Log for #openttd on 17th July 2007:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:56  <Phazorx> is crash in tunnel resolved?
00:03:17  <Rubidium> no
00:03:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10602 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (19 files in 5 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r10593:10601.
00:03:56  <Phazorx> hmm... sucks :|
00:04:20  <Rubidium> yup, but I've got no idea how to solve it and the person who has is very busy
00:04:36  <Phazorx> what's the root of the issue?
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06:47:05  <olol> lol
06:47:42  <olol> hey
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06:56:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10603 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp roadveh_gui.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange: avoid direct access to _engine_info
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08:19:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10604 /trunk/src/table/build_industry.h: -Fix [FS#1044] (r9866): some industries produced cargo they should not be producing, which would result in the industry offering invalid cargo to a station resulting in crashes..
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10:21:38  <Nickman> For some reason the newer nightlies (r10559 for example) runs very slow on my computer...
10:21:41  <Nickman> even the starting screen
10:22:09  <Nickman> but the NoAi branch (r10582) is running very smooth
10:22:13  <Nickman> what could be causing this?
10:24:38  <Eddi|zuHause> made an unoptimised/debug build?
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10:27:31  <Nickman> downloaded the nightlies from the site so...
10:28:07  <Rubidium> what nightly exactly? (OS)
10:28:23  <Nickman> Win32
10:28:25  <Nickman> On vista
10:28:31  <Nickman> used to work fine before so...
10:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> what if you compile yourself?
10:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (e.g. with buildottd)
10:31:01  <Rubidium> maybe his nightly uses (for some reason unknown to me) SDL instead of GDI
10:31:18  <Nickman> what you mean Rubidium?
10:31:36  <Nickman> I'll compile my own version from trunk, lets see
10:31:50  <Rubidium> if you start the nightly with openttd -v gdi (or -v win32) don't know exactly, does it perform better?
10:32:04  <Nickman> I'll try
10:32:39  <Nickman> omg, I found it :D, stupid me
10:32:50  <Nickman> I had the 32 bit blitter activated in my shortcut
10:32:55  <Nickman> I forgot all about that :D
10:33:11  <Nickman> it makes the game run pretty slow while it doesn't need to do anything :p
10:33:13  <Nickman> wierd
10:33:25  <Nickman> thanks anyway for the help guys!
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14:01:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the new monitor is great :)
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14:06:59  <Adriaan> hey
14:07:05  <Adriaan> i dont know if this is a known way
14:07:16  <alex_> ok
14:07:24  <Adriaan> but if you want to bypass the city reglements
14:07:31  <Adriaan> aka you cannot build in that city
14:07:44  <Adriaan> i just plant extremely much trees around the city
14:07:51  <Adriaan> and then build the station/whatever in these trees
14:07:59  <Adriaan> the city doesnt complain then
14:08:25  <Adriaan> someone experienced the same?
14:08:29  <Belugas> it is indeed a known way :)
14:08:55  <Adriaan> ah cool :)
14:09:05  <Belugas> congratulations of finding it on your own :)
14:09:21  <Adriaan> haha thanks
14:09:35  <Adriaan> are there other suck hacks?
14:10:05  <Adriaan> *such
14:10:07  <Adriaan> heh
14:11:08  <Digitalfox_Desktop> The unrealistic way, is that if destroy every tree in a town and build the same number you get more good reputation, but it's also true in real life that a company that invests in nature also gets good reputation in local or national authorities :)
14:11:13  <Belugas> not really a hack, by the way.  Just a means to appeal the city
14:12:23  <peter1138> cities like trees
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14:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a suggestion regarding that, if rating is too low, disallow removing trees!
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14:31:24  <hylje> :>
14:31:40  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. if you want to remove a tree, you have to plant one elsewhere
14:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> )
14:31:49  <DeGhosty> lol
14:31:51  <alex_> thats stupid
14:31:54  <DeGhosty> agree
14:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no it's not
14:32:07  <alex_> im not going to build fucking tress everywhr
14:32:09  <alex_> this is openttdf
14:32:22  <alex_> not open-build-a-garden
14:32:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it removes the cheat that you can cut trees at the lowest rating, which is "for free"
14:32:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and then build new trees geting more reputation than you ever had before
14:33:21  <DeGhosty> that's poor man's trick
14:33:26  <DeGhosty> what's wrong with thaT?
14:33:43  <DeGhosty> you don't have to do it if you don' want :)
14:33:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a cheat that totally undermines the whole reputation system
14:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> make a real cheat "ignore town ratings", and balance the system
14:34:41  <JazzyJaffa> Hi, Is there any easy was to find out if an MP_STATION tile is the water end of a dock?
14:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause> JazzyJaffa: richk is messing around with stations currently
14:36:14  <JazzyJaffa> I know there are plans afoot to make docks have queues etc
14:36:17  <JazzyJaffa> pretty cool
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14:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but that's probably a 0.7+ feature...
14:37:01  <JazzyJaffa> I just need to know if a station tile is a dock
14:37:24  <JazzyJaffa> I'll prob have to do it the hard way
14:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no map accessor for that?
14:38:40  <JazzyJaffa> Doesn't look like it, I might be missing something though
14:39:38  <Tlustoch> I have a question :-)
14:40:17  <Tlustoch> When I have 2 trains in station waiting for example for coal, why isn't first one loaded and then the second one? Why does it load both at once??
14:43:42  <Hendikins> Because you're not using the improved loading algorithm?
14:43:56  <DeGhosty> because it's faster
14:43:56  <DeGhosty> :)
14:44:05  <DeGhosty> if you have more then ur train capacity
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14:46:19  <JazzyJaffa> Tlustoch:
14:46:23  <Tlustoch> Oh I see the option now.
14:47:43  <Tlustoch> And what about passengers (where I do not use "load")?
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14:58:24  <Tlustoch> How do I compile game without squirrel?
14:59:36  <Belugas> you can use trunk for that :)
15:00:12  <Tlustoch> But I need version with AI API
15:01:38  <glx> why don't you want squirrel?
15:02:11  <Tlustoch> I need C++
15:02:28  <glx> both are usable in NoAI
15:02:58  <Tlustoch> But why should I compile squirrel again and again when I will not need it?
15:03:21  <glx> it's compiled only once if no files are changed in it
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15:05:56  <Sacro>
15:07:48  <hylje> whaaaaaaaat
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15:18:07  <JazzyJaffa> Looks like global pathfinding for ships is working!
15:18:23  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Sacro: What the hell is that KB??
15:18:47  <Sacro> Digitalfox_Desktop: not entirely sure...
15:19:27  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I've seen some strange things at microsoft, but that is one of the fews that makes say WHAT...
15:21:14  <JazzyJaffa> knowledge base I think
15:22:20  <Digitalfox_Notebook> JazzyJaffa: We know that, the point is in what the KB has...
15:23:34  <Digitalfox_Notebook> I receive from six on six months 13 CD's from KB of microsoft, send by them.. Gonna check to see if that KB is there..
15:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> "ACHTUNG: Der folgende Knowledge Base Artikel wurde durch ein maschinelles Übersetzungssystem ohne jegliche menschliche Mitwirkung übersetzt." <- lmao :p
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15:29:38  <Digitalfox_Notebook> Eddi|zuHause: But in English there were no "translated by a machine translation system without any human co-operation." I've read it in English in My desktop and in Portuguese in my notebook ( it differs the language based on your regional location configuration)
15:30:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know, but the thing is why they do that at all :p
15:30:41  <Eddi|zuHause> machine translations are more often than not worse to understand than the original
15:30:57  <Digitalfox_Notebook> true :)
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15:31:55  <Digitalfox_Notebook> Oh shit 4:31 PM and haven't had lunch yet..  -bye..
15:32:07  <Noldo_> it happens
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15:47:11  <Tlustoch> Where do I find data type defition? For example TileIndex?
15:47:42  <glx> usually in hearders
15:47:45  <glx> $headers
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15:56:17  <Timwi> Hi!
15:56:21  <Timwi> Any hardcore developers around? :))
15:56:43  <JazzyJaffa> Tlustoch: grep is where you fin most things
15:56:46  <Timwi> Suppose I wanted to translate OpenTTD into a new language, but it doesn't display a particular character. How hard would it be for me to add that character to the game?
15:57:24  <glx> use a font
15:58:39  <Timwi> Where is the font stored?
15:58:48  <glx> in openttd.cfg
15:59:11  <Timwi> No, I mean the actual font :)
15:59:21  <glx> default "font" is sprites in original TTD files
15:59:23  <Timwi> Suppose I actually want to augment OpenTTD's own font with that one missing character
15:59:33  <Timwi> Oh, I see
15:59:41  <Timwi> Has anyone ever tried to make a lookalike font then? :)
15:59:47  <glx> and now we don't add any sprites as you can use fonts
16:00:25  <peter1138> i've got a look-a-like of the small font
16:00:27  <peter1138> in bdf format
16:00:45  <peter1138> no reason why it couldn't be done for the larger fonts too
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16:04:17  <Timwi> I get the message:
16:04:18  <Timwi> Unable to use 'Zwonk' for large font, FreeType reported error 0x1, using sprite font instead
16:04:25  <Timwi> Does that mean it doesn't support TTF?
16:04:26  <skidd13> KUDr: ping
16:05:02  <Rubidium> Timwi: what OS?
16:05:06  <Timwi> Win2k
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16:05:22  <izhirahider> is it a known issue trains crossing one on top of the other one (one on a bridge, the other on the ground), the top one doing some flickering?
16:05:41  <Rubidium> izhirahider: yes
16:05:53  <Rubidium> Timwi: is that font registered with windows?
16:06:27  <Timwi> I fixed it :) The complete name of the font is "Zwonk Standard", not just "Zwonk"... which is weird, because I called it Zwonk :-)))
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16:08:04  <izhirahider> Rubidium, ok, thanks
16:08:22  <Timwi> Does it not support any anti-aliasing?
16:08:36  <Rubidium> with the 8bpp blitter it doesn't
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16:10:10  <Timwi> Hm, OK... can I tell it to use the font in boldface?
16:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "Zwonk Bold"?
16:10:35  <Timwi> There is no explicit Bold version of Zwonk...
16:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> have you actually tried it?
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16:11:43  <Timwi> Have now
16:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and?
16:12:08  <Timwi> It works with "Verdana Fett" (where Fett is Bold in German), but not "Zwonk Fett" -- and indeed Verdana Fett is listed in C:\winnt\fonts, but Zwonk Fett is not
16:12:38  <Timwi> Which is because Verdana Fett is actually a separate font file, but Zwonk is bolded "artificially" by Windows
16:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then i don't know any further
16:13:09  <Timwi> I guess I'll just have to make Zwonk Bold. :-))
16:13:30  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a zwonk anyway?
16:13:39  <Timwi> It's my font
16:13:45  <Timwi> It looks as crazy as it sounds
16:13:48  <Belugas> it's a wonk with depth :D
16:13:53  <Timwi> Haha :-)
16:15:20  <Timwi> OK, it looks like Verdana works OK for the medium and large font, but the small_font would definitely need some anti-aliasing :/
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16:16:22  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of silly characters do you want to display anyway?
16:16:58  <Timwi> I introduced a friend of mine to OpenTTD and now he's considering translating it into his own conlang.
16:17:19  <peter1138> you need to separate bold with a comma
16:17:34  <Timwi> peter1138: aaah! Thanks, I'll try that
16:17:36  <peter1138> sometimes
16:17:43  <Timwi> So you mean I should put  "Zwonk Standard, bold"?
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16:18:48  <Timwi> Hm, nope, that doesn't work either
16:19:11  <Rubidium> then freetype doesn't know how to make it bold
16:19:17  <Timwi> But anyway -- to use Zwonk was just a crazy idea ... it works fine with Verdana. I'm only struggling with the small_font now, because it is too small for ANY font to be suitable :/
16:19:46  <Rubidium> you could increase the font size slightly
16:19:58  <Timwi> Yeah I know
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16:20:51  <Timwi> Hm, nope, doesn't look nice. I get the impression, to be honest, that FreeType is not very good... the rendering is rather poor
16:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> or use the small font of peter1138's, and extend it with some special characters (or specify them in the character translation table to be replaced with standard characters)
16:21:24  <Rubidium> the problem is you can't do antialiasing in a 8 bit paletted environment
16:21:38  <Timwi> Yes, I understand, but it seems that FreeType can't do hinting either
16:21:56  <Timwi> The K (capital) looks like an X...
16:22:01  <Rubidium> Timwi: how would hinting work?
16:22:17  <KUDr_wrk> skidd13: KUDr will be around 19:00 CET
16:22:36  <Timwi>  (doesn't say very much unforutnately)
16:23:20  <Timwi> To be honest I'm tempted to just augment the raster font that comes with the game ... would that be difficult?
16:23:30  <Timwi> Would I need to recompile the game for that?
16:23:32  <Rubidium> as you can see in that image they use aliasing
16:23:57  <Timwi> Rubidium: The *entire* image uses aliasing. But only one of the two rows uses hinting
16:24:35  <Rubidium> I see it makes the font "fatter"
16:24:45  <Timwi> Here is a screenshot showing my first experiments with adding hinting to a font.
16:24:58  <Timwi> Rubidium: It makes the font less fat actually, it's the bottom one that uses hinting
16:25:28  <Rubidium> stupid caption
16:25:31  <Timwi> What it does is it aligns the "lines" that each letter is made up of, onto pixel boundaries. That prevents this grey blurring
16:26:09  <Rubidium> but the characters are already pixel aligned when we draw them
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16:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so if freetype can do that it's all a matter of providing the correct parameter, isn't it?
16:26:27  <peter1138> that's why i made a bdf of the small font
16:27:09  <Timwi> Rubidium: It's a bit difficult to explain what hinting really means. :/
16:27:31  <Timwi> Eddi: Well my theory is that FreeType can't do it, but I may be wrong
16:27:43  <Timwi> peter1138: Is bdf bitmap-based?
16:27:46  <Timwi> i.e. not vectors
16:27:56  <Rubidium> Timwi: there are some legal issues with the hinting code in freetype IIRC
16:28:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Timwi: the wikipedia article said freetype can do it
16:28:26  <Timwi> I know that there are some patents (with IBM or something), but I live in Europe and the patents do not apply here :-p
16:28:31  <peter1138> Timwi: yes
16:28:35  <Timwi> Eddi: I see
16:28:52  <Timwi> peter1138: OK, where can I get the font, and how can I edit it so that I can add new characters? :)
16:28:55  <Rubidium> so you've compiled libfreetype yourself?
16:29:01  <peter1138>
16:29:06  <peter1138> i used xbdfedit
16:29:14  <Timwi> Whoa, a text format o.O
16:29:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not sound like a windows program :p
16:29:37  <peter1138> no, it's not
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16:30:19  <Timwi> It's OK, I'll try to find an editor myself
16:30:43  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I just build a bank using last nightly, and tried to use the production values change cheat, but it doesn't work on banks... :(
16:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> reminds me of that wtf contest, where one guy sent in a program that took the shape definitions from a file in plain english... "a Zero is a Circle" etc.
16:31:25  <Digitalfox_Desktop> By design or bug?
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16:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it's an undocumented feature, Digitalfox_Desktop... :)
16:33:47  <Timwi> peter1138: Thanks, the font seems to work
16:33:52  <Timwi> However, it has a slight problem :))
16:34:04  <peter1138> slight? heh
16:34:12  <Timwi> The right margin on all the umlauts (ä ö ü) are one pixel too large
16:34:15  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: that was nice :)
16:34:51  <peter1138> btw, any bitmap font supported by freetype will work
16:34:52  *** skidd13 is now known as skidd13|dinner
16:34:58  <peter1138> i used bdf because i had a bdf editor, heh
16:34:59  <Tlustoch> How do I build rails with AI API??
16:35:01  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Eddi|zuHause: "undocumented feature" what does that mean?? :)
16:35:13  <peter1138> it's a feature that is not documented
16:35:46  <Rubidium> Tlustoch: you don't as that part of the API isn't implemented (yet)
16:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it means there is a functional divergence between the technical and the natural description of the behaviour
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16:38:13  <Tlustoch> *SHOCKED*
16:38:21  <Tlustoch> I hate cars :-)
16:38:28  <Tlustoch> When it will be implemented??
16:39:01  <peter1138> when it's ready
16:39:20  <peter1138> hmm
16:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain is scared of rails :)
16:39:33  <peter1138> 1337 list admin request(s) waiting
16:39:44  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
16:40:20  <Rubidium> Tlustoch: when all the stuff is ready to make a proper road AI/aircraft AI
16:41:53  <Tlustoch> That's waste of time. You will need better pathfinder for trains, so if you will make just a good one for cars it will be useless.
16:43:09  <Rubidium> building a good rail network is way way more complicated and needs much much more API, so the decision has been made to first implement/test everything with road vehicles and then extend it to the other vehicles types
16:44:26  <Rubidium> at the moment it is even impossible to make a proper pathfinder as it has no knowledge of the map (heights, slopes etc)
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16:44:36  <Wolf01> hello
16:44:36  <Rubidium> nor can it build bridges/tunnels
16:45:05  <Tlustoch> I think that making reasonable pathfinder is easy :-)
16:45:16  <Tlustoch> Especially for cars
16:45:34  <Rubidium> it's about making a pathfinder for roads
16:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the best idea would be to implement hooks into YAPF
16:45:47  <Wolf01> we need a pathfinder for ships!
16:46:11  <Rubidium> Wolf01: there already are three
16:46:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no, we need to optimise the current ship pathfinder a little more
16:46:35  <KUDr_wrk> and fourth is in development
16:46:52  <Wolf01> or at least a system to give orders without buoys, which should be located automatically
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16:47:09  <KUDr_wrk> Wolf01 look at the forums
16:47:23  *** skidd13|dinner is now known as skidd13
16:47:30  <KUDr_wrk> JazzyJaffa is working on it
16:48:06  <KUDr_wrk> skidd13: bit later than 19:00...
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16:48:18  <KUDr_wrk> still at work
16:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you have 12 minutes :p
16:48:35  <KUDr_wrk> not enough
16:49:22  <skidd13> maybe later ... want to cycle a bit, weather is nice outside
16:51:09  <skidd13> will PM you the stuff then. CYA
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16:59:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10605 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix [FS#1046]: also OpenBSD does not know wchar. Patch by Matthias.
17:06:46  *** Digitalfox_Notebook [~chatzilla@] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox]]
17:07:42  <hylje> heh, someone is using one's OTTD folder for porn
17:10:21  <Tlustoch> I just made AI that builds random straight road in the middle of the map :-)
17:10:28  <Tlustoch> It's not that difficult.
17:10:47  <Tlustoch> I just have to get into it because I didn't write code for some time.
17:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm... ice cream with blackberries, delicious :)
17:14:47  *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
17:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> damn, hylje figured me out :p
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17:20:53  <hylje> mwahaha
17:21:27  <Tlustoch> What about stupid pathfinder? Does it do something?
17:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there is documentation about what it does
17:23:18  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: so am I
17:23:20  <hylje> so we have a Stupid Pathfinder too?
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17:23:39  <Rubidium> hylje: NoAI API (for building roads)
17:24:28  <hylje> oh
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18:12:07  <Timwi> peter1138
18:12:09  <Timwi> peter1138? :)
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18:25:36  <sartsj> if i control+c the dedicated server to kill it, does it write the config it WAS running back to the openttd.cfg?
18:26:11  <peter1138> no
18:26:18  <peter1138> i think
18:26:20  <peter1138> er
18:27:06  <sartsj> well if i edit the cfg file, and then kill it to start it again, it reverts back to the config it was running
18:27:09  <sartsj> at least it seems like that
18:27:46  <sartsj> i've had this problem before
18:28:26  <Rubidium> then it apparantly saves on CTRL-c
18:28:39  <sartsj> you dont know? :)
18:29:21  <Rubidium> no
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18:30:32  <Rubidium> I don't know every and all of the lines of code of OTTD
18:30:40  <Rubidium> and I think nobody actually does
18:30:49  <peter1138> we could know, by looking it up, if it became important :)
18:31:29  *** Timwi is now known as Timwi-FlownAway
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18:31:49  <Rubidium> but I suspect it behaves in the same way as the GUI of OTTD does, i.e. handling the CTRL-c gracefully
18:31:50  <Timwi-FlownAway> o.O
18:31:52  *** Timwi-FlownAway is now known as Timwi-Away
18:31:54  <Timwi-Away> :-p
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19:14:29  <Ailure> Start date:  	2050-01-01
19:14:29  *** Tlustoch [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:14:29  <Ailure> Current date: 	1981-08-20
19:14:33  <Ailure>
19:14:35  <Ailure> Back to the future?
19:14:37  <Ailure> D:
19:14:44  <Ailure> I saw this in the last game I hosted too
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19:15:17  <peter1138> hehe
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19:22:00  <Thunder> uhm hi, i just found openttd and i wanted to host a dedicated server on my root. i looked up the wiki tutorial but the commandline with the -d didnt work out for me.. anyone may tell me if i missed something?
19:23:43  <Rubidium> -d is for debugging
19:23:50  <Rubidium> -D is for the dedicated server
19:24:01  <Thunder> awww
19:24:07  <Thunder> missed the case sens :D
19:24:09  <Thunder> thank you
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19:24:32  <Thunder> there it is :)
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19:53:11  <Timwi> OK, I have a problem with translating the game, any developers present who know how the {STRING}s are substituted?
19:54:29  <glx> they are replaced by another string
19:54:37  <Timwi> yes, in my case the wrong string
19:54:47  <Timwi> Shall I elaborate?
19:55:04  <Timwi> We have the following two strings:
19:55:04  <Timwi> STR_000F_PASSENGERS                                             :Passengers
19:55:07  <Timwi> and
19:55:07  <Timwi> STR_002F_PASSENGER                                              :Passenger
19:55:26  <Timwi> The string I'm trying to translate is STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED
19:55:26  <Timwi> STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED                               :{BLACK}{BIGFONT}Offer of subsidy expired:{}{}{STRING} from {STRING2} to {STRING2} will now not attract a subsidy.
19:55:51  <Timwi> The problem is that the first {STRING} is always replaced with STR_000F_PASSENGERS, but I need STR_002F_PASSENGER in this case.
19:56:30  <glx> why?
19:56:38  <Timwi> All the other subsidy-related strings use the right string
19:57:02  <peter1138> Passengers from Foo to Bar will now not attract a subsidy
19:57:08  <peter1138> Passenger from Foo to Bar will now not attract a subsidy
19:57:13  <peter1138> the latter makes no sense ;p
19:57:14  <Timwi> Yes, I need it to say "passenger service"
19:57:21  <Timwi> Like all the other ones
19:58:28  <Timwi> I noticed that in the others it is possible to substitute the "wrong" one by using {STRING2} instead of {STRING} or {STRING} instead of {STATION} etc. It's quite confusing, there seems to be no consistency
19:59:21  <peter1138> there is a method to its madness
19:59:30  <Timwi> Well if someone could explain it that would be nice :)
19:59:36  <Timwi> Or at least tell me how I can use "passenger" in this sentence
19:59:39  <peter1138> you can't
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20:00:03  <Timwi> Why did the developers make it possible to use the wrong string in the others, but not in this one?
20:00:20  <Timwi> And what do I need to change in the source to make it possible :))
20:01:56  <Timwi> I notice the following lines:
20:01:56  <Timwi> 			AddNewsItem(STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED, NEWS_FLAGS(NM_NORMAL, NF_TILE, NT_SUBSIDIES, 0), pair.a, pair.b);
20:01:57  <Timwi> and
20:01:59  <Timwi> 				AddNewsItem(STR_202F_SUBSIDY_WITHDRAWN_SERVICE, NEWS_FLAGS(NM_NORMAL, NF_TILE, NT_SUBSIDIES, 0), pair.a, pair.b);
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20:02:07  <Timwi> The parameters are all the same!!!
20:02:18  <Timwi> What tells it to use the other string? :/
20:02:31  <peter1138> the SetDParams before that
20:04:30  <Timwi> You mean 				pair = SetupSubsidyDecodeParam(s, 1);
20:04:31  <Timwi> ?
20:04:38  <Timwi> It has the same parameters on both calls as well
20:04:44  <glx> yes 1 means use plural
20:04:50  <glx> 0 means use singular
20:04:58  *** raimar2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:05:45  <Timwi> Argh
20:05:51  <Timwi> But this has nothing to do with singular or plural...
20:05:56  <Timwi> Welll... it does... but ...
20:06:10  <peter1138> what language are you doing?
20:07:19  <Timwi> German
20:07:50  <Timwi> I want to understand this independently of the language though
20:08:06  <peter1138> heh, german is 100% complete, apparently
20:08:10  <Timwi> I want to understand why it uses the correct string in STR_202F_SUBSIDY_WITHDRAWN_SERVICE but not in STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED despite the fact that they seem to use the same parameters in the code
20:08:44  <Timwi> peter1138, you're not being very helpful I'm afraid :/ ... the German translation is atrocious, it maybe 100% complete, but it's 50% good translation and 50% bad
20:08:57  <Timwi> This is one example
20:09:08  <Timwi> The subsidy news item is grammatically wrong
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20:09:58  <Desolator> *sigs*
20:10:03  <Desolator> *digs*
20:10:09  <Timwi> Hi
20:10:13  <Timwi> digs for what? :)
20:10:14  <Desolator> yo
20:10:20  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*Desolator@82.79.212.*] by peter1138
20:10:20  *** Desolator was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [Try again, don't fucking "bump" or "dig"]
20:10:30  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!*Desolator@82.79.212.*] by peter1138
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20:10:33  <Desolator> hey!
20:10:36  <Timwi> OK, I'm not sure what that was for
20:10:45  <peter1138> welcome :p
20:10:57  <Desolator> ~:(
20:11:05  <Desolator> >:(
20:11:08  <Timwi> peter1138: Can I e-mail my question to a developer who knows the answer?
20:11:43  <Desolator> no
20:11:48  <Desolator> email bites
20:11:56  <peter1138> clearly it's magic
20:12:52  <blathijs> Isn't this what ludde coded when he dropped by last year?
20:13:12  <Desolator> peter, I got a bug with the finace info
20:13:24  <Timwi> Gosh peter1138, you're trying really hard to piss me off eh? Sorry for trying to help with the development and improvement, you know
20:13:26  <Desolator> *finance
20:13:42  <peter1138> Timwi: well, i can stop looking in the code if you want
20:13:57  <peter1138> fiance info?
20:13:58  <Timwi> I didn't know you're looking at the code at the moment, sorry.
20:14:10  <Timwi> But I would welcome it if you could stop giving snide remarks :-).
20:14:21  <Desolator> erm, the palce where you see hoqw much money you're earning, spending, etc...i forgot how it's called
20:14:24  <Desolator> *place
20:15:14  <Desolator> finances window
20:16:20  <peter1138> hmm
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20:16:26  * peter1138 wonders what is actually shown
20:16:31  <Desolator> nothing
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20:16:39  <peter1138> regarding subsidies :p
20:16:51  <peter1138> Desolator: that usually means the date has been changed somewhere
20:17:03  <Desolator> O.o? in the scenario editor
20:17:26  <Ailure> if you are before the company founding date
20:17:29  <Ailure> the finacnes windwo is messed up
20:17:39  <Ailure> check the founding date of the company
20:17:41  *** e1ko [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:17:41  <Ailure> and current date
20:17:50  <Ailure> I had a similar thing happening to me when the game started in 1920
20:18:03  <Desolator> well AFAIK it didn't affect if you edited a scenario to put it in 1920
20:18:06  <Ailure> but due to messing around in the scenario editor before, it thought the first company started 1950
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20:18:13  <peter1138> Services already subsidised:
20:18:22  <peter1138> Passenger from Mintingford to Nonningville
20:18:35  <peter1138> hmm, but that's not the news message
20:18:39  <Desolator> ZOMG it's 1955 O.o
20:18:47  <Ailure> heh
20:18:49  <Ailure> I guessed so
20:18:54  <Desolator> I guess it's a bug in the scenario editor
20:19:00  <Ailure> yeah
20:19:16  <Desolator> should change the funding date if you change the date
20:19:20  <Ailure> I was going to report it for a long time ago, but then forgot about it as I got busy with studies again
20:19:26  <Ailure> and it's something I only stumbled over once too
20:19:30  <Ailure> even if reprodcuable easily
20:20:06  <Desolator> make an empty scenario, save it, load it, change date back, paly it, kaboom
20:20:15  <Desolator> *play
20:20:19  <peter1138> Timwi: yup, there is some serious magic going on here
20:20:26  <peter1138> the subsidies messages are also screwed up
20:20:30  <Desolator> alright, I'm out
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20:21:58  <peter1138> ah ha
20:23:18  <peter1138> awww cra
20:23:20  <peter1138> p
20:23:36  <peter1138> stupid big compiles :(
20:24:11  <ProfFrink> peter1138: Take the dyslexic robocop approach.
20:24:25  <ProfFrink> "Drop your weapon. You have ten seconds to compile."
20:24:36  <peter1138> if only it was 10 seconds
20:25:06  *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
20:25:35  <Prof_Frink> Hmm, keepnick fail.
20:25:56  <Prof_Frink> anyway, after ten seconds, success or not, you shoot your computer
20:26:34  <peter1138> hah
20:26:36  <peter1138> good ol' abit
20:26:46  <peter1138> i think the capacitors will explode before too long
20:26:49  <Timwi> Found something?
20:27:03  <peter1138> well
20:27:09  <peter1138> waiting for this compile
20:27:14  <Timwi> I just tested my theory empirically and I discovered that I was wrong -- the "WITHDRAWN" message is also wrong :)
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20:27:33  <Timwi> Which is doubly weird because that one has "service" in the English string. I guess I'll try the test in English
20:27:51  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
20:27:51  <Bjarni> !logs
20:27:54  <peter1138> my suspicion is that plural/singular are mixed
20:28:10  <Timwi> Indeed it says "passengers service" :-))
20:28:32  <peter1138> i'm assuming you're using a nightly/svn here
20:29:52  <Bjarni> we have an issue with singular/plural and translations.... like is aircraft singular or plural?
20:29:57  <peter1138> no
20:30:38  <Bjarni> well, are you sure all the translators are sure of this while translating some string where aircraft appears in?
20:31:06  <Bjarni> I don't think it's a huge issue. Luckily the translators tend to investigate whenever they end up in situations like this
20:32:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10606 /trunk/src/ (cargotype.h newgrf.cpp): -Fix (r8826): plural and single cargo names were mixed up.
20:33:13  <peter1138> Bjarni: i would imagine a translator would know what plural form to use in their own language...
20:36:00  <Timwi> peter1138: I am afraid I am looking at RC2 myself...
20:37:03  <peter1138> ah well
20:39:21  <Timwi> peter1138: Do you know what type "StringID" is? Is it an integer?
20:39:49  <peter1138> yes
20:39:57  <peter1138> unsigned 16 bit integer, to get picky
20:40:16  <Timwi> OK.
20:40:21  <Timwi> I'm looking at DrawNewsString() now
20:40:27  <Timwi> Clearly ni->string_id is an integer then
20:40:41  <Timwi> So after str = ni->string_id;, str is just the string ID, it doesn't have any parameters in it
20:40:45  <Timwi> Then it calls:       GetString(buffer, str, lastof(buffer));
20:41:06  <Timwi> I'm completely mystified where the substitution happens :)
20:41:14  <peter1138> CopyInDParam
20:42:14  <Timwi> o.O
20:42:23  <Timwi> How is the result of that passed to GetString()?
20:42:47  <peter1138> *cough* globals *cough*
20:43:29  <Bjarni> <peter1138> Bjarni: i would imagine a translator would know what plural form to use in their own language... <-- that's not what I meant. It was more like reading if it is one or more in the English string when deciding if singular or plural should be used in the translated string
20:44:05  *** DeGhosty [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:44:38  <Timwi> The problem is not that I don't know what to use, the problem is that the GAME doesn't know what to use :))) It is using the wrong one and I can't fix that
20:44:54  <peter1138> possibly it's the wrong way around in 0.5.2 as well
20:44:59  <peter1138> er
20:45:01  <peter1138> 0.5.3-RC2
20:45:20  <peter1138> if it is then i can use that as my excuse for it being wrong in trunk ;)
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20:46:19  <Bjarni> Timwi: right. Good point
20:46:32  * Bjarni stops trying to multitask
20:46:51  <Bjarni> I should really read everything said in here before saying anything :s
20:47:24  <peter1138> god
20:47:31  <peter1138> DEPs were so slow :p
20:47:32  <sartsj> jesus
20:50:14  <Timwi> OK, peter1138, after investigating a lot of the source code I now believe that the fix requires changing
20:50:14  <Timwi> pair = SetupSubsidyDecodeParam(s, 1);
20:50:15  <Timwi> to
20:50:16  <Timwi> pair = SetupSubsidyDecodeParam(s, 0);
20:50:19  <sartsj> is there a way to clean a company from a server?
20:50:23  <sartsj> manually
20:50:25  <Timwi> in both line 1025 and line 1032 in economy.c
20:50:50  <Timwi> And then the English string STR_202E_OFFER_OF_SUBSIDY_EXPIRED needs to be changed to include the word "service" after "{STRING}"
20:54:27  <MUcht> we need to increase the max_players :-(
20:54:41  <Phazorx> yes we do
20:54:41  <MUcht> once again, like almost every evening the past month :-/
20:55:04  <peter1138> why? you only use 1 player
20:55:34  <Phazorx> well we have mroe than 10 ppl each using one player...
20:55:44  <Phazorx> at least wanting to do so...
20:56:19  <glx> then it's not max_player but max_client :)
20:56:25  <MUcht> 2 people more want to join in :-/
20:56:31  <MUcht> ah glx thx for the tip
20:56:35  <Phazorx> ughm... sorry max clients then
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21:27:10  <Timwi> Hi again
21:27:23  <Timwi> peter1138, did you get my last suggestions regarding the suggested source code change?
21:28:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Timwi: have you at all looked at the last commit?
21:29:33  <Timwi> Eddi|zuHause: I was out of this channel for a while as you may have noticed
21:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it was an hour ago :p
21:30:03  <Rubidium> Timwi: might be, but you were in the channel when it happened
21:30:15  <Timwi> OK then I'll check my channel logs
21:31:01  <Timwi> Crap, timestamps missing :/
21:31:12  <Rubidium> search for CIA
21:31:32  <Timwi> <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10592 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
21:31:34  <Timwi> Is it part of that?
21:31:34  <hylje> svn log
21:31:41  <Eddi|zuHause> !openttd commit
21:31:43  <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r10606 /trunk/src/ (cargotype.h newgrf.cpp) (2007-07-17 20:32:27 UTC)
21:31:45  <_42_> -Fix (r8826): plural and single cargo names were mixed up.
21:32:04  <Timwi> How can I get a diff of that change?
21:32:11  <Timwi> Without having svn installed :-p
21:32:30  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe?
21:34:16  <Timwi> OK, I've seen it now. He has changed something very different from what I was referring to
21:34:29  <Timwi> Therefore I assume the answer is 'no', he either hasn't seen my suggestion or decided not to commit it
21:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it was long before your "suggestion"
21:35:19  <Timwi> Yes, and it doesn't address my problem
21:35:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and it just shows the issue was deeper than that
21:35:22  <Timwi> Hence my suggestion still stands
21:35:29  <Timwi> Are you sure?
21:35:30  <Rubidium> Timwi: how do you know it doesn't address your problem?
21:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried it?
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21:36:49  <Rubidium> as these little changes swap the singular and plural names (if you don't load them as newgrf, which you most likely aren't)
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21:38:38  <Timwi> I'll try the nightly tomorrow and see
21:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just 3 lines, you can change them in your working copy easily
21:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> while only the line in cargotype.h will most likely suffice
21:40:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the other part might be newcargo related, and thus not be included in 0.5
21:40:56  <Timwi> I can change them in the source, but I can't recompile :
21:40:57  <Timwi> :)
21:41:05  <Timwi> At least not without downloading and installing Visual Studio first
21:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you can use buildottd
21:41:46  <peter1138> 0.5 doesn't have cargotype.h
21:42:06  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, but it has the struct, or not?
21:42:10  <peter1138> nope
21:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause> funny :)
21:42:36  <Timwi> Should I use 1.0-RC1 or 0.4.0 of BuildOTTD?
21:43:01  <Digitalfox_Desktop> RC1
21:43:03  <Timwi> k
21:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea
21:43:16  <Digitalfox_Desktop> It's the last version
21:43:33  <Rubidium> last != best
21:44:53  <Ailure> ...suggestion
21:45:02  <Ailure> do recession really need to be under economy changes?
21:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it is, if all transformation functions are monotonous
21:46:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Ailure: under what else?
21:47:04  <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there supposed to be a differentiation between "unimportant" and "important" economical changes?
21:49:00  <Ailure> well I generally seen it more of a disaster than anything <<
21:49:15  <Ailure> and economy changes is the most annoying news category on huge maps
21:50:35  <Timwi> Hm, I don't understand how BuildOTTD works :(
21:50:57  <Timwi> I click "Update and Compile", then it says "revision 10606 checked out", and then it doesn't do anything else
21:51:23  <Timwi> Ah, LOL, now it does something :)
21:51:30  <Timwi> OK, it needs a bit more indication that it is doing something
21:52:02  <Eddi|zuHause> there's probably a thread in the forum where you can post suggestions
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21:54:26  <Timwi> OK, I've tried it, the bug is still there
21:54:31  <Timwi> As I said, the revision wasn't addressing my problem
21:54:54  *** Tlustoch [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:57:19  <Timwi> OK, now how do I compile my modifications *without* updating to r10606?
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22:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone ever figured out what this means? /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/src/misc/blob.hpp:376: warning: assuming signed overflow does not occur when assuming that (X - c) >= X is always true
22:01:07  <peter1138> i means your compiler is buggy
22:01:49  *** sartsj [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:01:54  <peter1138> *it
22:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> has this actually been fixed somewhere?
22:02:34  <Timwi> Eddi|zuHause, how can I compile OpenTTD using BuildOTTD without updating from SVN, i.e. without reverting my changes to the source files?
22:02:48  *** lolman [] has joined #openttd
22:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea how buildottd works, but it probably installes mingw/gcc, so if you put the directory with the binaries in path, you can type "make" on the command line
22:04:01  <Timwi> I thought of that, but "make" is not included it seems
22:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> gmake?
22:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> gnumake?
22:04:28  <Timwi> OK, it *is* included, I didn't search for it properly :p
22:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
22:04:46  <glx> make is part of msys
22:05:25  <Timwi> C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk>make
22:05:26  <Timwi> MAKE Version 5.2  Copyright (c) 1987, 1998 Inprise Corp.
22:05:26  <Timwi> Error makefile 5: Command syntax error
22:05:29  <Timwi> Same for loads of other lines ...
22:05:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Timwi: ./configure first
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22:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Timwi: btw, the bug is fixed for me...
22:06:55  <Timwi> C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk>sh ./configure
22:06:55  <Timwi> Error: Invalid option -E
22:06:55  <Timwi> configure: error: invalid option --endian=AUTO
22:06:55  <Timwi>  Available options are: --endian=[AUTO|LE|BE]
22:07:09  <Timwi> Eddi|zuHause: How did you check that?
22:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> let a game run until a subsidy shows up?
22:07:59  <Timwi> Well, the problem occurs when a subsidy _expires_
22:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Timwi: tried "bash ./configure"?
22:08:46  <Timwi> Yes, no bash.exe
22:08:54  <Timwi> C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk>dir C:\BuildOTTD\msys\bin\*sh*
22:08:56  <Timwi> lists only sh.exe
22:09:11  <Timwi> And so does       dir C:\BuildOTTD\*sh*.exe /s
22:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> probably wrong grep
22:09:25  <glx> sh.exe is bash
22:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> place the directory in the beginning of PATH
22:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't get accidently overriden by windows programs
22:10:20  <Timwi> OK
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22:11:24  <Timwi> OK, thanks, that worked
22:11:39  <Timwi> It's complaining that it can't find 'svn' or 'subversion', but it continues nonetheless so I hope it's OK
22:11:49  <glx> yes it's ok
22:11:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's just for the revision number
22:12:02  <glx> you'll get a norev0000 version
22:12:31  <Timwi> OK, thanks
22:12:34  <Eddi|zuHause> buildottd should include svn also, so you can put that in path, too
22:12:38  <Timwi> Yay, you're being really helpful now :)))))
22:12:47  *** NW|Aerandir [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:13:55  <Eddi|zuHause> damn, this savegame is old...
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22:14:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i created it with the elrails branch
22:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> with tgp patch
22:14:33  <Timwi> OK, 'make' has finished... where is the EXE now? :)
22:14:48  <Eddi|zuHause> in bin/
22:14:48  <Eddi|zuHause> if trunk
22:14:51  <Phazorx> bin/openttd.exe
22:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> in . if 0.5
22:15:10  <Timwi> Would it be the one in C:\BuildOTTD\builds\trunk_r10606_17.07.2007_22-58-00 ?
22:15:37  <Phazorx> unlikely
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22:15:50  <Phazorx> bottd moves bin there, but make doies not
22:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause> no, in the directory where you ran "make"
22:15:56  <Timwi> OK, is it the one in C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk\bin ? or C:\BuildOTTD\msys\home\ottdsrc\trunk\objs\release ?
22:16:01  <Timwi> Ah, OK
22:16:05  <Timwi> That would be trunk\bin then
22:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:16:28  <Timwi> In fact those last two have the same date/time stamp, so they might be the same
22:16:47  <Phazorx> that would be strange
22:17:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it gets compiled in objs/release/ (or objs/debug)
22:17:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and then copied to bin/
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22:17:38  <Phazorx> ahh... nm i was still thinking about bottd folder
22:17:39  <Eddi|zuHause> so it is easy to switch between release and debug builds with the same config and newgrfs
22:18:11  <Timwi> OK, thanks very much for your help, that was really great
22:18:18  <Timwi> My change fixes the issue I am reporting
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22:19:49  <Timwi> Where do I post the patch? :)
22:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> then why is it fixed for me without those changes?
22:20:04  <Desolator> hi
22:20:05  <Timwi> Eddi|zuHause: Because you were looking at the wrong news item
22:20:13  <Timwi> [23:08] <Eddi|zuHause> let a game run until a subsidy shows up?
22:20:13  <Timwi> [23:09] <Timwi> Well, the problem occurs when a subsidy _expires_
22:20:43  <Desolator> is there any way to get the MD5 of the lastest nightly? (so I can compare it with the MD5 of the downloaded file to check for errors)
22:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the show up was also wrong previously
22:21:36  <Timwi> Eddi: Either way, my change fixes the message for expiring and withdrawn subsidies
22:21:46  <Timwi> (and only those)
22:21:47  *** NW|Aerandir [] has joined #openttd
22:21:54  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ottd just segfaulted on me after reporting a wrong savegame
22:22:06  <Timwi> Where do I post the patch?
22:22:46  <Desolator> [01:20] <Desolator> is there any way to get the MD5 of the lastest nightly? (so I can compare it with the MD5 of the downloaded file to check for errors)
22:22:49  <Eddi|zuHause>
22:22:59  <Timwi> OK
22:24:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Desolator: shouldn't a defect download not decompress?
22:27:27  <Desolator> well if that happens, the user will be presented an unwanted error message (generated by the ZIP lib I use), thus I can't do something if it's corrupted
22:28:15  <Eddi|zuHause> can't you catch that error?
22:28:25  <Desolator> nope...
22:28:53  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of bad programming language do you use?
22:28:58  <Timwi> Yay
22:28:59  <Desolator> LUA
22:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> even batch can catch errors
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22:29:31  <Eddi|zuHause> just use a unzip that can run in a non-interactive mode, then check the errorlevel
22:29:32  <Desolator> well, a custom-build of LUA (search for AutoPlay Media Studio)
22:29:36  *** Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
22:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> can't be that difficult
22:30:00  <Desolator> well unfortunately I can't change it
22:30:15  <Desolator> I gotta use what I got...a Zip.Extract action =(
22:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> should be a command line parameter
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22:30:58  <Timwi> Off to bed now
22:31:03  <Timwi> Good night
22:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> -T   test zipfile integrity
22:31:40  *** Timwi [] has quit []
22:31:52  <Desolator> hmmm...*checks*
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22:32:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd guess Zip.Test or something
22:33:19  <Desolator> nope
22:33:21  *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
22:33:36  <Desolator> but I got a file in the gallery with some more functions...*checks*
22:33:57  <Desolator> =( no
22:36:59  <Desolator> well g2g cya
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22:44:58  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:12:19  <orudge> SpComb around?
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