
00:45:24  * Sacro loves physics
00:48:58  <Bjarni> Sacro: physics can hurt your head
00:49:13  <Sacro> Bjarni: indeed... i do astrophysics at college
00:49:19  <Sacro> Hubbles Constant hurts my head
00:49:58  <lolman> Gravity hurts my head when a conker falls on it
00:50:05  <Bjarni> actually I meant if you roll over in your sleep and leave the bed, physics would pull you downward (gravity) and you can crash your head into the floor
00:50:42  <Bjarni> damn lolman beat me to include the hurting gravity idea :s
00:50:48  <lolman> :)
00:51:03  <Bjarni> and I even planned it from when I wrote the first line about hurting Sacro's head
00:51:11  <lolman> Hehe
00:51:16  <Bjarni> lolman: NOW YOU SPOILED IT >_<
00:51:32  <lolman> Awww, poor Bjarni :P
00:52:29  <Bjarni> you can tell all sorts of interesting stuff based on physics
00:52:45  <lolman> The time, for example
00:53:01  <Bjarni> like if you go on a spacewalk without a spacesuit, you will not freeze to death or suffocate
00:53:33  <Bjarni> you will die from the air pressure around you (or lack hereof) before you have time to die from the other conditions
00:55:10  <Sacro> you implode dont you
00:55:30  <Bjarni> yeah
00:55:38  <lolman> As the air leaves you, yeah
00:56:05  <Bjarni> starting with weak spots that's full of liquid or air
00:56:06  <Sacro> note to self.. . don't sneeze
00:56:08  <Bjarni> like the eyes
00:56:18  <Nigel> physics hurt, because the train ran me over :P
00:56:20  <lolman> So you'd be blind too ;-)
00:56:50  <lolman> However...the eyes would explode...
00:56:55  <Bjarni> <Nigel>	physics hurt, because the train ran me over :P <-- I have been under a train and damn it hurt
00:56:56  <lolman> The rest would implode
00:57:01  <Bjarni> those rocks are sharp :(
00:57:29  <Nigel> Bjarni: heh
00:57:56  <Nigel> oh yeah, is diesel trains in underground terminals actually such a rare event?
00:58:11  <Bjarni> not here
00:58:20  <Nigel> exactly
00:58:39  <Nigel> some people here were talking about Britomart
00:58:55  <Bjarni> we have an underground station that was built in the steam era. They moved to diesel during the 50s and 60s and put up catenary in 1984
00:58:58  <Nigel> saying that the diesel trains in Britomart (underground terminal), is hardly heard of
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01:03:12  <Bjarni> using diesel underground do result in issues
01:03:36  <Bjarni> so using good ventilation is a must
01:04:05  <Sacro> lolman: fancy lfs?
01:04:16  <Bjarni> also I know of at least two cases where the fire alarm started because of diesel locomotives in high RPM
01:05:49  <Nigel> Bjarni: Britomart had a fire evac the other day
01:06:00  <Nigel> the brakes was steaming too much
01:06:20  <Bjarni> :)
01:07:14  <Nigel> thats why there was the discussion
01:07:18  <lolman> Sacro: you're cracked...
01:07:25  <Nigel> but yeah, the ventilation is pretty good
01:08:15  <Nigel> biggest problem is when the locos startup, the vents aren't quick enough, but it clears within seconds
01:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> all underground systems i know are electric
01:12:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i don't know how many diesel trains are going there
01:13:20  <Nigel> i think Britomart was designed for electric, but the govt doesn't want to fund it
01:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> unelectrified tracks are usually minor routes through the countryside
01:22:16  <Nigel> Wellington is Electric, but Auckland sadly isn't
01:33:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> none of these names actually tell me anything
01:33:47  <Nigel> Wellington = Lower North Is, Auckland = Upper North Is where I live
01:34:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> ?
01:35:13  <Nigel>
01:35:36  <Nigel> oh, and Britomart is central Auckland
01:42:05  <Nigel> woohoo, only 7 "train is delayed" messages today
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02:22:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r8827 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
02:22:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Cleanup of industry_cmd (Step-6). Implementation of IndustryTileSPec, the alter ego of IndustrySpec.
02:22:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: It offers identification of the different industry tiles in a more distinct manner, as well as regrouping scattered pieces of data across the sources. More to come
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07:37:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tron * r8828 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp station_cmd.cpp):
07:37:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix
07:37:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Regression (r7585): On load calculate the station rectangle for all savegames, not just savegames with at least version 27
08:32:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tron * r8829 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
08:32:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix
08:32:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Remove translations which should not be empty
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08:50:35  <Darkvater> morning
08:52:05  <Maedhros> good morning
08:53:37  <Darkvater> :O 92 seconds needed to sell 50BMW's in Neiman Marcus's Christmas catalog
08:53:45  <Darkvater> there are too many rich people
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09:02:33  <peter1139> bah
09:03:02  <Darkvater> moin'
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09:12:32  <peter1139> damn, cacti needs a fast system :/
09:12:56  <Darkvater> use just a single cactus
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09:29:56  <TheMask96> lol :)
09:32:47  <Nigel> heh
09:33:20  <peter1139> o_O
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13:20:36  <GoneWacko> I've never seen so much talking in this channel
13:20:58  <Sionide> last message at 09:33 GMT: <peter1139> o_O
13:21:11  <Sionide> HOW IS IT GOING GONEWACKO !
13:21:17  <Sionide> played much ottd lately?
13:21:26  <GoneWacko> Can't say that I have
13:21:39  <GoneWacko> I'm too lazy to download nice GRF files :(
13:21:39  <Sionide> me neither, been busy
13:21:52  <GoneWacko> I'm busy waiting for my components
13:22:03  * GoneWacko assumes Sionide's been following planet tt-forums
13:22:25  <Sionide> sorta
13:22:28  <Sionide> new comp?
13:22:51  <GoneWacko> you could say that
13:23:12  <GoneWacko> muchos dineros
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14:13:28  <Belugas> hello
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15:09:11  <Darkvater> hi Belugas
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15:41:21  <Belugas> mister Darkvater :)
15:41:26  <Belugas> i salute thee
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16:48:59  * Sacro prods lolman
16:49:01  <Sacro> OH NOES
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17:09:08  * lolman prods Sacro
17:09:17  * Sacro sqeaks
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17:11:27  <lolman> Hmm
17:13:22  <Sacro> indeed
17:13:27  * Sacro goes racing
17:14:54  <lolman> Sacro: you said last night you wanted to play LFS?
17:15:31  <Prof_Frink> LFS sounds like hard work to me.
17:15:46  <lolman> Live For Speed, not Linux From Scratch :)
17:16:13  <Sacro> Prof_Frink: ive done both
17:16:15  <Prof_Frink> :)
17:16:24  <Sacro> lolman: yes, i have been playing LFS
17:19:52  <lolman> What combo?
17:20:31  <Sacro> eh?
17:20:35  <lolman> Track/car
17:20:39  <Sacro> oh...err...
17:20:41  <Sacro> testing a few
17:20:47  <lolman> :)
17:20:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8830 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
17:20:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: Stop loading and disable the current newgrf if a fatal error message
17:20:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: in Action B is encountered. Also be more strict on the values accepted.
17:21:52  <Maedhros> unfortunately for anyone using ttrs3 in trunk, you won't be able to use it anymore ;)
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17:39:06  <Wolf01> hello
17:40:29  <Sacro> hey Wolf
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17:51:38  <Wolf01> mmmm politicians in italy are more stupid than me
17:53:31  <Sacro> thats worrying
17:53:39  <Wolf01> yes
17:53:44  <Wolf01> that's really worring
17:53:47  <Wolf01> *y
17:54:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8831 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
17:54:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: If an action 7/9 leads to skipping the rest of the file, disable the
17:54:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: newgrf if an action 8 hasn't been encountered yet.
17:54:52  <Wolf01> we might have berlusconi (the clown) again as first minister
17:59:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r8832 /trunk/ (12 files in 2 dirs):
17:59:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: rewrite the solution file generator a little so it makes project files that look more like the ones generated by respectively MSVC2003 and MSVC2005.
17:59:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: For some reason the internal formatting of the XML between MSVC2003 and MSVC2005 differs, so adding a file in MSVC2005 would result in basically adding the entire openttd_vs80.vcproj to the diff.
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18:51:57  <DaleStan> Belugas: Since you were asking, I just remembered two other things that Planeset 1.6 requires: mod flags bit 10 (var FE bit 10/var FF bit 2) and variable 48.
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18:54:36  <Born_Acorn> The Planset needs more explosions and narrators with deep voices.
18:54:55  <Born_Acorn> *COMING SOON to a GRFCrawler near you*
18:55:01  <Born_Acorn> *boom*
18:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> DaleStan: btw. checking existence of features by comparing a scalar will never work for features that are implemented in the future
18:55:17  <Darkvater> Rubidium: r8832?
18:56:13  <Belugas> DaleStan : noted
18:56:14  <Rubidium> people complaining about the fact that adding one file in MSVC2005 changes the complete file
18:56:34  <HMage> lf->crlf?
18:56:34  <Darkvater> Rubidium: yes is that fixed or introduced by r8832?
18:56:46  <Belugas> DaleStan, thanks, by the way :)
18:58:35  <Rubidium> most of it should be fixed by r8832, but it is impossible to fix everything, as for example the version number's decimal character seem to depend on the settings of the OS
18:59:20  <glx> and my 2005 likes to reorder configurations
18:59:25  <Rubidium> and it seems to order some the configurations differently with different versions of MSVC 2005
18:59:50  <Darkvater> yeah, every time I add a file to the project file internally and save it, the whole file is different
18:59:56  <Darkvater> so I just do it manually
19:00:14  <DaleStan> Eddi|zuHause2: Do you have better suggestion for support checks? Because checking for support for every single bit of every single variable seems absurd. (Obviously, I can't just check the variable as a whole, because most variables start out as byte-sized and later grow to two, three, or four bytes, and some variables gain bits one at a time.)
19:00:34  <Rubidium> now the differences should be much much less
19:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> DaleStan: sorry, i have no sensible solution for that, only that for every (tiny) change in the newgrf spec you set a bit in a bitfield...
19:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> then you could know exactly what part of the spec is implemented
19:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> but if you only check against a scalar value, you would have to predict at what point in the future a feature gets implemented, or you refuse to load no matter if it is actually implemented, and have to release an update when it is implemented
19:07:08  *** Digitalfox [] has joined #openttd
19:07:15  <Digitalfox> Hi :)
19:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> this second scenario especially implies that there is no testing case for the feature
19:09:17  <peter1138> well
19:09:24  <peter1138> the "ttdpatch flags" test is basically that
19:09:38  <Born_Acorn> peter1138!
19:09:43  <Rubidium> Darkvater: could you look at the problem of ?
19:09:43  <peter1138> Born_Acorn!
19:09:44  <Born_Acorn> Look everyone, peter1138 is here!
19:09:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah but it is obviously not complete
19:09:48  <peter1138> no i'm not
19:09:51  <Born_Acorn> Lies.
19:09:57  <Darkvater> STOP CHATTING BITCHES
19:09:57  <Digitalfox> Maedhros: To what point does openttd now blocks newgrf it does not recognize or is has incompatible paremeters?? Will give me and other persons problems with newgrf that isn't 100% compatible?
19:09:59  <Born_Acorn> I happen to know it to be true that you are.
19:10:05  <DaleStan> Except that it's not for what's supported, it's for what the user has chosen to enable.
19:10:09  <Darkvater> I cannot select Rubidium's text as it keeps scrolling up
19:10:13  <HMage> Darkvater: try +m :)
19:10:20  <Born_Acorn> it works, hardcore.
19:10:28  <DaleStan> If the user can't disable it, it doesn't get a bit in var 85.
19:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe that should be changed
19:11:42  <Maedhros> Digitalfox: no, this only makes openttd's newgrf support a little more compatible
19:12:18  <Maedhros> Digitalfox: this means that ttrs3 will now refuse to load in trunk because newhouses isn't available, which is what was intended by the grf's authors all along
19:12:22  <Darkvater> Rubidium: hmm, technically gcc is correct, but practically it isn't
19:12:48  <Darkvater> Rubidium: it'd be damn ugly to strdup() that string just to have it copied in the function itself and free the buffer 2 lines later
19:13:28  <Tron> static char[] = "foobar";
19:13:43  <Darkvater> (char*)"bla";
19:13:46  <Darkvater> made it shut up as well
19:13:48  <Digitalfox> Maedhros: So this was what Dalestan wanted ?? Newgrf that  doesn't comply doesn't load ttrs 3 ?
19:13:56  <Digitalfox> like ttrs 3
19:13:58  <Maedhros> Digitalfox: no
19:13:58  <Tron> or why isn't the struct attribute a const char*?
19:14:27  <Maedhros> Digitalfox: grf's can supply error messages, and if they are fatal errors the grf is supposed to stop loading
19:14:34  <Maedhros> Digitalfox: they didn't before, but they do now
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19:16:03  * Maedhros slaps himself for abusing apostrophes
19:16:07  <DaleStan> Eddi|zuHause2: Well, GRFs can only test at most 256 bits of the ttdpatch flags. And I'm sure that there have been more than 256 changes to the newgrf spec.
19:16:09  <dihedral> is being able to clear the password of a company from the console a bad thing?
19:16:21  <Darkvater> Tron: apparently you cannot free the pointer free((*config)->filename);
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19:16:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> DaleStan: yeah, i said it was not sensible
19:16:59  <Darkvater> but all entries to GRFConfig are copied from the original
19:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> although this 256 bit limit sounds a little arbitrary
19:17:13  <Digitalfox> Maedhros: I see, now i have to forget for a while TTRS 3, since i was using it with trunk to see how roads and road buildings were showing, with my newgrf configuration, i was waiting for newhouses merge for using it... :(
19:18:09  <lolman> Digitalfox: when newhouses gets merged (if?) it should work...if I'm understanding the concept right
19:18:54  <Darkvater> Tron: is static char[] better or a char* cast?
19:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> doesn't ttrs3 have parameters to disable the buildings?
19:19:00  <DaleStan> The bit index is stored in a single byte. And there may be good reason for the current 00..7F limit (like x86's habit of sign-extending bytes, instead of zero-extending them).
19:19:14  <Belugas> lolman, forget the (if?) ;)
19:19:42  <lolman> ok ;)
19:19:43  <peter1138> right, homne
19:19:45  <peter1138> er
19:19:46  <peter1138> home
19:19:48  <Born_Acorn> homne
19:20:02  <Digitalfox> lolman: Yeah with newhouses it will work, the problem was i was using it with trunk for having my newgrf set's looking nice ( still i couldn't use houses, but roads and road buildings were working fine ):)
19:20:04  * lolman gets on with Computing project...damn VB >_<
19:20:12  <DaleStan> Digitalfox: No, I want Open to refuse to load ttrs3 because it doesn't know what an action B is, not because the action B says "don't load this file".
19:20:14  <peter1138> set's!
19:20:40  <DaleStan> Digitalfox: ... Rather poorly phrased, though.
19:20:54  <peter1138> very, it knows full well what an action B is
19:21:56  <Maedhros> it falls over a little bit if you give it a custom error message though
19:22:01  <lolman> In fact...what was I wanting to get done on this thing...
19:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> <DaleStan> The bit index is stored in a single byte. And there may be good reason for the current 00..7F limit (like x86's habit of sign-extending bytes, instead of zero-extending them). <- this sounds exactly like the reasoning of an assembler programmer ;)
19:22:37  <Digitalfox> Sorry if i'm having a hard time explaining my thoughts, but translating portuguese from my head to english is a bit hard sometimes :)
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19:23:40  <DaleStan> Well, NFO was designed by an assembly programmer, to be quickly and easily parsed by a program written in assembly.
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19:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, i understand that ;)
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19:24:52  <Brianetta> NFO needs a compiler, from some higher language to NFO bytes
19:25:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> but then you should not complain if a C++ program interprets the spec a little more loosely
19:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> because it faces other kinds of limitations than assembly programs
19:25:45  *** lolman is now known as lolman|DamnVB
19:25:46  <DaleStan> It's welcome to be loose. It's not welcome to disobey the spec.
19:26:08  <Brianetta> Can it obey an earlier version of the spec?
19:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> there's no real difference between bending the rules and breaking them
19:26:55  <Wolf01> yeah, now i have the TI85 on my nintendo DS... i only miss ottd :P
19:27:11  <DaleStan> Can I determine which version of the spec is supported?
19:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> that is exactly what the problem is... the spec is not implemented linearly
19:28:15  <Brianetta> I have a HP49G on my Palm
19:28:16  <Tron> (like x86's habit of sign-extending bytes, instead of zero-extending them). <- this sounds exactly like the reasoning of an assembler programmer ;) <--- rather like somebody who can't tell the difference between movsbl and movzbl
19:28:44  <peter1138> oh yes, i was going home
19:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you cannot determine a "version" that is supported
19:29:31  <DaleStan> Tron: Good theory. Except that x86 cannot be convinced to zero-extended imm8s.
19:29:44  <DaleStan> If the spec doesn't say what value appears in the high three bytes of var 48, then failing to zero those three bytes is interpreting the spec loosely, albeit validly. But failing to set the low byte correctly is disobeying the spec.
19:32:01  <Born_Acorn> peter1138 must the the only person on the planet who forgets about going home after work.
19:32:12  <lolman|DamnVB> BBL ;)
19:32:41  <Brianetta> Born_Acorn: I forget, too, but the cleaners kick me out after a bit
19:32:53  *** Arkus [~danielark@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> the same kind of cleaners that pull the plug of The Server to plug in the vacuum?
19:34:55  <hylje> the classic WTF
19:46:22  <peter1138> W.T.F.
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19:46:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tron * r8833 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp station_map.h):
19:46:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix
19:46:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Split MakeRoadStop() into MakeRoadStop() and MakeDriveThroughRoadStop() for more clarity and less possibilities to use it incorrect
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19:47:20  <peter1138> DaleStan, what is your problem with var 48?
19:47:44  <peter1138> hmm
19:48:22  <DaleStan> I mentioned it because the documentation on whether or not it works properly is nonexistent.
19:49:10  <peter1138> feel free to document it
19:49:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tron * r8834 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:
19:49:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix
19:49:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Do not pass something to a function it better could figure out by itself
19:50:34  <Born_Acorn> Oi, aircraft_cmd.cpp, YOU SHALL NOT PASS.
19:50:39  * Born_Acorn gandalf
19:52:47  <Tron> got any problem?
19:53:27  <Maedhros> new patch, for showing action b errors in the gui:
19:53:37  <Maedhros> looks something like
19:54:03  <Maedhros> if the grf text and error messages are long enough it overflows though :-/
19:54:21  <Tron> +	char *message = CallocT<char>(1024);
19:54:21  <Tron> +	snprintf(message, 1023, msgstr[(message_id == 0xFF) ? lengthof(msgstr) - 1 : message_id], sevstr[severity], grf_load_string(&buf, len));
19:54:21  <Tron> +
19:54:23  <Tron> *BZZZT*
19:54:37  <Tron> NEVER use a number in snprintf for buffer length
19:54:44  <Tron> also the number is one to low
19:55:15  <Maedhros> so what should i be using? (and i thought you had to leave space for the NUL byte in snprintf, ah well)
19:56:16  <Tron> also using calloc and then overwriting the content anyway is pretty pointless
19:56:41  <peter1138> grrr, bloody cisco
19:57:10  <Maedhros> ok, so malloc, and an enum for the size?
19:57:29  <peter1138> hehe, even the old planeset no longer works :D
19:57:54  *** lugo [] has joined #openttd
19:57:58  <lugo> hi
19:58:04  <Tron> a simple const will do
19:58:30  <peter1138> Darkvater: is there any reason why loading a savegame with grf config also loads the newgame grf config?
19:59:29  <Maedhros> +	const uint MESSAGE_SIZE = 1024;
19:59:30  <Maedhros> +	char *message = MallocT<char>(MESSAGE_SIZE);
19:59:36  <Maedhros> better?
19:59:49  <Maedhros> bah, i forgot irc and tabs don't get along well together...
19:59:53  <Tron> and general hint: don't ever try to think. it doesn't work. billions have tried before you.
19:59:57  <Tron> just read the manual
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20:00:06  <peter1138> everyone understands the inverted I
20:00:46  <Born_Acorn> You forget the inverted u
20:00:49  <Born_Acorn> n
20:01:01  <peter1138> shut up[
20:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> ^I gets interpreted as italic here
20:01:07  <Born_Acorn> Nevar
20:01:44  <peter1138> aircrafts!
20:02:18  *** Sacro [~Ben@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:03:48  *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
20:03:59  <CaSpEr_59> HeLLo
20:04:14  *** CaSpEr_59 [~sesimiz@] has quit []
20:04:44  <Born_Acorn> GoODBYe
20:04:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> sometimes i am amazed what kind of people manage to survive
20:05:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tron * r8835 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:
20:05:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix
20:05:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Remove dead code
20:06:09  *** Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@] has joined #openttd
20:08:23  <DaleStan> Maedhros: If you're using C++, why are you still using char*s and printfs, instead of strings and stringstreams?
20:09:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> probably because compiling c as c++ and using c++ features are two entirely different pairs of shoes
20:10:07  <Maedhros> i'm pretty sure the decision was that iostreams were ugly and weren't going to be used in openttd
20:10:10  *** MUcht [] has joined #openttd
20:10:30  <DaleStan> But templates (eg "CallocT<char>(1024);") are C++, not C.
20:10:45  <Maedhros> yes, but that's out of necessity (or something like that, anyway)
20:11:22  <peter1138> malloc works fine
20:11:27  <peter1138> you just have to (bleh) cast it
20:12:29  <DaleStan> strings and streams constitute at least 90% of the reason I prefer C++ to C.
20:13:56  *** Mucht_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:24:09  <Darkvater> peter1138: when?
20:24:45  * Darkvater dislikes streams
20:25:25  <Darkvater> peter1138: I don't think there would be a reason to do so, did I do this?
20:25:50  <Tron> Darkvater: C++ has no implicit cast from void* to another type
20:26:07  <peter1138> Darkvater: i don't know, but it does it
20:26:23  <Darkvater> Tron: what did I do?
20:27:03  <Tron> oh, you didn't refer to the necessity to cast peter mentioned? then nvm
20:27:11  <Darkvater> hmm Tron static char[] bla = "aaaaa"; or (char*)"aaaaa" for the warning in oldloader.cpp?
20:27:15  <Darkvater> Tron: no, something else
20:27:33  <peter1138> mmm, prawn crackers
20:27:39  <peter1138> like skips but bigger
20:27:55  <Darkvater> Maedhros: perhaps allow a dodgy-grf mode? It's suboptimal to refuse loading sets that were (kinda) working because of small errors/warnings
20:29:45  <Maedhros> hmm, it's not because of small errors or warnings, it's because the grf author explicitly decided to disable it
20:31:00  <Maedhros> and for the change in 8831, it was happening anyway, but openttd wasn't telling you about it
20:32:22  <Darkvater> he, we can override what the author decides
20:32:41  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:33:05  <Darkvater> peter1138: the issue you are talking about is that some recent change?
20:33:23  <Darkvater> or old? If it's recent I'm bjarnizing and didn't clear _grfconfig prior to appending
20:34:01  <peter1138> dunno
20:34:04  <peter1138> didn't look
20:35:18  <HMage> new term in vocabulary - bjarnization :D
20:35:38  <Sacro|Laptop> HMage: in other words... broken
20:35:42  <Sacro|Laptop> except in OSX
20:35:48  <Sacro|Laptop> though quite possibly there too
20:36:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm sure it should be bjarnisation ;)
20:36:05  <HMage> I know what that means :) it's just I realized that this word is common here now :)
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20:36:15  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
20:36:37  <HMage> Eddi: is that according to UK English rules?
20:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> at least that was the outcome of a recent discussion
20:37:32  <HMage> I see.
20:37:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> there was even a poll about it in the forums
20:37:45  * HMage adds "Bjarnisation"
20:37:55  <dihedral> let me try that again:
20:37:56  <dihedral> is being able to clear the password of a company from the console a bad thing?
20:38:10  <dihedral> talking about a dedicated server console
20:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> probably not...
20:38:35  <HMage> I think admin has all rights to control his game.
20:39:06  <HMage> so no, it's not a bad thing.
20:39:15  <HMage> imho
20:39:19  <dihedral> well - i had someone in today who forgot his password... came in as a spec
20:39:34  <dihedral> and asked if i was able to do something
20:39:47  <dihedral> as nobody else was playing i turned on autoclean
20:40:01  <dihedral> and turned it back off once his password was cleared
20:45:09  <dihedral> thanks
20:49:13  <peter1138> why is torcs so crap?
20:49:34  * Born_Acorn reverses the word into Scrot
20:49:41  <Born_Acorn> Which is the first bit of Scrotum
20:49:44  <Born_Acorn> hence, crap.
20:50:01  * Born_Acorn rests his case.
20:50:13  *** HMage [~HMage@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:50:16  * peter1138 resets Born_Acorn
20:50:22  * Born_Acorn rests his case.
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20:50:46  <Born_Acorn> hmm. Looks like we have a Critic in #openttd.
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20:51:51  <SpComb> zomg openttd sucks rly bad
20:52:19  <Born_Acorn> No, thats moronic. I said Critic.
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20:52:43  <Born_Acorn> Like, "Dear Sirs, I do so believe the current Space Travel abilities in OpenTTD to be poo.
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20:56:04  <Belugas> anyone can read russian in here?
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20:58:15  <Born_Acorn> I cannot.
20:58:26  <Born_Acorn> But I can pretend to and make up some words for you.
20:59:21  <Belugas> that is not exactly the answer i expected :S
20:59:23  <Born_Acorn> "Dear Mr Belugas. I like your trousers. Were they hand made by gypsies in cambodia? If so, where can I locate a similar pair? Yours sincerely, Sergej.
20:59:41  <Belugas> hehe
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21:00:16  <Born_Acorn> Thats what he's been trying to ask this whole time. Everyone just misinterprets his attempts as showing off new 32bpp graphics for some reason.
21:02:06  <Rubidium> Born_Acorn, you forgot the part where he tell the number unique colors of the trousers that are shown in the copy of the screen of the trousers
21:02:13  <Rubidium> *tells
21:02:42  <Rubidium> yuck, seems I'm inheriting bad grammar from somewhere...
21:02:51  <Born_Acorn> "Dear Men from Cambodia (19 of you today), please, please tell me where I can get them from. PLEASE."
21:03:43  <Born_Acorn> Rubidium, or when he takes generic statements that are completely irrelevant as compliments about his choice of trousers.
21:07:13  *** Osai [] has quit [Quit: Osai]
21:08:56  <ln-_> who has a VIA Epia (C3 Nehemiah)?
21:09:06  <ln-_> and is running linux on it?
21:10:25  <Belugas> [16:03] <Rubidium> yuck, seems I'm inheriting bad grammar from somewhere...  <--- I really wonder where ;)
21:11:36  *** Osai [] has joined #openttd
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21:14:31  <lolman|DamnVB> oh noes
21:15:13  <Sacro|Laptop> indeed
21:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> that stopped being funny after the 521556732nd time
21:17:03  *** lugo [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:17:56  <Sacro|Laptop> Eddi|zuHause2: ORLY?
21:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> YARLY!
21:18:29  <Sacro|Laptop> i rest my case
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21:25:18  * Maedhros has been playing -
21:25:51  <Born_Acorn> Ooh, pretty little error icon. :p
21:26:21  <Darkvater> Maedhros: :O 'error' yet it's still active?
21:26:32  <Maedhros> yeah, i don't quite know why...
21:27:21  <Maedhros> the stations don't show up in the game, so i can only assume the action 8 is loaded before the action 7 saying "panic!"
21:27:40  <Maedhros> so the stations aren't loaded, but the grf is still marked as active
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21:34:14  <peter1138> oh, it's an "error" not a "fatal" ?
21:34:20  <Maedhros> yeah
21:34:26  <Maedhros> here's the diff, anyway:
21:34:41  <Maedhros> and the openttd.grf to go with it:
21:41:30  <Maedhros> hmm, something's wrong there... first a segfault, and then a free(): invalid pointer
21:43:54  <Born_Acorn> Well, at least it's free.
21:44:03  <Born_Acorn> If it cost money, it'd be a pain.
21:45:43  <Maedhros> umm, what on earth is going on in newgrf_config.cpp:123 ?
21:45:54  <Maedhros> 		*c = *src;
21:45:55  <Maedhros> 		if (src->filename != NULL) c->filename = strdup(src->filename);
21:46:45  <peter1138> the joys of copying objects containing pointers
21:47:03  <Darkvater> what's src->filename?
21:47:15  <peter1138> "fred"
21:47:33  <Darkvater> peter1138: have you come up with any brilliant ideas lately for the sdl mixer? ;)
21:47:42  <peter1138> not touched it
21:47:55  <Darkvater>
21:48:20  <Darkvater> this might help, although 90% of int8_to_int16 is duplicated :s
21:48:24  <Darkvater> stupid volume thing
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21:49:38  <peter1138> it would help if i was currently looking into it
21:50:00  <Darkvater> I've also added a comment of perhaps caching the int16 output stream... but it takes 4x as much space as the original 8-bit one
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21:52:00  <peter1138> yeah
21:52:10  <peter1138> why can't the drivers handle the resampling... :(
21:53:10  <Darkvater> OMG
21:53:13  * Darkvater tries something
21:56:05  <Darkvater> OMG
21:56:10  <Darkvater> I am an idiot
21:56:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: KUDr * r8836 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_base.hpp:
21:56:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [YAPF] -Fix[FS#641]: Assertion: 'IsTileDepotType(depot_tile, TRANSPORT_ROAD)' failed (Karsten)
21:56:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  -don't tell that we found destination if the best direction was only guessed
21:56:18  <Darkvater> directound can resample...
21:56:26  <Sacro> Darkvater: didn't you know that?
21:56:30  <Darkvater> why am I resampling it manually
21:56:34  <Darkvater> I knew it
21:56:46  <Darkvater> just soo damn focused on doing it that I totally forgot
21:56:50  <Darkvater> peter1138: you are a GENIUS
21:56:52  <peter1138> :D
21:56:58  <Darkvater> a fucking genius
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22:00:09  <HMage> actually, the formula is 20 * log10(), not 2 * log10()
22:00:48  <HMage> increasing the volume two times is 20 * log10(2) = 6.02059991327962 dB
22:00:49  <Darkvater> HMage: well 1000 * 2 or 100 * 20 doesn't really matter :)
22:01:03  <HMage> to be pedantic. Someone will forget that it's 2, not 20
22:01:44  <Darkvater> but very well
22:02:08  <Darkvater> now that peter reminded me the sound driver can's a lot easier
22:02:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r8837 /trunk/src/road_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#626]: drive through stations did not connect to neighbouring roads (mart3p).
22:02:32  <HMage> yup, but Vista will do that 100% in software. Though in XP if hardware buffers are available that'll be done in hardware.
22:03:10  <peter1138> vista users deserve what they get
22:03:12  <Darkvater> yeah well fuck vista
22:03:32  * HMage agrees with peter1138 and DaleStan
22:03:33  <Roel> that's the spirit
22:03:33  <HMage> er
22:03:35  <HMage> and Darkvater
22:03:50  <Darkvater> HMage: it's either mixed in openttd software or vista software. Doesn't make too much differencee, although probably openttd mixer would be faster
22:03:57  <Roel> but you need a pentium 7 to install vista, so the mixing in software is fast enough..:)
22:04:17  <HMage> Darkvater: actually, XP's kernel mixer is blazingly fast.
22:04:24  <HMage> vista's mixer is even faster.
22:04:50  <HMage> but we're ralking about 1% of modern CPU's, so big deal :D
22:04:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, to mix anything in hardware, it probably has to be AES-128 encrypted 10 times ;)
22:04:59  <Darkvater> I doubt it can be faster than a mixer written _only_ to mix 8bit-mono to 16bit-stereo
22:05:02  <HMage> (of modern CPU's load)
22:05:07  <Tefad> which is about 60MHz ; )
22:05:33  <HMage> Darkvater: you won't believe, but it is :)
22:05:55  <HMage> that was the whole point of DirectSound before Vista.
22:06:10  <Darkvater> excluding hardware mixing
22:06:45  <HMage> in Vista, DirectSound is deprecated and everyone is encouraged to use XACT, due to political reasons everyone knows (Xbox:)
22:07:06  <Tefad> i heard EAX support is dropped, yes?
22:07:22  <Darkvater> peter1138: although I must say sdl_mixer is fairly crappy if it can't resample
22:07:31  <HMage> Tefad: it wasn't dropped, it's not supported in DirectSound3D. It's supported via OpenAL, for example.
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22:07:45  <peter1138> yes it is
22:08:11  <Tefad> is OpenAL counterpart to OpenGL?
22:08:23  <HMage> nope
22:08:34  <HMage> it's Loki software's child
22:08:45  <HMage> I like it better than SDL_mixer
22:08:57  <HMage> but it's open source
22:09:04  <Tefad> it is or is not
22:09:11  <HMage>
22:09:20  <Tefad> i'm there
22:10:26  <Tefad> not sure what you meant by "but it's open source"
22:10:37  <Tefad> last i checked both openal and sdl are open source
22:10:42  <HMage> er, forgive me for my english. "and"
22:10:48  <HMage> instead of "but"
22:11:01  <Maedhros> any comments on ? (doesn't segfault any more)
22:11:04  <Tefad> oh : )
22:11:18  <Tefad> and, but, or are key conjunctions
22:11:54  <Tefad> but usually counters a point
22:11:59  <Tefad> </english_lesson>
22:12:28  <HMage> Tefad: I know, it's just sometimes I fail at basic english grammar in moments I don't even realise.
22:12:31  <Darkvater> it's pretty stupid imho dropping HW directsound would not have killed them to write a wrapper around it
22:12:52  <HMage> Darkvater: dunno. Seems like political gesture.
22:12:59  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:14:00  <HMage> anyway, the way you upsample to double sample rate is _very_ wrong.
22:14:10  <Naksu> Darkvater: who+
22:14:19  <HMage> Naksu: Microsoft. In Vista.
22:14:32  <Darkvater> what the? do you need special XACT audio files to use xact or something?
22:14:47  <Belugas> Maedhros, just a though... why do you need the new glyph?  Simply putting it in red is not enough?
22:14:56  <HMage> Darkvater: you need very fresh directx redist to use XACT.
22:15:06  <Darkvater> HMage: I just copied the code from the current mixer. Probably the internal format is such
22:15:23  <Darkvater> HMage: I was just reading the docs out of interest
22:15:33  <Maedhros> Belugas: because otherwise you can't tell if there's a non-fatal error without looking through all the grfs
22:16:00  <Maedhros> e.g. the canadian stations have an error, but they aren't deactivated, so you can't tell without the icon
22:16:17  <Belugas> red, orange?  i'm not againt it, it's just that it breaks alignment
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22:17:16  <Maedhros>
22:17:32  <Maedhros> ^^ you need to be able to tell if it's activated or not, as well as whether there's an error
22:18:19  <Maedhros> personally i'm not worried by the alignment breakage, but if others are...
22:18:45  <Darkvater> it did not bother me
22:18:46  <Belugas> i agree... it is easier that wway.
22:18:52  <Belugas> no other comments
22:18:55  <Belugas> ho...
22:18:55  <Belugas> yes
22:18:59  <Belugas> bravo
22:19:00  <Belugas> ;)
22:19:04  <Darkvater> and orange is already used for non-precisely-matching grf found
22:19:14  <Maedhros> hehe, thanks
22:19:46  <Maedhros> oh yeah, the one problem with it is that the grf info can extend beyond the bottom of the window
22:21:45  <Naksu> Darkvater: err
22:22:20  <Naksu> doesnt the vista directx9 emulation thingy provide directsound?
22:22:53  <Darkvater> Naksu: it's only software emulated, not hardware
22:22:57  <peter1138> yes "emulation"
22:25:33  <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:33:03  <Belugas> good night all
22:39:28  <Maedhros> so, commit and fix the overflowing lines later?
22:41:28  <Darkvater> +const uint MESSAGE_SIZE = 1024;
22:41:31  <Darkvater> static const uint
22:42:15  <Maedhros> ok
22:43:19  <Darkvater> I doubt it needs to be that large, but ok
22:43:53  <Maedhros> hmm, the buffer in DrawStringMultiLine is only 512 bytes...
22:43:59  * Maedhros adjusts MESSAGE_SIZE
22:44:20  <Darkvater> even 512 is massive. 256 characters takes me ages to write ;p
22:45:20  <Maedhros> hehe, i can shrink it if you so desire ;)
22:45:33  <Maedhros> actually, it might be an idea to realloc it to the actual size of the string
22:47:18  <Darkvater> probably too much work
22:47:42  <Darkvater> you already know though what the maximum length can be
22:47:43  <peter1138> well
22:47:45  <Darkvater> which is 'len'
22:47:55  <peter1138> yeah, you know in advance how long it'll be
22:49:09  <Maedhros> true, although it'll get hairier when i finish support for custom messages
22:49:13  <Darkvater> hmm I wonder why the ottd mixer has support for non-11025 rates
22:50:29  <Darkvater> unless changed it's always 11025
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22:50:46  <peter1138> it doesn't have to be though
22:50:50  <peter1138> with newgrf sounds
22:51:06  <peter1138> i have no idea how well they'll work though
22:51:49  <Darkvater> so it's still 1channel 8bit, but can have different rates?
22:54:19  <Darkvater> but
22:54:22  <Darkvater> gn all
22:54:38  <Maedhros> new alternative:
22:54:43  <Maedhros> night Darkvater
22:55:34  <lolman|DamnVB> Night all :)
22:55:36  *** lolman|DamnVB [~john@] has quit [Quit: So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish]
22:56:13  <Sacro> woo yays!
23:07:31  <peter1138> Maedhros: heh, simpler :)
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23:07:31  <Maedhros> :)
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23:18:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8838 /trunk/ (9 files in 4 dirs):
23:18:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: Show newgrf error messages loaded in Action B in the newgrf gui
23:18:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: window. GRFs with an error have a warning symbol shown before the name.
23:18:34  *** XeryusTC [] has quit []
23:18:50  <peter1138> woo
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23:25:40  <peter1138> Maedhros: i think grfmsg(0, message); should be 1, not 0.
23:25:42  <peter1138> probably
23:25:48  <peter1138> no need to display it now
23:26:32  <Maedhros> mm, good point
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23:40:23  <Maedhros> good night
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