Log for #openttd on 8th May 2007:
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00:39:12  <Ailure> jrjrjrjehehe
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00:41:02  <Ailure> hehe
00:43:09  <Sacro_> ?
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02:03:37  <UndernotBuilder> YAI (Yet Another Idea): what about ability to set prices of the ticket, like in rct?
02:05:03  <Belugas_Gone> the passenger ticket, you mean?
02:07:52  <Belugas_Gone> don't like the idea
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02:08:19  <Belugas_Gone> open door to tons of exageration
02:08:21  <Belugas_Gone> and...
02:08:40  <Belugas_Gone> if you set price for tickets,
02:08:56  <Belugas_Gone> what stop you to set prce for the rest of teh cargos?
02:09:17  <Belugas_Gone> if they do that in rct, well good for them
02:09:29  <Belugas_Gone> we are ottd
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02:14:48  <UndernotBuilder> well... it's obvious that when prices are too high users will complain and you will get less passengers
02:15:28  <UndernotBuilder> and if you set low prices you get some more pax
02:17:08  <Belugas_Gone> problem is that currently, users do not complain, since they are voiceless caracters
02:17:18  <Belugas_Gone> so, basically, they cannot voice anything
02:17:30  <Belugas_Gone> now, froim waht you just mentionned, it means that in fact,
02:17:51  <Belugas_Gone> therer should be a system of balancing offer and demand
02:17:57  <Belugas_Gone> with pricing and all...
02:18:00  <Belugas_Gone> now...
02:18:20  <Belugas_Gone> it may be quite a challenge for a code point of view.
02:18:40  <Belugas_Gone> one that i do not think would be a real benefit of the game.
02:27:18  <Belugas_Gone> i just realize i do not have a single screenshot of what the smallmap looks like in TTDPatch with ukrsi activated
02:27:23  <Belugas_Gone> mmh
02:27:34  <Belugas_Gone> search function on forums, here i go
02:29:32  <DaleStan> Belugas_Gone: The map's industry color key? Probably not very interesting. It only displays the first $SMALLNUM industries.
02:30:04  <Belugas_Gone> what do you mean? there is no list of all the industry legends and colors?
02:30:30  <DaleStan> Yes, there is, but it's in the Fund Industry window instead.
02:31:27  <Belugas_Gone> i see
02:31:31  <Belugas_Gone> so :
02:31:40  <Belugas_Gone> this would be something peculiar to ottd then
02:32:26  <Belugas_Gone> am i right?
02:36:07  <DaleStan> Indeed. Patch doesn't do that. It just shows the default industries, at least with UKRSI
02:37:35  <UndernotBuilder> what is more inneficient than generating diffs based on another diff?
02:38:05  <Belugas_Gone> thanks DaleStan.
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02:39:28  <DaleStan> Lots of things. If you've got two diffs where the second supercedes the first, you have to revert the first diff before you can apply the second. If the second is based on the first, then you only have to apply the second.
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05:41:57  <TheJosh> Hey all!
05:46:10  <TheJosh> how are various peoples in this virtual room going?
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06:55:09  <boekabart_> good morning, europe
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07:22:32  <SpComb> morn'
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07:38:56  <peter1138> hi
07:42:55  <SpComb> HAI2U
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08:30:01  <peter1138> pompiedom
08:30:09  <boekabart1> high level remark!
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08:31:03  <boekabart_> did I join twice now?
08:31:10  <boekabart1> apparently, weird?
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08:32:17  <peter1138> yes indeed
08:32:30  <peter1138> so rivers & waterlevels...
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08:33:10  <boekabart_> so how do I make the server recognize+accept my nick without manually having to "/msg nickServ identify" ?
08:33:33  <boekabart_> this client doesn't seem to support startup scripts
08:35:49  <peter1138> pass
08:41:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9813 /trunk/src/ (engine.h table/engines.h): -Fix (r9799): wagons must have EC_STEAM, otherwise they don't show up in the purchase list (mart3p).
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08:50:14  <peter1138> o_O
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09:00:53  <boekabart_> Is there a way to let the IRC server 'recognise' me by IP address?
09:02:43  <peter1138>
09:03:09  <peter1138> probably msg nickserv with help...
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09:13:41  <boekabart> CPU: 1 x Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.80GHz @ 2793 MHZ (x86 Family 15 Model 2 Stepping 9), 0 kb Cache
09:13:59  <boekabart> wtf did I click!?
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09:14:33  <ln-> do you have hyperthreading too?
09:14:38  <boekabart> no
09:14:47  <boekabart> my boss was too cheap for that
09:15:00  <boekabart> but i do have cache more than 0kb i'm sure :)
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09:27:33  <boekabart> nick boekabart_
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09:29:51  <boekabart> irc is driving me insane
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09:31:47  <boekabart> irc is driving me crazy
09:32:08  <TrueBrain> you us too ;)
09:32:54  <EdwardTLS> ?
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09:33:32  <boekabart> as what user@host did i log on now?
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09:40:54  <boekabart_> when that ^^ ~boekabart@ is on the access list, you're supposed to be recognized automatically, right!?
09:41:24  <Sacro> me? no...
09:41:26  <Sacro> i'm Sacro
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09:44:27  <peter1138> might have to drop the ~
09:44:32  <peter1138> but i don't know
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09:51:48  <boekabart> /who
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09:55:06  <boekabart_> got it to work. just added *@my_ip :)
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10:51:41  <berger> hi
10:52:33  <berger> i have a quick TTD newbie question regarding Depots
10:53:16  <berger> when building one-way tracks
10:53:19  <berger> yet you need a depot
10:53:25  <berger> and using signals
10:53:42  <berger> is there any way of stopping the train from travelling in the "wrong" direction when it leaves the depot
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10:55:30  <Patrick> hook up the depot so that trains can go both ways
10:55:35  <Patrick> if you build it next to track it should just d it
10:56:38  <boekabart> berger: i suppose you don't want to just put 1 way signals on the main track just before and after the depot, because that's the easiest way to do it
10:57:21  <berger> yeah i have done that Patrick but occasionally they come out and go anti clock instead of clockwise if you see what i mean
10:57:59  <boekabart> if you don't want that, build the depot 1 tile away from the main line (or more), connect it with 2 '45 degree' tracks and put the 1-way signals on those connectors
10:58:22  <berger> ok boekabart ill try that thanks :)
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11:16:58  <Patrick> that's because the pathfinder is confused
11:21:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> it takes a lot to confuse the pathfinder nowadays
11:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> so there might be a deeper problem with your layout
11:43:31  <boekabart> SpComb:!logs
11:43:57  <SpComb> Logs:
11:43:57  <boekabart> !logs
11:51:38  <SpComb> alternatively,
11:52:04  <boekabart> fancy :)
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11:53:12  <SpComb> very
11:53:39  <SpComb> I'm not a bot, there's no need to query me :<
11:56:02  <boekabart> so who is this !logs bot then ;)
11:56:34  <SpComb> well, I just have my client set to respond to them, and it also does the logs for the origional logs site. SpBot does the new one
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12:15:55  <lolman> Ooh my PC at home's fallen over obviously
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12:20:36  <lolman> :)
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12:33:13  <TheJosh> hi all
12:34:01  <peter1138> hi
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12:55:53  <RobertGrammig> somebody in a thread claimed that the wealth of a city determines the amount of citizens at stations. is there any documentation on how this wealth value is calculated, and on the factors affecting it? cant find anything in the wiki
12:57:01  <boekabart> afaik it's only calculated from the houses in the catchment area
12:58:01  <boekabart> city isn't so much of an entity, it a 'point' that counts all the buildings around it to figure out its population
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12:59:02  <RobertGrammig>
12:59:25  <RobertGrammig> so scia is just wrong about the current development nightlies?
13:01:31  <boekabart> i don't know what he means by rich
13:02:10  <boekabart> is he talking about a specific branch?
13:02:54  <RobertGrammig> to me it sounds like he is referring to the plain nightlies... probably just confusing rich with populated
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14:29:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r9814 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Fix (r1): Remove the duplicate sign sprite from openttd.grf since it's in the original data files.
14:41:39  <hylje> omg, r1 fix
14:42:28  <peter1138> happens sometimes ;p
14:42:35  <ln-> what's r1?
14:42:35  <peter1138> i did one the other day
14:42:53  <peter1138> r1 is the dawn of time
14:42:57  <peter1138> nothing exists before r1
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14:47:45  <ln-> that's so not true.
14:48:10  <ln-> svn's revision numbering starts from zero.
14:48:21  <peter1138> but at 0, there is nothing
14:48:32  <peter1138> everything pops into existence at 1
14:49:31  <hylje> it would be silly to have everything pop into existence at 2
14:50:25  <DaleStan> But actually, there were over 900 revisions before r1.
14:50:48  <hylje> would those be r-899..r0 ?
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14:52:53  <ln-> DaleStan: we all believe that OpenTTD was created at r1 by a supernatural force, and there was nothing before that.
14:53:11  <hylje> intelligent design at its finest
14:53:12  <hylje> :o
14:53:15  <DaleStan> !openttd commit 1
14:53:15  <DaleStan> Those would be r1..r975. The old SVN server crashed.
14:53:20  <_42_> Commit by truelight :: r1 /trunk/ (200 files in 10 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
14:53:22  <_42_> Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
14:54:32  <hylje> !openttd commit 9025
14:55:32  <_42_> Commit by celestar :: r9025 /branches/gamebalance/ (1035 files in 34 dirs) (2007-03-06 15:09:50 UTC)
14:55:33  <_42_> [gamebalance] -Branch: Created a branch for rebalancing the economic aspects game
14:56:21  <Patrick> ironic for the 10,000th revision
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14:58:12  <DaleStan> Wow. Only 200 files. It's now 529 files in trunk alone.
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15:00:17  <peter1138> 1035 si wrong, heh
15:01:29  <glx> @openttd commit 9025
15:01:32  <DorpsGek> glx: Commit by celestar :: r9025 branches/gamebalance/ (2007-03-06 15:09:50 UTC)
15:01:33  <DorpsGek> glx: [gamebalance] -Branch: Created a branch for rebalancing the economic aspects game
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15:01:51  <glx> and this bot doesn't count
15:02:37  <hylje> my svn bot counts, but it isnt configurable and only listens to commits :\
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15:09:31  <Belugas> Is there anyone with ttdpatch working?  i would like to have a screenshot of the Industry funding window with ukrsi installed, and only ukrsi
15:09:37  <Belugas> would be appreciated :)
15:12:16  <Maedhros> i'll fire up dosbox
15:13:37  <Maedhros> shame it's too slow to play a proper game with though :(
15:15:39  <peter1138> heh, same here
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15:16:44  <Maedhros> Belugas: here you go -
15:19:06  <Belugas> thanks
15:19:08  <Belugas> but...
15:19:22  <Belugas> can you show me the first part of the window too?
15:19:31  <Belugas> if it's not too much to ask...
15:20:06  <Maedhros> how do you mean, the first part?
15:20:31  <Belugas> looking at the scroll bar, i see the end of the list
15:20:51  <Belugas> therefor, i can guess there are some more industries at the top of the list
15:20:57  <Maedhros> ah,,,
15:21:20  <Maedhros> s/,,/ ok/
15:23:02  <Maedhros>
15:23:22  <peter1138> hmm, boring ;p
15:24:23  <Belugas> not for me :D
15:24:35  <Belugas> although i know what it means...
15:24:47  <Belugas> comparaison of behaviours,
15:24:49  <peter1138> hmm?
15:24:52  <Belugas> debug and tralalal
15:24:55  <Belugas> +a
15:25:07  <Belugas> thanks a lot Maedhros
15:25:09  <peter1138> can we have a preview? ;)
15:25:30  <Belugas>
15:25:31  <Maedhros> no problem Belugas
15:25:53  <Belugas> and from what i can see, it is not exactly what's expected
15:26:28  <Maedhros> feh, my house smells of fish :(
15:26:31  <peter1138> hmm?
15:26:48  <peter1138> what's the problem with it?
15:27:16  <peter1138> apart from shuffle
15:27:44  <Belugas> shuffle is one, wrong strings used
15:27:51  <Belugas>
15:28:01  <Belugas> this is an old screeni
15:28:09  <Belugas> it should look better now, but i'
15:28:18  <Belugas> ve not really worked on it lately
15:29:37  <Belugas> Maedhros : real house or newhouses? :D
15:31:52  <Belugas> i wonder if the slot in which the new industry is located would matter during callbacks and all
15:32:01  <Belugas> that is my biggest fear right now
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15:40:31  <Belugas> and it seems i don't have brick works
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15:40:40  <Belugas> and food processiong plant does not show
15:41:09  <Belugas> although i recall seeing it ingame
15:41:44  <Belugas> it could be SHUFFLE, though
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15:42:11  <Belugas> hey guys!  look!  there is egladil :)
15:42:13  <Belugas> hello egladil
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16:26:36  <Wolf01> hello
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16:37:46  <SpComb> failure, I restarted postgres and naturally SpBot died
16:38:33  <SpComb> hmm
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16:43:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9815 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix (r9761) [FS#769): transfers weren't accounted in the vehicle profits.
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16:48:00  <Thomas[NL]> hmm, TTRS3, are "old" roads supposed to be converted to those "New" roads after 1970 OR should roads build after 1970 be new-roads. And OTTD does not support this? Or is it intended to be the way it is now in OTTD (roads depend on start-date)?
16:48:34  <glx> Thomas[NL]: depends on current date when the grf is loaded
16:49:03  <Thomas[NL]> Is this a limitation of ottd or the grf?
16:49:10  <glx> the grf
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16:49:23  <Thomas[NL]> ok thank you :)
16:49:55  <Thomas[NL]> I love those new roads but I don't want to start past 1970 :(
16:50:16  <Rubidium> save and reload in 1970 ;)
16:50:21  <glx> use the right param
16:50:25  <boekabart> or edit the grf
16:51:19  <glx> hmm there isn't a param to force the road
16:51:24  <Patrick> or use the cheats
16:53:09  <Thomas[NL]> But I don't want the new buildings...
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16:59:45  <Maedhros> there is a param for which buildings get built :)
17:00:41  <glx> but he wants buildings of all eras with modern roads
17:02:48  <Wolf01> Maedhros! Adjoin?
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17:03:49  <Maedhros> Wolf01: sorry, it's mindless tv time again ;)
17:03:58  <Wolf01> :)
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17:04:32  <Wolf01> this night i might have a wii-party, so i don't know if i can help you, if you might need my help :P
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17:05:17  <Wolf01> (is the most number of *ght sentence i ever wrote!)
17:09:29  <Maedhros> back, briefly
17:09:41  <Maedhros> the problem i have is with the user interface, not the code...
17:10:03  <Maedhros> if ctrl should always build a new station, how do you extend a station so it adjoins others?
17:10:06  <Wolf01> what's the problem?
17:10:29  <Maedhros> or build over an existing station if it touches a different one
17:10:33  <Wolf01> that's a problem
17:11:08  <Wolf01> the only way is to have the distant join code, which allows you to do it veeery easily
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17:13:04  <dihedral> hey there
17:13:12  <Wolf01> hi
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18:31:31  <Wolf01> boekabart, what about the rivers patch?
18:31:54  <boekabart> have not yet had time to test the grf
18:32:24  <boekabart> it's actually not a rivers patch, it's a higher sea level patch that was modified a bit to support rivers too
18:32:36  <boekabart> but they are controversial in the current implementation: flooding risk is huge
18:33:09  <Wolf01> yeah
18:33:45  <Belugas> leads to a new industry type : rice culture ;)
18:34:01  <Wolf01> maybe, i can suggest you this: let the water start to flow in a random direction where it can, and continue to flow in the same direction until it find an obstacle
18:34:01  <boekabart> as i said before, i've been playing with another approach (for both), but it's graphically even more challenging
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18:36:28  <Wolf01> this will make straight rivers of water in a plateau, but with some "noise" you can do some realistic rivers
18:37:15  <Bjarni> <Belugas>	leads to a new industry type : rice culture ;) <-- that would be a natural followup on the Japanese and Chinese translations ;)
18:38:00  <boekabart> I'll post some shots of what I have tomorrow
18:38:07  <Wolf01> good
18:41:26  <Belugas> Bjarni : good one :)
18:42:00  <peter1138> boekabart: graphically isn't a problem
18:42:06  <boekabart> it is
18:42:14  <boekabart> because water tiles raise single pixels
18:42:23  <boekabart> imagine a coast..
18:42:30  <peter1138> hmm
18:42:33  <peter1138> ok, it is :p
18:42:43  <boekabart> coasts are the most tricky
18:42:44  <peter1138> but it's not insurmountable
18:42:53  <peter1138> just need different sprites for each level
18:42:59  <peter1138> but that's only 8 for each type
18:43:05  <peter1138> only... heh
18:43:50  <boekabart> the 1 pixel diff in height can be done by drawing an edge around it like it's done for slopes with something built on it
18:44:05  <Wolf01> peter1138, i was reading boekabart blog: "Peter1138 added the transaparent water option, so you can see how deep the sea is. In the 32bpp version, we can make the water surface semi-transparent I guess." why not also in 8bpp? you can make houses and trees transparent, tiles could be transparent too
18:44:21  <boekabart> but to convert all coasts to straight 'quays' ...
18:44:41  <peter1138> Wolf01: it looks shit
18:44:57  <Wolf01> oh, that's why
18:45:10  <boekabart> Wolf01: there is a conversion palette for 'transparant' and it is not pretty for water
18:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> for transparent water, you should have sea-ground sprites that are dark blue
18:45:34  <peter1138> we can add a palette map for it
18:45:49  <boekabart> i'm for ;)
18:45:51  <peter1138> but... you need gridlines on the surface for it to look good
18:46:21  <peter1138> boekabart: we need a lot of sprites for this waterlevel, but is that a big issue?
18:46:57  <boekabart> well no
18:47:31  <boekabart> i'll post shots tomorrow morning (CET) so everyone can see what we are talking about.
18:47:59  <peter1138> hmm, we'll need corner flooding too
18:49:00  <boekabart> but now, i'm going to play Kardinal & Konig on BrettSpielWelt with some old friends. that's what we do all tuesdays...
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18:59:17  <peter1138> 19:55 < patchbot> SVN commit: r1549 by eis_os (2 files in trunk/patches/):  added initial code for rivers in the canals code.
18:59:23  <peter1138> we've been beaten :p
19:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> they probably have been spying on us, and copied our feature :)
19:00:39  <Bjarni> they do that from time to time
19:00:58  <Bjarni> they copied my autoreplace idea, yet not the GUI
19:01:15  <Bjarni> they still lack the ability to have two horizontal scrollbars :p
19:01:35  <Maedhros> it's only fair, given the number of patch features we've 'appropriated' :)
19:02:11  <peter1138> yeah, but now they've done it first, therefore we'll be 'copying' them again ;p
19:02:34  <Maedhros> heh
19:03:08  <Bjarni> we never copy anything
19:03:22  <Bjarni> we just brainstorm and figure out nice features and then we code them
19:03:37  <Rubidium> we 'improve' them?
19:03:52  <Bjarni> the fact that somebody else thought about it too has nothing to do with it
19:04:48  <Bjarni> everything we do is an improvement over the patch because it runs natively on my computer ;)
19:05:27  <Sacro|Laptop> but does it run linux?
19:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> there is a big difference about two people separately developing an idea, or one person picking up an idea from someone else (and then implementing it differently)
19:06:02  <Zuu> What's most important here is not if it run on Linux or not but that it run on Bjarni's computer. :)
19:06:14  <Bjarni> yeah
19:07:25  <Zuu> So a version that run of a bootable memory stick would also be fine :)
19:08:17  <Bjarni> I didn't say that :p
19:08:28  <Bjarni> because then I would lack IRC
19:09:21  <SpComb> <-- follow this conversation in real-time with three-second granularity :P
19:11:32  <SpComb> as in, it now updates itself
19:12:34  <peter1138> <meta http-equiv="refresh"...
19:12:45  <SpComb> no, it's XHR
19:12:46  <peter1138> but damn, grey on black sucks for reading
19:12:59  <SpComb> default irssi theme, you can change it
19:13:10  <SpComb> Preferences -> Theme -> irssi_plain or even mirc
19:13:28  <peter1138> better
19:13:34  <peter1138> such a small window though :p
19:13:44  <SpComb> small in width or height?
19:13:48  <peter1138> height
19:13:52  <peter1138> and width
19:13:52  <SpComb> "Show more lines"
19:13:59  <peter1138> the text around it is fucking massive
19:14:03  <Bjarni> why should we waste bandwidth on both using IRC and watch this homepage?
19:14:11  <peter1138> but the text of irc is tiny
19:14:11  <SpComb> width should be as wide as fits in your browser, although perhaps it's a fixed width
19:14:27  <peter1138> there're two huge grey borders
19:14:31  <peter1138> plus the menu on the left...
19:14:40  <Sacro|Laptop> nicklist doesn't work
19:14:47  <Sacro|Laptop> argh, 5 mins of battery
19:14:48  <Sacro|Laptop> bbl
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19:16:28  <peter1138>
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19:17:33  <peter1138> by "tiny" i mean normal sized, of course
19:24:23  <SpComb> and in what way does the nicklist not work?
19:24:30  <SpComb> what's your resolution?
19:24:40  <peter1138> mine? 1280x960
19:24:49  <SpComb> there's not really any technical limitation on the width of it, but currently I think it's expressed as a percentage
19:25:31  <SpComb> width: 80%;
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19:31:18  <Bjarni> Sacro_: did you find a spare battery?
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19:35:00  <Bjarni> I guess not
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19:50:07  <Phazorx> how new town roads work again ?
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19:51:58  <Belugas> Phazorx : you set the layout you want towns to have and you watch them laying them
19:52:10  <Belugas> unless there is something else?
19:52:50  <Phazorx> Belugas: does it affect growth only or initial generation as well ?
19:52:57  <Phazorx> is there a wiki page?
19:54:12  <Belugas> dunno about wiki.  does not affect town growth, just how the roads are traced when town expand :)
19:54:36  <Desolator> is teh guy who made BuildOTTD here?
19:54:51  <glx> no
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19:55:19  <Desolator> I wanted to tell him that I made a better installer without using MSI
19:55:42  <Phazorx> Belugas: that's what  imeant by growth
19:55:45  <boekabart> in his face!!
19:56:21  <Phazorx> so, Belugas, the settings are for future expansion as the game goes, doe not affect generator?
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19:58:00  <peter1138> it will slightly, as the position of roads affects town growth, but not a lot
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19:58:37  <Phazorx> peter1138: i'm not implying growth of population... only geometrical size and structure of roads
19:58:51  <peter1138> best bet: test it
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19:59:14  <Phazorx> basicaly downtown is screewed up as generator sets it but from that point it will be structured
19:59:37  <Phazorx> peter1138: trying to figure out how to get it working 1st
20:02:47  <Phazorx> oh... it's a patch in game option
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20:02:59  <Belugas> Phazorx : Easy.  Before generating a game, go to Configure patches, section construction. Choose the proper town-layout (default,better roads etc) and then genreate new game
20:02:59  <Phazorx> nm... i was thinking it's config option w/o interface
20:03:48  <Phazorx> Belugas: figured out already thanks
20:04:04  <Phazorx> unrelated question - "when dragging place signals every ... "
20:04:16  <Phazorx> having it set to 2 - it works on straights
20:04:27  <Phazorx> but for diagonals it places lighs every 3rd half tile
20:04:40  <Phazorx> hance it's more like 1.5tiles
20:05:15  <Phazorx> i guess since train sace same way - it doesnt matter
20:05:43  <Phazorx> but when dragged for short distances - terminating lights are not set and can create halftile gaps :/
20:06:25  <Phazorx> and if anyone cares - patch affects generator too
20:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> the generator is just supposed to run the town growth function a few times
20:08:54  <Phazorx> figures
20:09:17  <Phazorx> i wonder if it possible to synch the grids of nearby towns :)
20:09:39  <Phazorx> at generathion time that is
20:09:39  <peter1138> lol
20:09:44  <boekabart> some magnetics in it?
20:10:04  <peter1138> "I made an installer for this which is much better than your MSI Installer" < desolator's modest..
20:10:04  <Phazorx> yeah, heh
20:10:59  <Phazorx> it might look ugly as nerby towns grow to have paralele roads going on next tiles
20:13:25  <boekabart> that's actually easy
20:13:34  <boekabart> never extend a road if it's parallel to another?
20:14:07  <boekabart> or: when it comes next to another road (from another town?), connect them which will stop the expanding
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20:15:29  <Patrick> or
20:15:39  <Phazorx> sounds like an idea for RFP
20:15:40  <Patrick> what is the grid centered relative to?
20:15:47  <Patrick> only ever grid on odd-numbered tiles
20:15:47  <Phazorx> cuz it isnt so now
20:15:51  <Patrick> or whatevers' necessary
20:18:58  <Phazorx>
20:19:52  <Patrick> yeah, that's a mess
20:20:38  <Belugas> new town replacment :)
20:20:52  <Belugas> didn't though people were still using it
20:20:57  <Belugas> 25
20:21:03  <Belugas> oups
20:21:26  <Phazorx> i kinda like it
20:22:17  <Belugas> you're entitled to it :)
20:22:23  <peter1138> hehe
20:22:25  <Belugas> it's just that i did it so long ago...
20:22:37  <Belugas> though it was not used anymore
20:22:46  <Phazorx> well thanks and it's cool :)
20:22:52  <peter1138> thoughtt+t+t
20:22:57  <peter1138> wtf
20:23:11  <Patrick> lol
20:23:16  <peter1138> fucking lag, stops ^U working properly :/
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20:25:13  <Phazorx> since there are some grf developers here - are there any cars/wagons only sets ?
20:25:27  <Phazorx> which can be used as an addition to engines sets ?
20:25:43  <Phazorx> or as a replacement for standard ones
20:25:55  <peter1138> cargoset, i think
20:25:58  <peter1138> old though
20:26:29  <peter1138> probably doesn't play well with engine sets, either
20:26:31  <Phazorx> i tried including it after train set - and it got a bit messy
20:26:36  <peter1138> yeah
20:27:01  <Phazorx> but that's a trainsets problems i guess
20:27:37  <Phazorx> would be nice to have a 'engines' and 'cars' bits
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20:35:54  <Bulb> Hello Folks,
20:36:27  <Bulb> I am currently sketching some small fixes in the aircraft handling and want to ask.
20:36:37  <Bulb> What do you think about speed of broken-down aircraft?
20:38:01  <ln-> well above zero
20:38:05  <Bulb> The current value is 320km/h. That feels way too slow (It's 170ktas, which for larger aircraft would mean flaps down)
20:38:30  <Phazorx> i guess point of speed reduction is to introdice delays - instead i'd rather see mandatory landing on closest port
20:38:48  <Phazorx> or faling down if there is none :)
20:39:00  <ln-> and priority given to the broken one
20:39:12  <Phazorx> naturally
20:39:14  <Phazorx> that's harder tho
20:39:36  <Phazorx> going to land off course is hard too
20:40:19  <Phazorx> as well as having "range" which is currently abcent unfortunatelly :(
20:40:25  <Bulb> Well, I'd love to see 'has to land within 100 squares or crashes' as well.
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20:40:35  <Phazorx> configurable range :)
20:40:36  <Bulb> However, it's really hard to do.
20:40:57  <Phazorx> Bulb: find aiport in rnage or fall down now is easier
20:41:10  <Phazorx> assuming there is range as property
20:41:23  <Bulb> A quick improvement would be what (if I understood one post in the forum) TTDP does -- the speed is reduced to 5/8.
20:41:42  <Phazorx> that's still ugly
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20:42:09  <Phazorx> my point was - havining wange broadens variety of used aircrafts
20:42:15  <Phazorx> wange = range
20:42:35  <Bulb> Does anybody remember what is the original speed of broken down aircraft (at least roughly, asi it didn't have speed readout) in OTTD?
20:42:36  <Phazorx> and also can be used to determine broken travel distance
20:42:42  <Phazorx> 1/4th
20:42:52  <Phazorx> that's TTDs
20:44:05  <Bulb> Phazorx, no, 1/4th was the conversion from displayed speed to in-game speed. The broken-down speed was constant, because being broken down had no effect on helicopters.
20:44:49  <Bulb> (making it feasible to operate a helicopter with 1% reliability, which was in turn necessary because there were no helicopters at all available towards end of the game)
20:44:50  <Phazorx> ahh sorry missed the broken part :)
20:45:42  <Phazorx> 80 mph
20:46:39  <Bulb> In the "displayed" or "real" units?
20:47:52  <Phazorx> in google :)
20:48:10  <Phazorx> i'd say in displayed
20:48:25  <Phazorx> cuz i recall busses passing early planes :)
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20:48:30  <Bulb> Hm, because it does not match my experience with it. Helicopters flew more than 80mph and did not slow down.
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20:49:19  <Bulb> Well, the early planes were flying about 90mph real. ... um, and the broken-down speed was a little less than that, so it might actually have been 80mph real.
20:51:13  <Bulb> That is 320mph displayed. So I'll raise it to 320mph (from 320km/h) in my simple patch and post that patch and than try looking into the land-or-crash. Hm, I am not sure how to give broken-down aircraft priority yet. Maybe CobraA1 will work out his airplane queueing patch and that will support it.
20:51:52  <boekabart> can't a broken airplane do an emergency landing on a road nearby?
20:51:56  <Phazorx> Bulb: i dont think queueing is necessary
20:52:09  <Phazorx> boekabart: finding road is more challenging that airport
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20:52:21  <boekabart> or field then
20:52:21  <Phazorx> not to mention all associated with landing and taking off
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20:52:32  <Phazorx> that's a bit much :)
20:52:55  <boekabart> well.. what happens in real life? Just make sure the aircraft is 100% always maintained....
20:53:11  <Phazorx> TTD is not quite real life
20:53:17  <boekabart> ha, true
20:53:18  <Bulb> No, aircraft has to land on an airport, because they could not repair it elsewhere.
20:53:38  <boekabart> ah and a train is repaired on the middle of the rails?
20:53:51  <Phazorx> Bulb: is implementing range for aircraft with refit options challenging?
20:53:55  <boekabart> so let the plane hang still in the air when broken down. make a ladder come out of it so the engineers can climb up there :)
20:54:06  <Bulb> :-D
20:54:31  <boekabart> okok, had a beer too much... i'll try speaking again tomorrow.... night
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20:56:51  <Bulb> Well, having aircraft requiring to land within some distance or crash would have definitely add to the challenge. Because you could not simply put two airports at oposite ends of the map, you would have to build some emergency landing points in between too.
20:57:39  <Phazorx> yup, here is use for small airports
20:58:01  <Phazorx> also - regular flight range is sometihng that will add variety
20:58:05  <Bulb> Another option is to make aircraft slow down as they do now and have them land at closest airport (but not limiting how far that would be), because that fixes tham.
20:58:24  <Phazorx> and will make planes networks more star based
20:59:02  <Bulb> Well, large aircraft will often crash on small airports, so you can't really use tham.
20:59:08  <Phazorx> i can't say it fixes the issue - planes still gets to destination relatively fast and delivers passengirs
20:59:09  <Bulb> s/tham/them/
20:59:22  <Phazorx> well that can be controlled as well
20:59:37  <Phazorx> and crashing plane should only crash due to range :)
20:59:57  <Belugas> night all
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21:00:34  <Patrick> how about:
21:00:54  <Patrick> the longer the aircraft's journey, the smaller the capacity and the higher the running costs
21:00:58  <Patrick> more fuel, less pax
21:01:11  <Patrick> don't worry about keeping tabs on it per-mile or anything
21:01:15  <Bulb> Aircraft are relatively fast. But their running costs should be so high (hint -- there is one line change missing to make newgrf aircraft sets aware of the bigger speed), that aircraft must actually be always full and not wait too long to land to be profitable.
21:01:18  <Patrick> or else congestion would kill your planes
21:02:07  <Bulb> Yeah. Another thing would be passenger destinations.
21:02:30  <Phazorx> Patrick: any plane has different range depending on load
21:02:49  <Bulb> (But I have to say I don't like the way they are proposed on the forum currently)
21:02:59  <Phazorx> more kerosine = less cargo, more range = more kerosin
21:03:31  <Bulb> I would like passenger destinations, where more people would be interested in closer locations and less in further ones. So there would not be so many passengers that would want to fly.
21:04:00  <Phazorx> i'm not sure if i like that aspect - biger location should have priority
21:04:02  <Phazorx> rather than closer
21:04:09  <Phazorx> i haqve no desire fly where i can drive
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21:04:49  <Bulb> My idea is, that each passenger would also generate a 'negative passenger' and the system would somehow match them up.
21:04:49  *** Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
21:04:57  <ln-> should the planes also be made dump fuel if they need to land sooner than expected?
21:05:05  <Bulb> And the matching would be done so that the probability to match closer points would be higher.
21:05:19  <Phazorx> in that is taken care by maintance fees
21:05:21  <Touqen> ln-: That seems unnecessarily realisitic.
21:05:27  <Phazorx> fuel price is part of that
21:05:41  <Bulb> So more passengers to closer destinations and more passengers to bigger destinations (they generate more so they accept more)
21:05:49  <Phazorx> Bulb: that is not very neccessary and ratehr hard
21:06:16  <Phazorx> if you have passengeer generation proporcional to town size - that would require shuttle services
21:06:19  <Phazorx> and terminals
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21:06:38  <Phazorx> so you would collect passengeers to same big city
21:06:53  <Bulb> Phazorx: There are different ways to generate the passenger destinations and the choice has huge impact on the gameplay.
21:06:55  <Phazorx> from few local towns somewhere and these use big aircraft to get them there
21:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> aircraft running costs increase with the time they spend continuously in the air, that could be interesting
21:07:19  <Phazorx> Bulb: totaly agree... size based aproach seems to be less challenging to implement tho
21:07:42  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause2: fees are per time
21:07:53  <Phazorx> more flight = more time = more cost
21:08:11  <Phazorx> that si taken care of aside of proportions
21:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> but the aircraft range thing... should not lead to crashes, only prevent assigning orders for far away airports
21:08:29  <Phazorx> what i'd like is if that 747 is hauling 150t - it goes 200tiles
21:08:33  <Phazorx> if 100 - 300
21:08:37  <Phazorx> and so on
21:08:42  <Phazorx> with option to refit
21:09:03  <Phazorx> so you would have to use 767 for long range
21:09:05  <Bulb> Well, you have to somehow select the station. And selecting it so, that for each station you have number how many passengers it wants and selecting random station that wants passengers might be reasonably simple.
21:10:10  <Phazorx> Bulb: from what i gather you want to generate 2 passengeers every time goign in opposite directions ?
21:10:22  <Bulb> Phazorx: No.
21:11:00  <Bulb> I want to generate some passengers, some 'negative passengers' using the same algorithm and match them up in a random fashion.
21:11:17  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:11:21  <Phazorx> define negative passengers ?
21:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bulb: that does not make sense
21:11:57  <Touqen> What exactly is the purpose of the negative passengers?
21:12:09  <Bulb> It's like electricity. You have electrons and holes. And electrons move to the holes.
21:12:35  <Phazorx> negative
21:12:54  <Bulb> The passenger is a source and "negative passenger" is a destination for one passenger.
21:12:54  <Phazorx> you have a concept involving something and abcence of that something
21:13:38  <Phazorx> electrons are just a nomination defined as "what we use for that something" holes is absece of that something
21:13:39  *** dihedral [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:14:01  <Phazorx> same with positive/negative signs... someone just desided that soemthing will be negatove and be called "electron"
21:14:23  <Phazorx> "hole" is that sometihng being missing somewhere rather than a phisical object
21:15:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> still, what is the sense in aspect of passengers?
21:15:10  <Bulb> Yes. And in the same way "negative passenger" is something missing somewhere (somebody not being there).
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21:15:25  <Phazorx> aside of that i'm still not getting if a negative passenger a passenger or soemthing else
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21:15:44  <Phazorx> Bulb: so is negatove passenger is it's destination then ?
21:15:54  <Bulb> And the (real) passenger wants to "fill in" that "negative passenger", which means travel there.
21:16:05  <Bulb> Yes. "negative passenger" is a destination.
21:16:17  <Bulb> A destination for exactly one passenger.
21:16:20  <Touqen> How would that be better than a simpler approach though?
21:16:40  <Phazorx> and how is it done now with paxdest ?
21:17:52  <Bulb> Well, it's actually quite similar. It currently takes passengers last month as probability and chooses a destination at random.
21:17:55  <dihedral_> good night guys
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21:18:10  <Phazorx> night dihedral
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21:18:35  <Phazorx> Bulb: i think random in that part is quite unrealistic
21:18:40  <Phazorx> weighted random would make more sense
21:18:55  <Bulb> It *IS* weighted.
21:19:12  <Bulb> Didn't I say "the passengers last month is probability"?
21:19:14  <Phazorx> but in that case i'd still sugegst weight based on population of destination ratehr than distance to it
21:19:38  <Phazorx> "passenghers last month" of target ?
21:19:45  <Bulb> Yes, exactly.
21:19:54  <Phazorx> that is same as population then
21:20:04  <Bulb> There is a problem, that stations don't have population.
21:20:19  <Phazorx> or there might be no station
21:20:25  <Phazorx> so if you have 2 airports
21:20:31  <Phazorx> everybody will go inbetween ?
21:21:08  <Phazorx> i kinda dont see how destination could be particualtr station
21:21:16  <Phazorx> so i though you imply "city"
21:21:18  <Bulb> The current proposal chooses among connected stations. So the number of passengers generated when you have just one other station connected will be the same as when you have large netwek.
21:21:31  <Phazorx> since in MP context station being target is very destructive to game play
21:21:32  <Bulb> Destination must be a particular station.
21:21:49  <Phazorx> hmm.. weird
21:22:04  <Phazorx> i dont see why they did it this way
21:22:17  <Bulb> Well, since the current proposal only selects among *connected* stations, there is no problem.
21:22:17  <Phazorx> what's wrong with selecting place with airport ?
21:22:55  <Phazorx> well it is a bit unrealistic on level of only having passengers to desired by company owner destinations
21:23:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> chances are, that celestar already has an own model for passenger destinations in mind
21:23:16  <Phazorx> rather than targeting players attention to where they want to go
21:23:32  <Phazorx> perhaps we can influence that model :)
21:24:15  <Bulb> I don't really know what Celestar has in mind and I hope it's something sensible. Unfortunately he does not seem to be making any progress.
21:25:20  <Bulb> On the other hand there is already a patch in the forum and it is IMHO not very good (neither the idea nor the patch itself)
21:26:51  <Bulb> There are passenger destinations in SimuTrans since it's start. They are done so, that a destination point is chosen randomly within city limits of any city and if station covering that point exists, passenger is generated and assigned that destination.
21:27:18  <Bulb> Downside of that is, that initially you have very few passengers, because most of them would want to go somewhere where you don't have connection yet.
21:27:51  <Patrick> passenger destinations should change depending on the links available
21:28:01  <Phazorx> that makes total sence in reality Bulb
21:28:02  <Patrick> if the only train in my town was to capital city, that's the one I'd take
21:28:08  <Bulb> The proposal by prissi (who is also simutrans developer) is to select from connected stations, which I fear is the other extreme.
21:28:18  <Patrick> passengers should be able to change :)
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21:28:38  <Bulb> Yes, passengers are able to change. The 'connected' property is transitive.
21:30:01  <Bulb> The problem is, that a station will generate the same number of passengers independently of how well it is connected. Which IMHO somewhat looses the point (though it still has the point of making feeder systems useful).
21:30:33  <Patrick> a catchment area is a reasonable approximation to life
21:31:07  <Patrick> let me deviate: in the game defcon, all vehicles have binary health. They're either alive or they're not. Weapons fire has a probability of death.
21:31:19  <Patrick> that's an approximation that makes coding much simpler, but the game is still approximately real
21:31:30  <Patrick> those are the sorts of simplifications we should try to make
21:31:57  <Bulb> So I would love to see something in between. Passengers would want to go to random place (not just station - so the more of map you cover, the more passengers you get), but closer destinations are more likely, so when you connect two nearby towns, you get reasonable amount of passengers.
21:32:44  <Bulb> And on the other hand it will make feeder to an airport less efficient in the end, because there will simply be few passengers who'd want to travel across the whole map.
21:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bulb: what you need is some kind of poisson-distribution, or similar
21:35:26  <Bulb> Yes, something like that.
21:36:14  <Bulb> So that you can get good amount of passengers with small network to get profit from it and more, but not too mamy with a large one.
21:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> a passenger should choose a random target tile, and then find the closest (connected) station
21:37:01  <Bulb> Yes. The title should be some that generates (fraction of) passengers, though. Which is hard.
21:37:27  <Phazorx> i tihnk different tyles should have different values then
21:38:00  <Phazorx> many people want to go empire states building or louve and lesss to middle of sahara
21:38:03  <Bulb> They do. It would reuse the probabilities a tile generates a passenger.
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21:38:16  <Phazorx> i see
21:38:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, ttdp makes some discrimination between tourists and passengers
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21:39:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> the first one should more likely make longer journeys
21:39:28  <Bulb> I was thinking that maybe it would be possible (with big rounding and such for efficiency, so the distribution would be something weird rather than poisson, but that would not matter) to calculate probabilities for the passenger to choose each station and the probability to fail to choose one and use that.
21:40:17  <Bulb> Eddi|zuHause2: In a sense that building has probability to generate a passenger and probability to generate tourist?
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21:40:36  <Bulb> And what would be the difference without destinations?
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21:41:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, if you want an efficiency approach, a station should rather store the connected stations with distance (travel time? price?)
21:42:06  <Bulb> Of course. That's not the main issue. The main issue is how to calculate the probability of the passenger not finding a station!
21:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> and a passenger would choose a station in catchment area, and choose a target from there, based on some random distribution
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21:43:32  <Bulb> The station (probably - it certainly could) cache the passenger generation speed, which would at the same time be the passenger accepting speed.
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21:47:51  <Bulb> However to find the chance that passenger would go to somewhere unconnected I need to know not only the total passenger generation speed (sum for all buildings on the map), but also their distribution in distance. Which I'd simply estimate by either approximating it as homogenous, or by summing per town and taking each town as being wholly in the same distance.
21:51:40  <RobertGrammig> which is the most elegant way to replace an airport? right now I manually select new targets for each aircraft individually which is a pain to do. is there a setting/grf to make that easier?
21:54:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> use shared orders?
21:56:21  <RobertGrammig> ok thats a nice concept didnt know about it
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21:57:13  <RobertGrammig> for my problem however I have lots of different destinations that are all served from my min airport and shared orders only slightly alleviate that problem
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21:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> on the airport, you can open a list of all aircraft that have it in the orders, you'll have no other choice than going through that list, until it is empty
21:59:53  <RobertGrammig> ok
22:02:08  <Biff> it should be some in-game scripting language
22:02:45  <Biff> for plane in aircrafts: plane.orders[0] = foo
22:03:45  <Patrick> mmm, python
22:03:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> there is the noai branch :)
22:03:56  <Biff> Ooh, python
22:04:02  <Biff> noai?
22:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> it ripped out any signs of the existing ai
22:05:02  *** Peakki [] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä]
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22:05:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> and implements a squirrel based api
22:05:07  <Biff> oh, why?
22:05:12  <Biff> squirrel based?
22:05:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> for future ai use
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22:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> <Biff> oh, why? <- because it sucks, and is not extensible(?)
22:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> extendable?
22:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> english is weird...
22:09:04  *** Thomas[NL] [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:10:38  <ln-> silence, this is an english channel.
22:11:35  <ln-> though not as famous as the other english channel.
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22:54:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> where would i tell english was weird if not in an english channel?
22:54:37  <Tefad> i know english is weird
22:56:12  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: #openttd.complaintsaboutweirdnessesofcertainlanguages
22:56:36  <ln-> damn, the name is too long.
22:56:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> err :p
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23:07:09  *** juancuka [] has joined #openttd
23:07:47  <juancuka> hi ?
23:07:54  <Patrick> mm?
23:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> the correct question would be "hä?"
23:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> actually, that question fits anywhere :p
23:09:19  <juancuka> :-S - Im new here
23:09:33  <juancuka> I've been reading a lot in your website
23:11:44  *** qfh [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:11:49  <juancuka> ...anyway, I want to learn more... I thought some1 here might help me with some questions
23:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> not me, i am going to bed
23:12:40  <juancuka> anyone else here ?
23:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> rarely, at this hour
23:13:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> most people are from europe
23:15:00  <juancuka> good to know
23:15:05  <juancuka> thanks anyway
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