Log for #openttd on 30th July 2007:
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08:50:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10734 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#1030]: Revert r10513) and add special cases for collision detection on bridges/tunnels.
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08:53:03  <Ammler> oh peter1138, signal bug now fixed?
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08:53:35  <Ammler> btw, good morning all
08:53:50  <peter1138> probably
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08:54:35  <Ammler> we will update...
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10:24:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10735 /branches/0.5/ (oldloader.c openttd.c): [0.5] -Fix [FS#1062]: trains being split into two pieces when loading an old savegame.
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11:14:44  <TheJosh> hey all
11:15:50  <TheJosh> hows everyone going?
11:18:01  <TheJosh> would anyone be able to help me with a tiny problem?
11:18:09  <TheJosh> (sorry about the @@s)
11:18:59  <TheJosh> i would like each item in the array to be unique... but im not quite sure how, as you dont use new on a struct
11:21:49  <Zr40> TheJosh: place the @@ at the beginning of each line, not after the indentation
11:23:24  <TheJosh> i noticed that afterwards...sorry
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11:28:16  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
11:28:16  <TheMask96> !logs
11:30:12  <TheJosh> Zr40: do you know how I can do this? i know it must be a very simple thing to do
11:30:27  <TheJosh> i just havent been working with c++ for very long
11:30:47  <Zr40> looks like C to me
11:31:22  <TheJosh> OpenTTD is coded in C++, but a lot of the code is still c-style
11:31:42  <Zr40> so... you got an array of a struct?
11:32:18  <TheJosh> i got it
11:32:21  <TheJosh> i think
11:32:42  <Zr40> define 'unique'
11:33:36  <Noldo> TheJosh: there's nothing stoping you from using new with struct
11:34:30  <TheJosh> ok
11:34:57  <TheJosh> so in c++, the border between a struct and a class is fuzzy?
11:35:20  <Rubidium> no, the border between struct and class is very clear
11:35:45  <TheJosh> but you can use new on both a struct and a class?
11:35:50  <Maedhros> you can use new with anything that you can use malloc with
11:35:55  <Noldo> the only difference is that the with struct te default is public and with class its pirvate
11:35:58  <Noldo> *private
11:36:13  <Rubidium> Noldo: exactly, which is a very clear border IMO
11:36:21  <Noldo> ugh
11:37:27  <TheJosh> ah ok i get it now
11:38:35  <Rubidium> though I wonder what you are trying to accomplish
11:39:17  <TheJosh> cant tell (till the patch is done)
11:39:27  <TheJosh> actually I will because its almost done
11:39:46  <Rubidium> anyway, it leaks memory like hell
11:39:46  <Noldo> :D
11:39:53  <peter1138> moo?
11:40:01  <TheJosh> what
11:40:06  <Rubidium> or rather, it doesn't at this moment, but the behaviour is totally broken
11:40:07  <TheJosh> nah im not going the new path
11:40:22  <TheJosh> ok my patch will be called "Named Shared Orders"
11:40:44  <TheJosh> with a list like the sign list
11:40:47  <Rubidium> and looking at the code I've got the idea it will leak like hell
11:41:03  <Rubidium> and it allocates way way too much memory
11:41:03  <TheJosh> im only mimicing whats already there
11:41:49  <TheJosh> i know. i was trying to think of a better way of calculating, without a full check
11:42:30  <TheJosh> i could go the last known figure, say plus somehting, but that could break bigtime
11:43:07  <Rubidium> not if you allocate more memory when you do not have enough of it
11:43:55  <TheJosh> like how Loading Indicators had a dynamic array
11:45:30  <TheJosh> whats your thoughts on the idea overall (named shared orders)
11:45:47  <Rubidium> I don't get the benefit over groups
11:46:24  <TheJosh> can you set orders to a group?
11:47:18  <Rubidium> if all vehicles in the group have the same shared order you can (just select one of the trains)
11:47:19  * peter1138 ponders lunchification
11:47:50  <TheJosh> i was thinking it could complment groups
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11:48:51  <TheJosh> so you can have the group 'goods trains' but have the nso 'main factory to slenburg'
11:49:09  <TheJosh> rather than having hundreds of groups with 5 trains in them
11:49:47  <Rubidium> then it would probably better to make meta-groups
11:49:53  <TheJosh> i was also going to have itso you can click the 'go to' button, and then click on a group in the list and the train would join that group
11:49:55  <Rubidium> -+ goods trains
11:50:05  <TheJosh> just like if you ctrl-clicked a train
11:50:05  <Rubidium>  +- main factory to X
11:50:11  <Rubidium>  +- main factory to Y
11:50:17  <TheJosh> subgroups
11:50:53  <Rubidium> yes, something like that
11:50:55  <TheJosh> i only went down the shared orders path because people use shared orders anyway
11:51:17  <TheJosh> if you could just dump a name on a shared order, it saves you creating a group and assigning a group
11:51:44  <TheJosh> and plainly, at this time its still quicker and easier to set up a shared order. ctrl-click a train. faster than making groups
11:52:22  <TheJosh> groups encourage organisation. shared orders encourage geting the job done. thus groups are better for big numbers of trains and shared orders for small numbers of trains
11:52:39  <Rubidium> a lot of people do not use shared orders
11:53:00  <Noldo> and a lot of peopöe do?
11:53:21  <Rubidium> and setting up groups is not that much extra work
11:53:31  <TheJosh> i was also sort of hoping with this patch to encourage shared orders. i think people just dont know about them. i didnt know about them until i descovered them. now I use nothing else
11:53:52  <Noldo> I need new fingers :(
11:54:05  <Ammler> hmm, does trains with shared orders automatically belong to same group?
11:54:07  <TheJosh> huh? why?
11:54:13  <TheJosh> nope
11:54:29  <Ammler> but that would be cool, wouldn't?
11:54:31  <TheJosh> there is a button thats been added recently to add traisn that are shared
11:54:47  <Rubidium> Ammler: yes and no; if you add one train with shared order it is not, but it's one click away. If you clone a vehicle that is in a group, the cloned vehicle is in that group too
11:54:50  <TheJosh> but you would have do click that one each time you added a train to the shared order
11:54:59  <Rubidium> TheJosh: that button was there since the begin
11:55:10  <TheJosh> opps, didnt notice :P
11:55:11  <Ammler> Rubidium: thats good, imo
11:55:31  <TheJosh> Ammler: would you use named shared orders?
11:55:51  <Rubidium> TheJosh: and when people want to autoreplace on the shared orders?
11:56:00  <Rubidium> then you tell them to make a group and autoreplace that?
11:56:13  <Ammler> in past we named all ICE to know how much trains go from a to b
11:56:25  <Ammler> now, we can make groups
11:56:43  <Ammler> thats a lot easier
11:56:57  <TheJosh> i only started making this patch because of this game i have been playing during lunchtime at work
11:57:06  <Ammler> and if you clone a train where is already in a group, i think its fine
11:57:35  <TheJosh> and at one point, i accideently ctrl-clicked on the wrong train, and then stuffed up the order. then i did it again to another train.
11:57:40  <Ammler> TheJosh: to anwer your question, I think rather no
11:58:07  <TheJosh> and i thouht it would be cool to be able to name the group and click on it in a list instead. then i get just the right nso
11:58:24  <Ammler> but how difficult is it to give with shared order also the same group?
11:58:39  <TheJosh> ah yes, but that requires a clone, which means stopping a train
11:58:59  <Rubidium> trains need to be stopped to be cloned?
11:59:06  <Ammler> :)
11:59:10  <TheJosh> in a depo if i last remember
11:59:15  <Ammler> no
11:59:21  <TheJosh> really?
11:59:29  <Ammler> yep
11:59:30  <Rubidium> that sucks, must be doing something wrong when I cloned those running trains
11:59:33  <TheJosh> the clone train button is a 'goto depo' button
11:59:56  <Rubidium> click on depot, in the middle at the bottom
12:00:02  <Ammler> you have a clone train button in the depot window
12:00:44  <TheJosh> learn somehting new every day
12:01:19  <Ammler> Rubidium: is it needed to have different groups for trains where sharing the orders?
12:01:29  <Rubidium> no
12:02:27  <Ammler> so my idea would be: share also group when sharing orders
12:02:29  <Rubidium> groups are (currently) per vehicle, not per order
12:03:03  <Rubidium> Ammler: you can do that, but it is not necessary
12:03:26  <Ammler> but less complicated for managing
12:03:34  <Rubidium> you could for example have some tourist steam trains going between towns and maglev passenger trains with the same orders
12:03:46  <Rubidium> do you want them ALWAYS to be in the same group?
12:04:00  <Rubidium> if shared orders == same group that would be the case
12:04:05  <Ammler> I wouldnt also share the orders
12:04:06  <Rubidium> but now the choice is yours
12:04:59  <Ammler> Rubidium: yeah, its fine :)
12:06:14  <Ammler> Anyway, the group thing did make our (#openttdcoop) ICE naming thing much easier
12:06:47  <Ammler> that was a pain in past so most didn't do it right
12:07:38  <Ammler> well, most don't it right now, still. ;)
12:07:55  <Ammler> hmm, was that english?
12:07:58  <Rubidium> ban them ;)
12:08:15  <Rubidium> at least I'm sure I've never done it wrong ;)
12:08:31  <Ammler> you mean, we should ban XeryusTC?
12:08:48  <XeryusTC> huh?
12:08:55  <Ammler> :D
12:09:12  <Ammler> that was fast
12:09:27  <XeryusTC> ofcourse :P
12:09:40  <Ammler> XeryusTC: do you know our new ICE naming system?
12:09:41  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: seems you failed your OTTDcoop ICE train management exam
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12:10:11  <XeryusTC> there are 4 different systems :P
12:10:27  <XeryusTC> and i seem to be the only one that cares about proper names :P
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13:07:33  <alex_> is there a RSS feed of the online servers?
13:09:50  <Progman> what kind of rss should this be?
13:10:10  <Rubidium> the useless kind I guess
13:10:32  <alex_> or a XML dump i could for the
13:10:39  <alex_>
13:10:46  <peter1138> RSS is for 'news' aggregation
13:10:54  <peter1138> servers come and go
13:11:07  <alex_> my bad
13:11:21  <Progman> you can query the metaserver ;)
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13:12:11  <alex_> right
13:12:14  <alex_> also
13:12:19  <alex_> max_trains variable
13:12:25  <alex_> is that per user or a max server setting?
13:12:46  <peter1138> it's per user, but it's a server setting
13:13:13  <alex_> sorry i ment, its that a global server setting rather than per user
13:13:14  <alex_> thanks,
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13:36:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10736 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: Correct all mispellings of 'successful'.
13:36:42  <hylje> :o
13:36:44  <hylje> pedantry commit
13:37:01  <peter1138> yes
13:37:19  <Rubidium> successfulll :O
13:37:23  <peter1138> yes
13:37:36  <alex_> 2062201] Client #71 is slow, try increasing *net_frame_freq to a higher value!
13:37:39  <alex_> what does this mean?
13:37:51  <alex_> what does net_frame_freq do?
13:38:02  <peter1138> i means client #71 is slow, and you should try increasing net_frame_freq to a higher value
13:38:06  <peter1138> *it
13:38:26  <alex_> please.
13:38:54  <alex_> "slow" refers to what?
13:38:55  <alex_> latency?
13:38:59  <alex_> bandwidth?
13:39:01  <alex_> slow processor?
13:41:33  <Rubidium> I presume slow processor or it must have a latency of more than 2 seconds
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13:42:17  <alex_> and how does increasing net_frame_freq allow laggy clients to connect?
13:42:43  <alex_> Client #71 is dropped because the client did not respond for more than 4 game-days
13:43:28  <Smoovious> generally, if net_frame_freq is too low, and 2 clients are running  at  significantly different speeds, say, a 733Mhz  vs a 3Ghz computer..., you could end up w ith t he situation where the 733Mhz c omputer issues a command for an action it  did, but the  3Ghz computer has already passed that frame and  can't execute the command
13:43:29  <Rubidium> increasing net_frame_freq lowers the load at the client slightly, which may cause the client to still keep up with you
13:43:51  <Smoovious> so setting frame_freq, will  add  a delay or lag, for the  command  to be executed, so they stay in s ync
13:44:09  <Rubidium> Smoovious: that is bullshit
13:44:18  * Smoovious shrugs.
13:44:25  <Smoovious> tis the way it  appears to me
13:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> "mis_s_pellings"?
13:46:14  <Rubidium> Smoovious: it just means that the server sends the accumulated commands (from all clients) every net_frame_freq frames
13:46:36  <Rubidium> and the clients can NEVER be a frame further than the server
13:46:43  <Rubidium> they can only be behind
13:47:06  <Rubidium> but if it shows that slow message it usually means the computer is too slow to play the game
13:47:14  <Smoovious> note I didn't specifiy which was server o r client... a nd otherwisse, the rest o f that supports m y 'delay or lag' part
13:47:19  <Rubidium> as alex_ already said the client was dropped because it was too slow
13:47:50  <Rubidium> Smoovious: the "can't execute the command" is totally crap
13:48:13  <Rubidium> commands are always send to the server and then distributed to the clients and THEN, when the server says so, executed
13:48:47  <Smoovious> well, if  I find the  explanation of that again, that  I read  which  described i  t that way, I'll mention it
13:50:33  <alex_> net_frame_freq increases the sync updates timer
13:50:39  <alex_> so its its like 2 atm
13:50:43  <alex_> and i set it too like 10
13:50:57  <alex_> means less load on clients, but a big burst of data from the server end?
13:51:08  <alex_> every sync cycle?
13:51:56  <Rubidium> basically
13:52:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> at values like 10 the game gets pretty unplayable, because commands get very delayed
13:52:40  <Smoovious> not that unplayable... it isn't a first-person-shooter after all
13:54:37  <Gekko[PDA]> lol
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15:56:22  <AntB> hey, can you use more then one patch with BuildOTTD?
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15:57:03  <hylje> you may need to correct conflicts
15:57:56  <AntB> ok, i was just wondering as theres only 1 box for patches
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15:58:36  <hylje> its one off because, well, correcting conflicts is hard and error-prone
15:58:42  <hylje> or the dev was lazy
15:58:56  <AntB> lol
15:59:46  <Smoovious> plus resolving conflicts  one patch at a time can already be a pain in the  ass... wouldn't wanna  do several  at once
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16:02:53  <AntB> ok
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16:29:16  <Wolf01> hello
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16:37:29  <alex_> hi
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16:43:34  <ZSOLT21> sombody know how or where can i download ottd 32 bites ?
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16:45:57  <Nek21_bv> sombody know how or where can i download ottd 32 bites ?
16:46:14  <Noldo> what?
16:46:15  <peter1138> Try
16:46:24  <peter1138> assuming you are talking about 32bpp graphics
16:46:30  <peter1138> rather than 32 bits
16:46:36  <Nek21_bv>  32bpp graphics
16:46:46  <Nek21_bv> :)
16:46:53  <peter1138> i have no idea where you can download actual 32bpp graphics though
16:47:14  <peter1138> but the nightly does support the mythical beasts
16:47:28  <Nek21_bv> ok thank you.
16:51:02  <peter1138> heh, a dual-core cpu is nice for running a client & server on the same machine...
16:51:20  <hylje> :o
16:51:29  <hylje> isnt that somewat.. obvious?
16:51:33  <peter1138> yes
16:51:42  <peter1138> but this is national state-the-obvious day
16:51:46  <peter1138> didn't you know?
16:51:55  <hylje> no, i didn't
16:52:05  <hylje> and you're being rather meta there
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16:54:42  * peter1138 idly ponders that quad-core cpu
16:54:51  <hylje> four openttds at a time!
16:55:02  <skidd13> peter1138: Is FS1095 better now?
17:03:18  <peter1138> not really
17:03:26  <peter1138> multiplying by an enum value?
17:03:54  <skidd13> Why not?
17:04:48  <skidd13> Or is a ((IS #1 of enum) ? 1 : 2) * better?
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17:19:12  <Sacro> oh nyet
17:19:40  <lolman> :o
17:26:21  <Nickman> TrueBrain: you here? :)
17:32:10  <Nickman> I'll be out for a while but I think there is something wrong with the drive trough bus stations in the NoAI branch, I can't get them to build...
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17:33:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10737 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt german.txt polish.txt):
17:33:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-30 19:33:14
17:33:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 51 changed by arnaullv (51)
17:33:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 3 changed by chu (3)
17:33:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 5 fixed by meush (5)
17:39:53  <Noldo> skidd13: even if you were right you would be wrong
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18:09:44  <skidd13> Noldo: He's the lead dev so his word counts.
18:09:44  <skidd13> peter1138: Better now?
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18:16:28  <Noldo> skidd13: my point exactly
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18:27:18  <skidd13> Noldo: I'm the opinion that perseverance pays off always.
18:42:34  <Priski> hmm, changelog in is bit misleading where it says "2 lines" etc. I'm guessing that it shows svn commit message lines (+1 ?), not number of lines in code that changed, as some people might first think...
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20:09:52  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:12:55  <ln-> night comes early in italy.
20:17:59  <peter1138> 10pm?
20:18:12  <peter1138> well not everyone stays up all night
20:19:07  <Priski> nope
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20:54:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> depends how you define "night" :p
20:54:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's definitely dark outside
20:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> but in finland, the sun is probably still up :p
20:56:01  <Wezz6400> well, do you define night as night, or as evening ;)
20:57:42  <Rubidium> 1 : the time from dusk to dawn when no sunlight is visible
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20:58:10  <ln-> not this south in finland.
20:58:16  <Rubidium> Wolf01 is in Italy and it gets pretty dark there
20:58:29  <Rubidium> around 10 pm CEST
21:00:26  <Wezz6400> so
21:00:34  <Wezz6400> the night is the perfect time to code!
21:01:07  <Rubidium> and the perfect time to sleep
21:01:27  * Rubidium ponders a biannual migration
21:01:36  <Wezz6400> meh
21:01:40  <Wezz6400> sleep is overrated
21:01:40  <ln-> for the record, sun sets at about 21:54 in helsinki these days.
21:02:52  <ln-> and about 40 minutes later in Oulu.
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21:07:06  <ln-> and in the very north, sun sets twice tomorrow, wtf?
21:07:57  <Rubidium> at something like 0:01 and 23:59 I guess
21:08:48  <ln-> 0:09 and 23:59
21:08:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> the joy of summer time :p
21:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> when midnight is not really midnight :p
21:09:25  <Wezz6400> midnight isn't midnight for most peope
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21:09:41  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: the number of places where midnight is actually midnight is very small
21:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> "midnight" as in "24:00" is not the same as "midnight" as in "lowest point of the sun movement"
21:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> Rubidium: yes, timezones also matter, but the summer time makes the problem worse
21:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> those were the days, when each village had its own timezone :p
21:12:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think they were abolished in the 19th century in germany
21:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> most pressure against "local timezones" came from the rail company, because it was impossible to create proper train schedules
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21:14:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think germany was divided into 6 timezones before that, each around 5 minutes apart
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21:20:59  <Priski> it would be nice if we all just used one timezone, it would make some things easier
21:21:27  <Wezz6400> very true, however that would mean that half the planet would live at night and sleep during the day
21:21:32  <Wezz6400> that's not gonna work very well I think
21:22:04  <Sacro> Wezz6400: time is an illusion
21:22:11  <Sacro> lunchtime doubly so...
21:22:45  <legoscia> it might work.  i've read about a culture (forgot which) where they start counting the hours at 6 in the evening, so they have shifted 6 hours already
21:23:00  <Sacro> i prefer using swatch time
21:23:05  <Nickman> gnight all
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21:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, we should all live after Zulu time :p
21:23:50  <Priski> Wezz6400, i really don't think so cause then just word 'night', etc... would mean different thing on different places
21:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> (= UTC, i believe)
21:23:59  <Wezz6400> Priski maybe so
21:24:15  <Sacro> i use "night" whatever time it is
21:24:15  <Wezz6400> but the earth isn't gonna stop rotating so people would be living in the dark
21:24:46  <Priski> I really don't see why this has to do anything to "people living in the dark"
21:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> but this would be the end of all experiments like summer time
21:25:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> you won't shift regularly scheduled times by an hour every half year
21:25:48  <Priski> another thing that bugs me is the gregorian calender system
21:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> why, what is wrong with it?
21:27:11  <Rubidium> and what do you suggest as an alternative?
21:29:34  <peter1138> cheese
21:30:04  <Wezz6400> hmmmm, cheeese *drool*
21:30:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> cheese is bäähh...
21:30:38  <Wezz6400> I homerdrooled, therefore cheese is good :P
21:31:30  <Priski> well mostly is inaccuracy with rotation of earth, and some other issues with weekday rotation etc
21:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> Priski: that is not an answer to either question.
21:32:43  <Priski> I cant find the suggestion which I some time ago bumped into on net
21:33:33  <Priski> I'm busy now with my night-time-noodles, I just flooded my plate all over kitchen
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21:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is the poorest excuse i heard all month
21:34:52  <Priski> :)
21:34:57  <Priski> yeah I know
21:35:12  <Rubidium> Priski: as long as the number of earth rotations per rotation of the earth around the sun cannot be expressed in a natural number and the number of earth rotations per rotation around the sun cannot be divided into a natural number that is between say 5 and 10 there is NO calendar system that magically "solves" your issues.
21:37:30  <Priski> I know, there always will be a need an leap-day, leap-week, or leap-something an all calendars
21:38:47  <ln-> not if we don't care about the correlation between time and sunshine anymore.
21:40:19  <Priski> but it would be nice if (or interesting at most) to start a year same weekday every year, and all holidays etc would occur on same weekday so things like planning holidays way ahead in work would be easier. But I don't really know if that is even worth trying
21:41:25  <Rubidium> Priski: the problem would be that they are going to "replan" all the holidays to be in the weekend
21:41:35  <ln-> changes like that are so much easier to introduce when you're e.g. the emperor of rome.
21:42:23  <Priski> Rubidium, very likely, but no-one really knows how well it would work
21:43:28  <Rubidium> having more "workdays" because the holidays are in the weekend is worse that your planning issue (IMO)
21:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> "and all holidays etc would occur on same weekday" <- that is already with a lot of holidays (easter, etc.)
21:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> the holidays that are based on a lunar calender
21:44:20  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, but they are going to do it with christmas too
21:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> Priski: do you have any idea how long it took until most governments adjusted to the gregorian calendar?
21:45:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> how long do you think it will take to change that to another random calender, when the current system runs great?
21:46:06  <Rubidium> and more working days because of christmas not being on a week day and not being paid for the free day because christmas is a week day is worse than Priski's planning issue ;)
21:46:07  <Priski> a long time
21:46:33  <Rubidium> *is not a week day
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21:46:57  <ln-> i propose switching to star dates.
21:47:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> speaking of easter, what is the english name for "Pfingsten" (50 days after easter)?
21:47:50  <Sacro> errr...
21:47:52  <Sacro> Pentacost?
21:48:02  <ln-> 4th of july? :)
21:48:05  <Priski> what is 50days after easter?
21:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> is tht an answer?
21:48:12  <Sacro> w00t
21:48:14  <Sacro> i was right!
21:48:49  <Priski> ahh that day (looked up in wiki)
21:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's more like 49 days (=7 weeks), but they count the first and the last day, so it makes 50
21:48:50  <Rubidium> Sacro: your not
21:48:54  <Sacro> Rubidium: yes i am
21:48:59  <Rubidium> it's Pentecost
21:49:01  <Sacro> go to
21:49:05  <Sacro> what did i say?
21:49:12  <Sacro> damn i was close :p
21:50:13  <Priski> that is one of the most useless holidays on my calendar, (but having holidays is good so whatta hell..)
21:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> Priski: it's an important clerical holiday here, actually even two days (sunday and monday, same as easter)
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21:53:24  <Priski> :o
21:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> there are a lot of non-clerical traditions around that weekend here, also
21:53:56  <Priski> well different cultures have different holiday traditions
21:54:03  <Rubidium> I propose to make special days (like Christmas is for Christians) from the Islamic, Jewish and all other religions also holidays ;)
21:55:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> Rubidium: actually, a lot of "christian" holidays were placed on holidays that existed in the local cultures long before christianisation
21:55:45  <Rubidium> who cares?
21:55:56  <ln-> \o_
21:55:58  <Rubidium> more free days ;)
21:56:08  <Priski> :)
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21:56:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> and actually, it is most likely that "christmas" is one of those, where it is very close to the "Wintersonnenwende" (shortest day of the year, 21. December))
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21:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> traditional "easter fires" (on the saturday before easter) are most likely also an even older "heidnic" tradition
21:59:11  <Priski> old pagan holidays are best :)
21:59:35  <Wezz6400> Eddi|zuHause3 the christmas tree comes from one of the old scandinavian cultures I believe
22:00:02  <ln-> easter fires are for expelling witches.
22:00:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> Wezz6400: yeah, where christus lived there were hardly any needle-trees to find :p
22:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: yes, witches have a very old tradition in this region
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22:00:48  <Wezz6400> fireworks is for scaring away ghosts I think
22:01:09  <alex____> could i run 0.5.2-RC2 + 0.5.2 stable and the nightly on the same debian box?
22:01:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> in the "Harz" mountains there is a famous place called "Hexentanzplatz" ("place where whiches dance")
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22:02:29  <ln-> do they?
22:03:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> even in Goethe's "Faust" they make an appearance
22:03:35  <Rubidium> and Santa Claus comes from a Dutch tradition
22:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> although that scene does not play at the "Hexentanzplatz" near Thale, but near Schierke (next to the highest mountain in the "Harz")
22:04:21  <Priski> in old pagan finnish holiday, "santa claus" was feared man who would go around houses drinkin their alcohol, but now it has evolved something bit different... :)
22:04:38  <alex____> could i run 0.5.2-RC2 + 0.5.2 stable and the nightly on the same debian box? ----- anyone know if i can?
22:05:09  <Rubidium> alex____: you can, but not by installing three different debian packages
22:05:14  <Rubidium> you have to compile two of them
22:05:27  <alex____> thats fine....
22:05:57  <alex____> ok thanks, ill check it out tomorrow
22:06:11  <alex____> is there any scripts around to automaticly download the nightly?\
22:06:12  <ln-> Priski: thanks to coca-cola®.
22:06:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> actually "Sankt Nikolaus" was a christian monk who originated in the area of turkey, and traveled from the netherlands eastwards through germany, supposedly handing out gifts
22:06:56  <Priski> ln-, :D
22:06:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> that was around the 4th century, i believe
22:07:33  <Rubidium> alex____: no, but that's because doing it manually is easier than downloading the script
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22:08:49  <Priski> guy who added santa a bear was some comedy cartoonist in 1863 (?)
22:09:11  <Priski> err, bearD
22:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> the current image of "santa claus" is supposedly majorly influenced by coca cola
22:10:33  <Wezz6400> well the thing is that that image got popular in the us, and because us culture is kinda dominant now most people on this planet know that image
22:12:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think it actually has something to do with dominance, because that image of "santa claus" was even popular in eastern block countries, which are not exactly known for american dominance :p
22:13:54  <Wezz6400> hmm ok didn't know that
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22:14:15  <Wezz6400> I do know that in the netherlands we have sinterklaas, which is based on the same guy you were talking about traveling through germany
22:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, i know
22:14:35  <Rubidium> s/based on//
22:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> but you celebrate that a day earlier :)
22:15:11  <Wezz6400> december 5th actually
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22:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> exactly, and we celebrate it on the 6th
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22:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> (supposedly his day of death, actually)
22:19:52  <Wezz6400> I see
22:20:14  <Wezz6400> I don't suppose you guys have him coming into the country officially and stuff like that
22:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> the tradition is to have kids clean their boots, and on the next morning, clean boots are filled with sweets, and dirty boots with a piece of coal
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22:25:15  <Wezz6400> hmm ok
22:25:31  <Wezz6400> we still have that
22:25:39  <Wezz6400> though without the cleaning or coal these days
22:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> i have never known any instance of coal being placed into boots either :p
22:27:06  <Rubidium> just scare tactics
22:29:10  <Wezz6400> hehe yeah just as the story about taking kids back to spain :D
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22:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> i have never heard about that...
22:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> what is that about?
22:30:33  <Wezz6400> It's another scare tactic, if you're not behaving well you'll be taken back to spain in the bag which contained the gifts on the way over here
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22:31:25  <Priski> :D
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22:35:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> enough with the christmas, it's summer :p
22:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> at least it's supposed to, the temperatures do not actually behave :p
22:35:54  <glx> :)
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