Log for #openttd on 16th July 2007:
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00:21:02  <orudge> you slapping me, Sacro?
00:21:05  <orudge> because that won't be much use.
00:21:09  <orudge> not on QuakeNet, anyway.
00:21:15  <Sacro> oh?
00:21:57  <orudge> Why were you slapping me?
00:22:22  <Sacro> cos you'd not heard of X3
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00:23:10  <orudge> Sacro: ah, so not because of the network otuage :p
00:23:14  <orudge> *outage
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00:27:48  <CobraA1> Is there some way, some debugging software, perhaps, to get the history of a variable? I've got a pointer that gets set to strange values, and I have no idea why.
00:28:51  <Sacro> CobraA1: gdb?
00:29:07  <glx> Sacro: doesn't work if compiled with MSVC
00:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can add watchpoints whenever a certain variable gets changed
00:29:19  <CobraA1> MSVC. 2005, Express.
00:29:53  <Sacro> glx: so?
00:30:02  <Sacro> g++ and gdb are both gpl
00:31:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10585 /branches/NewGRF_ports/bin/data/ (rb_airport2.grf rb_airport2_old.grf):
00:31:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Add: Added two test newgrf files.
00:31:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rb_airport2.grf: Adds Commuter airport using Action0Airports (00 0D)
00:31:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rb_airport2_old.grf: Adds Commuter airport using Action0Stations. (00 04). Should become obsolete once full 000D support is working.
00:32:12  <CobraA1> What information does gdb give me?
00:34:05  <CobraA1> And is cygwin or MinGW preferable?
00:34:06  <Eddi|zuHause> almost none, if not compiled with debug information
00:34:41  <glx> I'm sure you can debug using msvc
00:35:43  <CobraA1> I can debug, yes, but that just tells me something is wrong.
00:36:02  <glx> even in step by step?
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00:36:06  <CobraA1> The memory location changes long before the error occurs.
00:38:23  <CobraA1> I wouldn't know where to begin stepping.
00:39:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10586 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (13 files in 4 dirs):
00:39:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Feature: Load an airport via a newgrf file. Currently, only graphics support provided.
00:39:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Try loading rb_airports.grf as a newgrf. Airport gui should list one Commuter airport in the Small Airports category.
00:39:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: DO NOT TRY TO USE NORMAL AIRPORTS. All normal stuff is disabled, to validate that airport is coming from newgrf file.
00:39:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Work in progress... dont expect miracles!
00:40:16  <CobraA1> Oh, great, that code just committed may conflict with my path, I've been doing soo much with airports lately . . .
00:40:47  <glx> no it is in a branch
00:40:51  <CobraA1> k
00:41:20  <CobraA1> Anyways, I managed to use a data breakpoint and got this stack trace:
00:41:27  <CobraA1>    ntdll.dll!_RtlFillMemoryUlong@12()  + 0x10 bytes
00:41:27  <CobraA1>     ntdll.dll!_RtlpInsertFreeBlock@12()  + 0xbc1b bytes
00:41:27  <CobraA1>     ntdll.dll!_RtlpExtendHeap@8()  + 0x50 bytes
00:41:27  <CobraA1>     ntdll.dll!@RtlpAllocateHeap@20()  - 0x35f9b bytes
00:41:27  <CobraA1>     ntdll.dll!_RtlAllocateHeap@12()  + 0xb1f bytes
00:41:29  <CobraA1>     ntdll.dll!_RtlDebugAllocateHeap@12()  + 0xb5 bytes
00:41:29  <CobraA1>     ntdll.dll!@RtlpAllocateHeap@20()  + 0x1bb26 bytes
00:41:31  <CobraA1>     ntdll.dll!_RtlAllocateHeap@12()  + 0xb1f bytes
00:41:31  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!_heap_alloc_base(unsigned int size=65572)  Line 105 + 0x28 bytes   C
00:41:33  <CobraA1>    openttd.exe!_heap_alloc_dbg(unsigned int nSize=65536, intnBlockUse=1, const char * szFileName=0x00000000, int nLine=0)  Line 411+ 0x9 bytes   C++
00:41:33  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!_nh_malloc_dbg(unsigned intnSize=65536, int nhFlag=0, int nBlockUse=1, const char *szFileName=0x00000000, int nLine=0)  Line 268 + 0x15 bytes   C++
00:41:35  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!malloc(unsigned int nSize=65536)  Line 154 + 0x15 bytes   C++
00:41:35  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!_zcalloc()  + 0xf bytes   C
00:41:37  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!_deflateInit2_@32()  + 0x17e bytes   C
00:41:37  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!_deflateInit_@16()  + 0x21 bytes   C
00:41:39  <CobraA1> >   openttd.exe!InitWriteZlib()  Line 1194 + 0x13 bytes   C++
00:41:39  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!SaveFileToDisk(bool threaded=true)  Line 1543 + 0xa bytes   C++
00:41:41  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!SaveFileToDiskThread(void * arg=0x00000000)  Line 1574   C++
00:41:41  <CobraA1>     openttd.exe!Proxy(void * arg=0x035b2060)  Line 120 + 0x10 bytes   C++
00:41:43  <CobraA1>     kernel32.dll!@BaseThreadInitThunk@12()  + 0x12 bytes
00:41:43  <CobraA1>     ntdll.dll!__RtlUserThreadStart@8()  + 0x27 bytes
00:42:55  <glx> next time use
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00:45:26  <CobraA1> I don't use IRC that often, sorry.
00:48:53  <CobraA1> Anyways, I have a thread open on the forums.
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00:56:17  <glx> hmm 10383 is quite old (doesn't apply cleanly on latest trunk)
00:57:31  <CobraA1> Yeah, I tend to stick to one revision and update later.
00:57:53  <glx> but some memory corruption bug may have been fixed
00:58:13  <glx> (can't remember if it's the case though)
00:58:45  <CobraA1> ok, so I should update and try again?
01:00:32  <Phazorx> !openttd commint 10491
01:00:35  <Phazorx> !openttd commit 10491
01:00:39  <_42_> Commit by KUDr :: r10491 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_costrail.hpp (2007-07-09 18:57:12 UTC)
01:00:41  <_42_> -Fix [FS#988, YAPF]: When rail segment was cached using electric engine and it ended with non-electric rail it was incorrectly cached with the end reason ESRB_DEAD_END instead of ESRB_RAIL_TYPE.  (Eddi)
01:00:43  <_42_>  - It caused YAPF to end prematurely there when it was searching for another path (for non-electric engine).
01:00:45  <_42_>  - It can lead to sub-optimal path taken or 'train is lost' message.
01:00:47  <_42_>  - In MP game it can also cause desync.
01:00:49  <_42_>  - Uses changes made in r10489.
01:01:03  <Phazorx> that one was buffer overflow kind
01:01:51  <Phazorx> is "crash in tunnles" bug fixed?
01:02:00  <CobraA1> mmk, bbl, gonna update my patch and try again . . .
01:02:05  <glx> Phazorx: not yet
01:02:29  <Phazorx> glx: at least identified?
01:02:37  <glx> dunno
01:03:00  <glx> probably a hash problem but I'm not specialist
01:04:31  <Rippsy> peter1138 i've got an idea/sugguestion for you :)
01:04:52  <Rippsy> if it was peter who did the control-click build signals that is
01:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda doubt he will respond at this hour :p
01:05:20  <Rippsy> hey if anyone is awake he might be :P was worth a ding just incase :)
01:05:42  <Rippsy> Was just thinking if you can impliment signal creation like that, can't you impliment rail-convert the same way but in a full loop
01:06:21  <glx> Phazorx: maybe r10513 fixed what you are talking about
01:06:25  <Eddi|zuHause> why? you can drag&drop convert...
01:06:54  <Phazorx> glx: 550 introduced the tunnel thingy i doubt it was fixed before
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01:08:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate this habit of abbreviating revision numbers by 3 digits...
01:09:00  <Phazorx> well sorry but first ones do not matter much
01:09:03  <Rippsy> Eddi|zuHause because if you have lots of seperate but crossing networks
01:09:08  <Rippsy> it makes it very easy to upgrade in parts
01:09:18  <Rippsy> Just thought it might be able to be done using the same code
01:09:22  <Rippsy> a quick thing to make upgrades easier
01:09:28  <Rippsy> or at least similar code
01:10:05  <Phazorx> upgrade?
01:10:42  <glx> CobraA1: compilation fails with gcc
01:10:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i am against a one-click-convert...
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01:11:32  <CobraA1> It also conflicts with the trunk. Hang on, updating . . . what errors does GCC throw?
01:11:48  <Rippsy> Eddi, why?
01:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but then, i rarely upgrade at all... sometimes conventional to elrail
01:12:05  <Rippsy> i usually do rail-electric-maglev
01:12:16  <Rippsy> don't bother with monorail usually
01:12:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i did not get to the maglev stage in a long time...
01:13:07  <Rippsy> eheh :)
01:13:22  <Rippsy> 149million at 2002 at the moment in my sandbox
01:13:29  <Rippsy> can't be too long now
01:13:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but since most vehicle sets do not have generic maglevs, upgrading the network would not make sense anyway
01:15:05  <Rippsy> Surely the sets will grow to include maglev? or at least some form of advanced rail?
01:15:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i should start a daylength x4 or x8 game, x32 is over the top
01:15:30  <glx> CobraA1:
01:15:33  <Rippsy> x32 speed? :O!?
01:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause> they contain maglev, but not generic, and that is deliberate
01:16:11  <Eddi|zuHause> no, x32 length = /32 speed :p
01:17:00  <Rippsy> Whats wrong with generic maglev :P
01:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it's unrealistic
01:17:32  <Rippsy> its in the future, whos to say thast unrealistic
01:17:49  <CobraA1> glx: Ugh, template problems again? It was bad enough getting them working in MSVC++ :(
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01:21:20  <Rippsy> nn
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01:34:20  <CobraA1> Updated buggy patch for trunk. Bug still occurs.
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01:42:03  <glx> at what date the crash should happen?
01:43:27  <Phazorx> who needs generic maglev... yay for transrapids
01:46:49  <CobraA1> glx: Tell all of the aircraft at the small airport to start moving, and it should crash soon after the second aircraft lands. Mine crashed @ 3rd November.
01:47:59  <CobraA1> glx: Did you modify the template code to get it working in GCC? If so, can you send me the modifications?
01:48:27  <glx> no I don't know templates very well so I use MSVC for now
01:49:44  <glx> ok crash in push()
01:50:29  <glx> it can't read 'size' it seems
01:52:41  <CobraA1> Interesting. I get the error in getPos(), but for a similar reason.
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01:55:20  <glx> now it is in getpos
01:59:00  <glx> v->queue_item is correct but v->queue_item->getQueue() is wrong
02:01:21  <glx> hmm indeed v->queue_item is not valid
02:05:47  <glx> when is an aircraft removed from the queue?
02:08:21  <CobraA1> In IndexedQueue: ~IndexedQueue() pop() midDelete() clear()
02:08:40  <CobraA1> Anything that calls one of those
02:09:17  <glx> I think v->queue_item points to an old queue_item but I fail to see why
02:12:12  * glx goes to sleep
02:12:14  <glx> bye all
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09:17:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10587 /trunk/src/ (39 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move the string/dparam related stuff from variables.h to strings.h
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10:07:54  <Smoky555> hi all !  i download and compile last SVN, but when i run it, i can't see loading indicator, but in "Configure patches"  "use loading indicator" is ON. It is a bug or ... ?
10:09:35  <Rubidium> are you zoomed out?
10:10:30  <peter1138> or transparent
10:11:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> i miss the Ctrl+D mode :(
10:11:43  <Smoky555> grrr... now i see it, but i only restart a game and load last save, don't change anything in config ...
10:13:13  <Smoky555> peter1138 : if i choose "hide buildings", the loading indicator became transparent too, it is not visible.
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10:16:25  <Smoky555> i thinks - this is a bug, because if i enabled "Show loading indicator" in "Configure patches" - it must be showed in different mode (transparent trees, buildings, something else ...). Or i did't understand something?
10:17:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think wolf01 had a patch to separate them
10:17:13  <Smoky555> where?
10:17:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> no idea
10:17:31  <Smoky555> :)
10:17:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> you might start in the forum thread
10:18:38  <Smoovious> Smoky555... use the transparency options
10:18:40  <peter1138> it is separate
10:18:49  <peter1138> but 'hide buildings' hides everything
10:18:56  <Smoovious> the train  icon
10:19:26  <Smoovious> maybe a forklift  there would be better... .. .
10:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> a what?
10:22:31  <Smoovious> a forklift... you know... a work  vehicle used for loading and unloading skids off of trucks and boxcars
10:22:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> and what does that have to do with trains?
10:23:09  <Smoovious> it doesn't... it ha s to do with loading
10:23:13  <Smoovious> for the loading indicator?
10:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause2>
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10:27:04  <Smoovious> yeah, one of t hose
10:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> watch it :p
10:27:33  <Smoovious> I am
10:27:44  <Smoovious> I don't understand a word, b ut I'm watching i t
10:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> understanding is not essential ;)
10:28:31  <Smoovious> hmm...
10:28:42  <Smoovious> I do believe I understand you a lot better now
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10:29:17  <Smoovious> (btw,  that first one i s why you always go back-end first through doorways)
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10:29:29  <Smoovious> <-- ex forklift operator
10:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> btw. that is supposed to be an official training video for new drivers
10:30:28  <Smoovious> yeah, I can tell
10:30:43  <Smoovious> certainly better than the o nes  I've seen... no sense o f humor at all
10:33:26  <Tlustoch> If I will drive directly from upper corner to down, it's same length as from upper corner to the left and then down??
10:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> for station distance calculation, yes, for train travel time, no
10:35:04  <Smoovious> distance is  straight-line between stations...
10:39:53  <Smoovious> nice... (video)
10:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a real classic :)
10:47:31  <Smoovious> might even forward it to my old boss...
10:47:44  <Smoovious> af 20-min or so
10:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> with the popularity of the video, there should probably be english subtitles around also
10:49:27  <Smoovious> nvm... not leaving yet
10:49:49  <Smoovious> probably better withhout em
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11:05:37  <ln->
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11:07:29  <peter1138> it's all in stupid-language
11:08:05  <Noldo> it's the .ee language
11:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have never seen a non-stupid person speaking that language
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11:33:05  <alex__> estonia?
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12:22:11  <Rippsy> well that was a quick lesson learnt when making sugguestions - never include the word 'secure' *pushes the post back on topic*
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12:29:30  <Noldo> what?
12:34:25  <TheJosh> hello everyone
12:35:13  <Rubidium> Rippsy: the whole problem is that everyone wants to put the passwords in the savegame, when just an external text file would suffice: <name of save>.pwd containing the md5s for all companies. This way you can still easily distribute the savegames and you do not expose the (fairly) weak md5s to the "bad" outside world
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12:35:25  <Timwi> Hello
12:35:46  <Rippsy> That'd work, i'd not object to that, but how do you tell the game to load the txt file with the save game?
12:36:01  <Timwi> I was just wondering if someone could help me with a problem? All my trains refuse to use bridges (they just turn around and go back). What am I doing wrong?
12:36:03  <Rippsy> check if savename.pws exists?
12:36:13  <Rippsy> Timwi is it the correct track type?
12:36:21  <Timwi> How do you mean?
12:36:29  <Timwi> Of course it's a rail bridge, not a street bridge :-p
12:36:49  <Timwi> I've played the original Transport Tycoon 12 years ago and it worked then :-p
12:36:51  <Rubidium> running electric trains on a non-electrified bridge is what Rippsy means
12:36:57  <Rippsy> no Timwi is it an electric railbridge?
12:37:03  <Rippsy> idd
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12:37:16  <Rippsy> Rubidium is that a plausable solution Rubidium?
12:37:33  <Rubidium> Rippsy: yes
12:37:44  <Timwi> How do I tell if the train is "electric" and whether the bridge is "electrified"?
12:37:53  <Rippsy> hm
12:38:02  <Rippsy> it has electric thingies on it .. can't remember what they are called
12:38:03  <Timwi> (and why did I never have to worry about that back in the olden days :-) )
12:38:06  <Rippsy> :P
12:38:13  <Rippsy> its a new intermidiate tracktype
12:38:17  <Rippsy> well 'new'
12:38:18  <Rubidium> Timwi: because it's a "feature"
12:38:25  <Rubidium> but you can turn it off
12:38:35  <TheJosh> why though? just dont use 'em
12:38:55  <Timwi> I don't mind using them, but I'd need to learn how to use them properly so that my trains don't turn around :-p
12:38:57  <Rubidium> TheJosh: because then you can't use electrified engines
12:39:09  <Rippsy> Timwi, was that the solution or is it something else?
12:39:31  <Rubidium> but when you turn electrified tracks off, the electrified engines run on normal rail as they did in "the old" days
12:39:37  <TheJosh> elecrrified is cool anyway, you get faster trains
12:39:47  <TheJosh> ah i understand now
12:41:04  <Timwi> So does a "Floss '47' (Diesel)" count as electric?
12:41:10  <Rubidium> no
12:41:22  <Timwi> OK, so you're saying it should be able to use *any* bridge?
12:41:26  <TheJosh> nope, deisel
12:41:39  <Rubidium> Timwi: when you own the bridge
12:41:43  <Timwi> So if I build a bridge now and it doesn't use it then I've found a bug? :)
12:41:49  <TheJosh> Floss is the second-best deisel, short of the sh-125
12:42:21  <guru3> Viva Floss.
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12:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> Timwi: "Steam" and "Diesel" are non-electric, "Electric" is electric
12:42:28  <guru3> I never much liked the SH125 though.
12:42:36  <guru3> Those damn 8 bags of mail.
12:42:40  <TheJosh> i dont either, double headed
12:42:54  <guru3> I did have some fun with the double headed 74 and 80 passanger diesels though.
12:42:57  <TheJosh> i prefer to wait for the T.I.M. before I loose 1 carrige off all my trains
12:43:02  <guru3> It's fun making a mini network with them.
12:43:04  <Rippsy> guru3 can't you refit it?
12:43:08  <guru3> And it's hard as hell to make it profitable.
12:43:19  <guru3> Rippsy: not when I started playing and building up my engine prejudices.
12:43:24  <Rippsy> :D
12:43:28  <Rippsy> ahhaha
12:43:28  <TheJosh> i have a network thats loaded with 3 carrige passenger trains
12:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> i never really liked the default trainset
12:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> the electrics come way too late
12:43:52  <Timwi> OK, I've built the bridge, but the train is still turning around
12:43:53  <guru3> I'm just so used to it now.
12:43:57  <TheJosh> they were 125s but i recently took them to TIMs, they are no so zippy
12:43:57  <Timwi> Does that mean I've found a bug? :-p
12:43:58  <Rippsy> Timwi, have you checked all signals, track is connected and a route is found to destination, and its not using a 90deg turn onto the bridge where 90deg turns might be disabled?
12:44:03  <guru3> I'd be very confused if I tried to play with another train set.
12:44:23  <TheJosh> even a signal far off can annoy YAPF
12:44:27  <Rippsy> idd
12:44:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> Timwi: do you have a picture?
12:44:29  <Timwi> Rippsy: I've built several bridges and I seem to have this problem with *any* train and *any* bridge.
12:44:37  <Timwi> OK, I'll make a screenshot, hang on
12:44:39  <Rippsy> pictures or save game please
12:44:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> or a savegame?
12:44:40  <Rubidium> Timwi: what version?
12:44:43  <Timwi> Hm, how do I do that through VNC? :>
12:44:43  <Rippsy> save game would be nice
12:44:44  <Rubidium> of OTTD
12:44:50  <Rippsy> i can host it and we can all check it out :)
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12:44:57  <Rippsy> lol your remoting onto your TTD game
12:44:58  <Timwi> 0.5.3-RC1
12:44:59  <Rippsy> .. nice work!
12:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> Timwi: update to RC2 first
12:45:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> RC1 is broken
12:45:31  <Timwi> Eddi|zuHause2: Are you suggesting that you *know* that this is a *known* problem in RC1?
12:45:47  <Timwi> Because if not, then RC2 will likely have it as well
12:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> i know that RC1 has known problems, i don't know which they are
12:46:08  <Rubidium> Timwi: RC1 had problems with bridges
12:47:44  <TheJosh> real quick question. how come, if i set in difficulty, compeditor start tiem to immediate, im still the only one playing?
12:47:57  <alex__> ai not enabled in multiplayer games
12:48:04  <guru3> AI, to the best of my knowledge in OpenTTD is a bit... dodgy.
12:48:07  <TheJosh> single player
12:48:20  <TheJosh> meh there there now
12:48:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> AI is bad... don't use... and they need some time to show up, even on "immediate" setting
12:48:40  <Rubidium> TheJosh: it starts randomly, but not the first X months (X = 0 in this case)
12:48:57  <TheJosh> Rubidium: thanks
12:49:09  <TheJosh> dumb question from a patcher i know, but meh
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12:49:29  <guru3> The only dumb question is the one you don't ask.
12:49:39  <Rippsy> Your only allowed one dumb question a week ;)
12:49:42  <guru3> After that it's the question you didn't Google first.
12:50:02  <guru3> Rippsy, do they roll over like my wireless plan minutes?
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12:50:04  <Rippsy> someones been reading the how to ask SMRT questions guide
12:50:21  <Rippsy> lol guru3 I wish :D
12:50:33  <guru3> Aww. Too bad. If they did, I'd have a few dozen that I could ask in one go.
12:50:40  <guru3> Sort of a stupidity spree, if you will.
12:51:01  <Rippsy> oh man that REALLY REALLY confuses me on the forums
12:51:09  <Rippsy> how the posts are all kept in local time of the posters location
12:51:12  <Rippsy> not servers time zone
12:51:20  <Rippsy> someone just replied to my post at 9pm.. *brain weeps*
12:51:31  <guru3> I wouldn't know as I don't really participate on the forums.
12:51:43  <guru3> It's hard enough for me to get around to participating on IRC here.
12:51:56  <Rippsy> or not
12:52:01  <Rippsy> since I just posted at 5pm.. wtf
12:52:20  <Rippsy> wow im speical today
12:52:22  <Rippsy> i was reading the join times
12:52:25  <guru3> Back in the day, I used to be a lot better at participating on forums.
12:52:25  <Rippsy> im going back to bed
13:02:07  <TheJosh> can someone please explain to me how to add data to an array in a class (the player class) without killing savegames?
13:02:26  <TheJosh> I want to up 	    SLE_ARR(Player, share_owners,          SLE_UINT8, 4), to an array of 10
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13:04:32  <TheJosh> do i canhge it to a condvar and grab some bytes from the SLE_CONDNULL at the end, and add another SLE_CONDNULL for whats left?
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13:10:52  <peter1138> TheJosh: ignore condnull
13:14:23  *** Timwi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:14:28  <TheJosh> i dont need to change the number of bytes on it?
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13:18:34  <TheJosh> so what is a CONDNULL anyway?
13:19:57  <peter1138> a bad idea :p
13:20:05  <glx> COND means not used for all savegame versions
13:20:49  <TheJosh> ok this doesnt make sence though. If I expand an array but 6 bytes, how come games still save and load?
13:21:26  <glx> because you tell it what to do
13:22:12  <glx> (increase savegame version and use COND* in saveload arrays)
13:22:59  <TheJosh> and it works out the null space automatically?
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13:25:23  <TheJosh> cool
13:26:24  <peter1138> no, the null space is legacy stuff
13:27:25  <glx> usually we replace now unsaved variables by null to not increase savegame version
13:29:24  <Rubidium> glx: we have to replace them by NULL as there is no variable to map them to anymore
13:30:16  <glx> and a savegame bump is not needed in this case
13:34:51  <TheJosh> hey Im doing some worj with shares (10% instead of 25%) and what do people think of there being a small brokerage fee on each purchace/sale? something small like  (at the start of the game)
13:35:20  <Rubidium> thought about savegame compatability?
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13:35:55  <Rubidium> 'cause a 25% shares can't be split into 2.5 shares
13:37:42  <TheJosh> hmm, didnt think of that
13:38:06  <TheJosh> i could just take it to 30% but thats a tad dodgy...
13:38:28  <TheJosh> and 4 people with 25% each would get interesting
13:39:44  <TheJosh> i could make it 20 increments of 5% instead of 10 of 10%
13:41:29  <TheJosh> what do you think of the brokerage fee idea?
13:41:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10588 /branches/NewGRF_ports/projects/ (openttd.vcproj openttd_vs80.vcproj): [NewGRF_ports] -Update: project files
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13:48:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10589 /trunk/os/debian/rules: -Fix (Debian): --enable-install is not needed anymore.
13:50:50  <blathijs> Rubidium: That's trunk only, not 0.5 right?
13:51:08  <Rubidium> yes that's trunk
13:51:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10590 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: cargo_packet.* were not sorted correctly in project files
13:51:56  <blathijs> hmm? We have cargo packets already? Thought that never got finished :-)
13:52:19  <Rubidium> they are very lightweight
13:52:40  <Rubidium> they only contain origin + time in transit
13:53:34  <Rubidium> only done so transfers would work correctly without all kinds of hacks
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13:54:20  <anculz>
13:54:22  <anculz>
13:54:31  <Rubidium> @kick anculz stupid bot
13:54:31  *** anculz was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [stupid bot]
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13:55:03  <Rubidium> really stupid bot
13:55:07  <Rubidium> @op Rubidium
13:55:08  *** mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by DorpsGek
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13:55:54  *** mode/#openttd [-o Rubidium] by Rubidium
13:56:03  <blathijs> uh? Bot that is susceptible to threats? :-)
13:56:13  <glx> he's french :)
13:56:18  <glx> same provider as me
13:56:48  <Rubidium> and I was about to ban everything from *.net ;)
13:57:14  <glx> he has a static IP
13:57:24  <glx> so you can ban him if you want
13:58:00  <Rubidium> spam bots don't have static IPs...
13:58:16  <glx> are static IPs
13:58:22  <TheJosh> does anyone have any opinion at all on a 'brokerage fee' on share transactions?
13:58:31  <glx> needed because IPphone service
13:58:38  <mikegrb> he was akilled
13:58:40  <Rubidium> well, physical machines the bots run on, but not the "bot" themselves
13:59:13  <Rubidium> as the bots just hop from computer to computer (those nice infected (Windows) machines connected to the internet)
14:01:09  <TheJosh> hey is it a problem that the game credits are only in English?
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14:15:02  <Rippsy> There are game credits? :P
14:15:59  <TheJosh> yes
14:16:41  <TheJosh> is there anyway to speed up the game in multiplayer? I dont want to wait 5 years until my companies are mature enough to trade shares
14:18:13  <Rubidium> no
14:18:22  <Belugas> do credits need to be translated?
14:18:30  <Rubidium> going full-speed isn't going to work in multiplayer
14:19:37  <TheJosh> nvm i just commented out the 'new company' code to test in MP
14:20:27  <TheJosh> btw, i just did a patch if anyone is interested. its '5% shares' (was going to be 10%, but 5% combats conversion from the old 25% much better)
14:20:47  <peter1138> what does it allow?
14:21:05  <TheJosh> what do you mean?
14:21:15  <peter1138> what does the change allow?
14:21:32  <TheJosh> you buy shares in increments of 5% instead of 25% -> more control on how much you buy
14:21:59  <Rippsy> Nice touch
14:21:59  <Rippsy> :)
14:22:20  <TheJosh> dont download that one though. i just found a bug
14:22:27  <Rippsy> Still wont fix the buy-buy-sell-sell issue though but thats getting into silly economics
14:23:39  <TheJosh> i was goign to add a 'brokerage fee' but didnt
14:23:40  <Rippsy> but 5% incriments will mean small companies can invest in the huge ones which will be v' useful
14:23:43  <Rippsy> hehe
14:23:59  <TheJosh> there is a small loss you make when you do a sell, accodring to the code
14:24:09  <TheJosh> 	cost = -(cost - (cost >> 7));
14:24:19  <Rippsy> is that 7% or just '7'
14:24:20  <Rippsy> lol
14:25:10  <TheJosh> its bitshift by 7
14:25:29  <Rubidium> 1/128th
14:25:43  <TheJosh> so the cost will be reduced by 1/128th of itself
14:25:48  <TheJosh> not very much at all really.
14:25:49  <Rubidium> to 1/1.28 %
14:26:09  <Rippsy> When you buy into a compnay - does that company receive the cash? or does it just 'disappear'
14:26:29  <Rubidium> disappears
14:26:43  <Rippsy> So thats why investment is 'broke' then
14:26:46  <Rippsy> hms
14:26:52  <TheJosh> although wen you sell shares, money just comes from nowhere
14:26:55  <Rippsy> yea
14:27:08  <Rippsy> I'd noticed that and the abuse it allows in a game few days gao
14:27:10  <Rippsy> ago*
14:27:38  <TheJosh> So Rippsy, you going to try the patch?
14:27:43  <Rippsy> yours?
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14:27:50  <Timwi> Hi again.
14:27:51  <Rippsy> the 5% thing
14:27:55  <Timwi> Sorry about that, my computer crashed.
14:28:02  <Rippsy> could do if its as simple as installing a nightly, i've not messed with much yet
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14:28:18  <TheJosh> what OS are you on?
14:28:24  <Rippsy> Win XP
14:28:50  <TheJosh> you will probably want BuildOTTD. it downloads the src for you, and applies a patch too
14:29:33  <Rippsy> I'll check it out
14:29:40  <Timwi> Quick question -- if I just want to play the game normally, should I use 0.5.3-RC2 or 0.5.2?
14:29:48  <TheJosh> use a nightly
14:29:49  <Rippsy> Querk if shares were fixed
14:29:54  <Rippsy> if everyone pulled out of a company at the same time
14:29:55  <TheJosh> nightlys rule
14:30:05  <Rippsy> you could remove 75% of there liquid assets
14:30:08  <Rippsy> (which could be funny)
14:30:29  <TheJosh> my friend used to buy into a company, delete there everything then sell it again.
14:30:36  <Rippsy> lol
14:30:45  <TheJosh> that was on MiniIN, when you could buy a company, but it would still be seperate to yours
14:30:46  <Rippsy> well with two players
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14:30:52  <Rippsy> you can both increase your wealth for free using it
14:30:57  <Rippsy> due to it not effecting the invested IN company
14:31:20  <TheJosh> people do that in the real stock market - but its illegal
14:31:34  <Rippsy> naww that effects the invested in company
14:31:41  <Rippsy> but in ttd it doesn't
14:31:44  <TheJosh> if you own a large enough chunk of a stock that selling it all would crash that stocks price
14:31:45  <peter1138> fix it!
14:31:53  <TheJosh> then buying it all back at the crashed price
14:31:57  <Rippsy> ah peter1138, did you write the signals oneclick code?
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14:32:07  <Timwi> Since no-one replied, I'll try RC2 and complain if I find more bugs :-p
14:32:07  <peter1138> oneclick?
14:32:09  <TheJosh> peter1138: you want me to make another shares patch that balances them
14:32:15  <Rippsy> as in ctrl-click drag signals along the whole line
14:32:19  <peter1138> oh
14:32:21  <peter1138> yes
14:32:30  <Rippsy> what do you think to the same principle for convert
14:32:35  <TheJosh> when did they go in?
14:32:36  <peter1138> well i wrote trunk's version of it, based on the old patch
14:33:08  <TheJosh> there were some very good patches in the MiniIN i still miss! (autocomplete was one of them)
14:33:09  <Rippsy> convert-rail type that is
14:33:13  <peter1138> Rippsy: and yes, i already thought about that
14:33:15  <Rippsy> :)
14:33:32  <TheJosh> i would like to see 'convert all rail on map' or similar
14:33:41  <peter1138> that's just lazy
14:33:44  <TheJosh> better than dragging from one corner to the other
14:33:46  <Rippsy> only works if you have no trains in stations
14:33:50  <Rippsy> or depots even
14:34:01  <Rippsy> or maybe leave the depos
14:34:09  <Rippsy> so you can clone the trains after the convert
14:34:43  <peter1138> hmm, when autocomplete-converting, where do you stop?
14:34:45  <TheJosh> im going to bed
14:34:51  <peter1138> with signals it's obvious... at a junction
14:34:55  <TheJosh> goodnight
14:34:56  <Rippsy> peter
14:34:57  <Rippsy> You don't
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14:35:02  <Rippsy> you do all connected rail
14:35:05  <peter1138> ah, keep going
14:35:05  <peter1138> hmm
14:35:09  <Rippsy> except on squares where share diagonal rails
14:35:11  <Rippsy> with an invalid rail type
14:35:19  <peter1138> then i would need a stack to keep track of junctions
14:35:20  <Rippsy> which it should leave as old or throw an error somehow
14:37:03  <Rippsy> why would you need to keep track of junctions? surely it'll check if the current piece of track is already converted, and that would stop infinate loops?
14:37:53  <peter1138> well no
14:38:06  <peter1138> it would need to convert one direction
14:38:11  <peter1138> then go back and convert the other
14:38:19  <Rippsy> Ah fair enuff
14:38:28  <Rippsy> can't do a branch of and start running two processes for it at each junct then?
14:38:40  <peter1138> lol
14:38:52  <glx> peter1138: use recursion
14:38:59  <Rippsy> im just playing with idea's i've not wrote code in a LONG time :P
14:39:15  <peter1138> glx: *nod*, built-in 'stack'
14:39:40  <peter1138> ideas
14:42:17  <Timwi> RC2 seems to work with bridges
14:42:21  <Timwi> Thanks all
14:42:34  <Timwi> Another thing I just remembered: What is PBS?
14:42:44  <peter1138> something that doesn't exist
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14:42:47  <peter1138> it's all a lie
14:42:49  <Rippsy> :D
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14:43:05  <Smoovious> Path Based Signalling... which, afaik, is abandoned
14:43:16  <Timwi> I see
14:43:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a fairy tale :)
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14:43:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> it has not been abandoned, it has been discontinued, and the new approach has not been really started yet
14:44:22  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: it was abandoned (by the original author) before it was actually discontinued/remove from trunk
14:44:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, ok ;)
14:45:21  <Zavior> Bring it back! :<
14:45:25  <Sacro>
14:45:30  <glx> Zavior: code it :)
14:45:46  <Zavior> Can I use paint for that?
14:45:48  <Zavior> :o
14:46:11  <Sacro> also quite pretty
14:46:45  <Rippsy> that was random :D
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14:47:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> kinda looks a little too toy-ish
14:50:14  <Rippsy> I like it
14:50:24  <Rippsy> Although the curved track is making my eyes wonky a bit
14:51:21  <Smoovious> speaking of toy-ish... anyone hear any more about the legoland developmpent?
14:52:02  <Chicago_R_A> Have you followed the "brickland" thread in the OpenTTD graphics section?
14:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> Wolf01 is still on it, afaik
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14:56:15  <Nickman> hi all
14:56:16  <Smoovious> nope...  I don't follow web-forums that closely... besides not liking web-based forums in the first place, I have enough to keep up with my newsgroup and lists as it is
14:56:41  <Nickman> The link to the forum on the OpenTTD site needs to be change to link to OpenTTD subforum again :)
14:59:08  <Rubidium> where on the site?
15:00:03  <peter1138> Sacro: hmm, i recognise those buildings...
15:00:12  <Desolator> bump
15:00:36  <Sacro> peter1138: how strange
15:00:37  <peter1138> bump to you too
15:01:23  <Desolator> hi Rippsy
15:01:28  <Nickman> I see it has just been changed Rubidium?? :)
15:01:51  <glx> <Nickman> The link to the forum on the OpenTTD site needs to be change to link to OpenTTD subforum again :) <- it was done saturday
15:02:01  <Nickman> ah
15:02:06  <Rubidium> glx: lies
15:02:11  <Nickman> lol :p
15:02:16  <Desolator> lol
15:02:21  <Nickman> it wasn't fixed over here until just now?
15:02:23  <Rubidium> glx: was redirected
15:02:26  <glx> it wasn't already on site?
15:02:39  <Rubidium> and it wasn't on the website
15:03:09  <Timwi> OK I have a question about pre-signals now (I've just read about them) ...
15:03:14  <Timwi> I understand how this layout works:
15:03:30  <Timwi> I also understand how this works -- -- but I don't understand why that is "better" than the first. What is the advantage?
15:04:06  <Desolator> say train 1 goes to enter the station
15:04:20  <Rippsy> Lo Desolator
15:04:31  <Desolator> train 2 follows it but stops at the first signal and must wait for it to clear, if it breakes down, bad
15:04:45  <Desolator> but in the 2nd, train 2 waits shorter, thus is better
15:05:17  <Desolator> don't tell me you need proof
15:06:16  <Timwi> I'm sorry but I don't understand why train 2 has a shorter waiting time in the 2nd layout
15:06:33  <Timwi> As far as I can see it can start moving as soon as any of the platforms are free
15:06:51  <Rippsy> Query: exit.sav - when is this made, as its not made when i do 'exit' on my server :D
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15:08:26  <Desolator> Timwi: put trains running and see
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15:10:34  <Timwi> Desolator: Is it solely about trains breaking down?
15:10:38  <Rubidium> Timwi: the next train can only continue when the train in front it has completely passed the signal. In the second one this happens earlier because the trains have a higher speed when passing the signal closest to the entry (trains slow down considerable when entering the station)
15:10:44  <Rippsy>
15:10:47  <Rippsy> that looks ACE
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15:11:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10591 /extra/website/ (6 files in 3 dirs): [Website] -Change: several small changes that accumulated over time.
15:15:14  <Sacro> Rippsy: it'd be nice if it could intelligently merge bricks
15:15:18  <Timwi> Rubidium: Thanks for the explanation. I guess I really do have to try it to see. I'm finding it difficult to imagine that the slowdown upon entering the station outweighs the extra track enclosed by the entry and the combos.
15:15:58  <Sacro> also, i don't recall lego having an L brick
15:16:05  <Rippsy> gah, technicalities ;)
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15:16:37  <Chicago_R_A> There were "L" bricks, btw
15:16:50  <Chicago_R_A> They may not include them anymore (as it seems that most sets now use HUGE single pieces)...
15:16:55  <Chicago_R_A> ...but many older sets had them.
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15:24:06  <KUDr_wrk> [14:45:31] <TheJosh> even a signal far off can annoy YAPF << wtf?
15:25:36  <peter1138> Chicago_R_A: huge pieces suck :(
15:25:42  <peter1138> although they're stronger, heh
15:25:43  <Rubidium> can make YAPF behave unexpectedly (though correctly)
15:26:41  <Chicago_R_A> Peter:  Yea, I agree
15:26:55  <Chicago_R_A> The old castle sets used to take hours to build with thousands of pieces
15:27:05  <Chicago_R_A> Now there are only a few hundred pieces :(
15:28:50  <Rippsy> autosave_on_exit = true - but my server isn't saving on exit - any ideas?
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15:30:35  <glx> Rippsy: you don't have autosave/exit.sav?
15:30:46  <Rippsy> I do have one, but its not from the last time the server exited
15:30:54  <Rippsy> its 5 hours old
15:31:41  <Rippsy> so it has done it, but not the most recent shut down
15:31:44  <Rippsy> which is puzzling me
15:32:11  <glx> it's done if you exit from gui
15:32:32  <Rippsy> but not if i exit from cmd line?
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15:32:37  <glx> no
15:32:37  <Rippsy> so if im using -D it wont generate exit.sav?
15:32:39  <Rippsy> hmmm
15:32:58  <Rippsy> that explains why it has previously then
15:33:11  <Rippsy> i'll just have to set autosaves to a higher freq, and be careful when exiting then
15:33:30  <skidd13> Any osx dev here?
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15:36:44  <Timwi> Is it at all possible to display the "orders" window and the "details" window for a train at the same time? Whenever I open one of them, the other one disappears.
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15:38:49  <skidd13> Maybe someone other can answer my question: is the clock() function from time.h a c++ basic function?
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15:40:04  <marc-andre> hiho
15:40:15  <marc-andre> does someone have access on brianettas server?
15:41:47  <Timwi> The Wiki just crashed
15:42:09  <Sacro> is up
15:42:31  <Sacro> but the server isn't
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15:44:35  <marc-andre> Sacro: yes, that's why i ask
15:45:12  <marc-andre> brianetta's standard server is down, can someone who has access restart the server?
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15:49:18  <Sacro> marc-andre: only Brianetta has access...
15:49:53  <marc-andre> damn
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15:50:13  <Rippsy> Fearful timing imo
15:50:15  <marc-andre> Brianetta: yeah, just talking about you
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15:50:52  <marc-andre> Brianetta: is there a serious problem with the server?
15:50:54  <Brianetta> uh huh
15:50:59  <Brianetta> It's not running
15:51:06  <marc-andre> yes, that's why i ask
15:51:09  <marc-andre> XD
15:51:10  <Brianetta> I just wanted a few hours off.
15:51:16  <marc-andre> i see
15:51:27  <marc-andre> are the few hours off?
15:51:48  <blathijs> a few hours off what?
15:52:13  <Brianetta> Being paged, etc
15:53:03  <Rippsy> You get paged that much? -- * has 2nd thoughts about hosting several servers *
15:58:58  <marc-andre> Brianetta: so do you start the server soon again?
15:59:01  <Timwi> Thanks for fixing the server :)
15:59:07  <marc-andre> i just have now some minutes...
15:59:09  <Timwi> The Wiki appears to be back up
15:59:16  <Brianetta> Tonight.
15:59:21  <Brianetta> Not now, I'm at work.
16:00:39  <marc-andre> :(
16:00:57  <marc-andre> Brianetta: what do you use to control the server?
16:01:12  <marc-andre> i mean the pilot, where can i learn more about?
16:01:13  <Brianetta> autopilot
16:01:16  *** Mucht_ [] has joined #openttd
16:01:18  <Brianetta> In the forum
16:01:22  <marc-andre> thx
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16:09:19  <Chicago_R_A> Hi Rich
16:09:22  <RichK67> hi
16:09:23  <skidd13> Is a mod from the froum online, who is in the mood to split a thread?
16:10:13  <skidd13> Hi RichK67
16:10:35  <Digitalfox_Desktop> hi RichK67 :)
16:10:37  <RichK67> hi skidd13 - nice looking graphics recently
16:11:01  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I just tried your airport newgrf support.. It looks a great :)
16:11:12  <Digitalfox_Desktop> * a great thing
16:11:14  <RichK67> very very early days yet
16:11:20  <skidd13> :)
16:11:58  <Digitalfox_Desktop> yes, but since there wasn't any support at all, it's nice to see it coming :)
16:12:12  <RichK67> im going to see what i need to do to let the old and new ways of adding airports co-exist... currently the old way is.. err... "disabled" ;)
16:13:00  <Digitalfox_Desktop> A question RichK67, will this newgrf support also allow to have diffrent types of airports, i mean like the ones you have showed not yet in openttd?
16:13:12  <RichK67> did you spot the quirk on hangars? since the hangar detection is done by the graphic you click on, it doesnt recognise the newgrf graphic as a hangar!
16:13:33  <RichK67> yup - and totally design your own graphics for them too
16:13:41  <Digitalfox_Desktop> cool
16:14:19  <RichK67> more than that, this is designed for not just airports, but seaports, and road ports as well... whole idea is to extend FSM support to all these other station types
16:14:35  <Chicago_R_A> Cool :)
16:14:59  <RichK67> ie. a dock facility where boats queue up for their turn at the unloading bay :)
16:15:30  <Digitalfox_Desktop> But RichK67, this will still be based in newgrf set's in nfo coding right?
16:15:35  <RichK67> yup
16:15:57  <RichK67> so portable, customisable, etc.
16:16:34  <RichK67> TTDP doesnt have support / plans to support this yet, but there is a spec out there somewhere ... ;)
16:17:29  <Digitalfox_Desktop> And how would they made this newgrf specifications work in patch, i mean would they had to copy them..
16:18:28  <RichK67> well, the ppl from Patch ive spoken to are OK that there is nothing that doesnt seem possible, so if ive already implemented a spec, then they are likely to follow it
16:18:42  <Digitalfox_Desktop> oh ok :)
16:18:43  <RichK67> or not... ;)
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16:19:22  <Desolator> boom
16:19:26  <RichK67> main thing is to make it that airports can be designed and loaded by everyone else, rather than be coded by the coding team
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16:20:12  <Chicago_R_A> Good plan.
16:20:15  <RichK67> newgrf just gives flexibility on loading graphic sets along with rest of port info... ie. movement orders, state machine, etc.
16:25:29  <RichK67> anyway, at the moment, its all very experimental - there are a whole host of issues to resolve over how to proceed without breaking existing savegames... if i can get an FSM to load into our OTTD structures from a newgrf, and then for a savegame to safely reload it, then the 90% is done... (leaving the impossible 10% to work on ;) )
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16:26:07  <Chicago_R_A> For a feature like this, is the fear of breaking old savegames so great that it is worth using that as a criteria for progress?
16:26:31  <Chicago_R_A> Not to say that players wouldn't appreciate that - but I'd think that some features would require clean-breaks
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16:27:12  <RichK67> well, we have a working structure for airports already... it would be timewasting to throw that away, so i plan to reuse it where i can... the newgrf is just the loading mechanism
16:27:46  <Chicago_R_A> Understandable
16:28:19  <RichK67> callback support is a bit of an unknown to me... but other than that the rest is pretty much just defining what is already known/supported by our own stuff already
16:28:56  <RichK67> extending it to seaports and roadports will be interesting, but the aircraft_cmd.cpp is the guide there
16:31:10  <Smoovious> <RichK67> TTDP doesnt have support / plans to support this yet, but there is a spec out there somewhere ... ;) <--- ya know,  it'd be really nice to have a newgrf OTTD  supports but the patch doen't  yet...
16:32:09  <RichK67> yeah, my fun and games is that while developing the newgrfs, nforenum cant reformat them as it doesnt know the format
16:33:42  <Smoovious> a road station would be nice... put together a multi-tile bay that  many  trucks use like prototype... maybe even a full bus station
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16:34:00  <Wolf01> hello
16:34:09  <Smoovious> o/
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16:39:51  <RichK67> yup Smoovious - thats the idea... although my main thing is to have a) working airports, then b) multi-tile seaports
16:40:36  <alex__> im just wondering
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16:40:45  <alex__> im using the biggest airport
16:40:52  <alex__> (forgotten the name)
16:40:58  <Chicago_R_A> intercontinental
16:41:00  <alex__> and like the planes dont use the 2 runways to land
16:41:04  <alex__> yeah that one
16:41:10  <RichK67> ah - the small intercontinental (wait for the Schiphol... 6 runways!!)
16:42:04  <alex__> is that what your talking abour RichK67 on working airports?
16:42:09  <alex__> about*
16:42:49  <RichK67> nah - im creating a newgrf loading system to replace the hardcoding of airports we currently have... then the community can design their own
16:42:56  <RichK67> (and debug them!!)
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16:43:28  <alex__> cool :)
16:43:42  <alex__> another question
16:43:52  <RichK67> the intercontinental only uses the second landing runway if the first is already in use... if you throw 30+ aircraft at one, it should use both regularly
16:43:53  <alex__> why cant you build bridges ontop of tunnel entrances?
16:44:02  <alex__> RichK67, ok
16:44:44  <RichK67> alex__ - i think you can in the nightly
16:45:49  <RichK67> ok - hometime... catch ya soon
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16:48:44  <skidd13> Can someone of the dev's comment my performance meter patch:
16:49:06  <skidd13> please
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16:55:24  <Desolator> is there any chance of getting OpenTTD Updater into OTTD's SVN server?
16:57:28  <Sacro> is it cross platform?
16:57:41  <Desolator> win9x, win32, winvista
16:57:43  <Desolator> so no
16:57:51  <Desolator> unless you got luck with wine
16:57:53  <Sacro> port it to X-BOX
16:58:17  <Sacro> then you can have cross platform (the Microsoft way)
16:58:24  <narth> wine != cross platform...
16:58:26  <Sacro> what language is it in?
16:58:28  <Desolator> I don't tihnk there's any way to run it natively in anything other than Windows
16:58:32  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: You mean the One Microsoft Way
16:58:32  <Desolator> *think
16:58:37  <Sacro> Desolator: yes there is
16:58:46  <Desolator> I'l watching
16:58:47  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: Also, you have to discontinue win9x
16:58:58  <Sacro> Prof_Frink: ah yes
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17:01:04  <Sacro> i was thinking of writing a cross platform autoupdater myself
17:01:20  <Belugas> it looks well done, skidd13
17:01:36  <Belugas> but i was wondergin why you did not used the TIC/TOC method
17:01:43  *** McHawk [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:03:03  <skidd13> Belugas:
17:03:51  <KUDr> skidd13: what is this perf-meter good for? I don't see the point of measuring how often we trigger TICK
17:03:51  <Belugas> very good point :)
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17:05:34  <skidd13> KUDr: To check the performance of changed code. Surely you'll have to load the exactly same savegame. But it gives you a hint if you're on the right way. ;)
17:06:33  <KUDr> but you can see difference only if you have 100% cpu load or did i miss something?
17:06:50  *** narth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07:01  <KUDr> so you use FF during the measuring?
17:08:50  *** marc-andre [] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
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17:11:28  <skidd13> KUDr: so you use FF during the measuring? <- true
17:11:47  <Desolator> [19:55] <Desolator> Is there any chance of getting OpenTTD Updater into OTTD's SVN server? It supports only Windows 95 - Windows Vista and is GPL (as of next release).
17:12:49  <skidd13> KUDr: I tried to use it in normal mode. There I got some diffrences too, so I let it enabled.
17:13:22  <KUDr> skidd13: ok, then i understand - did you try to measure 'thread time'?
17:13:45  <KUDr> it is something that is not influenced by other programs running on the box
17:13:49  <Rippsy> peter1138, a little forum post birdie told me you'd got a MOTD style function on your servers but i can't find any posts about it, anychance you could elaborate :)
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17:15:08  <skidd13> Nope So other programs will affect the test. :(
17:15:20  <KUDr> ok
17:16:20  <KUDr> so i would only recommend to remove all calculations from gui code
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17:17:11  <KUDr> would you like to get it into trunk? Os is it supposed to stay as a patch forever?
17:17:26  <skidd13> The thing I worry about is the OS compatibility. I don't know how to get a sufficient timestamp on other OS than Linux and Windows.
17:17:39  <skidd13> KUDr: I'd like to see it in trunk :)
17:17:50  <KUDr> and what about others?
17:18:16  <KUDr> does it improve playability or doe it have any other value for regular user?
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17:18:41  <KUDr> or should it be allowen only for special builds?
17:18:51  <KUDr> like #define USE_PERF_METER
17:19:24  <KUDr> it is probably very good for devs
17:19:27  <skidd13> It is mor or less a kind of debug tool. And a cool comparison for mad designers. :)
17:19:58  <KUDr> so what about some simpler console version
17:20:11  <KUDr> for devs it would be sufficient
17:20:24  <KUDr> and one less window to worry about
17:21:05  <KUDr> i wonder how difficult it will be for me to port all GUI to the new one
17:21:06  <skidd13> I like my gui. It's small and handy, so it could be a tutorial for newbies.
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17:21:30  <KUDr> we have now so many dialogs and so bad designed
17:21:39  <KUDr> lot of logic inside gui
17:21:47  <KUDr> that it will be a real pain
17:22:04  <skidd13> I meant to split the calculation of the gui first. ;)
17:22:07  <KUDr> GUI code should contain only GUI code
17:22:18  <KUDr> yes, it will be needed
17:22:47  <KUDr> so make those functions you will use for manipulating perf values become methods
17:23:08  <KUDr> of that 'struct PerformanceMeter'
17:23:39  <KUDr> so no direct access to data from outside
17:24:13  <KUDr> and then we can have different implementations made later (easily)
17:24:28  <KUDr> and no gui change will be required
17:24:43  <KUDr> only different back-end
17:25:02  <KUDr> and i will make one for me using thread times
17:25:10  <skidd13> OK
17:25:28  <KUDr> but it is only my opinion
17:25:40  <KUDr> and as you already know i am not a god
17:25:53  <KUDr> so wait for other's responses
17:26:07  <KUDr> and then find your own way
17:26:24  *** Tino|Home is now known as TinoM
17:26:37  <skidd13> The split off from the GUI is still a nice solution.
17:27:13  <KUDr> if you will do that then you only need to convince other devs that trunk is the right place for it
17:27:33  <KUDr> and i can put it there and take responsibility for maintenance
17:27:40  <KUDr> because i like it
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17:29:25  <skidd13> :) Thanks
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17:37:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10592 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
17:37:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-16 19:35:30
17:37:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 4 fixed by tucalipe (4)
17:37:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 4 fixed by arnaullv (4)
17:37:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 7 fixed by knovak (7)
17:37:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 10 fixed, 7 changed by ThomasA (17)
17:37:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 4 fixed by habell (4)
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18:15:55  <Timwi> Since Trac is down, is there an easy way to obtain a language source file other than downloading the entire source?
18:18:00  <Ammler> Did you ever think about moving the source to
18:20:04  <Rubidium> Timwi: why would you want a single language source file?
18:20:55  <Rubidium> and you could use
18:22:06  <Rubidium> sourceforge is horribly slow and does (as far as I know) not give you control over pre and post commit hooks
18:22:51  <hylje> svn co svn://
18:23:04  <Rubidium> you can't checkout a single file
18:23:46  *** Nickman is now known as Nickman^Away
18:24:22  <hylje> really?
18:24:31  <Rubidium> try it
18:26:28  <hylje> what a silly limitation
18:26:35  <hylje> svn copy involves working copies
18:26:59  <Rubidium> svn co is checkout
18:27:15  <hylje> yes but somewhat related
18:28:32  <Rubidium> though svn export works, but only because it doesn't need to make the working copy
18:29:07  <hylje> i see
18:29:42  <Noldo> svn cat file > out.file ?
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18:53:54  <Tlustoch> I am surprised how many people from czech are here.
18:54:53  <Wolf01> some time ago there were a massive ammount of Dutchs, at least in ttf
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19:08:43  <Maarten> Not a lot of Americans though
19:10:12  <skidd13> KUDr: ping
19:10:41  <hylje> americans arent train nuts
19:10:49  <hylje> so we dont have a lot of them
19:15:28  <KUDr> skidd13: gimme 10 mins (eating)
19:15:36  <skidd13> no problem
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19:21:36  <Timwi> [19:21] <Rubidium> Timwi: why would you want a single language source file?          Because I want to improve the German translation, it's quite bad
19:21:46  <Timwi> I'm already working on it
19:22:50  <Rubidium> beter request access to the translator tool, because that's the way the translations have to be fixed
19:23:35  <Timwi> ?
19:23:41  <Timwi> Why can't I just edit the file?
19:23:54  <glx> you can but it will be only for yourself
19:23:55  <Timwi> The website suggests that if I wanted to create a new language I would edit the english.txt file
19:24:07  <Timwi> Why will it be only for myself?
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19:24:37  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Timwi:
19:24:42  <Timwi> Are you suggesting that the translations exist in some other format somewhere and the only way to change it there is via some weird tool?
19:25:25  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Weird tool? :\ No it's very easy and works great :)
19:25:43  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Also
19:26:02  <Timwi> OK, that website you linked to does not suggest that I can't send them the corrected txt file
19:26:29  <Timwi> Please tell me your system is well-designed enough that it can reinitialise from an input file
19:26:42  <Rubidium> it can
19:26:47  <Rubidium> *but*
19:26:53  <glx> but it doesn't like that
19:26:58  <Rubidium> it contains a lot of useful meta data and such
19:27:11  <Rubidium> and it is the only way translation fixes are going into trunk
19:27:44  <Timwi> Well anyway ... I'm improving the German translation, and it is up to you whether you want to harvest my work or not
19:28:18  <Timwi> I don't even mind if your existing translators want to check my changes
19:29:04  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Timwi: Why just don't you edit them at
19:29:21  <Timwi> Because I have already made hundreds of changes in my txt file
19:29:50  <Timwi> I can send you a diff if you like, but I'm not going to copy and paste them all individually into a web form. It was already enough work as it stands
19:30:41  <Timwi> Also, I can't find a way to edit the translation on that website. Do I need a login?
19:30:58  <glx> yes you need an account
19:31:16  <Timwi> "In order to be able to use the advanced features of WebTranslator, please log in."  So you consider translating stuff an "advanced feature" of the website?
19:31:44  <Timwi> Anyway
19:31:46  <Timwi> As I said
19:31:50  <glx> we don't want anybody playing with the strings
19:31:52  <Timwi> I will send you my file if you're interested
19:31:55  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I'm a portuguese translator, so i don't have anything to do with German translation... But you wanting things done in your way it's a not a good thing on a community :\
19:32:03  <Timwi> glx: Well clearly you also don't want anybody making suggestions
19:32:15  <glx> you can make suggestions
19:32:22  <Timwi> Digitalfox_Desktop: I don't want anything, I'm happy to use my translation just for myself
19:32:39  <Timwi> glx: Well my first suggestion would be to make it easier (read: NO LOGIN) to make suggestions
19:32:39  <glx> post them in and I'm sure it will be forwarded to a german translator
19:32:50  <Timwi> That's completely over the top.
19:33:22  <Timwi> I would make a suggestion to an individual string if I could type the new translation into a text box that is specifically for it. Anything that is more complex than this is going to detract all volunteer contributors
19:33:45  <Timwi> Just to make this clear: I am not complaining, I am trying to give constructive advice.
19:34:10  <JazzyJaffa> Could have fooled me
19:34:15  <Timwi> It is not important to me that my improvements go into trunk. If it is important to you, then you need to work for it, not me.
19:34:31  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Timwi:
19:34:36  <Digitalfox_Desktop> That's how it works
19:34:52  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Sorry use this
19:34:52  <glx> Timwi: there's a link in the WT2 main page to mail your suggestions to the WT2 author
19:35:23  <Timwi> I am already making suggestions here :)
19:35:29  <Timwi> If you don't want me to, then I'll shut up
19:35:55  <glx> well WT2 author is not in the channel currently so...
19:36:20  <Timwi> By the way! I like the fact that the navigational bar at the top has keyboard shortcuts. I see that so rarely on websites! Kudos to whoever added those :)
19:36:33  <Timwi> Oh, I see :) Sorry, for some reason I thought Digitalfox_Desktop was the author
19:36:35  <Rubidium> Timwi: the "problem" is that you are making suggestions to thin air, i.e. the author of WT2/the person that is responsible for all the translations is not here
19:36:46  <Timwi> OK, sorry, misunderstanding on my part
19:37:10  <KUDr> skidd13: pong (PM?)
19:37:34  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Timwi: miham is the author :)
19:37:52  <skidd13> KUDr: -> patch #21
19:38:18  <Timwi> OK, I've sent Miham an e-mail asking if he can import a diff
19:38:43  <Timwi> I apologise if I seemed aggressive, it wasn't my intention
19:39:05  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Timwi: No problem :)
19:39:08  <Timwi> I just get easily frustrated when people think volunteers will go through anything for them :)
19:39:57  <glx> we need to "protect" WT2 access to prevent dumb people to break anything
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19:40:49  <Prof_Frink> Or move to Launchpad and have even more translators
19:40:50  <Rubidium> not only dumb, but also vandals
19:40:54  <Timwi> As I said, my suggestion is not to turn it into a Wiki
19:41:17  <glx> Rubidium: vandals are dumb for me ;)
19:41:33  <Timwi> Ideally, visitors should be post changes which will then be treated as "suggestions", which a privileged user (a "translator") can then either accept or reject
19:41:45  <Timwi> I meant, should be able to post changes
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19:43:40  <Timwi> Oh ... I forgot to ask:
19:43:53  <Timwi> Is it possible for me to use my modified language file without having to recompile the source?
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19:44:25  <Rubidium> if you've got english.txt and strgen
19:46:12  <Timwi> Yay that works :) Thanks
19:51:07  <KUDr> skidd13: yes, looks much better. But still i see some pieces of code that are worth moving into methods
19:51:23  <KUDr> like: pm->activated = (pm->activated) ? false : true;
19:51:26  <KUDr> and so
19:51:36  <KUDr> still it is not abstract
19:51:46  <KUDr> (the perf meter itself)
19:52:01  <glx> pm->activated ^= true;
19:52:03  <KUDr> so it can't be enhanced by different measuring methods
19:52:22  <glx> or pm->activated = !pm->activated;
19:53:11  <KUDr> doesn't matter (it should not be in the GUI code)
19:53:43  <KUDr> if there will be additional action needed for specific perf-meter, you must change it inGUI
19:53:51  <KUDr> GUI should stay only GUI
19:53:59  <KUDr> not like current OTTD
19:55:03  <skidd13> OK I'll splitt more.
19:55:17  <KUDr> sorry if i make you unhappy
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19:55:25  <KUDr> good progress up to now
19:55:28  <skidd13> no problem
19:55:35  <Agone> hi all
19:55:53  <KUDr> hi
19:57:04  <Agone> i'm looking for help, i have trouble getting my dedicated server playable...
19:58:29  <KUDr> can you be more specific?
19:58:45  <KUDr> maybe somebody here can help you then
19:59:35  <Agone> well i have configured a dyndns service, i modified the openttd.cfg settings, the server appears on the website list but not in the game list
20:00:11  <Rubidium> Agone: let me guess, you dedicated server is behind a DSL/cable router?
20:00:18  <glx> others can see it but you can't ?
20:00:39  <Agone> ya true Rubidium
20:00:50  <Rubidium> if so, it's a common router problem
20:00:50  <Agone> i also modified the NAT rules
20:01:12  <Rubidium> the router only forwards the OTTD port from the external network to the internal network
20:01:27  <Rubidium> but because you are on the internal network, the router doesn't forward it
20:02:04  <Agone> :s
20:02:36  <glx> you can connect to your server using it's internal IP
20:03:13  <Agone> yup but... others ?
20:03:14  <Rubidium> however, if it shows on, it is accessible for everyone (i.e. your router is set up correctly)
20:03:50  <Agone> Rubidium> it does appears on, look:
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20:04:35  <Agone> but it's not reachable from the game :/
20:05:02  <Rubidium> it is not reachable for YOU, because of the beforementioned router problem
20:05:22  <glx> Agone: use a freebox ;)
20:05:39  <Agone> i actually use a freebox :p
20:08:50  <glx> when I host a server behind my freebox I can see it
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20:14:03  <Desolator> bump
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20:21:04  <Rippsy> - Weee :)
20:21:41  <Agone> too bad, yours works :s
20:21:50  <Rippsy> I set mine up last week,
20:21:52  <Desolator> what newgrfs?
20:21:54  <Rippsy> none
20:21:58  <Desolator> crap...
20:22:00  <Rippsy> make sure your forwarding udp and tcp
20:22:03  <Agone> Desolator> only planeset
20:22:08  <Desolator> more crap
20:22:10  <Agone> Rippsy> i do
20:22:19  <Desolator> why not av8
20:22:20  <Desolator> ?
20:22:24  <glx> it is accessible from outside
20:22:27  <Rippsy> if udp and tcp are both forwarded to the internal IP address where you are hosting the server it should be fine
20:22:29  <Rippsy> as glx just said
20:22:34  <Rippsy> its just you will see it on lant
20:22:35  <Rippsy> *lan
20:22:49  <Rippsy> Desolator, i've just not had time to find some grf's to use yet tbh
20:22:54  <Rippsy> once I finish setting up my servers i'll host some
20:23:01  <Desolator> I can send ya my collection
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20:23:08  <Rippsy> Naww i'll choose my own :)
20:23:18  <Rippsy> i want to know how peter1138 setup a welcome msg on his server before I start adding more stuff
20:23:29  <glx> but the weird thing is that I use the same modem, and I can see my server when I start one
20:23:36  <Desolator> Brian's autopilot?
20:23:50  <Rubidium> glx: same modem? you are 100% sure of that?
20:24:08  <Desolator> Rippsy: and is it running OTTD Updater? (:P)
20:24:11  <Rubidium> I know of several DSL modems that were "the same", but actually were internally totally different
20:24:22  <Agone> added my serveur as a LAN serveur... i can connect to it
20:24:32  <Rippsy> it will be tomorrow :)
20:24:33  <glx> but the firmware is the same
20:24:41  <Rippsy> naww Desolator, don't want to run autopilot
20:24:51  <Rippsy> Got my own in the works which is going to use PHP
20:24:52  <Desolator> y not?
20:24:55  <Rippsy> so its platform independant
20:24:57  <Desolator> oh
20:25:10  <Rippsy> still investigating things for it though
20:25:10  <Rippsy> :)
20:25:11  <Rubidium> Rippsy: and autopilot isn't?
20:25:20  <Rippsy> Rubidium, expect isn't
20:25:35  <Rippsy> or at least I found it damn awkward :)
20:25:38  <Rippsy> im still playing around
20:25:56  <Rubidium> it works on Windows and Linux
20:26:09  <Rubidium> it probably doesn't on MorphOS, but who cares?
20:26:10  <Prof_Frink> Rippsy: Just write a one-line perl script
20:26:30  <Rippsy> I want other things as well though :)
20:26:48  <Rippsy> as I said, still investigating
20:29:18  <Agone> problem solved, thx glx
20:30:08  <Agone> cya in the game all...
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20:45:06  <Rippsy> Prof_Frink, to do what?
20:45:23  <Rippsy> just echo the console out?
20:45:26  <Prof_Frink> Rippsy: Everything.
20:45:28  <Rippsy> lol
20:45:29  <Rippsy> :D
20:45:33  <Rippsy> perls the devil ;)
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21:01:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10593 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp water_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#1038]: one could not remove locks that were build in a (very) old version of OpenTTD.
21:03:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> <Smoovious> a road station would be nice... put together a multi-tile bay that  many  trucks use like prototype... maybe even a full bus station <- a 2x2 turning station for trams \o/
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21:11:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10594 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (airport_gui.cpp station_cmd.cpp): [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: restored original airport placement functionality. You can now place an airport using newgrf, or using original method.
21:13:00  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:18:53  <Murray-Mint> hey Rippsy
21:19:41  <Rippsy> lo
21:19:44  <Rippsy> invasion tbh
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21:22:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10595 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (85 files in 9 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r10559-10593
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21:28:48  <SmatZ> bye all, tommorow I am leaving to Italia ...
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21:32:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10596 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/airport_gui.cpp:
21:32:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: missed move of SetDParam into strings.h.
21:32:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Note to self: recompile after sync with trunk, even if no conflicts. ;)
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21:44:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10597 /branches/NewGRF_ports/projects/openttd_vs80.vcproj: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix r10595: forgot one project file
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22:02:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> !calc ibase=16;1000
22:02:31  <_42_> Eddi|zuHause2: 4096;
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22:48:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10598 /branches/NewGRF_ports/bin/data/rb_airport2.grf: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Modified rb_airport2.grf to use company colours on buildings.
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22:51:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: richk * r10599 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/station_cmd.cpp:
22:51:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Updated RemoveAirport function to work with either old or new style airport placements.
22:51:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: WARNING: this has highlighted bug where IsRailwayStation returns true for any
22:51:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: graphic with id 0..7. So custom layouts trigger the wrong delete routine. To
22:51:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: test; delete click on tower to trigger bug. Normal airport delete works OK
22:51:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: clicking on helipad.
23:11:24  <Sacro> :o
23:11:28  <Sacro> HE'S BACK! :D
23:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> HIDE EVERYBODY! :p
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23:17:17  * Sacro hides Eddi|zuHause2 under a bucket
23:18:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, my system is acting up, and i can't figure out, why...
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23:48:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10600 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Codechange: code-stylising the gui switch-case code
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23:55:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10601 /trunk/ (17 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: store (and use) the type of stations instead of hardcoding station types by graphics IDs.

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