Log for #openttd on 2nd October 2007:
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00:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: i also noticed those things, but only on second and third view
00:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> my first thought was "that front looks somehow strange"
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00:07:31  <Bjarni> goodnight
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00:49:07  <fjb> Good night.
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01:12:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11192 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Little typo with bigger consequences when trying to remove a newindustries aware grf
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01:46:38  <Ben_1> So there is only 2 lamppost sprites it would seem?...if thats correct thats a bit of a problem when you zoom in...sigh
01:47:44  <Ben_1> maybe they'll have to become centered streetlamps or something. Has anybody made any streetlamp sprites before that I could take a look at?
01:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> err... what?
01:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> there must be four sprites, one for each direction
01:49:18  <Ben_1> looking through trg1r I only found 2 streetlamp sprites, while really there needs to be 4...  I'm hoping I've missed the others
01:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> is there a site listing all sprites?
01:51:41  <Ben_1> I'm not sure.  I think I saw a few train numbers written down once, but I just scan down the files with the sprites in usually.  Looking at a screenshot there does appear to only be 2 sprites though
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02:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> if i skim through the code, the lamps look like they are just a line, not a real sprite
02:41:48  <Ben_1> there is a sprite on the sheet, but there is 1 sprite number which has the 2 lamps beneath it. Yet they appear to appear indepenantly
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02:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> it just skips printing the next number because the sprite is too thin
02:52:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> so it's just lamps for right and left, not north/east/south/west
02:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, then you either change the source to adapt to 4 directions, and map them to the 2 existing sprites for 8bpp, or you stick to the 2 directions in 32bpp
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03:07:34  <Ben_1> Eddi|zuHause2: How easy would changing the source be? I wouldn't be able to do it, but would it be worth making sprites for 4 angles and asume someone will be able to sort the rest at some point?
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03:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, the most complicated point would be the mapping to the 2 old sprites part, but i have no real experience in that part
03:14:30  <Ben_1> alright, cheers.  I'l come back to them another time. Just been messing with the platform/station tonight, not done but its coming along >
03:14:36  <Ben_1> lampposts are kinda anoying though
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03:27:40  <Ben_1> night
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04:13:35  <nickname> so its the year 2024... and i'm still waiting for monorails
04:13:36  <nickname> what gives
04:30:41  <Rubidium> what climate?
04:30:49  <Rubidium> an which newgrfs are loaded?
04:30:54  <nickname> desert
04:30:57  <nickname> and the us trainset one
04:31:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> newgrf sets usually do not contain monorail
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04:31:30  <nickname> hrm, guess its time to start a new game
04:31:38  <DaleStan> The USSet contains no monorail or maglev.
04:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> because in TTDPatch you have to drop either monorail or maglev to enable elrail
04:32:15  <Rubidium> isn't it the case that desert doesn't have monorail in normal games either?
04:32:22  <nickname> they do
04:32:27  <DaleStan> Nope. Because there is no large-scale use of either monorail or Maglev in the US.
04:32:38  <nickname> if i'm not using newgrf, and i'm in desert, what kind of time span do i have between the first electric and and when the monorail comes?
04:32:51  <DaleStan> No *electric* in desert without newgrfs.
04:33:03  <nickname> oh, ok, well that solves that problem
04:33:13  <DaleStan> Monorail is usually around 2005 to 2010, I think.
04:33:54  <nickname> i love the desert the most... i love having everyhting interconnected
04:44:55  * Hendikins looks through the pile of crap that RailCorp posted to him about his new job
04:45:44  <Ailure> I think monorail actually comes a bit earlier than 2005
04:45:46  <Ailure> 2000
04:46:00  * nickname does the mr burns thing
04:46:02  <nickname> *excellent*
04:46:08  <nickname> guess i'm gonna start a new game
04:46:20  <Ailure> ah
04:46:24  <Ailure> 1999 actually
04:46:38  <Hendikins> I'm going to be playing with railways at a scale of 1:1 :)
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05:01:54  <Ailure> been ages since I last touched monorail
05:02:21  <Ailure> mostly becuse the trainsets I use tend to lack monorail trains
05:03:01  <Hendikins> I tend to go electric -> maglev
05:04:53  <Ailure> I don't replace my electrical railroads, just rather build maglev aside my railways
05:05:08  <Ailure> since maglev is unsuitable for bulk cargo :P
05:08:40  <nickname> unsuitable?
05:15:14  <Ailure> yeah
05:15:42  <Ailure> that's why most train sets who have maglev technology only carries passengers, and maybe containers too
05:16:04  <nickname> i dont get it
05:16:05  <nickname> why
05:17:38  <Ailure> Can the superspeed maglev system used to transport goods?
05:17:38  <Ailure> The superspeed maglev system is suited to transport valuable express goods that can be packed into containers. Special vehicles are available for freight traffic. The freight sections can be combined to form goods-only trains and mixed trains carrying both passengers and freight. Each freight section has a capacity of 17 t. The operating speeds of freight vehicles and passenger vehicles are the same.
05:17:38  <Ailure> The maglev system is not designed to transport heavy and bulk goods because it isn't reasonable to transport coal, ore, steel or oil at 500 km/h.
05:17:59  <Ailure> from the transrapid FAQ
05:18:05  <Ailure> it might be diffrent for other maglev's, but I doubt it
05:18:27  <nickname> oh
05:18:31  <nickname> well i dont really care about realism
05:18:56  <Ailure> well it's a gameplay issue for me too :)
05:19:06  <Ailure> I like variation
05:19:29  <Ailure> it's neat to mix diffrent types of transport :P
05:20:38  <Ailure> I find myself making new passenger lines with maglev most of the time, and leave the old railroad network for industrial bulk goods
05:20:54  <nickname> mmm
05:20:56  <nickname> you know
05:21:01  <nickname> i dont understand the point of transfer
05:21:21  <nickname> i have ti going on my game, but the train that delivers the goods to the final destinaion, just looses me lots of money ever yyear
05:21:54  <Ailure> That's due how transfer works actually
05:22:02  <Ailure> there's ways of avoiding it too
05:22:14  <nickname> how?
05:22:32  <Ailure> such as avoiding going from a fast to slow transport
05:22:41  <Ailure> such as aircraft -> ship
05:22:52  <nickname> i'm doing all trains
05:22:56  <nickname> but its a very large distance
05:23:00  <nickname> like halfway across the map
05:23:07  <nickname> and its like a 512x512 map
05:23:14  <Ailure> hmm
05:23:16  <Ailure> then I dunno
05:23:33  <Ailure> unless the other train waits for a really long time
05:24:01  <Ailure> the money that a train gains when transferring cargo is just merely virtual
05:24:09  <Ailure> the real money comes when the last vhicle unloads the cargo
05:24:35  <Ailure> and if it's less profit than the virtual money earlier, it reports a loss
05:24:38  <nickname> the last train looses alot of money when it picks up the cargo
05:24:47  <Ailure> then I dunno
05:24:51  <Ailure> I'm not sure how you set it up
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05:57:12  <boekabart> gooood morning
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07:05:43  <mcbane> good morning
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07:06:47  <nickname> crazy europeaners
07:07:52  <mcbane> depends on what you define as crazy =D
07:08:42  <nickname> lol
07:08:48  <nickname> saying good morning at midnight
07:12:13  <Alltaken> it should be good evening
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07:12:54  <mcbane> ah, ya west coast, aye?
07:13:07  <dihedral|work> morning
07:13:13  <nickname> arizona
07:13:16  <nickname> i hate the west coast
07:13:30  <Rubidium> crazy Americans.. saying midnight when it's clearly morning!
07:13:32  * mcbane grins.
07:13:34  <nickname> lol
07:17:41  <boekabart> Rubidium: in your part of the country it's clear this morning? ;)
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07:18:38  <boekabart> Is this the only time of day when both 'oceanians', us-ians and eu-ans are bored enough to chat here?
07:20:11  <Alltaken> na i'm on the east coast ;-)
07:20:21  <boekabart> of...
07:20:33  <boekabart> nz? aus? one of those right?
07:20:36  <Alltaken> of the "south island" (creative bunch
07:20:42  <Rubidium> boekabart: I can see the RTV Oost antenna from here
07:20:57  <boekabart> Rubidium: it would be really clear if I could :)
07:21:03  <Alltaken> boekabart: yeah NZ
07:21:15  <boekabart> Alltaken: ah, then IRC
07:22:26  <boekabart> Rubidium: how do I ask DorpsGek what the hex value for -8 is?
07:22:43  <boekabart> (0xF7 or F8, one of those i guess but it's too early to think)
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07:25:29  <Rubidium> boekabart: -1 = 0xFF (or 0xFFFF (or 0xFFFFFFFF (or ...)))
07:25:40  <boekabart> i know that
07:25:57  <boekabart> thanks for giving me so much credit :)
07:25:57  <Rubidium> so @calc 256 - 8 and then paste that into @base 10 16
07:26:13  <boekabart> DorpsGek: @calc 256-8
07:26:33  <boekabart> @base 10 16 248
07:26:33  <DorpsGek> boekabart: F8
07:26:42  <boekabart> merci beaucoup
07:27:19  <Rubidium> boekabart: the RTV Oost antenna is "only" 350 meters away though (well, there's a plant in between, but that's all)
07:28:26  <boekabart> well if you can't see the sun or it's direct light, it's not clear :)
07:28:40  <boekabart> assert(sun.up);
07:30:18  <Rubidium> well, the flashing red lights would be...
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07:45:51  <mcbane> hmm
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08:28:31  <mcbane> stuff i dont understand. i switch on newAI and in multiplayer AI creating companies but when i start without new AI no company is getting started.
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08:31:04  <boekabart> mcbane:  i would consider that good news :)
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08:31:43  <mcbane> wel the newai switch shouldnt cause that i think
08:32:11  <mcbane> newai means that the ai is partially implemented from AI brach or am i wrong
08:32:24  <boekabart> no
08:32:24  <Rubidium> no, that was another attempt
08:32:41  <Rubidium> it's just that "newai" doesn't cheat, whereas "oldai" does like hell
08:33:10  <Rubidium> which makes "oldai" not suitable for network play, as other people might exploit the "oldai" cheats
08:33:15  <mcbane> well with old ai (newai off) there is no company created in multiplayer.
08:33:32  <mcbane> i have buy others off  =)
08:33:54  <Rubidium> as oldai cannot be used in multiplayer, due to it's vast need to cheat
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08:34:51  <mcbane> ok, got it.
08:34:55  <boekabart> Rubidium: Any idea how it can happen that in traincontroller, GetDirectionToNextVehicle is called with the location of the 'previous' vehicle == the new location of the 'current' (following) one??
08:43:40  <Rubidium> enters/leaves the depot?
08:44:09  <boekabart> no, that's handled
08:44:15  <boekabart> hm
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11:18:19  <vicky> hello
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11:21:29  <Amixwoktest> hey
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11:46:58  <Enigma_Nova> Hi guys.
11:47:09  <Enigma_Nova> Must all be afk.
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11:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, like you can determine that within 30 seconds...
11:50:20  <mcbane> heh
11:51:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> ... in a channel where the average conversation has a reply every 2 hours
11:52:08  <mcbane> slightly delayed answers.
11:53:53  <Brianetta> determine what?
11:55:16  <Brianetta> #linux has stop-motion conversation
11:55:22  <hylje> :o
11:55:33  <Brianetta> Looks perfectly normal unsil you examine the timestamps
11:56:29  <hylje> everybody apparently filters out joins quits nicks parts and deliberately omits tiemstamps
11:56:56  <Brianetta> everybody doesn't include me
11:57:16  <hylje> yeah, you're like that
11:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> Brianetta: just yet another guy who does /join - "Hi" - "Nobody here." - /quit
11:59:23  <Brianetta> Loser.
11:59:34  <Brianetta> Doesn't deserve the enlightenment that is our conversation.
11:59:51  <hylje> ive seen people who caught up in middle of a discussion
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12:00:05  <hylje> and left because they didnt get immedetiate answer
12:00:17  <Brianetta> You should see the Linux channels
12:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, that's about what i thought, too, but i can't formulate my thoughts into words
12:00:31  <hylje> i'm lurking some ubuntu channels
12:00:37  <hylje> and a l33t h4x0r distro channel
12:00:39  <Brianetta> People barge in, demand an immediate solution to their esoteric, rare and yet extremely important problem
12:00:56  <Brianetta> l33t h4x0r?  Can only be Gentoo.
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12:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> they can't even spell h4xx0r correctly...
12:01:30  <hylje> google spells it h4x0r
12:01:33  <Brianetta> Eddi: Correctly, it's h4><0r
12:01:34  <hylje> so it must be right
12:01:59  <Ailure> hx
12:02:02  <hylje> for the record, it's not gentoo. gentoo's too popular for l33t h4x0rs
12:02:05  <Brianetta> Ailure: Only on SMS
12:02:18  <Ailure> y
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12:02:19  <Brianetta> Gentoo is for ricers.
12:02:24  <Ailure> lol, sorry couldn't resist
12:02:44  <SpComb> I was about to correct haxxors -> ricers
12:02:51  <SpComb> :(
12:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> you're right, h4><0r wins
12:03:53  <SpComb> but whenever somebody mentions having some issues with gentoo updates breaking their system, one needs to say "(I wouldn't use gentoo unless I secretly enjoyed this)"
12:05:43  <Ailure> [13:58] <Eddi|zuHause2> Brianetta: just yet another guy who does /join - "Hi" - "Nobody here." - /quit
12:05:51  <Ailure> Haha that's way too common with IRC channels
12:06:01  <Ailure> it's even more funny when someone replies mere seconds after he quitted
12:06:26  <Ailure> People are too impatient. :P
12:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> sorry for my ignorance, but what is a ricer?
12:08:25  <Brianetta> Somebody who takes an Opal Nova and puts fins, tails and stripes on it to make it look like it goes faster.
12:09:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, those people typically drive an Opel Manta here ;)
12:09:35  <Ailure> People who spend more time tweaking, than actually using the damn thing?
12:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> and are at war with people who drive a Golf instead
12:10:19  <Brianetta> Ailure: has expired, unfortunately, but it was a superb satire
12:11:22  <Brianetta>
12:11:35  <Brianetta> There you go
12:11:41  <Brianetta> The Wayback machine saves the day
12:14:47  <Ailure> haha oh god
12:14:51  <Ailure> some of the quotes
12:14:53  <Brianetta> yes
12:14:58  <Ailure> "Why *SHOULDN'T* you put a production server on gentoo? I mean, THOSE things should perform REALLY well, and gentoo is just the thing that does that..."
12:15:06  <Brianetta> My server used to be Gentoo
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12:15:17  <Brianetta> but Gentoo slowly destroyed itself
12:15:22  <Ailure> I use Ubuntu on my laptop
12:15:26  <Brianetta> so I replaced it with Trustix
12:15:38  <Ailure> Bet Gentoo users consider it a n00b distro
12:15:48  <Brianetta> Gentoo's "use" flags are touted as a huge advantage
12:16:02  <Brianetta> Like, if you have no printer, you can compile everything without support for printing
12:16:15  <Brianetta> No CUPS, no drivers, nothing
12:16:16  <Phazorx> heh what do they ahve against gentoo?
12:16:19  <Brianetta> and then
12:16:24  <Brianetta> when you buy a printer
12:16:37  <Brianetta> you have to add printing to your "use" and then...
12:16:37  <Ailure> I really don't see how huge speed improvment that would have
12:16:41  <Brianetta> rebuild the entire bloody OS!
12:16:53  <Phazorx> Brianetta: 2 things
12:17:00  <Brianetta> Phazorx: It was an example
12:17:09  <Phazorx> think ahead being first... and  plan how you gonna use your hardware
12:17:14  <Brianetta> You could switch "gnome support" for "printing"
12:17:22  <Phazorx> second, ity will recompile your damn os with 2 commands
12:17:26  <Brianetta> You might believe you're a KDE man, through and through
12:17:27  <Phazorx> and will work after reboot
12:17:32  <Phazorx> which is a beauty to see
12:17:45  <Brianetta> with 2 commands and a whole bunch of time
12:17:48  <Ailure> "I am a long time Gentoo user, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I believe that as hardware gets faster, it makes sense to migrate to a largely source-based Linux system. Binary packages encourage inconsistency and incompatibility, whearas source encourages unified development frameworks and integration."
12:17:53  <Ailure> hahha what
12:18:00  <Phazorx> who cares, point being you do have that option
12:18:16  <Brianetta> You're not going to convince me that Gentoo is good.  I used it as a primary OS on my four machines for four years.
12:18:44  <Phazorx> it runs about on 30 servers at my prious place ar wrk :)
12:18:47  <Brianetta> The very fact that the documentation didn't mention that you sould always emerge upgrades with --deep, for example, cost me an installation
12:18:57  <Brianetta> once glibc was too old to upgrade itself
12:19:03  <Brianetta> and the compiler failed
12:19:08  <Phazorx> that is sad, indeed
12:19:09  <valhallasw> if you should do that, why isn't it the default? :|
12:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> Phazorx: let me guess, it also runs your keyboard :p
12:19:18  <Brianetta> valhallasw: NFI.
12:19:32  <Brianetta> That was why my server needed a reinstall
12:19:41  <Brianetta> It was 350 miles away, and couldn't be updated.
12:19:53  <Brianetta> Once I switched ISPs, I took the opportunity to reinstall the OS.
12:20:01  <valhallasw> -_-
12:20:11  <Ailure> heh
12:20:18  <Ailure> "I essentially started using Gentoo because my KDE clock would never show the right time in Red Hat."
12:20:24  <Ailure> I wonder how he even got Gentoo working
12:20:28  <Phazorx> upgrade is a relegion imo
12:20:35  <valhallasw> kde :'(
12:20:37  <Brianetta> I'd already given up on Gentoo at home, because it took so long to upgrade that the *next* one was available by the time it had finished.
12:20:38  <valhallasw> xfce4 O+
12:20:55  <Phazorx> some people think it is a way to save and imptrove things.. i mostly dont believe in it :)
12:20:55  <Ailure> hah
12:21:05  <Ailure> unlike why I love the package manager in Linux
12:21:14  <Ailure> almost anything I installed through the package manager
12:21:16  <Ailure> is easily upgradable
12:21:26  <Ailure> in a painless way
12:21:26  <Brianetta> Also, I took the time to measure performance on Gentoo and on subsequent Fedora installations
12:21:35  <Brianetta> About parity, was the result.
12:21:45  <Ailure> heh Fedora
12:21:50  <Ailure> First distrobution I used
12:22:02  <valhallasw> I hear good stories about ubuntu
12:22:03  <Brianetta> My first was Slackware Professional Linux 2.0
12:22:11  <Ailure> I used some early version of it
12:22:14  <Brianetta> I currently recommend Ubuntu to the LUG embers
12:22:14  <Ailure> where some stuff was broken
12:22:19  <Ailure> I tried slackware next
12:22:25  <Ailure> LUG?
12:22:30  <Brianetta> embers?  hot coals?  I menat members
12:22:34  <valhallasw> linux user group
12:22:36  <Ailure> ah
12:22:37  <valhallasw> or sth
12:22:38  <Ailure> Well
12:22:41  <Brianetta> Ailure: I run
12:22:50  <Brianetta> In fact, I founded it
12:22:56  <Brianetta> we're one of the oldest
12:23:00  <Ailure> intresting
12:23:06  <Ailure> I really enjoy Ubuntu
12:23:10  <valhallasw> bbl
12:23:13  <Ailure> and that's someone who tried severeal linux distros and even a BSD
12:23:18  <Ailure> *from someone
12:23:26  <Brianetta> People ask me when I switched from Windows
12:23:29  <Brianetta> I laugh at them
12:23:33  <Brianetta> I actually switched from DOS
12:23:35  <Phazorx> Brianetta: not sure about fedora, but i moved from RHEL to gentoo
12:23:56  <Phazorx> compiling own kernel and optimizing DB binaries gave 10-15%
12:24:05  <Brianetta> Phazorx: My real beef with Gentoo is the amount of active maintenance it requires.
12:24:26  <Phazorx> Brianetta: well i'm not sure if any is required
12:24:31  <Brianetta> emerging a new package often requires updating other things, and you need to be careful every damned time
12:24:38  <Phazorx> unless you constaly mod/develop whatever the box is doing
12:24:53  <Brianetta> "ooh, I think I'll try that network analyser"
12:25:13  <Phazorx> Brianetta: on a working server
12:25:22  <Brianetta> Phazorx: This was my desktop
12:25:29  <Phazorx> you are going to try to do soemthing that is capable of messing u your whole setup?
12:25:35  <Brianetta> I wouldn't even consider Gentoo on a machine I couldn't physically reach
12:25:37  <Phazorx> well so that is your test box
12:25:44  <Phazorx> it meants to be rebooted
12:25:45  <Brianetta> My test box?
12:25:47  <Brianetta> No
12:25:52  <Brianetta> That's the machine I work on
12:26:08  <Brianetta> Installing packages on other distributions doesn't affect stability
12:26:22  <Phazorx> with servers there was one dedicated test/spare, which was doing compiling/updating and maintained local portage mirror
12:26:26  <Ailure> [14:24] <Brianetta> I wouldn't even consider Gentoo on a machine I couldn't physically reach
12:26:27  <Ailure> Obviously
12:26:35  <Ailure> I mean heh
12:26:47  <Ailure> I help a friend of mine to adminstrate a Linux server in a server farm
12:26:48  <Phazorx> so other servers with identical setup just sync from it if really neded
12:26:54  <Phazorx> uptime was tree nines
12:26:58  <Ailure> the few times it have gone down for random reasons it's been painful to get it up again
12:27:05  <Ailure> usually hardware related failures
12:27:45  <Ailure> so I can only imagine what would happen if you just do a improper update that breaks SSH or even the system as whole
12:28:29  <Phazorx> Ailure: yet agaion i'm against updationg unless you have really good reason
12:28:47  <Phazorx> and you dont just *try* updating soemthing that is unreachalble and meant to be up all time
12:28:48  <Ailure> we don't upgrade often on that server
12:28:51  <Brianetta> Really good reasons include security updates
12:28:53  <Ailure> I upgrade whenever I can on my laptop though
12:29:03  <Brianetta> You can't leave old packages on internet servers
12:29:09  <Ailure> and yeah, that's true
12:29:10  <Phazorx> Brianetta: i tend to separate pieces that ensure security and do work
12:29:28  <Brianetta> Separate how?  What if it's an ssh vulnerability?
12:29:30  <Ailure> security problems tend to get widely known fast
12:29:52  <Brianetta> and lo, the update requires 14 other updates
12:29:56  <Phazorx> well i dont think ANY of servers that might be vulerable should be SSH availabled from the net
12:30:02  <Phazorx> now of servers i managed were
12:30:20  <Phazorx> there was dedeicated LAN for console acces with VPN access to it
12:30:36  <Brianetta> I can't afford that amount of datacentre space
12:30:39  <Brianetta> 1u is all I rent
12:30:58  <Brianetta> and I have zero physical access
12:31:02  <Phazorx> well you should not be conserned much about security having not that much of scale
12:31:06  <Brianetta> unless I buy time in the build room
12:31:17  <Brianetta> I shouldn't be concerned with security?
12:31:26  <Brianetta> It's my first, and often only, concern
12:31:43  <Brianetta> If my box is compromised, I am totally screwed
12:32:38  <Phazorx> well security updates based on internet based bulettin is not a guarantee, since it is reactive rather than proactive
12:32:59  <Brianetta> If I were to be proactive, I lose all portage benefits.
12:33:22  <Brianetta> As it happens, Trustix excels in every respect over Gewntoo, on my server.
12:33:32  <Phazorx> if i care about security i emply preventive methods to level of not having a need to deploy patches/updates unless there is a major software change
12:34:02  <Brianetta> You can't learn about security holes first, unless you're some kind of psychic
12:34:03  <Phazorx> like hoin from apache/modphp/mysql4 to lighttpd/fastcgi/mysql5
12:34:16  <Brianetta> They have their own holes
12:34:32  <Phazorx> Brianetta: exactly so you stop having "things" that might have/develop security holes
12:34:38  <Brianetta> Like saying, because I switched to dovecot, I don't need to worry about POP3 vulnerabilities
12:34:58  <Brianetta> Still, despite its total emphasis on security, it's had several security fixes this year.
12:35:03  <Phazorx> Brianetta: if you switch to exchange - you dont tho
12:35:07  <Phazorx> because pop is not used anymore
12:35:21  <Phazorx> so you dont need ssh upades if there is no way to get to ssh
12:35:32  <Phazorx> you donty need to worry about apache updates if you dont use apache
12:35:41  <Brianetta> I'm not going to switch to a proprietary system.  They have security hoes that don't even get looked at.
12:35:43  <Phazorx> you dont need phpnuke/wordpost fizxes if you dont have them
12:36:03  <Brianetta> Phazorx: You need fixes for the things you have instead
12:36:11  <Phazorx> well i'm not suggesting that, but that is the general apraoch
12:36:15  <Brianetta> Crumbs, I run my own web software
12:36:21  <Brianetta> I write my own security fixes
12:36:30  <Phazorx> fixing whole is not guaranteeing anything, not having them in first places gives confidence
12:36:36  <Brianetta> Avoiding popular software isn't the issue
12:36:46  <Brianetta> I *need* a web server
12:36:53  <Brianetta> I *need* ssh
12:37:09  <Brianetta> In fact, I use ssh to secure a bunch of other protocols.
12:37:13  <Phazorx> you webserver can be limited in functionality to what you need
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12:37:36  <Brianetta> It can?
12:37:43  <Phazorx> ssh can be limited to only set of ips, or betetr yet use different network interfaface with VPN
12:37:52  <Brianetta> I need to connect from anywhere
12:37:56  <Brianetta> including dynamic IPs
12:38:06  <Phazorx> Brianetta: nope, you dont, you can proxy
12:38:13  <Brianetta> I am proxying at the moment
12:38:31  <Brianetta> and there are some IP based restrictions
12:38:36  <Phazorx> i used radmin to my work box, or ssh to it even from blackberry, and then get to server
12:38:40  <Brianetta> but what makes my SSH secure isn't that
12:39:01  <Brianetta> It's using keys only, and automatically blocking IPs that attempt to log in with a password.
12:39:16  <Phazorx> well not having listner on port 22 on same IP you run webserver is much better
12:39:17  <Brianetta> In any case, the issue isn't whether SSH should or shouldn't be used
12:39:28  <Brianetta> It's whether Gentoo can adequately provide secure updates
12:39:42  <Brianetta> Bearing in mind that Trustix can, and it never, ever breaks
12:40:11  <Phazorx> as efficient as any other compiled OS i guess
12:40:24  <Phazorx> i have nothing againstr trustix and given your situation it is a wise choice
12:40:52  <Phazorx> how right tool for right job is a good philosophy
12:41:15  <Phazorx> if you need a lot of people you use bus, if you need to get there fast you use sportscar
12:41:41  <Phazorx> doesnt mean evier is bad as long as they are used within relm of their capabilities
12:42:45  <Phazorx> point being - gentoo with it's "flawed" system of updates and "inability" to guess what user might need in future and eliminating these options of expandability has it's place
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14:14:38  <frosch123> <- my new tool :)
14:15:27  <Amixwoktest> nice
14:15:33  <Amixwoktest> now support MorphOS ;)
14:16:17  <Amixwoktest> Born_Acorn: what sort of os is RiscOS really?
14:16:26  <Amixwoktest> ive allways wondered about Acorn
14:16:42  <Amixwoktest> looked at it as a competitor to Amiga back in days
14:18:25  <Rubidium> now write a delphi parser for GCC ;)
14:19:09  <frosch123> try freepascal
14:19:17  <frosch123> except pngdelphi, it should work
14:19:26  <Amixwoktest> write in DSL language
14:19:39  <Amixwoktest> and you suddendly support way more plattforms
14:19:41  <Amixwoktest> ;)
14:20:13  <Rubidium> isn't dsl a little too low level to be usefull?
14:20:31  <Amixwoktest> no
14:20:44  <Amixwoktest> Pixel32 etc is SDL product
14:21:27  <Rubidium> oh.. I had HDL in mind ;)
14:22:14  <Amixwoktest>
14:22:18  <Amixwoktest> :)
14:23:24  <Amixwoktest> Pixel is a RGB, CMYK and HDR image editing, photo retouching, graphics manipulating and animation program available for many operating systems formerly known as Pixel32. It is available for Windows, Linux, Linspire, MacOSX, BeOS, Zeta, QNX, MorphOS, FreeBSD, eComStation, OS/2, SkyOS and even old plain DOS, for both x86 and PowerPC architectures.
14:23:59  <Rubidium> boring... who cares about pixels in the context of nfo?
14:24:13  <Amixwoktest> ¿
14:24:38  <Rubidium> (yes, I know his post says grf, but it's rather the nfo-part of the GRF it handles than the pcx part)
14:25:12  <Amixwoktest> ohh
14:25:20  <Amixwoktest> ill stop now
14:25:31  <Amixwoktest> because now i dont know what were talking about, lol
14:25:32  <Amixwoktest> ;p
14:25:36  <frosch123> But it reads grfs. They are a lot easier to parse, than nfo.
14:41:41  <Progman> frosch123: how looks a sample html file?
14:43:01  <frosch123> decode one :)
14:43:22  <Progman> no wine atm
14:43:57  <Progman> you should provide an example in the forum post anyway
14:44:23  <frosch123> Then tell me one, which I can publish without making the author angry.
14:44:48  <Progman> ah, damn, of course...
14:44:57  <Belugas> whooo.... cool tool :)
14:44:59  <Belugas> just saw it
14:47:04  <Rubidium> Ammler's nothing.grf (I think)
14:51:13  <frosch123> Hmm, perhaps I can make some screenshots, which noone can associate to a grf...
14:51:47  * dihedral|work greets Belugas
14:52:29  * Belugas sendsd back greetings to dihedral|work
14:52:39  * TrueBrain slaps dihedral|work
14:53:15  * dihedral|work slaps TrueBrain back
14:53:26  <dihedral|work> what was that for
14:53:31  <TrueBrain> nothing
14:53:34  <TrueBrain> just felt like it
14:53:36  <dihedral|work> :-P
14:54:09  <dihedral|work> thought i might have said something while you were gone that you just could have read in the logs
14:54:49  <TrueBrain> who knowsw :p
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15:03:54  <ln-> wtf, someone having a race in F1 gp, positions changing without pitstops;
15:04:50  <ln-> doesn't sound like the good old "schumacher is on the 1st position and has 3-minute gap to the second one"
15:05:13  <hylje> UNPOSSIBLE
15:06:46  <mcbane> unpossible?
15:07:20  <dihedral|work> abso-f'n-lutely
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15:16:08  <SmatZ> hello
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15:34:37  <frosch123> another 123 :)
15:36:00  <Sionide> beginning with f as well
15:36:49  <TrueBrain> depending on how much either one of you two are going to chat, I guess that will be confusing, and will lead to kicks :p
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15:39:48  <TrueBrain> bah, no kicking today :(
15:42:15  <Ammler> TrueBrain: kicking is a good keyword, is it hard to extend the function banning for a whole subnet?
15:42:45  * TrueBrain sets mode +b *!*@*.ch
15:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm afraid he means in the game :p
15:49:04  <TrueBrain> bah
15:49:58  <Ammler> our workaround is atm to ban the guy from IRC and web
15:50:12  <Ammler> so, he can't get the password
15:50:26  <glx> like soup?
15:50:30  <Ammler> yep
15:51:36  <Ammler> but maybe there is a "builtin function" for C++ to compare with subnets?
15:51:48  <TrueBrain> it means you need to get the rdns
15:51:58  <TrueBrain> which currently isn't implemented at all I think
15:52:06  <TrueBrain> so it takes a bit of work, but not undoable
15:52:16  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: rdns?
15:52:25  <Phazorx> Ammler means by ip + cidr
15:52:37  <Ammler> I don't need dns for banning subnets
15:52:49  <TrueBrain> you want to ban on IP base...
15:52:52  <TrueBrain> doable, but less useful
15:52:54  <Ammler> sometinng like 192.*
15:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> you mean in the form of 192.168.0.*
15:53:00  <TrueBrain> if you do it, you can better do it based on dns
15:53:00  <Phazorx> no
15:53:08  <TrueBrain> a bit more effort, but more useful
15:53:08  <Phazorx> i mean
15:53:17  <TrueBrain> anyway, feel free to make a patch ;)
15:53:20  <Ammler> Phazorx: is there a difference?
15:53:28  <Phazorx> Ammler: cidr more flexible
15:53:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> in german we say "das selbe in grÃŒn"
15:53:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> or "dasselbe", i'm never sure...
15:54:17  <Ammler> Àhm, TrueBrain, I ask you because you know C++ better (much) then me, so you might know if there is already a function...
15:54:38  <Ammler> you don't have to do it
15:55:10  <Phazorx> Ammler: - bans only 8 ips
15:55:24  <Phazorx> Ammler: - bans othjer 8 ips
15:55:59  <Ammler> Phazorx: it depense on the function, which you can use
15:56:00  <TrueBrain> Ammler: in fact, because of a 'bug' you had this feature a while back
15:56:06  <TrueBrain> 'someone' fixed it :p
15:56:08  <Phazorx> and isp buy ip ranges in these segments so bans for ips/locale makes much more sense with bitmask
15:56:33  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: still, rdns-based makes much more sense ;)
15:56:50  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: just as much sense, perhaps easier to manage tho
15:56:52  <TrueBrain> (as ISPs have several ip-ranges ;))
15:57:14  <Ammler> yeah, like the IRC
15:57:14  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: i dont mind digging ips and whoising isps for desired effect
15:57:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> +b *
15:57:20  <Phazorx> i do mind lacking ability to do it
15:57:40  <Ammler> just begin with IP-Masks
15:57:42  <Phazorx> and yet again i dont want to ban whole isp in most cases
15:57:59  <Phazorx> but i can find out with whois exact range dedicated to some area in case if that applies
15:58:06  <Phazorx> which makes targeting much mroe presize
15:58:17  <Phazorx> rdns will not help in this case
15:58:45  <TrueBrain> rdns still is more useful :)
15:58:53  <TrueBrain> as most ISPs are smart enough to put the area in the rdns
15:58:58  <TrueBrain> but okay, I say: make a patch :)
15:59:03  <Phazorx> well my point is cidr range is easier to do and will do the job
15:59:07  <TrueBrain> and no Ammler, I simply don't have the time to do it
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16:02:56  <Ammler> I repeat me, but I never asked you to do it, just asked you, if there is a function in C++ where can already compare such things
16:03:22  <TrueBrain> oh, sorry, misread you
16:03:27  <TrueBrain> happens :p
16:03:47  <TrueBrain> for what Phazorx suggests, I wouldn't know a function, but I guess it isn't that hard
16:03:57  <TrueBrain> convert the IP to an int, and you can do some nice bitshifting
16:04:03  <Belugas> always when coming back from hiliday :) takes a while to get back on work :D
16:04:06  <TrueBrain> for what I suggest, you need regexp support to do it nicely
16:04:20  <TrueBrain> not default C++ either
16:05:05  <Ammler> hmm, maybe Phazorx will try a little bit with C?
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16:05:31  <Phazorx> Ammler: as i suggested before - norroing some code for apache wil ldo the trick
16:05:40  <Phazorx> and last time i was doing c was about 10 years ago
16:05:53  <Ammler> yeah, good reason for a comming back
16:06:01  <TrueBrain> lol, using Apache to find this function (or any other for that matter) will take much longer than a good search :)
16:06:03  <Phazorx> well at least to the level of acomplishing something worth having a name next to it :)
16:06:24  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: i dont think i can word it good enough
16:06:33  <Phazorx> but any other utility that can read cidr mask will do
16:06:55  <Phazorx> it is as easy as parsing string from config differently and applying proper bitmask tho
16:07:17  <TrueBrain> as I said, convert to int, and apply bitmask ;)
16:07:23  <TrueBrain> (shifting)
16:07:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> <TrueBrain> convert the IP to an int, and you can do some nice bitshifting <- just & it with the subnet mask
16:07:39  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: you want shifting, to do comparing :)
16:07:49  <TrueBrain> the /29 means >> 3, and compare the 2 values
16:07:57  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: xor more like it
16:07:59  <TrueBrain> euh..
16:07:59  <TrueBrain> doh
16:08:03  <TrueBrain> but okay
16:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, why xor?
16:08:34  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause2: becasue cidr works that way
16:08:40  <TrueBrain> no, what I said should work
16:08:58  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: i meant you compare xored result to 0
16:09:10  <Phazorx> the shifting is ecatly as you described
16:09:22  <TrueBrain> yeah, I was confused by my own math
16:09:28  <TrueBrain> but okay
16:10:03  <TrueBrain> inet_addr(ban_ip) >> (32 - subnet) == inet_addr(client_ip): kick
16:10:09  <TrueBrain> euh
16:10:14  <TrueBrain> inet_addr(ban_ip) >> (32 - subnet) == inet_addr(client_ip) >> (32 - subnet): kick
16:10:46  <Phazorx> hmm
16:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> it does not matter much, if you xor, shift, and compare to 0, or if you shift twice, and check for equality
16:10:56  <Ammler> and this patch should work also only on server side
16:10:57  <Phazorx> xoring is still required
16:11:12  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: why?
16:11:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> A xor B == 0 is equivalent to A == B
16:11:44  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: trying to word it properly hang on
16:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> what the compiler or processor does with these expressions is a whole different story
16:12:29  <Phazorx> i guess since you do it other way - it does not ened to be xored
16:12:35  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: and who cares, as long as it works :p
16:12:42  <Phazorx> you are trunking uneffective bits and comparing the res
16:12:57  <Phazorx> i was thinking of comparing base and xoring mask
16:12:59  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: which is what a subnetmask does, when banning ;)
16:13:07  <Phazorx> diff aproaches but same result
16:13:24  <TrueBrain> problem about xoring mask, is that you have the value 29
16:13:36  <TrueBrain> you need to make that into 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1000
16:13:51  <Phazorx> or <<29 instead of >>3
16:14:04  <Phazorx> your logic is fine tho
16:14:21  <Phazorx> mine was just doing reverse of what you had in mind
16:14:31  <TrueBrain> I just wonder how to make that bitmask from the number 29...
16:14:37  <TrueBrain> in an efficient way
16:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> -1 << 3?
16:14:49  <TrueBrain> hmm, good point
16:15:03  <Phazorx> -1 is less efficient than 0xffffff :)
16:15:08  <TrueBrain> ((uint32)-1) << 3
16:15:09  <TrueBrain> but yeah :)
16:15:17  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: (uint32)-1 == 0xFFFFFFFF
16:15:35  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: 0xffffffff is a constant :)
16:15:46  <TrueBrain> -1 too :)
16:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> Phazorx: it's totally a compiler issue, there is nothing about efficiency...
16:15:52  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: worse: it is machine issue :)
16:15:56  <TrueBrain> -1 == 0xFFFFFFFF
16:16:00  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: there was something about ansi c misrepresenting -1 long time ago
16:16:06  <TrueBrain> either in (int32) or (uint32)
16:16:09  <Phazorx> perhaps it does not apply to cpp though
16:16:20  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: ANSI C can't misrepresent anything in this matter
16:16:26  <TrueBrain> it is how machines are build these days :)
16:16:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, it is the issue of the compiler to convert the representation (-1) to the same as (0xFFFFFFFF)
16:16:39  <TrueBrain> we use two-forgotname
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16:16:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> two-complement
16:16:56  <TrueBrain> thank you
16:16:59  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: -1 would become longint if used in context with casting type on it 1st i mean
16:17:08  <Phazorx> without i meant
16:17:21  <TrueBrain> therefor you need the cast, yes ;)
16:17:28  <TrueBrain> but the asm should be the same
16:17:33  <TrueBrain> would be fun to check it out :)
16:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> your level of discussion is way too low for my taste :p
16:17:52  <TrueBrain> low, as in low-level? :p
16:17:56  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: well imagine a routine like if((unit) X == -1) { dostuff();}
16:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> TrueBrain: the ambiguity is deliberate :p
16:18:44  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: that is a pretty faulty statement :) What does work: if (X == (uint)-1)
16:18:52  <TrueBrain> -1 doesn't have a real value if you don't put it in a cast ;)
16:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> Phazorx: the compiler should warn about that
16:19:05  <TrueBrain> (uint64)-1 != (uint32)-1
16:19:09  <Phazorx> anwyay, this should not apply these days since it has been know for long while
16:19:31  <TrueBrain> (but okay, (uint64)1 != (uint32)1 either :p
16:19:32  <TrueBrain> hehe
16:19:49  <TrueBrain> so that is a nice faulty statement :p
16:19:54  <TrueBrain> (what I wrote :p)
16:20:02  <Phazorx> well my point was e if((uint) X == 1) would have worked as desired
16:20:12  <Phazorx> whereas e if((uint) X == -1) would not
16:20:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> depends on what you desire
16:20:26  <TrueBrain> indeed :)
16:20:30  <Ammler> TrueBrain: depense on little or big endian
16:20:33  <TrueBrain> but as Eddi|zuHause2 said, the compiler should warn :)
16:20:39  <TrueBrain> Ammler: not really
16:20:43  <TrueBrain> -1 = 0xFF
16:20:47  <TrueBrain> in which ever amount of bytes
16:20:48  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause2: if x being the one in 1st case and -1 in second to procede with following statement
16:20:52  <TrueBrain> so in that case, it doesn't matter ;)
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16:21:02  <TrueBrain> Ammler: for -2 you are right ;)
16:21:49  <Phazorx> if 0xff is -1 what would be 0xfe+1 ?
16:22:10  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: signed? -1 ;)
16:22:13  <Ammler> -2+1=-1
16:22:16  <TrueBrain> as 0xFE is -2, if a signed byte
16:22:34  <Phazorx> ahh well we got to signed already
16:22:39  <Phazorx> i missed that step
16:22:57  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: -1 is 0xFF in unsigned too, although that statement is kind of tricky to state :)
16:23:00  <Phazorx> still thinking of uint and int being word ratehr than byte :)
16:23:03  <TrueBrain> (as -1 is invalud in unsigned :p)
16:23:19  <TrueBrain> oh bla, who cares :p
16:23:46  <Ammler> so, who does make the patch for IP Masks now?
16:23:51  <Phazorx> well we'd really appriciate ip/cidr capability in future
16:24:42  <Ammler> !s/future/now/
16:24:58  <Rubidium> Ammler: iptables
16:25:09  <TrueBrain> haha @ Rubidium :)
16:25:18  <Ammler> :)
16:25:30  <Phazorx> Rubidium: it narrows down to like chaing of 5 lines in the code now, 3 of which being comments
16:25:53  <Rubidium> Phazorx: I've heard that a lot
16:25:59  <Rubidium> it's "just" one line of code
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16:26:17  <Phazorx> iptables provides nice functionality but that feature already developed in game, just need a bit of widening
16:26:21  <Rubidium> and finally the diff is 50 kB before they actually got it working
16:26:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> "there are only 3 commands needed to install gentoo" :p
16:26:25  <Phazorx> Rubidium: TrueBrain pretty much even stated that line
16:26:47  <Phazorx> just ened to put it in right place
16:26:50  <TrueBrain>  if (sin.sin_addr.s_addr == inet_addr(_network_ban_list[i])) {
16:27:02  <TrueBrain> that is the only line needs changing
16:27:07  <TrueBrain> the tricky part is to allow the subnet mask
16:27:17  <Sacro> rawr
16:27:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think there is a little more needed to change the ban command
16:27:22  <Rubidium> the "tricky" part is reading the subnet mask
16:27:28  <Rubidium> the rest is simple
16:27:29  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is what I said ;)
16:27:36  <TrueBrain> strrchr ;)
16:27:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> that is what i meant ;)
16:27:43  <Phazorx> oh yeah... that isnt perl and RE i forgot :)
16:27:46  <TrueBrain> check for /, and it should be easy :)
16:28:04  <Ammler> we could begin with just one format
16:28:18  <Rubidium> yup, not we do IP/32
16:28:20  <Phazorx> Ammler: and end with just one as well :)
16:28:28  <Rubidium> and we should add IP/0
16:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> and then convert 192.168.0.* to
16:28:50  <Ammler> hmm, thats fine in future
16:29:04  <Phazorx> i dont think * thingy is really ended in case if you have cidr
16:29:25  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: many many many many many many many many <..> people don't understand how cidr works
16:29:32  <TrueBrain> ending up with bans on IP/0
16:29:40  <Ammler> Phazorx: not everyone can calculate the bitshift or how is that called?
16:29:55  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: many people dont know how to drive... yet they get a book, try and eventualy get a license
16:30:04  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: this is different
16:30:12  <TrueBrain> people do know how to do 192.168.0.*
16:30:17  <Phazorx> Ammler: this is go to whoispage for isp and copy/paste
16:30:23  <TrueBrain> like many people know how to drive a car, but a few try to drive motor
16:30:30  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: in most cases * will not so what you want
16:30:36  <Phazorx> and you end up banning too many or too few
16:30:40  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: yup
16:30:51  <TrueBrain> mask-banning in general has that effect
16:31:04  <Phazorx> proper mask banning has less/does not
16:31:06  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2:* then doesn't work...
16:31:11  <TrueBrain> (if I screw up in a server, and get a /29 ban for example, my neighbour can't join either)
16:31:22  <Ammler> I would begin with 24
16:31:35  <TrueBrain> even a /30 puts my neighbour out of the server too
16:31:37  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: that's really the price for that
16:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> Rubidium: no, if you use that syntax, you can only ban /0, /8, /16 etc.
16:31:46  <Phazorx> i banned whole state because of one prick :)
16:31:48  <TrueBrain> as said, mask-banning in genral has a big downside ;)
16:32:08  <Phazorx> but having cidr mask it can be targeted more specificaly
16:32:12  <TrueBrain> yup
16:32:28  <Phazorx> and if people really like entering * in config - that cane be autoreplaced to /8 /16 or /24
16:32:49  <Ammler> but in future :)
16:32:49  <Phazorx> unless you want soemthing crazy like a.*.b.c
16:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i think that replacement is rather trivial
16:32:52  <Rubidium> Phazorx: then people *expect**1 to work too
16:32:54  <Sacro> why not use subnet nasking
16:33:01  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: whould they?
16:33:05  <Sacro>
16:33:10  <Phazorx> Rubidium: these people should stop doing RE in C :)
16:33:26  <Phazorx> Sacro: cidr is same
16:33:30  <Phazorx> just properly noted
16:33:54  <Rubidium> Sacro: technically that what you've written isn't correct
16:33:55  <Ammler> Sacro: thats, I guess
16:34:10  <Phazorx> and realy i'm talking about much lesser change for these who have the knowledge and can use it like tomorrow
16:34:24  <Phazorx> and you want to offere more features while complaining it is more than 5 lines of code
16:37:58  <TrueBrain>
16:38:00  <TrueBrain> or something
16:38:06  <TrueBrain> hmm
16:38:09  <TrueBrain> not 100% correct
16:38:25  <Phazorx> thanks TrueBrain
16:38:30  <TrueBrain> reload
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16:39:07  <TrueBrain> totally untested
16:39:09  <TrueBrain> even not compiled
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16:40:39  <Ammler> Phazorx: do you test it?
16:41:19  <Phazorx> have no means atm
16:41:35  <Phazorx> will test later when i get back home
16:41:47  <Phazorx> but i hope by then it'll be in trunk already :)
16:42:21  <TrueBrain> I won't do it :)
16:42:25  <TrueBrain> I just wondered if it really took 5 lines :p
16:42:30  <Phazorx> oh cmon
16:42:32  <Phazorx> so close
16:42:49  <TrueBrain> testing is a bitch :p
16:42:50  <TrueBrain> no time :)
16:43:14  <Ammler> yeah, np, do you see a problem, if we only patch the server?
16:43:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> little boxes, on the hillside...
16:43:50  <TrueBrain> Ammler: my patch won't work
16:44:06  <Phazorx> Ammler: a modded working version of that - can be done server side only
16:45:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> what happens if the server bans itself?
16:45:47  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: nothing
16:46:04  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause2: care to elablorate on HOW server can ban itself
16:46:19  <Phazorx> like grew hands and type that command somewhere?
16:46:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> /ban your.ip?
16:46:32  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause2: and where that line would come from?
16:47:04  <TrueBrain> so, my patch given, knowing itoa should be atoi, who is going to finish my lovely patch and test it?
16:47:10  <TrueBrain> one of you knows C, right? :)
16:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm busy...
16:48:52  <Rubidium> lovely ain't it... everybody is busy enough to not care about subnet banning :)
16:49:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't run a server, nor do i play online, so it is definitely not my immediate problem :p
16:50:00  <Ammler> :(
16:50:36  <Ammler> is there a dev, who does also play OTTD?
16:50:50  <Sacro> nope
16:50:54  <Sacro> none of the devs play
16:51:12  <Ammler> The game for them is developing OTTD
16:51:15  <TrueBrain> I never did, why would I?
16:51:18  <glx> we play only to debug :)
16:51:24  <TrueBrain> I never even started the game
16:51:26  <TrueBrain> don't know how it looks like
16:51:36  <TrueBrain> my work is always theoretical
16:51:39  <TrueBrain> others do the testing
16:51:56  <Ammler> oh, I know, you played...
16:52:06  <TrueBrain> doh, busted
16:52:20  <Rubidium> Ammler: when?
16:52:32  <Ammler> beginning of coop
16:52:35  <Rubidium> you must be confusing TrueBrain with TrueLight or so
16:52:43  <Ammler> oh sry, yes
16:52:54  <TrueBrain> yeah, that is someone else
16:52:55  <TrueBrain> I think
16:55:49  <Ammler> we are planning a coopetition game on #openttdcoop, maybe devs would like to be a group against us?
16:56:17  <Ammler> oh, no, they have patched clients and will cheat all the time... :)
16:56:43  <TrueBrain> nah, we just have a special login-code
16:57:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11193 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Fix: be more compliant with the specifications of callback #2F (and undocumented side effects in TTDP in corner cases).
17:01:10  <Ammler> ok, whish you all a nice evening
17:01:58  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:03:40  <TrueBrain> have fun Ammler :)
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17:12:28  <Wolf01> hello
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17:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> <TrueBrain> yeah, that is someone else <- nothing better than a tiny bit of schitzophreny :p
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17:20:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> makes for a great deal of excuses :p
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17:23:48  <dihedral> hello
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17:36:43  <skidd13> TTRS 3.02a makes OpenTTD look ugly. All text is gone and I see parts of bridges on the screen :(
17:38:51  *** orudge [~orudge@] has quit []
17:40:06  <Rubidium> skidd13: any idea since when?
17:41:38  <skidd13> nope
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17:42:34  <TrueBrain> welcome orudge
17:42:44  <orudge> Hello there
17:42:53  <orudge> although, I was always here ;)
17:42:56  <orudge> I just accidentally pressed apple-Q
17:43:01  <TrueBrain> doh :p
17:43:05  <dihedral> hello orudge
17:43:14  * orudge finally got his new PC working today
17:43:25  <orudge> so once I get things sorted out, I'll be able to compile OS/2 :p
17:44:45  * ProfFrink compiles OS/4
17:45:37  <ProfFrink> Hey!
17:45:43  *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
17:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> OS/4... is that half a half an OS?
17:46:20  * Prof_Frink wonders when oftc dopped out of his keepnick config
17:46:33  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: No, a quarter. Duh.
17:48:32  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11194 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: industries with not all tiles custom slope checked (but at least one) would be build on wrongly sloped tiles.
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18:39:07  <orudge> Prof_Frink! oi! you! nutter!
18:40:42  <Prof_Frink> Y'what, eh?
18:41:08  <orudge> just thought I'd shout at people
18:41:11  <orudge> or, well, a person.
18:41:30  <Prof_Frink> Art thou globester?
18:41:56  <orudge> Well, no.
18:42:00  <orudge> But I just thought I'd do it anyway.
18:42:04  <orudge> This place was a bit quite, y'know.
18:42:07  <orudge> quiet
18:42:07  <orudge> even.
18:42:35  <Sacro> ofudge its an orudge
18:43:10  <orudge> it's you
18:43:15  <orudge> you appear to have been somewhat vanished over the past few days
18:43:22  <Sacro> nope, i'm here
18:43:31  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11195 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: creation chances for industries during gameplay and during map generation were swapped.
18:43:34  <orudge> no, on #tycoon, innit
18:43:48  <orudge> but ah well
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18:44:03  <Sacro> yes, i have removed it from my bouncer's autojoin list
18:44:30  <Sacro> right, to the Hull-LUG!
18:47:46  <mattt_> Hull.. as in Hull, Quebec?
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19:24:03  <globester> jow
19:25:14  <globester> got ottd 0.5.3, latest nightly, after sh40 appearing in 1973 ottd suddenly says i have 65.345 kirbies :o
19:25:34  <globester> also i can't build the sh40
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19:29:08  <Bjarni> ahh
19:29:11  <Bjarni> finally home :D
19:31:25  <globester> \o/
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19:38:00  <Bjarni> well, my current task: finish assignment for tomorrow
19:43:28  <skidd13> good night
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20:20:37  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: glx * r11196 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r11191): _cur_stage was incorrect for GLS_ACTIVATION stage
20:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> since when do we have CIA-4?
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20:22:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i just wondered that he has a strange colour today
20:22:42  <SmatZ> [19:24:21] <-- CIA-1 has left this server (
20:22:42  <SmatZ> [19:24:36] --> CIA-4 has joined this channel (cia@
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20:44:12  <mcbane> heh glx was 3 seconds faster with that comment =P
20:44:58  <glx> hehe
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21:01:42  <Bjarni> quit timing out
21:01:53  <Bjarni> you are interrupting all the important stuff going on in here :P
21:02:13  <Amixwoktest> yeah
21:02:26  <globester> i've got a question though
21:02:31  <Amixwoktest> :=)
21:02:44  <globester> got ottd 0.5.3, latest nightly, after sh40 appearing in 1973 ottd suddenly says i have 65.345 kirbies
21:03:03  <Bjarni> 0.5.3 or nightly?
21:03:04  <globester> loaded the autosave but now the sh40 doesn't appear at all heh
21:03:09  <globester> nightly
21:03:22  <Amixwoktest> latest one?
21:03:29  <globester> r11181
21:03:43  <Rubidium> that is NOT the latest one...
21:03:51  <Bjarni> sounds very much like you substracted more kirbies than you actually sold
21:03:51  <globester> :o
21:04:04  <globester> well, i didn't have any kirbies to start with heh
21:04:12  <Bjarni> o_O
21:04:27  <globester> i think it happened right after sh40's appearing
21:04:37  <globester> when i reloaded it says i have 0 :/
21:04:42  <Bjarni> try to reproduce this
21:04:51  <globester> yeah, i was trying it
21:04:58  <Bjarni> the number of engines is not saved, but counted on load
21:05:12  <globester> after the reload the sh40 didn't appear at all though
21:05:13  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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21:06:27  <mcbane> bjarni that buf is somewhere in the bugtracker
21:06:41  <mcbane> buf = bug
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21:16:49  *** fjb [] has joined #openttd
21:16:56  <fjb> Moin
21:18:07  * Hendikins plays a game of "how much coal can you get in a 20x20 station catchment area?"
21:18:38  <mcbane> sers
21:18:48  <fjb> Hendikins, the king of coal. :-)
21:19:01  <Ammler> I liked to test the "forbidden" basetunnels on openttd, how can I simulate unifiedmaglev=1?
21:19:07  <Hendikins> fjb: I'm just adding more and more mines to try and saturate my route.
21:19:10  <Rafagd> (x coal = money hax =\ x) 147
21:19:41  <fjb> What are "forbidden" basetunnels?
21:19:43  * Hendikins is only actually using 20x3 for trains, and has scattered bits of detached station to cover the catchment area
21:20:14  <Ammler> fjb: they are from eis_os and mustn't be used on OTTD.
21:20:29  <fjb> Do you play in desert? I never have anough space between the mountains.
21:21:00  <fjb> And what is eis_os?
21:21:34  <mcbane> eis_os is a TTD dev
21:22:03  <Ammler> he made some cool stuff for TTDPatch and grfcrawler
21:22:16  <fjb> Thank you.
21:23:18  <fjb> I have a question about tram stops. Do the have to be as least as long as the tram?
21:23:40  <glx> no
21:23:43  <dihedral> do you guys consider "teleports" a bug?
21:23:59  <fjb> I guess Einstein would...
21:24:02  <Rubidium> Ammler: base tunnels *are* explicitly disallowed (by the NewGRF) for OpenTTD.
21:24:02  <Bjarni> <fjb> And what is eis_os? <-- it's "who", not "what".... he is a person, not an item :P
21:24:02  <dihedral> i.e. using station spread to make rv's more profitable?
21:24:09  <Rafagd> tram ins not always 1 "car"?
21:24:39  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:24:59  *** Mark is now known as Mark|asleep
21:25:05  <Ammler> Rubidium: you mean, its coded to not support OTTD, wow.
21:25:34  <Wolf01|AWAY> 'night
21:25:36  <Rubidium> exactly
21:25:38  <dihedral> nicht
21:25:39  *** Wolf01|AWAY [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
21:25:44  <dihedral> *night
21:25:56  <fjb> Don't know how articulatet road vehicels work. Thought they get a penalty when loading and unloading when they are longer as the stop. Thought it would be same as when a train is longer then the railway station.
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21:33:38  <Bjarni> looks like Vadim wants to worship me as a god...
21:34:47  <Bjarni> do I appear that all mighty to you?
21:35:33  <fjb> WhO?
21:35:44  <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: How's your thunderbolt-weilding?
21:36:07  <Bjarni> better than you would expect
21:36:18  <Bjarni> fjb: Vadim
21:36:20  *** elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:36:21  <Bjarni> I just told you :P
21:37:10  <Bjarni> will you guys worship me as well?
21:37:27  <fjb> Bjarni: I meant, who appears mighty? :-)
21:37:40  <TrueBrain> @kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over
21:37:41  *** fjb was kicked from #openttd by Bjarni [me]
21:37:41  *** fjb [] has joined #openttd
21:37:49  <TrueBrain> hmm
21:38:00  <TrueBrain> @kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over
21:38:00  *** Bjarni was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Yeah, by kicking you over and over]
21:38:00  *** Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
21:38:02  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
21:38:02  <Bjarni> haha
21:38:04  <TrueBrain> Ah, there it is :)
21:38:13  <fjb> :-P
21:38:25  <Bjarni> even DorpsGek is aware of my new status
21:38:29  <Bjarni> and then again, maybe not
21:39:09  <Bjarni> TrueBrain: don't interrupt me. I'm making a survey based on feedback I got today
21:39:22  <TrueBrain> @kick Bjarni Yeah, by kicking you over and over
21:39:22  *** Bjarni was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Yeah, by kicking you over and over]
21:39:22  *** Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
21:39:25  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
21:39:32  <Bjarni> I want to know if there are similar naive people in here
21:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
21:40:54  <Bjarni> cool
21:41:03  <Bjarni> I could be the start of a new religion
21:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but i think you spoiled your relationship with Sacro already
21:41:12  <Bjarni> oh
21:41:13  * Prof_Frink points Bjarni at the 'o' section of the nicklist
21:42:22  <fjb> Starting a new religion is useless, but maybe you could get rich that way. Hm, lets start a new religion.
21:42:47  <Bjarni> well
21:42:59  <Bjarni> I call it opportunity
21:43:18  <Bjarni> I got worshippers even before I realised that I could start a religion
21:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the question is, if you can get a couple of RICH worshippers
21:45:33  <Bjarni> or convince people that they should sell all their organs and donate the money
21:45:48  <fjb> I you can't, get lots of poor worshippers and tell them to give you they have. :-)
21:46:00  <fjb> If
21:47:18  <Bjarni> actually just as long as people worship me, I can get reduced taxes :D
21:47:36  <Prof_Frink> Just smite the taxman.
21:48:01  * Sacro is highlighted
21:48:06  <fjb> You still pay taxes? :-)
21:48:29  <Bjarni> right now?
21:48:31  <Bjarni> no
21:48:45  <Bjarni> paying income tax would need an income :s
21:48:46  <Sacro> taxies?
21:49:04  <fjb> How can I park a concorde in front of my head qarter?
21:49:05  <Prof_Frink> Taxi for Sacro
21:49:22  <fjb> No taxis, use the bike.
21:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i really do not understand why this 3D thing is not working :(
21:50:06  <Eddi|zuHause> all driver output looks ok
21:54:13  <Sacro> What gets longer when pulled, fits between breasts, inserts neatly in a hole, and works best when jerked?
21:54:13  <Sacro> A Seatbelt!
21:54:48  <Eddi|zuHause> what does "jerked" mean in that context?
21:56:48  <Bjarni> I think it's when you pull it so fast that it locks
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22:01:28  *** KouDy_ [user@] has quit [Quit: Trillian (]
22:03:49  *** gynterk [] has joined #openttd
22:04:38  <gynterk> hey, is there any other way to use 'non-stop' exept with 'TTDPatch comatible nonstop handling'?
22:04:49  <gynterk> Since server admins don't want to enable it...
22:06:04  *** MarkSlap [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:06:39  <Sacro> yes, you can use it without it
22:06:44  <Sacro> just clicky on the button
22:07:32  <gynterk> it doesn't work for me
22:07:36  <gynterk> still stops in station
22:07:45  <Bjarni> yeah
22:07:55  *** MarkSlap [] has joined #openttd
22:07:58  <Bjarni> then it will just head for that station and not stop at any stations on the way
22:08:04  <Bjarni> you can use a waypoint instead
22:08:12  <Bjarni> but they are limited to one tile only
22:08:24  <Bjarni> trains never stops at waypoints
22:08:25  <gynterk> yes
22:08:32  <dihedral> g'night ladies :-)
22:08:58  <gynterk> i wouldn't use non-stop if waypoints wouldn't be limited to one tile ;)
22:09:13  <gynterk> good night dihedral
22:09:54  <Bjarni> waypoints wouldn't be limited to one tile if ludde had understood what they were needed for when he coded them :/
22:10:09  <Sacro> Bjarni: you have the commit rights
22:10:11  <Sacro> EDIT IT
22:10:24  *** dihedral [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox]]
22:10:25  <Bjarni> expanding them to more than one tile is the same as starting over
22:10:46  *** Farden123 [] has joined #openttd
22:10:51  <gynterk> yes, but this would be excellent feature...
22:11:25  <Prof_Frink> Well, if you're starting over, you could use waypoints as an equivalent to ttdpatch's signalling restrictions
22:13:26  <fjb> I think they are different. Way points are one thing, something like signal restrictions are the other. I thought about a kind of penalty marker that you could set on any pice of track.
22:15:50  <fjb> The penalty marker could share same same tile with a signal.
22:16:00  <gynterk> ah and btw, does anyone know a grf what changes signal system in intersections that it's possible to have more than 1 train there, if tracks would set that there would be no way those trains will crash
22:17:08  <Prof_Frink> fjb: And why shouldn't a waypoint?
22:17:12  <fjb> Tekki is working on a new cool signal system. At least I hope he is still working on it.
22:17:42  *** Farden [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:19:01  <SmatZ> there was some NAND signal system - very nice to make complex logic functions :)
22:19:12  <Sacro> SmatZ: NOR is more fun
22:19:20  <SmatZ> :-D
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22:19:24  <Sacro> but quite useless for building a station
22:19:24  <fjb> A way point is a way to tell a train go there. It is something else then setting penalties for the pathfinder. Its mor like a negative penalty. Kind of a reward for the pathfinder.
22:19:31  <Sacro> caused me way too many accidents
22:20:50  *** FlowaPowa [] has quit [Quit: FlowaPowa]
22:20:56  <fjb> We really need the thing that Tekki talked about. It's like the real signal systems work. And they work that way because there is no better way.
22:23:56  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:23:58  <Greyscale> Whats happening here then?
22:24:41  *** FlowaPowa [] has joined #openttd
22:24:45  <Sacro> we are about to have our weekly sacrifice
22:24:52  *** Farden123 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:24:55  <Sacro> just need a n00b
22:25:02  <a1270> i suggest Greyscale
22:25:16  <gynterk> is 10 clients and 8 companies max for a server?
22:25:16  * Bjarni nominates a1270
22:25:17  <Greyscale> Sup.
22:25:28  <Greyscale> I nominate a1270 too, because I can kick his ass.
22:25:44  <Greyscale> that reminds me to check my company
22:25:58  <a1270> i'm sort of kicking your ass.
22:26:19  <gynterk> well I don't know who a1270 is, but i'll nominate a1270
22:26:29  * Sacro tallies the votes
22:26:42  <Sacro> anyone else want to cast one?
22:27:05  <globester> i vote CIA-4
22:27:07  <Greyscale> a1270, your compile of our version of OTTD is still broken
22:27:10  <fjb> How can I look more closely at a tramtrack in a city? Even the transparent buildings make the streets that dark that I don'nt see why my trams just stop at a bend and try to drive straight ahead into the next building.
22:27:14  <a1270> the gods don't like me. they will give you bad crops next year.
22:27:23  <globester> other graphic files fjb?
22:27:43  <Greyscale> Game needs civilian traffic
22:27:50  <Greyscale> like, in large citys, cars that drive about
22:27:55  <fjb> globester: What di you mean?
22:27:55  <Greyscale> and clog the road
22:27:56  <gynterk> how do you build trams ?
22:28:02  <a1270> Greyscale, i just un7zip'd it and i can connect.
22:28:06  <Greyscale> Oo
22:28:07  <gynterk> i wanna drive trams to buildings too
22:28:07  <Greyscale> wierd
22:28:23  *** FlowaPowa [] has quit []
22:28:24  <Greyscale> a1270, relink?
22:28:34  <globester> well if you change the graphics to ones with more contrast it might be easier to see them
22:28:35  <fjb> Trams are in the nightly build.
22:28:58  <gynterk> ah ok
22:29:07  <fjb> Hm, but I don't havfe other graphics at hand.
22:31:11  <fjb> I'm trying th use a magnifier now.
22:32:24  <globester> heh
22:32:40  <gynterk> hmm interesting
22:32:48  <gynterk> i nearly flooded all of my railways
22:32:56  <fjb> Where is the next tram? It's never there when you need one.
22:35:44  <fjb> Hey, it works now. ut is there a way to turn around a stuck tram? I just had to reload an autosave from bevore it got stuck. :-(
22:43:01  <goddamnit> no
22:43:06  <goddamnit> u have to lay track infront
22:43:23  <fjb> I would like to have a transrapid just go through the middle of the city.
22:43:29  <goddamnit> u can
22:43:35  <goddamnit> jsut take alot of planning
22:43:46  <goddamnit> but why the middle?
22:44:01  <fjb> But what do you do if you can't put a track in front of the tram?
22:44:07  <Amixwoktest> you have to be careful in the cities
22:44:09  <Amixwoktest> hehe
22:44:09  <goddamnit> GG NO RE
22:44:15  <Amixwoktest> dont build dead ends there
22:44:26  <fjb> I have an aiport in the middle of that city.
22:44:27  <Amixwoktest> especially in cities that hates you
22:45:55  *** orudge [~orudge@] has quit [Quit: changing pc]
22:45:59  <fjb> Amixwoktest; there should have been no dead end. It took me three times till there was really a bend. The tracks did cross instead of bend.
22:46:00  <gynterk> buy them
22:46:02  <gynterk> and plant trees
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22:46:31  <gynterk> hmm it isn't possible to demolish tram tracks ?
22:46:50  <Amixwoktest> fjb: the tram construction works like road construction
22:46:55  <Amixwoktest> so i guess thats the thing
22:47:07  <fjb> Not much space left to build trees. And the city still likes me. And I like that city. I hate to destroy big buildings.
22:48:31  <fjb> Amixwoktest: I know. The problem was, that one track was kind of pointing into the next building instead of joining the other track to build a bend.
22:48:46  <Amixwoktest> mhm
22:48:51  <Amixwoktest> same happened to me
22:49:58  <fjb> And it was in the middle of a big city, so just a really dark corner with transparent buildings. I had to use a sreen magnifier to find out what happened.
22:50:05  <Amixwoktest> fjb: thats why i build
22:50:14  <Amixwoktest> build the tram in the middle
22:50:24  <Amixwoktest> so that town builds arround it later on
22:52:39  <fjb> Once there was a small town. Then came a small airport. Then came the railway. Then the town grew. Now the airport is way too small. I build a bigger airport next to the town, but now I have to join the two airports somehow.
22:53:34  <fjb> But it's really fun to see an Airbus descend in the middle of a big city. :-)
22:54:48  <fjb> I wouldn't try it with my concorde...
22:58:17  *** huma [~huma@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:01:25  <Amixwoktest> hehe
23:01:38  *** huma [~huma@] has joined #openttd
23:02:16  <globester> i've got a terminus line, 1 track station but it's bringing in 150k a year atm because it's right in the middle of the city
23:02:28  <globester> can't change it anymore unless i destroy a big part of the city heh
23:03:11  *** AntB [~AntB-UK@] has joined #openttd
23:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2014.%20Mar%201926.png <- my tram
23:03:31  *** Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:03:33  <gynterk> is it possible to see chat history/log ?
23:03:49  <fjb> Soma as my airport. I enhanced it to a commuter airport. Bur I can't make it bidgger. That's why I thought about the Transrapid.
23:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause>,%206.%20Jan%201924.png <- earlier version
23:04:37  *** prakti [] has quit [Quit: Quitting .... Hackedi...hackedi...weg.]
23:05:10  <fjb> Nice place for a station.
23:05:34  <gynterk> anyone ?
23:05:40  <gynterk> chatlog, somewhere ?
23:05:58  <SmatZ> !log
23:06:01  <SmatZ> hmm
23:06:04  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
23:06:04  <Eddi|zuHause> !logs
23:06:21  <gynterk> nono
23:06:25  <gynterk> i mean in-game :D
23:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the console has some kind of log
23:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but it probably does not go very far
23:06:50  <gynterk> ah
23:06:51  <gynterk> thanks
23:06:56  <gynterk> didn't know there was console
23:07:04  <gynterk> is*
23:08:25  *** globester [~PP@] has quit []
23:09:13  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
23:09:22  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png <- this is a much nicer station ;)
23:10:00  *** nickname [] has joined #openttd
23:10:10  <nickname> my setting is set to US English, but it says tonnes instead of tons
23:10:13  <nickname> is there something wrong?
23:10:19  <Brianetta> no
23:10:35  <Brianetta> A ton is imperial, a tonne metric
23:10:40  <Brianetta> Nothing to do with country
23:10:47  <nickname> mmm
23:10:52  <nickname> but i've never heard tonne
23:11:02  <Brianetta> It's 1000kg
23:11:11  <nickname> weird
23:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> nickname: just also change to imperial settings
23:11:26  <Brianetta> Not as weird as pounds etc
23:11:44  <nickname> Eddi|zuHause: it is set to imperial
23:11:46  <ln-> did you ever hear of kg?
23:11:48  <ln-> d
23:11:52  <ln-> -d
23:11:55  <Eddi|zuHause> then you are screwed :p
23:12:02  <nickname> that just seems to effect mph/kph
23:12:12  <nickname> yes i've heard of kg
23:12:17  *** David_McMahon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:12:21  <Brianetta> Does it use HP or KW for power?
23:12:47  <nickname> looks like imperial/metric uses hp and SI uses KW
23:13:10  <nickname> interseting... if it put it on SI then it says 25,000 kg instead of tonnes
23:13:29  <Brianetta> That's because a tonne isn't an SI unit
23:13:29  <Brianetta> The kilogramme is
23:13:59  <gynterk> i like si...
23:14:12  <nickname> but if tonne is metric and ton is imperial, why doesnt it say ton when i set to imperial
23:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i just don't like giving speeds in m/s
23:14:21  <Brianetta> nickname: File that as a bug
23:14:35  <Brianetta> It should give power in KW in metric mode, too
23:14:35  <nickname> ah
23:14:36  <nickname> ok
23:14:43  <gynterk> Eddi|zuHause: i can calculate fast :P
23:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> gynterk: i can'T
23:15:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i have studied too much maths for that :p
23:15:23  <gynterk> :D
23:15:27  <ln-> Brianetta: kW
23:15:36  <Brianetta> ln-: You knew what I meant
23:16:45  <ln-> Brianetta: you can pro gue wha i mea if i onl wri 3 fir let, but is tha goo the?
23:17:01  <Brianetta> you what?
23:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ln-: that does not work well in german :p
23:17:35  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause: tat? sch.
23:18:33  * glx understood what ln- said :)
23:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> vor has du pro mit zus wör.
23:19:01  <glx> but I needed to read it at least 3 times
23:19:03  <Eddi|zuHause> ans wer deu wör gru wes lÀn als eng wör
23:20:01  <Brianetta> Helen has enrolled on a German beginners course.
23:20:10  <ln-> who is Hel?
23:20:13  <Brianetta> We're planning to go to Leipzig for Wave next year.
23:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Leipzig is right around the corner from here
23:20:53  <Brianetta> Cool.  Where is ,here'?
23:21:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i live near Halle (Saale)
23:21:41  <fjb> I have been in Halle last winter.
23:22:57  <Brianetta> You have a mini version of the cathedral in Köln (:
23:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, that is two churches who merged
23:23:34  <Brianetta> Physically?
23:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause> basically they removed the second church, except from the towers, and then extended the other one to those towers
23:24:33  <Brianetta> wow
23:24:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why it has 4 towers
23:24:59  <Brianetta> and a cathedral, two castles...
23:25:04  <Brianetta> That place rocks
23:25:21  <Eddi|zuHause> together with the "red tower" in the middle of the market place, it creates the characteristic "5 towers" of halle
23:25:32  <Phazorx> imperial should also have barrels insetad of liters for liquids
23:26:08  <Eddi|zuHause> also, halle is the birthplace of Georg Friedrich HÀndel
23:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause> famous composer
23:26:37  <Brianetta> Fast composer
23:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> most famous pieces are the fireworks music, the water music, and the messiah
23:27:27  <Brianetta> although he wrote that in London
23:27:40  <Brianetta> he did the whole work in about a fortnight
23:27:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, he worked there most of the time
23:28:09  <Eddi|zuHause> there are "HÀndelfestspiele" every year
23:29:08  <Brianetta> ugh
23:29:12  <Brianetta> I never liked him that much
23:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to ;)
23:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> we have other stuff, too
23:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause> like a beatles museum
23:29:45  <Brianetta> Shopping till 11!
23:30:05  <Brianetta> That's on Friday
23:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, btw. the church with the 4 towers is not the cathedral
23:30:22  <Brianetta> I know
23:30:26  <Brianetta> the cathedral has no towers
23:30:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that is correct ;)
23:31:02  <Brianetta>
23:31:10  <Brianetta> live webcam of the Marktplatz
23:31:25  <Brianetta> The Red Tower is hidden in a box )-:
23:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, they are working on it right now
23:32:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i live about 15km in the direction of that camera
23:34:08  <gynterk> is it allowed that Owen's TTS is provading links to download TTD data ?
23:34:32  <Eddi|zuHause> are you complaining?
23:34:46  <orudge> well
23:34:52  <orudge> it's not strictly speaking legal, no.
23:35:01  <orudge> but effectively, the powers that be don't seem to care
23:35:10  <orudge> and I was fed up of receiving e-mails asking where to download TTD :P
23:35:52  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc i got mine from ttdlxhq
23:37:56  <ln-> i bought a copy of TTD through recently.
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23:38:41  <fjb> They still sell it?
23:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i bought TT when it came out
23:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and the world editor later
23:39:38  <fjb> I didn't know about TT or TTD till a few days ago.
23:40:31  <gynterk> ..
23:40:37  <gynterk> have played it since kid
23:40:52  <Brianetta> It hasn't been around since I was a kid )-:
23:41:08  <Brianetta> I was all adultified and growed up when it came out
23:41:29  <gynterk> who holds copyright over TT(D) ?
23:41:33  <ln-> i first found TT on a pirate CD bought from Tallinn.
23:41:35  <Brianetta> Nobody is certain
23:41:58  <Brianetta> If there was any certainty, there would be fewer problems getting the legalities sorted out
23:42:06  <fjb> Atari holds the copyright.
23:42:10  <gynterk> ln-: From Kadaka market :D ?
23:42:33  <ln-> gynterk: mustamÀe
23:42:39  <orudge> do they, though, fjb, or do they just hold the marketing rights? The About window claims Chris Sawyer owns the copyright...
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23:44:51  <gynterk> ah its like it was with Build engine
23:45:14  <fjb> Did Chris Sawyer say anything about OpenTTD yet?
23:45:30  <ln-> indirectly
23:45:41  <fjb> What did he say?
23:47:58  <Brianetta> Well, he's not going to update our about boxes if he sells his copyright
23:48:40  <orudge> We've had these discussions many times before, fjb ;) We should archive them somewhere, perhaps
23:48:44  <orudge> apart from in the !logs
23:48:45  <orudge> but anyway
23:48:50  <orudge> Chris Sawyer hasn't said anything as such
23:48:59  <orudge> but somebody close to him says he apparently isn't much of an OpenTTD fan
23:49:27  <glx> nor a TTDP fan
23:49:35  <orudge> Indeed not
23:50:00  <gynterk> does he even like the original game?
23:50:46  <fjb> I guess he lieks it. He wrote it. :-)
23:50:46  <ln-> sure
23:51:30  <orudge> He doesn't like people changing his "vision"
23:51:41  <orudge> TTD was meant to be the way it was meant to be, warts and all, he says
23:52:07  <orudge> practically speaking though, there's not that much he can do about TTDPatch, which is technically legal, and OpenTTD, which, well, is debatable
23:52:29  <orudge> it's not really worth his time or trouble to mount legal action
23:52:36  <orudge> he's currently in the middle of legal action against Atari anyway
23:53:06  <glx> why?
23:53:29  <fjb> It would be a big step if OpenTTD didn't need the original files anymore.
23:53:46  <Belugas> we might one day
23:53:49  <orudge> why is he suing Atari, glx?
23:53:51  <orudge> you mean?
23:53:54  <glx> yes
23:54:17  <orudge>,1000000308,39236481,00.htm
23:54:33  <orudge> too
23:54:37  <ln-> he's scottish?
23:54:40  <fjb> OpenTTD goes far beyond of what TTD does. And it looks like there is not that much of the reverse engeneered code anymore.
23:54:52  <Brianetta> fjb: That doesn't matter a jot.
23:54:57  <Brianetta> It's a derrived work.
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23:55:20  <Brianetta> Each revision is a derivative of the one before, right back to a decompilation event.
23:55:22  <orudge> ln-: Yes
23:55:30  <orudge> He lives about an hour away from where I am right now
23:55:31  <Belugas> and there are a lot of lines untouched from initial release, be sure of that
23:55:41  <orudge> I could pop over and offer him a drink ;)
23:55:49  <ln-> you should do that
23:56:14  <ln-> hmmm, being scottish explains the buildings from glasgow.
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23:56:56  <Phazorx> orudge: you should do that
23:57:19  <Phazorx> and i tihnk the fact that openttd existance prolongs life of his project - he should be happy about
23:57:27  <gynterk> yeah
23:57:38  <gynterk> and convince him to open-source all TTD data
23:57:45  <orudge> Haha, not going to happen, alas
23:57:53  <orudge> Chris has his own way of doing things, it seems
23:57:54  <orudge> and now
23:57:55  <orudge> I'm off to bed
23:58:01  <Brianetta> (boing)
23:58:03  <gynterk> ok
23:58:09  <gynterk> I'm off to bed too
23:58:10  <gynterk> night
23:58:12  <Belugas> night orudge
23:58:18  <ln-> knight orudge
23:58:38  <orudge> Night knight gnight fight!
23:58:39  <orudge> etc
23:59:07  <ln-> but seriously, it's not a good idea to try to "convince" someone earning a living from games to open-source them

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