Log for #openttd on 20th March 2007:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:01  <GhostBear> Erm?
00:01:14  <GhostBear> Is signal system changed from original TTD? o_O
00:02:04  <GhostBear> I still getting troubles with it! :o
00:05:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r9358 /branches/0.5/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
00:05:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r9055, r9082, r9083, r9084, r9085, r9086):
00:05:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Codechange: Change windows unicode handling and allow a pure non-unicode build to function. (r9055)
00:05:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Codechange: [win32] Update VS2003 and VS2005 project files to build in UNICODE
00:05:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: mode. When making a release it is probably better to make two binaries, one
00:05:10  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: without UNICODE, the other with, guaranteeing full Win9x compatibility (UNICODE
00:05:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: with MSLU also works, without it's even better). (r9082)
00:07:44  <Ailure> GhostBear: Howso?
00:07:46  <Ailure> What kind of troubles
00:07:47  <Ailure> <_<
00:11:37  <GhostBear> Erm
00:11:58  <GhostBear> Trains acting strangly
00:12:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9359 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_map.cpp ai_map.hpp): [NoAI] -Add: function to determine distance and clear tiles.
00:12:44  <GhostBear> I think now i know way to bulid normal railroad but still not sure what it will work with lots of crosses :o
00:12:51  <Zuu> GhostBear: I recommendate reading about Pre-signals on the Wiki.
00:13:13  <Zuu> Some other pages might too be of interest.
00:14:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9360 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/api/ai_cargo.hpp squirrel_helper.hpp):
00:14:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: class-functions can now be static and still be added to SQ. There they behave as they are non-static, which is fine for that level of coding.
00:14:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Change: changed IsValidCargo to a static member
00:15:11  <GhostBear> when development of openttd what started?
00:16:19  <Zuu> GhostBear: Try to rewrite your question so it is clear what you are asking about. :)
00:17:35  <GhostBear> Yeah, my english sux :>
00:18:12  <GhostBear> Date of birth of openttd
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00:19:31  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9361 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: some function to find, build and sell road vehicles.
00:20:53  <GhostBear> =\
00:21:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9362 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/ (regression.nut regression.txt): [NoAI] -Add: added the new AIMap() functions to regression-test
00:27:55  <GhostBear> sya
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00:30:16  <Zuu> Hmm.. just updated and recompiled from svn, and allready old .. :p  ... Good work! :)
00:30:59  <Zuu> Got to go to bed now.. Night everybody!
00:32:08  <Smoovious> you can't go to bed yet
00:32:18  <TrueBrain> night Zuu :)
00:32:23  <Smoovious> you just finished recompiling... now you gotta do at LEAST an hour to test... more like 2
00:37:21  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9363 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r9322:9362
00:41:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9364 /branches/noai/src/ (players.cpp saveload.cpp saveload.h settings.cpp):
00:41:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: make our savegame bump an enum, so we can jump easier with trunk savegame bumps
00:41:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Note: savegames from before this commit made with this branch are now invalid (and this will happen every trunk savegame bump!)
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01:04:25  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9365 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/ (regression.sav regression.txt): [NoAI] -Fix: fixed the regression.sav to load correct and adjust regression result according (with a big tnx to glx!)
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01:16:17  <Sacro> i found a graphics clipping bug in 0.5.0
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01:26:47  <_Ben_> anyone around who knows how far appart sleepers usually are?
01:29:28  <Smoovious> it depends on the railway, what type, the loads being carried, etc...
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01:30:36  <Smoovious> but generally... if you don't see ballast between them, they're too close... and if they resemble a 3-sleeper 45-degree Lionel curve track, they're too far
01:32:44  <_Ben_> What would a common line in the uk be, with stones and stuff between and all over the sleepers be?
01:33:54  <Sacro> _Ben_: about |<------------------------------->| (not to scale)
01:34:52  <_Ben_> whats that in imperial then?!
01:36:43  <Smoovious> why not think of a specific line, and then google... google is your friend, ya know
01:36:48  <glx> french wiki says "1666 sleepers/km for SNCF" but I don't see anything about that in english wiki
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01:37:54  <_Ben_> thanks Smoovious, I hadn't heard of google
01:39:51  <_Ben_> glx, thank.  I've modelled them at 16 per tile, that figure would suggest about 20
01:39:56  <_Ben_> thanks*
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02:24:22  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belugas * r9366 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp table/town_land.h town.h town_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Unify the different houses acceptances attributes on their cargo counterpart, as well as specifying cargo slot.
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07:34:18  * Smoovious blinks.
07:40:02  <peter1138> at what?
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08:00:16  <Smoovious> my eyes were getting dry
08:06:20  <peter1138> oic
08:12:10  <Smoovious> .grins,
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08:12:22  <Smoovious> crashin'... catch  ya  l8r
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10:06:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: maedhros * r9367 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp town_cmd.cpp):
10:06:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix (r9315): If a new house doesn't have a corresponding action 3, the
10:06:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: graphics for the substitute (original) house should be drawn instead.
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10:06:48  <GhostBear> Hi there! ^^
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11:36:39  <GhostBear> =\
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11:41:27  <GhostBear> ïãíû
11:41:41  <GhostBear> guys
11:41:51  <Progman> guy
11:41:54  <GhostBear> is there any addons with new industries? :>
11:42:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9368 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (4 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: store _new_vehicle_id directly after successful handling the command in a per-AI-player-safe piece of memory, so we can restore the value when ever we want later in the process
11:43:12  <Rubidium> GhostBear: not yet
11:45:07  <GhostBear> mh
11:45:20  <GhostBear> any ideas for new industries? :o
11:46:02  <Rubidium> what I meant to say, newindustries is not yet supported
11:46:18  <GhostBear> mh...
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11:55:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9369 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (7 files): [NoAI] -Codechange: make some IsValidXXX() function static, so they can be used by the other classes without the need for an instance.
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12:08:17  * GhostBear feel empty inside :(
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12:10:06  <Rubidium> GhostBear: then go eat lunch or whatever is appropriate in your timezone.
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12:28:01  <Ailure> mmm
12:28:33  <Maedhros> anyone interested in a variable snowline patch? :)
12:28:35  <Maedhros>
12:30:27  <peter1138> no!
12:30:42  <peter1138> is it ttdp compatible? ;p
12:30:56  <Maedhros> yes :p
12:31:12  <Maedhros> you can try it out with this:
12:31:33  <Rubidium> Maedhros: isn't that a rethorical question because you have implemented it and therefor you are interested.
12:31:49  <Maedhros> hehe, true
12:32:54  <Rubidium> is snow actually removed when the snowline changes?
12:33:50  <Maedhros> yes
12:34:01  <Maedhros> (what would it do otherwise? :p)
12:34:36  <Rubidium> well, changing the snowline in-game didn't (at some point in history) remove the snow once it was fallen
12:35:34  <Maedhros> the only thing i've noticed is that snow covered arctic houses are actually different house types
12:35:53  <Maedhros> so if one gets built and then the snowline changes around it, the house won't change
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12:37:10  <Rubidium> that's true
12:37:46  <Rubidium> Maedhros: did you forget to add landscape.h?
12:39:14  <Maedhros> umm, yes. oops
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12:41:51  <Maedhros> (uploaded again)
12:44:16  <Rubidium> looks nice ;)
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12:52:20  <Maedhros> hmm, what about the industries that can only be placed above the snowline?
12:52:43  <Maedhros> should that be the variable snowline or the one set in the generating world window?
12:52:51  <Rubidium> only allow them in areas that are always snowed
12:53:07  <Maedhros> hmm, tricky
12:54:45  <GhostBear> I'm always thinked about adding sanatoriums, and you should move passangers to and from it :>
12:54:49  <GhostBear> Like Oil Rig :P
12:55:47  <GhostBear> And this also can be ski resorts in snow area :P
12:56:35  <boekabart_> Question. How bad is a 'zig zag' (45 deg left, 45 deg right) for train speed with real. accel enabled?
12:56:52  <peter1138> unnoticable
12:57:04  <boekabart_> so it's not 'faster' to insert an extra piece of straight track between?
12:57:11  <peter1138> no
12:57:16  <boekabart_> k, thanks
12:57:36  <boekabart_> but 2x 45 deg right within 1 train length is bad, right?
12:58:27  <peter1138> something like that
13:01:14  <GhostBear> boekabart_, make an experiment :>
13:01:43  <boekabart_> this is so much faster
13:01:53  <boekabart_> plus, isn't that why this channel exists?
13:04:54  <GhostBear> maybe, but i'm not sure what somebody knows :P
13:04:57  <GhostBear> I will test now ^^
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13:09:06  <GhostBear> If i correctly understended what you want to know then: zig zag greatly slows train
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13:11:25  <rane> any guides how you should build station's exit when there's a lot of traffic?
13:11:55  <boekabart_> GhostBear: I'm certain peter1138 is 'senior' enough to 'not talk shit' :)
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13:13:28  <Ailure> ohh
13:13:52  <Ailure> I like the idea of variable snow
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13:14:25  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9370 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_transactionmode.hpp: [NoAI] -Add: added a template to allow instances as param via SQ
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13:21:03  * Belugas wonders if it would be good to rename the LT_* stuff to something more evocative then then LT_HILLY or LT_CANDY...
13:21:22  <Belugas> LT_ARTIC, LT_TOYLAND or something
13:21:37  <Belugas> LT_TROPIC..
13:22:26  <Belugas> LT_TEMPERATE...
13:23:12  <peter1138> hehe
13:23:32  <peter1138> Belugas: CT_CANDY == CT_GOODS
13:23:46  <Belugas> :(
13:23:48  <peter1138> but yeah, i agree
13:23:51  <peter1138> LT_CANDY is dumb
13:23:55  <Belugas> fick fack f*cj
13:24:16  <peter1138> i'm wondering how to remove all those CT_ things anyway
13:24:35  <peter1138> so it would be cargo labels instead
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13:26:30  <peter1138> easy for some bits
13:26:33  <peter1138> not so easy for all the tables
13:26:53  <peter1138> not least because GetCargoIDByLabel() is, comparitively, slow
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13:28:02  <Maedhros> right, now forests can only be planted above the maximum snowline :)
13:28:03  <Maedhros>
13:28:29  <Maedhros> houses still use _opt.snow_line so that they're all the same no matter what time of year they were built
13:28:45  <Maedhros> so if you want them to look sensible you'll need some newhouses magic :)
13:29:28  <Belugas> nice going Rubidium :)
13:29:44  <Belugas> damdn
13:29:51  <Belugas> nice going Maedhros :)
13:29:54  <Belugas> pfff....
13:29:57  <Maedhros> hehe, thanks Belugas
13:30:01  * Belugas runs for cooffee
13:30:32  <Belugas> Maedhros, maybe you should talk to richk67, he did some stuff on snowline
13:30:51  <Belugas> peter1138, CT_CANDY and CT_GOODS are indeed the same,
13:31:02  <Belugas> but doing so just makes it clear what is done
13:31:22  <Belugas> and therefore, if eevr *someone* decides to get rid of CT_ stuff,
13:31:28  <Belugas> that would be less a bug ;)
13:31:59  <Belugas> and yeah, cargo label all the way is not going to be an easy task
13:37:00  <Belugas> [09:28] <Maedhros> so if you want them to look sensible you'll need some newhouses magic :)  <----  or sprite tables mangling?
13:37:24  <Belugas> after all, it's not really nothng more than sprites that change
13:37:32  <Belugas> depending of the snow line
13:37:34  <Belugas> i think
13:38:32  <peter1138> Belugas: yeah, i know
13:39:27  <Maedhros> yes, i suppose i could try and mangle the sprite table...
13:39:46  <Maedhros> but i think i'll attempt it later :)
13:40:23  <peter1138> urgh
13:40:41  <peter1138> vbv :/
13:40:49  <peter1138> wanky bollocks :p
13:41:43  <Belugas> one thing that could help, is that the house sprite table would be a little more... readable
13:41:48  <Belugas> HUGE TASK
13:41:53  <peter1138> look
13:41:55  <peter1138> we have new houses
13:41:58  <peter1138> it's cool!
13:42:01  <Belugas> :D
13:42:09  <Belugas> hip hip hip hurray!
13:42:20  * peter1138 remembers starting newstations and thinking it was fairly unlikely to happen
13:42:26  <TrueBrain> who's birthday is it?
13:42:33  <Belugas> "It's about time"
13:42:46  <Belugas> Birth of NewHouses
13:42:51  <TrueBrain> CAKE!
13:43:00  <Belugas> CT_CAKE
13:43:00  <XeryusTC> <TrueBrain> who's birthday is it? <- my mother's
13:43:20  <peter1138> BEEEEEEF CAAAAAAAAAKE
13:43:32  <TrueBrain> concratz XeryusTC
13:43:36  <Belugas> CT_BEEF | CT_CAKE
13:44:00  <XeryusTC> ty TrueBrain
13:44:08  <peter1138> :D
13:44:16  <peter1138> multiple cargo types
13:44:19  <peter1138> hmm
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13:47:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: maedhros * r9371 /trunk/src/ (13 files):
13:47:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Feature: Add support for variable snow lines in the arctic climate, supplied
13:47:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: by newgrf files. When this is enabled forests cannot be built below the highest
13:47:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: snow line, and farms can't be built above it. Houses still use the
13:47:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: _opt.snow_line so they are all consistent, so to make them respect the snowline
13:47:04  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: you may want to use some newhouses features as well.
13:47:15  <Belugas> hello glx :)
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13:49:03  <rane> if trains are forced to go in depots with track placement are they serviced always?
13:49:40  <glx> yes
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13:55:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9372 /branches/noai/src/squirrel_helper.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: type in squirrel_helper caused 4 param functions to fail
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14:01:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9373 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp variables.h): -Fix (r9271): the chosen language was not stored nor read properly in/from the cfg.
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14:08:45  <Belugas> Maedhros, peter1138 :  here is how far i could have gone, work@work claims a lot on my time right now.  If ever you have some hints, pointers, solution, it would be welcome
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14:27:37  <Belugas> bloody bleeding nose... no, my job is NOT stressfull :S
14:27:58  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9374 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: functionality to modify orders.
14:30:54  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9375 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (ai_squirrel.cpp api/ai_order.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix r9374: make AIOrder() work for SQ (enums not yet)
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14:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> <Maedhros> hmm, what about the industries that can only be placed above the snowline? <- IIRC, the alpine climate grf said something about farms which get above snowline stop production
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14:57:36  <welterde> hi
15:00:11  <varzamurata> hi
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15:10:33  <Thomas[NL]> Maybe someone here knows: I downloaded some station GRF, when I try to build a station some items in the list of stations are greyed out. how come?
15:12:03  <Thomas[NL]> example: all items in the 'City Station' list are greyed out.
15:12:05  <hylje> station not available yet afaik
15:13:48  <Thomas[NL]> hmm, i played with this set before and can't remember it not being available (same start-date)
15:13:55  <Thomas[NL]> I'll take a look at it
15:14:52  <Thomas[NL]> you're right :) ty
15:16:35  <hylje> np
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15:54:46  <Maedhros> Eddi|zuHause3: yes, that's done with newindustries
15:55:22  <Thomas[NL]> Are you aware of the moustache glitch in the dace-selection window?
15:58:09  <Rubidium> under what circumstances?
15:59:40  <Thomas[NL]> when cycling faces it sometimes happens
15:59:54  <Thomas[NL]> IŽll upload a screenshot
15:59:57  <peter1138> what sometimes happens?
16:00:41  <Thomas[NL]>
16:00:42  <Thomas[NL]> that
16:01:25  <Thomas[NL]> Revision: 9375
16:01:40  <Thomas[NL]> but it happened also before
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16:03:11  <joachim> train skipping destinations - feature or bug?
16:04:02  <Rubidium> depends on the situation I guess
16:05:06  <joachim> they skip both stations and waypoints.. refuse to accept them as next destination, although they are perfectly reacheble and other trains have the same orders
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16:10:44  <Rubidium> Thomas[NL]: can you give me a savegame with that face?
16:11:19  <Rubidium> joachim: can you give me a savegame too?
16:11:51  <Ailure> [17:00] <Thomas[NL]>
16:11:52  <Ailure> omg
16:11:59  <Ailure> That moustache looks evil
16:12:00  <Ailure> xD
16:12:13  <Rubidium> though it actually isn't a moustache
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16:12:44  <Ailure> still
16:12:53  <Ailure> he looks like a typical "Devil guy"
16:13:03  <Thomas[NL]> Transport, 11th Jan 1920.sav , just made it
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16:13:41  <Thomas[NL]> Revision: 9375
16:14:00  <Thomas[NL]> hmm, should I do one without any grf's?
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16:16:26  <Rubidium> nah, it works with the grfs too
16:17:12  <Thomas[NL]> k
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16:23:19  <Thomas[NL]> can't anybody else reproduce this bug? (moustache)
16:24:00  <Rubidium> it happens when I open the savegame, but I don't have any reason for it yet
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16:32:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9376 /trunk/src/player_face.h: -Fix (r8969): off-by-one error for the amount of mouth pieces for men.
16:33:30  <Thomas[NL]> didn't fix it Oo
16:33:44  <Thomas[NL]> wait
16:33:49  <Rubidium> Thomas[NL]: now it isn't possible to get that strange moustache thingy anymore, but to remove the strangeness from the savegame you have to make a new face, i.e. it doesn't fix the savegame.
16:34:28  <Thomas[NL]> you're right, didn't compile it
16:35:51  <Thomas[NL]> ehm, openttd crashed:src/player_face.h:102: void SetPlayerFaceBits(PlayerFace&, PlayerFaceVariable, GenderEthnicity, uint): Assertion `val < _pf_info[pfv].valid_values[ge]' failed.Aborted (core dumped)
16:36:32  <Rubidium> hmm, that shouldn't happen
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16:43:22  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9377 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Fix (r9376): the off-by-one error was also present at another location :(
16:43:35  <Rubidium> now I hope it is fixed properly :)
16:44:07  <peter1138> proper job!
16:44:37  <Thomas[NL]> thumbs up
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18:05:33  <Thomas[NL]> what does Autoreplace all vehicles in the depot do?
18:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> normally, autoreplace only affects vehicles when they enter the depot
18:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> but this button applies all current replacement rules to all vehicles that are currently in the depot
18:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> (i.e. that's useful if you (temporarily) changed the rules after the vehicles entered)
18:07:37  <Thomas[NL]> ok ty
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18:14:52  <Wolf01> hello
18:18:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> ah, Wolf01, i wannted to tell a concern about the daylength patch... i don't think multiplying the running costs by the daylength is the way to go, the running costs are per year, and they were chosen with some kind of realism in mind, so they should stay the same for the year (instead, maybe income should be divided by daylength)
18:18:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> also, the ratio between purchase costs and running costs gets totally wrong
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18:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's pretty stupid if i get to choose between a steam engine, that costs 500k, or a electric engine that costs 1.5M, when that 1M difference equals out by 1 year of running costs
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18:22:29  <Wolf01> you should also think about total income
18:23:09  <Wolf01> if a train in a year can earn 10000, but i use daylength set to 32x, the train income is 320000
18:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's why i said, divide income
18:23:30  <Wolf01> if i don't multiply the running costs, you cheat
18:23:52  <Wolf01> if i divide the income you won't be able to purchase things
18:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, you will, you just have to wait a year
18:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> like you did before
18:24:49  <Wolf01> but this time a year is 6 hours
18:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes.
18:25:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's the point of daylength ;)
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18:25:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> but the way it is now, it practically eliminates any purchase costs
18:26:50  <Wolf01> i also tried to not multiply the industries production, but i got one train leaving the station after 2 hours
18:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> the production is fine ;)
18:27:18  <Wolf01> maybe i can add another setting: use realistic times
18:27:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> you need to fill the trains somehow
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18:28:49  <Wolf01> but daylength has to be totally rewritten and i won't do it alone, so if somebody wants to help i'll do it
18:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd say it would be best if you talked to celestar, he might incorporate such things in the rebalancing process
18:30:24  <Wolf01> i already talked with him, he said "maybe"
18:33:54  <mikk36> how much is the optimal transported percentage for a first-level factory ?
18:33:59  <mikk36> for growth ?
18:34:18  <hylje> 65-75
18:35:20  <mikk36> and it's random which factories will grow and which not ?
18:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> everything is "random", nothing is random...
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18:41:31  <Smoovious> shouldn't daylength just change the length of time it takes for the day to elapse? why  should yearly income/costs//production change? like... you should have to account for a train taing 4 days  to make the  trip instead of 8,  so it gets half  the income instead of double, so at the end of the year, it b alances  out,  but otherwise, at the end of the game-year, it should balance out
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18:51:12  <Wolf01> since there are 2 kinds of preferences:
18:51:12  <Wolf01> 1) play more time with the same "speed", for example "i don't have time to upgrade from rail to monorail because when i finish to do it there is already the maglev available"
18:51:12  <Wolf01> 2) slow-mo game, the game is exactly the same, but all is "stretched" to make you able to play a game for more time, for example "i started a train, it entered a station, i got dinner and the train has already left the station! how is possible this?"
18:51:40  <Wolf01> i think i'll will think to add 2 values for "daylength affect economy" which now is a bool
18:54:56  <Smoovious> well... not exactly sure which side this falls on... but i'm good with the speeds of the  vehicles and e verything else... i just want the days  to tick over slower...
18:55:37  <Smoovious> (pardon all the bad sppacing and keybouncing... I had to exchange keyboards last night,  and am on a very old baackup keyboard now)
18:55:52  <Wolf01> that is the point of the option number 1
18:56:13  <Smoovious> ok
18:57:02  <Zuu> TrueBrain: Am I right if I think that DistanceSquare should return the distance in the unit "tiles"?
18:58:31  <Zuu> The result seam to be something totaly different (much larger), and more interesting two towns close other report significant longer distance than two other that are longer apart from each other.
18:59:07  <Rubidium> because it is the square of the distance
18:59:08  <Zuu> s/close other/close to eachother/g
18:59:29  <Rubidium> think of Pythagoras a^2 + b^2 = c^2, what this function returns is c^2, not c
18:59:36  <Zuu> Okay
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19:01:31  <Morphy> anyone around?
19:01:42  <Morphy> I need help installing 0.5 on linux (ubuntu)
19:02:03  <Zuu> Hmm saw wrong on the town names, the distance between towns are probably right. :)
19:02:50  <Thomas[NL]> where are you stuck?
19:03:08  <Morphy> me?
19:03:14  <Thomas[NL]> yes
19:03:37  <Morphy> well, I dl'ed the .deb pkg, and installed it
19:03:43  <Morphy> and I've got the grf files etc
19:03:51  <Morphy> but im stuck on how to actually start it
19:03:53  <Morphy> hehe
19:03:57  <Thomas[NL]> I goto go: cd to map with original data files > sudo cp * /usr/games/openttd/data/
19:04:21  <Thomas[NL]> gl
19:04:28  <Morphy> done that
19:04:43  <Thomas[NL]> ALT F2 openttd?
19:05:20  <Morphy> wow
19:05:23  <Morphy> thanks
19:05:27  <Thomas[NL]> :)
19:05:29  <Morphy> works like charm now
19:05:38  <Thomas[NL]> I'm off bye
19:08:25  <Morphy> bye
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19:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> Smoovious: we say "the devil is in the detail", in this case, you have to carefully decide, which game elements should be on a "per tick" basis, and which should be on a "per day/month/year" basis
19:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> e.g. train movement should still be per tick
19:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> so they will travel further per day
19:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> also, industry should produce per tick, so they produce more per month
19:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> the question now is, if income should be based on "ticks traveled" or "days travelled"
19:21:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> in the first case, you will get the same money per real-time-hour
19:21:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> in the second case, you get the same per game-day
19:22:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i think the second would be more realistic
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19:23:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> the first approach would mean "slower technological advancement", the second would mean "slower game advancement"
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19:28:43  <Smoovious> they shouldn't produce more per month
19:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, because you would want to fill more than one wagon per hour
19:29:36  <Smoovious> very simply, what i would want out of a daylength patch, is to make t he length of the day, longer...
19:29:40  <Smoovious> no, i wouldn't
19:29:53  <Smoovious> let me clarify
19:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> and that's exactly what the discussion is about, everyone wants it to behave differently
19:30:43  <Smoovious> the speed it takes to fill cargo should be compensated for since the vehicles will still run at the same 'real-time' rate they are now... but the cargo being produced, shouldn't be....
19:31:30  <Smoovious> vehicles already run independent of everything else when it comes to time elapsing... no train takes 20 says to travel to the next city
19:31:34  <Smoovious> says=days
19:31:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> and current industry production is hardly realistic
19:32:10  <Smoovious> no, but if we double what the industry produces per year, to me, it pretty much defeats the purpose of lengthening the game-days
19:32:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> let's make an example:
19:32:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> daylength x32
19:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> you have a train going from a coal mine to a power station
19:33:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> that takes, e.g. 300tonnes of coal
19:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> now that train could realisticly go from the mine to the station in 1 day
19:34:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> but it takes the train 1 month to load, with the original production rates
19:34:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is by no means realistic
19:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> so you increase the industry production also by x32
19:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> so you can fill the train in one day
19:34:36  <Smoovious> yes, i know... that is pretty much what i just said as far as vehicles run independent
19:34:46  <Smoovious> no, you don't increase production...
19:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> the alternative would be to either let the train (unrealistically) load 1 month, and basically loose every value to the cargo while loading
19:35:40  <Smoovious> use shorter trains, use less road vehicles, etc, since they can makke more trips in the same amount of time, they can haul more cargo
19:35:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> or making the train (unrealistically) load only 10 tonnes
19:35:50  <Smoovious> lose what value?
19:35:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> both completely destroy gamepaly
19:36:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> delivery time: 1 month, distance: 1 day, how much value you expect to get for that delivery?
19:38:31  <Smoovious> with daylength set to x2... days last twice as long... so it would take the train half as long to make it to the destinatioin... which would  end up b ringing in more m oney
19:38:54  <Sacro|Laptop> daylength ^_^
19:38:55  <Smoovious> double up production, well, you're just going to have to keep running as m any trains as you are now...
19:38:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> i said x32
19:39:18  <Sacro|Laptop> daylength should affect loading times?
19:39:19  <Smoovious> ahem... note, in my example, _I_ said daylength set to x2
19:40:57  <Smoovious> Sacro|Laptop... the way i see the game, the moving stock moves at a completeley unrealistic rate anyways... but they try to keep them sorta relative to each other... for me, changing daylength would just increase or decrease that discrepancy... but static things like industries and cities, should stick with the rates that the daylength would imply
19:41:08  <Smoovious> you're just making time pass slower
19:41:11  <Sacro|Laptop> Smoovious: yeah...
19:41:22  <Sacro|Laptop> it all needs scaling
19:41:26  <Smoovious> yes
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19:43:01  <Smoovious> so with a daylength set to x2, which would imply days lasting twice as l ong as now... 1 train could make two complete runs in the amount of game-time it would take with daylength set to x1
19:43:28  <Smoovious> and if the factory isn't producing enough for the 2  complete runs, well, all that tells me is your trains are too long
19:44:15  <Smoovious> i  kinda see this as the same personal issue I have with 'low towns' and 'low industries', not really being what I would consider 'low'
19:44:31  <Zavior> For me, low is too low
19:44:33  <Zavior> ;|
19:44:52  <Patrick> this is the first time I've watched a build for over a year
19:44:56  <Patrick> since when was it c++ ?
19:44:57  <Zuu> TrueBrain: A function for transforming from X/Y coordinate to tile-index would be very neat. So one can look at an adjecent tile, which is good for any path-finding algorithm. :)
19:45:18  <hylje> Patrick: about thousand or two revisions ago
19:45:22  <Patrick> huh.
19:45:30  <Patrick> doesn't that make it compile 10 times slower, or something?
19:45:37  <Smoovious> Zavior... I likke things to be sparse... we got bigger maps now... more resolution over the whole area... if I set low, it should be just as low as a normal map, just lots more space b etween destinations... but then low is compensated for the map size... so it feels 'high' to me afterwards
19:45:54  <Zavior> o_O
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19:46:07  <Patrick> Zavior: I actually tried to write a patch for "very low" industry density
19:46:09  <Patrick> it didn't work :(
19:46:17  <Zavior> :|
19:46:19  <Smoovious> Patrick... compiling time really isnn't the important issue
19:46:33  <Patrick> I guess the code's a lot better now
19:46:42  <Patrick> making it all object-oriented, eh?
19:47:11  <hylje> no
19:47:12  <Smoovious> i'd love to be able t o ojust specify # of towns/industries... high/med/low is too subjective...
19:47:25  <hylje> you can have C in cpp files and call it c++
19:48:12  <Patrick> oh, yeah, of course
19:48:21  <Smoovious> Patrick... why didn't your 'very low' patch work/
19:48:43  <Patrick> it was more a case that there wasn't enough demand for it, and it needed a savegame version bump
19:48:49  <Patrick> for one tiny freakin' setting
19:49:12  <Patrick> and it meant changes to the map generator gui
19:49:27  <Patrick> anyway, why have it all compile as c++ if it's kept written in C
19:49:42  <Smoovious> it isn't all written in c... it is also w ritten in c++
19:49:53  <Rubidium> because now you can slowly start converting everything to C++
19:49:54  <Patrick> ok, yes, some parts like the new AI
19:50:06  <Patrick> ok, so it's not happened yet but it will do "at some point"
19:50:07  <Rubidium> but that is only done when rewrite of a particular piece of code is needed
19:50:33  <Smoovious> better off doing it gradually anyways... easier to bug-hunt
19:50:35  <Rubidium> it is still happening, but it is a slow progress and I doubt OpenTTD will become pure C++.
19:50:39  <Patrick> aye
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19:51:13  <Patrick> it'd be nice to have all the gui stuff in c++, so much easier
19:51:25  <Smoovious> code it up!
19:52:35  <Belugas> or look into cpp_gui branch...
19:52:49  <peter1138> Patrick, was that the sound of a volunteer? ;-)
19:53:08  <Smoovious> peter1138; sounded like it to me. ;)
19:53:10  *** setrodox__ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:53:58  * peter1138 goes back to playing his ukrs/ttrs/newcargo/millionandonestation game
19:54:06  <Patrick> uuh ... "readme.txt" makes no mention of linux build instructions
19:54:14  <Patrick> I have a bunch of null outputs
19:54:27  <Patrick> I'm sure I'll muddle through eventually
19:55:03  <Patrick> it's been such a long time since I did all this
19:55:11  <Rubidium> peter1138: still no ukrsi?
19:55:17  <Smoovious> tell me about it
19:56:08  <Rubidium> Patrick: linux is usually seen as some unix
19:56:12  <Patrick> I'll pull apart the ebuild and get the packages I need
19:56:21  <Patrick> I'm sure there's some SDL-dev stuff I should have
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19:57:30  <peter1138> Rubidium: yes, ukrsi, but i'm not doing anything with industries, heh
19:58:40  <Smoovious> peter1138... is it a network game/
19:59:39  <Patrick> here's a thought, what about a limit on the maximum area of a map, rather than the maximum size
19:59:57  <Patrick> I want a 512x8192 :(
20:00:38  <peter1138> Smoovious, no
20:00:47  <Smoovious> i want a  32768x32768 map... with 4 cities... and road vehicles only. :D
20:00:51  <Smoovious> peter1138 >pout<
20:01:12  <hylje> realistic dimensions TTD
20:01:35  <Smoovious> have the road vehicles grow old and turn to rust before they finish their first leg
20:02:14  <hylje> its like the penn and teller game
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20:11:20  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9378 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp: -Fix [FS#688] (r9038): cancel in password queries reduces amount of players in the network game when they haven't joined the game yet.
20:12:14  <Smoovious> yeah, i c ould see where that wouldn't be good
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20:13:53  <Patrick> hylje: hehehe
20:14:16  <Patrick> I did that, sent the slowest vehicle on a round trip on a 2048
20:14:26  <hylje> Rubidium: does this fix the 255 client bug?
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20:14:28  <Patrick> it was red with age when it came back
20:15:14  <Rubidium> it should
20:18:10  <GhostBear> ïãíû
20:18:12  <GhostBear> guys
20:18:18  <GhostBear> why there is not music in game?
20:18:26  <GhostBear> I mean where original music gone? :o
20:18:36  <GhostBear> Or why it not playing? :[
20:19:09  <Rubidium> 1: do you have copied them from the original CD (the .gm files to the gm directory)
20:19:24  <Rubidium> 2: are you running unix/linux and do you have timidity installed?
20:19:46  <Rubidium> Zuu:
20:19:50  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9379 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_map.cpp ai_map.hpp): [NoAI] -Add: function to get the TileIndex from an (X, Y) coordinate.
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20:20:30  <GhostBear> well
20:20:48  <GhostBear> i know only that what in tycoon i copied there surely was all the music
20:21:07  <GhostBear> timidity? o-O
20:21:08  <Smoovious> 3: do you have the music turned off in the music menu/
20:21:33  <GhostBear> @3 =\
20:22:14  <GhostBear> no i do not =\
20:23:06  <Rubidium> GhostBear: under linux/unix you need timidity to play the midi files from
20:23:07  <Rubidium> TTD
20:23:58  <Thomas[NL]> if using linux: bottom of the page
20:24:02  <GhostBear> i have windows
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20:25:20  <Thomas[NL]> do you have a gm directory in you openttd-folder?
20:26:23  <Desolator> Is there any way to increase the look ahead (for depots) length in YAPF? I have a line that's way longer than the YAPF default, and my trains won't service automatly
20:27:08  <Rubidium> I don't think you want that
20:27:15  <KUDr> it is hardcoded in the train controller logic
20:27:33  <KUDr> build them closer :)
20:27:36  <Zuu> Rubidium: Thanks :D
20:27:42  <Rubidium> because it goes to any depot in that area, so it even could go to a branch from where it can't come back to your mainline
20:28:11  <Thomas[NL]> what is the maximum? 16 Tiles (+ penalties etc.) ?
20:28:26  <KUDr> yes
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20:28:46  <Desolator> KUDr: Yeah, but here I made a very nice & flexible setup
20:29:07  <Desolator> Rubidium: I always make lines accesible from all directions ;)
20:29:10  <KUDr> Desolator: then modify source and recompile
20:29:48  <GhostBear> <Thomas[NL]> do you have a gm directory in you openttd-folder? <- no
20:30:05  <Desolator> I got no C++ knowledge. Maybe you could implement an option, changeable only from the cfg?
20:30:34  <GhostBear> I hsould copy to ../openttd/gm/<HERE> ???
20:30:40  <Thomas[NL]> GhostBear: you should have with the original *.gm files inside it
20:30:41  <KUDr> i could but it makes no sense to do it for just one user
20:31:09  <KUDr> imagine 500k+ users and each one with his own option
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20:31:57  <Desolator> well, this would allow everyone to make complex depot setups
20:32:08  <GhostBear> *.gm? O_O
20:32:19  <GhostBear> I have no any .gm in tycoon folder
20:32:21  <glx> GhostBear: it seems you have original TTD for DOS files
20:32:22  <Thomas[NL]> GhostBear:
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20:32:27  <KUDr> each option woul allow everyone to do something different :)
20:32:35  <GhostBear> but music in original tycoon are exists(playing)
20:32:43  <Thomas[NL]> use the gm folder from inside that .zip
20:32:50  <glx> OTTD don't know how to read
20:33:14  <GhostBear> ok
20:33:15  <GhostBear> thx
20:33:37  <Thomas[NL]> ps what are those .fm files?
20:34:08  <glx> music files too
20:34:29  <Thomas[NL]> what's the difference?
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20:35:12  <glx> they are for different midi cards but most midi player can play both
20:35:20  <Thomas[NL]> alreadt found it :) (There are also versions recorded on an FM synthesis sound card and versions recorded with top-end MIDI equipment, creating a high-quality sound.)
20:36:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9380 /branches/0.5/network.c:
20:36:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r9378):
20:36:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: cancel in password queries reduces amount of players in the network game when they haven't joined the game yet (r9378)
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20:41:00  <Thomas[NL]> where in the source is the directory <homedir>/.openttd for linux defined?
20:42:22  <Progman> its from the configure script
20:42:53  <Progman> ./configure prefix=x
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20:43:56  <Thomas[NL]> where x is?
20:45:55  <Progman> your choosen path
20:46:05  <Progman> check ./configure --help
20:47:45  <Thomas[NL]> hmm are you sure it's the same map I mean the map with openttd.cfg, save etc inside it
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20:48:15  <Thomas[NL]> so I should use --personal-dir=dir ?
20:50:11  <Smoovious> on the depot-finding... i'm kinda along with Desolator on it... I like having lead-in/lead-out tracks to my depots, and with long trains, that makes the depots too long to be found...
20:53:51  <Thomas[NL]> now I get Cannot install. Not compiled with installation paths
20:55:51  <Desolator> we have look ahead for signals, why not for depots?
20:56:28  <Rubidium> Thomas[NL]: for your savefile and configuration to be in ~/.openttd you do not have to install
20:56:49  <peter1138> we have look ahead for signals?
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20:57:39  <Wolf01> if i remember well, there is something like "prefer green-green instead of green-red"
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20:58:36  <Thomas[NL]> Rubidium: some guy on the forums wants a installed version of the nightly, but his data (/usr/share/games/openttd) and 'personal' (<homedir>/.openttd) have to change (don't they). And I'm trying to figure out how
20:58:52  <Thomas[NL]>
21:00:20  <Rubidium> ./configure --personal-dir=.openttd --enable-install --prefix=/usr --binary=<where you want your binary to be under /usr/>
21:01:24  <Thomas[NL]> ty
21:01:52  <peter1138> personally i just build it and run it where it is
21:02:26  <Thomas[NL]> me too but he seems to want an extra install
21:02:38  <Zuu> [noai] The third argument of road.BuildRoadStation is used wrongly by the function. If one send 'true' a truck station is built, and if one send 'false' a bus-station is built. The documentation says the opposite.
21:03:29  <Zuu> The fourth argument, also a boolean works as stated in the documentation.
21:03:49  <Thomas[NL]> Rubidium: Unknown option --prefix=/usr , predix-dir?
21:04:06  <Rubidium> I guess so
21:06:02  <Rubidium> Zuu: so true == builds a truck?
21:07:56  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9381 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_road.cpp ai_road.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: inconsistency between documentation and actual behaviour (Zuu).
21:08:09  <Zuu> Rubidium: Yes
21:08:32  <Thomas[NL]> Now I just get a bundle in tje source dir -.-, I give up
21:10:03  <Rubidium> Thomas[NL]: it should also install it into the proper directories
21:12:21  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9382 /branches/0.5/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [0.5] -Prepare 0.5 branch for release of 0.5.1-RC1.
21:13:23  <Zuu> I must say it is neat that you can just call this.Sleep(1) in the middle of your path-finder and then don't need to have it in a class which remember the state and only iterates a few steps each time. ... Yes this means that a Stop() will not be sean in time, but that can be done with some extra code... but not really necessary untill the specs of the new Stop-mechanism is there.
21:14:11  <Thomas[NL]> sigh: cp: cannot stat `/home/thomas/openttd/bin/openttd-nightly': No such file or directory   make: *** [bundle] Error 1
21:14:40  <Zuu> Yes it's lazy but lazy is nice sometimes :)
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21:20:05  <glx> Zuu: I think somethink is planed for that :)
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21:24:40  <Zuu> I found some strange behavor of the BuildRoadStation for a specific relation between station-tile and the adjacent tile that is used for rotation.
21:24:52  <Zuu> However I don't know which dirrection is named what.
21:25:20  <Zuu> So I can't specify which dirrection that don't work.
21:25:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9383 /tags/0.5.1-RC1/ (6 files): -Release 0.5.1-RC1.
21:29:06  <Zuu> Hmm.. looking on the wiki it seams that north is simply up on the screen., making N-E, N-W, S-E, S-W the main directions.
21:29:32  <Rubidium> yup
21:31:24  <Zuu> Then, if 'front' is S-E of 'tile' the bus-station is built in the oposite direction as it should.
21:31:47  <Zuu> All other cases work as they should.
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21:42:54  <Rubidium> Zuu: when I look at the results of the regression test and at what it should do, the stations seem to be build correctly
21:44:36  <Zuu> Rubidium: Okay, then I'll look more into my code.
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21:53:10  <XeryusTC> Zuu: you're making an AI too?
21:53:20  <XeryusTC> oh wait, you are :P
21:53:26  <Zuu> If it is not hard to do it would be very neat to be able to mark tiles with signs in debug-purpose. :)
21:53:34  <Zuu> XeryusTC: Yes I am, and you too :)
21:53:41  <XeryusTC> yes
21:53:47  <XeryusTC> im busy on some general api now though
21:54:09  <Zuu> I read you have developed some api too?
21:54:17  <XeryusTC> yes:
21:54:19  <XeryusTC> uhm
21:54:21  <XeryusTC> wrong one
21:54:24  <Zuu> :p
21:54:26  <XeryusTC>
21:54:50  <XeryusTC> there is no real use for it yet though
21:55:38  <XeryusTC> there might also be still some bugs in it as i just switched from std::list to std::map
21:57:23  <XeryusTC> there is also still a little design issue
21:57:30  <Zuu> I see you want to store a bunch of tiles in some way tough the API, so that C++-functions can be used to do fast searching though the list of tiles.
21:57:42  <XeryusTC> yes
21:57:58  <XeryusTC> you add some tiles to the list, apply some modifiers on it and your AI makes a decision based on it
21:58:49  <XeryusTC> my AI in openttd.gpmi used it, and it build stations in a town at the tiles that generated >x amount of passangers and all tiles were x tiles away from each other
21:58:51  <GhostBear> Is there any search between signs?
21:58:51  <Thomas[NL]> what stands API for?
21:59:21  <XeryusTC>
21:59:23  <Thomas[NL]> GhostBear: What do you mean?
21:59:46  <XeryusTC> anyway, i manipulated the list and build some stations on the tiles that remained in the list
21:59:47  <Thomas[NL]> ty
22:00:01  <Zuu> GhostBear: Try the Sign-List, don't know if you can sort it or not.
22:00:04  <GhostBear> I'm usually reserving good places for stations in towns and marking them with signs
22:00:15  <GhostBear> Now maps are bigger and i'm lost my signs
22:00:24  <GhostBear> Is there any search between signs?
22:01:37  <Smoovious> go through the map icon... hold down the b utton when selecting it, you'll see sign lilst on the b ottom
22:01:53  <GhostBear> ah
22:01:55  <GhostBear> thx! ^^
22:01:58  <Smoovious> np
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22:02:26  <XeryusTC> anyway, Zuu, does your AI build something yet?
22:03:14  <Zuu> XeryusTC: It finds two good towns to connect. Then it can place one bus-station in each city adjecent to the city roads.
22:03:30  <XeryusTC> heh
22:03:42  <XeryusTC> the TileList should also be able to find the roads
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22:03:58  <GhostBear> Mh, btw, is there difference where to place airport? inside of town or near it?
22:04:06  <GhostBear> I mean how it will be shown on number of passangers?
22:04:13  <Zuu> And it pay back it's loan and take a larger loan if neccessary. :)
22:04:21  <XeryusTC> heh
22:04:48  <XeryusTC> mine can only switch names, use some switch that has to be finished and test the tilelist :P
22:04:49  <Rubidium> Zuu: so no vehicle building yet?
22:04:49  <GhostBear> And not airports only - bus stations and train stations too?
22:05:22  <XeryusTC> oh, and loop a bit through the towns to find towns with a minimal size
22:05:46  <Zuu> Rubidium: Nope, I need to find the bug with placement of stations in S-E-direction and then I need to place a depot somewere, and lastly connect the cities before it is even time to think about busses.
22:05:48  <GhostBear> you talking about ai? :>
22:05:56  <GhostBear> Everybody developering own ai? :D
22:06:12  <Zuu> GhostBear: Yes I'm talking about AI.
22:06:42  <GhostBear> mh...
22:06:48  <GhostBear> Maybe connect towns first?
22:07:02  <GhostBear> and depots in middle of road is nice too
22:07:14  <Smoovious> i'm close to thinking about AI... i'm watching I Robot
22:07:36  *** skidd13 [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
22:07:37  <GhostBear> How you developering AIs?
22:07:46  <GhostBear> Writing code and how you implenting it into game?
22:08:04  <Thomas[NL]> read this
22:08:10  <XeryusTC> there is a NoAI branch
22:08:14  * GhostBear <- this person do not know how it all works in openttd
22:08:15  <Zuu> I was thinking about creating a function that get a tile which have road on it as input and then scan tough the road-network for closest possible place for a depot, and then simply place depots close to the bus-stations.
22:08:25  *** green-devil [] has quit []
22:09:02  <Zuu> That is how it finds out where to place the road-stations in the city.
22:09:16  <Thomas[NL]> don't you have any insight how the old AI  works?
22:09:24  <Zuu> As the only world-information available yet is if a tile have a road on it or not :D
22:09:26  <XeryusTC> the old AI sucks
22:09:33  <Rubidium> Thomas[NL]: you really do not want to know the old AI
22:09:38  <XeryusTC> Zuu: lol, that is where tilelist comes into play
22:09:43  <Thomas[NL]> ^^
22:10:35  <Thomas[NL]> Are you using this squirrel or c++?
22:10:44  <GhostBear> old ai sucks and cheat and stupid =\
22:10:46  <XeryusTC> make a list of the town, order it according to cargo acceptance (lowest first) on empty tiles and build a depot on it
22:10:53  <Zuu> Thomas[NL]: i have read the code of the old AI, but I have not understood it :p
22:10:53  <XeryusTC> Thomas[NL]: C++
22:11:10  <XeryusTC> Zuu: that was how my old AI did it :)
22:11:41  <Zuu> XeryusTC: Okay.
22:11:51  <Zuu> Thomas[NL]: I'm using squirrel
22:11:55  <XeryusTC> my AI was quite stupid though, it could only remember that it had to build vehicles and depots for a specific town
22:12:04  <XeryusTC> so it just created a tilelist over and over again :P
22:12:10  <Thomas[NL]> Will a newbie programmer like me be able to do anything (just for learning a bit more about c / c++)
22:12:11  <SpComb> is OpenTTD squirrel-powered these days?
22:12:25  <XeryusTC> SpComb: for AI, yes
22:12:30  <XeryusTC> check the NoAI branch
22:12:33  <SpComb> cool
22:12:36  <SpComb> squirrels are smart
22:13:15  <XeryusTC> :D
22:13:30  <Rubidium> Thomas[NL]: yes
22:14:05  <Thomas[NL]> hmm, ok I'll give it a look tomorrow :)
22:14:13  <GhostBear> o_O
22:14:20  <GhostBear> nice... @wiki:ai
22:15:27  <GhostBear> "Your First AI" <- lol! Sounds like: "World creation for dummies! For 7 days or less"
22:15:40  <XeryusTC> heh
22:15:47  <XeryusTC> let you AI say "Hello World!"
22:16:11  <ln->
22:16:15  <GhostBear> flood the chat? :D
22:16:18  <Thomas[NL]> let's make him a sign with "Hello World!" :P
22:16:28  <Zuu> XeryusTC: To use your TileList, you in first place need more information about the world than which tile is road and not. :p But I see your idea is quite clever.
22:16:29  <GhostBear> Flood the map?
22:16:29  <XeryusTC> mine actually has a really nice thing to say when it gets stopped: "Ippen shinde miru?" which means something like "Why don't you die for once?"
22:17:14  <XeryusTC> Zuu: it is not my idea, it was already implemented in openttd.gpmi, but the tilelist will get functions which fill in information in it so you can do filtering/sorting etc
22:17:36  <peter1138> nini
22:17:38  <Zuu> XeryusTC: That's nice. :)
22:17:44  <GhostBear> I had some experience with AIs in other games but few experience with writing on c++ and absolutely do not know what is Squirell O_o
22:18:09  <XeryusTC> squirrel is like C++
22:18:21  <Zuu> GhostBear: I had not heard of squirriel untill a few days ago. :)
22:18:43  <GhostBear> I'm still not understanding what is it?
22:18:46  <GhostBear> Another language?
22:18:56  <glx> at least with squirrel you don't need to recompile openttd after each small changes :)
22:18:57  <GhostBear> Or just openttd c++ stylr languagge?
22:19:04  <GhostBear> *style
22:19:06  <GhostBear> *-g
22:19:28  <Zuu> GhostBear:
22:19:46  <Zuu> Or just if you want to look at the main-page of the language.
22:19:50  <XeryusTC> glx: recompiling isnt really the problem imo, restarting OTTD is
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22:20:05  <XeryusTC> <- that one is really hard to find with google :P
22:20:21  <GhostBear> hehe
22:20:29  <Zuu> XeryusTC: not so, just "squirriel" and "programming" :)
22:20:55  <Zuu> But just searching for "squirrel" and you are lost :p
22:21:35  <Zuu> hmm.. sorry for typo.. :p
22:21:44  <XeryusTC> i looked for lib squirrel IIRC
22:22:27  <XeryusTC> and 5 other keyword configurations
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22:24:33  <GhostBear> well
22:24:43  <GhostBear> squirell looks like c++ :P
22:26:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> most languages look very alike
22:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's the little things that make the difference
22:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> <GhostBear> Mh, btw, is there difference where to place airport? inside of town or near it? <- when you place a station, you can switch on "catchment area", the more houses are in there, the more passengers you get
22:27:45  <Zuu> Saidly the online documentation of squirell is not that impressive when it comes to details. (compared with PHP or Ruby for example)
22:28:26  <XeryusTC> the more houses are in there, the more passengers you get <- not entirely true, 10 buildings with 8/8 pax will get you more than 20 1/8 pax buildings
22:29:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, bigger houses also make more passengers
22:29:24  <GhostBear> Eddi|zuHause3, well i expected this
22:29:25  <GhostBear> thx
22:29:26  <Thomas[NL]> what't the branch address for NoAI
22:29:48  <Smoovious> branches/noai?
22:29:51  <GhostBear> you can check out how many passangers building provied by looking at buliding info :P
22:29:55  <Zuu>  svn://
22:30:08  <GhostBear> So i'm usually reserving places for airport at start of game ^^
22:30:13  <GhostBear> And that was right :P
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22:30:48  <GhostBear> Well, it says: create a new directory in bin/ai (for example MyNewAI).
22:30:55  <Smoovious> welll... some  servers don't alllow extended reseerving of land...
22:31:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> GhostBear: other alternative is building the airport outside of the city, where it hardly accepts passengers and mail, and then use busses from the city with "transfer and unload" orders
22:31:03  <GhostBear> Where this bin should be in
22:31:06  <Thomas[NL]> -.- I used  svn:// branch instead of branches
22:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> use the planes with normal orders
22:31:41  <GhostBear> yes
22:31:51  <GhostBear> i too using this trick
22:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> this is probably more effective
22:32:09  <Zuu> GhostBear: If you get the svn-version there is a bin-directory inside the noai-directory.
22:32:10  <GhostBear> but i'm reserving 6x6 place at biggest towns at start of game
22:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> as you can cover an unlimited area with the busses
22:32:31  <GhostBear> And when big airports and Dart Plane are appears i'm building them and getting lots of $$$ :P
22:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> but the largest airport is like 9x13
22:32:51  <GhostBear> is i t useful?
22:33:01  <GhostBear> I'm do not think it can be used on 512x512 map :P
22:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> i never used it, i cannot tell
22:33:19  <GhostBear> svn-version?
22:33:21  <Thomas[NL]> how do you name you AI's?
22:33:23  <GhostBear> (@Zuu)
22:33:29  <Rubidium> Thomas[NL]: see the wiki
22:33:34  <Zuu> GhostBear: If you use Windows, just wait for the binaries.
22:33:34  <Rubidium> or the API documentation
22:33:36  <Zuu>
22:33:41  <GhostBear> welll
22:33:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> but it certainly handles more planes than the smaller airports
22:33:51  <GhostBear> This means what no developering till those binaries? :P
22:33:52  <Thomas[NL]> I mean what name did you guys gave them :P
22:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> i hardly ever use planes
22:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm more of a train guy ;)
22:35:56  <GhostBear> :)
22:36:00  <Zuu> Thomas[NL]: I just named my AI "Zuu AI" but that is a subject for change when it becomes better I'll give it a stand-alone name :)
22:36:12  <GhostBear> Me too :P But airplanes is useful too :P
22:36:35  <GhostBear> And... When those "binaries" will comes out? :o
22:36:37  <XeryusTC> Thomas[NL]: mine is named Enma AI, after my favorite anime character Enma Ai
22:36:47  <Thomas[NL]> :)
22:36:51  <GhostBear> :)
22:37:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, i should start a zeppelin service right now...
22:37:22  <XeryusTC> it actually changes it name to other characters from the anime when it fails to call itself Enma Ai :)
22:37:23  <Zuu> GhostBear: Just wait and relax, they come when they are ready.
22:38:20  <Zuu> However, my AI call the company "LT Transportation" :)
22:38:21  <GhostBear> nice...
22:38:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> 1. Functionality
22:38:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> 2. Stability
22:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> 3. Compatibility
22:38:49  <GhostBear> zeppelin service <- @_@
22:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> after that, you can expect binaries
22:39:41  <GhostBear> zeppelin service is helicopters type?
22:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> the noai branch appears to be in phase 1.
22:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, zeppelins are helicopters, game wise
22:39:59  <XeryusTC> <Zuu> However, my AI call the company "LT Transportation" :) <- what does it do when the name is already taken?
22:40:26  <GhostBear> "Love Trains Transportation"?
22:40:48  <GhostBear> "'Link Those' Transportation"?
22:43:10  * GhostBear dreams to play online ^^
22:43:14  <Zuu> XeryusTC: It just appends a number as the wiki-example. :)
22:43:39  <Zuu> But some time I think I'll add an array of names or something like that :)
22:43:44  <GhostBear> listens >X-ecutioners - Style feat Black Thought<
22:44:02  <Wolf01> 'night
22:44:04  *** Wolf01 [] has quit []
22:44:17  <XeryusTC> Zuu: i currently have an array of names :P
22:44:19  <GhostBear> Where can i check out functions which returns slope type or something? :>
22:44:32  <GhostBear> btw
22:44:36  <XeryusTC> for AI?
22:44:40  <GhostBear> ye
22:44:46  <XeryusTC> there arent those yet
22:44:50  <GhostBear> @_@
22:44:52  <XeryusTC>
22:44:58  <GhostBear> How to develop then? :o
22:45:20  <GhostBear> Is anybody asked to add for avatar support in online games? :O
22:45:24  <XeryusTC> grab a copy of the source
22:45:31  <GhostBear> Those starndart generated faces fux :S
22:45:33  <XeryusTC> and look around a bit in the other api files
22:45:46  <XeryusTC> and write your own api with all the other functions OTTD provides
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22:46:33  <Zuu> GhostBear: You can do quite alot with the API that exist today.
22:46:48  <GhostBear> Nice
22:47:11  <GhostBear> Would be better if i know how to use api :I
22:47:21  <GhostBear> or even what is it correctly ^^
22:47:38  <GhostBear> I have bit understanding but not enough for good developering
22:48:22  <Thomas[NL]> same here :P
22:49:34  <XeryusTC> GhostBear: API is just an interface to talk with OTTD
22:49:34  * GhostBear <- this person is really interested in trying of developering ai ^^ But some things in my life i'm afraid will not allow me :(
22:49:39  <GhostBear> ah
22:49:43  <GhostBear> mkay
22:50:06  <XeryusTC> you still need to do loads of logic yourself though :P
22:50:09  <GhostBear> understood now
22:50:15  <GhostBear> I know
22:50:27  <GhostBear> I have experience in developering AIs
22:50:31  <XeryusTC> ok
22:50:48  <Zuu> With todays API it should be possible to build up two road-stations, a depot and creating vehicles that travle between them. But just that is quite a lot of code.
22:50:55  * XeryusTC only has experience with Leviathan AI, the AI I coded for OTTD.gpmi
22:51:02  <GhostBear>
22:51:05  <GhostBear> check this out :P
22:51:10  <XeryusTC> Zuu: we dont have pathfinding yet
22:51:11  <Progman> there is no AICompany->winGame()? damn...
22:51:11  <GhostBear> This example of one of my works :P
22:51:18  <XeryusTC> which makes building roads even harder
22:51:45  <Zuu> XeryusTC: Harder, yes, but not impossible.
22:51:56  <XeryusTC> i know
22:52:02  <XeryusTC> you have to do some pathfinding yourself
22:52:08  <Zuu> yes.
22:52:09  <XeryusTC> GhostBear: for what game is that GTA?
22:52:31  <Zuu> I know the principles of A* quite well so there I go :)
22:52:34  <GhostBear> GTA? O_O
22:52:46  <XeryusTC> heh
22:52:53  <XeryusTC> i just thought of a more basic pathfinder
22:52:55  <GhostBear> SFT you means?
22:53:01  <XeryusTC> oh
22:53:03  <Zuu> I've even made a A* demostartion-progarm for my project-work in high school.
22:53:19  <GhostBear> This is abreviature from something i can't remember... Special F... T...
22:53:27  <Zuu> Can be found on my homepage: for anyone interested.
22:54:48  <XeryusTC> oh
22:54:51  <Zuu> XeryusTC: My first try would probably just go first in say X-direction untill it hits something and then switch to move closer targen in Y-direction untill it hit something (or reaches the target-Y), and then continue like that.
22:55:20  <XeryusTC> yes, mine would be something like that too
22:55:25  <Zuu> Stupid yes, but can probably work. :)
22:55:46  <Zuu> For the esier cases at least :p
22:55:50  <XeryusTC> find a road which ends close to the other town and try to connect it in the same way :P
22:56:18  * GhostBear can't wait till try something :P
22:56:21  <XeryusTC> it could pose problems when you want to cross a mountain range when you can also go through a valley
22:56:37  <Thomas[NL]> I can't even compile without errors by using the wiki guide ...
22:56:49  <XeryusTC> writing a complete AI isnt really viable now IMO as quite some important API is missing
22:56:59  <Zuu> Yes :)
22:57:04  <XeryusTC> Thomas[NL]: the wiki is squirrel, not C++
22:57:41  <Thomas[NL]> k
22:57:42  <XeryusTC> Thomas[NL]: that would become something like this (very old)
22:58:00  <GhostBear> Junctioneer looks interesting :]
22:58:13  <XeryusTC> Zuu: look at SetName in that diff
22:59:17  <XeryusTC> i should make it pick a name randomly though
23:01:38  <Zuu> XeryusTC: Nice :)
23:01:38  *** Bjarni changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.5.1-RC1 | Website: * (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs)
23:02:33  *** Progman [] has left #openttd []
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23:03:07  <GhostBear> Is there any other channels on this server? :O
23:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> did i miss the "tag 0.5.1-RC1" commit message?
23:03:49  <Thomas[NL]> Ok, I think I get the construction a bit :)
23:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> !openttd commit
23:04:14  <_42_> Commit by rubidium :: r9383 /tags/0.5.1-RC1/ (981 files in 27 dirs) (2007-03-20 21:25:34 UTC)
23:04:16  <_42_> -Release 0.5.1-RC1.
23:04:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> there's definitely too much talking going on here ;)
23:05:39  <Bjarni> oh really?
23:06:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i think i now missed a <sarcasm> tag
23:07:11  *** Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@] has joined #openttd
23:07:46  <GhostBear> listens >Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication<
23:07:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> GhostBear: stop that please.
23:08:13  <GhostBear> oh :[
23:08:14  <GhostBear> okay
23:08:17  <GhostBear> Stupid script :(
23:08:42  * Sacro|Laptop is listening to Atomic Kitten - Be with you
23:09:28  <_Ben_> I've got a problem, anyone know why the following happens..?  (refering to link) << If I stick a train line along 1.2.3 tile 2 seems to sit ontop of tile 1, yet it should sit behind...right?
23:10:37  <GhostBear> omg! 324 kb! :[
23:10:42  <Rubidium> do you have a picture of that too?
23:11:00  <GhostBear> Why not compressed? }:(
23:11:11  <Rubidium> because that takes more time?
23:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> sounds like a tile height/foundation/spritesorter problem
23:11:18  <_Ben_> I can get one, but not of the original graphics, so I figureed it wouldn't be as clear to make out
23:11:23  <GhostBear> Because i'm paying for MBs! :(
23:11:25  <Jezral> PNG is compressed.
23:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> GhostBear: png is already compressed
23:11:35  <_Ben_> GhostBear: what the hell are you talking about?
23:11:37  <Jezral> It's just lossless.
23:11:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> if your traffic is limited, just don't click on every link
23:12:10  <GhostBear> You little image have size of high-quality photo =\
23:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> GhostBear: high quality photos do not start under 3MB
23:12:38  <GhostBear> Depends on link description i thinked this is just part of screenshot what can't have big size
23:12:41  <Jezral> High quality photos are 10mb even in JPEG.
23:13:15  <GhostBear> 324kb is too much for most-green 538 x 274 pic :(
23:13:41  <Jezral> You ought to get a browser plugin that sends a HEAD request to get the size and warn you, then...
23:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> all screenshots i have taken from openttd are between 500 and 700 KB
23:14:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> that picture is probably from 32bpp branch
23:14:36  <Thomas[NL]> XeryusTC: how does your .cpp file look like? I have to go and would like to study it together with the .hpp file
23:14:36  <Zuu> GhostBear: And now you even have to download a long discussion about file-sizes </sarcasm> :p ;)
23:14:36  <glx> giant screenshot are bigger :)
23:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> and it is not all green, practically every pixel has a hugely different colour from the neighbour
23:14:55  <Thomas[NL]> btw. I managed to get an AI ingame and name it etc :)
23:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> it does not look very compressible
23:15:03  <Zuu> Thomas[NL]: Nice :)
23:15:15  <XeryusTC> Thomas[NL]:
23:15:17  <Zuu> Thomas[NL]: Try the -a flag to force the use of your AI.
23:15:29  <Thomas[NL]> I just deleten NoAI :o
23:15:31  <XeryusTC> and most of the information you need is on the wiki
23:15:38  <XeryusTC> Zuu: there is a flag for that already?
23:15:44  <Thomas[NL]> I think ...
23:15:45  <Zuu> XeryusTC: Yes.
23:15:50  <XeryusTC> i just uncommented the lines in the .nut file and the .cpp file :P
23:15:59  <glx> the old way :)
23:16:16  <Zuu> But I got told about it by probably Rubidium or TrueLight, as it is not documented.
23:16:34  <XeryusTC> heh, i know they said it, but they havent told me yet
23:16:38  <Zuu> But the --help list the available AIs. :)
23:16:46  <Thomas[NL]> how to use the -a flag?
23:16:55  <Zuu> Thomas[NL]: ./openttd --help
23:17:16  <Thomas[NL]> ah ok ty
23:17:18  <_Ben_> Rubidium, heres a picture with the tile extended so it over laps.
23:17:22  <Zuu> then ./openttd -a "Zuu AI" for me.
23:17:24  <_Ben_> <<heres a jpeg
23:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> screenshots like this:
23:17:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> argh
23:17:40  <GhostBear> <- 80kb =\
23:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> screenshots like this:,%204.%20Sep%201925.png
23:17:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> ~700kb
23:18:19  <Zuu> Thomas[NL]: basicly use the identifier for the AI that the --help shows.
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23:18:28  <Thomas[NL]> guys i'm off gl and tnx for all
23:18:42  <GhostBear> Damn! Forget about image sizes! :D
23:18:43  <Thomas[NL]> Zuu: yes I read it :)
23:18:46  <XeryusTC> heh, it seems to work :)
23:18:48  <GhostBear> This is not #png :P
23:18:52  <Thomas[NL]> bb
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23:19:51  <michi_cc> Rubidium, Bjarni: feeling responsible? 4a70778aee05677584e329320c6703c3
23:20:03  <XeryusTC> Ippen shinde miru? <- that is what my AI says when it gets told to stop
23:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> in situations like on the screenshot, i really wish i could build actual turning tunnels
23:21:31  <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause3: i tlooks cool :)
23:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, it does ;)
23:21:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> thank you ;)
23:22:39  <XeryusTC> i think ill go to bed now
23:22:49  <Rubidium> _Ben_: the problem you're facing is the fact that in tile 1 the rail is drawn as background, whereas in tile 2 the rail is put into the sprite sorter (due to the foundation)
23:22:54  <Zuu> good night everyone! :)
23:22:57  <Rubidium> michi_cc: added it
23:23:03  <XeryusTC> gn all
23:23:21  <_Ben_> Rubidium are, ok.  I'll have to work around that then
23:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> a more urban area:,%2028.%20Aug%201924.png
23:24:23  <michi_cc> Rubidium: thanks
23:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, wrong picture
23:25:32  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish.]
23:27:26  <glx> Eddi|zuHause3: yep more rural than urban ;)
23:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it picks the wrong file, it autocorrects the name from '28' to '20', because the other file does not exist
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23:31:10  <_Ben_> Rubidium, thats a bit of a bummer.  I was gunna make each tiles near side overlap at a 22.5 degree angle so that the joint was at the point when visually the tracks are the same distance appart...hmm
23:31:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> gnah, i have trouble logging in since a few weeks, i should probably show up at university once in a while ;)
23:31:20  <_Ben_> not shore how im gunna make them fit propelly now
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23:33:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> what stops you from generally putting the rail into the sprite sorter, not just for foundations?
23:34:00  <_Ben_> lack of knowledge on the matter
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23:36:59  <Sacro|Laptop> lolman: oh noes
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23:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> in context of my screenshot above, has anyone ever made a snowy depot?
23:37:58  <lolman> Sacro|Laptop: oh noes indeed
23:38:10  <lolman> I reinstalled, and started using Fluxbox :P
23:38:14  <Sacro|Laptop> hehe, nice
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23:40:02  * lolman reminds self to sort sound out
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23:47:11  <_Ben_> im puzzled still!.  Why (in the image I linked to a miniut ago) does the rail get stuck into sprite sorter only for the rile with the varying vertical rocky edge bit on.  The other tiles with rocky edging are fine
23:47:36  <_Ben_> and the trail and rocks don't need to render in any relative order anyway, since they don't overlap at all
23:47:44  <_Ben_> trail/rail
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23:53:52  <rane> is full loading passengers good idea?
23:54:52  <ammler> rane: It depense, if you like to play like realism or not...
23:55:23  <ammler> (In RL, you won't find a train, where is waiting until he is full.)
23:58:12  <Smoovious> yeah, but in RL you don't find passenger who only travel u ntil the nexxt stop  eiether... (weell, a few, but not all of em)

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