Log for #openttd on 10th July 2007:
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00:10:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10495 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Add the Action 00 property handlers for Industries and Industry tiles
00:11:03  <eekee> oooh o.o
00:12:58  <Belugas> no... it will not allow newindustries grf to be loaded...
00:13:07  <Belugas> that's just another brick in the wall
00:13:07  <Sacro> Belugas: and i was just about to test
00:13:15  <Belugas> altough a big one ^_^
00:13:28  <Belugas> heheh
00:13:34  <Sacro> how much further?
00:13:59  <Belugas> still a lot, but with the help of Rubidium, that "lot" is getting "few"
00:14:09  <Belugas> he's doing an amazing job :D
00:14:18  <Sacro> he is good
00:14:30  <Sacro> can we keep him. can we!
00:15:44  <Belugas> :)
00:16:15  <Belugas> i'd say we should keep him for as long as he likes ;)
00:16:23  <Belugas> And i'm sure he likes it a lot :D
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00:59:17  <Belugas> ping: Sacro
00:59:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10496 /trunk/src/ (41 files in 3 dirs):
00:59:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: Replace all the windows for Industry building by a more flexible one.
00:59:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Thanks to Csaboka (from TTDPatch dev team) for his hints and original design
00:59:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: (which i've found while it was halfway done, so i could make it more compliant
00:59:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ;)). Don't expect it to be a carbon-copy though. A few differences can be
00:59:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: found here and there.
00:59:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Thanks to Rubidium for his helping hand. Hope you will like it as we do :)
00:59:35  <Sacro> Belugas: pong
00:59:44  <Belugas> ou can test this one ;)
00:59:53  <Sacro> ooh?
00:59:58  <Belugas> without newinduistries...
01:00:10  <Sacro> oh :(
01:00:13  <Belugas> heheh
01:00:33  <Belugas> i'm sure you'll like it
01:00:42  <Belugas> even without ;)
01:00:44  <Sacro> versionpkg is doing its stuff
01:01:18  <Belugas> i'm going to do the washing of the dishes
01:01:20  <Belugas> have fun
01:01:28  <Sacro> whats new?
01:01:35  <Sacro> whoah
01:01:44  <Sacro> i've never seen all those newgrf_* files before
01:04:03  <Smoovious> which files?
01:04:12  <Sacro>  newgrf_*
01:04:14  <Sacro> hmm
01:04:18  <Smoovious> ...
01:04:18  <Sacro> i don't see much difference
01:04:29  <Sacro> the build industry window is slightly alteredf
01:06:50  <NukeBuster> can i use floor() in openttd?
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01:07:29  <NukeBuster> i was trying but ended up with: smallmap_gui.cpp:854: fout: 'floor' was not declared in this scope
01:07:48  <Sacro> did you declare it?
01:08:33  <NukeBuster> isn,t that done in math.h?
01:08:46  <Sacro> in C maybe...
01:08:54  <glx> math.h is not include AFAIK
01:09:02  <glx> *included
01:09:13  <Sacro> NukeBuster: #include <cmath>
01:09:27  <NukeBuster> ah ok... theirs my problem...
01:09:33  <NukeBuster> thanks.
01:10:39  <Belugas> [21:06] <Sacro> the build industry window is slightly alteredf   <--- you call that slightly???  Completely redone, yes!
01:10:46  * Belugas sends glasses to Sacro
01:11:18  <Sacro> Belugas: i never really used it :(
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01:23:54  <NukeBuster> doxygen is still down? or did the address change?
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01:25:51  <Digitalfox> belugas, you last two commits are HUGE.. -so much new code :\ Nice work :)
01:28:21  <Belugas> thanks Digitalfox :)
01:28:35  <Belugas> Sacro, it's understandable , don't worry ;)
01:28:46  <Belugas> NukeBuster, what do you mean?
01:29:15  <Belugas> ho.... i see
01:29:23  <Belugas> indeed, it seems down
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01:38:17  <glx> it is empty :/
01:38:35  <Belugas> yeah
01:38:40  <Belugas> not down...
01:38:44  <Belugas> just empty
01:39:09  <glx> who stole the files???
01:41:25  <Belugas> looks like it has not recompiled
01:42:09  <NukeBuster> hmm i notice it a few days ago... and it is certainly handy for looking up functions and classes...
01:47:40  <NukeBuster> anyway i'm off to bed... night
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03:19:35  <Smoovious> how long does it take for waypoint names to dissapear now?
03:19:44  <Smoovious> when b eing d estroyed
03:29:18  <benc_> 30 days
03:31:10  <Smoovious> ok
03:31:17  <Smoovious> that explains it
03:31:23  <Smoovious> I got  days slowed way down
03:31:28  <Smoovious> :)
03:55:25  <benc_> is there an archive of pre-r1 source out there?
03:55:56  <benc_> always interesting to see how far an oss project has progressed
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06:19:08  <peter1138> Sionide is a specs tsar :o
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06:28:53  <Smoovious> czar
06:29:54  <peter1138> both valid spellings
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06:55:48  <ln->
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06:58:39  <peter1138> :o
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07:10:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10497 /trunk/src/ship_gui.cpp: -Fix (FS#1013,r8464): Ship max speed wrongly shown (benc)
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07:47:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10498 /trunk/ (config.lib src/network/network.cpp): -Fix [FS#1008]: remove inconsistency between a warning and the actual behaviour.
07:50:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10499 /extra/website/ (server_detail.php servers.php): [Website] -Fix: escape the characters in the revision string.
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08:27:01  <HMage> I love how MSVC reports STL errors:
08:27:47  <Noldo> templates make it so much interesting
08:30:47  <flex> fancy
08:31:58  <flex> as in msvc6 were you can get 1500 lines of warnings because your debugnames is more that 256 bytes long...
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08:58:56  <HMage> flex: I usually disable that warning, at least that's possible.
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09:46:20  <SmatZ> I cannot connect with rev10498M to rev10498 servers anymore, it makes problems with some testing :( how can I fake my revision in the easiest way?
09:47:01  <peter1138> you never could connect an M to a non-M
09:47:59  <Rubidium> SmatZ: vim objs/debug/rev.cpp
09:48:08  <Rubidium> or ./configure --revision=r10498
09:48:30  <ln-> peter1138: which is quite silly, because the M can be caused by something that doesn't affect on network play.
09:49:05  <peter1138> and so can r10497 to r10498
09:49:14  <ln-> naturally
09:49:20  <SmatZ> peter1138: I did test some patches on public server - maybe it was a long time ago, but I could connect
09:49:25  <SmatZ> Rubidium: thank you
09:50:50  <peter1138> so the rule is, and always will be, that the revision number should match exactly.
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10:05:49  <Brianetta> Any developer (not just the dev team) who modifies the game has the responsibility to check network compatibility for themselves, and to build the correct version number if they are certain that it works.
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10:40:00  <Sionide> peter1138...?
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10:42:48  <skidd13> What has happend to
10:46:20  <peter1138> it's b0rked
10:46:22  <peter1138> still
10:46:33  <skidd13> :(
10:48:23  <peter1138> Sionide, written proof
10:49:32  <skidd13> Where is the code to GetVehicle(...)?
10:49:41  <peter1138> it's in a macro
10:50:29  <skidd13> I ment which file.
10:51:20  <peter1138> oldpool.h
10:51:44  <peter1138> meant, btw.
10:51:52  <skidd13> thanks
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12:42:11  <dihedral> hello ladies :-)
12:42:30  <Sacro> hello dihedral ;)
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12:44:22  <eekee> lol
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13:07:34  <Chris82> hola :)
13:08:16  <dihedral> heyhey Chris82
13:12:40  <eekee> \o
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13:23:35  <Chris82> is there a cheat to give you lots of money for testing purposes?
13:23:36  <hylje> yes
13:24:32  <Chris82> and how do I use it?
13:24:44  <peter1138> ctrl-alt-c
13:24:50  <peter1138> same as all the other cheats
13:25:38  <Chris82> well I never used any cheats before :)
13:26:24  <Chris82> also I wanted to know how funding a bank works or if it works at all
13:26:38  <Chris82> whenever I try to fund a bank it tells me that the site is not suitable for a bank
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13:28:33  <Maedhros> you might have to attempt to build it on a house
13:28:42  <Maedhros> (although i just tried that and got an assert)
13:28:49  <peter1138> nice
13:31:11  <Chris82> well I have a 20k city here and more than enough money and literally tried to build it on any tile in or around the city
13:31:19  <Chris82> always tells me site unsuitable
13:31:24  <Chris82> building the other industries works fine
13:32:42  <dihedral> TrueBrain back yet?
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13:41:51  <peter1138> depends what you want
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13:54:13  <blathijs> peter1138: Was that an answer to dihedral's question? :-)
13:56:36  <peter1138> yes
13:58:32  <blathijs> :-)
14:00:59  <Belugas> dihedral, did you contacted CS's agency yet?
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14:10:32  <dihedral> Belugas: yes - sent them an email on Friday though i have not heard anything back from them yet
14:11:06  <dihedral> i shall give the 'guy' some time, just in case he aint at work or so... and perhaps give them another call next week
14:11:25  <blathijs> What are we asking CS?
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14:12:08  <dihedral> trying to find out who to contact about the copyright 'n such
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14:13:13  <Belugas> yeah, give it another approach, since Atari still does not answer....
14:13:16  <blathijs> dihedral: Weren't we contacting someone high up at Atari or something?
14:13:32  <Belugas> good going, dihedral
14:13:41  <dihedral> we were until they decided not to respond... again
14:13:48  <dihedral> thx
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14:20:06  <Eddi|zuHause> we should just sue someone :)
14:20:15  <blathijs> dihedral: Too bad. Good to hear things do keep rolling, still :-)
14:21:24  <Belugas> dihedral : our legal expert to be ;)
14:23:26  <blathijs> :-)
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14:25:39  <dihedral> well well
14:25:56  <ln-> huh, what's going on?
14:26:03  <dihedral> i just spoke to the legal guy (named 'guy') of CS agency
14:26:33  <dihedral> who said that CS was very aware of all the various projects around TTD
14:26:38  <dihedral> and not too amused by them
14:26:56  <blathijs> dihedral: You called or something?
14:27:01  <dihedral> yep
14:27:28  <dihedral> numerous emails i sent using a certain web client never got sent... so i called
14:27:42  <dihedral> and sure enough he never got my email
14:28:18  <dihedral> and guess what
14:28:33  <dihedral> OpenTTD is one of the projects they dont like but are fully aware of
14:29:25  * narth looks arround for any supprised faces....
14:29:28  <ln-> they = CS?
14:29:36  <dihedral> agency of CS = CS
14:29:42  <ln-> right
14:29:58  <dihedral> guy said that some of those projects get CS pretty upset
14:30:19  <blathijs> Did they ever say why?
14:30:26  <dihedral> yes
14:30:57  <dihedral> CS has a vision of what a game is supposed to be... and he aint chuffed when others come and play around with 'his vision'
14:31:27  <dihedral> and they are fully aware of the fact that some portion of reverse engeniering had to be done
14:31:28  <Eddi|zuHause> well, he would be free to come here and take influence :)
14:31:40  <peter1138> that's the stock answer indeed
14:31:45  <Sacro> would we actually give him commit rights?
14:31:54  <dihedral> lol
14:32:08  <narth> lol
14:32:09  <Belugas> dihedral, did he said if OTTD was breaking CS's vision?
14:32:17  <dihedral> no
14:32:26  <dihedral> he never stated anything THAT directly
14:32:34  <Belugas> so he did not gave any names
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14:33:00  <dihedral> he was not so happy when openttd was mentioned... or ttdpatch
14:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> he might very well mean the DBSet breaking he vision of the game being based on british trains :p
14:33:13  <Sacro> hehe
14:33:15  <Belugas> what else did you discussed?
14:33:23  <Sacro> does he give UKRS his stamp of approval
14:33:25  <Belugas> please, guys, stop the jokes...
14:33:33  <Belugas> this is srious stuff
14:33:51  <Belugas> dihedral, go on
14:33:53  <dihedral> he said i should stay away from any projects :-P
14:34:30  <dihedral> that CS/the agency would take legal actions if they thought it was fit to
14:34:52  <Belugas> did he leave any room of discussions?
14:34:58  <dihedral> i.e. if they found ottd breaching any of their client contracts
14:35:08  <dihedral> he was very friendly Belugas
14:35:16  <dihedral> most gratefull that i even called to ask
14:35:40  <Belugas> so he's open minded, ne would say?
14:35:42  <dihedral> but clearly stated that no way would CS release source code
14:35:53  <Sacro> he doesn't need to
14:35:53  <Belugas> nobody asked for that
14:36:12  <dihedral> i never asked for that either
14:36:14  <Gekko[PDA]> who's CS?
14:36:15  <ln-> besides the source code is asm
14:36:29  * glx slaps Gekko[PDA]
14:36:29  <Sacro> Gekko[PDA]: Chris Sawyer
14:36:29  <ln-> Gekko[PDA]: some guy who wrote some game back in the 90's
14:36:30  <Gekko[PDA]> oh
14:36:34  <Sacro>  /me slaps Gekko[PDA] too
14:36:36  <Gekko[PDA]> i know
14:36:46  <Gekko[PDA]> ddnt realise the acronym?
14:36:49  <Gekko[PDA]> .
14:37:01  <Belugas> dihedral, did you planed for another meeting?
14:37:11  <Sacro> Belugas: s/did/have/
14:37:18  <dihedral> if i have more questions i would call again :-)
14:37:42  <Sacro> dihedral: did you speak to him?
14:37:42  <dihedral> perhaps in 20 minutes? j/k
14:37:50  <dihedral> i spoke to Guy
14:38:03  <dihedral> the legal person of marjacq
14:38:03  <ln-> dihedral: so did you find out who is the copyright owner?
14:38:12  <Sacro> ln-: i don't think anybody knows that
14:38:14  <Belugas> that's a good quetin :)
14:38:18  <dihedral> Atari is
14:38:53  <dihedral> though atari or any body else never had enough license rights to make ttd free
14:38:57  <Sacro> zomg, Microprose got bought by Spectrum Holobyte
14:39:00  <Belugas> back to square one
14:39:09  <dihedral> nope
14:39:13  <Belugas> ho?
14:39:26  <dihedral> Belugas: marjacq / CS have the rights to release source or make freeware
14:39:45  <ln-> but not the graphics and sounds?
14:39:49  <Belugas> ok
14:40:00  <dihedral> and i mentioned that game data is not distributed with ottd
14:40:02  <Sacro> ln-: Simon B... something owns the music
14:40:09  <ln-> Sacro: i doubt that.
14:40:10  <peter1138> who cares about graphics and sound? that's on your TTD CD
14:40:15  <Gekko[PDA]> give him  and as case of beer for it:
14:40:20  <dihedral> but he said that ottd must have done some reverse engeniering which is illegal
14:40:42  <peter1138> so does ttdpatch :)
14:40:43  <Gekko[PDA]> he has no proof
14:40:47  <ln-> peter1138: tell me where to buy one, so i won't need to play without graphics and sounds anymore.
14:40:48  <dihedral> Gekko[PDA]: just shove an old sock down your throat
14:40:48  <Gekko[PDA]> >.>
14:40:55  <Sacro> Gekko[PDA]: its on the wikipedia
14:40:58  <Gekko[PDA]> never.
14:41:09  <Belugas> dihedral : suggestion ask him what would they consider a way to repay for that
14:41:11  <Gekko[PDA]> Sacro: everyone can edit wikilpedia
14:41:12  <Belugas> if ever
14:41:18  <peter1138> repay, heh
14:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it's on wikipedia, it must be true :p
14:41:25  <Belugas> well...
14:41:28  <ln-> Gekko[PDA]: ludde himself has said he has done reverse engineering.
14:41:36  <Belugas> lack of a better term...
14:41:39  <peter1138> ludde himself wasn't going to release it
14:41:43  <peter1138> it's all orudge's fault
14:41:46  *** Digitalfox [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox]]
14:41:53  <ln-> let's kick orudge then!1
14:41:55  <Gekko[PDA]> lol
14:42:10  <dihedral> he said we should write our own game
14:42:30  <dihedral> i already asked for his advice on what could be done
14:42:31  *** Digitalfox [] has joined #openttd
14:42:34  *** Digitalfox is now known as Digitalfox_Desktop
14:42:39  <ln-> that would have been a good idea...
14:43:01  <Sacro> but we have all seen the code
14:43:06  <Sacro> we'd need a white box team
14:43:17  <dihedral> Sacro: you would not
14:43:26  <Belugas> that's the only thing he said?
14:43:34  <Sacro> mmm
14:43:36  <orudge> Kicking me? How rude.
14:43:38  * Sacro pops out for a sandwich
14:43:58  <Gekko[PDA]> what can he do
14:44:02  <dihedral> Belugas: yes
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14:44:17  <Gekko[PDA]> "cease and desist bitches"
14:44:37  <dihedral> Gekko[PDA]: for starters you could shut up
14:44:42  <Gekko[PDA]> lol
14:44:49  * dihedral is not kidding
14:44:53  <Gekko[PDA]> lol
14:44:55  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*gekko@*] by peter1138
14:44:55  *** Gekko[PDA] was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [yes, shut up]
14:45:07  <ln-> it somehow keeps amazing me that in addition to cloning the functionality of TTD, ludde also cloned almost all the limitations of TTD.
14:45:33  <dihedral> very bad question + very bad though
14:45:36  <dihedral> :
14:45:55  <dihedral> could all you guys knowledge be bundled into a 'new' game?
14:46:00  <blathijs> 16:40 < dihedral> but he said that ottd must have done some reverse engeniering which is illegal <-- The idea was that it isn't, at least not where Ludde comes from
14:46:29  <blathijs> though IANAL
14:46:35  <dihedral> blathijs: world wide legal stuff
14:47:12  <ln-> peter1138: well done
14:47:31  <dihedral> How much effort would it be to write a complete new engine for the game?
14:47:44  <blathijs> We are probably doing that already
14:47:45  <blathijs> bit by bit
14:48:02  <narth> at a guess, based ont he roadmap on the wiki... about all the work between now and ver1.0?
14:48:19  <Belugas> immense, if asked from scratch.  ONly the network part, the pathfinding could be reused, i think
14:48:29  <dihedral> completely getting away from the look & feel of ttd
14:48:45  <De_Ghost> yes network overhaul!!
14:48:46  <Belugas> even harder, we would need to desing a new look and feel
14:48:48  <orudge> Well, in that case, we may as well go and work on Transport Empire and abandon OpenTTD, I guess
14:48:49  <peter1138> depends. might not be possible using existing code, as it's tainted.
14:49:00  <De_Ghost> yes new graphic
14:49:05  <De_Ghost> no more cpu rendering!!
14:49:06  <dihedral> orudge: no
14:49:07  <orudge> to be free of legal issues regarding OpenTTD code
14:49:14  <orudge> well
14:49:31  <dihedral> work on a new'ish thing
14:49:32  <orudge> I guess it depends on how much one views our current code as being a derivative of the original reverse engineering
14:49:33  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I'm not a lawyer, but if the graphics and sound are not part of openttd, because you still have to get them from original game ( so you still need to have the a legal copy ), and the code is so much changed from original "reverse engeniering", shouldn't this discussion been over.. Besides theres no money coming from openttd, it's open source...
14:49:34  <orudge> and so on
14:49:38  <dihedral> then dump current ottd stuff
14:49:42  <dihedral> then rename...
14:49:43  <dihedral> slighly
14:49:56  <De_Ghost> graphic can't umm
14:49:57  <orudge> it's still based "originally" on the code though, which tends to be the problem
14:49:58  <De_Ghost> what u call
14:49:59  <De_Ghost> owned
14:50:00  <orudge> from what I'm aware of.
14:50:04  <orudge> *as far as I'm aware
14:50:06  <peter1138> Digitalfox_Desktop: money has not a lot to do with copyright
14:50:22  <ln-> Digitalfox_Desktop: how much do you need to change OTTD code in order to avoid redistributing it under GPL?
14:50:41  <dihedral> Digitalfox_Desktop: by the looks of it CS is pretty unhappy - at least enough to have his agency go lecally
14:50:41  <peter1138> exactly
14:51:28  <Digitalfox_Desktop> dihedral: he is? But do you think a lawsuit could happen?
14:52:05  <dihedral> guy said "there are only so many procecutions that can take place in one year"
14:52:21  <orudge> the other question would be: lawsuits against who, exactly?
14:52:37  <dihedral> orudge: for one you as being the host
14:52:44  <orudge> well, I figured that
14:52:46  <orudge> but who else? :P
14:52:47  <dihedral> :-P
14:52:56  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Does CS still have the copyright over TTO/TTD or is it microprose that is now is Atari part or something like that?
14:52:57  <dihedral> not me - i am the 'good' guy :-D
14:53:00  <orudge> ie, OpenTTD has had many contributors over the years
14:53:19  <orudge> Ludde has apparently made a bob or two from his selling of uTorrent, maybe he can provide us with a legal fund ¬_¬
14:53:21  <ln-> if someone had just created a new game from scratch, *inspired* by TTD, with free graphics, it could still be very popular and none of these discussions would be necessary... but well, too late.
14:53:23  <dihedral> orudge: you would start with the one doing revers engeniering
14:53:28  <alex_> reverse enginnering is huge in todays business
14:53:31  <orudge> Indeed
14:53:33  <alex_> just look at AMD on intel
14:53:53  <orudge> ln-: people tried doing that several times
14:53:55  <Maedhros> i really doubt that's reverse engineering
14:53:57  <orudge> none of the projects got very far
14:53:58  <peter1138> nobody's doing reverse engineering on ottd anymore
14:54:04  <peter1138> (if they ever did, heh)
14:54:16  <alex_> Maedhros, in the '80's it was
14:54:23  <peter1138> dihedral: did you mention ttdpatch at all?
14:54:25  <Maedhros> ah, well ;)
14:54:25  <orudge> People don't really want a game that plays "like" TTD, they want a game that -is- TTD
14:54:27  <orudge> or so it seems.
14:54:31  <dihedral> yes
14:54:53  <dihedral> though openttd seemd to bring a slighly nastier reaction on the other end of the phone
14:54:55  <dihedral> :-)
14:54:55  <ln-> orudge: and the fact that those attempts failed in a way proves that the code taken from TTD was and still is essential to OTTD.
14:55:04  <dihedral> nasty question to all of you
14:55:06  <De_Ghost>  when is  the road and tram super tool coming
14:55:18  <De_Ghost> the one that the rail ahave
14:55:25  <dihedral> what would you guys be prepared to give up to continue work on a great game
14:55:27  <De_Ghost> where you can lay muti direction with 1  tool
14:55:45  <De_Ghost> nothing? why do they have to give up anything
14:55:48  <De_Ghost> it's a hobby
14:55:49  <De_Ghost> lol
14:56:14  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I don't know, but i feel a lawsuit won't happen.. It's a game with 13 years, even before windows 95 was on the stores... But since CS is suing Atari for some money on Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 he feels is his money, don't know..
14:56:50  <Maedhros> dihedral: what sort of thing are you thinking with regard to giving up?
14:56:56  <dihedral> Digitalfox_Desktop: appart from the lawsuit stuff - just to get CS and marjacq happy
14:56:57  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Suing for a game with 13 years would be a historic thing in video games
14:57:11  <orudge> Well, the thing is with that, Digitalfox_Desktop - with RCT, Atari do owe him money, and Atari do have money
14:57:13  <Digitalfox_Desktop> dihedral: yeah :)
14:57:17  <orudge> and are much easier to "target"
14:57:32  <orudge> a bunch of open source developers scattered across the world are somewhat harder to track down
14:57:38  <orudge> and probably have a lot less to "give"
14:57:40  <dihedral> Maedhros: dumping ottd code and starting from scratch
14:58:02  <Maedhros> to be honest, i wouldn't be completely averse to it
14:58:16  <ln-> we should remember that if they choose to sue someone, that "someone" could be e.g. any one of the devs. i don't think it is necessary to sue the one who started the whole thing, or has been in lead, why couldn't they just pick someone.
14:58:37  <Maedhros> but would any of us be able to do anything like that without someone being able to claim it's based in part on openttd?
14:58:38  <dihedral> orudge: stoping progress on any ttd development (let it pe ~Patch or Open~)
14:58:43  <dihedral> that is all they would want
14:59:51  <Digitalfox_Desktop> But my question is, if things like newindustries in openttd have new code, that have nothing to do with the way ttd was coded, and some much things have a different implementation and design on code, what comparisons could be made besides GUI?? Is there a way to check code for duplication?
15:00:03  <orudge> well
15:00:12  <Maedhros> newindustries uses parts of the original code
15:00:12  <Digitalfox_Desktop> And the code language is also differnt
15:00:17  <Maedhros> and is thus based on ttd
15:00:18  <dihedral> Digitalfox_Desktop: it's changing CS's 'vision'
15:00:35  <orudge> I guess it's partially made more difficult by the fact we don't have the first ~1000 SVN revisions or so, although archives of v0.1 etc are still available - which I believe still contain the original IDA scripts used to help in the disassembly
15:00:50  <Digitalfox_Desktop> hum.. ok..
15:01:05  <orudge> and various older routines do look fairly obviously copied when compared to the TTD originals
15:01:16  <dihedral> dumping all releases and releasing /trunk with own graphics would be a start
15:01:18  <orudge> (something Oskar noticed when he first looked through the code, hence his not wanting to get involved)
15:01:22  <Maedhros> what, like the unkxx variables? ;)
15:01:45  <Belugas> and the numerous goto statememts
15:02:23  <Maedhros> dihedral: but would that be enough? we don't distribute the graphics anyway
15:02:24  <orudge> The thing is, of course, we don't know that a lawsuit is coming. It's "possible", but if so, why hasn't it happened already? If OpenTTD were to start charging or something for use, that may be a different story.
15:02:38  <orudge> hmm
15:02:51  <Digitalfox_Desktop> But would it be possible besides the tremendous work, to in c(++) recreate openttd with new code and still looking like ttd??
15:02:52  <Maedhros> *cough* esoftinteractive *cough*
15:03:09  <orudge> Well, they're not related to us, as such
15:03:11  <Belugas> well... now, they know we know thier position
15:03:13  <dihedral> orudge: guy said that if he found one of the projects imposing on one of their clients contracts... then
15:03:21  <orudge> Hmm.
15:03:24  <Maedhros> which clients, and what contracts?
15:03:41  <dihedral> Belugas: they know i know their position
15:03:57  <Belugas> do they know you are our speaker on this case?
15:03:58  <orudge> Digitalfox_Desktop: it'd be possible, but officially, you'd likely want it to be written by developers who have no knowledge of the OpenTTD source
15:03:59  <ln-> orudge: if it honestly is about 'vision', then originally OTTD was not far away from the vision, but is getting farther away, and may reach the limit of tolerance..
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15:04:06  <orudge> for fear of reintroducing "stolen code" as it were
15:04:21  <orudge> eg, look at ReactOS and allegations of use of reverse engineered/stolen Microsoft code
15:04:31  <orudge> and the fact they then had to perform a complete source audit and suchlike
15:04:43  <dihedral> i personally would be pretty happy if i could give those guys another call and be able to tell them that ottd was going to put effort into writing something of their own
15:04:44  <De_Ghost> you know what
15:04:48  <De_Ghost> everything is patented
15:04:55  <De_Ghost> you know how company avoid lawsuit
15:05:04  <De_Ghost> they tell their engineer  not to look at patents
15:05:18  <De_Ghost> because if you are looking
15:05:22  <Maedhros> that's not a solution
15:05:30  <ln-> don't mess patents with this discussion.
15:05:30  <De_Ghost> every tech u have is a patent infrigment
15:05:38  <dihedral> Maedhros: you mean me or De_Ghost
15:05:38  <De_Ghost> and the patent offce is a mess
15:05:45  <Belugas> dihedral, personnaly, i would say this would be the last step.  I would rather see if there is anything that can be done in between NOTHING and SCRAP it all
15:05:47  <Maedhros> dihedral: i meant De_Ghost, sorry :)
15:05:51  <ln-> De_Ghost: this whole thing has nothing to do with patents.
15:06:02  <De_Ghost> ehhh
15:06:09  <De_Ghost> i only read soemthing about that
15:06:11  <De_Ghost> lalwalwl
15:06:19  <dihedral> De_Ghost: have another game of 0.5.3-RC2
15:06:22  <De_Ghost> what is happening?
15:06:23  <dihedral> :-)
15:06:28  <De_Ghost> :D
15:06:33  <dihedral> and enjoy the game
15:06:39  <De_Ghost> someone is sueing openttd?
15:06:40  <dihedral> deeeep down
15:06:53  <dihedral> breath in the sand in a desert game
15:06:59  <dihedral> let it make you cough
15:06:59  <orudge> De_Ghost: not as such.
15:07:04  <orudge> but potentially it may happen
15:07:07  <orudge> as people have basically known all the time
15:07:11  <dihedral> Belugas: what is 'between'
15:07:25  <De_Ghost> ahhh whoes gonna sue u
15:07:29  <ln-> could someone kick De_Ghost, please, because he seems to be lost but eager to talk.
15:07:35  <De_Ghost> ttd is not even worth anything
15:07:36  <Belugas> don't know yet.  But i think it would be up to them to tell.
15:07:45  <Belugas> Some form of recognition...
15:07:47  <Belugas> anything
15:07:50  <Belugas> like..
15:07:51  <dihedral> Belugas: i could call briefly again
15:07:51  <skidd13> Here in germany it is allowed to reverse engenieer software if this is needed to be able for correct usage of the software. But only if the original author does not provide support for the problem. So you have no problem with OpenTTD in Germany.
15:08:05  <dihedral> skidd13: NOT TRUE
15:08:07  <orudge> skidd13: hmm, Oskar doesn't appear to agree with that
15:08:23  <orudge> Oskar doesn't want to be involved with OpenTTD in any way due to the strictness of German copyright laws, apparently
15:08:25  <Belugas> we've worked on the project for so long, there is such a big followup, it would be a shame to let it go completely
15:08:42  *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
15:08:43  <dihedral> Belugas: migrating would let others follow
15:08:46  *** mikl [] has quit [Quit: the end, all that matters is your relation with God.]
15:09:14  <dihedral> letting OpenTTD live until a new playable something is there
15:09:22  <Belugas> basically, it is false.  People do not follow devs, they follow an environnement
15:09:32  <dihedral> the biggest thing in my eyes would be that you guys do the development together
15:09:36  <ln-> may I remind about one thing that is most certainly copyrighted material and is distributed with OTTD; all the text strings.
15:09:49  <dihedral> with all knowledge you have been able to gather in the progress of OpenTTD
15:09:55  <skidd13> dihedral: check the UrHG. Cause software is protected by the UrHG!
15:10:42  <dihedral> skidd13: i live in germany and i have had issues with companies before
15:11:22  <skidd13> Algorithms are treated diffrent!
15:11:24  <dihedral> there is a reason why 'closed source' is 'closed' and why penalties are so high
15:12:27  <dihedral> ottd is a release of somthing that nobody here ever owned
15:12:49  <dihedral> i personally can understand if CS frowns upon it
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15:13:45  <dihedral> Belugas: if became a redirect to something new - they would follow
15:14:14  <dihedral> if they were introduced with forum entries and ottd news entries to the topics
15:14:51  <dihedral> 'new' in this case does not mean 'different game style'
15:15:00  <ln-> what would you people say if CS took OTTD source, modified it and released a multi-platform commercial game?
15:15:08  <dihedral> just means 'your game, your code'
15:15:21  <ln-> dihedral: (yeah, i personally agree)
15:15:25  <dihedral> and a happy CS
15:15:53  <alex_> soooooooooooo
15:15:56  <dihedral> ^ sung in the melody of 'we wish you a merry x-mas'... 'and a happy new year'
15:15:57  <alex_> openttd being sued?
15:16:07  <dihedral> nope
15:16:10  <alex_> why not?
15:16:15  <alex_> microsoft sues all
15:16:18  <dihedral> why should they
15:16:50  <alex_> cause, its microsoft
15:16:54  <alex_> :)
15:17:01  <dihedral> Belugas: what if i gave marjacq a call saying that you guys are aware of the call i made and thinking of what the way forward could be?
15:17:18  <orudge> I would suggest probably best not to, personally.
15:17:23  <orudge> in that, well
15:17:25  <dihedral> that would make them happy and would attleast move their attention away
15:17:53  <peter1138> there was no attention before you stuck your nose in :p
15:17:59  <orudge> I guess we don't want to "incriminate" outselves in a way by admitting stuff. Also, perhaps best to figure out what we actually want to do :P
15:18:05  <dihedral> peter1138: wrong
15:18:12  <orudge> we didn't know of it, so it didn't exist ¬_¬
15:18:21  <dihedral> guy was well aware of ottd when i spoke to him
15:19:19  <blathijs> Bah, gotta go. Will have to read back for the rest of this discussion later :-)
15:19:27  <dihedral> cu
15:19:54  <blathijs> dihedral: On the subject of calling them again, I don't think it will ever be a viable option to create a "Clean OpenTTD" or something like that
15:20:37  <dihedral> sure it would not be a OpenTTD
15:20:46  <blathijs> dihedral: So, it's probably not any good suggesting anything like that
15:20:51  <dihedral> but it none the less could remain a transport something
15:20:54  <peter1138> you can always go play simutrans...
15:21:01  <peter1138> that's OS now
15:21:09  <peter1138> or at least, the source is available
15:21:23  <alex_> peter1138, make the server browser window bigger please :)
15:21:26  <dihedral> how similar is simutrans?
15:21:30  <alex_> when you click on find servers
15:21:33  <peter1138> alex_: shut up
15:21:33  <alex_> all the names are cramped
15:21:54  <dihedral> because taking their code and making /trunk like like it derived from simutrans would be an idea :-P
15:21:56  <alex_> peter1138, not possible?
15:22:15  <Maedhros> alex_: possible, but completely irrelevant to the current discussion
15:22:18  <dihedral> *look like
15:23:01  <alex_> Maedhros, oh the conversation that i dont care about? :)
15:23:12  <alex_> sorry.
15:23:12  <ln-> simutrans doesn't advertise being open source, just says freeware.
15:23:19  <narth> alex_: post it as a feature to
15:23:24  <orudge> alex_: also, demanding that someone do something probably isn't the best way of getting it done :>
15:23:41  <Rubidium> it's the best way to NOT get it done ;)
15:23:46  <alex_> true, i apologize peter1138
15:24:05  <alex_> and narth, and orudge, and Maedhros
15:24:33  *** narth is now known as narthollis
15:26:08  <dihedral> any thoughts sprouting or are you guys in some dev discussion elsewhere?
15:26:43  <De_Ghost> %password
15:26:50  <De_Ghost> oops wrong windo
15:27:25  <SpComb> dihedral: out of interest - are you actually a lawyer?
15:27:35  <dihedral> nope
15:27:36  *** skidd13 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:27:45  *** skidd14 [] has joined #openttd
15:27:49  <skidd14> I worked a bit on Zojj's performance meter patch. Suggestions or comments to it's code? ->
15:28:00  *** skidd14 is now known as Skidd13
15:32:03  <De_Ghost> performance meter?
15:33:48  <Skidd13>
15:34:16  <SmatZ> it looks nice :)
15:36:13  <Skidd13> SmatZ: Since you are one of those mad ;) optimisation guy's are 10 seconds timed measurement enought?
15:36:31  <Skidd13> enought -> enough
15:37:39  * Sacro returns
15:37:47  <Belugas> so the question is : what should be done now
15:37:47  <SmatZ> Skidd13: every percent counts :)
15:37:49  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Jesus... Skidd13 that topic has dates all mixed in replys..
15:38:22  <Belugas> go forward ignoring the risks, close the shop, start from scratch or find an agreement
15:38:23  *** Ailure [Gamefreak@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:38:38  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Skidd13: My firefox is going crazy
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15:39:33  <orudge> Belugas: I would probably suggest A) - so much work has been put in that B) would seem rather a shame. C) would end up dying like the other projects and D) would be nigh on impossible. Of course, if a lawsuit then comes along in a year or two, B) may begin to look attractive.
15:40:38  <Skidd13> Digitalfox_Desktop: Not here but I've also problems with the I-NET connetion here ATM... Time to reconnect the router... BRB
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15:40:52  <De_Ghost> new engin!!!!
15:40:59  <De_Ghost> no more cpu graphic!!1
15:41:11  <De_Ghost> death to spirites!!
15:41:22  <Belugas> so, dihedral, let say you don't callback right  now, let us think about it.
15:41:33  <dihedral> Belugas: sure :-)
15:41:36  <ln-> hmm, do you think distributing the graphics with OTTD would really affect the probability of a lawsuit?
15:41:53  <Digitalfox_Desktop> IF and again IF  a lawsuit could be made against openttd, wouldn't it go to ludde? Since he started it ?
15:42:03  <dihedral> ln-: the fact that CS aint happy and marjacq know openttd is enough
15:42:12  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*De_Ghost@*] by peter1138
15:42:12  *** De_Ghost was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [slipped]
15:42:16  <dihedral> that 'guy' guy was pretty bright
15:42:56  <orudge> [16:41:37] <ln-> hmm, do you think distributing the graphics with OTTD would really affect the probability of a lawsuit? <-- I imagine it might
15:43:02  <Sacro> who is marjacq?
15:43:07  <orudge> Sacro: Chris Sawyer's agency
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15:43:13  <dihedral> it sounded like these projects were topic over at marjacq more than once
15:43:38  <Sacro> well perhaps someone should arrange a meeting of one or two of our devs, and one or two of their guys
15:44:15  <dihedral> Sacro: i think that could end up badly
15:44:50  <orudge> Indeed
15:44:51  <ln-> no sleep and all TTD multiplayer?
15:44:53  <Sacro> dihedral: yes, but surely if its gonna kick off, then rather sooner than later
15:44:58  <orudge> Sacro: well
15:45:07  <orudge> I would think it's better we don't do anything (more) to incriminate ourselves
15:45:19  <orudge> such as going up to them and admitting "yeah, it's reversed engineered, what do you want to do about it?"
15:45:29  <orudge> if they decide to follow through in the future, then, well, that will have to be dealt with
15:45:44  <SmatZ> skidd13: the 'Current ticks' I get 30-220 ticks/s, Average is 24.0
15:45:49  <orudge> as long as we don't do anything stupid such as include the graphics with the game, or whatever, then it's quite possible they may let things go
15:45:55  <orudge> it's a risk, perhaps
15:46:00  <SpComb> have there been some recent developments in terms of OpenTTD's legal status that I've missed out on? I'm sure CS has been aware of OpenTTD and such for ages (he commented on it in an interview once), and not really expressed any gratitude
15:46:02  <orudge> but the other alternative appears to be to abandon OpenTTD completely
15:46:11  <ln-> orudge: the text strings of the original game are included in OpenTTD.
15:46:18  <orudge> ln-: as you mentioned earlier, indeed
15:46:43  <Biff> hmm, 0.5.2 gets a failed assertion
15:47:07  <skidd13> SmatZ: Average is the overall value.
15:47:11  <orudge> SpComb: not that I'm aware of
15:47:18  <SmatZ> skidd13: the About row is not displayed under the '?' button
15:47:22  <orudge> Chris Sawyer has never publically expressed an opinion on OpenTTD
15:47:34  <orudge> today's information is what we've found out now via Marjacq
15:48:52  <dihedral> just imagine following for me:
15:48:59  <skidd13> SmatZ: Oh... I'll look where I've missed to raise the index.
15:49:17  <dihedral> openttd halts, devs appologize to marjacq and CS and build a game of their own
15:49:54  <dihedral> explaining that imposing on CS's vision to the game was never ment to be 'distorted'
15:50:05  <orudge> is that following a lawsuit, or as a hypothetical "immediate" thing?
15:50:25  <dihedral> orudge: before lawsuite, not immediate :-D
15:51:13  <dihedral> perhaps an imediate appology and informing of planned actions would give more time
15:51:48  <alex_> or anyone from the openttd community could call marjacq and talk to them about it :)
15:51:50  <orudge> The thing is, Marjacq/CS haven't officially contacted us saying they're not happy. They say a lawsuit may be a possibility in the future. But they haven't said "we want you to stop" or anything, they say that Chris Sawyer isn't "amused" by it
15:52:00  <dihedral> alex_: i have
15:52:23  <dihedral> amused was my word
15:52:30  <orudge> What was it he said on the phone, then?
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15:52:49  <dihedral> rather ennoyed
15:53:05  <dihedral> something along that line
15:53:20  <orudge> maybe it's just me, but it seems like an awful shame to throw away all this work. We've known since day 1 that there may be legal ramifications - dig up the old discussions on the forum. My personal inclination would be to carry on as we have, until someone actually tells us to stop, or something else happens (eg, Zernebok takes over the world and makes a hostile takeover of Marjacq/CS Software Development/Atari/whoever :P)
15:53:25  <orudge> Hnmn
15:53:27  <alex_> hmm and the only thing openttd uses from the oringinal is the grpahics?
15:53:32  <orudge> And the sound
15:53:37  <orudge> and the original gameplay
15:53:44  <orudge> (originally derived by reverse engineering)
15:54:00  <alex_> hacking though assembly code?
15:54:05  <orudge> basically
15:54:06  <alex_> throught*
15:54:08  <alex_> -t
15:54:10  <dihedral> orudge: CS is thanked for a good game in the readme
15:54:12  <alex_> wow, thats rough
15:54:32  <alex_> dihedral, lol like that makes up for it
15:54:34  <dihedral> now if CS aint happy about the game, why thank him
15:54:38  <dihedral> why not make him happy
15:54:40  <Sacro> imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
15:54:54  <dihedral> lol
15:55:17  <dihedral> a game that is inspired by ttd can show thanks to CS too
15:55:48  <dihedral> besides - it only has to be migrated far enough to make it clear - this is a own creation now
15:55:53  <ln-> it's a pity CS's Locomotion was what it was.
15:55:58  <dihedral> all features can be used
15:56:00  <Sacro> i used to love Microprose
15:56:07  <Maedhros> dihedral: err, do you know how much effort that would take?
15:56:09  <Sacro> they brought me Transport Tycoon and GP2
15:56:18  <dihedral> Maedhros: unfort - yes
15:56:29  <peter1138> do you also know what "derived" means?
15:56:40  <orudge> dihedral: and you're aware that every previous attempt to do this has failed? :>
15:56:54  <orudge> basically, as far as I'm concerned, we can carry on, or we can stop. There's not really another option
15:56:56  <dihedral> giving up?
15:56:58  <orudge> unless there's some sort of motivation
15:57:01  <Sacro> i don't recall any
15:57:07  <orudge> Sacro: any what?
15:57:10  <orudge> Transport Empire?
15:57:10  <orudge> TT2?
15:57:11  <orudge> TTU?
15:57:12  <orudge> etc
15:57:19  <Sacro> oh... yeah
15:57:58  <dihedral> my motivation would be having a public statement by CS and seeing them being grateful that openttd devs understand CS
15:58:27  <dihedral> and that openttd honores CS work and oppinion and feelings
15:59:00  <orudge> That may be your motivation, but will it be enough of a motivation for everyone else?
15:59:17  <orudge> especially considering that losing two years of work would probably be quite a significant "demotivation", if there's such a word :p
15:59:26  <dihedral> i dont know - i just hope there is something to make all happy
15:59:42  <dihedral> orudge: you would not have to 'lose' work as such
15:59:50  <orudge> Well
16:00:01  <dihedral> you need a new engine
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16:00:09  <dihedral> you need new graphics + sounds
16:00:12  <orudge> One could argue that even the "new" code in OpenTTD is, legally-speaking, "tainted"
16:00:20  <orudge> because it's still built on those core foundations
16:00:26  <orudge> that were laid by Ludde from his reverse engineering
16:00:35  <dihedral> one could talk to marjacq about it
16:00:50  <Sacro> even if you upgrade to elrails, its still the same line underneath :(
16:01:09  <Belugas> i would rather envision someting like a good talk indeed...
16:01:17  <ln-> dihedral: i'm afraid you think OTTD code is much more modular than it really is; i don't think it would be easy just to plug in a new engine without changing a lot of code all around the project.
16:01:27  <orudge> I fear such a talk would not end up being favourable for us, however.
16:01:37  <dihedral> ln-: that would be the aim
16:02:01  <dihedral> orudge: depends what 'favourable for us' means
16:02:48  <orudge> considering Chris Sawyer is not generally a fan of such projects, even if they are technically independent, would he be happy even if we reconstructed a new game that just happened to be very similar to TTD?
16:03:46  <dihedral> marjacq is aware of the fact that reverse engeneering was done - so i believe it would be fine
16:03:48  *** Mucht_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:04:28  <dihedral> they see their clients contract at first place, protecting their work
16:05:21  <dihedral> guy was most thankful for me asking and checking what they / their clients think
16:05:27  <Sacro> Guy Herbert
16:05:27  <Sacro> Has a background in publishing, small company finance, and law. Currently works in a wide range of industries dealing with intellectual property, and has provided Marjacq and its clients with advice on contractual and financial issues since 1993.
16:05:37  <orudge> I was just reading that, Sacro
16:05:41  <orudge> and just about to paste that
16:05:42  <orudge> D:
16:05:48  <orudge> stop stealing my brainwaves
16:05:50  <Sacro> hehe :p
16:05:56  <orudge> I even had it highlighted!
16:06:08  <alex_> we can debate this for hours, lets just solve it when the time comes
16:06:14  <alex_> if we goto court, ill hand over my 
16:06:40  <dihedral> alex_: not helpful
16:06:56  <alex_> dihedral, ok, ok, 
16:07:45  <alex_> CS + marjacq coming down on openttd would only put the project underground
16:08:47  <orudge> Nevertheless, we have no indication that that /will/ happen. It /may/ happen, but that's always been a risk. If people want to create a new "clean" project, then that's fair, but even then, one could argue that if they've been involved with OpenTTD, they could still be "tainting" the code (again, see the ReactOS/Microsoft, and FreeDOS/MS-DOS issues in the past)
16:08:58  <dihedral> alex_: turning around now and informing CS + marjacq now would though in return flood the projects + devs with thanks
16:09:35  <orudge> or, if people keep bothering them, it may motivate them to shut us down properly ;>
16:09:45  <Sacro> if we restart, we might have to drop a lot of the main devvs
16:09:57  <dihedral> and why would that be
16:10:04  <orudge> "If people want to create a new "clean" project, then that's fair, but even then, one could argue that if they've been involved with OpenTTD, they could still be "tainting" the code (again, see the ReactOS/Microsoft, and FreeDOS/MS-DOS issues in the past)"
16:10:07  <orudge> for instance
16:10:09  <orudge> with ReactOS
16:10:15  <orudge> there were some developers who had seen the leaked Windows 2000 code
16:10:23  <orudge> and used their knowledge to implement some internal functions
16:10:34  <orudge> this provoked a variety of legal issues
16:10:56  <alex_> i dont think CS would go that far
16:11:01  <orudge> Something similar happened with FreeDOS, where someone had seen some MS-DOS source code, and used his knowledge of it to reimplement the same functions in FreeDOS
16:11:14  <alex_> i mean openttd has been going on for ages already, if CS wanted to come down on openttd i tihnk he wouldve done it aslreay
16:11:15  <dihedral> orudge: if any progress was done after communicating it with marjacq i do not think this would have to be the case
16:11:18  <alex_> alreadY*
16:11:21  <orudge> basically, if developers here have knowledge of the internals of TTD, and reimplement certain internals in similar manners, then it may prove problematic
16:12:00  <orudge> dihedral: you do appear to be assuming that Marjacq would be be "happy" if we were to admit such things to them. I'm not so sure it'd be the case... they may appreciate it, but it doesn't mean they're going to condone it any more than they do now
16:12:17  <orudge> I also found Chris Sawyer's comment in the Locomotion manual interesting
16:12:31  <dihedral> which was?
16:12:42  <orudge> where he said he finds the public's modifications and so on interesting (can't recall the exact words), but can't condone them for legal reasons
16:12:53  <orudge> seemed to be in conflict with some prior views of his
16:12:57  <orudge> (and indeed what Marjacq said)
16:14:14  <dihedral> what do you want - openttd and people watching the progress in hope to halt development, or the devs of openttd and possibly a thankful CS
16:14:33  <dihedral> who knows
16:14:54  <dihedral> perhaps the results of that could become something even better than what is there now
16:15:38  <orudge> Well, my opinion again, but it sounds like out of the three or four potential options, three of them basically involve abandoning OpenTTD as it is now. Some users may be prepared to do that, it's not something I personally would want, even if there are potential legal challenges
16:16:07  <orudge> Of course, that's just my opinion
16:16:39  <dihedral> openttd is great - i would not want that to vanish - but when i come to think about it - what makes openttd great are the people doing work on it
16:17:49  <alex_> imk sure the revenue income of ttd stopped a long time ago for CS
16:18:03  <alex_> now, it maybe starting back up agian with openttd
16:18:10  <alex_> maybe CS is making money off openttd
16:18:11  <Sacro> well... i doubt it
16:18:16  <Sacro> nobody is still seeling TTD
16:18:16  <orudge> It'd help if they rereleased TTD...
16:18:19  <orudge> although, then
16:18:26  <orudge> you may argue that OpenTTD is partially in competition with TTD
16:18:29  <dihedral> orudge: released as what
16:18:29  <alex_> could be
16:18:34  <orudge> although, yes, it needs the data files as present
16:18:37  <orudge> dihedral: for purchase
16:18:52  <orudge> ie, one cannot very easily go out and buy TTD
16:18:55  <Sacro> surely when we start to use our own data files, his chance of making money gets less?
16:18:59  <orudge> Sacro: yes
16:19:11  <orudge> based on the assumption that people who use openttd buy the game
16:19:12  <orudge> some do
16:19:13  <orudge> many don't
16:19:20  <alex_> couldnt he just take all the openttd code?
16:19:22  <dihedral> i think their main point is that openttd stole CS's work
16:19:36  <alex_> i mean its opensource, but he could take it, shut down the project, and sell it?
16:19:45  <dihedral> he had an idea with the game and he seemd happy with it
16:20:13  <dihedral> when openttd came along he saw HIS work 'vandalized'
16:20:16  <orudge> alex_: not as such
16:20:29  <Sacro> we,,, extended it
16:20:33  <dihedral> same with any other project based on his work
16:20:34  <orudge> besides, it'd be nigh on impossible to eradicate OpenTTD from the Internet
16:20:55  <dihedral> orudge: beside the point :-)
16:21:03  <orudge> they could attempt to stop official development
16:21:03  <Belugas> they said the same about Napster...
16:21:10  <orudge> but somebody else could take the code and carry on working on it
16:21:14  <orudge> they'd then have to mount a new lawsuit on them
16:21:14  <orudge> and so on
16:21:19  <peter1138> napster was centralised, heh
16:21:22  <orudge> they'd never manage to get rid of it completely
16:22:02  <orudge> the other thing is, OK, they could mount a legal challenge, but unless any of us happen to have a large bank balance, they're probably not going to get very much out of it
16:22:14  <orudge> would it be worth the costs to mount lawsuits in various countries and so on?
16:22:16  <dihedral> what do you want to do - what is right, and makes the author happy, and perhaps honor his work? or stick to you want to hold on to
16:22:42  <dihedral> it is not about money
16:22:53  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Well until some officially statement is made by CS or his agency, the project openttd should keep going normally :)
16:23:00  <orudge> dihedral: personally, the latter. I'm sure everyone here does appreciate Chris Sawyer's work immenseley, and if it weren't for him we wouldn't be here. Many do disagree with his notion that his game in itself is "perfect" and shouldn't be tampered with
16:23:01  <orudge> and so on.
16:23:05  <orudge> Digitalfox_Desktop: agreed
16:23:20  <orudge> OpenTTD may not be Chris Sawyer's "vision"
16:23:24  <orudge> and OK, he may not like it
16:23:31  <Sacro> actually, i was upset when i found out how much tampering he'd done with TTO to get TTD
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16:23:41  <orudge> but in a way, it's a tribute to him that there are many people still playing his games
16:23:49  *** SpBot [] has joined #openttd
16:23:50  <orudge> and still enjoying his ideas and so on
16:23:56  <Sacro> 11 years on?
16:23:57  <Sacro> 12?
16:24:09  <orudge> If TTDPatch and OpenTTD weren't around, it's a fair bet that TTD wouldn't have half the fans it does today
16:24:13  <orudge> if only because the game couldn't be played on XP
16:24:32  <Sacro> i have TTO working on dosbox
16:24:43  <orudge> Sacro: yes, but average joe doesn't know about dosbox
16:24:56  <orudge> whereas someone can probably google "transport tycoon" and find openttd a bit easier than figuring out how to set up a dos emulator :p
16:25:02  <Sacro> no, but those who grew up with DOS will
16:25:27  <Digitalfox_Desktop> For me this says everything: "No, neither the DOS version nor the Win95  version will run under Windows 2000 or XP. The changes required for Transport Tycoon Deluxe Win95 to run under Windows 2000/XP are probably minimal, but it's unlikely it will ever be updated unless the time and costs can be justified by potential sales and the willingness of the publisher to market an updated version."...
16:25:29  <Digitalfox_Desktop> ...So he only cares if a publisher demonstrates interest in a new publishing of TTD ...
16:25:47  <Sacro> potential sales?
16:25:59  <Sacro> has he not seen how many copies of OpenTTD and TTDPatch have been downloaded?
16:26:06  <orudge> and that's also my point about legal action. Legal action is expensive. If he can't even be bothered to market a new version, I doubt he's going to be all that bothered about mounting a lawsuit
16:26:08  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Sacro:
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16:26:13  <orudge> as he's not going to get much out of it
16:26:17  <orudge> yes, OK, the whole thing isn't about money
16:26:21  <orudge> there's what's "right"
16:26:32  <orudge> but ultimately, the potential chance of a lawsuit IS about money.
16:26:50  <orudge> If OpenTTD were making money, then a lawsuit would seem a lot more likely
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16:28:04  <Digitalfox_Desktop> But he isn't getting any real money of a lawsuit against openttd, first theres no money being made, second a court wouldn't give him millions like the one he has against atari.. But thats just my way of seeing it :)
16:28:41  <KUDr> [18:26:50] <orudge> If OpenTTD were making money, then a lawsuit would seem a lot more likely << the same can happen if he thinks he is loosing money
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16:29:10  <orudge> That as may be, but he's probably losing more by not marketing an updated version himself
16:29:19  <Digitalfox_Desktop> In court he could only invoke less sales of ttd, but who still sells legally copys of ttd??
16:29:31  <orudge> you can find a few seconds hand copies on eBay, Amazon, etc
16:29:38  <orudge> but of course, it's not on general release as such
16:29:53  <Digitalfox_Desktop> But are they legally sellede by companys or stores or personal copys used?
16:29:54  <guru3> Digitalfox_Desktop: i found one in the last two years
16:29:57  <Digitalfox_Desktop> *selled
16:30:01  <Sacro> KUDr: but if he has lost money to due to not having XP compatibilty, then that's his issue?
16:30:05  <KUDr> can be not only TTD but others (locomotion?)
16:30:34  <KUDr> if ottd is playable and better
16:30:40  <KUDr> he can lose money
16:30:59  <dihedral> fact is that they aint happy with any of the projects, and that they are more than aware of them
16:31:02  <KUDr> or any new product he is thinking about
16:31:24  <Sacro> if CS brought out an updated Transport Tycoon, i'd buy it
16:31:27  <KUDr> simply "if you can eliminate the competition before entering the market, do it"
16:31:47  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Well to me, keep the good development that has been made in openttd.. And wait for something officially declared by cs ( witch i believe will never happen )..
16:31:51  <orudge> dihedral: this is something we've basically known for ages though
16:31:59  <orudge> Chris Sawyer himself expressed his dislike of TTDPatch back in 1999 or so
16:32:13  <orudge> so it's hardly surprising that the same is true of OpenTTD
16:32:14  <dihedral> you have a link?
16:32:17  <orudge> one sec
16:32:17  <KUDr> and we can use new data files of it and tell users "if you want to play ottd, buy this one first"
16:32:33  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Well the patch is in the same route has openttd.. Because it alters the game also.. So if patch devs don't stop why should openttd?
16:32:34  <Sacro> if he wants to make money
16:32:40  <KUDr> in the worst case this can be the result of his legal effort
16:32:45  <Sacro> why doesn't he purchase a server, and sell the needed data files
16:32:57  <KUDr> he will want to make money from our work
16:33:09  <Sacro> then we could say, "if you need the data files, CS has them available here for $xxx"
16:33:10  <KUDr> yes, he can
16:33:20  <KUDr> but needs support from us
16:33:27  <KUDr> to tell users "you must"
16:33:34  <dihedral> the data files are also not the point
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16:33:44  <orudge> hmmm
16:33:48  <orudge> is one of the threads
16:33:51  <orudge> I have a feeling there was another
16:34:15  <Sacro> haha, i like how he put, "it was from Him"
16:34:40  <Sacro> oh, but it's a german... so it may be capitlised by their rules
16:34:53  <orudge> Sacro: Josef has a pretty good grasp of English
16:34:59  <orudge> so I don't really think it was that
16:35:03  <Kejhic> hmm, i found bug in nigtly with tram and tunnel, anybody know about it?
16:37:04  <Sacro> haha, i love his sig
16:37:14  <orudge> Sacro is a newbie, I guess, he was never on AGMTT, was he?
16:37:20  <Sacro> :o
16:37:33  <Sacro> actually, i think i did go on it a couple of times
16:38:29  <Sacro> orudge: by the way, i am older than you :p
16:39:05  <orudge> Yes
16:39:13  <orudge> but it doesn't mean you've been around in the TT world for longer than me :p
16:39:31  <Sacro> well i got TTO back in... beginning of 96 i think
16:39:55  <orudge> but when did you first join the TT community as such? :p
16:40:40  *** BobingAbout [~BobingAbo@adsl-87-102-41-110.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
16:40:48  <Sacro> BobingAbout!
16:40:55  <BobingAbout> Sacro!
16:41:03  <Sacro> orudge: err... i've been visitng tt-forums on and off for years
16:41:04  <orudge> another Hullian D:
16:41:05  <orudge> :p
16:41:07  <Sacro> i do remember the church of tt
16:41:10  <orudge> Sacro: yes, but before tt-forums existed? ;)
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16:41:18  <Sacro> err...
16:41:24  <Sacro> i think i went on the usenet group
16:41:29  <orudge> anyway
16:41:32  * orudge is hungry
16:41:35  * orudge shall get food soon probably
16:41:42  <BobingAbout> FOOD
16:41:46  <Sacro> orudge: tesco have maryland cookies on bogof
16:41:56  <orudge> BOG OFF.
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16:44:22  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
16:44:22  <Ammler> !logs
16:46:00  <SpComb> new and upgraded, now with a help system, and some text nagging you to register!
16:46:32  *** skidd13 is now known as skidd13|dinner
16:46:48  <Sacro> SpComb: you still can't talk through it though
16:47:02  <SpComb> a design decision
16:48:22  <orudge> SpBot: you also can't search by date
16:48:31  <orudge> as far as I can see?
16:49:02  <SpComb> search by date?
16:49:04  <orudge> well
16:49:11  <orudge> in the old logs, you can specify how many days to search
16:49:14  <orudge> eg, 1, 2, 5, 60, etc
16:49:15  <SpComb> there's a list of dates, but not in the search thing
16:49:17  <orudge> you can't in this one
16:49:22  <BobingAbout> ...
16:49:30  <SpComb> indeed, some kind of limiting as to the results returned is needed
16:49:32  <orudge> it'd also be nice if it showed more than 10 lines, although I guess that's a preference thing
16:49:41  <SpComb> that, and Alt-PageUp
16:49:42  <orudge> ah, yes
16:49:47  <SpComb> as the help file now says
16:50:11  <Prof_Frink> SpComb: Wow, that's actually pretty awesome
16:50:15  <orudge> also, tis just plain Page Up in Firefox, as far as I can see
16:50:23  <orudge> (on Windows)
16:50:32  <SpComb> PageUp just scrolls, Alt-PageUp grows
16:50:41  <orudge> Ah
16:50:41  <SpComb> Prof_Frink: which part, or is it just the first time you looked at them? :P
16:50:42  <orudge> so it does
16:50:59  <Prof_Frink> First time
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16:51:21  <SpComb> I clearly need to spam more about SpBot
16:51:35  <SpComb> and the scrolling is in the same category as the search-limiting
16:51:37  <orudge> Is there any way of it having an option just to dump the whole log though, in a manner similar to the old logs?
16:51:40  <orudge> ie, without the fancy interface
16:51:47  <orudge> I guess for that one would just use the old logs...
16:51:54  <orudge> it's easier to search through manually and so on, in a way
16:51:57  <orudge> than using the new interface
16:52:00  <orudge> (which is nice, by the way)
16:52:21  <SpComb> there used to be a show-all-logs-for-day, but I removed that
16:52:35  <SpComb> setting a large value for height and scroll speed in preferences, and then use that? :P
16:52:41  <orudge> :P
16:52:43  <orudge> Anyway, food, really
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16:57:48  <SmatZ> when I quit the game (using Ctrl+Q) while the End-of-the-game screen is displayed, the game segfaults
16:58:07  <Sacro> SmatZ: don't do it then :p
16:58:26  <SmatZ> Sacro: ahhh, great solution :)))
16:59:12  <SmatZ> another strange thing - when somebody connects while the server is paused, the text 'Player connected, unpausing' is displayed, though the game remains paused
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16:59:31  <Wolf01> hello
16:59:34  <SmatZ> these are so small problems that opening a bug report is too much :)
16:59:39  <SmatZ> Wolf01: hello
17:00:41  *** skidd13|dinner is now known as skidd13
17:00:45  <Sacro>
17:02:36  <orudge> spammar
17:02:46  <Wolf01> seem that today i have a real bug for you: the industry list sorts for English strings, not for translated strings, so if i want to sort by name it sorts by the city name, not for industry name, for cargo is the same, it sorts for English cargo name :/
17:09:18  *** Kejhic [~jklamo@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:09:34  <Maedhros> /* Sort by Name (handled later) */
17:09:41  <Maedhros> ;)
17:10:01  <Maedhros> i don't know what it's doing in the gui if it doesn't actually work though...
17:10:02  <Wolf01> nice to know it :)
17:14:50  <dihedral>
17:15:50  <dihedral> << this is even better
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17:49:23  <SmatZ> about the FS#1016
17:49:32  <SmatZ> "Additional comments about closing:  Although the might be questionnable, the graphic files are required, if only for the dimensions of the trains, which is used for colision detection"
17:50:17  <SmatZ> it is not used atm (in my opinion), there is a hardwired value - distance of < 6 in any direction -> crash
17:50:46  <SmatZ> train_cmd.cpp - myabs(v->x_pos - tcc->v->x_pos) < 6
17:52:19  <Rubidium> hmm, bad reason, though the graphics files are required in some non-drawing areas
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17:58:52  <SmatZ> ok :) just to make sure the collision detection this way is correct
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18:15:45  <hylje>
18:19:23  <Ammler> oh man, won't end...
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18:33:26  <SmatZ> how many engines are there in that train?
18:33:52  <hylje> 3 in front, 2 in the end
18:34:51  <SmatZ> and I though my trains in OTTD are unrealistic long :)
18:36:22  <hylje> ottd doesnt support facilities necessary for OMG HUEG trains
18:36:41  <hylje> say, rearranging a few trains to be one big one outside (or even inside) a depot
18:38:42  <SmatZ> :)
18:39:23  <hylje> also, rolling load/unload
18:46:01  <Ammler> sounds like a good idea for a patch
18:48:24  <Smoovious> <ln-> Gekko[PDA]: ludde himself has said he has done reverse engineering. <--- (yeah I know its old) but he wasn't bound by US laws... anyone know what the relevant laws on reverse engineering are in Sweden?
18:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> since when is this about US law? i thought CS was british...
18:51:03  <Caemyr> hmm
18:51:10  <Caemyr> i can ask one guy right now
18:51:11  <Caemyr> wait
18:51:25  <orudge> Chris Sawyer is British, and Marjacq is based in the UK
18:53:21  <dihedral> Smoovious: if there is money for a lawyer - get him to find out
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18:54:45  <dihedral> and after thinking for some time i must agree with orudge: the longer marjacq is taking, the less chance they have on doing anything! code in trunk is moving forward in ways that will not really allow to show where it came from
18:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it is not about what the laws are, but what they were 3(?) years ago when the alleged reverse engineering took place
18:55:04  <orudge> well
18:55:08  <orudge> the reverse engineering took place in Sweden
18:55:09  <dihedral> the fact that ttd's game data is used is not enough to prove reverse engeneering was done
18:55:17  <orudge> that may or may not make a difference, too
18:55:56  <Sacro|Laptop> well yes
18:56:04  <Sacro|Laptop> its a similar situation to thepiratebay
18:56:05  <dihedral> though it would be nice to have a better solution - i.e. some agreement with marjacq
18:56:20  <orudge> It'd be nice
18:56:23  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the situation anyway, they have to prove that we did reverse engineer, not we have to prove that we did not
18:56:24  <Sacro|Laptop> they keep getting letters pointing out how they are illegal under "US Federal Law"
18:56:33  <orudge> but unfortunately, Marjacq's goals don't really match our own, ultimately
18:56:38  <Sacro|Laptop> and they reply "Yes, but Sweden isn't part of the US"
18:56:56  <Sacro|Laptop> Eddi|zuHause: theoretically, innocent until proven guitly
18:56:59  <Sacro|Laptop> *guilty
18:57:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if the comparison with tpb is a really good one in front of a court :p
18:58:15  <Caemyr> depends in which country:)
18:58:20  <Caemyr> not in the USA:P
18:58:22  <Caemyr> that`s for surr
18:58:24  <Caemyr> sure
18:58:50  <Caemyr> CS needs to get a grip on reality
18:58:58  <Maedhros> err, what?
18:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> also, if something is legal in one country, and illegal in another, there is the question if exporting that something to the other country is legal
18:59:21  <Caemyr> if not the TTDpatch/OpenTDD, no one would remember him right now
18:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Caemyr: i think you are completely missing the point
19:00:07  <Caemyr> it`s like Baldurs Gate devs would bitch on the community, for creating the mods
19:00:14  <orudge> [19:56:39] <Sacro|Laptop> and they reply "Yes, but Sweden isn't part of the US" <-- didn't stop the US managing to extradite an Australian who had never set foot in the US
19:00:28  <Caemyr> Australia is a funny country
19:00:35  <Sacro|Laptop> orudge: true...
19:00:46  <Sacro|Laptop> you reckon that sweden would send ludde here?
19:00:48  <Sacro|Laptop> i doubt that
19:00:51  <Caemyr> has the hardest copyright laws
19:00:59  <Caemyr> they are more strict than USA
19:01:36  <dihedral> orudge: buying permission :-)
19:01:44  <orudge> Sacro|Laptop: doubt it, but just saying ;)
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19:02:50  <Caemyr> and btw on ReactOS, the audit happened only because that hoax got out
19:03:00  <Caemyr> about presumable leaked code
19:03:31  <Maedhros> that's still not the point
19:03:45  <Caemyr> Ms havent done or comment about ROS yet
19:04:17  <Caemyr> whereas for example, the Longhorn project got busted really soon
19:05:21  <Sacro|Laptop> did it?
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19:05:33  <Caemyr> they got C&D
19:05:37  *** lolman [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:05:43  <Sacro|Laptop> Firefox can't find the server at D:
19:05:45  <Caemyr> and dropped it
19:05:48  <Sacro|Laptop> i was gonna try running it
19:05:58  <Caemyr> this was stolen code
19:06:02  <Caemyr> binaries
19:06:06  <Caemyr> to be exact
19:06:38  <Caemyr> I`m just trying to say that CS would act againt the project if he wanted to
19:07:56  <Caemyr> you either act, or dont act. Threatening to act shows your weakness.
19:10:03  <Caemyr> my only hope is that you guys wont drop this project just because CS is smirking his nose
19:10:06  <Caemyr> bbl
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19:33:53  <izhirahider> where do I choose this primary industry prospection thing?
19:34:09  <izhirahider> I can't seem to find it in the patches section (in svn)
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19:36:40  <SmatZ> izhirahider: in the Economy section of patches
19:37:15  <SmatZ> there is something like 'Primary indutry construction style'
19:37:36  <Digitalfox> Is this by design or bug??
19:37:37  <Digitalfox>
19:38:03  <Digitalfox> When building 4 airbus 380 with planeset newgrf, i have two normal ones and 2 strange ones
19:38:17  <hylje> its likely a bug
19:38:30  <Digitalfox> Like if they were using old sprites from original graphics
19:39:12  <Rubidium> well, it's more likely that those aircraft are built with another livery
19:39:12  <Digitalfox> Hum.. I will create a bug report
19:39:46  <Digitalfox> but they the use the normal livery of passengers.. I just clicked 4 times
19:40:09  <Rubidium> newgrfs can change the livery on build too (IIRC)
19:40:33  <Belugas> SmatZ, IIRC, 2nd option of Economy tab on configuration patches
19:41:03  <izhirahider> Belugas, SmatZ, thanks
19:41:30  <izhirahider> I wasn't recognizing my own translation :)
19:42:23  <peter1138> Digitalfox: it's by design
19:42:41  <peter1138> as you'll know if you read the readme
19:43:02  <Digitalfox> peter1138: But when i chose to reffit and try all possibilities i never get those graphics
19:43:38  <peter1138> yes
19:45:01  <Digitalfox> Well, ok... But in my opinion it's a strange by design.. Because i wanted all my 380 to look like the minishot :\
19:45:30  <peter1138> sell the dodgy ones and buy new ones
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19:45:36  <peter1138> it's randomised
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19:45:56  <hylje> :o?
19:46:01  <hylje> what why
19:46:02  <peter1138> oh, and it's the design of the planeset, nothing to do with ottd
19:46:05  <Digitalfox> They still appear the same in the same slots
19:46:06  <peter1138> ö
19:46:10  <hylje> ö
19:46:14  <Digitalfox> yeah ok
19:46:28  <Digitalfox> I'll talk to dalestan.. Oh boy it's going to be a hard task
19:46:29  <peter1138> if you read the readme it will tell you which parameters control that behaviour
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19:47:10  <Digitalfox> oh ok.. I'll read, thank god no talk..
19:47:37  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!*De_Ghost@*] by peter1138
19:47:38  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!*gekko@*] by peter1138
19:48:09  <Sacro|Laptop> hehe
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19:55:05  * Smoovious is finally in realtime.
19:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> time now is 21:56
19:56:20  <Eddi|zuHause> are you there yet? :p
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19:57:08  <dihedral> good night ladies :-)
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19:59:59  <Smoovious> nope... just caught up so the timestamp over there <-- matches the clock over there -->
20:00:58  <Smoovious> well... as far as a 24-hour clock with seconds, can match up with a 12-hour clock without seconds can, anyways
20:01:32  <Prof_Frink> Smoovious: Is your clock only accurate twice a day?
20:01:38  <elmz> 24h w/sec ftw :P
20:01:39  *** scia [~scia@] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:02:00  <Prof_Frink> elmz: Pah, unixtime
20:02:15  <elmz> haha, ok, have to admit, much cooler
20:08:17  <Prof_Frink> Or, binary clock
20:19:08  <elmz> binary unix time :P
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20:25:43  <hylje> Prof_Frink: the clock is either 1 or 0?
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20:35:17  <Biff> hylje: 01000110100100111110110101111011
20:35:19  <Biff> like that
20:35:27  <hylje> i see
20:35:45  <Biff> try: perl -e 'print unpack("B*", pack("N",time()))'
20:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> my maths teacher had a binary watch ;)
20:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it displayed hours, minutes and seconds in binary :)
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20:47:05  <hylje> increase max player count pls
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20:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> demand and ye shall ...
20:58:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10500 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1007]: cannot navigate using arrow keys in the game name text box. Patch by benc.
20:59:11  <hylje> :o
20:59:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10501 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1015]: error dialog was sometimes shown on all clients when a command failed instead of only the client that actually did the command.
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21:03:52  <MUcht> again, the feature of having > 10 clients on our server is highly desirable
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21:23:03  <caladan> Eddi|zuHause: I once build a binary clock, now im thinking of building my own watch. It's really matter of saving power
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21:36:33  <ln-> does there happen to be a library for drawing and handling isometric terrains?
21:38:09  <Ailure> [22:56] <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10501 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1015]: error dialog was sometimes shown on all clients when a command failed instead of only the client that actually did the command.
21:38:11  <Ailure> hah
21:38:16  <Ailure> and I thought that was a feature
21:38:17  <Ailure> D:
21:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> most "isometric" views are not really isometric anyway
21:42:51  <Eddi|zuHause> isometric view is based on an angle of 30° (=arcsin(1/2)), but for pixel based views, an angle of ~26.5°(=arctan(1/2)) is easier to implement
21:43:20  <ln-> hmm, ok.
21:43:38  <Ailure> heh
21:43:39  <ln-> so does there happen to be a library for drawing and handling arctan(1/2) terrains?
21:43:42  <Ailure> and with real isometric view
21:43:58  <Ailure> a cube sides is as large
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21:44:00  <Caemyr> btw
21:44:07  <Ailure> assuming the cube is of a x*x*x size
21:44:10  <Caemyr> swedish laws allow reverse engineering
21:44:18  <Ailure> yes I belive so
21:44:18  <Caemyr> without any special restrictions
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21:44:45  <Caemyr> if only it doesnt lead to breaking copyrights
21:46:25  <ln-> in this case it did.
21:50:26  <Caemyr> what was the name of that swedish guy
21:50:34  <Caemyr> that did the disassembly?
21:50:43  <Caemyr> if this is not a secret?:)
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21:51:36  <Smoovious> ludde
21:51:39  <SmatZ> Caemyr:
21:51:47  <Caemyr> thank you
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21:51:55  <ln->
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21:58:42  <Ailure> heh
21:59:01  <Ailure> Ludde dosen't really ive that far away from me if wikipedia is right about his location
21:59:19  <Ailure> although he hadn't been active for years in the openTTD project and is mostly working on uTorrent
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22:00:17  <Ailure> hmm
22:00:30  <Ailure> there's a lack of a swedish flag for languages ;)
22:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i think he showed up here a while ago... telling something about renewing the domain name or something
22:00:34  <Smoovious> he's past µTorrent... he's involving himsellf in a music service now
22:00:43  <Ailure> ah
22:00:59  <Ailure> sounds like the type of guy who works on a project for a bit then drops it for something else
22:01:12  <Ailure> which I probabl will do eventually :p
22:01:39  <Smoovious> well... that's  the way it is for lots of programmers... if you're able to work on things that interest you, you wander
22:01:56  <Ailure> yeah
22:02:07  <Ailure> I found myself like
22:02:12  <Ailure> picking up a project rather fast
22:02:15  <Ailure> write lots of nice code
22:02:22  <Ailure> then lose intrest and stop
22:02:33  <Smoovious> yeah
22:02:52  <Smoovious> I got so many  unfinished things on my computers its rediculous
22:03:20  <Ailure> same
22:03:28  <Ailure> You should see the number of unfinished projects I have too
22:03:47  <Ailure> Sometimes it dosen't even go out of planning stage
22:03:54  <Ailure> and it's just a prototype showing off something
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22:11:59  <Smoovious> um...  question about  that tt-forums link... what is TTU?
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22:18:28  <DeGhosty> i found a bug!!
22:18:47  <DeGhosty> when your train have 100 engins
22:18:53  <DeGhosty> max speed is 4
22:18:55  <DeGhosty> km/h
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22:25:17  <Smoovious> ...
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22:45:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10502 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1017]: trying to get the town from a tile that can never be associated with a town.
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22:52:44  <Caemyr> btw about ReactOS
22:52:44  <Caemyr>
22:52:46  <Caemyr> :)
22:52:55  <Gekko> lol
22:52:56  <Gekko> cool
22:53:16  <Xaroth> o_O been a while since i last dragged my butt in here
22:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> looks a little quirky
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