Log for #openttd on 8th October 2007:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't see your problem...
00:00:26  <DaleStan> Well, it's not there for the machine check. It's just an 01 or an 00 there. But failing to change both simultaneously is not a solution.
00:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if the textual representation is misspelled, don't change anything
00:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> let the user handle that
00:01:14  <huma> is it a bug or wip?
00:01:34  <Eddi|zuHause> huma: different airports appear at different times
00:01:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that's how it works
00:01:43  <DaleStan> Yes it is. The decode must produce something that will encode functionally identical. Changing text strings is not permissible.
00:02:44  <Eddi|zuHause> DaleStan: yes, that's why i said keep it. maybe give a warning, so the user can notice it
00:02:50  <huma> Eddi|zuHause: i can build a heliport, but not a helodepot to actually buy a heli. it doesn't make sense.
00:02:58  <glx> huma: helidepot available in 1976
00:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> huma: you can buy helicopters at airports
00:03:06  <DaleStan> Then buy the heli at an airport.
00:03:14  <huma> ah..
00:03:18  <huma> ok
00:03:20  <huma> thanks
00:04:22  <DaleStan> And if the coder chooses to use !, >, <, or some other operator?
00:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that is nothing i understand...
00:05:52  *** Greyscale [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> this does not need to be foolproof... if you don't understand the input, bail out...
00:08:20  <DaleStan> There are thirteen tests for action 7. All have a different byte representation. At least 6 of them can used for determining whether the palette is DOS or Windows. Which one should be generated automagically, and what should be done when a different one is encountered? Or when the coder does any of several hundred other things of varying obscurity?
00:08:37  *** Piet [] has joined #openttd
00:09:31  <DaleStan> NFO is way worse than Perl when it comes to there's-more-than-one-way-to-do-it.
00:10:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, just let me restate my opinion:
00:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> 1) introduce some kind of preprocessor directive
00:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause> 2) replace that with exactly one way of determining DOS or Windows palette
00:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause> 3) upon decompiling, only check for that exact one way
00:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> 4) if you do not find it, give a warning
00:11:47  <DaleStan> And let my restate the state of the world: I'm not doing it. If you produce a patch for GRFCodec (And, if that breaks NFORenum, a patch for NFORenum too) then I'll consider committing them.
00:12:10  <DaleStan> 4) What if the GRF does not need different forms for DOS and Windows?
00:12:22  <glx> like action F for example
00:12:29  <DaleStan> There are such GRFs. Town names and translations especially.
00:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause> still warn, and let the user decide that
00:13:06  <Eddi|zuHause> OR find a way to detect that no palette information is needed
00:13:21  <Eddi|zuHause> OR introduce a "don't care" flag
00:13:42  <DaleStan> Which is really quite easy. IF there are no real sprites, no palette information is required.
00:14:30  <SteamWilly> does anyone use "extended cargo scheme"? - and if: do i need a special trainset to get the new goods transported? some are available for transport but not all
00:14:52  <SteamWilly> only the opel-truck seems to transport anthing
00:15:32  <toresbe> the opel-truck? A truck for Opel cars? Wow, that's a bit specific, isn't it?
00:15:38  <SteamWilly> or depends iton the date?
00:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe the ECS grfs are quite new, so you would need similarly new grf sets
00:16:41  <SteamWilly> no . i mean the truck can cary it but not thr railway
00:16:44  <Sacro> What does "descarger" men?
00:17:32  <glx> SteamWilly: LV4 trucks ?
00:18:02  <SteamWilly> sorry: LV4?
00:18:32  <glx> Long road vehicles v4
00:18:42  <glx> from the same place as ECS
00:20:00  <SteamWilly> oh .. sems to be v3
00:20:04  <Sacro> are they the nsfw ones?
00:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see MB doing a release of DBSet 0.9 any time soon...
00:20:26  <huma> damn, these "goods" are so unstable. one day station accepts it, the other it doesn't.
00:20:47  <Eddi|zuHause> get a bigger town...
00:21:12  <huma> it actually has a subsidy for goods
00:21:13  <SteamWilly> i can only find "Long road vehicles. Version 3 Ÿ"
00:21:49  <SteamWilly> ah! got it
00:22:11  <SteamWilly> bad link on this site directed me to olddownloads ..
00:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> question, in there is a signal in the middle of the station, does that really work in TTDPatch?
00:23:40  *** MarkSlap [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:23:52  <DaleStan> Yes. Only as always-red or always-green, but they work.
00:24:13  <toresbe> DaleStan: ...huh?
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00:24:58  <DaleStan> The tile those signals are on is coded to be impassible.
00:25:15  <DaleStan> Hence, the signals function as if they are always red.
00:25:17  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so it's not real
00:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. you cannot force a train through it
00:25:49  <DaleStan> Not without rebuilding the tile to something that is passable.
00:26:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i understand now...
00:29:46  <SteamWilly> glx: ok .. i installed LV4 .. but as expected it has no affect on the ability to refit the rail-wagons -> still no way to transport sand with trains
00:30:40  <glx> <SteamWilly> no . i mean the truck can cary it but not thr railway <-- well I asked if trucks were LV4 trucks ;)
00:32:06  <SteamWilly> ok :)
00:33:04  <Ammller> hmm, maybe the serbian train set has better ECS support?
00:33:07  <SteamWilly> now i know the answer to my question and additionally am aware of new LV4 beeing there :)
00:33:40  <SteamWilly> does serbian train set go with dbsetxl?
00:33:55  <SteamWilly> or have i to decide?
00:34:11  <glx> dbsetxl is a full set so you can't mix it with another
00:34:38  <SteamWilly> ok
00:35:10  <SteamWilly> i'll give the serbian set a try
00:35:11  <Ammller> dbsetxl can't ECS, you need to wait for 0.9
00:35:18  <SteamWilly> ah ok
00:35:50  <SteamWilly> dbstxl does at least transport sulphur
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00:36:02  <Ammller> but MB seems to be more motivated since ottd has newindustries support...
00:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammller: where do you get that?
00:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause> my impression of MB is of a rather "i don't care about open" opinion
00:37:48  <Ammller> hmm, for
00:37:57  <SmatZ> good night
00:37:57  <Ammller> yes, he don't care
00:38:00  *** SmatZ [] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
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00:38:30  <Ammller> but since newindustries is in ottd, there are more guys asking him about it...
00:38:56  <Ammller> and he likes to have a solution for using his set...
00:40:22  <Ammller> Eddi|zuHause:
00:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> "Mit v0.82 im Prinzip alle ECS-Vektoren von George. Es gibt (auch bei ihm auf der Seite) eine Zusatz .grf fÌrŽs DB Set (namens "ECS vehicles" o.s.À.) die erlaubt alle Wagen auf ECS-GÌter umzurÌsten, allerdings ohne passende Frachtgrafiken"
00:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause> probably something for SteamWilly
00:45:48  <Ammller> its seems to be very ugly
00:46:06  <Ammller> read forward...
00:46:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i never tried that stuff...
00:46:57  <Ammller> me too, I just looking for a good Alpine GRF
00:47:03  <Ammller> combination
00:47:33  <Ammller> Eddi|zuHause: you tried Alpine.GRF, with which Cargo Sets?
00:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> no extras, just alpine and dbset
00:48:18  <Ammller> but alpine self has no new cargo, has it?
00:49:50  <oamip2>
00:49:55  <oamip2> thats ECS ;)
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00:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammller: not technically new, but nonnative to the arctic climate
00:51:04  *** oamip2 is now known as Amixosx
00:51:35  <Ammller> yeah, I will use it with NewCargo from MB then...
00:51:50  <Ammller> Beer and Fish...
00:54:28  <Amixosx> and cherry coke
00:56:37  <SteamWilly> thx Eddi|zuHause for the hint on dbsetxl
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01:01:14  <Ammller> SteamWilly: serbian set not working?
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01:02:38  <SteamWilly> i don't have allready testet it - i was afk
01:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> what exactly was that?!
01:03:00  <Brianetta> Can somebody test my bittorrent tracker?
01:03:04  <Brianetta>
01:03:10  <Brianetta> You should get my grf pack
01:03:35  <SteamWilly> sorry no torrent client installed here
01:04:49  <SteamWilly> Eddi|zuHause2: i could not find any download regarding ""ECS vehicles" o.s.À.) die erlaubt alle Wagen auf ECS-GÌter umzurÌsten"
01:04:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> appears to work...
01:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> SteamWilly: best you read that thread
01:05:34  <SteamWilly> yes ;)
01:08:00  <Ammller> SteamWilly: last ECS GRF
01:08:12  <Ammller> Brianetta: works...
01:08:26  <Brianetta> Ammller: Cool.  I must have a local issue then.
01:10:26  <Sacro>
01:11:15  <SteamWilly> Ammller: i allrady have the latest ECS grf from this source
01:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> i am connected to 1 seeder from switzerland and one leecher from uk
01:11:27  * Sacro whistles
01:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> but it says it has 4 seeders
01:11:39  <SteamWilly> Eddi|zuHause2: this thread does not offer a solution for me
01:11:50  <Sacro> i'm connected to one peer in the USofA
01:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> SteamWilly: no, but a big warning not to use that grf
01:12:03  <Sacro> using KTorrent 2.2dev
01:12:16  <SteamWilly> yes @ eddi
01:12:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> your location detection is wrong
01:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> as i am clearly not in the USA
01:13:00  <Ammller> He is "zuHause"
01:13:16  <Sacro>
01:13:27  <Sacro> which does cross reference with Eddi|zuHause2
01:13:30  <Sacro> but not with the flag
01:13:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, µTorrent probably only looks at the top level domain
01:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> (.net)
01:14:11  <Sacro> probably
01:14:22  <Brianetta>
01:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> is 1.7.5 the newest?
01:14:42  <Sacro> yeah
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01:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> ammler probably has more upload capacity than i have download capacity :p
01:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> "Leecher: 0 (429496294)" <- that does not sound too great
01:20:53  <Sacro> ?
01:22:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> unsigned overflow...
01:23:46  <Ammller> I have a sharing rate of 1.99 :)
01:23:54  <Rafagd> overflow is teh sux0r =(
01:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have like 0.17 :p
01:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> download time: 00:09:24 upload time: 00:05:13
01:26:09  *** Rafagd [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> average upload speed: 1.3KB/s
01:28:24  <SteamWilly> serbian train set look cool. but what's the meaning of a "?" aside an engine?
01:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> probably a missing character glyph
01:31:12  <SteamWilly> no - not in the text
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01:31:19  * SteamWilly makes a screenshot
01:31:52  <SteamWilly>
01:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a missing sprite in any case
01:33:18  <SteamWilly> ah ok
01:35:55  <SteamWilly> thx for your help... i'll go to bed now...
01:36:03  <SteamWilly> probably ... ;)
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02:04:03  <ln->
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05:18:13  <SquireJames> hello all
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09:27:44  <TrueBrain> morning
09:27:55  <boekabart> hi
09:28:43  <Amixosx> morning
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09:41:30  <Rubidium> good moaning
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09:45:18  <TrueBrain> oh no, not this guy again
09:45:30  <TrueBrain> does anyone know who this Rubidium is? I find him rather annoying
09:47:28  <TheMask96> all dutch people are annoying ;)
09:47:33  <TrueBrain> very true
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10:05:19  <TrueBrain> any FON user here? :p
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10:30:41  * Purno pokes boekabart
10:31:02  * TrueBrain slaps Purno: don't poke, it is rude
10:31:16  * Purno slaps boekabart
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10:31:33  <TrueBrain> @kick Purno now stop doing that
10:31:33  *** Purno was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [now stop doing that]
10:31:34  <TrueBrain> grrr
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10:31:56  <Purno> wtf?
10:32:09  <TrueBrain> yeah, that is what you get :p
10:32:11  <Purno> what the hell is wrong with poking someone?
10:32:26  <TrueBrain> it is rude! And then you switch to slapping? I don't like SM :(
10:32:29  <TrueBrain> (not in this channel anyway :p)
10:32:36  <Purno> you were the first one slapping
10:32:46  <TrueBrain> DOH!
10:32:51  <boekabart> Purno: yeah yeah
10:32:53  <TrueBrain> @kick TrueBrain now stop doing that
10:32:53  *** TrueBrain was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [now stop doing that]
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10:33:16  <TrueBrain> so, now I am back on my kick quota for today :) Sorry Purno, I just dislike dutch people :p
10:34:21  <Purno> I hope your dutch too, otherwise it'd be rather discrimating
10:34:34  <boekabart> fortunately he is. Low self esteem...
10:34:36  <TrueBrain> :)
10:34:41  <TrueBrain> very low
10:35:24  * TrueBrain hugs Purno
10:35:26  <TrueBrain> better? :)
10:35:34  * Purno huggles TrueBrain
10:35:37  <TrueBrain> :$
10:35:43  <TrueBrain> @kick TrueBrain NO MSN ICONS!
10:35:43  *** TrueBrain was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [NO MSN ICONS!]
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10:35:55  <TrueBrain> hard to keep up with the rules...
10:36:17  <TrueBrain> I wish HalfLife OrangeBox was there...
10:36:26  <Purno> eh... don't tell me you seriously have those kind of silly rules?
10:36:57  <TrueBrain> no
10:37:04  <TrueBrain> only when it annoys me
10:37:35  <TrueBrain> and yes, MSN Icons really are a true pain in the ass to read on IRC
10:37:45  <TrueBrain> but tha tmostly because nobody understands...
10:39:14  <TrueBrain> lalala, pompiedom
10:40:46  <TrueBrain> hmm, mouse needs new batteries
10:40:47  <TrueBrain> annoying
10:45:04  <TrueBrain> toen onze boekabart een boekje was, was hij aardig om te zien! Nu boekt hij alle boeken, en neust hij bovendien! (don't ask, I am totally bored)
10:46:22  <boekabart> TrueBrain: then read and critize boekje's deepwater patch :)
10:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i figure i really shouldn't ...
10:46:44  <TrueBrain> boekabart: in fact, I was doing just that :p
10:46:59  <boekabart> then you really _are_ bored
10:47:04  <TrueBrain> told you
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10:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, who was the guy with the tunnel patch, and where did he disappear to?
10:47:50  <boekabart> Eddi|zuHause: what tunnel patch do you refer to?
10:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the one with the video
10:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> arbitrary rails in tunnels
10:48:39  <boekabart> never heard of it
10:48:49  <TrueBrain> yeah, I know what you mean
10:48:53  <TrueBrain> the guy publishing a ogg video
10:49:23  <TrueBrain> SmatZ was it
10:49:34  <TrueBrain> boekabart: this:
10:50:00  <Eddi|zuHause> @seen SmatZ
10:50:00  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 12 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <SmatZ> good night
10:50:46  <boekabart> TrueBrain: you even gave him his own directory on your ~ folder..
10:51:06  <TrueBrain> yeah, so I could remember the name :p
10:51:26  <TrueBrain> I might look stupid, but I have my moments :)
10:56:02  * boekabart cannot play divx/xvid at work ;(
10:56:05  <boekabart> :( too
10:56:34  <TrueBrain> boekabart: this:
10:56:36  <TrueBrain> maybe? :p
10:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> rofl :p
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11:02:26  <toresbe> hrm
11:03:37  <toresbe> the tunnel feature realle looks cool
11:03:42  <toresbe> it's not in SVN is it?
11:03:59  <TrueBrain> nope
11:04:05  <TrueBrain> I believe nobody has seen the code
11:04:09  <toresbe> meh. It's a really good idea though
11:15:44  <Ammler> you mean the thing from SmartZ?
11:16:08  <toresbe> I don't know.. :)
11:16:30  <Ammler> or enhanced tunnel?
11:16:59  <toresbe> well, that tunnel thing what makes me can place lights
11:17:21  <Ammler> ah, ok, there is no patch available for that
11:17:32  <toresbe> k :)
11:17:48  <toresbe> Are there any other tunnel improvements out - or in the works?
11:19:02  <Ammler> hmm, not that I know off, peter???? is working on enhanced tunnels, but also no patch availalbe for, as much as I know...
11:19:30  <boekabart> peter???? as in peter1138?
11:20:03  <Ammler> yes, he does, no?
11:20:07  <Ammler>
11:20:40  <boekabart> afaik, he's kind of missing
11:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> what this needs is proper ground sprites
11:21:54  <boekabart> what this needs is a patch that works first :)
11:24:35  <Ammler> boekabart: is there a patch for that already? (a non working one)
11:26:13  <boekabart> yes, ttdpatch :) (no, not that I know of)
11:26:43  <Ammler> yeah, the screen is from there... :)
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13:00:32  <Sacro> rawr
13:00:43  <Phazorx>
13:00:49  <Phazorx> ttrs issue?
13:04:04  <Sacro> or sprite drawer
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13:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> what is "Industry Stations Renewal"?
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13:45:01  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: buggy facelift for industry stations
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13:45:22  <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't recommend it?
13:45:38  <Phazorx> more variety of station tiles (as well as non track ones) but they work normally only with rails, monorail and mlev is a bit buggy
13:45:51  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: i'd say wait till release, sionce curerntly it is beta
13:55:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually use monorail or maglev
14:02:50  <Phazorx> well try it then
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14:08:07  <Phazorx>
14:09:04  <Phazorx>
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14:56:36  <SpComb> hylje: ...and I don't particularly like paster, it's just the web framework that I've used and seems kind of quick to use
14:56:40  <SpComb> pylons, I mean
14:57:00  <hylje> :o
14:57:19  <SpComb> but the load averages on were between 4 and 14 for the past few weeks, and now that I've restarted paster (which was at around 170m of ram, RES), they're down to about 0.10
14:57:27  <hylje> haha
14:57:47  <SpComb> which makes me contemplate if I want to switch MyOTTD to something a bit more lean before its too late
14:58:05  <SpComb> SpBotII's stagnating for somewhat similar reasons...
14:59:07  <hylje> i suppose
14:59:16  <hylje> i didnt manage to get pylons up
14:59:41  <SpComb> writing cgi python apps was very enjoyable <3
15:00:10  <SpComb> there wasn't fifty thousand lines of bloated (but admittedly useful) code between your code and the web server
15:00:27  <hylje> :D
15:02:04  <SpComb> things like routes are really nice features in Pylons that Django doesn't have (at least by default)
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15:05:21  <SpComb> but if pylons is keeping you from looking at MyOTTD, I wouldn't mind looking at alternatives...
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15:05:58  <Csaboka> Hi folks
15:06:00  * SpComb is starting to run into problems with his maths/physics stuff at university though, and needs to give those priority over MyOTTD, though
15:06:12  <hylje> :<
15:06:50  <hylje> i know the feeling
15:07:08  <hylje> i suppose i could work on porting that thing
15:07:31  <TrueBrain> hi Csaboka
15:07:32  <SpComb> the web app isn't particularly complex, most of the real code is in the twisted daemon
15:07:36  <TrueBrain> SpComb: I know that problem...
15:07:47  <Csaboka> I have some problems with the OTTD source code
15:08:00  <TrueBrain> Csaboka: with the source-code, you don't hear thatone every day
15:08:17  <Csaboka> I'm trying to extend the animated tile list from 256 items to a dynamically allocated array
15:08:33  <Csaboka> but I got really lost with the load/save routines
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15:09:05  <TrueBrain> look at other dynamic arrays
15:09:23  <Csaboka> in TTDPatch, you just give it a bunch of bytes and off you go, but OTTD has to do it in a more complicated way
15:09:53  <Csaboka> well, I couldn't find any other array whose size can't be figured out before loading
15:10:15  <TrueBrain> almost all arrays for big things are dynamic
15:10:23  <TrueBrain> best example I guess is either depots or signs
15:11:30  <Csaboka> but those use an array of objects, and that seems to be different from the RIFF format the animation array seems to use
15:11:41  <glx> Rubidium started to do something for animated tiles
15:12:26  <Csaboka> oh, so I guess I'm working in vain, then, he must be more familiar with the code :)
15:12:45  <glx> he have problems with saveload too :)
15:13:31  <Csaboka> in TTDPatch, I would have saved a length prefix, then the TileIndexes, but I don't know if this is the right way for OTTD or not
15:13:57  <Csaboka> or even, how to read a simple uint32 from the savegame
15:14:14  <Phazorx> glx, TrueBrain can you confirm if this is ttrs issue or soemtihng else:
15:14:17  <boekabart> hehe, it was amazingly easy to make the grass-growth patch a lot nicer looking - without consuming extra bits:
15:14:18  <Csaboka> there is SlArray for arrays, but ReadUint32 is static
15:14:22  <Phazorx>
15:14:49  <SpComb> the Java course is trivial, uninteresting and takes a fair amount of work, the Digital Engineering course has a fair amount of familiar stuff, and some new stuff, the Basics of Electrical Engineering has a good lecturer and is somewhat interesting (although there's a lot of maths/physics involved), but maths and physics... lectures start at eight in the morning, the practice sessions suck and I don't like those subjects at all
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15:15:42  <Phazorx> boekabart: is there a way to county used and unused track tiles?
15:15:49  <Phazorx> *count
15:17:49  <Csaboka> I think I'll revert the changes I've made, I could only do the easy part anyway, I guess Rubidium has already done that
15:18:45  <boekabart> Phazorx: there is a way :)
15:18:47  <glx> I can't get his diff :(
15:18:52  <boekabart> but not in the current patch
15:19:10  <Phazorx> boekabart: would be very nice
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15:19:31  <Phazorx> especialy applied to coopers aproach to evaluate performance of network
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15:20:31  <boekabart> Phazorx: well the 'usage' is a byte between 0 and 255
15:20:49  <boekabart> 0 = 'new / just used'
15:21:25  <boekabart> so 'counting' is hard - an average number would be doable but it's exact meaning is tricky, although 'the lower the better' is a good indication :)
15:21:26  <Phazorx> boekabart: days?
15:21:30  <boekabart> no
15:21:35  <boekabart> not linear
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15:22:03  <Phazorx> i mean what does the count represents?
15:22:28  <boekabart> Nothing: over time it in increases, on usage, it decreases
15:22:40  <Phazorx> decreases or restets?
15:22:45  <Phazorx> resets
15:22:53  <boekabart> decreases, the first train doesn't clean everything away
15:23:03  <Phazorx> hmm...
15:23:05  <boekabart> if it would, it would be useless as a 'usage indicator'
15:23:19  <Phazorx> what i meant is actualy that param across all tiles of same company
15:23:36  <boekabart> the way I did it (non-linear), it will stabilize around a certain number indicating the track usage
15:23:46  <boekabart> lower = more efficiently used
15:23:57  <Phazorx> well logarifmic scale would make great sense
15:24:34  <Phazorx> but i really want to know total count of all tacks per type and some number representing percentage used
15:24:45  <boekabart> pls look at patch, I don't know the exact formula by heart, but I did it this way (loga-ish) so that it would settle around a certain value based on the number of trains per 'time'.
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15:24:59  <Phazorx> and for making game more challening - property tax should be proportional to amounf of tracks
15:25:06  <skidd13> hi
15:25:30  <Phazorx> boekabart: i'll check the patch and from sound of it looks like you are on right track
15:25:41  <boekabart> Phazorx: it's definately possible to take the average of the numbers and derive an efficiency number from it - not in % though
15:25:53  <boekabart> ok. gotta go now
15:25:55  <Phazorx> i'm just saying it would be ncie to have more than just visual representation... that data has economical/game menaing as well
15:26:07  <boekabart> i know - it should be added to tile-info ? as wel
15:26:09  <boekabart> well
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15:27:07  <Csaboka> I have to go, bye
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15:35:50  * SpComb rewrites it in PHP
15:36:19  <hylje> ha
15:37:16  <SpComb> or perhaps I should write my own web framework, if I knew the code in and out then I wouldn't have any of these problems
15:37:30  * SpComb is looking at CherryPy
15:38:03  <SpComb>'s templating is ridiculously bad, and I didn't like the weird globals magic either
15:38:32  <SpComb> pylons uses threadlocal globals (imported via "import * from ..."), which are even worse
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16:01:27  <skidd13> @seen Wolf01
16:01:27  <DorpsGek> skidd13: Wolf01 was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 47 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Wolf01> 'night
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16:23:53  <SpComb> hmm, taking a big screenshot gets a little big unrealistic once the map size goes up
16:24:44  <SpComb> 8x8 was reasonably fast, but 10x10 seems to be taking a while
16:25:18  <Rubidium> it's "only" 16 times as big
16:25:46  <SpComb> a nice 219.8MB .png
16:26:31  <SpComb> I'm assuming that there's currently no way to get a minimap out of a dedciated server in .png form?
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16:34:19  <Wolf01> hello
16:34:58  <TrueBrain> Hi :)
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16:36:24  * SpComb ponders feasability of modifying smallmap_gui.c to draw the minimap as a PNG image
16:36:38  <TrueBrain> not impossible
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16:37:43  <SpComb> I'm getting closer and closer to patching openttd for use with MyOTTD
16:37:59  <TrueBrain> do it :)
16:38:57  <SpComb> I probably will, although I'll run lots of risks in terms of stuff breaking with different versions of OpenTTD and not compiling/crashing
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17:12:16  <Ihmemies> youtube links aren't cool? :(
17:14:05  <hylje> yes
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17:33:00  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
17:33:00  <boekabart> !logs
17:36:52  <Wolf01> boekabart, how's going with the water?
17:38:33  <boekabart> Wolf01: Wet, very wet
17:39:04  <Wolf01> do you are in deep water with that patch?
17:39:05  <boekabart> I don't know - I've been getting feedback from the devs
17:39:29  <boekabart> but if it's actually really considered - ask them :)
17:40:52  * boekabart just opened a scanjet2400.. by force
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17:41:07  <Wolf01> hammertime?
17:41:51  <Vaevictus> can the advanced signals be used in an optimized fashion with bidirectional stations? or just with loops?
17:41:51  <boekabart> it might be closeable and working again,, but the glass was dirty on the inside
17:43:28  <Wolf01> dinner time
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17:46:51  <SpComb> oops
17:47:14  * boekabart is quite happy with the result of the cleaning job
17:47:18  <SpComb> looks like a bunch of people tried to create MyOTTD servers, but there were some slight bugs in the add-a-new-server part
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18:07:08  <mcbane> is there a way to log activity of network games if i host one?
18:07:18  <TrueBrain> tcpdump
18:07:48  <mcbane> because i dunny why but with ECS i getting a huge desync rate.
18:08:00  <TrueBrain> ah, that kind :p
18:08:02  <TrueBrain> what is ECS?
18:08:17  <mcbane> extended cargo set
18:08:19  <mcbane> grf
18:08:21  <TrueBrain> ah
18:08:23  <boekabart> mcbane: large map?
18:08:28  <mcbane> 1kx1k
18:08:46  <TrueBrain> there are ways to debug it, but you need a dev to help you out I guess :)
18:09:03  <boekabart> right.. probably what ah, the ttdpatch newindustries developer suggests in the forum
18:09:09  <boekabart> not enough animated tile slots
18:09:17  <TrueBrain> scx
18:09:24  <TrueBrain> shouldnt' desync ;)
18:09:29  <Rubidium> boekabart: that shouldn't cause desyncs
18:09:41  <boekabart> well depends how the tile slots are being filled, right?
18:10:01  <Rubidium> in the same manner in each client, or so it should be
18:10:02  <boekabart> but ok, if it's not 'screen position related', it shouldn't
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18:10:51  <DaleStan> Apparently, ECS uses its animation state for storing other state. Could the extra animated tiles be getting undefined info for their animation state?
18:11:15  <TrueBrain> a good grf should check the flag if there are more-animations, not? :p
18:11:28  <Rubidium> DaleStan: undefined maybe, but the same on all clients/servers
18:11:48  <DaleStan> Nope. No way to know the moreanimation setting, and even if there were, there's no way to know if it's large enough.
18:12:05  <TrueBrain> 	                   |                                        (0 << 0x1C)  // moreanimations
18:12:08  <TrueBrain> then what is that?
18:12:14  <DaleStan> Unless it's set to at least $TILES_ON_MAP.
18:12:57  <DaleStan> That just returns on/off. Which could just as easily be moreanimation 256 (no change) or moreanimation 65535 .
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18:16:07  <mcbane> another thing i noticed at creating the random map at bout 50% itis really sol for about 10%...
18:16:49  <DaleStan> (It's also wrong; the switch is "moreanimation", not "moreanimations".)
18:17:16  * SpComb straightened out the MyOTTD code
18:17:16  <DaleStan> mcbane: Could you try again, but in English this time?
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18:17:31  <SpComb> and tested/fixed the Add Server thing for the first time since I first wrote it
18:18:00  <mcbane> dale: when creating a random map the progress is shown in %
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18:18:05  <mcbane> right?
18:18:26  <DaleStan> Anyone here can be assumed to know that.
18:18:41  <Bjarni> I think it's the sol part that we don't get
18:19:12  <DerFraggy> hi guys, is there a specific irc-channel for ttd-internetgames?
18:19:13  <mcbane> ok at creating industries when it reaches 50% its like something slowing the creating of industries dramatically..
18:19:15  <DaleStan> "bout" isn't valid in that context either.
18:19:30  <mcbane> missed an a..
18:20:11  <Bjarni> mcbane: do you mean that when it's at 50%, it stalls for a moment?
18:20:17  <mcbane> yea
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18:20:56  <Bjarni> this would have been a whole lot easier if you just said so from the beginning
18:21:01  <Bjarni> and said it in English as well
18:21:16  <Bjarni> hi Brianetta
18:21:20  <Brianetta> re
18:21:31  <Bjarni> wb Brianetta
18:21:33  <Bjarni> :)
18:21:39  <Brianetta> re (:
18:23:19  <Bjarni> what's the idea about spam that don't sell anything or contains any links at all? :s
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18:23:48  <Bjarni> I just got one saying "bigger is better" and that's it. No product name or links or anything
18:24:16  <hylje> it's marketing
18:25:04  <Bjarni> for what?
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18:25:21  <Bjarni> bigger HDs?
18:25:26  <Bjarni> bigger TVs?
18:25:29  <Bjarni> bigger cars?
18:25:36  <boekabart> Bjarni: just say the word
18:25:44  <Bjarni> word
18:25:48  <Bjarni> err
18:25:49  <boekabart> bigger words!
18:25:51  <Bjarni> the word
18:25:55  <Bjarni> THE WORD
18:26:02  * boekabart pats Bjarni, he's a good boy :)
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18:27:16  <Bjarni> you know, it could be one of those unit enlargement thingies, but they usually tell you how to give them money for their worthless pills
18:28:51  <boekabart> there we have it, bigger thingies
18:29:06  <Bjarni> but I don't need that
18:29:26  <boekabart> she says that just to be nice
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18:29:48  <Bjarni> that was low
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18:29:57  <Bjarni> even lower than the belt area
18:30:04  <boekabart> exactly there, in fact.
18:30:15  <boekabart> sorry, that was indeed childish
18:30:39  <boekabart> i was bored waiting for the stupid scanner
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18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r11227 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-10-08 20:45:04
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 3 fixed, 236 changed by TrueTenacity (239)
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 5 fixed by knovak (5)
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
18:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovak - 2 fixed by lengyel (2)
18:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 2 fixed by eusebio (2)
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19:02:41  <Greyscale> Stupid internet
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19:04:22  <SmatZ> hello
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19:08:48  <glx>  <mcbane> ok at creating industries when it reaches 50% its like something slowing the creating of industries dramatically.. <-- probably because it can't place some industries and retries a lot
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19:10:57  <mcbane> if you use a 1k x 1k map there is a lot space with setting industries on low.
19:11:49  <glx> but some industries want a certain slope, or distance too water, or ...
19:11:56  <glx> *to
19:27:21  <mcbane> hmm
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19:56:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11228 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: implement the "moreanimation" feature of TTDP, so we can properly support newindustries.
19:59:34  <Ihmemies> implement a GUI which is usable at 2560x1600
19:59:39  <Ihmemies> and some kind of nicer scaling..... :P
20:00:58  <Rubidium> can you be more vague that that?
20:02:34  <Rubidium> *than that
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20:03:50  <Ihmemies> what's not clear then?
20:03:59  <Ihmemies>
20:04:29  <Ihmemies>
20:04:42  <Ihmemies> the gfx get absolutely too tiny at higher res
20:05:32  <Rubidium> well... all problems are solved when you change the resolution to 1280x800 I guess
20:06:01  <SmatZ> I use 1600x1200 on 21" CRT, and everything is nice
20:06:36  <SmatZ> if you use 2560x1600 on monitor <=21", then everything is very small, yes...
20:06:49  <Rubidium> even on my 1920x1200 at 15-ish" it's legible
20:06:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11229 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#1307]: one could sell vehicles that were crashed in a depot, which would still yield money.
20:07:18  <Ihmemies> you can probably spot a flea flying half a kilometer away on a rainy autumn night too
20:07:19  <De_Ghost> what's wrong with that
20:07:21  <De_Ghost> it's in depot
20:07:22  <De_Ghost> lol
20:07:49  <Rubidium> yeah, but scrap metal is not worth a penny
20:08:02  <De_Ghost> yes it is
20:08:13  <De_Ghost> why you think people recycle aluminum
20:08:28  <Rubidium> De_Ghost: relatively to the price of the vehicle...
20:08:41  <SmatZ> Rubidium: the actual patch for selling flooded vehicles was in
20:08:44  <De_Ghost> i mean it's at least worth 200 bux
20:08:45  <De_Ghost> lol
20:10:04  <Rubidium> SmatZ: oh
20:10:21  * Rubidium hates bugs that aren't really that dependant on eachother
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20:16:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11230 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1228]: one could construct trains out of crashed wagons and engines. Based on a patch by SmatZ.
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20:42:12  <huma> hi
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20:42:27  <huma> eh.. still no youtube goodies
20:42:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11231 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1311] (r11128): Someone misplaced a "static". This results in wrong bounding boxes for tunnels in X direction. Patch by frosch.
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20:55:43  <dihedral> Rubidium: could it be that the vast amount of desyns you see lately are from moving the network_client.tmp file to My Documents?
20:56:05  <glx> why?
20:56:44  <dihedral> because if you are connected to 2 games...? :-)
20:56:52  <dihedral> you get the picture
20:57:06  <dihedral> having 2 separate folders is not enough anymore
20:57:14  <Rubidium> dihedral: only if you join them at the same time
20:58:03  <dihedral> just a thought
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20:58:47  <dihedral> so it does not keep the file pointer open?
20:59:03  <Rubidium> only when downloading the game and loading the game
20:59:31  <dihedral> why then not download directly into memory?
20:59:44  <glx> the save should be in a place relative to openttd.cfg
20:59:44  <dihedral> or would that make things more complicated
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21:00:11  <dihedral> why not relative to the executable?
21:00:44  <Rubidium> dihedral: that would require a total rewrite of the saveload code
21:00:50  <dihedral> k
21:01:12  <dihedral> relative to executable or download to mem?
21:01:35  <glx> you can use 1 exe for many servers
21:01:38  <Rubidium> the latter, though the former won't work on read-only install directories
21:01:49  *** Mark [~Mark@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:02:00  <Rubidium> such as installed-by-admin-and-played-by-normal-user on Windows
21:02:21  <dihedral> i was just wondering because XeryusTC desynced yesterday a lot
21:02:34  <dihedral> i desynced on the day before a lot
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21:03:15  <dihedral> right after joining
21:03:18  <XeryusTC> heh
21:03:29  <XeryusTC> my desyncs were caused by building certain stations
21:03:37  <glx> yours?
21:03:41  <XeryusTC> yes
21:03:43  <XeryusTC> from yesterday
21:03:57  <dihedral> but you were the only one desyncing
21:03:58  <XeryusTC> i desynced everytime i build stations from a certain class
21:04:02  <XeryusTC> i know
21:04:02  <dihedral> and that like 10x in a row
21:04:10  <dihedral> all right after joining
21:04:42  <dihedral> i was on my nightly game the other day and 1 guy got a connection lost and 2 others got a desync... at the same time
21:06:17  <dihedral> so a desync is when the seed differes right?
21:06:19  <Bjarni> sounds like a desync bug
21:06:45  <dihedral> which happens when the client map is different from that of the server, right?
21:06:48  <Bjarni> like something happened at the server and not at any of the clients
21:06:59  <Bjarni> yeah
21:07:09  <Bjarni> and the server map is presumed to be correct
21:07:13  <dihedral> Bjarni: when the that happend i stayed connected....
21:07:39  <Bjarni> so all clients having a different map (or vehicle count/location) will desync
21:07:55  <dihedral> then why did i not...?
21:07:58  <Bjarni> <dihedral> Bjarni: when the that happend i stayed connected.... <-- odd
21:08:04  <Bjarni> really odd
21:08:18  <dihedral> i had been desyncing all the time before that
21:08:21  <Bjarni> try to figure out how to reproduce this
21:08:29  <dihedral> then was connected for like 10 mins and the other 3 guys flew out
21:08:39  <dihedral> Bjarni: i wish i could
21:08:53  <Bjarni> you use a little endian CPU, right?
21:09:06  <dihedral> AMD yes
21:09:28  <Bjarni> I don't care for brand, only if it could be caused by different endianess
21:09:29  <dihedral> for both, server & workstation
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21:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: are you aware that your tracker has a overflow issue with the client count?
21:11:12  <Bjarni> I wish I could say something clever regarding what could have caused this desync and a plan on fixing it, but right now I can't think of anything :(
21:12:10  <dihedral> Bjarni: in theory, if it was the endianness, i should be able to play on my PPC mac and never desync...
21:12:27  <Bjarni> well
21:12:36  <Bjarni> usually it's the PPCs that desyncs
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21:12:59  <dihedral> IIRC they support some kind of switching between the both
21:13:00  <Bjarni> but yes, it could be interesting to test it on PPC
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21:13:16  <dihedral> well - i'll be doing that tomorrow evening then :-)
21:13:17  <Bjarni> I know how PPC works ;)
21:13:18  <TrueBrain> dihedral / XeryusTC: I missed like 90% of the story, but do I get it right that XeryusTC desynced (as the only person) when he tried to build something?
21:13:22  <TrueBrain> where the rest didn't desync?
21:13:33  <Bjarni> and I know that PPC OpenTTD for OSX is big endian
21:13:39  <dihedral> TrueBrain: yes
21:13:49  <TrueBrain> dihedral: and did the building he was trying to build really built on your side?
21:13:55  <dihedral> Bjarni: well i did not know :-D
21:14:13  <dihedral> TrueBrain: i have no idea what he was building
21:14:19  <Bjarni> I made the port. I should know
21:14:27  <dihedral> TrueBrain: but that would let XeryusTC have desynced ONCE, and not 10x
21:14:36  <dihedral> Bjarni: :-)
21:14:53  <TrueBrain> so the case is simple: either the DoCommand issued a Random() outside the DC_EXEC block, or the server gave a CMD_ERROR where the client of XeryusTC said it was okay
21:15:08  <TrueBrain> my bet is on the first case ;)
21:15:09  <Bjarni> I also know that on G3 and G4, the game will use an opcode to read an int in reversed byte order, hence switching endianess in hardware
21:15:15  <dihedral> TrueBrain: but XeryusTC desynced like 10x right after connecting again
21:15:24  <TrueBrain> dihedral: after building the station again, right?
21:15:26  <XeryusTC> not right after comming in
21:15:27  <dihedral> like within a second and 15 i'd say
21:15:39  <XeryusTC> after i build stations from a certain newgrf file
21:15:46  <dihedral> TrueBrain: i dont think he would have had that chance every time
21:15:48  <TrueBrain> so it is really the building that caused the desync
21:15:51  <XeryusTC> the stations were build, but were the default station when i rejoined
21:16:01  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: funny
21:16:13  <TrueBrain> and the grfs of your client are 100% in sync with the server?
21:16:21  <dihedral> TrueBrain: well - i build nothing when it happened on my nightly :-)
21:16:34  <DaleStan> Isn't newgrf sync guaranteed?
21:16:41  <TrueBrain> dihedral: never confuse 2 desyncs
21:16:54  <dihedral> TrueBrain: well now i know :-)
21:16:57  <Bjarni> dihedral: basically PPC OSX and the CPUs it uses are big endian (Apple used PPC 7xx and 9xx). PPC 4xx can switch to a little endian mode, but I don't think 7xx and 9xx can do that
21:17:00  <TrueBrain> dihedral: if XeryusTC said it happened when he build something, it happens because of that. If you desync too, that can be a very different reason ;)
21:17:03  <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: well, i could join the server, so it should be
21:17:20  <Rubidium> DaleStan: not 100%; one could sneak in a different newgrf just after the checks have been done, but before the newgrfs are loaded.
21:17:21  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: should be and are, are 2 different worlds ;)
21:17:37  <TrueBrain> someone could modify the client to give always the right md5
21:17:41  <XeryusTC> but, i deleted the directory and copied exes from another ottd copy and put the correct newgrfs and stuff in there
21:17:44  <XeryusTC> and it worked again
21:17:45  <TrueBrain> and I can think up some other clever things to avoid it :p
21:17:55  <XeryusTC> might also be because i removed static newgrfs in that proces
21:18:13  <XeryusTC> i also had this kind of thing before, but i dont know how to reproduce it
21:18:15  <TrueBrain> so you currently have no way to reproduce?
21:18:34  <TrueBrain> next time, copy your whole map which caused a desync reproducable, before starting to get it to work again ;)
21:18:40  <TrueBrain> that is, if you want to be of any use to us ;) :p
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21:19:15  <dihedral> what if overwriting newgrfs with their newer versions
21:19:15  <XeryusTC> well, i will
21:19:18  <dihedral> while the game is running
21:19:23  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: tnx ;) :)
21:19:34  <XeryusTC> dihedral: doesnt matter if it was running
21:19:43  <TrueBrain> dihedral: in theory the grf-specs are already in the memory
21:19:44  <dihedral> well - it did not matter to my server...
21:19:44  <XeryusTC> even after restarting the game it still happened
21:19:47  <TrueBrain> the sprites aren't though
21:19:58  <dihedral> sorry - it did matter to my server
21:20:47  <dihedral> it was sending md5sums in the info packet that were never resolved to names
21:21:08  <dihedral> or grfid's for that fact - not sure
21:21:47  <dihedral> i extracted the ottdc update pack into the data dir of my server while it was running
21:21:59  <dihedral> and issued a newgame
21:22:06  <dihedral> :-P
21:22:13  * dihedral is bad
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21:22:42  <dihedral> yes - i will admit that i was being lazy :-)
21:23:26  <dihedral> any how - afaik - XeryusTC was not the only guy to have desynct a lot on that game
21:23:48  <dihedral> there were a few desyncs the day before, by i-dont-know-who... :-(
21:24:14  <dihedral> perhaps one could find them in the irc log file :)
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21:27:54  <dihedral> well - night time for me
21:28:01  <dihedral> @monologue
21:28:05  <dihedral> shame :-)
21:28:06  <TrueBrain> night dihedral :)
21:28:22  <mcbane> night dihedral
21:28:32  <SmatZ> Rubidium:
21:28:35  <dihedral> and thanks for answering that question i had :-)
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21:29:07  <SmatZ> r11230 uses call to DeleteVehicleChain
21:29:16  <SmatZ> where is
21:29:19  <SmatZ> 	assert(v->type != VEH_TRAIN && v->type != VEH_ROAD);
21:29:29  <SmatZ> it doesn't work for trains/rvs
21:29:34  <SmatZ> but I wonder why
21:29:58  <SmatZ> eg. current trunk ends in assert when deleting flooded vehicles
21:30:29  <SmatZ> anyway - it says my patch was incorrect, too
21:30:33  <SmatZ> probably
21:34:56  <SmatZ> actually I see no reason why this assert is there
21:37:38  <Rubidium> probably so-called histerical raisins
21:40:56  <Phazorx> Can someone confirm if this is ttrs issue or sometihng else:
21:41:11  <Phazorx> &
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21:42:55  <Rubidium> Phazorx: first try to reproduce it with a somewhat smaller list of NewGRFs
21:44:57  <Phazorx> Rubidium: it hapepnds on a save with only first 3
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21:46:39  <Rubidium> and when you disable the other two, or move them around?
21:47:37  <Wolf01> Phazorx, i confirm it, it happens with the firestation to me, sometimes with the hospital
21:48:10  <Phazorx> game wont load if i disable pbi
21:49:05  <Rubidium> anyhow, I'm gone
21:49:13  <Phazorx> and rearranging has no effect
21:49:34  <Wolf01> 'night
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