Log for #openttd on 13th March 2007:
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00:00:00  <Sacro|Laptop> hang time?
00:00:05  <Smoovious> yeah... same term for roller coasters
00:00:13  <Sacro|Laptop> when you jump when the lift starts descending
00:00:17  <Sacro|Laptop> you float for a second
00:00:44  <Bjarni> what does that have to do with sex?
00:00:45  <Smoovious> you'll fall a decent ways, but since the floor is falling with you, you can land ok without hurting yourself
00:00:46  <Bjarni> wait
00:00:56  <Bjarni> I really don't want to know >_<
00:00:57  <Smoovious> who said it had anything to do with sex?
00:00:59  <Smoovious> perv...
00:00:59  <Mortomes> We weren't discussing sex.
00:01:14  <Bjarni> only people doing it and perversions
00:01:43  <Mortomes>  <Smoovious> they're also great for jumping in the air when it starts down <--- this is when we switched topics.
00:01:45  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	plus I use it for sleeping mainly <-- then what do you do at school?
00:02:45  <Smoovious> at school? ... well, way back when I went to school, I skipped most of my classes because they bored me to tears... decided to quit wasting my time on classes, and spend it actually learning something
00:02:49  * Mortomes puts some perverted cheese under mggrant's pillow.
00:03:21  <Bjarni> pervert
00:03:40  * mggrant tells MeusH_ that Mortomes is a murderer >.>
00:03:53  * Bjarni shoots Mortomes
00:03:54  <MeusH_> die emo die
00:03:58  *** MeusH_ is now known as MeusH
00:04:05  <Mortomes> Murderer!
00:04:24  * Bjarni shoots mggrant to get rid of any wouldbe witnesses
00:05:02  *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
00:05:22  * Smoovious shoots Bjarni with paint-balls so he'll be easier to track down from the paint-trail behind him.
00:05:39  <MeusH> Bjarni! Let's camp
00:05:42  * Bjarni shoots Smoovious
00:05:59  * MeusH buys tactical shield and goes camping
00:06:09  <Bjarni> if anybody misses him, we will just say that he died during some perverted game.... everybody knows that he is a pervert
00:06:11  <Smoovious> shoulda shot me first
00:06:32  <MeusH> yeah, you wouldn't be set free by other political party :p
00:07:09  <Smoovious> ya know... its scary the fact that you can vote, believing that crap
00:07:29  <Bjarni> believing what crap?
00:07:36  <Bjarni> that politicians can be honest?
00:07:39  <Smoovious> <MeusH> yeah, you wouldn't be set free by other political party :p
00:08:01  <Mortomes> They can be?
00:08:07  <Smoovious> its no wonder politics in this country is such an embarassment
00:08:20  <Mortomes> Not just your country Smoovious :)
00:08:38  <MeusH> one is the master only one day, when voting. the rest of time one is a slave of goverment
00:08:47  <Bjarni> NL, the ratnest of EU
00:08:52  <MeusH> unless goverment changes to UPR
00:08:58  <Smoovious> the whole same-sex marriage issue actually made me ashamed to be an american... if people wanna join households that's their business and nobody elses...
00:09:00  <Bjarni> UPR?
00:09:08  <Mortomes> Yeah, we're all just a bunch of potheads :P
00:09:29  * Mortomes nods at Smoovious.
00:10:01  <MeusH> Liberal conservatism party
00:10:10  <Smoovious> I mean... I've been disgusted at a lot of things this country does... but never before, been ashamed of it, til now
00:10:31  <Bjarni> that too, but right now I was thinking about how people move into buildings that they don't own and the owners wants them to move, but can't because it's not illegal
00:11:05  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	I mean... I've been disgusted at a lot of things this country does... but never before, been ashamed of it, til now <-- why?
00:11:20  <Bjarni> you elected Bush (or did you?)
00:11:27  <Smoovious> I don't really see that as one of the big problems of our country tho... although, emminent domain on the other hand... has turned into a big joke
00:11:29  <Bjarni> but look at the alternative
00:11:37  <MeusH> it's funny that 0.5% people in Poland are gay (around 190000) and there are "over 300000" people on "equality marches" aka gay parades
00:11:41  <Smoovious> Bjarni... I already said why
00:11:51  <Smoovious> and no, I didn't elect Bush... I can't stand the guy...
00:11:59  <MeusH> it's all liar
00:12:10  <Mortomes> MeusH: That number is probably closer to 5%
00:12:15  <MeusH> Smoovious, you didn't had much choice. Al Gore is Bush's relative
00:12:21  <Smoovious> MeusH... you don't have to be gay, to support their cause
00:12:26  <Bjarni> 	<Smoovious>	and no, I didn't elect Bush... I can't stand the guy... <-- the alternative was not that good either
00:12:38  <Smoovious> of course I had a choice... you do know there are more people that run for office than just dems and reps, right?
00:12:41  <Smoovious> <-- libertarian
00:12:54  <MeusH> Smoovious, I wanted to say that in the news they say that there are 300000 gays
00:12:59  <Sacro|Laptop> mm she has nice breasts
00:13:04  <MeusH> Mortomes, you mean amount of gays?
00:13:13  <Mortomes> Yes MeusH.
00:13:16  <Smoovious> now if all you base your choice on is the sound bites on commercials between TV shows, then yeah, I can see why you'd only have the 2 choices...
00:13:26  <Bjarni> 	<Smoovious>	MeusH... you don't have to be gay, to support their cause <-- no, everybody can work on corrupting society
00:13:34  <MeusH> Smoovious, of course, but somehow they have no votes. that's why democracy sucks
00:13:46  <Smoovious> Sacro|Laptop... who?
00:13:48  <MeusH> Mortomes, that would be freaking scary
00:13:59  <MeusH> anyway, I hope that less than 0.5% of people are gay
00:14:01  <Sacro|Laptop> Smoovious: errr...actress from Van Wilder and American Pie
00:14:06  <MeusH> I wouldn't stand more gays
00:14:08  * Mortomes sighs at homophobism.
00:14:22  <MeusH> Mortomes, it's about soviets
00:14:27  <MeusH> socialists*
00:14:33  <MeusH> bah, same thing in Poland
00:14:43  <Smoovious> so what if they have no votes? you're not casting a vote hoping to be on the winning team, you vote for who you really want... and if you didn't vote that way... that's a wasted and pointless vote
00:15:23  <MeusH> Smoovious, many people are afraid to "waste" vote, so they vote on someone more popular (with worse programme)
00:15:26  *** |2rB [~Twofish@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:15:27  <Smoovious> the # of times I hear idiots say "Well, I really liked Candidate X, but I voted for Candidate Y instead cuz I thought he was gonna win and I didn't wanna waste my vote"... sadness...
00:15:35  <MeusH> yep
00:15:43  <Smoovious> Sacro|Laptop... ahh... I think I know who you mean. :)
00:15:55  <MeusH> Mortomes, it's just because gays call normal people "different"
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00:16:08  <MeusH> it's because of tv creating false image of gays
00:16:08  <Mortomes> And you don't call them different? :P
00:16:10  <Smoovious> I fully support gay men... the more gay men there are in the world, the less competition for me. :D
00:16:12  <MeusH> I do
00:16:23  <MeusH> well, gays call normal people "not normal"
00:16:39  <Bjarni> homophobism is a label used on people it doesn't fit. Now people use it on everybody who don't want to degrade the values of the culture by gay pride and stuff like that
00:16:40  <MeusH> not normal = sick (here)
00:16:42  <Mortomes> From their point of view, they aren't.
00:17:00  <MeusH> I meant global point of view
00:17:01  <Bjarni> if it continues like this, it will be considered bad not to be gay
00:17:27  <MeusH> it already is
00:17:29  <Bjarni> like "heterosexual people are gay people, who are too weak to admit it"
00:17:40  <Bjarni> or some other bullshit
00:17:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> <Smoovious> of course I had a choice... you do know there are more people that run for office than just dems and reps, right? <- funny, i just watched that old simpsons episode today (halloween special), where some aliens took the form of bill clinton and bob dole, and then the guy says: "so i'm just gonna vote for a 3rd candidate." and the aliens answer: "if you want to throw away your vote"...
00:17:52  <Sacro|Laptop> yes, because bumsex really helps the population
00:17:54  <MeusH> somewhere near UK it's illegal to call parents "mum" and "dad"
00:17:59  <MeusH> do you know what does it mean?
00:17:59  <Mortomes> I'm sorry that you believe that stereotype applies to all gay people :/
00:18:10  <Smoovious> that's just as silly as the groups who treat homophobia as something to be fixed, or a mental disorder
00:18:14  <MeusH> 3 years child HAS TO call their mum "guardian"
00:18:23  <MeusH> otherwise, 3 year child will be homophobic
00:18:33  * Smoovious grins at Eddi|zuHause3
00:18:34  *** Sacro|Laptop [Ben@adsl-83-100-157-87.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:19:12  <MeusH> this is why I think gays are fucked up, and EU is fucked up
00:19:16  <Smoovious> MeusH... that's just silly too
00:19:37  <Mortomes> And it's overgeneralizing
00:19:57  <Mortomes> "Gay person X says this, therefore all gay persons say it"
00:20:06  <Smoovious> see what I mean? we're all getting way too uptight and trying to control how everyone lives their lives and tries to make people grow up a way we want instead of how they want etc... and it just keeps getting worse and worse, and the more crap we make illegal, the more ciminals we end up having, and it is just silly
00:20:43  <MeusH> or the other thing: tolerance. Once upon a time, tolerance meant neutrality towards other group. I could just ignore them. And that was tolerance. However, now tolerance is forcing people to like the other group
00:20:49  <Smoovious> hell, people getting convicted of non-violent drug crimes get, on average, more time than murder! it is insane
00:20:49  <MeusH> being neutral is called homophobia
00:21:47  <Bjarni> actually I consider being gay a serious issue for the country. They tend to have higher risk of getting AIDS and other STDs (puts a heavy load on the hospitals). Certain groups of strait people does the same
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00:22:38  <Bjarni> AIDS could be completely wiped out in no time if people would just stop fucking strangers... but no, certain people wants to fuck all the time with everybody
00:22:51  <ln-> (not the ones playing openttd though)
00:22:54  <MeusH> good point Bjarni
00:22:57  <MeusH> lol ln- :D
00:23:41  <Naksu> Bjarni: AIDS never would have happened if people weren't incredibly stupid
00:23:43  <Smoovious> well, if we didn't fuck strangers, eventually, you'd just be left with fucking family... and that just wouldn't work out in the long term
00:23:46  <Mortomes> Like I said, I'm sorry you believe in the gay stereotype :/
00:24:34  <MeusH> Smoovious, why not?
00:24:40  <MeusH> isn't your wife your family?
00:24:52  <Bjarni> 	<Smoovious>	well, if we didn't fuck strangers, eventually, you'd just be left with fucking family... and that just wouldn't work out in the long term <-- I was talking about one night stands, not finding somebody to get married to
00:25:09  <Smoovious> just look at the Utah mormons... (which btw, is a lousy example of polygamy, but whenever the news wants to talk about what's wrong with polygamy, they use them as the example... and the problem there isn't polygamy... it is the abuse and child rape and inbreeding and everything else... but polygamy gets blamed)
00:25:24  <Mortomes> You're implying that heterosexuals don't have one night stands? :S
00:25:26  <Smoovious> (might as well blame heterosexual marriage for domestic abuse)
00:25:36  <Bjarni> <Mortomes>	You're implying that heterosexuals don't have one night stands? :S <-- no
00:25:51  <Bjarni> 	<Bjarni>	actually I consider being gay a serious issue for the country. They tend to have higher risk of getting AIDS and other STDs (puts a heavy load on the hospitals). Certain groups of strait people does the same
00:25:52  <Smoovious> Bjarni... I said nothing about getting married to
00:26:01  <Smoovious> well, up until the polygamy comment
00:26:22  <Mortomes> Then why do you seperate gays from "Certain groups of straight people"?
00:26:31  <Bjarni> I didn't
00:26:48  <MeusH> that's why I like liberal conservatism.  Liberal means little (or none at all) welfare, and freedom in general. You can do whatever you want, provided you don't hurt anyone... and here comes conservatist part: it should be accepted by public norms and christianity.  So one is not restricted by all EU laws and restrictions. A farmer can produce any amount of milk he wants (EU restricts it. EU restricts milk production for Poland more than for Germ
00:26:49  <MeusH> any). But a farmer can't rape (non christian), can't be gay (non christian), can't kill (hurts others)
00:26:58  <Smoovious> gays aren't part of "Certain groups of straight people" to begin with... how can you seperate them from them?
00:26:59  <Bjarni> we could also call them "people with problematic morale" if you like
00:27:18  <MeusH> Smoovious, it's gays who separate themselves
00:27:26  <Mortomes> You mean "People with a morale that differs from mine"?
00:27:42  <Naksu> cool, thoughtcrime
00:27:43  <Bjarni> but it's a well known fact that the % of gay people that has a poor morale is much greater than the % of strait people with poor morale
00:27:44  <MeusH> I would have not problems with them if they didn't force me to like them (aka today's tolerance)
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00:28:32  <MeusH> but they force me to like them and their disgusting gay sex. and I don't like to be forced to do sth
00:29:00  <Mortomes> MeusH: Believe it or not, the avarage gay person won't force you to like their gay sex.
00:29:04  <Mortomes> *average
00:29:14  <Smoovious> Bjami... and that is hardly suprising... if you're part of a group that gets trodden down, is a target for violence, and has the blame thrown at you for aids etc, as well as all the other crap that heteros do to harm gays, simply because who they're attracted to, your morale would be piss poor too
00:29:15  <Bjarni> When the doctors learned how AIDS spreads, they started mapping who people had been with. It was possible with the few strait people, but the gay men had been with up to more than 1000 people.... they gave up tracing all of them and everybody they had been with
00:29:16  <MeusH> Mortomes, that's just right!
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00:29:35  <MeusH> Mortomes, it's "gay society" or just television who tells me to like it
00:29:51  <Mortomes> Don't blame the gays for "gay society" or television!
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00:30:03  <MeusH> so who shall I blame?
00:30:28  <Bjarni> so who should be blame for the gay issues?
00:30:33  <Bjarni> strait people?
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00:30:35  <MeusH> Bjarni, think evolutionary (and liveral-conservative): they will die soon
00:30:37  <Bjarni> kids?
00:30:38  <Smoovious> blame the individuals who don't practice responsible sex... regardless of orientation... it isn't a gay or straight issue...
00:30:39  <MeusH> AIDS will get rid of them
00:30:41  <Bjarni> animals?
00:30:50  <Smoovious> the bible thumping crowd only want uyou to believe it is
00:31:01  <MeusH> sadly, AIDS may spread to non-gay people :(
00:31:11  <Smoovious> _MAY_?!?!
00:31:16  <MeusH> will
00:31:17  <MeusH> sorry
00:31:21  <Smoovious> dude... do a google search on Africa sometime
00:31:22  <Mortomes> And gay people can still reproduce, my father being a prime example of that :P
00:31:26  <MeusH> Smoovious, I don't have anything to someone having anal sex
00:31:37  <MeusH> I have something against two males having sex
00:31:44  <Mortomes> Why MeusH?
00:32:06  <MeusH> Because two males having sex are gays
00:32:09  <Smoovious> why would you have anything against it? what does 2 guys wanting to be with each other... have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with YOU?
00:32:15  <Bjarni> The African AIDS problem will be history eventually... but I fear it's when there are no more to be contaminated anymore
00:32:19  <Mortomes> I'm sure there are people out there currently having gay sex, how does this in any way affect you?
00:32:41  <MeusH> Besides disgusting me, nothing
00:32:48  <Smoovious> so be disgusted...
00:32:48  <Bjarni> everything
00:32:49  <Mortomes> You don't have to watch.
00:33:01  <Bjarni> they are more likely to get ill and then I have to pay for that
00:33:07  <Smoovious> you don't have a right to be protected from disgust or to not be offended...
00:33:10  <MeusH> hence I said I am tolerant. But gay activists (yeah, that's the word. not tv, not society, but activists) tell me to like it
00:33:33  <Mortomes> Like I said, don't blame the average gay person for gay extremists.
00:33:38  * ln- is disgusted by the idea of fat and ugly people having (straight) sex
00:33:42  <MeusH> I would be offended if someone told me to like anal sex, or to wear green trousers
00:33:44  <Mortomes> That's just putting people in a box.
00:33:48  <Smoovious> hear hear, ln-!!!
00:34:00  <Smoovious> spandex should require a permit
00:34:07  <Bjarni> yeah
00:34:18  <Bjarni> good idea
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00:34:29  <Bjarni> one that can only be given for medical reasons
00:34:32  <Naksu> 02:32 <@Bjarni> The African AIDS problem will be history eventually... but I fear it's when there are no more to be contaminated anymore
00:34:39  <Smoovious> and they shouldn't make thongs in sizes bigger than a small
00:34:49  <MeusH> so you can see I would be offended by any form of forcing me to like something. Gay or not, forcing is bad.
00:34:54  <Naksu> that'll be the day when everyone with aids = dead
00:34:56  <Naksu> not just in africa
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00:35:16  <MeusH> So I repeat, permit everything that doesn't hurt others and is withing traditional norms
00:35:33  <Naksu> thanks to the delightful effects of evolution
00:35:39  <Smoovious> MeusH... you're not being forced to like them... like or dislike whoever you want to... but that line is drawn, that you still have to treat people with respect... don't have to like someone to treat them with respect
00:35:41  <MeusH> if someone likes drugs - go ahead, let him die
00:35:47  <Bjarni> no
00:35:53  <MeusH> if someone likes being gay, let him fuck males
00:35:55  <Bjarni> drugs hurts everybody
00:36:01  <MeusH> but it is him who will go to hell
00:36:03  <Smoovious> fuck traditional norms
00:36:05  <Bjarni> when buying drugs, you fund terrorism
00:36:14  <Bjarni> and organised crime
00:36:21  <MeusH> just don't force me to like drugs or gays
00:36:31  <Mortomes> Right MeusH, that's perfectly fine.
00:36:33  <Smoovious> like or dislike whoever or whatever you want to
00:36:35  <MeusH> Bjarni, that's the other issue, true
00:36:57  <Smoovious> Bjarni... boy, you must be a propogandist's wet dream
00:37:06  <Mortomes> (How perverted)
00:37:15  <MeusH> Smoovious, I disrespect them. But that's my private life. I am tolerant.
00:37:25  * Bjarni think that everybody with drugs should be jailed for terror funding
00:37:30  <MeusH> If I were not tolerant, I'd be in jail I think
00:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> reminds me of that "terror free gas station"
00:37:51  *** mode/#openttd [-o Bjarni] by ChanServ
00:37:57  <Bjarni> wtf
00:38:00  <Mortomes> I see chanserv disagrees with you Bjarni :D
00:38:03  <Smoovious> I think tolerant has at some point, come to be taken as you had to like them and accept them, and it isn't true... tolerant is more about not trying to drag them by a chain behind your pickup on a gravel road anymore
00:38:14  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
00:38:16  <Bjarni> who did that???
00:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> it was in some link someone posted here, i believe
00:38:44  <MeusH> Smoovious, if I understand correctly what you said, then we think the same
00:38:47  <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... I remember seeing something like that station in the news a few months back
00:38:53  <Smoovious> MeusH... I believe we do
00:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> somewhere in america there opened a gas station that only offers fuel made from oil not from "terrorist" countries
00:39:50  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	Bjarni... boy, you must be a propogandist's wet dream <-- so it's propaganda to be against terror funding?
00:40:15  <Smoovious> feel how you want to feel... but if that feeling brings you past the point of harming someone else, then that's where the line has been crossed
00:40:40  <MeusH> exactly
00:40:41  <Smoovious> Bjarni... it is propoganda to equate buying an Oz of grass to funding terrorism
00:40:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: propaganda is not about _what_ you say, it's about _how_ you say it
00:40:55  <MeusH> my point is that gay activists move the point towards liking gay
00:41:12  <MeusH> gay activist would say I'm not tolerant, because I don't speak loudly "gay okay"
00:41:51  <Smoovious> MeusH... yeah, well, whaddyawannado about them... they're on a mission... >grins<
00:42:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> imho, i have nothing against gay people (* well, nothing effective :p *), i just think they should keep that to themselves
00:42:45  * Mortomes nods at Eddi|zuHause3.
00:43:09  * Smoovious just remembered, "Oh, right Heroes isn't on tonight..."
00:43:16  <Mortomes> 23 april!
00:43:17  <MeusH> Eddi|zuHause3, so are you against bunch of gays walking on streets, waving rainbow flags, and blocking traffic?
00:43:45  <Mortomes> MeusH: Just like people attending any other kind of festival would?
00:43:48  <Sacro> MeusH: depends, can we run them over?
00:43:59  <Bjarni> there is one issue nobody said anything about. When children becomes a certain age, they start to get interested in the opposite sex. It always appears to be tricky to speak to "one of them". Now gay people in the media tells the children that if it's not easy for them, then it's because they are gay so they try to convince strait young people that they are gay
00:44:02  <MeusH> Sacro, sure :D
00:44:08  <MeusH> but that would be a crime :(
00:44:14  <Sacro> MeusH: lets face it, darwin wins
00:44:20  <Sacro> they aint procreating
00:44:21  <MeusH> yup
00:44:26  <MeusH> they spread diseases
00:44:30  <MeusH> deseases*
00:44:31  <Mortomes> Bjarni: Funny how I never had a problem with that, despite my father "coming out of the closet" when I was 11.
00:44:55  <MeusH> Mortomes, we don't have people on festivals blocking streets
00:45:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> MeusH: i have never encountered this kind of people anywhere
00:45:33  <MeusH> it's like manifestation, or protestation. They insist on city councils to allow them to walk from street A to street B and manifest their views
00:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not like i live in Köln
00:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> :p
00:45:52  <Smoovious> there is a school of thought... I don't have references on unfortunately... that look at homosexuality as being part of the evolutionary cycle... as population grows more than supplies can sustain it, as a means of controlling population growth...
00:45:52  <MeusH> That's just useless to me. I think they should manifest their views at home
00:45:57  <Bjarni> Mortomes: that explains your fuck up views... you are not grown enough to see flaws in your own parents.... lot's of people never reach that level
00:46:10  <Smoovious> personally, I think a lot of it is crap... but probably some truth to it in there somewhere
00:46:35  <Smoovious> either way you wanna think of it, we are quickly approaching a population crisis...
00:46:40  <Smoovious> China is already there
00:46:44  <Smoovious> who's next
00:46:50  <MeusH> Smoovious, I think that human population doesn't come to that point
00:47:10  <MeusH> People would die out of hunger first than gay themselves
00:47:15  * Sacro thinks we should start the manufacture of Soylent Green
00:47:25  <Smoovious> Mortomes... my dad never came out of the closet... lost respect for him over it... he was bi... didn't understand why he felt he should be ashamed about it
00:47:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> no Heroes... well, i kinda was expecting that...
00:47:37  <MeusH> and if there is similiar amount of women and men, despite starvation, it's no problem with being straight
00:48:17  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	Mortomes... my dad never came out of the closet... lost respect for him over it... he was bi <--- was? did he die? of AIDS?
00:48:21  <MeusH> guys, what does "to come out of the closet" mean? To have a gay sex (in closet)?
00:48:36  <Sacro> MeusH: its a term for coming out
00:48:44  <Smoovious> Bjarni... no you ignorant fuck... he died of lung cancer, due to smoking
00:48:46  <MeusH> what does mean to come out?
00:49:00  <Sacro> MeusH: to tell the world what you really are
00:49:03  <Smoovious> MeusH... when you don't keep it a secret anymore
00:49:08  <Bjarni> hey I'm nowhere ignorant
00:49:20  <Smoovious> not so much about coming out and telling everyone... but no longer pretending you weren't
00:49:24  <MeusH> thank you
00:49:50  <Mortomes> Bjarni: You're getting pretty close to offending me, quite impressive might I add.
00:50:13  <Mortomes> Eddi|zuHause3: It's on hiatus until april 23 :(
00:50:22  <Bjarni> ...
00:50:37  <Bjarni> is it offensive to state that I'm not ignorant?
00:50:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: that's the funny thing about ignorant people, they are too ignorant to notice they are ignorant
00:50:52  <Mortomes> <Bjarni> Mortomes: that explains your fuck up views... you are not grown enough to see flaws in your own parents.... lot's of people never reach that level
00:51:06  <Bjarni> oh that
00:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> so saying "i'm not ignorant" bears exactly no information
00:51:13  <Mortomes> That, and
00:51:14  <Mortomes> <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	Mortomes... my dad never came out of the closet... lost respect for him over it... he was bi <--- was? did he die? of AIDS?
00:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's like "i'm not insane"
00:51:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> or "i'm not stupid"
00:51:38  * Smoovious nods agreement with Mortomes
00:52:49  <Smoovious> you picked out the fact that my dad died... and that he was bi... and right off the bat, you jump to aids... as if gay people only die of aids... gay people die of everything that straight people die of
00:53:05  <Bjarni> I didn't mean it like that
00:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> Smoovious: i'm not even sure if there's a startdate for that in germany at all
00:53:13  <Smoovious> not only was it ignorant, it was a grossly insensitive thing to say... so yes, that makes you an ignorant fuck.
00:53:13  <Mortomes> Yes, it's overgeneralizing and putting people in a box.
00:53:30  <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3: startdate?
00:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> Heroes
00:53:56  * Mortomes just torrents it, best piece of tv I've seen in years.
00:53:56  <Bjarni> I asked if he died and then if it were AIDS... so would that be offending if he was strait?
00:54:04  <Smoovious> oh... hehehe... sorry, jumping back and forth
00:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's what you get for having off-topic discussions ;)
00:55:14  <Smoovious> Bjarni... you didn't ask what did he die of... you asked if he died of aids... which pretty much expresses your bias... why would you ask about a hetero person, differently than a non-hetero person... if he was hetero, assuming you cared enough to ask about it at all, you would have just asked 'what did he die of?'... but since he wasn't hetero... you go right to aids...
00:55:21  <Smoovious> anbd you should be ashamed of yourself for it
00:55:40  <MeusH> he just asked a question. that's true that gays tend to dies of AIDS more frequent than the others, but that's also true that death of your father was a great loss and should not be talked about
00:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> usually, big series like that start around 1 year later in germany
00:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> but mystery series did not do well in germany since X-Files
00:56:19  <Bjarni> <--- was? did he die? of AIDS? <--- notice 3 ?. First a notice of was, then a question if he died and then a question of a possible cause
00:57:02  <Smoovious> MeusH... oh bull... the death of my "dad"... (not my father... don't even know where that worthless piece of flesh is)... was not a great loss... he was a bastard... and the news of his finally dying was a great relief to me and a weight off my shoulders
00:57:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> so the channel that shows mystery series like X-Files and Lost did not buy the rights for Heroes
00:57:28  <Smoovious> Bjarni... you don't even get it enough to understand that you don't get it...
00:57:42  <Bjarni> what's the difference between a father and a dad?
00:57:42  <ln-> that's till like asking "oh, your mother has been ill lately? is she a whore?"
00:58:03  <Smoovious> Bjarni... father is the one who spawned me... dad is the one who (tried ineptly) to raise me
00:58:18  <Mortomes> biological vs the one who raised yo... what Smoovious said :)
00:58:24  <Smoovious> father is genetic... dad/pop is relational
00:58:57  <Bjarni> <ln->	that's till like asking "oh, your mother has been ill lately? is she a whore?" <-- point well taken
00:58:58  <Bjarni> sorry
00:58:59  <Smoovious> it is just that the majority of people don't make the distinction since they don't need to... and don't really understand on a personal level, they aren't interchangeable for everyone
00:59:18  <MeusH> according to new EU laws, Smoovious is homophobic. He should say "guardian" instead
00:59:30  <Bjarni> good point
00:59:41  <Smoovious> oh no... my guardian was a great dude... I still hang out with him sometimes
00:59:43  <Mortomes> Good thing he's not a euro then :)
00:59:59  <Bjarni> like that would make it better?
01:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> baby's first words have been "mama" and "papa" for at least 10 thousand years
01:00:19  <Bjarni> I mean not being European
01:00:45  <Bjarni> where is it written that we are not allowed to use mom and dad anymore?
01:00:48  <MeusH> goodnight
01:00:50  <MeusH> cya later :)
01:00:52  *** MeusH [] has quit [Quit: bye - quit]
01:00:59  <Bjarni> do anybody have official sources of this?
01:01:00  <Smoovious> can't believe I'm watching deal or no deal...
01:01:03  <Mortomes> No, the not being euro thing was just a joke ;)
01:01:17  * Mortomes attempts to lighten up the conversation.
01:01:37  <Bjarni> good news: it can only go in one direction from here
01:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> ?
01:02:11  <Mortomes> Smoovious: Don't do it.
01:02:11  <Smoovious> and all this because of a quote
01:02:36  <Smoovious> speaking of which...
01:02:49  <Mortomes> hehe
01:02:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: general rule, if you think it cannot get any worse, it can
01:02:53  <Bjarni> 	<Smoovious>	can't believe I'm watching deal or no deal... <-- you know there is an off switch on your TV, right?
01:03:16  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: yeah.... IRC never fails to make odd people appear out of nowhere
01:03:54  <Smoovious> Bjarni... no there isn't... it is one of those models that only work with the remote...
01:04:13  <Mortomes> Try the one on the remote then ;)
01:04:37  <Bjarni> unplug it from the wall
01:04:41  <Bjarni> hmm
01:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd yank the power cable
01:04:49  <Smoovious> Mortomes... but then I'd have to reach for it... and there isn't anything else on right now worth the effort... easier to just tune it out...
01:04:59  <Smoovious> at least there are a lot of femmes in nice dresses to look at
01:05:07  <Bjarni> but then you will support Bush's great plan for conserving energy
01:05:23  <Bjarni> but I guess Al Gore wants you to conserve energy as well
01:05:23  <Smoovious> I do my part... I never turn on the lights
01:05:41  <Mortomes> And increasing general timezone confusion for a good 2 weeks!
01:05:41  <Smoovious> hardly use the furnace either... the 3 computers keeps the room bright and warm enough for me
01:06:00  <Smoovious> 3...
01:06:07  <Smoovious> in the fall, it'll be 1
01:06:15  <Bjarni> ...
01:06:16  <Mortomes> And that's when the cold comes!
01:06:33  <Bjarni> do you really need 3 computers?
01:07:00  <Smoovious> well, if we're talking need, I don't need any of them... don't need the tv either...
01:07:16  <Mortomes> I hope he doesn't need them after fall.
01:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> then burn them!
01:07:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> frees a good deal of energy ;)
01:07:53  <Smoovious> one of them I use as the mail/print/file server for the LAN... mom has her computer downstairs, I got 2 others up here... the server doesn't have a keyboard or monitor on it...
01:08:32  <Smoovious> burn them? you know how many toxins it would release into the atmosphere to just burn a computer? jeez... haven't you heard of recycling?
01:08:56  <Bjarni> it's nice to be able to turn off your TV
01:09:03  <Bjarni> my TV burned :(
01:09:10  <Smoovious> speaking of releasing toxins into the atmosphere, I need a smoke... brb
01:09:14  <Bjarni> then I have been without a TV ever since
01:09:26  * Mortomes gives Smoovious a pack of lung cancer.
01:09:41  <Bjarni> well, did the TV watching on the computer. A tuner is way cheaper than a TV
01:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> i do that without burning down a tv first
01:12:18  <Bjarni> I was considering switching to a tuner at the same time as we started getting a DVB signal... after like a week of wondering, the TV decided for me
01:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, that was before i learned how i can get all interesting TV shows, without commercials, in original language, one year earlier
01:12:51  <Mortomes> It's scary when your electronic equipment makes your decisions for you.
01:13:08  * Smoovious returneth
01:13:09  <Mortomes> Hehe Eddi|zuHause3, dubbed television sucks :S
01:13:38  <Smoovious> * Mortomes gives Smoovious a pack of lung cancer. <--- just doing my part to ease the overpopulation problem
01:13:48  <Mortomes> Excellent :)
01:14:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> both insurance companies as well as taxes would take a really huge hit if suddenly all people stopped smoking
01:15:15  <Smoovious> yeah... Michigan has a /pack tax on cigarettes, and there's talk about raising them again... we already pay the 2nd highest cig tax in the country...
01:15:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> the retirement system has already huge problems because of "overaging" of people
01:15:49  <Smoovious> state government is disproportionately taxing the minority groups when it is the entire state that should be compensating
01:15:59  * Smoovious nods to Eddi|zuHause3
01:16:32  <Bjarni>  is not enough
01:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> so if all people stopped smoking, and thus paying less taxes, they will live on average like 7 years longer, recieve more out of retirement funds, and require more medical assistence
01:16:42  <Bjarni>  would be an interesting experiment
01:16:48  *** HMage [~HMage@] has quit [Quit: HMage]
01:16:53  <Digitalfox> Here in Portugal are major telecomunications ISP ( Portugal Telecom ) is starting tests for IPTV (Triple Play = TV + Phone + Net ) and 100Mbps VDSL2.. Any people here with IPTV or 100Mbps?
01:16:57  <Smoovious> social security was fine back when it was started, and they had so many people working to support so few retirees... but now all those boomers are retirees, with a higher life expectancy... going to crush the economy
01:17:30  <Bjarni> 	<Eddi|zuHause3>	so if all people stopped smoking, and thus paying less taxes, they will live on average like 7 years longer, recieve more out of retirement funds, and require more medical assistence <--- are you sure about the last one. Smokers are really expensive on the hospitals
01:17:33  * Smoovious just completely ignores Bjarni's comment
01:18:14  <Smoovious> smokers also pay more in insurance and other related costs too...
01:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, never trust a statistic you did not manipulate yourself :p
01:18:33  <Smoovious> you're not going to make everything in life balance evenly... no matter how hard you try
01:18:45  <Smoovious> there is always going to be some group using more, and some using less...
01:19:47  <Bjarni> 	<Smoovious>	smokers also pay more in insurance and other related costs too...  <--- here the system is based on tax money, not insurance so smokers with really low income will still be treated, but then the rest of us pays for it
01:20:13  <Smoovious> everyone should receive basic treatment...
01:20:13  <Bjarni> well, the same goes for smokers with high income, but then they paid more tax
01:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> the green party here once mentioned something about 5DM/liter fuel, that was like 1 week before the election, they immediately lost like half of their voters ;)
01:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> (prices were around 1,50DM/liter, i think)
01:21:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> now they are 1,50EUR ;)
01:21:23  <Smoovious> hell, the health care system would actually save money in the long term if it paid for regular checkups (one reimbursed per year), than if it only paid for emergency care... you have to be bad enough for the gov't to cover it... and by then, the costs of treating it are through the roof, compared to being able to prevent it, or tackle it early
01:21:26  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	everyone should receive basic treatment...  <-- I didn't say anything about basic treatment. Everything here is paid by tax money and you can't get insurance because the hospitals will not give you anything better because you want to play
01:21:28  <Smoovious> makes no sense
01:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's around 3DM
01:21:48  <Bjarni> but everything come at a price. We have the highest tax level in the world :(
01:22:09  <Bjarni> the income tax is up to 68% (depending on how much you earn)
01:22:16  <Bjarni> vat is 25% for everything
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01:22:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think in germany everyone is forced to have medical insurance
01:23:12  <Mortomes> Same here Eddi|zuHause3
01:23:16  <Mortomes> (Netherlands)
01:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> but if you are unemployed, the state pays for it
01:23:20  <Smoovious> yeah, that high a rate is just crushing your economy... a lower tax rate would leave more for people to spend,,, moving money around faster, generating more taxes, and more revenue, and bring in more money overall
01:23:51  <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause3>	the green party here once mentioned something about 5DM/liter fuel <-- I remember that. It's an interesting idea
01:24:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's a really unproven statement, Smoovious
01:24:08  <Bjarni> would clear the roads for hummers and similar cars that uses way too much fuel
01:25:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i would be totally for it, if in return cars that use much less fuel would get much less expensive
01:25:11  <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... not really unproven... currency only has value when it is spent... a dollar sitting in a jar for a year, has no spending power... but that same dollar changing hands 100 times during the year, has a spending power of 0... and the tax off of each transaction accumulates
01:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, i don't buy that argument
01:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not about how much tax you pay
01:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> but about how that tax is used
01:27:03  <Smoovious> the more money taken out of a person's hand, means that person has less to spend... won't spend as much, won't generate as much sales tax, and probably won't buy a lot of the things they'd otherwise buy... it has a cumulative effect, and ends up slowing down the economy
01:27:05  <Bjarni> it's not way off. Giving more money to the population will make them spend more, but it's not always a good thing
01:27:57  <Rubidium> ofcourse what Europeans spend in VAT Americans spend in interest ;)
01:28:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, Smoovious, that tax money is not "lost" to the system, the tax money is also spent somewhere, and that means somebody earns it
01:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> who then has money to spend
01:28:18  <Bjarni> like here right now. Our economical boom mean that it's tricky to hire enough people. Even though the state can afford to lower the taxes, they decide not to because it would really hurt the economy to give people more money right now
01:28:32  <Smoovious> if people aren't spending/buying as much, you have less money going to the companies that employ people, and so they can't support as many employees as they otherwise could... which ends up bringing in less in income tax... and less people employed, means less people able to contribute to the economy, and it just keeps going on that cycle until something breaks
01:28:42  <Bjarni> instead they pay off their depts (which is always a good thing to do... saves interests)
01:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> like around my city
01:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> the university (which is mostly tax-payed)
01:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> is the biggest employer
01:29:14  <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... it isn't about the quantity of money... as much as the movement of money... the faster the money moves, the more the gov't takes in on the rake... er, the tax
01:29:21  <Bjarni> if people spend more, they will also spend more on imported goods, which is never good
01:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> germany has a big problem with tourism
01:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> because most people go to italy, or mallorca, or wherever
01:30:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> and hardly any come into germany
01:30:29  <Bjarni> Smoovious: yeah I get that part, but if people move around money faster, the odds for more of the money will leave the country will increase
01:30:46  <Smoovious> think of the gov't as a casino... the casino makes more money, the faster people are gambling... they don't rely on individual wins or losses... but the long term odds...
01:30:47  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: why should I go to Germany?
01:30:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> so all germans that go to southern countries spend all their hard earned money there
01:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> and not much money is kept in germany
01:31:10  <Smoovious> Bjarni... international trade is a different issue
01:31:11  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	think of the gov't as a casino <-- US way of thinking
01:32:10  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	Bjarni... international trade is a different issue <-- no because if you lower the tax, people will get more money and then they will start to spend it and they will buy more stuff like cars, electronics and other imported goods
01:32:25  <Bjarni> so you can't take those two issues apart like they are unrelated
01:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> Smoovious: again, tax money is also spent, and thus also gets spent more often, it also does its circles, it just circles around other routes
01:32:44  <Smoovious> that is still a different issue... if you don't want imported goods, don't make a trade agreement with the other country
01:32:47  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: why should I take a vacation in Germany?
01:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: i have no idea
01:32:59  <Bjarni> see
01:33:02  <Bjarni> :p
01:33:13  <Smoovious> but if you're going to have trade with another country, you're just going to have to accept the consequence of that... trade with another country...
01:33:54  <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... the difference in the routes is the routes through the government don't generate the taxes they would otherwise...
01:33:56  <Bjarni> it's not like we don't want imported goods. The issue is when a country increases imports significantly without increasing exports.
01:34:07  <Smoovious> gov't employees don't pay the same taxes... for one
01:34:13  <Bjarni> that's bad for business
01:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> Smoovious: it's all about the old discussion "free market" [US] vs. "social market" [EU]
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01:34:50  <Smoovious> Bjarni... you can't force the other country to buy the crap you're producing... if you wanna sell more, make a better product
01:34:51  <Rubidium> ofcourse getting paid much less because the gov't doesn't get much money means that gov't employees have to spend less
01:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> each has their very own advantages and disadvantages
01:35:04  <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... no disagreement there...
01:35:34  <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... neither is necessarily better than the other... contrary to what our politicos and businessmen would have us believe
01:35:45  <Bjarni> I'm telling you: US considers this in the White House as well. Odds are that they do not talk as loudly about it as we do in Europe, but they want to export as much as possible and import as little as possible... that's how it works for all countries
01:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> and being a very socialistic influenced person, i like the "social market" version better
01:36:05  <Smoovious> Bjarni... oh it is just as loud... it is no secret
01:36:15  <Bjarni> ok
01:36:22  <Smoovious> Bjarni... the trade deficit is a frequently discussed topic
01:36:28  <Smoovious> especially, with China
01:37:14  <Bjarni> EU put an import tax on Chinese stuff... now that's a really bad idea to do that overnight
01:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> i remember there being an issue about import limits on textiles
01:38:25  <Smoovious> we should raise tarriffs on China as well... at LEAST until China starts playing by the same rules... they have very tight controls on imports, yet have no problem exporting to the hilt
01:38:25  <Bjarni> Northern Europe specialised in designing quality stuff and then make Chinese people to produce it because people will not pay the price needed to pay local people to produce it so it's hurting the economy here
01:38:54  <Smoovious> hell, we can't even send them back tons of their empty shipping containers... they don't think it worth the transport costs to ship back the empty containers so they just get abandoned here
01:39:16  <Bjarni> then EU told us to just buy our stuff in southern EU... but they aren't producing what we want (neither quality or price)
01:39:41  <Smoovious> and then there is the whole outsourcing crap going on here...
01:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's so funny, for that huge dam they build in china, they need like 20 turbines to generate current, so they buy 5 turbines from germany, and then rebuild the other 15 from those models ;p
01:39:58  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	hell, we can't even send them back tons of their empty shipping containers... they don't think it worth the transport costs to ship back the empty containers so they just get abandoned here <--- then take them and use them on the railroads and stuff
01:40:21  * Smoovious blinks.
01:40:22  <Bjarni> reduces the costs for replacing worn out containers
01:40:24  <Smoovious> use them for what?
01:40:34  <Bjarni> transporting stuff
01:40:35  <Smoovious> they aren't our property
01:40:41  <Mortomes> They still have railroads in the US?! :P
01:40:48  <Smoovious> and stuff being transported in containers, are already in containers
01:41:12  <Bjarni> Mortomes: yes... they move 40% of their land freight transport on rails... way more than EU
01:41:17  <Smoovious> from time to time, the abandoned containers are declared abandoned and sold at auction to junkyards for recycling
01:41:43  <Smoovious> tho I think there were a couple guys who were assembling them and turning them into cheap housing... they did a good job too... looked kinda cool
01:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, and EU has huge problems because most freight is transported on roads
01:41:59  <Bjarni> you could make a law about abandoned containers so you can lawfully claim ownership
01:42:02  <Smoovious> Bjarni... well, we got longer distances to cover...
01:42:12  <Smoovious> don't need a seperate law
01:42:19  <Bjarni> it's not a distance issue
01:42:23  <Smoovious> it just takes time
01:42:25  <Smoovious> it is here
01:42:28  <Bjarni> it's a fucked up policy issue
01:42:32  <Smoovious> nope
01:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> he means our policy ;)
01:42:57  <glx> trucks transport stuff from estonia to spain
01:43:05  <Smoovious> we still transport a significant portion of are cargo on rails because the # of trucks it would take is just rediculous on many levels
01:43:11  <Smoovious> oh ok
01:44:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> all attempts to get more cargo on rails have basically failed
01:44:10  * Smoovious nods.
01:44:19  <Bjarni> like if you want to move freight to this area, you need to either use a lorry all the way or move move the freight into the middle of a city and then move it to a lorry so it can drive to the destination outside of the city
01:44:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> they even tried transporting trucks on trains
01:45:03  <Smoovious> but on the bright side... your passenger rail is right up there, while ours is deplorable... hopefully tho it'll pick up again since the airports are getting so crowded... and who wants to keep showing up 2-3 hours early at the airport for a flight
01:45:08  <Bjarni> they even tried transporting rail wagons on trucks to make the railroad able to move the cargo directly to the customer... that didn't work either
01:45:44  <Smoovious> we do road-railers too...
01:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> Smoovious: but THAT is (partly) a distance issue
01:46:13  <Smoovious> at one point, they tried to make dual-use trailers that could hook up both to a semi-tractor and a train... but that didn't last very long
01:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> i would not want to go from new york to los angeles by train
01:46:28  <Smoovious> container freight just took off
01:46:47  <Bjarni> I like how the Swedes managed to get the rail network to work between Stockholm and Göteborg.... after they started using bullettrains, they can battle the airlines on both time and price
01:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i would also not take the transsibirian railway...
01:47:26  <Bjarni> I know two guys, who did that
01:47:32  <Bjarni> as a vacation
01:47:43  <Bjarni> and then they took a plane to get home afterwards
01:47:44  <Smoovious> Eddi|zuHause3... partly distance, true... partly the state of the tracks as well... a lot of people flying, are going on short flights... like, going from here to Chicago is a 45-min flight... but you figure in the 2-3 hour wait time ahead of time... plus the good chance your flight will cancel for weather or be late... had you taken the train, you could
01:47:49  <Smoovious> have arrived at the same time
01:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> where is "here"?
01:49:03  <Smoovious> most of the track in the use is only rated for 75mph, tops... passenger or freight... there is a high-speed corridor in the northeast part of the country... I think they get around 200mph
01:49:07  <Smoovious> <-- Mighigan
01:49:34  <Smoovious> -g+c
01:49:57  <Mortomes> You type on a dvorak keyboard? :)
01:50:21  <Smoovious> nope... qwerty
01:50:38  <Mortomes> Never mind :)
01:50:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, that still not give me an idea how far it is between "here" and "chicago"
01:50:43  <Smoovious> the C didn't take, and I hit both G and H at the same time
01:50:50  <Smoovious> Grand Rapids, MI
01:51:04  <Mortomes> Ah, C and G are right next to each other on dvorak.
01:51:05  <Smoovious> look on the map roughly where I-96 and I-196 meet up
01:51:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not like i recognise any of these names :p
01:51:49  <Smoovious> ok, well, it is around a 4 hour drive in good traffic... (which only happens around 3am)...
01:51:56  <Smoovious> at average 70mph
01:52:01  <Mortomes>,+MI&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=7&ll=42.261049,-85.078125&spn=3.308964,11.074219&om=1&iwloc=addr
01:52:32  <Smoovious> the Amtrack line here pretty much follows the I-96 to I-94 route most of the way to Chicago
01:53:00  <Smoovious> give or take a mile or two
01:53:32  <Smoovious> and if you schedule in advance, you can take a ferry across the lake... takes a couple hours
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01:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> so practically along the coastline
01:54:36  <Bjarni> depending on the track conditions and type of train, you can work on board a train, but you can't in a car
01:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> last time i used a plane, we were told to show up 1 hour in advance
01:58:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> but that was quite a long time ago
01:58:44  <Bjarni> 1 hour is optimistic
01:59:01  <Mortomes> Last time I used a plane was last september, to the US, I was told to show up 3 hours in advance.
01:59:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> it might well be like 10 years ago
02:00:06  <Smoovious> well, it is 2-3 hours here cuz of all the terror alert crap... takes time to search through a grandmother and have people take off their shoes, and have to put people up on the wall and body search them cuz they forgot to leave their nail clippers at home
02:00:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> my parents flew to madeira this winter, i should ask them
02:00:19  <Bjarni> the news told about an incident at an airport here where people had showed up 2-3 hours before the flight and still missed it and the travelling company wouldn't give another ticket/refund because "they didn't show up on time. They should have known this could happen and showed up earlier"
02:00:33  <Mortomes> Smoovious: Not to mention the 15 minute "interview" with a security guy for me :S
02:01:24  <Bjarni> Mortomes: do you know the wrong guys or have you been to the Middle East or something?
02:01:42  <Sacro> Bjarni: you wanna watch out for muslims...
02:01:55  <Smoovious> yeah, it is rediculous... you have a bigger chance of dying being hit by a car while crossing the street than you do due to a plane crash or terrorist attack... anyways, the longer this goes on, and the more people get pissed at flying, the better chance passenger rail will have to take off again
02:02:05  <Mortomes> Well, I have been to Turkey for vacation 2 years ago, that obviously makes me suspicious.
02:02:16  <Sacro> g'night al
02:02:19  <Sacro> =l
02:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> reminds me of that series i watched recently... "little mosque on the praire"
02:02:28  <Mortomes> Being young and traveling alone doesn't help a lot either I guess.
02:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> that muslim guy was standing in line at the ticket counter of an airport, and was talking on the phone
02:02:48  <Smoovious> last year I drove to detroit... one of my friends didn't wanna waste the time in the car, asked me to drop him off at the airport on the way...
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02:02:58  <Smoovious> then I drove to detroit, and met him at the gate when his flight came in
02:03:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> it sounded like "how many 'innocent' keywords can i put in one sentence"
02:03:03  <Mortomes> haha
02:03:53  <Smoovious> and I ended up being able to smoke, eat my own food, listen to my own music, the whole way... and I had an extra 0 to party with that night after the concert
02:04:20  <Mortomes> But you did have to keep your eyes on the road :)
02:04:36  <Smoovious> only every other second
02:04:45  <Smoovious> but I'm a cabbie... I love driving anyways. :D
02:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, people have generally trouble staying on the road when going to madeira, or teneriffa, or mallorca
02:05:43  <Smoovious> how long a drive is that? (or are the roads pretty dangerous... like, very twisty on a ledge or something?)
02:05:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> (very popular vacation goals)
02:05:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> they are all islands, Smoovious
02:05:58  <Bjarni> <Smoovious>	but I'm a cabbie... I love driving anyways. :D <--- odd... you can speak understandable English
02:06:12  <Smoovious> oh... yeah, I can see how staying on the road can be a problem then
02:06:23  <Smoovious> Bjarni... I'm not in new yawk
02:06:30  <Bjarni> good point
02:06:43  <Bjarni> well here they don't speak Danish or English
02:07:14  <Bjarni> at one time it took a driver like two minutes to tell me that the trip would be expensive.... like I didn't knew that
02:07:31  <Bjarni> it was the most expensive time of the week and it was a long trip
02:07:41  * Smoovious nods.
02:07:58  <Bjarni> ended up costing like 0
02:08:15  <Mortomes> Heh, as a college student I get to use buses/trains for free on weekdays.
02:08:26  <Bjarni> damn plane was 4 hours late so the last train had left when I landed
02:08:47  <Smoovious> that isn't much of a problem here... the worst language issue I had to deal with was spanish... which isn't that hard to work with, they're all locals... well, except when an orchestra came into town... dunno what language he spoke, but I knew where he was going when I loaded up his cello in the car
02:08:53  <Mortomes> Needless to say I haven't bothered with getting a driver's license yet.
02:09:01  <Bjarni> the plane was broken so I had to wait 4 hours for another one
02:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> here, for a mandatory fee of 15EUR, we can use busses and trams in the city weekdays from 19:00 to 5:00, and on weekends
02:09:39  <Smoovious> yeah, that's another thing... with passenger rail, you usually have 2 engines on the train... and problem with one of the cars? just set it out on the siding
02:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> for an additional 50EUR, you can get a semester ticket for the whole time
02:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> or for 90EUR for the city and surrounding area
02:10:30  <Smoovious> and it wouldn't be the first time that an amtrak engine was disconnected from the passenger cars, and a CSX engine came down from the yard to make the run for them while their engine was being serviced
02:10:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's for 6 month
02:10:47  <Smoovious> you just don't get that kind of inter-company cooperation with the airlines like you do with the rails
02:11:00  <Bjarni> well, except when an orchestra came into town... dunno what language he spoke, but I knew where he was going when I loaded up his cello in the car <-- reminds me of some tourists I once met. I decided to talk to them since they were watching me and they didn't speak anything that I could understand... not English or German and they surely didn't speak anything sounding like French either
02:11:13  <Bjarni> I never figured out where they came from but I gave up on talking to them
02:11:18  <Bjarni> and they left
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02:11:38  <Bjarni> maybe they thought that I was asking them to leave :P
02:11:46  <Smoovious> they probably were talking later about the crazy dude who kept talking at them and no idea what he was saying
02:11:59  <Mortomes> Hehe
02:13:45  <Bjarni> most likely
02:13:59  <Bjarni> but still odd
02:14:02  <Mortomes> Those crazy Danes.
02:14:40  <Bjarni> I mean... it was far away from tourist attractions or hotels or anything
02:15:03  <Smoovious> those are the places I usually like to go when I take off
02:15:14  <Bjarni> they were on their own and didn't speak any of the languages one would expect people to know here
02:16:35  <Bjarni> it was on a siding between the main railroad line and some industry... how would they know that anything interesting happened at that location?
02:17:12  <Mortomes> Maybe they got lost :P
02:17:50  <Bjarni> considering their language skills and abilities to ask for directions, then it's very likely
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02:19:34  <Mortomes> Reminds me of 2 American tourists in a train they thought was going to the airport, they got mildly panicky when they noticed it wasn't going the right direction :P
02:23:34  * Smoovious shakes his head.
02:23:59  <Mortomes> Being the helpful guy I am, I told them where to get off and take another train, which did in fact go to the airport.
02:24:27  <Smoovious> just silly to get panicky over something like that...
02:24:55  <Smoovious> like... so you're on the wrong train... just go with it... might be the best experience ya ever had
02:25:04  <Mortomes> They might have been fined 35 EUR for not having a valid ticket ;)
02:25:34  <Smoovious> oooo... 35... worth panicking over...
02:25:35  <Smoovious> not
02:26:09  * Mortomes nods.
02:26:10  <Smoovious> now if it was in the former USSR, and I could get locked up for being in the wrong place without papers, then ok... that's worth panicking over... but not 35
02:26:22  <Smoovious> :D
02:26:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> in the USSR, you'd rather have a problem because of waiting 6 hours until the next stop :p
02:27:14  <Mortomes> In Soviet Russia, train waits for you!
02:27:40  <Mortomes> (Had to throw that in)
02:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> always reminds me of that joke:
02:28:17  <Smoovious>
02:28:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> Iwan goes with the transsibirian railway, and the train stops
02:28:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> it waits for some hours
02:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> Iwan asks the steward[?], why the train is waiting
02:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> he answers: "exchange engine"
02:29:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> they wait another few hours, iwan asks again
02:29:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> he still gets the answer "exchange engine"
02:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> after a whole day of waiting he asks again, this time more energically
02:31:09  <Bjarni> I once saw a train that stopped to pick up passengers
02:31:26  <Bjarni> I mean it left the station, then stoppped to pick up the two guys who came running
02:31:31  <Mortomes> Whoa
02:31:39  <Smoovious> was that the end of the joke, Eddi|zuHause3
02:31:40  <Smoovious> ?
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02:31:49  <Smoovious> ahh
02:31:56  <Mortomes> He's just typing it slowly to simulate the effect of the long wait.
02:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> *mental note, do not tell jokes  at 3:30*
02:32:01  <Smoovious> <Eddi|zuHause3> after a whole day of waiting he asks again, this time more energically <--- last line seen
02:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> he gets answer: "exchange engine..."
02:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> "... for wodka"
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02:32:37  <Bjarni> it's spelled vodka
02:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> not where i come from...
02:32:55  <Smoovious> he's approximating the guys dialect
02:33:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i think we had that discussion before
02:34:10  <Smoovious> I remember seeing a railroad program, and at one point, I forget which country it had to do this for, but the train had to stop, and while the passengers were still on it, the wheelsets were exchanged cuz all of the country's track were a different guage than the rest of the countries in the area
02:34:45  <Mortomes> hehe
02:35:08  <Smoovious> a national security strategy
02:35:41  <Smoovious> a real pain in the ass to do all the time, but effective I'd say to keep invading countries from being able to ship in supplies by train
02:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> russia had a lot of steam engines ("trophy" locomotives from WWII) ready to go on the western european 1435mm gauge, in case the "cold" war becomes not-so-cold
02:37:41  <Smoovious> in some ways the steam engines are more flexible too... can get water practically anywhere... and even if they were normally coal fired, you could chop down a bunch of trees in an emergency...
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02:39:26  * Smoovious laughs.
02:39:40  <Smoovious> just saw a scene on the black donnely's I like :D
02:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> i can't watch everything that's not on TV
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02:40:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> they only showed like 2 seasons of sopranos
02:41:19  <Smoovious> well... they're in a stolen cab... and while they're uloading some stuff, a jerk comes running up and hops into the back of the cab... says his destination
02:41:47  <Mortomes> That's why I use torrents if I want to watch a show, so I won't get screwed by tv stations deciding to stop airing something right in the middle of a season.
02:42:14  <Smoovious> driver says, "I'm not taking any fares right now..."... jerk repeats the address, with more nose-looking-down attitude... driver says "I told you, I'm not taking fares now..."
02:43:09  <Smoovious> jerk says "what kind of a cab driver doesn't want to take a fare across town?"... driver says "I'll show you.", puts his hand behind the jerks head, and slams it into the guard-plate between the seats, giving him a bloody lip
02:43:15  <Smoovious> "That kind..."... jerk runs away
02:43:43  <Mortomes> heh
02:44:32  <Smoovious> hehehe... we get lots of jerks in our cabs... a lot of us take the attitude, that you're in our office, and we're not going to take your shit in our office... I personally kicked about a dozen people out of my cab cuz they pissed me off
02:44:56  <Smoovious> like, I don't care how far the fare is... you're not gonna speak to me like that in my own cab, you can walk for all I care
02:46:05  * Mortomes nods.
02:49:00  <Mortomes> Right, time to crash into bed for a bit. :)
02:49:04  *** Mortomes is now known as Mortomesleeping
02:49:24  <Smoovious> wave
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03:13:04  <Smoovious>
03:16:12  * Eddi|zuHause2 listens to Die Ärzte - Die klügsten Männer der Welt
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03:17:52  <Smoovious> hahahaha -->
03:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> a classic ;(
03:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> ;)
03:19:49  <Smoovious>
03:19:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> sadly, it's missing the obligatory "connection reset by peer" (or similar)
03:21:24  * Smoovious nods.
03:25:52  <Smoovious> hahahaha :) <--- I remember this kind of stuff happening between my BBS and a friend's, when we both deleted a few people at the same time... our mailer-daemons kept bouncing and rebouncing and multiplying until our drives filled up
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03:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> we had a lot of fun with slap and reslap scripts a while back :p
03:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, longer and fewer trains really frees up my network a lot
03:30:06  * Smoovious grins.
03:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> from now on i will call Smoovious "Grinsekatze"
03:34:35  <Smoovious> HAHAHA... ok, this one is good. :) -->
03:37:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, there are other ones of that sort ;)
03:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> from the same guy
03:37:46  <mikk36|lap> :P
03:38:12  <mikk36|lap> i remember i once saw a page where there were hundreds of such ones
03:38:22  <mikk36|lap> continous in timeline
03:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause2>
03:40:47  * Smoovious frowns.
03:41:17  <Smoovious> either of you guys mind checking out my last diff on FS#532? lemme know if there are still any style issues?
03:41:46  * Smoovious reads the wiki page
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03:42:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have no clue about style, you should ask that kind of question to actual developers
03:43:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> feature request: have "new vehicle available" messages for wagons also
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09:38:05  <l_Blue_l> Hey i was just wondering if anyone here knew why it would be difficult to have signals in between tiles as i doubt it would be that hard to convert the old system to the new system to keep old save game compatibility
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09:40:42  <l_Blue_l> well looks like noone is here so i will take this to the forum.
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09:44:52  <l_Blue_l> Changed my mind again i will just ask my question again later on here
09:52:13  <peter1138> huh?
09:52:24  <peter1138> you doubt it would be hard to convert?
09:52:28  <peter1138> that's the hardest part
09:52:43  <peter1138> how would you decide where to place the signal?
09:53:08  <peter1138> and the change would piss off many players who wouldn't want it
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10:04:12  <l_Blue_l> have both options
10:04:30  <l_Blue_l> just add a new type of signal
10:11:40  <peter1138> then you don't have to worry about conversion
10:11:43  <peter1138> hm
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10:55:01  <SDK1985> Hi is there a way to turn of disasters while playing (using the dedicated console)???
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11:12:36  <SDK1985> Hi is there a way to turn of disasters while playing (using the dedicated console)???
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11:22:12  <SDK1985> Hi is there a way to turn of disasters while playing (using the dedicated console)???
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11:48:44  <SDK1985> Hi is there a way to turn of disasters while playing (using the dedicated console)???
11:59:09  *** Mortomesleeping is now known as Mortomes
12:03:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r9135 /branches/gamebalance/src/ (economy_new.h fixedt.h): [gamebalance] -Fix(r9026): Buffer overflows in multiplications of FixedT
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12:04:21  <Mortomes> Not that I know of SDK1985.
12:04:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r9136 /branches/gamebalance/src/economy_new.h: [gamebalance] -Fix(r9135): Committed too much in previous commit
12:05:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9137 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Fix: if all news-setting buttons show 'full', make the ALL-button show 'full' too
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12:21:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9138 /branches/noai/: [NoAI] -Branch: created a branch for a new idea how to handle AIs
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12:28:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r9139 /branches/gamebalance/src/economy_new.h: [gamebalance] -Add: Cyclic Modifications to the economic activity based on the works of Kondratiev and Juglar
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13:07:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9140 /branches/noai/ (21 files in 6 dirs):
13:07:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Remove: both 'default' and 'trolly' AI
13:07:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Remove: all settings, options, structs related to AI code
13:07:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Remove: saveload code for 'default' AI
13:07:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Remove: all cheats for 'default' AI
13:07:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  Note: all code related to starting/dying AIs remains, but no real AI is
13:07:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  working in the background currently. Therefor the branch name: No-AI :p
13:08:17  <valhallasw> :o
13:08:43  <Patrick> we've missed the real revision 10000
13:08:56  <Patrick> since r1 is an import from revision 9?? from an old repo :(
13:08:59  <SpComb> AI lobotomy o/
13:09:21  <Patrick> yay
13:09:29  <SpComb> Patrick: you mean a svn export/svn import?
13:09:37  <Patrick> no, from a crashed repo
13:09:43  <SpComb> they should have svnadmin dump/svnadmin load:ed it...
13:09:43  <Patrick> check the commit message for revision 1
13:09:58  <SpComb> ba-ba-ba-ackups
13:10:04  <Patrick> blame ludde
13:10:12  <SpComb> is he canadian?
13:10:16  <Patrick> no idea
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13:18:41  <VoidDragon> `morn'n..
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13:22:52  <VoidDragon> ... might anyone presently available be able to give me suggestions on a resolution to OTTD0.5.0 for Win32 crashing?
13:23:12  <Patrick> we'll need specific details
13:23:17  <Patrick> if any
13:23:48  <VoidDragon> Of course; I just needed to know whom to direct them to as to avoid flooding the channel with specifics..
13:24:08  <Patrick> it's best not to ask any specific person for help
13:24:24  <SDK1985> is AI already possible online?
13:24:38  <Patrick> unless you have pages and pages of debugging information which you want to paste (please don't) then just ask in here
13:25:14  <VoidDragon> Well, when I start OpenTTD, all I get is a white box and my system fan reving up for cooling
13:25:22  <VoidDragon> it doesn't do anything else
13:25:42  <VoidDragon> It had worked earlier, so I tryied reinstalling; then uninstall-reinstall, and just now the nightly
13:25:48  <VoidDragon> and still no luck
13:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> what OS are you using?
13:26:24  <VoidDragon> XP Home SP2
13:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> have you tried opening the command line, and starting OTTD from there?
13:26:37  <SDK1985> is AI already possible online?
13:26:50  <SDK1985> cant find AI in the manual
13:26:53  <peter1138> Patrick: 700something i thought?
13:26:54  <Patrick> SDK1985: I suspect the answer has not changed in the last 15 lines of dialog
13:26:56  <Patrick> try it and see
13:27:02  <peter1138> oh no, 975
13:27:19  <Patrick> peter1138: yes, I was going to call it for 976 but I wasn't sure
13:27:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> !openttd commit 1
13:27:26  <_42_> Commit by truelight :: r1 /trunk/ (200 files in 10 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
13:27:28  <VoidDragon> not yet; should I use any particular parameters? fullscreen & windowed are similarly nonresponsive (fullscreen isn't white)
13:27:28  <_42_> Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
13:27:28  <SDK1985> didnt see an answhere...
13:27:35  <Patrick> sweet, that's new
13:28:03  <Patrick> SDK1985: I don't see why AI would be disabled in an online game, but to be honest you don't really want it
13:28:44  <SDK1985> I have never seen AI really play in an online game..
13:28:50  <VoidDragon> Eddi: was there a particular parameter for commandline?
13:29:09  <SDK1985> even though max competitors is higher then current competitors
13:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> there's a help screen somewhere ;)
13:29:34  <Patrick> VoidDragon: uuh, just launch it from the commandline
13:29:38  <Patrick> and see what happens
13:29:52  <VoidDragon> I want to note that the problem started happening when I tried adding some NewGRFs to the data directory (specifically when copying the 2-color grf required by UKRS) but continued to occur when I removed the files (before I uninstalled/reinstalled)
13:29:56  <VoidDragon> moment..
13:30:17  <Patrick> when you uninstalled, did you then manually remove the folder it was installed to?
13:30:23  <Patrick> the automatic uninstaller wouldn't do that
13:31:21  <VoidDragon> Ok; let me copy the savegames & try the un/reisntall once more
13:31:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> btw, OpenTTD supports 2cc internally, it does not need the newgrf for that
13:31:33  <Patrick> and the data files
13:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> but please, try and start the game from the command line
13:32:16  <VoidDragon> Ah; It is unfortunate that the UKRS/NARS downloading pages don't note that
13:32:53  <Patrick> the commandline launcher is much faster and will help us more
13:32:59  <Patrick> if you don't actually know what the commandline is, just say
13:33:07  <Patrick> you can't appear any more foolish
13:33:20  <VoidDragon> I know how to run cmd
13:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, because most newgrfs are designed for TTDPatch, that OpenTTD supports them is pure luxus ;)
13:33:26  <VoidDragon> no change though
13:33:43  <Patrick> no messages printed out?
13:33:47  <VoidDragon> still the white screen
13:33:58  <Patrick> what about on the commandline?
13:34:05  <VoidDragon> no printout; it just went back to the prompt
13:34:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> try "openttd -d 1"
13:35:05  <VoidDragon> hmm.. trg1r.grf file corrupt at top; dbg stops at scanning for NewGRFs
13:35:28  <Patrick> yes, so move that file away and then try it again to see what happens
13:35:46  <VoidDragon> isn't that one of the core files?
13:35:57  <Patrick> I don't actually know
13:36:07  <Patrick> but that's what I'd do if I was in your position
13:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> trg1r.grf is a file from the original game
13:36:22  <Patrick> ok, listen to eddi
13:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> can you copy-paste that debug output to some nopaste service of your choice?
13:37:08  * VoidDragon only added NewGRFs in a subdirectory in the data
13:38:14  <VoidDragon> I'm not certain on what you mean by nopaste, but I could do line-by-line; nothing else seems out of the ordinary, and I could try copying over an older trg1r if you think that may work?
13:38:38  <Patrick> he means using an online service like
13:38:48  <Patrick> where you put in some text and it gives you a link to share to us so we can see it
13:38:54  <Patrick> without putting 500 debug lines in here
13:38:56  <VoidDragon> Ah
13:39:24  <VoidDragon> the debug output from the command prompt provided? or from Windows when closing the process?
13:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, the one from command line
13:39:54  <VoidDragon> oh, that's only a few lines
13:40:18  <VoidDragon> not even 10, in fact
13:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> everything more than 2 should not be pasted into a channel
13:41:00  * VoidDragon nods
13:41:33  <VoidDragon> does .. not appear to be a valid site
13:42:39  <Patrick> well, dot com
13:42:48  <Patrick> I don't actually know where specific ones are
13:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> i usually use
13:44:16  * VoidDragon has never used anysuch service in recollection, thus was unaware of what to use
13:44:27  <VoidDragon> waiting on URL
13:44:31  <Patrick> was what I remembered
13:44:37  <Patrick> there's also deadbeefbabe (google it)
13:44:46  <Belugas> hello
13:46:15  <VoidDragon> I hate satellite; pastebin timed out; the php-q seems to be faster.. lets see
13:46:30  <Patrick> satellite internet, dear me
13:46:40  <Patrick> a ping of 1.86 seconds ...
13:46:42  <VoidDragon> yeah, I know
13:46:49  <VoidDragon>
13:46:56  <VoidDragon> can't even get cable TV here
13:47:11  <SpComb> sucks on fiber as well
13:47:52  <VoidDragon> no Cable, DSL, no FiOS; heck, no wicom
13:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> so, next step... try to remove all newgrfs from the data/ and any subdirectories
13:48:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> and replace your
13:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> f
13:49:00  <VoidDragon> NewGRFs already removed
13:49:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> what does "dir data" say?
13:49:48  <VoidDragon> I assumed the installer overwrote the original GRFs but I guess it's set not to
13:51:31  <VoidDragon> I can nopaste it, but seriously, I've only had it for 2 days; I got interested in the screenshots using UKRS & downloaded them to their own subdirectory, which, again, I've removed from OpenTTD's data folder entirely
13:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> you could also try to get more information by strting "openttd -d grf=9
13:56:22  <peter1138> that's a bit too much
13:57:16  <VoidDragon> wtf.. I removed that keeps putting it back.. ccol2w was the only one I coppied directly to the data folder as it wasint' independently listing when I hit the refresh (and thats when all the problem started)
13:57:29  <VoidDragon> I'm going to go with the uninstall/del/reinstall
14:01:16  <SDK1985> how can I build awater tower
14:01:20  <SDK1985> it always says
14:01:22  <SDK1985> site unsuitable
14:01:30  <VoidDragon> Thanks for your assitance and letting me know about the preintegration of the 2color
14:02:37  <VoidDragon> (otherwise, had I figured out that the data wasn't being redone, I would've made the mistake of trying to get it to work again based on the "required" note on the UKRS/NARS download page)
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14:13:46  <mikk36> erm
14:13:54  <mikk36> is this normal that running cost goes to minus ? :D
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14:20:38  <Sacro> mikk36: err... no
14:20:46  <mikk36> :P
14:20:47  <mikk36> well
14:20:52  <mikk36> i have so :P
14:20:57  <Sacro> nice
14:20:57  <mikk36> send save ? :P
14:21:01  <Sacro> post save and bugreport :)
14:21:55  <mikk36> :P
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14:45:24  <SDK1985> Question: How do I increase the size of industries??
14:45:34  <SDK1985> sometimes I see people have a mine of 900:S:S
14:46:31  <SDK1985> (production)
14:46:36  <hylje> service one at 65-75 rating and itll grow
14:46:55  <SDK1985> hmm I have a mine of only 40 at 79 %
14:47:22  <SDK1985> and how does the rating work? does it have to be in the train or in the other station?
14:47:32  <SDK1985> in otherwords; more trains or 1 big train?
14:47:54  <hylje> a train loading there increases it
14:48:03  <hylje> empty station decreases it
14:48:28  <SDK1985> ok so if there is always 1 train loading then that would be the best?
14:49:06  <hylje> not at all time
14:49:19  <hylje> if you service it over 75%, it starts "running out"
14:50:05  <SDK1985> hmm is that the fenomenom from the old TT that a farm would go bankrupt?
14:50:14  <hylje> more or less
14:50:20  <hylje> it doesnt disappear though
14:50:21  <SDK1985> have not seen this in Openttd though
14:50:36  <SDK1985> so 99% is not good for growth? (I have some of these aswell)
14:51:27  <Smoovious> <SpComb> is he canadian? <--- no, he's swedish... (ludde)
14:51:37  <SpComb> darn
14:51:43  <SpComb> well, sweden is pretty close to canada
14:52:00  <SDK1985> hmm 2000 km you mean lol
14:52:05  <SDK1985> maybe 4000
14:52:06  <SDK1985> lol
14:52:21  <hylje> did he talk about geographically? :-)
14:56:01  <Smoovious> longitudinally speaking that is
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15:11:34  <SpComb> other than the atlantic, greenland, norway and england they are practically right next to eachother
15:17:52  <Rubidium> SpComb: Sweden was close to Canada, though they weren't called that when in that time
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15:44:37  <carwe>  ;)
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15:46:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r9141 /branches/gamebalance/src/ (date.cpp economy_new.h): [gamebalance] -Add: Random events that can occur monthly and affect the economy as a whole (i.e. are not local to a town or industry)
15:47:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9142 /branches/noai/ (20 files in 8 dirs):
15:47:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added initial code for AI-layer system
15:47:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: ai.h only declares functions, no longer structs and other stuff
15:47:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Add: added example AI called NoAI
15:47:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Add: added first AIBase:: functions (random-related)
15:47:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  Many thanks to Rubidium and Celestar for their comments and suggestions!
15:49:49  <SDK1985> can somone explain to me why it is bad to have a rating of over 75% at stations for industries??
15:50:02  <antichaos> ooooh!  Exciting.  Is there any info anywhere about the plan for this new AI system, or are we just going to have to wait and see?
15:50:23  <XeryusTC> SDK1985: because it is the same as having a rating of <60%
15:50:39  <SDK1985> concequence?
15:50:43  <SDK1985> no growth?
15:51:03  <XeryusTC> only 33% change to grow
15:51:09  <XeryusTC> 66% change to become smaller
15:51:10  <XeryusTC> IIRC
15:51:53  <SDK1985> what is iirc?
15:51:55  <SDK1985> its not in wiki
15:52:08  <SDK1985> and you mean; 33% of industries have the ability to grow, the rest not??
15:52:29  <hylje> no
15:52:35  <Smoovious> IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
15:52:41  <SDK1985> lol ok
15:52:47  <hylje> the rating affects its chances to grow or shrink
15:52:56  <XeryusTC> <SDK1985> and you mean; 33% of industries have the ability to grow, the rest not?? <- it only affects one industry
15:53:24  <SDK1985> yes I meant that like 3 out of 10 farms will grow and 7 not?
15:54:10  <XeryusTC> uhm no
15:54:25  <XeryusTC> there is a small change that will happen
15:54:56  <SDK1985> the strange thing is that one of my competitors has a coal mine that from the beginning really fast became 450 tons
15:55:00  <SDK1985> *350
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15:55:08  <SDK1985> mine is stuck at 180
15:55:18  <Smoovious> he means that periodically, an industry is picked at random, according to some other forumula... and of that chosen industry, there is a 33% chance it'll grow, and 66% chace it'll shrink... not counting any station-rating modifiers
15:55:32  <SDK1985> ok
15:56:17  <XeryusTC> Smoovious: since when do station ratings have something to do with it?
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15:56:44  <Smoovious> <hylje> service one at 65-75 rating and itll grow
15:57:03  <SDK1985> hard to get that :S
15:57:06  <Smoovious> I'm going by what others have already shared... I haven't looked at the code for it myself yet
15:57:52  <XeryusTC> heh, me too, but i never heard that station ratings have influence
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15:58:26  <SDK1985> it has some influence because a company that has never been used only increases like 10% through the newspaper
15:58:31  <SDK1985> it never reaches 900 tons
15:58:47  <Smoovious> that's just random fluctuation...
15:59:07  <SDK1985> but stations do have some influence..
15:59:14  <SDK1985> I will test the 65-75:)
15:59:36  <Smoovious> yeah... especially with factory-type industries... like the Factory, Steel Mill, Food Proc, etc...
16:00:07  <SDK1985> I think factory itself only converts goods delevered to it
16:00:07  <XeryusTC> it only affects primary industries AFAIK
16:00:07  <Smoovious> if they aren't supplied raw materials, eventually, they'll close down... but if they are in decent use, odds of it shutting down are very small
16:00:45  <SDK1985> AFAIK? If I am Correct (K:S)
16:00:49  <Smoovious> the Factory creates goods... I was using 'factory-type' in the general sense... converting raw materials into a different product
16:00:55  <XeryusTC> as far as i know
16:00:59  <XeryusTC>
16:01:01  <Smoovious> yeah, what he said
16:01:41  <SDK1985> lolt hanks for that site
16:03:05  <XeryusTC> heh
16:03:16  <XeryusTC> i always add it to my search engines @ opera :D
16:03:31  <SDK1985> lol it doenst know : lmoa
16:04:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r9143 /branches/gamebalance/src/economy_new.h: [gamebalance] -Codechange: Class housekeeping (make a member private) and put the activity level in a separate base class, because other entities like towns will need it as well.
16:04:31  <Mortomes> That's probably because it's lmao? :P
16:05:00  <XeryusTC>
16:05:20  <SDK1985> lol!
16:05:23  <XeryusTC> it doesn't know lmaao though :(
16:05:29  <Mortomes> ... Land Mail Art Objects?
16:05:35  <SDK1985> yes i also saw it hehehe
16:06:00  <SDK1985> LMAO Laughing My Ahem Off *
16:06:00  <SDK1985> LMAO Laughing My Assets Off
16:06:15  <XeryusTC> <- i added the second last entry :)
16:06:38  <SDK1985> hehe
16:07:01  <SDK1985> campzone is dutch:)
16:07:04  <SDK1985> at least also..
16:07:16  <XeryusTC> yes, it is
16:07:43  <SDK1985> weird: it says idd=indeed
16:07:55  <SDK1985> didnt know the english are also using it now
16:07:55  <Mortomes> idd=inderdaad=indeed :)
16:08:09  <SDK1985> dutch invasion:)
16:08:19  <SDK1985> just like with lol..
16:08:20  <Mortomes> We are everywhere.
16:08:22  <SDK1985> :p
16:08:54  <XeryusTC> hmm
16:09:00  <XeryusTC> we dutch rule
16:10:02  <SDK1985> :)
16:10:27  <SDK1985> WTF World Taekwondo Federation
16:10:28  <SDK1985> lol
16:10:34  <Mortomes> haha
16:11:26  <SDK1985> lol this is just dangerous.. HAHA Having A Heart Attack
16:14:05  <Mortomes> haha!
16:14:33  <Mortomes> Call 112!
16:14:52  <SDK1985> lol
16:15:50  <XeryusTC> lol
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16:20:53  <Mortomes> PWN: Professional Women's Network
16:21:27  <Belugas> antichaos : infos/plans on new ai developpment will be available soon, within this week
16:21:55  <Tefad> neato
16:23:20  <SDK1985> cs: cybersex
16:23:20  <SDK1985> hehe
16:23:33  <Sacro|Laptop> ooh, im studying CS at uni
16:24:17  <SDK1985>
16:24:37  <SDK1985> (thats me btw)
16:26:04  <antichaos> Belugas: thanks :)
16:29:13  <antichaos> I have occasional thoughts about using GEs to do route planning
16:29:59  <antichaos> GAs rather..genetic algorithms.
16:30:44  <antichaos> typos in accronyms can be extra confusing ;)
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16:34:33  <SDK1985> if you cant type: dont use them!
16:34:34  <SDK1985> :p
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17:38:30  <Wolf01> hello
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18:11:06  <SDK1985> hi
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18:36:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9144 /branches/noai/ (12 files in 6 dirs):
18:36:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change: moved command functions to AIObject, and made AIBase depend on AIObject
18:36:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: split AIBase into AIBase and AIController, where the last should be extended by the real AI
18:36:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Remove: removed the SP queue-code, as it is no longer needed with the new message system
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18:39:18  <ln-> btw
18:39:36  <ln-> there is a separate 'bash' package for mingw, which adds /bin/bash
18:39:55  <ln-> hmm, or at least some bash at some path.
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18:43:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9145 /branches/noai/src/ai/core/ (ai_base.hpp base/random.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: allow compiling with RANDOM_DEBUG enabled (tnx Rubidium)
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18:53:20  <Digitalfox> I'm no DEV, but having some many branches on working, is more productive?? Wouldn't it be better having some of this work being done directly in trunk??
18:53:33  <Smoovious> no
18:53:51  <Smoovious> having the seperate branches for major projects, keeps the main branch from being held up in an incomplete state
18:54:04  <Smoovious> when the branches are mature, then they work on merging them
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18:54:52  <Smoovious> or maybe keep them seperate branches... depends on how they turn out
18:54:53  <zeurkous> haai
18:55:14  <zeurkous> arg, brb
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18:56:30  <zeurkous> better
18:57:53  <Digitalfox> Smoovious: I understand, but newhouses is on hold, cpp_gui is on hold ( i know KUDr works on it from time to time ), 32bpp is almost in hold, etc.. So many branches :|
18:58:50  <Belugas> although it may seems unorthodox, personnaly, i think it is quite sane that way
18:59:07  <KUDr> Digitalfox: why do you think cpp_gui is 'on hold' ??
18:59:42  <Belugas> mostly, those branches are "owned" by a few individuals who know about them and maintain them more easily as if it was in trunk right away
19:00:21  <Digitalfox> KUDr: I know you work on it ( a lot ), but it sometimes looks a little paused ( offcourse i may be wrong and you work on it a lot of time, but don't commit ) :)
19:00:41  <Belugas> and newhouses is not really on hold, by the way, even if there is no commit frenzy on it ;)
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19:01:30  <peter1138> Digitalfox: the thing is
19:01:36  <peter1138> Digitalfox: this is not our day job
19:01:37  <Smoovious> so they're on hold... what do you want them to do... delete em?
19:01:47  <KUDr> hey Digitalfox: if there is no commit for few days it means i am working on it and commiting until it works again - otherwise others (like you) will complain that it doesn't compile or that it asserts, etc
19:01:53  <peter1138> we also have this thing called "real life"
19:02:29  <Digitalfox> peter1138: I know that, i'm not trying to say "WORK you slaves", i'm just asking if many branches is a good thing with has been answered :)
19:02:33  <Smoovious> well... I have a full day available to code with... I'm just slow at it at the moment
19:02:36  <Rubidium> ofcourse OpenTTD has been "on hold" many times when we use Digitalfox's way to tell whether something is on hold or not
19:02:41  <dihedral> peter1138: whats real life? :-P
19:02:57  <KUDr> Digitalfox: please stop spreading rumors
19:03:07  <peter1138> dihedral: it's the time spent travelling between working on openttd at home and working on openttd at work... ;)
19:03:15  <Smoovious> dihedral... Real Life is a music group... they have a popular song called Send Me an Angel
19:03:32  <peter1138> never heard of it
19:03:33  <KUDr> Digitalfox: it is extremely demotivating to read such posts
19:03:43  <dihedral> peter1138: i have a laptop for traveling :-D
19:03:53  <dihedral> *travelling
19:03:56  <peter1138> dihedral: not much use when you're the driver
19:04:07  <dihedral> ...trains?
19:04:11  <Smoovious> peter1138... well, they aren't recent...
19:04:20  <dihedral> those big things on tracks... you might know them from openttd :-D
19:05:05  <Digitalfox> KUDr: What rumours?? I was asking if many branches is a good thing.. I apolagise if looked other thing, i love the work you guys do and no way i want to demotive you DEV's :)
19:05:53  <Belugas> Digitalfox : [14:57] <Digitalfox> Smoovious: I understand, but newhouses is on hold, cpp_gui is on hold ( i know KUDr works on it from time to time ), 32bpp is almost in hold, etc.. So many branches :|
19:05:54  <KUDr> Digitalfox: "but newhouses is on hold, cpp_gui is on hold" << you are giving others wrong information
19:06:09  <Belugas> this is what we are a bit sad to hear
19:06:15  <KUDr> yes
19:06:19  <KUDr> exactly
19:06:52  <Smoovious> the lack of a posted commit doesn't mean they aren't being worked on... a lot of time can be spent writing and rewriting and testing some code locally before it ever gets committed, if it gets committed at all
19:07:14  <Digitalfox> Ok, i apolagise.. I will in future try not to make the same mistake, and again sorry..
19:07:39  <KUDr> and reason why it is not in trunk is that if it crashes in cpp_gui branch i know it is my mistake and not anybody else. This is how feature branches work
19:07:54  <dihedral> yeah - love that svn revert when something goes wrong :-)
19:08:00  <Digitalfox> It wasn't my intention to start any rumours or critizise any dev's or people around it ..
19:08:22  <KUDr> accepted :)
19:08:36  <Smoovious> the big projects just need to be kept quarantined while they're being worked on is all
19:09:02  <zeurkous> 'big projects' should be modular
19:09:17  <Smoovious> ...
19:09:24  <dihedral> yeah - modules- here they come
19:09:37  <dihedral> shared modules and dll's?
19:09:37  <zeurkous> I wasn't talking about the concept of 'modules' specifically
19:09:49  <dihedral> shame
19:09:56  <zeurkous> just about code independence, except for lower-level functions
19:10:06  <Smoovious> ...
19:10:20  <zeurkous> a new GUI -- wth does that have to do with the rest of the code?
19:10:36  <Smoovious> how would you develop it?
19:10:45  <zeurkous> it should just plug into {the,a} backend
19:10:54  <zeurkous> no seperate branch necessary
19:11:01  <dihedral> btw - how much work would it be to not include the graphical side of things when compiling --dedicated
19:11:10  <Smoovious> if you don't have a seperate branch to create it... then how would you develop it to begin with?
19:11:25  <zeurkous> dihedral: haven't even compiled the dedicated thing, but compiling graphics with it? :X
19:11:46  <dihedral> well - 0.5.0 at least
19:12:03  <Smoovious> dihedral... you need to reference the graphical elements so that the map data will stay in sync
19:12:04  <dihedral> dedicated server still draws it all
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19:12:07  <zeurkous> Smoovious: not a seperate branch, a seperate project
19:12:14  <zeurkous> dihedral: :X
19:12:21  <Smoovious> zeurkous... dude... a seperate branch... _IS_ a seperate project
19:12:26  <zeurkous> so that's why the network commands like 'say' don't work
19:12:28  <Rubidium> dihedral: hard, very hard, because the size of busses etc. is acquired from the graphic files
19:12:42  <zeurkous> Smoovious: I mean, that only focuses on the new GUI, and doesn't have any backend code in it
19:12:56  <dihedral> but dont the clients only have to be able to draw that data?
19:13:04  <Smoovious> you have to have the backend code in order to design the GUI for it, and test it, and handle bugs
19:13:10  <zeurkous> AI clients, for a start, won't have to draw it
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19:13:26  <zeurkous> but I presume that's still integrated instead of modular? >:P
19:13:27  <Rubidium> no, the length of vehicles is taken from the graphic files
19:13:31  <dihedral> perhaps it might make the ai better :-D
19:13:34  <Smoovious> the clients won't have to draw it... but they'll still have to account for them
19:13:49  <zeurkous> dihedral: better, or just even more of a CPU hog? :P
19:14:12  <dihedral> bill gates might ask where the diff was in that
19:14:23  <zeurkous> :P
19:14:42  <dihedral> i am a very admin side of things person
19:14:57  <dihedral> linux teminal - ssh - and vim
19:15:06  <zeurkous> bleh :r
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19:15:18  <dihedral> ok ok gcc, make...
19:15:29  <zeurkous> lunix and vim :X
19:15:40  <dihedral> oi
19:15:43  <dihedral> nofair
19:15:45  <hylje> :o
19:15:51  <dihedral> linux is amazing
19:16:02  <zeurkous> and yes, a version will reveal I'm forced to run slack atm due to reasons beyond my control
19:16:12  <dihedral> hehe
19:16:17  <zeurkous> NetBSD pwnage btw 8)
19:16:21  <dihedral> anyway - getting back on track
19:16:46  <dihedral> it is strange how setting down the res should influence the performance of a dedicated server
19:16:55  <dihedral> it kinda defeats it's purpose :-P
19:16:59  <zeurkous> does the dedicated server have a graphics *OUTPUT*?
19:17:05  <dihedral> nope
19:17:13  <dihedral> what do i want x for?
19:17:21  <dihedral> just lose resources
19:17:50  <zeurkous> ow wait, forgot, the dedicated server draws for the clients
19:17:59  <Smoovious> I don't run dedicated... but I'd have to say no to the graphics output
19:18:15  <zeurkous> that was intended as a protest, don't misunderstand me
19:18:51  <zeurkous> compiling the GUI code on behalf of the clients is one thing, but graphics should go right >/dev/null
19:19:09  * Smoovious shakes his head.
19:19:18  * Smoovious sighs.
19:19:22  <Smoovious> ok... lets try this again
19:19:27  <zeurkous> bleh bad breath :r
19:19:30  <zeurkous> k :P
19:19:32  <dihedral> brb
19:19:34  <zeurkous> k
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19:20:46  <Smoovious> the map on the dedicated server, has to match exactly, with the running map on all of the connected clients... even tho the dedicated server doesn't keep up a graphical screen for us to see what's going on, it still maintains a copy of it internally... in its mind, so to speak...
19:20:54  <Smoovious> it still needs all of the graphics
19:21:16  <Smoovious> in order to keep in sync how different graphics are being displayed... vehicle lengths... etc
19:21:37  <zeurkous> why doesn't it just send the identifiers for the graphics and the position on the map?
19:21:59  <zeurkous> AFAIK most game engines do it that way, and I don't see why TTD should be an exception
19:22:00  <Smoovious> how do you suggest to do that
19:22:10  <Smoovious> no, most game engines do not do it that way
19:22:33  <zeurkous> well, say that a square of grass has the id of 0x69, and a tree standing on it has the id of 0x71
19:22:42  <Smoovious> wrong
19:22:51  <zeurkous> I mean, the individual graphics
19:23:06  <Rubidium> zeurkous: do you know how many tiles are changed every tick and how many routing decisions etc are taken every tick?
19:23:09  <Smoovious> a tile of grass with a half-grown tree in the upper corner would be tile id 0x22 for example
19:23:13  <zeurkous> it would send the coordinates of a piece of the map, mention 0x69 as the tile graphic name, and instruct that a tree of 0x71 is on top of it
19:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> zeurkous: apart from the initial savegame, absolutely no map data is ever transferred
19:23:40  <Rubidium> zeurkous: any idea how many bandwidth that would take?
19:23:41  <zeurkous> Rubidium: and you're telling me that what is essentially a FMV stream consumes less bandwith?
19:23:43  <Smoovious> zeurkous... you know how long it takes to download the current map when you join a game?
19:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> because practically the whole map changes at once
19:23:50  <Rubidium> FMV?
19:23:52  <Smoovious> how would you like to do that every single game-day
19:24:04  <zeurkous> Rubidium: full-motion video
19:24:17  <Smoovious> it isn't a FMV stream
19:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> nothing of that sort is done..
19:24:33  <zeurkous> then why does the server keep a graphical representation in it's memory?
19:24:53  <Rubidium> it needs the size of vehicles (taken from the graphic files)
19:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> only a few commands (like "player x builds station at y") and the random seed are transferred
19:24:57  <Smoovious> each computer is running with the same random seed... so when each computer needs to pick a random number, they all end up with the same random number
19:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> and all clients do all calculations
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19:25:40  <zeurkous> Rubidium: the size is something entirely different then the entire graphic
19:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> and the server keeps a graphical representation, because it is not clearly divided from the game code (especially, there are random calls there)
19:26:09  <Smoovious> and the clients and servers keep regularly exchanging checksum information to make sure they're all still in sync... additional commands get sent to the other computers so everyone knows what the other players are doing...stuff that can't be predicted with a random seed value
19:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you can't just not run the graphics code
19:26:14  <zeurkous> ahh, gotcha
19:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> because then game state would differ
19:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> and that may not happen
19:26:33  <zeurkous> Smoovious: yes, that's exactly how I would do it, my apologies, I misunderstood
19:26:46  <Rubidium> zeurkous: but the grf files have that data in them
19:27:02  <Rubidium> everybody sees them as graphics files, but they are (much) more than that
19:27:17  * Smoovious nods agreement with Rubidium
19:27:38  <zeurkous> Rubidium: yes, I know that
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19:27:58  <zeurkous> but it should be possible to extract all relevant information from them at load time
19:28:02  <Rubidium> and just extracting that data from the GRFs and distributing that is as bad as distributing the graphic files
19:28:03  <zeurkous> and discard the actual bitmaps
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19:28:26  <zeurkous> Rubidium: we have checksums for that
19:28:26  <Smoovious> why discard them?
19:28:41  <Smoovious> you need them in order to get some information
19:28:50  <Rubidium> checksums for what?
19:29:01  <zeurkous> alright, quiet everyone, I will try to explain what I mean >:P
19:29:04  <Smoovious> to us, it is graphical data... but to the program, it is still just data that it needs
19:29:23  <zeurkous> clients have the same GRF files as the servers
19:29:40  <zeurkous> on joining, checksums are exchanged to make sure that both are roughly the same
19:29:45  <Smoovious> no
19:29:55  <Smoovious> both are exchanged to make sure that both are EXACTLY the same
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19:30:07  <zeurkous> yes, I know, but this is my idea of how it *should* work
19:30:23  <Smoovious> well, then you're already wrong and no point in continuing
19:30:27  <Rubidium> Smoovious: not true, there is a 1 in 4 billion or so chance that the files differ
19:30:30  <zeurkous> the server sends data about how to use the data in the GRF files to build a map
19:30:37  * Smoovious thbtbtbtbtbtbt's at Rubidium
19:30:53  <Smoovious> zeurkous... why?
19:31:09  <Smoovious> there's no need
19:31:16  <zeurkous> because just the data how to use them isn't as big as the GRF files themselves
19:31:41  <Smoovious> but both sides already have the GRF files, and both sides already have the data... there is no point in sending the data
19:31:45  <zeurkous> and the need for a precise graphic representation of the map in the servers' memory is gone
19:31:52  <zeurkous> Smoovious: that's my point
19:32:06  <Rubidium> zeurkous: you have absolutely no idea how OTTD's network protocol works
19:32:09  <zeurkous> I just mean -- the server should send the map layout, what's going on, etc, but not the graphics themselves
19:32:11  <Smoovious> it doesn't keep a graphical representation... the graphical representation is only for those of us with working eyeballs
19:32:19  <Smoovious> to the computer, the map is an array
19:32:20  <peter1138> the server doesn't send any graphics
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19:32:28  <Smoovious> it doesn't send the graphics
19:32:34  <Rubidium> nor does it send what graphics to place where
19:32:37  <zeurkous> okay, a single question
19:32:45  <Smoovious> again?
19:32:51  <zeurkous> why does the damn thing keep a *GRAPHICAL* representation instead of just the array?
19:33:04  <peter1138> because it's a bodge
19:33:11  <Smoovious> because the array, defines the graphics we see on the screen
19:33:29  <zeurkous> peter1138: that's an answer where I can live with :P
19:33:33  <Smoovious> it just stops at the point of actually painting the screen
19:33:43  <zeurkous> which*, typo @ head
19:34:12  <peter1138> for hysterical raisins, the main game input loop is inside the video drivers
19:34:25  <Smoovious> zeurkous... I think you're confusing what the dedicated server works with in memory, with what gets sent to/from the clients...
19:34:31  <peter1138> so dedicated mode is handled by a dumb video driver that doesn't display anything
19:34:46  <zeurkous> peter1138: sorry if this is a rumor or something, but OpenTTD was originally disassembled from the original code, right?
19:34:58  <zeurkous> and then duplicated in C
19:35:11  <Smoovious> I think there was a seperate project that was disassembled...
19:35:29  <Smoovious> far as I know it was abandoned
19:35:41  <zeurkous> hm, okay
19:35:43  <peter1138> zeurkous: yes
19:35:52  <peter1138> hence the raisins
19:36:04  <zeurkous> because the input loop in the video drivers would conform to standard integrated raw coding practice
19:36:48  <peter1138> nobody's bothered to separate them, and they are fairly linked together. i.e. you use sdl input with the sdl video driver...
19:37:45  <Smoovious> probably was never a compelling reason to fix what might be a little unsightly, but certainly isn't broken
19:37:46  <zeurkous> this won't affect end lusers too much, but IMO this should be fixed before release 1
19:38:03  <Smoovious> fix what?
19:38:06  <zeurkous> Smoovious: no, but it hinders further progress
19:38:17  <Rubidium> zeurkous: why?
19:38:19  <zeurkous> fix as in seperate the input loop from the GUI code
19:38:21  <Rubidium> does it hinder?
19:38:29  <Smoovious> what for?
19:38:57  <zeurkous> we've already discussed that -- the network code
19:39:05  <zeurkous> or rather, the dedicated server cod
19:39:06  <zeurkous> +e
19:39:17  <Smoovious> ...
19:39:54  <Smoovious> what's hindered about it?
19:39:57  <zeurkous> besides, who knows if someone might want to use seperate I/O libraries for control and video?
19:40:23  <Rubidium> the network code has nothing to do with the dedicated server (period)
19:40:29  * Smoovious slowly wipes his hand over his face a moment.
19:40:38  <zeurkous> Rubidium: I shouldn't be so sure of that
19:40:47  <zeurkous> a server wouldn't be of much use w/o a network
19:40:54  <Smoovious> why should you? you clearly don't know the code
19:41:20  <Smoovious> hell, I only know not even 10% of the code at this point...
19:41:38  <zeurkous> this is about the spirit and structuring of the code :P
19:42:02  <Smoovious> need a more compelling reason than making it pretty
19:42:08  <zeurkous> or optimize it?
19:42:21  <Smoovious> optimize it? better to keep it where it is then
19:42:33  <zeurkous> and making code pretty also improves future extensibility
19:43:00  <Rubidium> zeurkous: you are making all kind of statements about the network code that are completely false and some statements that might apply to the dedicated 'server' but most certainly not the network code
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19:43:24  <zeurkous> Rubidium: I'm not talking about the network code anymore, per the explanation of peter1138
19:43:30  <Smoovious> I think he's just trying to show off what his C classes are trying to teach him... without real-world application experience
19:43:49  <zeurkous> rofl C :R
19:43:54  <zeurkous> and classes? who needs that?
19:44:01  <hylje> syntactic sugar
19:44:01  <Smoovious> you... apparently
19:44:12  <zeurkous> I sometimes use C because most programs are written in it, but my own projects?
19:44:14  <hylje> oh, that kind of classes
19:44:16  <zeurkous> well, perhaps some low-level stuff
19:45:16  <Smoovious> you use VB for your own projects, doncha?
19:45:41  <zeurkous> I personally like the nice IPC mechanisms and low forking difficulties of shell scripts linked together
19:45:50  <zeurkous> a lot of them, nicely modular, with a preprocessor
19:45:57  <hylje> :o
19:46:01  <hylje> vb?
19:46:07  <zeurkous> VB :R
19:46:10  <Smoovious> hylje... visual basic
19:46:11  <dihedral> back
19:46:14  <zeurkous> wb
19:46:57  <zeurkous> currently building a stored and a vard on top of it to improve the storage of data and introduce typeing
19:47:06  <hylje> now that's the real WTF
19:47:19  <zeurkous> a process manager for barrier synchronization is also in the works
19:47:53  <peter1138> i'm not sure that sentence parses
19:47:58  <zeurkous> :P
19:48:23  <zeurkous> the one about the process manager you mean?
19:48:31  <Rubidium> zeurkous: endlessly piping is very bad for performance
19:48:31  <peter1138> no
19:48:37  <Smoovious> just sounds like he's trying, and failing, to impress by using impressive sounding terms, like he might to with a supervisor that doesn't have a clue
19:48:46  <zeurkous> Smoovious: rofl rofl rofl
19:49:27  <zeurkous> (un)fortunately, I _do_ have a clue
19:49:43  <Smoovious> you just left it at home?
19:49:49  <zeurkous> I work at home >:P
19:49:49  <dihedral> lol
19:49:54  <zeurkous> so, yes :P
19:50:02  <zeurkous> Rubidium: initial parallel overhead is a bit high, yes
19:50:38  <Rubidium> and how would you make openttd by piping (are there bidirectional pipes?)
19:50:56  <zeurkous> Rubidium: by building a lot of basic components together
19:50:57  * Smoovious sits back and waits.
19:51:12  <zeurkous> since this does not seem to have been done before, I unfortunately have to invent the wheel myself
19:51:22  * Smoovious rolls his eyes.
19:51:36  <zeurkous> I estimate it will take me a few years before I can implement pong with any elegance :P
19:51:53  <Rubidium> oh, so you are telling us to use one of your unproven ideas
19:51:57  <Smoovious> now that's the first thing you said that I believe 100%
19:52:10  <zeurkous> Rubidium: unproven? to the general pubic, certainly
19:52:13  <dihedral> is there any way that banning a player can temporarily be done on more constant data until the plans of the authentication server are ready?
19:52:19  <zeurkous> but I *KNOW* this will work
19:52:28  <Rubidium> zeurkous: where is the peer-reviewed paper?
19:52:34  <zeurkous> Rubidium: unproven? to the general pubic, certainly <--
19:52:50  <zeurkous> actions do speak louder then words
19:53:04  <Rubidium> so when I *KNOW* something can be wrong, it isn't wrong?
19:53:07  <dihedral> ip address in most cases is not very constant :-)
19:53:11  <Rubidium> *can't
19:53:16  <zeurkous> I'm not going to waste time on papers when I can also prove it by doing the Real Work(TM)
19:53:23  <Smoovious> <zeurkous> actions do speak louder then words <--- don't tell us... show us...
19:53:35  <dihedral> hehe
19:53:39  <dihedral> nice Smoovious
19:53:39  <Belugas> yup.  Proof by diff!
19:53:46  <zeurkous> Rubidium: I have run a lot of loosely related experiments
19:53:54  <zeurkous> the time has simply come to integrate it all
19:54:06  <zeurkous> Smoovious: as a said, with any luck, in a few years I'll show you pong :P
19:54:15  <zeurkous> I do not ask you believe anything what I say before that, only that you consider it
19:54:24  <Smoovious> and as I said... that was the only thing you've said that I agree with 100%
19:54:31  <zeurkous> don't misunderstand -- I'm not a creationist
19:54:51  <zeurkous> a lot of the design will not work out as well as planned, but for that something called 'creativity' was invented
19:55:08  <zeurkous> Smoovious: :P
19:55:08  <Smoovious> creativity wasn't "invented"
19:55:14  <zeurkous> a figure of speech
19:55:37  <peter1138> it is
19:55:39  <dihedral> hmm... perhaps einstein one seid - i call all my ideas "inventions"
19:55:42  <peter1138> i hold the patents
19:55:46  <dihedral> sorry - wrong line
19:55:48  <zeurkous> :P
19:55:49  * Smoovious ponders, "I wonder if this whole exchange is gonna show up on fugly soon..."
19:55:57  <dihedral> "creativity"
19:56:01  <zeurkous> fugly?
19:56:08  <dihedral> yeah - sweet
19:56:17  <Smoovious> zeurkous... google is your friend
19:56:20  <dihedral> that line was totaly worth it
19:56:30  * peter1138 yawns
19:56:33  <dihedral> the "fugly?" line
19:56:34  <zeurkous> Smoovious: rather my enemy, but I'm forced to use it since the alternatives are worse
19:57:03  <Smoovious> excuse me a minute... >goes off to the corner with the waste basket and promptly vomits into it<
19:57:27  <zeurkous> oh I see, the 1385713986891653819th 'post you funny things' site
19:57:40  <zeurkous> *offers Smoovious a glass of water*
19:57:49  <zeurkous> you = your </late>
19:58:23  <peter1138> feh
19:58:27  <peter1138> everyone typos that
19:58:33  <Smoovious> dude... you're talking yourself up sooooo much and trying to play off like you're the shit, sooooo hard... well... you're a talker... and in my experience... those who really do know their shit... don't feel the urge to talk about it like they got anything to prove
19:58:35  <zeurkous> :P
19:58:52  <zeurkous> Smoovious: in your experience yes
19:58:54  <Smoovious> you're trying sooo hard to prove something... so that gives the impression, you don't know jack
19:59:05  <zeurkous> there have been more people who doubted me the exact same way -- they came to regret it :P
19:59:21  <zeurkous> Smoovious: how did you reach that conclusion? :X
19:59:23  <Smoovious> if youknew your shit, you wouldn't need to talk about it... your work would speak for itself... but all you offer is vaporware...
19:59:31  <zeurkous> I'm not a marketeer, simply passionate about my work
19:59:45  <zeurkous> I _do_ need to work passionately on that aspect of my personality, though :X
19:59:48  <Smoovious> you're passionate about something it seems... it isn't your work tho
20:00:02  <Belugas> please guys... be quiet
20:00:11  * Smoovious nods to Belugas
20:00:11  <Belugas> it's getting boring
20:00:21  <zeurkous> Smoovious: the moment it fails I will t.... *shuts up*
20:00:27  <Rubidium> zeurkous: then show us a *working* example of an GUI application with network; otherwise your idea stays an idea
20:01:24  <zeurkous> xterm -e 'telnet 80'
20:01:36  <zeurkous> sorry, couldn't resist :X
20:02:04  <Belugas> zeurkous, i do not want to take sides, but Smoovious encountered some problems with OTTD, and he offered some solutions for OTTD.  That is a good way of doing.
20:02:14  <Belugas> so, i suggest you do the same.
20:02:18  <Belugas> it will benefit all
20:02:19  * Smoovious touches the brim of his black hat™ to Belugas
20:02:33  <zeurkous> Belugas: my solution simply involves heaps of work, so I do not expect you to implement it *at all*
20:02:53  <Smoovious> and I make no secret about how far behind the learning curve I am in the process
20:02:56  <zeurkous> but I hope the reasoning behind it will leave traces in the development process
20:03:23  <zeurkous> Smoovious: don't think about it as learning -- just about doing your job to the best of your ability
20:03:37  <Smoovious> I'd never do it as my job
20:03:56  <zeurkous> well, perhaps that's the difference between you and I
20:03:58  <Smoovious> decided in the mid 80's never to do it as a line of work... I didn't want to end up hating it
20:04:16  <Belugas> zeurkous, i did not said we took Smoovious's work as granted and ported it ring in trunk, in fact, we did not like one of his approach and did it our way, but the point is, it showed some alternatives
20:04:18  <Smoovious> I only do work that intrigues me
20:04:20  <zeurkous> I see it as my job to improve the world, and by programming I can do that
20:04:39  <zeurkous> Belugas: _I_ showed an alternative
20:04:43  <Smoovious> and I admit, I was a little put out by it at the time too...
20:04:49  <zeurkous> not an alternative piece of code, but an alternative strategy
20:04:53  <Belugas> no, zeurkous, you shoed an idea.
20:04:55  <Smoovious> :)
20:05:06  <Belugas> +w
20:05:11  <Belugas> typos...
20:05:16  <zeurkous> :P
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20:05:50  <zeurkous> Smoovious: I'm frequently put out with one piece of code, but there's always another and another and another
20:05:55  *** Purno_ [] has quit []
20:05:58  <Smoovious> (would this be a bad time to toss out a hint that I'd appreciate some more criticism of the last diff I posted on FS#532? :D )
20:06:05  <zeurkous> and then I try the first one again and it suddenly works
20:06:10  <zeurkous> matter of controlling emotions
20:06:16  <Smoovious> zeurkous... you totally missed what I was saying... again
20:06:26  <Smoovious> brb
20:06:43  <Rubidium> how often have I seen people developing a strategy that they you *KNOW* works, but once they have implemented it fails to work? Too often... and I think zeurkous might be uping that counter
20:07:24  <zeurkous> Rubidium: I'm taking a big risk by putting all my eggs in an unproven basket
20:07:26  <zeurkous> I know that
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20:07:44  <zeurkous> well, practically unproven -- the protoprotoprotoprototypes seem to work
20:08:37  <zeurkous> but I can not ignore the potential durability of this basket
20:10:41  <Rubidium> then make something to practically prove your ideas instead of telling people it works
20:11:04  <zeurkous> Rubidium: pff
20:11:18  <zeurkous> 1) I'm not telling you it works, I explain the logic and gather comments
20:11:25  <zeurkous> logic = reasoning
20:11:32  <Rubidium> written proof (as in a working application) has *much* more value than words from some random unknown person
20:11:45  <zeurkous> 2) I _am_ practically proving it -- but not all the time, due to practical concerns like this damn CRT screen that's locked at 60hz interlaced
20:12:00  <hylje> ouch
20:12:24  <Rubidium> 60Hz at work?
20:12:30  <zeurkous> a lot of equipment here is scheduled for replacement, but that'll take a while
20:12:33  <zeurkous> nope, at home
20:12:35  <Smoovious> who still uses CRT's?
20:12:36  <zeurkous> unemployed
20:12:52  <zeurkous> CRTs pwnage 8)
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20:13:20  <Rubidium> especially 60 Hz ones... the make my head spin around in seconds
20:13:23  <zeurkous> a E525 CRT has better performance than all those >E800 plasma and LCD screens I see everywhere
20:13:24  * Smoovious pictures zeurkous working with a green phosphor screen
20:13:29  <zeurkous> Rubidium: yeah, that sucks
20:13:53  <zeurkous> Smoovious: with an adequate refresh rate, that would rock 8)
20:14:19  <Belugas> [16:12] <Smoovious> who still uses CRT's?  <--  at home, i still do.  And i like it better then my flat LCD at work
20:14:55  <Smoovious> Belugas... I don't use LCD's either... but when I hear someone say CRT, I picture those old monochrome phosphor screens before the color RGB monitors
20:15:16  <hylje> :o
20:15:28  <hylje> my 21" crt is slowly dying on me
20:15:30  <Belugas> hehe wrong impression, i guess :)
20:15:43  <zeurkous> the oldest CRT screen I'm old enough for to have used is an amber phosphor screen at 13" or something
20:15:46  <Smoovious> like... those you use with the old monochrome HGA adapters
20:17:12  <peter1138> 19:49 < zeurkous> I work at home >:P
20:17:16  <peter1138> 20:11 < zeurkous> unemployed
20:17:18  <peter1138> hmm :p
20:17:19  <zeurkous> yup :P
20:17:49  <zeurkous> companies and other institutions seem to find me to have a 'very stronly defined personality'
20:18:08  <Smoovious> that's one way of putting it I guess
20:18:12  <zeurkous> >:P
20:18:28  <Rubidium> he just got fired ;)
20:18:40  <zeurkous> there is a reason why my nick is 'De Zeurkous'
20:18:44  <zeurkous> nope, never have been employed
20:18:56  <peter1138> it's not
20:18:58  <Rubidium> yeah I know, you are
20:19:08  <zeurkous> due to a hole in the law here in the Netherlands, my 'very strongly defined personality' qualifies as an illness
20:19:28  <Smoovious> which personality is it?
20:19:40  <zeurkous> because they can't bear to just say that a scarcity-based economy is crap because relatively unusual people don't fit in
20:19:45  <zeurkous> my personality :P
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20:19:54  <Smoovious> yes
20:19:55  <Smoovious> which one
20:20:08  <Smoovious> bah
20:20:10  <zeurkous> haven't met an equal yet in that aspect
20:20:16  <Smoovious> got better things to do right now
20:20:18  <peter1138> 'tedious' springs to mind
20:20:27  <zeurkous> 'De Zeurkous' is dutch for 'The Whining Bastard'
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20:20:35  <zeurkous> so that should explain a few things
20:22:11  <zeurkous> brb
20:24:14  <zeurkous> back
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20:38:33  <BlinK_> hello
20:38:44  <Belugas> hi
20:38:46  <zeurkous> haai
20:39:24  <BlinK_> in forum and in google i found lots of tutorials about making new grafics for TTDP and OTTD, but I didnt found any about coding new grafics... could anyone help me? i want to just add one parameter...
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20:41:10  <Maedhros> BlinK_: the specs are all here:
20:42:15  <BlinK_> ooh, thanks..
20:42:41  <Belugas> but ... adding a parameter seems quite a big task...
20:42:54  <Belugas> unless you meant change?
20:43:06  <BlinK_> no, I want to add..
20:43:57  <BlinK_> I am now editing one grf made by some other ppl.. it seems that there should be parameter, coz ir has many similar textures.. but i tried specifying parameter and nothing happened... so i guess this grf hasnt one..
20:44:45  <BlinK_> all these instructions for TTDP apply to OTTD as well? right?
20:44:50  <Maedhros> as Belugas says, parameters aren't easy things to add
20:45:04  <Maedhros> but yes, they (mostly) apply to openttd as well
20:45:45  <Smoovious> BlinK_... GRF parameters aren't 100% implemented yet... there is a page on the wiki which outlines which ones still have to be done for OTTD, but I don't know it off-hand
20:45:48  <BlinK_> i see, I still will try to read info and try it although ist hard
20:45:56  <Smoovious> somewhere on
20:46:05  <BlinK_> its*
20:46:34  <Maedhros> Smoovious: grf parameters are a specific thing, and as far as i know are supported as long as the rest of the grf is
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20:47:09  <Smoovious> Maedhros... the page on the wiki disagrees... the parameters of a GRF are useless if the program doesn't know what to do with them
20:47:22  <Smoovious> for example... new cargoes aren't supported yet
20:47:35  <Smoovious> same with long road vehicles
20:47:52  <Smoovious> or at least, not fully supported yet
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20:48:00  <Maedhros> those aren't paramters
20:48:03  <ln-> btw, 10.4.9 is out.
20:48:13  <Maedhros> grr, why do i always miss the 'e' in that word?
20:48:29  <Smoovious> then what parameter in particular is being referred to?
20:49:03  <Maedhros> the numbers you can add after grf files in the config file which change their behaviour
20:49:11  <Maedhros> (or in the newgrf gui)
20:50:32  <BlinK_> is TTDP still under development?
20:50:37  <Maedhros> yes
20:51:12  <Patrick> christ, it's ln-
20:51:18  <Patrick> I mean hi
20:52:04  <dihedral> ln: 10.4.9 is that for osx?
20:53:53  <ln-> dihedral: indeed.
20:54:11  <dihedral> sweet -
20:54:16  <dihedral> i go upgrade :-)
20:54:31  <dihedral> i cant wait for leopard actually
20:54:36  <dihedral> but any upgrade is good :-)
20:54:49  <Smoovious> Maedhros... you add parameters in the GRF meny
20:54:50  <Smoovious> menu
20:55:12  <Rubidium> dihedral: updrading Windows XP to Windows Vista too?
20:55:15  <Smoovious> or are you saying the parameter doesn't exist in the GRF to begin with
20:55:20  <dihedral> nope
20:55:28  <dihedral> why would i want to do that?
20:55:55  <dihedral> vista is a nasty copy
20:56:02  <Belugas> Smoovious : adding parameters in the gui is one thing, but the grf MUST be able to address those parameters
20:56:04  <Rubidium> you said any upgrade is good, I've just proven that your statement if false
20:56:08  <Belugas> otherwise, it's useless
20:56:08  <zeurkous> XP is a nasty copy of VMS, why use it then?
20:56:21  <Rubidium> *is
20:56:27  <dihedral> my statement was relative to *nix systems :-)
20:56:27  <peter1138> *yawn
20:56:28  <peter1138> *
20:56:33  <Maedhros> Smoovious: that's what i thought BlinK_ was asking about yes - adding a parameter to the grf itself
20:56:38  <peter1138> any chance of some less lame conversation?
20:56:48  <dihedral> sure
20:56:50  <BlinK_> yea, i was refering to that
20:56:55  <Smoovious> ahh...
20:56:57  <dihedral> banning clients
20:57:07  <zeurkous> hm, I can't recall ever having observerd non-lame conversation @ IRC
20:57:12  <Smoovious> so what is the parameter intended to do?
20:57:32  <zeurkous> might be mistaken
20:58:02  <dihedral> anybody think it might be a good idea to move to some more constant something (temporarily) rather than sticking to the ip?
20:58:03  <BlinK_> for example, if non parameter is pecified UKRS trains appear on temp climate, if 1 specified then trains appear on arctic climate and so on...
20:58:10  <dihedral> ip's for most clients will not be constant
20:58:21  <dihedral> at least not over a course of 48 hours
20:58:37  <zeurkous> dihedral: hm, more rules? I agree
20:58:40  <dihedral> and then it might hit somebody else
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20:59:12  <Smoovious> BlinK_... and the readme with the GRF doesn't already show a param for that?
20:59:18  <dihedral> even the client-id "can" be changed - but that appears even more constant than the ip
20:59:19  <BlinK_> yea it shows
20:59:25  <peter1138> dihedral: IP is the only constant thing there is
20:59:48  <Smoovious> then why don't you just set it?
20:59:50  <dihedral> ip aint constant...
20:59:56  <BlinK_> Smoovious i want to MAKE my grf accept parameters...
21:00:00  <zeurkous> dihedral: duh, but relatively constant
21:00:19  <dihedral> making the ban as effective as the kick
21:00:20  <peter1138> BlinK_: you need action... er.. 7 i think :p
21:00:39  <BlinK_> peter1138 thanks.. im reading nwegrf docs right now
21:00:39  <BlinK_> (;
21:00:40  <dihedral> like i said - over a cause of 48 hours
21:00:58  <dihedral> the ip will not be more consant than e.g. the client id
21:01:08  <zeurkous> as I understand it, an authd is in development?
21:01:15  <Smoovious> dunno... can't say I ever had a problem with a GRF rejecting a valid parameter
21:01:30  <dihedral> that is also why i mentioned the word temporarily
21:01:49  <zeurkous> better solve it right the first time
21:01:59  <zeurkous> nothing ain't as permanent as a temporary solution
21:02:04  <dihedral> wisdom is sprouting ....
21:02:08  <Maedhros> Smoovious: if you give grf files parameters that they don't know about, they'll just be ignored
21:02:11  <BlinK_> Smoovious i am creating my grf and i want it to accept parameters..
21:02:23  <dihedral> wow
21:02:30  <BlinK_> thats what i want to do.. is it clear now? (:
21:02:34  <dihedral> zeurkous: i am amazed!
21:02:35  <peter1138> Smoovious: have you ever created a grf?
21:02:42  <zeurkous> dihedral: what? :P
21:03:12  <dihedral> just for once imagine that authd is not finished as fast as you would like it to be
21:03:20  <zeurkous> put more work on it
21:03:28  <peter1138> authd?
21:03:28  <zeurkous> and otherwise keep quiet and have some patience
21:04:08  <dihedral> peter1138: that is waht zeurkous called it
21:04:23  <peter1138> like, port 113? ;p
21:04:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: KUDr * r9146 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [NTP][FS#676](r6800): "Train is lost" message is generated incorrectly. Forgot to set the best bird distance to zero in case we found the destination to indicate success. (de_zeurkous)
21:04:37  <dihedral> prob not
21:04:39  <zeurkous> peter1138: I meant it as a generic term for any authentication daemon
21:04:49  <peter1138> ah
21:04:53  <zeurkous> not The authd in particular
21:05:01  <peter1138> so who's creating an authd for what?
21:05:29  <dihedral> and otherwise keep quiet and have some patience << now if everybody did that - you could close down the suggestions section in tt-forums
21:05:38  <zeurkous> 09:00PM <dihedral> like i said - over a cause of 48 hours
21:05:38  <zeurkous> 09:00PM <dihedral> the ip will not be more consant than e.g. the client id
21:05:38  <zeurkous> <zeurkous> as I understand it, an authd is in development?
21:05:42  <zeurkous> 09:01PM <dihedral> that is also why i mentioned the word temporarily
21:05:49  <zeurkous> peter1138: that authd
21:05:54  <peter1138> yes
21:05:58  <peter1138> so who's doing that?
21:06:00  <zeurkous> dihedral: I mean, about this issue
21:06:10  <zeurkous> don't ask me :X
21:06:23  <Maedhros> i think you're the first person to mention it :p
21:06:24  <peter1138> so what gave you the idea that something was in development?
21:06:50  <peter1138> Maedhros: well, there was something a year or so ago that didn't get far, iirc
21:06:59  <zeurkous> some words here that I can't remember exactly and are out of the message buffer already
21:07:07  <zeurkous> that's why it was a question, if I had interpreted that correctly
21:07:18  <peter1138> ok
21:07:23  <peter1138> well the answer is no
21:07:27  <zeurkous> oh okay
21:07:31  <Maedhros> peter1138: was there? ok, i'll shut up then ;)
21:07:43  <dihedral> zeurkous: to be honest why do you just not ignore my questions if you are unsore?
21:07:51  <zeurkous> gotcha
21:07:51  <zeurkous> zeurkous@zeurcomp:~% grep 'auth' IrcLog
21:07:52  <zeurkous> 07:52PM <dihedral> is there any way that banning a player can temporarily be done on more constant data until the plans of the authentication server are ready?
21:07:52  <dihedral> *unsure
21:07:54  <peter1138> Maedhros: i don't remember if there was any code involved, and no devs were
21:08:04  <Maedhros> aha
21:08:25  <zeurkous> reminds me, need to fix the BitchX clock on this system
21:08:26  <dihedral> it was only a disuccion here
21:09:01  <zeurkous> brb
21:09:09  <dihedral> hence the workd 'plans' was used
21:09:10  <Rubidium> dihedral: there is no way to ban somebody who really wants to harm your server under the condition that it should be easy to join a multiplayer game
21:09:26  <zeurkous> back
21:09:29  <zeurkous> dihedral: oh okay </late>
21:09:35  <dihedral> i am not talking about players who are intentionally wanting to harm my server
21:09:47  <zeurkous> Rubidium: most of the people who would are arrogant scriptkiddies
21:10:09  <peter1138> src/console_cmds.cpp:           IConsoleHelp("Ban a player from a network game. Usage: 'ban <ip | client-id>'");
21:10:11  <dihedral> a lot of the players are even unfamiliar with ip addressing
21:10:13  <peter1138> hmm
21:10:32  <peter1138> but i guess that just looks up the ip and bans that
21:10:43  <Rubidium> zeurkous: scriptkiddies can do almost no harm
21:10:46  <dihedral> well - kicks the player first if online
21:10:58  <zeurkous> Rubidium: exactly my point
21:11:02  <Smoovious> <peter1138> Smoovious: have you ever created a grf? <--- not yet... tho I was kinda hoping to be able to contribute to one eventually... guess I just wasn't fully understanding what his issue was about them
21:11:22  <dihedral> zeurkous: you make less and less sence...
21:11:30  <zeurkous> most of the people who would bear a personal grudge against a server admin and disrupt normal operation aren't exactly clueful
21:11:52  <dihedral> so - there should be a way to actually ban players
21:12:00  *** boekabart [] has joined #openttd
21:12:24  <dihedral> a good and proper system can take a pretty long time to develop
21:12:28  <zeurkous> and no extensive technical measures are actually needed, because those people don't have a clue of them
21:12:32  <Belugas> night guys
21:12:40  <dihedral> night
21:12:41  <zeurkous> cya
21:13:00  <dihedral> so - for possibly a 'next release'
21:13:31  <dihedral> using more constant data than the ip address which will change when next signing up to your dsl or isdn account
21:13:55  <zeurkous> or perhaps establishing a connection with the rest of the Internet
21:14:11  <zeurkous> instead of simply 'signing into your account'
21:14:21  <dihedral> che?
21:14:38  <dihedral> principle behind dsl?
21:14:49  <dihedral> which i would rather not have to discuss...
21:14:55  <Smoovious> 'night, Belugas
21:15:45  <dihedral> anyway - point is - ip addresses for most players will change - possibly even multiple times during the day
21:15:46  <zeurkous> the principe behind DSL is salvaging unused bandwith on a line reserved for voice communications in potential unreliable situations for data transfer </late>
21:16:41  <zeurkous> dihedral: yup, something more permanent is needed
21:16:47  <Rubidium> dihedral: so will client ids, usernames etc (in case of banning people)
21:16:58  *** green-devil [] has joined #openttd
21:17:25  <zeurkous> when and how is a client id generated?
21:17:44  <dihedral> yeah - they can be changed
21:17:50  <Patrick> if it's too easy to change, there's no point
21:17:53  <Rubidium> doesn't matter, it is generated by the client, thus not useable for banning
21:18:03  <Patrick> unless you implement something like VAC
21:18:08  <Rubidium> VAC?
21:18:08  <dihedral> thankfully though some players are unaware of client-id's
21:18:16  <Patrick> but then that'd run foul of various spirit-of-GPL problems
21:18:20  <Patrick> valve's anticheat
21:18:23  <zeurkous> we could sneak in some server id's as well
21:18:34  <Patrick> the system that hilariously and mercilessly bans anyone cheating at counterstrike source
21:18:34  <zeurkous> or, rather, server-issued client ids
21:18:34  <Rubidium> Patrick: how would that work?
21:18:53  <Patrick> oh, it wouldn't
21:18:53  <Rubidium> zeurkous: how would you get those server-issues client ids?
21:19:02  <dihedral> zeurkous>	the principe behind DSL is salvaging unused bandwith on a line reserved for voice communications in potential unreliable situations for data transfer </late> << disagree - you only use the phoneline for less than 2 km
21:19:07  <zeurkous> well, the server could issue them upon connection
21:19:23  <zeurkous> initial connection, that is
21:19:30  <Rubidium> so they are of no use for banning purposes
21:19:36  <zeurkous> if the client has no specific server id, and it's not on the blacklist, it issues a new one
21:19:46  <zeurkous> well, it's one step more for scriptkiddies to take...
21:19:57  <dihedral> just one second - getting off topic
21:20:07  <dihedral> not looking at a permanent solution
21:20:17  <Rubidium> zeurkous: we don't care about scriptkiddies, we care about the people writing the scripts used by scriptkiddies
21:20:19  <dihedral> looking for something slightly more constant than the ip
21:20:20  <zeurkous> dihedral: after that, the DSL phase is over </late>, but let's get on topic indeed
21:20:37  *** Smoovious [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:20:40  <zeurkous> Rubidium: that's only a handful of people
21:20:51  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:20:57  <dihedral> zeurkous: :-) how one connects is way off topic anyway :-)
21:20:57  <zeurkous> hm, wait
21:21:00  <Rubidium> zeurkous: yes, but they MAKE the scripts used by the scriptkiddies
21:21:00  <zeurkous> I wonder
21:21:21  <zeurkous> how would Nepthys handle banning?
21:21:28  <zeurkous> it's very effective, I know from experience
21:21:40  <zeurkous> patch for Unreal btw
21:21:41  <dihedral> you been banned many times eh?
21:21:58  <zeurkous> no, but I've seen loads of irritating players being banned
21:22:07  *** Smoovious [] has joined #openttd
21:22:10  <dihedral> just wanting to be a little provocative :-)
21:22:17  <dihedral> no offence :-)
21:22:18  <zeurkous> such as the ones that keep shooting other players, or that don't ask if we also care to end the level, or those who spam, clone, whatever
21:22:23  <Maedhros> hehe, i love getting random drunken phonecalls from friends :)
21:22:31  <zeurkous> dihedral: I can only recall being banned once from an IRC channel
21:22:53  <dihedral> never be banned before
21:23:05  <zeurkous> because they were losing a debate 8)
21:23:18  <hylje> :>
21:23:20  <dihedral> let me rephrase that: nevber been banned
21:23:36  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
21:23:37  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
21:25:30  <zeurkous> how many serious attacks have there been as of this date?
21:25:50  <dihedral> i am not talking about attacks
21:26:07  <dihedral> i am more thinking along the lines of "mildly" ennoying players
21:26:29  <zeurkous> such as those who keep building shortcut roads over railways so that everyone's vehicles crash? :P
21:26:31  <Patrick> there was one "attack" once, where some knob found an exploit in the code that allowed them to kill servers on demand
21:26:34  <zeurkous> </guess>
21:26:42  <Patrick> zeurkous: yes, or buying all land around a factory
21:26:46  <Patrick> or flooding 9/10 of the map
21:26:48  <zeurkous> rofl
21:27:12  <dihedral> once they get behind the fact that an admin cannot really ban
21:27:15  <Patrick> or building signals every tile to stop bridges (but that's a legitimate accident, and it will be allowed soon anyway
21:27:20  <dihedral> aye
21:27:22  <Mortomes> Or buying land around a railway you're building.
21:27:35  <Patrick> hostmask bans work for IRC, well enough
21:27:38  <dihedral> bad language...
21:27:43  <Patrick> implement a *!*@* based ban system
21:27:47  <Patrick> well, *@*
21:27:58  <zeurkous> *#*!*@*
21:28:10  <Mortomes> Or putting a single locomotive train on your roads.
21:28:14  <zeurkous> clientid#nick!luser@host
21:28:19  <zeurkous> lol
21:28:26  <Patrick> there's already lots of irc-ism's on the commandline
21:28:27  <Patrick> why not one more
21:29:09  <zeurkous> but still, you would be banning whole networks
21:29:13  <zeurkous> in case of the el cheapo providers
21:29:20  <zeurkous> providers = ISPs, dutchism, sorry
21:29:32  <dihedral> think we all understood
21:29:43  <zeurkous> oh okay :P
21:30:41  <dihedral> reading hardware details as one example
21:30:50  <dihedral> ie - pci bus id
21:31:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9147 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r1770, r8161): when loadin games, enroute_from and enroute_from_xy were updated in the wrong place, causing issues with TTD savegames/scenarios.
21:31:59  <zeurkous> hm, does PCI use UIDs?
21:32:06  <zeurkous> U as in unique btw
21:32:13  <dihedral> pretty much
21:32:27  <dihedral> they are used for licensing gibraltar
21:32:45  <dihedral> cpu id
21:32:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9148 /branches/noai/ (config.lib src/stdafx.h):
21:32:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added 32/64bit detection support in config.lib
21:32:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Add: added squirrel support in config.lib
21:32:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Add: allow -DTESTING to be given to stdafx, to no include any endian_XXX
21:32:56  <dihedral> i know i know - that does not mean you will transmit that id
21:33:11  <dihedral> a player can still compile their own version
21:33:22  <peter1138> zeurkous: not generally
21:33:28  <dihedral> but i am traying to get to those players who _would not_ do that
21:33:29  <peter1138> only device ids
21:33:30  <zeurkous> another step that may bore the attacker
21:33:42  <dihedral> aye
21:33:47  <Rubidium> dihedral: then the client id is enough for you
21:33:56  <dihedral> actually ... kinda
21:34:03  <zeurkous> peter1138: oh okay </late>
21:34:09  <dihedral> the client id is a little to obviouse :-)
21:34:23  <dihedral> but for starters :-)
21:34:25  <dihedral> aint going to say no
21:34:28  <zeurkous> the MAC addresses of all local NICs?
21:34:31  <SpComb> woo, squirrel support
21:34:34  <SpComb> squirrels are fun
21:34:34  <zeurkous> could all be criteria
21:34:38  <peter1138> squirrelmail support!
21:34:43  <peter1138> play by mail
21:34:47  <dihedral> hehe
21:35:03  <dihedral> certificates
21:35:10  <zeurkous> who's going to issue them?
21:35:11  <dihedral> signed by a openttd ca
21:35:16  <zeurkous> rofl
21:35:16  <dihedral> automatically
21:35:31  <dihedral> only accepting each email address once - and each playername
21:35:50  <dihedral> ...nasty... :-D
21:35:54  <peter1138> nobody would do it
21:35:59  <dihedral> hehe
21:36:02  <peter1138> need a reinstall?
21:36:07  <dihedral> then nobody would play multiplayer :-D
21:36:31  <peter1138> a login system would only work if there were some benefits to it
21:36:38  <Rubidium> dihedral: certificates are useless, because you can easily request a new one
21:36:38  <dihedral> certs issued appon donation :-D
21:36:46  <peter1138> in an fps, that's easy. a ranking system
21:37:12  <dihedral> Rubidium: hence only accepting each email once
21:37:17  <zeurkous> back
21:37:21  <dihedral> once banned one would need a new email
21:37:27  <zeurkous> sorry, got called away
21:37:29  <dihedral> at some point that will be more tedious than worth
21:37:39  <zeurkous> don't say that too hard
21:37:51  <zeurkous> echo 'blaatnerd:x:6971:100:,,,:/var/nobody:/bin/nologin' >>/etc/passwd
21:38:13  <Rubidium> dihedral: I've got an infinite amount of email adresses
21:38:19  <Rubidium> (well, nearly infinite)
21:38:21  <zeurkous> Rubidium: exactly my point
21:38:24  <dihedral> me too
21:38:39  <dihedral> but then look at the people who play
21:38:44  <zeurkous> but will persistent attackers run UNIX?
21:39:04  <dihedral> most players dont even know the word domain
21:39:07  <dihedral> mailexchange
21:39:09  <dihedral> etc
21:39:10  <zeurkous> pr0n
21:39:40  <zeurkous> those players should be banned from using the internet :/
21:40:04  <zeurkous> sorry for my elitism here, but IMO that's basic knowledge
21:40:05  <dihedral> great comment :-P
21:40:18  <zeurkous> ty :P
21:40:33  <dihedral> once you do 1st and 2nd level support (for any reason) you shall learn
21:40:47  <dihedral> that aint funny in any way either
21:40:57  <zeurkous> support? as in helldesk operator?
21:41:02  <dihedral> no
21:41:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9149 /branches/noai/src/ai/core/ai_controller.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: unneeded 'public:' (Rubidium)
21:41:11  <dihedral> as in visiting clients and helping them out
21:41:20  <zeurkous> omg :R
21:41:24  <dihedral> aye
21:41:28  <PandaMojo> ...nobody knows the word domain from the start >_>
21:41:47  <dihedral> got the first one right there :-D
21:41:48  <zeurkous> PandaMojo: ||
21:42:13  <PandaMojo> Now, the people with 0 knowledge of internet configuration hitting up an unrelated developer channel/list (such as #gamedev) for #techsupport?
21:42:17  <PandaMojo> Those people should be castrated.
21:42:24  <dihedral> anyway - those who would want to attack a server will hardly try doing that via openttd
21:42:28  <zeurkous> no, they shouldn't be castrated :/
21:42:33  <zeurkous> they should simply not be antropomorphized
21:42:42  <zeurkous> let them live freely in their natural environment
21:42:48  <zeurkous> what was it called? the Real World(TM)?
21:42:55  <dihedral> they will more lilely want to use some other exploit
21:43:01  <dihedral> dos or ddos attac
21:43:03  <dihedral> k
21:43:25  <zeurkous> well, I see 3 classes of 'problem lusers' here being discussed as one
21:43:37  <zeurkous> 1) the AOLers, who don't have a clue
21:43:41  <zeurkous> 2) scriptkiddies
21:43:50  <zeurkous> 3) serious attackers
21:44:07  <zeurkous> measures for 1) should be fairrly trivial
21:44:11  <dihedral> 4) windows users
21:44:15  <zeurkous> fits in with 1)
21:44:24  <zeurkous> apple users at 1.5)
21:44:30  <dihedral> ah
21:44:32  <dihedral> hold on a sec
21:44:34  <zeurkous> :P
21:44:42  <dihedral> i use win apple *nix
21:44:53  <zeurkous> anyway, client ID and the server ID I proposed should be more then adequate to deal with 1)
21:45:04  <dihedral> aye
21:45:27  <dihedral> as long as one does not ban thee server's clientid :-D
21:45:29  <Rubidium> clientID already happens
21:45:36  <zeurkous> I use Win98SE for my DOS stuff and occasionally Win2000
21:45:40  <zeurkous> never mac
21:45:45  <zeurkous> rest UNIX, have to try Plan 9 some time
21:45:56  <Smoovious> so you fit in with #1 then?
21:46:04  <Smoovious> couldn't resist... >goes back to reading code<
21:46:07  <zeurkous> nope, with 69) people with a clue
21:46:08  <zeurkous> :P
21:46:09  <SpComb> you forgot 5) ninjas
21:46:14  <zeurkous> rest UNIX, have to try Plan 9 some time <---
21:46:18  <PandaMojo> Ninjas are a given.
21:46:20  <dihedral> Rubidium: you telling me that the clientid is used to ban players in 0.5.0?
21:46:26  <PandaMojo> There's just nothing you can do about Ninjas.
21:46:39  <Rubidium> can be used (AFAIK)
21:46:40  <SpComb> self-destruct
21:46:57  <dihedral> hehe - the <clientid> you see in the help message?
21:47:19  <Rubidium> yes
21:47:27  <dihedral> that is the id the client has in the game and not the 32 alphanumerical string
21:47:31  <dihedral> id
21:47:33  <dihedral> ban 1
21:47:39  <Rubidium> oh, doh.. that's some other id
21:47:41  <dihedral> or ban
21:47:45  <dihedral> hehe
21:48:02  <BlinK_> do anyone know what NewGRF is with the id TW90? Or what author initials could be TW?
21:48:23  *** boekabart [] has quit [Quit: Your eyes grow heavy.. you grow very sleepy..... zzzz...]
21:48:45  <valhallasw> anyone here who has a diamondmax 8 40GB somewhere? I'm looking for a 6E040L0 (as it is possibly the PCB that gave up)
21:49:02  <dihedral> ebay
21:49:21  <mggrant> hmm, I might have some diamondmax's kicking around, but can't remember what size
21:49:26  <zeurkous> lol, playing cheap?
21:49:31  <valhallasw> no
21:49:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r9150 /branches/gamebalance/src/fixedt.h: [gamebalance] -Add: a function to compute the n-th root of a FixedT.
21:49:42  <valhallasw> it's not like you can get specific pcb's in stores
21:49:47  <valhallasw> ebay has some, but non useable
21:49:58  <zeurkous> why not just replace the drive?
21:50:01  <mggrant> valhallasw: I'll have a look in a little bit - are you likely to lurk?
21:50:11  <valhallasw> mggrant: yeah, I'm idling 24/7
21:50:23  <valhallasw> zeurkous: because there is data on there
21:50:24  <valhallasw> duh.
21:50:37  <zeurkous> we have a file server for that :P
21:50:57  <mggrant> perfect, I'll go look a bit later then - PM me if I seem to have forgotten :)
21:51:01  <valhallasw> thx
21:51:26  <zeurkous> keeping important data on a single, consumer-grade drive *sigh*
21:51:42  <valhallasw> gast, houd je bek echt
21:51:49  <zeurkous> zijn we beledigd?
21:52:07  <valhallasw> je komt typisch met de opmerkingen die alleen maar irritant zijn en compleet niet constructief
21:52:21  <valhallasw> nee, mensen hebben typisch thuis geen storage system staan. Vind je het gek?
21:52:23  <zeurkous> als je een probleem hebt, zeg je het eerst maar netjes in het eng0ls
21:52:30  <zeurkous> dit is een publiek, engels kanaal
21:52:34  <zeurkous> daar spreek je geen NL
21:52:50  <dihedral> that all looks like gibberish to me
21:52:52  <zeurkous> dutch
21:52:57  <valhallasw> that was exactly the idea
21:53:09  <zeurkous> valhallasw first insulted me
21:53:20  <zeurkous> after that, he tried to argue with me about his storage system
21:53:23  <zeurkous> </summary>
21:53:29  <valhallasw> </bad summary>
21:53:30  <valhallasw> now stfu
21:53:43  <zeurkous> oh wait, I reprimanded him about speaking a foreign language in an english channel
21:53:46  <zeurkous> </good summary>
21:53:48  <zeurkous> apologies
21:53:51  <zeurkous> forgot that
21:53:51  <valhallasw> :P
21:53:53  <zeurkous> :P
21:54:25  <zeurkous> brb
21:54:28  <valhallasw> Yeah. I told him it was a bad idea to annoy people who are trying to recover data with things like 'tsh. Only one consumer-grade disk?'
21:55:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9151 /branches/noai/ (10 files in 6 dirs):
21:55:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added squirrel module that loads squirrel scripts and
21:55:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  executes them. For now it only spams the consule with "gameLoop"
21:55:55  <zeurkous> back
21:55:58  <zeurkous> sorry, nature called
21:56:12  <zeurkous> anyway, it was not my intention to annoy
21:56:23  <zeurkous> but to deliver constructive criticism about your storage system
21:56:44  <valhallasw> oh really.
21:56:53  <valhallasw> *my* storage system is fine, thank you
21:56:59  <zeurkous> it's a far larger pain in the ass to reconstruct data compared to implementing basic redundancy
21:57:08  <zeurkous> like the heisenberg compensators? >:P
21:57:14  <Smoovious> z's just like that... pay him no mind...
21:57:33  *** EER|OTTD [~Henk@] has joined #openttd
21:57:38  <zeurkous> nope, I'd rather have your soul >:P
21:57:45  <zeurkous> sorry, couldn't resist
21:58:12  <EER|OTTD> how much do you pay for souls, maybe I'm interested in selling mine >:D
21:59:08  <zeurkous> I usually pay in rants
21:59:10  <EER|OTTD> anyway, on a more serious note, I'm currently using the latest nightly to host a server, but the console does not appear when pressing ~, new feature?
21:59:15  <zeurkous> you can get a virtually infinite amount of rants for your soul
21:59:19  <Patrick> squirrel scripts?
21:59:22  <Patrick> I've been gone too long
21:59:28  *** Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@] has joined #openttd
22:00:17  <peter1138> Patrick: about 10 minutes, i think
22:00:24  <peter1138> it was only started yesterday
22:00:29  <Patrick> oh, fair enough
22:00:33  <Patrick> some new way of doing AI?
22:00:36  <peter1138> apparently
22:00:39  <peter1138> i've no idea
22:01:11  <Rubidium> zeurkous: stop ranting
22:01:18  <Rubidium> EER|OTTD: it should 'just' work
22:01:28  <Rubidium> as it works for me
22:01:30  <zeurkous> Rubidium: I just stopped :X
22:01:38  <zeurkous> it's that kind of accusations that starts me again :P
22:01:50  <EER|OTTD> are there any settings that could stop it from appearing? keymaps for example?
22:01:58  <Rubidium> did it work in the previous nightlies?
22:02:28  <EER|OTTD> it didn't in 9035 as well, however, my clients say it works for them, so it probably is related to me being server or a setting
22:02:43  *** BobingAbout [~BobingAbo@adsl-83-100-180-33.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
22:02:44  <EER|OTTD> (9035 is an estimate, it was last saturday)
22:02:45  *** BobingAbout [~BobingAbo@adsl-83-100-180-33.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit []
22:02:48  <Rubidium> what OS do you run it on?
22:02:52  <EER|OTTD> XP
22:03:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r9152 /branches/gamebalance/src/ (economy_new.cpp economy_new.h town.h town_cmd.cpp): [gamebalance] -Add: Towns now have an economic activity level so that poorer and richer towns can occur on the map
22:03:37  *** Mortomes [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:03:43  <Rubidium> it shouldn't be related to it being a server
22:03:47  <peter1138> works for me
22:03:56  <EER|OTTD> I'll try starting another instance
22:04:01  <peter1138> usefullest comment ever
22:04:11  * peter1138 ponders that sleep thing
22:04:33  <EER|OTTD> nope, it doesn't work in sp as well, I'll check if I remove cfg
22:04:40  <valhallasw> Oh my god, it's almost r10000-party-time :D
22:05:17  <SpComb> still several hundred commits to go
22:05:19  <zeurkous> r16000, you mean
22:05:36  <zeurkous> at least that's a round number
22:05:40  <Rubidium> valhallasw: that happened about 125 revisions ago
22:06:24  <Smoovious> r16384
22:06:30  <EER|OTTD> weird, removing cfg doesn't do the trick, I'll try a vanilla setup of OTTD
22:07:40  <EER|OTTD> nope, maybe it's my keyboard layout, US International, I'll try US
22:07:51  <valhallasw> doh.
22:08:06  <valhallasw> Rubidium: I mean new-svn-r10000-time :p
22:08:06  <zeurkous> Smoovious: yeah, that's what I meant -- been up for 72 hours :/
22:08:09  <zeurkous> </late>
22:08:15  <Smoovious> yes, it was the keyboard layout... you have to hit the ~ key twice
22:08:34  <Smoovious> er, the ` key
22:08:58  <Patrick> we passed the mark where the new repo is 10x bigger than the old one
22:09:00  <EER|OTTD> indeed
22:09:07  <EER|OTTD> keyboard layout did the trick
22:09:37  <EER|OTTD> however, pressing it twice does not work (I tried hitting it repeatedly when it didn't appear at once ;))
22:09:43  <Sacro|Laptop> !calc 8+14
22:09:43  <Rubidium> so it's Windows' keyboard handling that messes with stuff (again)
22:09:44  <_42_> Sacro|Laptop: 22;
22:09:57  <zeurkous> Rubidium: ever heard of something it doesn't screw up?
22:09:58  <EER|OTTD> yes it is :)
22:10:04  <EER|OTTD> shall I report a bug on sf?
22:10:08  <valhallasw> zeurkous: it's the 40GB maxtors... only the 40GB'ers |:(
22:10:10  <EER|OTTD> or wherever
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22:10:31  <Rubidium> EER|OTTD: no, there is nothing we can do about that as it is actually windows causing the problem
22:10:34  <zeurkous> valhallasw: nice :|
22:10:56  <Rubidium> pressing ` once will not even send a key event to handle
22:11:03  <Smoovious> EER|OTTD... it isn't an OTTD issue... the international layout is behaving properly... when hitting `, it waits for another keypress for the accented letter... you have to hit ` twice to get a `
22:11:09  <EER|OTTD> that makes sense :)
22:11:25  <zeurkous> in any case, hopefully that will be a lesson to you, although this isn't exactly the nicest way to learn it
22:11:27  <zeurkous> anyway
22:11:27  <EER|OTTD> is there somewhere on the wiki where it would be suitable for me to document this?
22:11:37  <Rubidium> zeurkous: I haven't seen it screw up BSODs
22:11:44  <zeurkous> Rubidium: I have 8)
22:11:45  <EER|OTTD> that'll teach me to be european using windows
22:12:04  <zeurkous> it fscked up the video controller
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22:12:57  <valhallasw> zeurkous: You're trying to tell me your parents do have a RAID1 system?
22:12:58  <zeurkous> anyway, I'm going to dedicate a few hours to obsolescent biological functions
22:13:12  <zeurkous> valhallasw: yup, the fileserver in the attic
22:13:27  <zeurkous> I can easily reinstall slack on desktops
22:13:33  <Smoovious> attic? bad place to house heat-generating equipment
22:13:36  <dihedral> off to bed... 'night everyone
22:13:42  <zeurkous> Smoovious: the attic is a dedicated room here
22:14:02  <zeurkous> with all the usual facilities
22:14:13  <Rubidium> only an attic is not enough
22:14:23  <Smoovious> then it isn't an attic anymore
22:14:34  <zeurkous> dutchism again, sorry
22:14:37  <dihedral> true - attics are to small - rack-cages are more fun :-)
22:14:50  <Smoovious> putting a commode in the closet, doesn't keep it a closet
22:15:09  <zeurkous> dihedral: have an el cheapo one in there
22:15:09  <dihedral> but it does not make the closet a rack
22:15:12  <zeurkous> </late>
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22:15:25  <Smoovious> nope... makes it a loo
22:15:26  <dihedral> rack or a cage
22:15:33  <zeurkous> 19" rack
22:15:39  <zeurkous> or cage, whatever
22:15:47  <dihedral> yeah - check ibm for their cages :-)
22:15:57  <dihedral> sweet stuff man
22:15:59  <dihedral> sweet stuff
22:16:01  <zeurkous> yeah, I know
22:16:12  <zeurkous> anyway, I'm going to dedicate a few hours to obsolescent biological functions <---
22:16:23  <zeurkous> after 72.8 hours I'm falling apart
22:16:27  <dihedral> 6 racks, 3 on each side + door in the biddle + many, many fans for air circulation
22:16:51  <dihedral> *sigh*
22:17:11  <zeurkous> well, cya
22:17:13  <dihedral> want one, inc. the 1 or 2 u servers
22:17:13  *** zeurkous [] has quit [Quit: BitchX: it adds that extra uNF to your sex life!]
22:17:31  <dihedral> me too
22:17:33  <dihedral> night
22:17:46  *** dihedral [] has quit [Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox]]
22:17:53  <peter1138> problem with 1U or 2U servers is massive power requirements
22:18:08  <Rubidium> finally zeurkous is gone :)
22:18:13  <peter1138> woo!
22:18:18  <peter1138> ban! ban!
22:18:23  <Smoovious> my feelings too, Rubidium... didn't wanna say it tho :)
22:18:34  *** mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
22:18:37  <Rubidium> there you go :)
22:18:50  <Rubidium> go ahead :)
22:19:19  <Smoovious> now that he's gone and I don't have to chance him volunteering... would one of you coders mind looking at my diff from yesterday, give me some more criticism?
22:20:00  * Smoovious will be very feedback-needy for a while.
22:20:10  <Smoovious> FS#532
22:20:15  <peter1138> well
22:20:17  <peter1138> i cba for one
22:20:28  <Smoovious> cba?
22:20:35  <peter1138> got my own problems to look at :p
22:20:37  <peter1138> can't be arsed
22:20:41  <Smoovious> ahh
22:21:21  <Smoovious> I got my next thing to start on already in mind... wanna get this one behind me first. >grins< and I got all day to code, so I'm just getting impatient. :D
22:21:51  <Smoovious> no biggie...
22:22:51  <Rubidium> Smoovious: what the frack did you do with TextMessageDailyLoop?
22:24:06  <Smoovious> there was a FOR loop that checked every message unnecessarily... and there was no reason to go through the whole thing, every single time, when it'll go through it once a game-day anyways
22:24:25  <Smoovious> anyways, works just fine, and looks good to me
22:26:25  <Smoovious> the oldest message will always be the 0 message... and if that gets expired, the next one will be checked on the next loop and so on... the for loop seemed like overkill, especially since all the messages will be expiring in the same time frame
22:26:36  <Smoovious> you'll never have a middle message expire before the top one
22:27:20  <Rubidium> the last might be true, but you could have all messages expiring at the same time
22:27:51  <Wolf01> night
22:27:55  <Rubidium> and now it's going to take 2 seconds for the next message is going to disappear
22:28:04  <Smoovious> perhaps... but they will gradually expire anyways... instead of looping through all 24 entryes, every single game day
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22:28:18  <Smoovious> and that's a problem?
22:28:34  <Smoovious> most messages will be gradually dissapearing anyways
22:29:01  <Smoovious> is having 2 messages poofing at exactly the same time, worth looping through 24 times each game day?
22:29:27  <Rubidium> Smoovious: you can just loop till the conditions aren't met anymore
22:29:37  <Smoovious> why loop anyways...
22:29:40  <Rubidium> and those 24 messages aren't peanuts
22:29:41  <Smoovious> it is unnecessary
22:30:32  <Rubidium> because with 1 chat message every 2 seconds my screen will always be filled with 24 messages, even when I set the timeout to 5 seconds
22:30:41  <Rubidium> which can be hugely annoying
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22:31:48  <Smoovious> well, if you set the timeout to 5 seconds, the other limit will be the one met last anyways...the one about 10 game days
22:32:27  <Smoovious> so if you're chatting while paused, you won't have everything dissapearing all at once
22:32:53  <Smoovious> once you unpause
22:33:00  <Rubidium> imho the chat messages should not care about game dates
22:34:07  <Smoovious> I don't think so either... but if we aren't going to have messages expire gradually, then I would want to keep the 10 game days so the messages don't just poof when you restart from paused if they're over the time limit... and if we're going to get rid of the 10 game day limit, then I'd wanna keep the gradual poofing
22:34:42  <Rubidium> just get rid of the 10 day game limit
22:34:58  <Smoovious> I could add in another setting, so you can choose how many messages to keep on the screen max
22:35:23  <Smoovious> just for you :D
22:35:48  * Smoovious knew he was going to have to defend removing the for loop
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22:39:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9153 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/SQNoAI/main.sq src/ai/squirrel/squirrel.cpp):
22:39:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added a bit more code to the script to show how classes work (and that instances stay alive)
22:39:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: gameLoop -> GameLoop
22:39:57  <Smoovious> aside from that... any style issues I need to address while I'm in there?
22:41:36  <Rubidium> time_t tstamp is unneeded
22:41:47  <Smoovious> okee
22:41:48  <Rubidium> just do time(&tmsg->time_stamp)
22:42:03  <Smoovious> thanky
22:42:30  <Rubidium> maybe rename the time_stamp to a better name and add _patches.text_stays_visible to that, so you do not need to do that later
22:42:53  <Rubidium> or add _patches.text_stays_visible to tstamp in TextMessageDailyLoop
22:42:59  <Smoovious> but then if you change the delay time, you have to wait for the old text to catch up first
22:43:06  <Rubidium> oh, the first time_t removal was for in AddTextMessage
22:43:20  <Smoovious> if I do the math during the deletion check, changing the setting would take effect immediately
22:44:27  <Rubidium> Smoovious: though about that too, but then it's easier to add _patches.text... to the tstamp in TextMessageDailyLoop
22:45:58  <Smoovious> that would reverse the condition, and I'd have to code it differently
22:46:05  *** Osai^Kendo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:46:10  <Smoovious> or
22:46:15  <Smoovious> ok, I know what you're getting at
22:46:47  <Smoovious> tmsg->time_stamp + _patches.etc > tstamp   instead if the current way
22:50:05  <Rubidium> huh?
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22:52:30  <Smoovious> ok, maybe I didn't get what you were getting at with the last one
22:52:50  <Smoovious> but I think I get it now, thinking of it differently
22:52:55  <Smoovious> hang on, will have a diff in a few
22:53:50  <Smoovious> er... maybe not
22:53:55  * Smoovious frowns.
22:54:59  <Smoovious> if I do: time( &tstamp - _patch.text_stays_visible )... would tstamp end up being _patch less than time()?
22:55:45  <Smoovious> probably have to do it in a seperate line...
22:55:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9154 /branches/noai/src/ai/squirrel/squirrel.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: print compile-time errors too
22:55:54  * Smoovious is more talking to himself than anything
22:56:29  <Rubidium> Smoovious: yes you have to do that on a separate line
22:57:37  <EER|OTTD> by the way, with US International keyboard in XP it seems impossible to open the console window (even when pressing ` twice, or pressing `+space), a workaround in windows would be to configure the keyboard non-international, a workaround OpenTTD could provide is mappable console key (low priority ofcourse)
22:58:20  *** Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:01:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r9155 /branches/noai/src/ai/squirrel/squirrel.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: forgot a line of comments
23:03:19  <Smoovious> building... smoke, brb
23:03:52  <Rubidium> yeah, I would leave the building too if it's smoking
23:04:03  <Belugas> EER|OTTD, there must be something else.  I have a us int. kbd on XP both at work and at home.  I've never experienced any problem while opening the console...
23:04:18  <Mortomes> And this is why smoking kills. you.
23:04:26  <Mortomes> Without the first . even.
23:04:28  <EER|OTTD> have you configured it as such in windows as well?
23:05:09  <Smoovious> Rubidium... depends on what it is built out of... if it was made with hemp? yeah, I'm staying put... maybe quick run out to the corner store for a bag of chips or something, but be right back
23:05:15  <EER|OTTD> maybe because my input language is Dutch that could be a special case
23:05:39  <EER|OTTD> Belugas, what input language is your keyboard set to?
23:05:45  <Belugas> that could very well be, EER|OTTD.
23:05:49  <Belugas> it's in english
23:06:29  <EER|OTTD> so that'd be EN-US with US International layout?
23:10:54  * Smoovious recompiles... (missed a semicolon. :D )
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23:20:30  <EER|OTTD> anyway, got to go, I hope it's some configuration problem on my machine
23:20:35  <EER|OTTD> 'night everyone
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23:27:17  <Smoovious> diff posted
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