Log for #openttd on 23rd October 2007:
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00:01:41  <glx> AntB: easy, OpenTTD doesn't support original string replacing
00:03:23  <glx> easy to check with "openttd -d grf7"
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00:19:09  <AntB> I wish i knew that earlier :P
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01:23:35  <AntB> Is there anyway to catch OTTDs debug output to a file in windows? as the usual method doesn't work
01:23:51  <Tefad> openttd.exe >output.txt ?
01:24:20  <AntB> as i said, the usual method doesn't work
01:24:24  <glx> you need to use first
01:24:44  <Tefad> does windows have 2>debug.txt ?
01:25:00  <AntB> thx glx
01:25:02  <glx> windows has > and 2>
01:25:26  <glx> but ottd is a win app, and you must convert it into a console app
01:25:58  <AntB> thought as much
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01:31:18  <Tefad> ah. i see.
01:31:43  <Tefad> when did it become a windows app
01:32:02  <glx> it always has been
01:33:15  <Tefad> hmm. k
01:33:46  <Tefad> for some reason i remember it being console and spawning an sdl surface/window
01:33:47  <glx> a console app always open a console if not started from cmd
01:34:02  * Tefad shrugs
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01:48:54  <AntB> what debug level would help me find sync fails and the cause?
01:49:39  <glx> debug level won't help
01:50:07  <AntB> anything that will?
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01:50:22  <glx> you need a savegame with a desync happening very quickly
01:50:49  <glx> and a server and client built with random debug stuff
01:50:56  <glx> (a lot of output)
01:51:07  <AntB> ok
01:51:09  <Phazorx> glx:
01:51:18  <Phazorx> we are currently try to figure it ut by looking
01:51:30  <Phazorx> it is a bit weird and definatly over time thing
01:51:42  <Phazorx> since i have one client that desyncs and another that been on for last 30 min
01:51:53  <Phazorx> it is relevant to TBs patch
01:51:58  <Phazorx> and is recent development
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01:52:12  <glx> all clients and server use exactly the same patch?
01:52:32  <Phazorx> yes
01:52:38  <Phazorx> one that desyncs and one that does not
01:52:44  <Phazorx> uses same binary and settings
01:52:59  <glx> then it's a bug in the patch
01:53:04  <Phazorx> i know that
01:53:11  <Phazorx> we need to find the cause tho
01:53:44  <AntB> can't find the bug unless we know what it is :( a phrase i'm sure your familiar with
01:53:58  <Phazorx> and i am affraid that restarted server will behave differntly
01:54:16  <Phazorx> so we are trying to get as much usefull info as possoble before resortign to that
01:55:00  <Phazorx> i guess we just run out of options
01:55:23  <glx> where is the patch?
01:56:12  <AntB>
01:57:18  <Phazorx> glx: join  plz
01:57:28  <glx> no it's late :)
01:58:07  <AntB> no kiddin
02:00:17  <glx> good night
02:00:30  <AntB> night
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02:12:31  <Phazorx> hmm
02:18:09  <Phazorx> routing issue :(
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08:11:24  <TrueBrain> burp
08:12:46  <ln-> said TrueBrain
08:13:15  <TrueBrain> you can read! :)
08:13:19  <TrueBrain> I am so proud of you :)
08:14:24  <ln-> i'm the narrator
08:15:23  <TrueBrain> cool :)
08:15:26  <TrueBrain> and how are you doing?
08:16:34  <ln-> , asked TrueBrain
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08:45:44  <qkr> how do I check if current_player is AI or not?
08:45:53  <TrueBrain> IsHumanPlayer
08:46:01  <TrueBrain> works in Trunk anyway
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09:07:15  <dihedral> hi
09:07:51  <dihedral> for the new network command i need NetworkTCPSocketHandler *cs
09:07:59  <TrueBrain> now where is my narrator?
09:08:20  <dihedral> is there a function in can get this NetworkTCPSocketHandler *cs pre initialized?
09:08:32  <TrueBrain> dihedral: inside PACKET_XX 'cs' is defined
09:08:34  <TrueBrain> see other packets
09:08:52  <dihedral> does not seem wo work in DEF_SERVER_SEND_COMMAND_PARAM
09:09:31  <TrueBrain>  *cs, NetworkClientInfo *ci)
09:09:35  <TrueBrain> What part don't you understand?
09:10:02  <TrueBrain> it is better to copy/paste then to try figuring things out yourself :)
09:10:10  <TrueBrain> just copy the PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_INFO, and you will be fine
09:10:19  <dihedral> i dont understand that when i call it from my console cmd
09:10:28  <dihedral> how i pass cs to the network command
09:10:32  <dihedral> or do i not need to?
09:10:49  <TrueBrain> ah, you mean it like that
09:11:45  <dihedral> yeah, just batter down on me, even if i mean something different :-P
09:11:52  <TrueBrain> still the same hold
09:11:57  <TrueBrain> search for existing pieces of code
09:11:58  <TrueBrain> and copy/paste it
09:12:17  <TrueBrain> when I open up console_cmds.cpp, and search for a PACKET_SERVER
09:12:19  <TrueBrain> I hav ea hit
09:12:23  <TrueBrain> which shows pretty clear how to do it
09:12:26  <dihedral> existing stuff i have found use FOR_ALL_CLIENTS(cs)
09:13:11  <TrueBrain> SEND_COMMAND(PACKET_SERVER_ERROR)(NetworkFindClientStateFromIndex(index), NETWORK_ERROR_KICKED);
09:13:24  <TrueBrain> life is so simple :)
09:13:43  <dihedral> :-P
09:13:50  <dihedral> thank you TrueBrain
09:13:51  <TrueBrain> really, the search function is your best friend
09:14:26  <TrueBrain> how is it going with the rest?
09:14:35  <dihedral> pertty well actually
09:14:39  <TrueBrain> good :)
09:14:46  <TrueBrain> now I am going to find me a shower
09:14:46  <TrueBrain> bbl
09:14:47  <dihedral> we love your patch :-P
09:15:18  <dihedral> cu later
09:21:49  <Ammler> dihedral: I am not sure about Version 6
09:23:04  <Hendikins> I should fire up ottd again some time.
09:23:10  * Hendikins is now a railway employee :)
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09:30:21  <dihedral> my move clients patch disconnected the client i moved...
09:34:37  <Ammler> dihedral: did you submit your reload patch to ?
09:34:56  <Ammler> if not, you should make it trunkish, I like that very much
09:36:08  <Ammler> I realized that clients automatically rejoin after "newgame", that is very cool.
09:38:27  <TrueBrain> Ammler: it has been there from day 1 ;) Hehe :p
09:38:35  <Ammler> and Kommer did succesful reload yesterday the publicserver with new configuration without SSH
09:39:22  <Ammler> yeah, but some disconnects, but that might be a problem if there are too many connected...
09:39:38  <TrueBrain> Ammler: yup, listener backlog isn't that big
09:40:17  <Ammler> TrueBrain: did you check dihedral's reload patch, is it "trunkish"?
09:40:23  <TrueBrain> I did not check
09:41:11  <Ammler> at least it has some "beta" test behind on our server since 2 weeks...
09:43:00  <dihedral> Ammler: the rejoining of clients is no work of mine
09:43:16  <dihedral> that has always been done when issueing 'newgame' command
09:43:35  <TrueBrain> I am looking at the images in trg1r, and I see images I have never seen ingame :p
09:43:57  <dihedral> what are they? houses?
09:44:01  <TrueBrain> road-like
09:44:05  <TrueBrain> dunno
09:44:12  <TrueBrain> might be groundsprites
09:44:34  <TrueBrain> ah, they are
09:44:37  <TrueBrain> for rail junctions
09:44:56  <Ammler> yeah, maybe I failed at the beginning too, thats why I realized it yesterday first time.
09:45:04  <qkr> where is the "buy new vehicles" window located in the code?
09:45:15  <TrueBrain> build_vehicle_gui.cpp, in trunk anyway
09:46:24  <qkr> ok thanks
09:46:39  <Ammler> dihedral: one thing for reload patch, default should be true....
09:47:19  <Ammler> I see no reason why using newgame without loading cfg
09:49:41  <dihedral> i use it all the time
09:49:51  <dihedral> or let me rephrase that
09:50:01  <dihedral> when the server reaches restart_game_year
09:50:05  <dihedral> it has the same behaviour
09:50:15  <dihedral> i use that on the stable games
09:53:38  <Ammler> and why shouldn't the game reload cfg?
09:54:47  <Ammler> and at least you can disable it, but I think, reloading cfg would be more used...
09:54:50  <dihedral> my stable games hardly ever change config
09:55:05  <dihedral> you just need it enabled in your config
09:55:18  <dihedral> then, when it reloads the config, it sets that value to true
09:55:20  <qkr> I'm looking at build_vehicle_gui.c, there's only stuff about aircrafts and not other vehicles
09:55:26  <Ammler> its just a small thing,..
09:55:43  <dihedral> Ammler: set nextgame_reload_cfg = 1 on the console
09:56:02  <dihedral> and in section [network] of your config add
09:56:10  <dihedral> nextgame_reload_cfg = true
09:56:28  <dihedral> progmans tool does not everwrite that value :-)
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09:57:19  <Ammler> dihedral: I know that, but I just suggested to change the default, so most people don't have to add that in the cfg
09:57:46  <dihedral> :-P
09:57:59  <dihedral> i was thinking that some people might want to change settings ingame
09:58:09  <dihedral> those then do not get saved :-P
09:58:21  <dihedral> unless there is a saveconfig cmd for the console
09:58:24  <Ammler> ah, ok, possible too
09:58:39  <dihedral> if there is a save config console command
09:58:45  <Ammler> but that will change when they are using grf...
09:58:48  <dihedral> than i can set it to true by default
09:59:07  <Ammler> btw, did you check that already?
09:59:21  <dihedral> if there is a save config cmd?
09:59:30  <Ammler> thats the most needed feature for 0.6 servers i think...
09:59:41  <dihedral> save config?
09:59:47  <Ammler> possibilty to change grf settings on running game
09:59:58  <dihedral> it's possible
10:00:11  <dihedral> my nightly does it for most games
10:00:16  <Ammler> really?
10:00:20  <dihedral> we change some grf's and just run newgame
10:00:32  <Ammler> ah, ok, thats not running game then...
10:00:38  <dihedral> heh no
10:00:48  <dihedral> you mean change grf's and load a save?
10:01:02  <Ammler> you should be able to change grf settings like in single player...
10:01:21  <dihedral> no - that would disconnect all clients... i believe
10:01:32  <Ammler> thats ok
10:01:58  <Ammler> at least for beginning
10:02:26  <dihedral> :-P
10:02:33  <Ammler> but now you have to save it local, load it in sp and change setting, upload to server and reload it there...
10:02:36  <dihedral> it's not even included in trunk...
10:02:55  <dihedral> so i doubt it will be used that much
10:03:25  <Ammler> lol, how many servers do you know, which uses grfs?
10:03:32  <Ammler> (not nightly server)
10:03:39  <dihedral> perhaps 2 or 3?
10:04:03  <dihedral> and how many 0.5 servers do you know that have been compiled and possibly patched by the admins?
10:04:20  <Ammler> I know only Brianettas
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10:04:36  <dihedral> well - then
10:04:42  <dihedral> even less than what i thought :-P
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10:17:11  <dihedral> hmmm
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10:22:08  <Sacro> rawr
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10:25:13  * dihedral pats Sacro on the head
10:25:28  * Sacro purrs
10:25:47  <Sacro> ooh
10:25:57  <Sacro> Microsoft lecture in 90 mins
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10:26:00  <Sacro> gonna go heckle
10:26:05  <Sacro> <3 linux
10:34:37  <qkr> what are "flags" and "guiflags" in
10:34:38  <qkr> #define SDT_VAR(base, var, type, flags, guiflags, def, min, max, interval, str, proc)
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10:35:28  <Roujin> hi
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10:40:36  <Roujin> how do i print some debug line?
10:40:55  <Roujin> anyone knows?
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10:41:25  <Roujin> well, surely someone knows, but anyone here can tell me? :)
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10:54:17  <qkr> no idea man, I'm just learning to code openttd myself
10:54:59  <TrueBrain> Roujin: try DEBUG()
10:55:15  <TrueBrain> qkr: search lines where SDT_VAR is used
10:55:20  <TrueBrain> but basicly, you never use that directly
10:55:23  <TrueBrain> only SLE_XXX
10:55:47  <Ammler> Roujin: compile with --enable-debug (I guess nightlies are compiled this way)
10:56:07  <TrueBrain> Ammler: not needed
10:56:08  <Ammler> and run openttd with -d
10:56:14  <TrueBrain> even release builds print DEBUG when using -d
10:56:41  <Ammler> so only selfcompiled doesn't?
10:56:46  <TrueBrain> even they do
10:56:51  <TrueBrain> I wouldn't now how to disable it...
10:56:54  <TrueBrain> --disable-assert most likely
10:57:38  <Ammler> hmm, last time we searched for a bug, I had to ./configure --enable-debug
10:57:45  <TrueBrain> for gdb, yes
10:57:51  <Ammler> ah, ok
10:58:02  <TrueBrain> but the -d lines should always print
10:58:07  <TrueBrain> (when using the correct -d of course ;))
10:58:14  <Ammler> -D
10:58:25  <Roujin> how do i use the different levels?
10:58:34  <Roujin> first, thanks for the answer ;)
10:58:35  <TrueBrain> Roujin: search for other DEBUG()
10:58:44  <Roujin> will do, thanks
10:58:48  <TrueBrain> really, OpenTTD is pretty self explaining. Search for other instances, and it will come clear to you :)
10:58:55  <TrueBrain> we are not here to take your hand and show you everything ;)
10:59:02  <TrueBrain> and DEBUG is also most likely in the doxygen documentation
10:59:06  <TrueBrain> (
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11:01:24  <Roujin> sure, if i'd ask every little question i have i would probably be kicked for flooding the channel ;)
11:02:45  <TrueBrain> Roujin: :) I wish we could hold your hand, really, but.. it would stop us from doing any development ;)
11:02:53  <TrueBrain> ValueError: unsupported format character 'p' (0x70) at index 43
11:02:56  <TrueBrain> clear errors, whoho!
11:03:14  <Roujin> thanks for the link.. now i know where that doxygen is, that everyone speaks of ^^ (maybe i should have asked that, instead of about debug ;))
11:03:49  <TrueBrain> or you should have read the topic ;)
11:03:59  <Roujin> i know i know, i should know such things before even thinking of coding something for ottd ;)
11:04:16  <Roujin> shame on me
11:05:08  <TrueBrain> hehe :)
11:05:10  <TrueBrain> I like you :p
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11:06:26  <Roujin> now i'm scared oO
11:06:45  <TrueBrain> good
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11:15:32  <TrueBrain> bah, I hate my ISP, it blocks all my ports.. now I can't show your guys what pretty thing I made :)
11:16:03  <Ammler> you have a free connection then?
11:16:14  <TrueBrain> almost free :p
11:16:14  <Ammler> I wouldn't pay such a ISP
11:16:14  <TrueBrain> lol
11:16:22  <TrueBrain> I pay 9 euros for 100 mbit fulld uplex
11:16:27  <Ammler> wow
11:16:29  <TrueBrain> so, yeah, a small price to pay :p
11:16:40  <ln-> per minute?
11:16:55  <TrueBrain> I have an untrottled connection
11:17:19  <TrueBrain> meaning with some minor upgrdes, I should be able to get 1 gbit/s
11:18:05  <Ammler> and upload speed?
11:18:12  <TrueBrain> full duplex
11:18:17  <TrueBrain> so, 100 mbit/sec up and down
11:18:33  <Ammler> hmm, but no open ports, thats a silly ISP
11:18:52  <TrueBrain> hehe, else the amount of illegal stuff going over this network would be ^2 of the current rate :p
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11:19:06  <TrueBrain> but, we always have SSH tunnels
11:19:06  <Ammler> I guess 80 is open?
11:19:09  <TrueBrain> nope
11:19:33  <Ammler> and the mail ports...
11:19:42  <TrueBrain> incoming, no ports are open
11:19:47  <TrueBrain> outgoing, all are open
11:24:53  <TrueBrain>
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11:24:58  <TrueBrain> I love a bit of port forwarding :)
11:25:20  <TrueBrain> hmm,if the server wouldn't exit without reason...
11:25:33  <Amix> TrueBrain: hello
11:25:48  <TrueBrain> hi Amix
11:27:11  <Ammler> static MD5File files_openttd[] = {
11:27:11  <Ammler> 	{ "nsignalsw.grf", { 0x65, 0xb9, 0xd7, 0x30, 0x56, 0x06, 0xcc, 0x9e, 0x27, 0x57, 0xc8, 0xe4, 0x9b, 0xb3, 0x66, 0x81 } },
11:27:37  <Ammler> why are the md5sums stored so complicated in the source ?
11:28:00  <TrueBrain> Ammler: faster comparing
11:28:39  <Ammler> only comparing one byte by one?
11:30:38  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I dunno :p
11:30:40  <TrueBrain> I was just guessing
11:31:24  <blathijs> Ammler: The alternative would probably hex-encoding them in a string
11:32:18  <Ammler> yeah, just "my" md5tool only prints the sum in one string...
11:32:54  <Ammler> oh, my akku is going down... brb...
11:42:08  <qkr> oh games and cfg file go into "my documents" in the latest version, instead of the game directory...that's bad
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11:43:55  <qkr> and I can't load my 0.5.3 that normal?
11:44:19  <Gekz> you can fix the save game setting in the config I beliee
11:44:21  <Gekz> believe*
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11:45:57  <qkr> how?
11:47:14  <Amix> someone here knows a site with great themes or wallpapers compatible with Nokia E90 Communicator?
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11:47:49  <AntB> you tried
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11:55:28  <Ailure> [13:40] <qkr> oh games and cfg file go into "my documents" in the latest version, instead of the game directory...that's bad
11:55:29  <Ailure> not really
11:55:37  <Ailure> and you can change that by moving over the cfg file I belive
11:56:54  * dihedral is back
12:00:50  <qkr> well I guess it's a matter of personal preference where you like to have the cfg or savegames
12:01:53  <TrueBrain> "Time to generate (since ReadLine()): 0.480890 msec" <- that is _really_ fast :s
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12:02:32  <blathijs> TrueBrain: to generate what?
12:02:41  <TrueBrain> a dynamic page
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12:27:13  <dihedral> yay
12:27:22  <dihedral> moving clients from one company to another works
12:27:39  <dihedral> just have issues with moving to spec
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12:29:25  <TrueBrain> dihedral: you need to move it to player OWNER_SPECTATOR :)
12:29:47  <dihedral> i used PLAYER_SPECTATOR...
12:29:51  <dihedral> :-P
12:29:54  <TrueBrain> oh, also fine :p
12:30:11  <dihedral> well - then it did not work
12:31:04  <TrueBrain> btw, blathijs, I was talking about this page:
12:32:28  <blathijs> TrueBrain: wth is it?
12:32:35  <TrueBrain> blathijs: a prototype I am working on
12:32:44  <TrueBrain> showing what you can do with a bit clever desiging :)
12:32:50  <TrueBrain> when you press TICK, on the server nothing really happens
12:32:54  <TrueBrain> the 'game' was already running
12:33:04  <TrueBrain> (resource-wise nothing happens)
12:33:34  <blathijs> but what is it?
12:33:41  <TrueBrain> the game is a forloop, building the HTML for that grid, and after an event, changing all bare to normal
12:33:49  <TrueBrain> as you can see, it is very fast :p
12:35:32  <blathijs> I still don't understand what it does...
12:35:46  <blathijs> You're optimizing the generation of semi-random HTML AFAICS
12:35:59  <TrueBrain> it is a tiny bit hard to explain :p hehe
12:36:09  <TrueBrain> basicly: I have a game running on the background, and the http gives events
12:36:18  <TrueBrain> like: user pressed this, or user wants update
12:36:38  <TrueBrain> instead of the normal: when a http call is done, the page is generate from scratch
12:36:50  <TrueBrain> in this case, the page is already there, just waiting to make html
12:37:06  <TrueBrain> okay, I will stop trying to explain :) I can't ;)
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12:40:39  <qkr> what's wrong when I try to multiply Money with a float and the value is set to 0
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12:45:39  <dihedral> TrueBrain: could it be that SetLocalPlayer is causing the issue
12:45:46  <dihedral> when i move someone to PLAYER_SPECTATOR?
12:45:56  <TrueBrain> dihedral: I dunno, check it out ;)
12:46:35  <dihedral> assert(IsValidPlayer(new_player) || new_layer == PLAYER_SPECTATOR ...
12:46:39  <dihedral> looks like it :-P
12:47:01  <dihedral> or how does that thing work?
12:47:11  <dihedral> ah - nvm
12:47:17  <dihedral> reading comments helps :-D
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13:10:08  <flea> Hi noob here
13:10:14  <flea> hope I dont annoy anyone
13:10:32  <flea> but im having trouble hosting a server
13:10:35  <flea> any help?
13:10:50  <glx> what's the problem?
13:11:27  <flea> well my cousin can see the game but it says thats its offline
13:11:36  <flea> and he refreshes and it just disapears
13:12:05  <glx> is it visible on
13:12:25  <flea> ill check
13:13:29  <flea> no it isnt
13:13:36  <flea> so i must have stuffed up somewhere
13:13:44  <TrueBrain> @openttd port
13:13:44  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
13:14:08  <flea> ive looked it up on the forum
13:14:11  <flea> i saw that
13:14:32  <flea> but I have no idea how to change it
13:14:36  <flea> :S
13:14:45  <flea> sorry complete noob to this
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13:15:56  <flea> if it uses those ports is there any settings i have to change?
13:16:06  <dihedral> hmm...
13:16:14  <glx> you need to configure your firewall/router
13:16:28  <dihedral> TrueBrain: is there a variable i can check for how many companies exist?
13:16:32  <flea> ive allowd it to pass thru the firewall
13:16:57  <glx> dihedral: players in console
13:16:58  <TrueBrain> FOR_ALL_PLAYERS(p) if (p->is_active) i++ :p
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13:17:37  <dihedral> yes
13:17:47  <dihedral> i just thought there might be some existing var already
13:18:26  <dihedral> ActivePlayerCount()
13:18:30  <glx> flea: both UDP and TCP?
13:18:31  <dihedral> found it :-P
13:18:38  <TrueBrain> dihedral: search is your master :)
13:18:39  <TrueBrain> euh
13:18:40  <TrueBrain> :p
13:18:41  <flea> im lookin at it now
13:18:44  <flea> might have it
13:18:48  <flea> brb
13:20:23  <flea> im on vista
13:20:31  <flea> ive gone into firewall settings
13:20:48  <flea> and i can add a port
13:20:51  <flea> and name it
13:20:52  <flea> ect
13:20:58  <flea> is that what  im wanting to do
13:21:12  <dihedral> beat you to it this time TrueBrain
13:21:26  <TrueBrain> dihedral: it was in reply of what you said :)
13:21:27  <TrueBrain> but okay ;)
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13:22:24  <dihedral> well
13:22:36  <dihedral> i searched and found faster than you told me to search
13:22:38  <dihedral> :-P
13:22:44  <dihedral> it's improving :-D
13:22:49  <TrueBrain> I am happy for you :)
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13:22:51  <TrueBrain> or more: for myself :p
13:23:14  <dihedral> :-P
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13:26:42  <flea> ok well mines right
13:26:49  <flea> im jjust tryin to get my cousint ot do it
13:26:53  <flea> i sent him a screenshot
13:26:56  <flea> waitin on an answer
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13:29:17  <flea> while im waiting on him
13:29:33  <flea> where do i go to get the new industry patches?
13:29:40  <flea> ive been lookin all over
13:29:48  <dihedral>
13:29:55  <flea> but cant nav thru the forum that well
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13:30:46  <glx> you just need a nightly to use new industries
13:31:44  <TrueBrain> nice work dihedral
13:32:15  <dihedral> i would just like to get it to say the company name rather than the number, but that aint really important
13:32:17  <dihedral> it works :-)
13:32:31  <dihedral> thanks TrueBrain for having me blast out all those questions at you :-P
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13:33:22  <flea> cheers for that bout the new industry
13:33:34  <flea> all the ports were already open
13:33:48  <flea> so i still have no idea why the game wnt show up on the server
13:34:02  <glx> server_advertise ?
13:34:26  <flea> only when they click add server and put in the ip
13:34:31  <flea> yea its advertised
13:37:04  <glx> if it's advertised it should be visible on server page
13:39:50  <flea> well thats what i would have thought
13:41:18  <flea> I just tried running to at once and connecting to it
13:41:24  <flea> and it didnt show up
13:41:30  <flea> so it must be on my end
13:41:30  <dihedral> here's the diff:
13:42:22  <TrueBrain> (uint32) (atoi(argv[1])); => (uint32)atoi(argv[1]);
13:42:31  <TrueBrain> and uint32 should be uint16
13:42:34  <TrueBrain> as client_index is uint16
13:43:14  <dihedral>  (atoi(argv[1])); was a copy and paste
13:43:15  <TrueBrain> do the ci = NetworkFindClientInfoFromIndex(client_index); after the client_index == 0 check
13:43:17  <dihedral> but thanks
13:45:02  <TrueBrain> if(!IsValidPlayer(player_index) <- missing space
13:46:14  <dihedral> where should the space be?
13:46:32  <TrueBrain> between if and (
13:46:41  <dihedral> ah
13:46:43  <TrueBrain> at the end of that line there is a space missing too
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13:47:20  <dihedral> so if () {
13:47:28  <TrueBrain> yes
13:47:34  <TrueBrain> patch looks good for the rest, nice job :)
13:47:36  <hylje> if a: ..
13:47:43  <TrueBrain> hylje: no python :p
13:47:52  <hylje> noes
13:48:22  <dihedral> should i add checks in DEF_SERVER_SEND(PACKET_CLIENT_MOVE) ?
13:48:31  <TrueBrain> for what?
13:48:35  <dihedral> so i check client_index and player_index actually exist?
13:48:55  <dihedral> in case it gets used for another cmd?
13:48:58  <TrueBrain> we don't really do it in other cases
13:49:02  <TrueBrain> you only need to do it on the client
13:49:35  <dihedral> which i do :-)
13:49:54  <qkr> ok my patch is ready, how do I submit it?
13:50:21  <dihedral> you post it
13:50:25  <TrueBrain> qkr:, make sure you mark it as Patch
13:50:55  <dihedral> TrueBrain: Ammler suggested using the netowrk command from client side too
13:50:58  <dihedral> but clients then only specify the company and the password
13:51:17  <dihedral> so basically a PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_MOVE
13:51:23  <TrueBrain> dihedral: I would not do that, as it makes your patch useless
13:51:27  <TrueBrain> you move a client to spec
13:51:29  <TrueBrain> he moves himself back
13:51:37  <TrueBrain> and it would be 2 packets btw
13:51:38  <TrueBrain> not 1 :)
13:51:54  <dihedral> well - 1 i already have :-P
13:52:05  <Ammler> TrueBrain: I just thought about general usage
13:52:22  <TrueBrain> people can leave and rejoin :p
13:52:33  <Ammler> you can join and ask the company for access, they need to give you the pw and you can change...
13:52:37  <dihedral> or, with this patch, ask admin
13:52:44  <TrueBrain> btw, dihedral, your patch _might_ cause desyncs for the player you move
13:52:54  <dihedral> why?
13:53:01  <dihedral> when building while being moved?
13:53:04  <TrueBrain> as the player-change isn't queued
13:53:12  <dihedral> ?
13:53:19  * dihedral is lost, once again
13:53:26  <TrueBrain> I guess there are some very exeptional conditions which can cause desyncs on it :)
13:53:33  <TrueBrain> normally, all commands are queued
13:53:36  <TrueBrain> and handled one by one
13:53:41  <TrueBrain> with a general clock-ticker
13:53:48  <TrueBrain> this bypasses it all :)
13:54:00  <dihedral> heh
13:54:05  <TrueBrain> it shouldn't cause any desyncs
13:54:08  <dihedral> well - then the client only gets kicked
13:54:11  <TrueBrain> yes
13:54:24  <TrueBrain> but under some conditions, I can see it happening :)
13:54:27  <TrueBrain> but odn't worry about it
13:54:32  <dihedral> k
13:55:22  <dihedral> here's the diff: should i post it on :-P
13:55:28  <TrueBrain> please do
13:55:37  <dihedral> uh
13:55:44  <dihedral> did not expect you to like it that much
13:56:01  <hylje> TrueBrain lieks nothing
13:56:04  <hylje> ;P
13:56:14  <TrueBrain> dihedral: I don't have to like it in order to find it useful enough to find it worth comitting :p
13:56:17  <TrueBrain> this isn't my game ;)
13:56:30  <dihedral> lol
13:56:42  <dihedral> rofl
13:59:07  <dihedral> how can i force update on the clients icons in the toolbar
13:59:17  <flea> to install a nightly I simply unzip the file to my OTTD dir and replace?
13:59:29  <glx> yes
13:59:37  <dihedral> because atm, when i move a client from spec to a company, the client has to click on the icon before the shade dissapears
13:59:37  <Ammler> flea: make a copy first
13:59:51  <TrueBrain> dihedral: check code around SetLocalPlayer
13:59:52  <flea> yea i have no saved games im interested in
13:59:55  <TrueBrain> I am sure there is some code giving that away :)
14:00:05  <glx> yes better to do as Ammler says, so you can have both versions
14:00:13  <flea> o i c
14:01:19  <Ammler> glx: I looked more intensive into the "wrong flag" thing, I can't find a better resolution for flags, then already exists
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14:01:44  <Ammler> 6x9 is simply optimal
14:02:02  <dihedral> i'll look into it, and up date the fs ticket if i manage it, but for now: fs1363
14:02:08  <Ammler> next step is double so 12x18
14:02:23  <Ammler> and that won't fit it
14:03:07  <Ammler> (with border 14x20)
14:03:49  <dihedral> Ammler: did you see the party grf from AntB?
14:04:19  <Ammler> so my already submitted "bugfix" is the best, maybe the from skidd without white...
14:04:36  <Ammler> dihedral: nope
14:04:39  <Ammler> screen?
14:05:26  <dihedral> no - just ran a test
14:05:30  <dihedral> i'll make one in a min
14:06:46  <Ammler> and add it to the "roadmap" if you edit it next time...
14:06:57  <dihedral> i have
14:07:07  <dihedral> i set it to 20something
14:07:18  <dihedral> as we are waiting to hear from the rest
14:07:53  <dihedral> actually it would have to be 30something - 40
14:08:39  <Ammler> dihedral: you removed Soup :)
14:08:45  <dihedral> aye
14:09:08  <dihedral> and i thought i make it as clear as possible :-P
14:09:09  <Ammler> dihedral: I meant a link to the GRF
14:10:36  <dihedral>
14:11:36  <Ammler> :) not for me, to the wiki, and not the download link directly just to the post, I suggest...
14:11:54  <dihedral> :-D
14:11:57  <dihedral> why dont you say so
14:12:00  <Ammler> like I did for the snowgrf
14:16:11  <flea> so for new industrys i would need to add the grf yea?
14:20:34  <flea> i added a nightly
14:20:40  <dihedral> my word
14:20:44  <flea> but all im after is the new industries
14:20:47  <dihedral> i am too stupid to fill in a bug report
14:20:48  <flea> and they didnt show up
14:21:11  <dihedral> flea: have a look for pbi
14:21:21  <dihedral> it's a grf
14:21:34  <dihedral> and you can find it on grfcrawler or in the openttdcoop grf pack
14:21:50  <dihedral> dont forget to download the update pack of the coop pack :-P
14:22:05  <flea> ok dou have a link by any chance?
14:22:11  <flea> Im a pain arent I
14:22:43  <Ammler> dihedral: not needed anymore, grfpack is up2date
14:22:43  <dihedral>
14:22:48  <dihedral> uh
14:22:53  <dihedral> you released final?
14:22:56  <Ammler> except ECS :P
14:23:02  <Ammler> nope
14:23:04  <dihedral> k
14:23:36  <Ammler> final will be out tomorrow or the day after...
14:23:42  <Ammler> if all GRFs are ready
14:23:51  <flea> cheers
14:23:55  <Ammler> hmm, ok, I'll wait until friday
14:24:29  <dihedral> :-P
14:24:43  <dihedral> so the game starts 14.30 CEST?
14:24:59  <Ammler> hmm, 13.30 ?
14:25:05  <Ammler> 12.30 UTC
14:25:22  <dihedral> CET = UTC+1, CEST = UTC+2
14:25:23  <Ammler> hmm, yes summer time
14:25:26  <dihedral> :-D
14:25:41  <Ammler> late?
14:25:45  <dihedral> that was my neat way of saying "are you really sure?"
14:29:29  <dihedral> one of the guys lives in the zone GMT+10
14:29:39  <dihedral> i.e. 2030 when we start
14:29:42  <dihedral> i think
14:30:43  <TrueBrain> <- I love AJAX :)
14:31:00  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: these are desyncs and not different client
14:31:04  <qkr> I've posted my patch at I need to do anything else?
14:31:07  <Phazorx> heya btw
14:31:17  <TrueBrain> (yuo can click on AjaxTick :p)
14:31:26  <TrueBrain> qkr: wait :)
14:31:32  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: weird desyncs
14:31:43  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: it could very well be WP related
14:31:51  <blathijs> TrueBrain: ah, the tiles are inverting on each reload
14:31:54  <Phazorx> since it started after i put WPs as blockers
14:31:59  <blathijs> I thought they were random permutations
14:32:18  <TrueBrain> blathijs: no
14:32:39  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: I will need to see a live example to tell anything about it
14:33:11  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: care to join the server?
14:33:23  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: sure, give me a revision and patch version
14:33:36  <Phazorx> 11336 + v6
14:33:42  <Phazorx> join
14:34:20  <qkr> is there any way to open a 0.5.3 savegame on the latest build? I get "Broken savegame - invalid chunk size"
14:34:42  <TrueBrain> qkr: that shouldn't happen
14:35:24  <Belugas> qkr, i'm not too sure about your change.  It is limited, in my opinion
14:35:40  <Belugas> I would rather see an addition on grf specs instead
14:36:07  <blathijs> qkr: Is that with an unmodified build? Or do you have patches applied?
14:38:14  <qkr> only my own patch
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14:41:19  <qkr> belugas: ok...
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14:44:07  <Belugas> 1) add a ai_cost member to vehicle struct, 2) add a grf property loader fro vehicles in newgrf.cpp 3) branch your code to this new value 4) make sure you provide a default value - in this case, it should be the regular cost
14:44:10  <dihedral> TrueBrain: just found that when moving a client to spectators, i _must_ update the toolbar asap, as that otherwise will assert
14:44:32  <dihedral> if the toolbar is used before it gets updated automatically
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14:46:47  <qkr> what's the difference of doing it the grf way or my way?
14:47:15  <Belugas> 1) grf = configurable per vehicle type
14:47:26  <Belugas> 2) anyone can write his own setting
14:47:42  <Belugas> 3) you do need a path option
14:48:03  <Belugas> errr..
14:48:23  <Belugas> 3) you do NOT need a patCh option
14:49:09  <Belugas> 4) anyone (O)TTD(P) have the benefit of it, given that TTDP implements its counterpart
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14:51:46  <qkr> ok...I might have to look at that later...
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14:57:43  <Belugas> it is not that hard, rest assure
14:58:22  <dihedral> recv failed with error 54
14:58:24  <dihedral> :-P
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15:18:41  <dihedral> TrueBrain: can i bother you again with that move clients patch, or are you busy atm
15:18:55  <hylje> moar
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15:19:44  * Belugas goes back on customer's site
15:19:51  <dihedral> :-P
15:22:12  <dihedral> when can my game exit with 'Bus error' ?
15:26:28  <hylje> Train Error
15:26:52  <ln-> yeah, stick to trains and planes
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16:11:40  <dihedral> const NetworkPlayerInfo *npi = &_network_player_info[player_index];
16:11:48  <dihedral> npi->company_name
16:12:01  <dihedral> for some reason i only get an empty string...
16:12:12  <dihedral> any hints?
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16:27:45  <TrueBrain> <- scroll the map :p
16:28:22  <TrueBrain> (click left/right/up/down)
16:28:40  <dihedral> i dont get any values for client_name and company_name in their corresponding strucs
16:29:24  <dihedral> TrueBrain: are you reading that data out of a save?
16:29:48  <dihedral> or just random?
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16:33:47  <qkr> is there something wrong with the svn version? planes seem to fly really fast
16:34:01  <Ailure> no that's a feature
16:34:03  <Ailure> :)
16:34:22  <Ailure> their speed is in more scale with real world speed
16:34:26  <Ailure> eh
16:34:27  <Ailure> rather
16:34:32  <Ailure> in scale with other vehicles I mean
16:34:40  <Ailure> before they were flying four times slower than trains I belive
16:35:00  <qkr> well that's nice but it seems to completely unbalance the game...planes are making millions of profit really fast now
16:36:58  <Ailure> also that change happened so long time ago it's not really funny
16:37:07  <Ailure> well some newGRF's balances it out apparently
16:37:58  <qkr> now I get error when I try to load my savegame
16:37:58  <Ammler> [18:30] <TrueBrain> <- scroll the map   <---- does that need a special kind of browser/plugin?
16:38:23  <qkr> "there is no town in scenario" when I try to load savegame...
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16:41:55  <qkr> I guess I'll have to go back to playing 0.5.3
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16:43:26  <dihedral> Ammler: you need to have javascript enabled
16:44:51  <SpComb> I only get a blank screen
16:44:59  <SpComb> is it a scrollable OpenTTD map, and if so, give me more details, please
16:45:54  * SpComb pokes TrueBrain
16:50:59  <dihedral> you need to enable javascript
16:51:11  <SpComb> I have
16:51:42  <SpComb> well, I viewed it with NoScript at first, but then allowed it, still just a blank page
16:52:05  <SpComb> Connecting to connected.
16:52:05  <SpComb> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... No data received.
16:52:12  <Ailure> same
16:52:27  <Ammler> yeah, 1. blank, now no connectin
16:55:17  <TrueBrain> SpComb: try biw
16:55:20  <TrueBrain> try now
16:55:22  <TrueBrain> server crashed
16:55:35  <TrueBrain> I do not yet handle all exceptions correctly :)
16:55:48  <SpComb> so what is it?
16:56:02  <TrueBrain> you can scroll a map :)
16:56:05  <TrueBrain> proof-of-concept
16:56:15  <SpComb> I thought it was a scrollable view of an OpenTTD game :(
16:56:37  <SpComb> prototype.js <
16:56:37  <TrueBrain> maybe in the future :p
16:56:38  <SpComb> <3
16:56:41  <TrueBrain> for now it is a prototype :)
16:56:44  <SpComb> and firebug, in case you don't have those yet
16:56:56  <TrueBrain> showing that it can be done :) On very high speeds ( < 1ms)
16:57:17  <TrueBrain> SpComb: I am not interested in the javascript, more in the backend :)
16:57:34  <SpComb> Prototyp makes your JS code a lot nicer
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16:58:07  <SpComb> Ajax.Request with a function or two as an argument instead of some weird IE/Mozilla/whatever stuff and stateChanged
16:58:08  <TrueBrain> no, it does it for me :p
16:58:21  <TrueBrain> SpComb: prototype does that 'weird' stuff
16:58:32  <TrueBrain> simple wrappers :)
16:58:58  <SpComb> I mean prototype.js, the Javascript library
16:58:59  <dihedral> TrueBrain: i dont get anything with _network_player_info[index]
16:59:08  <dihedral> any hints?
16:59:12  <TrueBrain> dihedral: nope
16:59:15  <dihedral> k
16:59:17  <TrueBrain> SpComb: yes, me too
16:59:21  <TrueBrain> it just does all those things for you
16:59:25  <TrueBrain> nevertheless, it does do those things
17:00:17  <SpComb> mm, python
17:00:23  <SpComb> is test.txt relevant code?
17:01:17  <TrueBrain> was an old version of the 'game'
17:01:33  <SpComb> but a scrollable minimap/screenshot is something that might be interesting to do for MyOTTD
17:01:56  <SpComb> modify the OpenTTD code to draw them as .png buffers and stream them directly from the openttd process to the HTTP reply
17:02:04  <hylje> haha
17:02:09  <hylje> see google maps
17:02:15  <TrueBrain> SpComb: if you reload test.txt, it shows the current code
17:02:18  <SpComb> I've seen google maps before
17:04:02  <SpComb> gah, the half-semester maths exam was last week, and I got through that, but there's a physics and electrical engineering exam next week, and I like really need to study for them if I want to have any hope of getting them done this semester
17:04:22  <SpComb> meaning that I can't really work on MyOTTD... but generally I don't really study for them either, zero interest...
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17:05:07  <SpComb> TrueBrain: JSON!
17:05:41  <Wolf01> hello
17:05:52  <TrueBrain> SpComb: it has some work :)
17:06:13  <SpComb> what has what work?
17:06:23  <TrueBrain> and now: FOOD!
17:07:53  <SpComb> hmm, soon it'll have been a month since I posted the topic on the forums
17:08:02  <SpComb> damn maths
17:09:29  <hylje> damm
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17:15:10  <SpComb> damn
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17:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> maths is funny ;)
17:17:08  <ln-> even ridiculous
17:17:17  <hylje> are
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17:21:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> hylje are funny either
17:22:14  <hylje> !
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17:36:28  <SpComb> not when you need to learn five week's worth of maths for an exam on monday
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17:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> i never learned for maths...
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17:57:44  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: please tell me you had to put more effort on learning some other subject?
17:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> i suck at sports if that is what you mean ;)
17:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> but don't worry, i know people who are even more crazy than me ;)
18:00:58  <Bjarni> sports is like sex. It's as fun to do as it's boring to watch other people do it
18:03:03  <ln-> also sex is like sports.
18:04:09  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: what was your result in the 12-min Cooper test?
18:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> er... i'm not really sure i like what you are insinuating :p
18:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> the what test?
18:04:35  <Bjarni> Cooper test
18:04:43  <Bjarni> that's the running test
18:05:00  <Belugas> [14:03] <@Bjarni> sports is like sex. It's as fun to do as it's boring to watch other people do it  <- judgment based on your own opinion, Bjarni
18:05:05  <Bjarni> basically you run as long as you can during 12 minutes and the result is how long you ran
18:05:24  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3:
18:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't remember ever doing that
18:05:50  <ln-> Belugas: heh, yeah, Bjarni just proved the porn industry cannot exist.
18:05:50  <Belugas> Bjarni: it can be really fun to watch a good game of somehting you're addicted to, just for the fun of learning new ways of doing..
18:06:14  <Belugas> ln-, that too :)
18:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> all running tests i have done were like "run X (kilo-)meter and take the time it takes"
18:06:41  <Bjarni> you presume that I mean that watching people having sex should be boring... I never said that :P
18:06:49  *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
18:06:56  * SpComb wonders if he could run 2300m in 12 minutes
18:07:00  <Bjarni> that's what I think, but I didn't say that
18:07:15  <Belugas> you did!
18:07:54  <Belugas> by specifying "sports is like sex", the following sentence thus so applies to both sex and sport :P
18:07:56  <Bjarni> well... I guess I did
18:08:08  <Bjarni> but then again, why should it be wrong to tell the truth? :P
18:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> what i meant was: if i say "i suck at sport" and you say "sport is like sex" would result in "i suck at sex"...
18:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> which is...
18:08:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> ... ambiguous at best
18:08:42  <Bjarni> both sex and sports are physical acts
18:09:00  <Bjarni> so if you have motor problems, then you could suck at both
18:10:11  <ln-> Bjarni: what was your result in the Cooper test?
18:10:24  <Bjarni> hmm
18:10:30  <Belugas> [14:10] <@Bjarni> but then again, why should it be wrong to tell the truth? :P  <---- YOUR truth, Bjarni, your and only one... You tend to generalize based on your opinions
18:11:09  <Belugas> [14:11] <@Bjarni> so if you have motor problems, then you could suck at both  <--- depends what is the motor problem ;)
18:11:26  <Bjarni> I did fairly well in the Cooper test
18:11:36  <Bjarni> but I can't remember the number
18:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: it says "this test is unsuited for untrained people"
18:12:50  <Bjarni> but I can remember that I kept on running when most of the others started to drop out :)
18:13:30  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: but... there's 11 minutes to train for the last minute.
18:13:48  <Bjarni> :P
18:15:30  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: and besides, "untrained people" probably means "fat americans who suffer a heart attack after 100 meters".
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18:16:47  <ln-> btw, the english wikipedia has a more sensible table of evaluation of the result:
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18:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: like i said, i do not remember ever taking this test
18:29:37  <Bjarni> so basically we don't know how you are physically, but we do know something about your memory
18:29:47  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: did i claim the opposite since you first said that?
18:30:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> and "fat americans who suffer a heart attack after 100 meters" are unlikely to be meant on a german page :p
18:32:40  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: but if someone is able -- and used to -- to running a few kilometers without trouble, i wouldn't consider them to be "untrained" in that case.
18:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> you see... the "and used to" part is the key element
18:34:17  <ln-> i'm not sure if we're talking on general level or about you or someone else specifically now.
18:34:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> great, mission accomplished :p
18:36:37  <ln-> and i'm not sure what we're talking about anyway; you said you haven't taken the test, which is acknowledged, yet then you kind of give the "not for untrained" as a reason for not taking the test, although you hadn't even heard about it before.
18:37:42  <Bjarni> I once missed the bus and had to run 2 km in 10 minutes... I made it even though I had to cross roads (stop and take a look for cars...) and had a backpack
18:37:57  <Bjarni> so I wouldn't consider myself untrained :)
18:38:45  <Bjarni> specially because I'm not far or American
18:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> if i miss the bus, i'd have to run 15-20km
18:39:31  <hylje> if i miss the bus ill wait for the next one
18:39:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> i usually just go home again in that case...
18:39:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> the next bus goes 2h later
18:40:16  <Bjarni> the problem is that the next bus was scheduled to the very same minute as I should arrive
18:40:50  <Bjarni> all the way I could imagine everybody at school gathering and look at me when I showed up late... didn't happen :D
18:41:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> i got late to school all the time...
18:41:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> my english teacher was not really fond of me :p
18:41:56  <Bjarni> you lived right next door to your school?
18:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> (i had english first hour on monday and tuesday)
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18:42:08  <Bjarni> :P
18:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: no, the same 15-20km
18:42:17  <Bjarni> heh
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18:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> although, the bus went totally early, so i usually went with my father who drove to work
18:43:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> and he cannot get up early either ;)
18:43:27  <ln-> getting up early is just unnatural.
18:43:39  <Bjarni> at one time the trains didn't drive for 30 minutes and naturally a whole lot of us turned up late for a math test. The teacher didn't believe our story about no trains and claimed that we had agreed to show up late to sabotage her test
18:44:17  <Bjarni> now how obscene is that???
18:44:55  <Bjarni> note: normally there should be a train every 10th minute so a 30 minute without trains is considered a really long time
18:45:27  <hylje> exactly why the teacher didn't habeeb it
18:46:08  <Bjarni> nahh... that line is not known to keep the schedule
18:46:22  <Bjarni> it fucked up today as well
18:46:35  <Bjarni> all signals in a like 15 km part of it died
18:46:43  <hylje> haha
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18:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause3>
18:47:21  <Bjarni> with 2 km between the signals in each direction (it's double tracked) it makes a whole lot of signals
18:47:57  <hylje> about 30
18:48:03  <Bjarni> yeah
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18:48:23  <Bjarni> and then the trains should stop at every single one and use the radio to get a permission to pass
18:48:32  <Bjarni> they fixed it ASAP
18:48:58  <hylje> iow a hour or so later ;)
18:49:04  <Bjarni> no
18:49:18  <Bjarni> I don't know how long it took them to fix it
18:49:23  <Bjarni> but longer than an hour
18:49:34  <hylje> point
18:49:44  <Bjarni> also I don't know if they actually fixed it or just manned the stations in each end
18:50:39  <Bjarni> if the stations are manned and they communicate with each other they can declare the track between them as free and give a written permission to each train to allow them to drive and pass all signals in between nomatter what they show
18:51:08  <Bjarni> so a "fix" could be not to use the signals, but use locally controlled stations like in the steam era
18:51:16  <hylje> with phones
18:51:34  <Bjarni> I think they would use their internal radio system
18:51:42  <Bjarni> but phones could work
18:51:53  <Bjarni> they don't use telegraphs anymore ;)
18:52:07  <Bjarni> bbl
18:52:48  <hylje> at least here the rail operator runs optic fiber with most rail
18:52:59  <hylje> operates the signal systems and comm
19:01:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> hahaha :p
19:01:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> Leia: "Baby's yours." Luke: "Bad news
19:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause3>  - Steven Meretzky
19:02:10  <Noldo> Now that Rubidium did the overloadsafeint thing I can check how much my CommandCost thing lags
19:05:09  *** skidd13 [] has joined #openttd
19:05:27  <skidd13> Hi
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19:33:08  <dihedral> hello skidd13
19:33:44  <dihedral> TrueBrain: you want to skimm over that?
19:34:09  <TrueBrain> dihedral: not currently
19:34:12  <skidd13> dihedral: comments in the patch?
19:35:42  <dihedral> heh
19:35:45  <dihedral> good point
19:35:53  <dihedral> TrueBrain: i'll post it to bugs
19:37:58  <dihedral> skidd13: it moves a client to any company or to spectator mid game :-)
19:38:28  <Bjarni> <hylje> at least here the rail operator runs optic fiber with most rail <-- optic fibers are too modern for our security approval system. We use copper only
19:38:39  <Bjarni> basically the system haven't changed in the past 100 years
19:38:42  <skidd13> dihedral: I see, but I miss comments in the patch
19:39:10  <Bjarni> the basic physics in it... not the signals
19:39:42  <dihedral> i am adding them right now
19:44:08  <skidd13> dihedral: might help
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19:44:43  <dihedral> i am copying form other stuff above my code...
19:45:10  <dihedral> no DEV_CLIENT_RECEIVE_COMMAND block has a doxygen style comment block
19:45:17  <dihedral> *DEF
19:45:53  <skidd13> dihedral: If it has not there is no reason why it shouldn't have
19:46:39  <dihedral> it is not a function of that sort..
19:46:55  <skidd13> And?
19:47:24  <skidd13> I see no reason for leaving the documentaion blank
19:48:20  <dihedral> i dont have enough info
19:48:52  <dihedral> as _no_ send or receive block as a docblock
19:49:01  <dihedral> and it is not in the wiki
19:49:01  <skidd13> You coded that stuff you should have.
19:49:09  <dihedral> and they are all called via a diff function
19:49:39  <dihedral> skidd13: as in how to comment the commands with doxygen comment blocks
19:49:46  <dihedral> i know what happens
19:49:47  <skidd13> The function docu describes what the function does
19:49:55  <skidd13> not every part of it
19:50:03  <dihedral> you know how the send commands are called?
19:50:15  <dihedral> you know how the recv blocks are called?
19:50:22  <dihedral> via another function
19:50:37  <dihedral> you want a doxygen doc block for something you cannot call?
19:50:50  <dihedral> i can understand that the inline comments are missing
19:51:23  <dihedral> but if i am not provided with a method that *i know* will be ok for thes blocks...
19:51:34  <dihedral> i have no idea how to comment them
19:51:51  <dihedral> and making function dock blocks for something that is not really a function or called directly
19:52:00  <dihedral> i do not know if that could muddle some documentation up
19:52:04  <skidd13> If the comment is sufficient, I'm satisfied. I only want to tell you that I miss a lot of comments ;)
19:52:20  <dihedral> just working on that right now :-)
19:54:17  <Ammler> dihedral: who else knows that better then you :)
19:55:56  <Rubidium> little quiz, what's different with normal trunk: (skidd13 you may not enter this competition ;))
19:57:16  <skidd13> :D
19:57:18  <Bjarni> may I enter it? :P
19:57:37  <blathijs> There is this weird white-ish track on the bottom?
19:58:00  <skidd13> blathijs: nope
19:58:02  <Rubidium> Bjarni: no, you only spoil the fun ;)
19:58:18  <blathijs> skidd13: There is! What's the white-ish track then?
19:58:28  <Rubidium> that's autorail
19:58:34  <Rubidium> just the cursor isn't drawn
19:58:46  <blathijs> autorail?
19:58:59  * blathijs hasn't been playing for a while :-)
19:59:11  <skidd13> blathijs: track placement highlight.
19:59:15  <Bjarni> o_O
19:59:15  <Rubidium> a while? meaning 2 years?
19:59:25  <Belugas> build:c:\c\JJ\sv1020_012br36.gbb
19:59:26  <Bjarni> ludde made autorail ages ago
19:59:31  <Belugas> arhgg...
19:59:32  <Belugas> sorry
19:59:55  <Sacro> @seen ludde
19:59:55  <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen ludde.
20:00:11  <Bjarni> Belugas: I don't think that's the right answer... but we can't tell for sure until we have decoded wtf you just said :P
20:00:48  <Bjarni> ludde retired after releasing 0.3.5 or something
20:00:59  <Bjarni> I think autorail was made on the old svn server
20:01:34  <skidd13> Hey folks no idea...
20:01:38  <skidd13> ?
20:01:58  <Ammler> opposite of foundations
20:01:59  <Sacro> hmmm, whats a class 7
20:02:06  <Sacro> freight 45mph methinks
20:02:12  <TrueBrain> oh, I have a quiz too: what map is this: :p
20:02:25  <Bjarni> Sacro: that's the thing between class 6 and class 8
20:02:28  <Sacro> holy carp
20:02:30  <Sacro> phpttd?
20:02:34  <TrueBrain> lol :p
20:02:35  <TrueBrain> no PHP
20:02:35  <Bjarni> do I really have to tell you everything? :P
20:02:38  <TrueBrain> would be to darn slow
20:03:07  <Rubidium> Ammler: where can you see those opposite foundations?
20:03:20  <Sacro> oh noes
20:03:22  <Ammler> north of ore mines
20:03:25  <Sacro> train emergancy stopping ><
20:03:43  <Bjarni> Sacro: you are on a train right now?
20:03:55  <Bjarni> or playing a railsim?
20:03:58  <Rubidium> Ammler: that are just normal foundations
20:04:37  <Ammler> ah I have it now
20:04:57  <skidd13> Ammler: and?
20:05:10  <Ammler> its something liek foundationbridge
20:05:15  <Sacro> Bjarni: no, simsig
20:05:24  <skidd13> Ammler: nope
20:06:24  * Rubidium wonders what foundationbridge is
20:06:34  <skidd13> Rubidium: Seems that they build a harmonious picture ;)
20:07:25  *** Prof_Frink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:08:05  <Ammler> Rubidium: the foundations like you have near the tunnels
20:08:11  <Ammler> but only one tile
20:08:17  <Ammler> they are 2 tiles
20:08:32  <Ammler> so its doable in trunk
20:09:12  <Ammler> the thing you pointed as impossible at saturday
20:09:21  <Sacro> hmmm, this crossing is cleared even though no train is due to go over it
20:09:35  <skidd13> Ammler: nope foundation is a quite icy guess
20:11:11  <Rubidium> skidd13: seems like people aren't playing enough OTTD to actually notice :(
20:11:26  <Ammler> + / - ?
20:12:01  <Ammler> hmm, no
20:12:13  *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
20:12:16  <skidd13> Rubidium: They'll see all changes (I meant the bigger ones)
20:13:10  <Ammler> its clear now, didn't believe it so I started a ottd client
20:13:55  <skidd13> Ammler: and?
20:14:15  <skidd13> share your knowledge.
20:14:37  <Ammler> erail autotool
20:14:44  <skidd13> 100 points
20:14:48  <Ammler> :)
20:14:51  <skidd13> wait 50
20:14:54  <Rubidium> skidd13: noo... only 50 ;)
20:15:09  <skidd13> nope 25 only
20:15:10  <skidd13> ;)
20:15:11  <Ammler> there is a second?
20:15:24  <Ammler> or my wrong answers?
20:15:24  <skidd13> but only 50% visible
20:15:25  <Rubidium> skidd13: well, the last 50 points they can't get as they can't see it ;)
20:15:41  <skidd13> there is a second
20:16:14  <skidd13> Ammler: hard to spot but you are close to it
20:16:36  <Ammler> I have something missing here, the depot should also have some
20:17:05  <Ammler> maybe the convert...
20:17:11  <skidd13> now 50
20:17:16  <skidd13> or 100
20:17:24  <Ammler> tunnel?
20:17:27  <skidd13> *thumbs up*
20:17:39  <Rubidium> tunnel hasn't changed
20:17:58  <Rubidium> but yes, the autorail and convert are changed
20:18:07  <skidd13> You can guess the other 50%, cause you know the rest ;)
20:18:22  <Ammler> :)
20:18:25  <Rubidium> but now you say it, maybe the depot needs another sprite too
20:18:53  <skidd13> Hmmpf.... I thought nobody would notice ;)
20:19:06  <glx> the other 50% is not visible on screenshots
20:19:21  <Ammler> the english flag?
20:19:22  <skidd13> glx: yes, what is missing ;)
20:19:30  <glx> cursors I guess
20:19:38  <skidd13> Ammler: nope
20:19:38  <skidd13> glx. yup
20:20:44  <Ammler> Rubidium: do you know, what I mean with "opposite foundations"?
20:21:17  <Rubidium> something that was "hot" in the TTDP forum a while ago
20:21:29  <Ammler> yeah!
20:21:36  <Wolf01> i missed something?
20:21:39  <Ammler> MB made a shot
20:22:14  <Ammler> dunno if it was fake...
20:22:15  <Rubidium>
20:22:20  <Rubidium> well, it is fake
20:23:24  <Ammler> thats not MBs
20:23:37  <Ammler> I saw other screens
20:24:08  <Rubidium> same idea
20:24:36  <Ammler> yep, but not fakes, I assume...
20:24:40  <Wolf01> i think that this is possible to do, at least the first one
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20:31:18  <dihedral> heh - how is that, added a bunch of comments :-P
20:31:30  <Ammler> Wolf01: Rubidium and Frosch should know it..., its simular to the halftile thing...
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20:34:51  <Rubidium> Ammler: actually not really
20:35:02  <dihedral> could someone change 'reported version' from 0.5.3 to nightly in FS1363 for me?
20:35:07  <Rubidium> halftile did not change the map array
20:36:15  <Rubidium> those "building under slopes" require extra map bits
20:36:34  <Rubidium> primarily as you can't tell whether it should be a positive or negative foundation
20:39:00  <Wolf01> so... add these extra bits, make this possible in combination with the bridgeheads and other useful things ;)
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20:39:33  <Rubidium> seems like Wolf01's going to code 'under' slopes and bridgeheads ;)
20:39:42  <Wolf01> yes, why not
20:39:42  <Rubidium> that'd be nice ;)
20:39:43  *** Ben_1 is now known as _Ben_
20:40:03  <Rubidium> lol ;)
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20:40:18  <Wolf01> i'm trying to code diagonal roads since the old project was abandoned
20:40:28  <Wolf01> and without any improvement
20:40:30  <Wolf01> :P
20:41:16  <Desolator> hi guys (& maybe gals, too)
20:41:18  <Wolf01> the best thing i coded 'til now is the transparency patch
20:41:22  <bruce89> I assume people here know that trunk doesn't work
20:41:25  <Wolf01> hi Desolator
20:41:51  <Rubidium> Wolf01: have fun with doing some major rework of the pathfinders, as that's required for both bridgeheads and under slopes.
20:42:32  <Desolator> I'm interested in adding stable build support for openttd uptader, however, is there any place in which the last version is stored (on the web), as well as a nice way of getting the zip file?
20:43:16  <Ammler> Rubidium: Wolf01 the problem of this is if you would have that at northside at mountain
20:43:21  <Rubidium> Desolator: AFAIAA no and no
20:43:34  <Ammler> you can't reach the tile to build somthing anymore
20:44:00  <Rubidium> Ammler: but only for under and over foundations close together
20:44:06  <Desolator> for nightlies I get the current rev from the changelog, the latest rev from & the zip from:*****.zip
20:45:05  <Desolator> brb
20:46:11  <Desolator> back
20:47:25  <Ammler> other link to nightly rev: (whats the diff?)
20:47:32  <Rubidium> bruce89: in what manner?
20:47:49  <bruce89> no UI, just a second of music
20:47:51  <Ammler> hmm, date/time
20:48:02  <bruce89> and then a normal exit
20:48:57  <Desolator> I'm asking because I want to rewrite the updater to be cross-platform and want to make it for most stuff
20:49:30  <Ammler> Desolator: something to do with buildottd?
20:49:41  <Desolator> openttd updater
20:50:27  <Rubidium> bruce89: never heard of it (and it works fine for me)
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20:50:53  <bruce89> unmodified svn here, just snuffs it
20:51:05  *** dihedral [] has quit [Quit: gnight]
20:51:30  <Rubidium> bruce89: only a black screen is shown?
20:51:35  <Rubidium> or absolutely nothing?
20:51:36  <bruce89> no screen at all
20:52:15  <Rubidium> what video drivers does openttd -h list?
20:52:22  <glx> did it work before?
20:52:27  <bruce89> of course
20:52:44  <bruce89> null, dedicated
20:53:00  <Rubidium> so no sdl is compiled
20:53:05  <bruce89> oops
20:53:08  <bruce89> my mistake
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20:54:38  <bruce89> sorry, forgot to install libsdl1.2-dev
20:55:00  <glx> so not a bug :)
20:55:14  <bruce89> I feel like such an idiot, sorry about that
20:55:37  <glx> happens some times :)
20:55:39  <glx> np
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21:25:10  <Maarten> ugh... if my servers go down, its because a fiberline probably burned or something weird, I already lost internet twice yesterday, so far so good today thpough :)
21:30:10  <Phazorx> can someone who has euro on their keyboard please type it
21:30:21  <Phazorx> so i want have to search unicode pages for where it is
21:30:31  <glx> €
21:30:37  <Phazorx> thank you glx
21:31:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> this is so weird, my font does not have an € symbol...
21:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> it just shows blank
21:31:17  <Phazorx> not unicde font?
21:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> it does show chinese stuff
21:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> and russian stuff
21:32:06  <glx> I hope to have a full unicode font :)
21:32:15  <glx> (one day)
21:32:21  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: what os?
21:32:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> linux
21:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> it is hard to find the right font...
21:33:09  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: sounds like a font I could have made :P
21:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> so many criteria
21:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> it must be unicode
21:33:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> it must be monospace
21:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> it must have large font size
21:34:00  <Bjarni> why monospace?
21:34:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> it must have thick lines on those large font sizes
21:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: because of the ASCII art ;p
21:34:47  <Bjarni> ahh
21:35:01  <Bjarni> makes sense
21:35:19  <glx> still not found a nice unicode monospace font
21:35:29  <Bjarni> and you need large font sizes so you can make large ASCII art and look at even bigger ASCII boobies
21:37:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, i just don't want to sit 2cm from the screen to decipher the letters
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21:41:54  <ln-> how much does it cost to airlift an automobile from, say, finland to somewhere in southern europe?
21:45:26  <Sacro> just drive it
21:45:30  <Sacro> tis a nice days journey
21:46:43  <ln-> driving obviously takes time and money (fuel, accommodation)
21:46:48  <ln-> and besides i don't have a car
21:47:44  <TrueBrain> so why would you want to airlift it? :p
21:47:57  <ln-> and when one has driven 6000 kilometers (3729.024 miles), the motivation to drive around the destination may be significantly lowered.
21:48:11  <TrueBrain> ln-: rent a car there
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21:51:26  <ln-> that's of course the sensible thing to do, but i'd like to know what kind of price magnitude is it.
21:51:44  <TrueBrain> ah :) Well, let me know when you figure it out :)
21:52:38  <ln-> like... if it costs more than a new car, it doesn't make much sense.  if it costs something like 5000€, it could make sense in some situation.
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21:58:23  <SpComb> as opposed to renting?
21:59:04  <SpComb> if you're only there for a while, then you can just rent a car, if you're going to be there for a while, then you could just as well take the time to drive there
22:00:02  <ln-> time is money
22:01:15  <SpComb> a day or two compared to how long you'll spend there
22:01:30  <SpComb> airlifting a car will be prohibitively expensive and akward
22:02:02  *** Osai [] has joined #openttd
22:02:03  <SpComb> and it's not 6mm from finland to south europe
22:02:03  <ln-> that's the assumption, yes, but is that a fact?
22:02:54  *** sPooT [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:04:17  <ln-> ok, i can believe it would cost ridiculously much if it requires a separate flight, but the mass of a small car is barely 1% of a big cargo plane's capacity.
22:06:54  <TrueBrain> ln-: give me a city in Finland
22:07:04  <Bjarni> Turku
22:07:04  <SpComb> Helsinki
22:07:12  <TrueBrain> are either of you called ln-?
22:07:21  <SpComb> I'm almost called ln, and Bjarni has a @
22:07:35  <ln-> either of those cities will do. :)
22:07:45  <TrueBrain> ln-: first of, it costs 10% import taxes to airlift a car
22:07:56  <ln-> within schengen?
22:08:04  <TrueBrain> schengen?
22:08:15  <ln-> well, EU
22:08:20  <TrueBrain> to, say, France
22:08:21  <TrueBrain> yes
22:09:17  <Bjarni> believe it or not, but there are taxes within Schengen. Danes can't just go to Germany, buy a car and take to Denmark without paying customs
22:09:34  <TrueBrain> importing cars ALWAYS costs money
22:09:42  <Bjarni> cars are much cheaper in Germany due to the 180% tax on cars in Denmark
22:09:57  <ln-> Bjarni: but you can drive your car to germany and back without paying taxes, no?
22:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think you can surround import tolls if you state that it is your personal car and you are going to export it again
22:10:15  <TrueBrain> ln-: that is correct
22:10:23  <Bjarni> ln-: yeah
22:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> i remember we went through such a procedure when we took our music instruments to america a while back
22:10:53  <Bjarni> but somehow they can figure out if it's purchased recently... like when you try to get Danish license plates for it
22:11:02  <TrueBrain> ln-: nobody wants to give me a price without giving me my name :p
22:11:06  <TrueBrain> so I think that says enough :p
22:11:24  <Bjarni> you can try your luck with German plates in Denmark, but that's really bad if the police notice this as you aren't allowed to do so as a Dane
22:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> cars should always be registered at the living place
22:11:54  <Bjarni> yeah
22:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> at least if you stay there for more than 3 months
22:12:15  <TrueBrain> you can't buy a car in any EU country if you are not living in that same country
22:12:17  <TrueBrain> not just like that anyway
22:12:24  <ln-> something similar goes for finland; a finnish citizen living in finland is basically cannot legally drive a car with non-finnish plates in finland.
22:12:29  <Bjarni> it's unusual for Danes to move more than 4 times a year every year
22:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, only americans move that often :p
22:13:10  <ln-> TrueBrain: too bad, it remains a mystery then. :)
22:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> in europe, once you own a piece of land, you usually stay there for the rest of your life
22:13:23  <TrueBrain> ln-: without a valid stay-of-residence, I can't have a car with foreign plates here too (Netherlands)
22:13:45  <Bjarni> actually I once drove a car in Denmark that didn't have Danish license plates. It had Norwegian, but it was ok as the owner was also in the car. I wasn't allowed to take it for a drive on my own though
22:14:05  <TrueBrain> anyway, night all
22:14:19  <Bjarni> ln-: btw what are you trying to do?
22:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can probably get around such living place requirements, when it is a company owned car
22:14:24  <Bjarni> night TrueBrain
22:14:39  <Bjarni> ln-: buying a car in a cheap country?
22:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> then the location the company is registered in counts
22:15:02  <glx> buy a logan :)
22:15:10  <Bjarni> a logan???
22:15:24  <Bjarni> while you are at it, why not a Tesla Roadster?
22:15:26  <glx> dacia logan are the cheapest car here
22:15:26  <Wolf01> 'night
22:15:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> so if you work for a german company, and live in the netherlands, you can drive such a car
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22:16:14  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: I don't think that would work in Denmark unless you have to show up in Germany every day for work
22:16:30  <Bjarni> but some people do that if they live near the border
22:16:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: how would they prove that?
22:17:00  <Bjarni> they have to have an address that they have to show up on for work
22:17:40  <ln-> Bjarni: this is mostly theoretical calculation and comparison of airlift versus driving versus renting.
22:17:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: the cars are usually registered at the company headquarter, the workplace of the people is often somewhere completely different
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22:18:39  <Bjarni> I don't think that's allowed in Denmark to have an office in Denmark and cars for it that lacks Danish license plates
22:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: driving vs. renting depends on the time you stay there, airlift is just a rediculous idea in itself...
22:19:10  <Bjarni> even the embassies has Danish license plates. Those are fairly easy to spot though since they are blue
22:19:17  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: ok, let me rephrase: i'd like to know how ridiculous (in per cent, or so).
22:19:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: at least you often see this within germany
22:20:01  <Bjarni> maybe this is one of the reasons why Danish economy is doing better than the German (when scaled for country size)
22:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> economy does not scale with size...
22:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> especially if you do not specify which size...
22:20:46  <Bjarni> population
22:21:25  <Bjarni> wouldn't make sense to look at land area
22:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> just compare the economy of luxemburg with anyone else...
22:21:37  <Bjarni> because then Greenland would really stick out
22:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> these statistics are hardly ever meaningful
22:23:05  <Bjarni> well... how is the economy doing in Germany?
22:23:18  <Bjarni> it could be better, right?
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22:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> but this is the general rule... personal owned cars are registered at the same place that the persons living address is registered, and company owned cars are registered where the company (usually headquarter) is registered
22:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> if a not further specified big car factory is registered in Stuttgart, then every business car of that company is registered in Stuttgart, even if the employee who drives it goes nowhere in a 500km radius of Stuttgart between his workplace and his living place
22:26:59  <Bjarni> I'm not talking about distance. I'm talking about country boarders
22:27:38  <Bjarni> I think you can assign all your cars to your Danish headquarters if you like
22:28:05  <Bjarni> but you can't switch license plates to another country
22:28:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, country borders could make things different, because usually companies do not span borders itself, but rather have a subcompany registered in that country
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22:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> so if that car factory had another factory in denmark, that would be a danish company, and would have danish plates on their business cars, only on high management level it would be connected to the german main factory
22:29:27  <Bjarni> the main reason for this is that you pay fees on the license plates and those fees pays for road repairs so if you move your license to another country while you still use the Danish roads, then you wear on the roads without paying. The system tries to prevent this
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22:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> the system does not necessarily need to prevent this, just balance it out
22:31:17  <Bjarni> There is nothing like this for trains though so they are moved across boarders as needed. If you do an action where you have to pay (like renting tracks), you pay for where and how much you drive and they don't care if it's a Danish or German train as long as they get their money
22:31:54  <Bjarni> I like the rail system better, but it only works because everybody knows how much each train drives
22:32:22  <Bjarni> you can't do this to cars unless you place GPS in them and let the government read it at all times
22:32:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> for example a truck does around 1000 times more damage to roads than a car, so they put up a toll for trucks using the autobahn, which is payed even for foreign trucks
22:32:57  <Bjarni> I know
22:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> the real problem is, that they are already on the way to generalising that to all cars
22:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> which would have onboard units, to track the paths they go
22:33:44  <Bjarni> some Danish lorry company owner went to the politicians to get reduced tax because now he started to lose money in Germany and he wanted it to be evened out
22:33:53  <Bjarni> I don't think his plan worked
22:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> together with 6 months mandatory storing of all mobile phone connections together with the transmitter station which i was connected to...
22:35:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's 1984 all over again
22:35:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> Stasi 2.0
22:35:45  <Bjarni> in Denmark you can get cheap insurance if they are allowed to place a tracking device in your car. Every time you are speeding, you increase in insurance payment (sort of like an automated fine). Some people pick this because if they don't speed then it's a really good offer
22:38:30  <Bjarni> there is a difference between this and Stasi
22:39:36  <Bjarni> Stasi did it to protect their own ass. This is to protect society
22:41:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> stasi also wanted to "protect" the "society"
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22:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think it's a really dangerous road to take... if they already start like this now, there might not be a lot of "society" left to protect in ~50 years
22:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> but of course politicians don't think further than the next election
22:44:02  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: let me put this in another way. Say there is a road with a speed limit of 80 km/h. Often some people drive more than 150 km/h and this is likely to kill random people. Are you willing to keep track of speeding cars on that road?
22:46:03  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: are you going to keep track of all the cars on the road to find the speeding cars or are you going to let them continue their deadly race and kill random people?
22:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: let me rephrase that: are you rather willing to risk that a random youth guy kills himself while driving 200km/h on a straight road and looses control, or that your future employee that you are applying to can get to know when and how often you cheated on your wife?
22:47:24  <Bjarni> 1: naturally you don't cheat on your wife
22:47:44  <Bjarni> 2: how should your future boss know (how should he get the info)?
22:48:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, right... "when you are innocent, you have nothing to hide anyway"
22:48:09  <Bjarni> yeah
22:48:28  <ln-> Bjarni: information can be bought, or searched with google.
22:48:44  *** Ammler [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:48:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> ... or hacked, or forced to be open per law...
22:49:01  <Bjarni> hopefully the system should prevent this from happening
22:49:13  <ln-> how?
22:49:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah... "should"...
22:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> "nobody has the intention to build a wall"
22:49:26  <Bjarni> 1: don't connect the database to the internet
22:49:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> we all know how that phrase turned out
22:49:57  <Bjarni> that's basically the most secure way of prevent a database from hackers on the net
22:50:03  <ln-> the technology hopefully is not the weak link, but the people using it.
22:50:13  <Bjarni> that's the next issue
22:51:05  <Bjarni> we should punish lawbreakers when we find them instead of sending them to the jails we have today... some of them are kind of like hotels
22:51:14  <Bjarni> and they should stay there
22:51:44  <Bjarni> this will partly solve the problem. If the gain is not worth the risk then the problem is reduced a lot
22:52:29  <Bjarni> also how do you read the data... what if the staff can't access individual people to track them?
22:53:00  <ln-> in order to be punished, one should first get caught.
22:53:07  <Bjarni> like if it is based on what cars are on a road instead of "where is this car"?
22:53:15  <ln-> and at that point the leak has already happened.
22:54:28  <Bjarni> why do I feel like you guys tries to hide your whereabouts?
22:56:06  <ln-> Bjarni: clearly someone will have the access to make any kind of queries he wants.
22:56:12  <Bjarni> you know, in a train today, the position is recorded with GPS. Changes in location calculates the speed. The record also shows who is on board. All this is logged and can be read at a later date (usually only looked at in case of accidents). Is this a problem?
22:56:22  <Bjarni> oh, all radio communication is also logged
22:56:39  <ln-> what record?
22:56:57  <Bjarni> the railroad has some central record where all trains are logged
22:57:16  <ln-> do your trains have passenger manifests?
22:57:28  <Bjarni> usually not
22:57:57  <Bjarni> but I'm talking about the crew
22:58:09  <Bjarni> they are always logged who they are
22:59:00  <Bjarni> in fact if the driver goes to the bathroom or something and will not miss out on radio calls while he is away from the engine, the GPS will track his movement to the bathroom and it will later be visible if he were walking or running toward it
22:59:16  <Bjarni> this is how it is now. Do you consider this to be a problem?
22:59:17  <ln-> but if one chooses to skip their day at work, you don't know their location anymore.
22:59:22  <Bjarni> nobody bothers to look at this data
22:59:48  <Bjarni> naturally if they aren't at work, they can't be tracked
22:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> a company keeping track of its employees at work is a whole other issue than a state keeping track of its citizens no matter when
23:00:15  <Bjarni> since they are tracked from when they start the train until they stop it
23:00:40  <Bjarni> but it's not (only) the railroad company keeping track
23:01:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, but the railroad company cannot keep track of you once you leave the railroad
23:01:22  <Bjarni> parts of this is mandatory documentation to show the government. Usually they are the only ones looking at it
23:01:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> so, and who is "the government", and what is "usually"?
23:01:56  <Bjarni> and they only bother if the train derails or something. Then they want to know if anybody mentioned the bad tracks on the radio and how fast the train drove
23:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> the railroad surveillence department, sure
23:02:30  <ln-> if you go to work to your office in the morning, and leave it in the afternoon, and others have seen you, you have been "tracked" and your location during that day is known.
23:02:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> criminal investigation?
23:02:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> terror defence?
23:02:39  <Bjarni> government is the "unit" that ensures that railroad safety is ok. Kind of like how police acts on the roads
23:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> intelligence agencies?
23:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> once one intelligence agency has access to this kind of data, all intelligence agencies all over the world have access to it
23:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> do they also count as "the government"?
23:03:54  <Bjarni> and "usually" as I presume that the railroad keeps track of how the individual trains acts when they are delayed and stuff
23:03:55  <ln-> Bjarni: what do you think about the claim: if data is available, it will be abused (because of curiosity or money, or whatever) sooner or later, be it legal or not?
23:05:04  <ln-> especially if the risk of getting caught is minimal.
23:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> what do you say when your (tourist-) visum to USA is rejected because they found out you showed up late at work often?
23:05:14  *** G [~njones@] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
23:05:14  <ln-> (visum -> visa)
23:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> visum is the singular of visa
23:05:42  <ln-> but it's not english
23:05:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> at least in "real" languages ;)
23:06:07  <ln-> well, yes, you know what happens when you mix up german, french and swedish.
23:06:13  <Bjarni> why would they reject you based on something like that?
23:06:28  <ln-> why the hell not?
23:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> because they state that you could support terroristic activity in that time?
23:06:45  <Bjarni> then they might as well reject you for being too tall
23:06:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> or just that they can prove rebellious character of yours?
23:07:18  *** G [~njones@] has joined #openttd
23:07:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you disobey one rule, why should they expect you to obey other rules?
23:07:50  <ln-> i heard of a case, where a finnish woman in her 20's had applied for a 3-month-or-so visa to the US in order to visit her sister's family and travel around the states... and she got the visa, too.
23:08:12  <Bjarni> so basically we should have no traffic control because then you fear to be mistaken as terrorists?
23:08:38  <ln-> ... at JFK, the officials decided she's likely to stay in the states after the visa expires, as an illegal immigrant, so she was handcuffed and returned to the Finnair plane.
23:10:09  <Bjarni> well... in Russia she would have been jailed by FSB even if she had approved papers from FSB
23:11:54  <ln-> i haven't heard of any even remotely similar cases with Russian authorities
23:12:08  <Bjarni> I have heard of one
23:13:55  <Bjarni> a non-Russian business man taking a one day trip from one part of the country to another with the proper papers from the local FSB office (FSB tracks everybody there... just like KGB did) and on arrival he was arrested while they checked his papers and while they could see that they were not faked, they disagreed with the order and kept him for a week
23:14:02  <Sacro> ahh Bjarni
23:14:14  <ln-> was that before or after the russian revolution of 1917?
23:14:26  <Bjarni> it was in 2002 or something
23:15:04  <ln-> 02:03 < ln-> Bjarni: what do you think about the claim: if data is available, it will be abused (because of curiosity  or money, or whatever) sooner or later, be it legal or not?
23:15:54  <Bjarni> Sacro: do you feel that security cameras are there to record you to be used against you at a later date like when you are trying to get a job?
23:16:05  <Bjarni> I bet Sacro is recorded every single day
23:16:18  <Bjarni> well, except on weekends where he stays at home
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23:16:25  <Sacro> Bjarni: security cameras don't bother me
23:16:31  <Sacro> i don't lead a very interesting life
23:16:50  <Sacro> the one person whose more sad than me is the guy who sits and watches what i do
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23:18:10  <Bjarni> Sacro: how would you feel if you had a car and the government could track this car. They will use this info for road pricing and speeding tickets (kind of like how the cameras are used)?
23:18:28  <Sacro> i can't stand the idea of pay per mile
23:18:37  <Sacro> sometimes i just like to get on my motorbike and head off down a road
23:18:59  <Bjarni> well.. that's one way to put it
23:19:08  <Sacro> i already pay fuel tax
23:19:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm sure there would be "flatrate" offers, but that is not the point
23:19:17  <Sacro> our country has the cheapest fuel in the EU (pre tax)
23:19:33  <Sacro> our country has the most expensive fuel in the EU (post tax)
23:19:35  <ln-> Sacro: see, you don't fight in iraq for nothing
23:20:36  <Bjarni> Sacro: forget about the issue about paying per mile... the issue we are talking about is the possibility of other people to track your movement. How would you feel about this?
23:20:48  <Sacro> Bjarni: it depends
23:20:59  <Sacro> if i'm just aimlessly driving around then it's fine
23:21:05  <Sacro> but sometimes I just want some alone time
23:21:08  <Bjarni> the data is secured like the data recorded with video today
23:21:55  <Bjarni> so if anybody decides to look at it, they have to have access clearance and it will be logged so it's not something people do without any reason
23:22:09  <glx> here we have automatic speed control, but we learnt today that most of them are not correctly installed
23:23:07  <glx> so they can tell you were driving at 96km/h when you were at 88km/h
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23:23:23  <Bjarni> we have a piece of road where the police can't measure speed (limited space next to the road) and the politicians banned camera speed control, so those guys who wants to drive really fast go there and drive 200+ km/h
23:23:49  <Bjarni> because you can't get caught
23:24:12  <Bjarni> it goes without saying that it's a place with frequent major accidents
23:24:45  <glx> you can't stop stupid people to be stupid
23:25:07  <Bjarni> but you can catch them and try to prevent them from doing it over and over
23:25:31  <Bjarni> <Sacro> but sometimes I just want some alone time <-- and you think you can get that with the cameras, but not with a tracking device?
23:26:10  *** Frostregen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:26:19  <ln-> Bjarni: speed measurement does not require cameras or radars.
23:26:30  *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
23:26:56  <Bjarni> then how will you do it?
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23:27:23  <Sacro> why do you want to stop stupid people?
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23:27:38  <glx> because they can kill you
23:27:40  <Sacro> darwin tells us that sooner or later they will evolve themselves out
23:27:43  <Bjarni> the idea is to prevent them from killing random people
23:28:00  <ln-> Bjarni: x = v*t
23:28:24  <ln-> solve t
23:28:31  <Bjarni> ln-: yeah, but how do you plan on doing this? You need to get the info somehow
23:29:12  <glx> induction loop could be used for that
23:29:31  <ln-> Bjarni: you place one policeman with a radio at x[0]. he reports the plate numbers to the patrol at x[0]+2km.
23:29:44  <Bjarni> the issue is that if the police uses this, then they have to have one guy keeping track of a car and measure the time between two known spots (hence x and t) and to do this they need to be in a helicopter
23:30:24  <Bjarni> I don't think the law allows for two police officers to work together like this
23:30:32  <ln-> i don't see a helicopter anywhere in "x = v*t"
23:30:39  <glx> and if you see the first you slow down
23:31:05  <Bjarni> you see it feels like the laws the police can use to catch speeding cars are made by politicians who don't want to get caught
23:31:07  <glx> but can be a solution to force people to slow down
23:31:08  <ln-> glx: he doesn't need to be particularly visible.
23:31:21  <glx> ln-: that's illegal here
23:31:31  <glx> they must be visible
23:31:39  <Bjarni> we know for a fact that the minister (former government) was caught driving 18x km/h where the limit was 110 km/h
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23:32:00  <glx> wasn't his driver?
23:32:13  <Bjarni> so not surprisingly he never really gave the police permission to automatically track cars
23:32:18  <Bjarni> he was his own driver at the time
23:32:24  <ln-> glx: well i don't mean like hiding in the bushes, but rather sitting in a (civilian-looking) car. is that illegal too?
23:32:25  <Bjarni> off hours
23:32:29  <Bjarni> during the weekend
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23:33:26  <glx> they must be in uniform
23:33:34  <Bjarni> the police don't have to be visible here but they aren't allowed to measure speed unless they have a man on the location dedicated to measure speed
23:33:54  <ln-> glx: uniform is fine.
23:34:38  <Bjarni> so it's ok to set up a camera that takes pictures of all speeding cars as long as it has a police officer next to it looking at it
23:34:58  <Bjarni> in theory it will do the very same task if he leaves, but then it's not valid reason to fine the drivers anymore
23:35:00  <glx> and usually the first measure speed and tell the second to stop you if you were driving too fast
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23:35:27  <ln-> i was just about to ask Bjarni whether their cops don't have a second patrol handling the stopping.
23:35:56  <Bjarni> they can tell another patrol to actually stop the car if they like
23:36:43  <Bjarni> they often do that, but then they have to be like 4 people or so working on this particular task... they don't have the staff to do that often enough
23:37:41  <Bjarni> I like the Dutch solution where all license plates are memorised at certain spots and since the system knows the distance it can calculate the speed and fine the drivers if needed
23:37:51  <Bjarni> the politicians here don't want it :s
23:39:52  <glx> <-- we have these nice boxes
23:40:07  <Sacro>,1518,512897,00.html
23:40:14  <Sacro> strange german pensioners
23:40:32  <glx> most of them gives incorrect speeds as a recent report said
23:41:11  <glx> because positionning angle has not been verified carefully
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23:42:15  <Bjarni> oh speaking of fines... some German tourist parked illegally and blocked the access road for a firetruck. The firetruck then pushed it away and moved on. The police showed up and found the owner looking at his car. One of the officers walked up to him and said "this isn't good... we need to know who you are and where you live". He then gave all the info they asked for and then they said "now you will get a parking fine and a bill fo
23:42:15  <Bjarni> r fixing the firetruck with the mail and you have 24 hours to get your car moved away or you will be fined for dumping a wrecked car as well"... then he got mighty upset
23:42:52  <Bjarni> but hey.... he blocked the accessway to a burning building so the firetruck had no choice and it was clearly signed... he should have known better :P
23:44:24  <Bjarni> Sacro: "the pensioner had been trying to get to a cemetery" <--- that can be read in more than one way :P
23:44:31  <Sacro> Bjarni: heh
23:44:41  <Sacro> doing 3mph on an autobahn is a good way
23:47:10  <Bjarni> we once had to get from A to B at school (part of gym) and we should do it on our own (we each had a map). One guy decided to take a shortcut and crossed the freeway on foot.... in front of a police car. Those officers were so kind to him that they drove him the last way (he clearly didn't want to walk more than absolutely needed) and they had a little chat with the teacher
23:47:26  <Bjarni> he was 16 at the time
23:47:35  <Bjarni> I think
23:47:47  <Bjarni> maybe 17
23:49:16  <Bjarni> <Sacro> doing 3mph on an autobahn is a good way <-- going against the traffic is another good way
23:49:34  <ln-> Bjarni: does the goverment surveillance camera in your bedroom bother you?
23:50:02  <Bjarni> like they would be interested in the amount of action that doesn't take place there :P
23:50:35  <ln-> but, well, if everyone had one in their bedroom.
23:50:40  <Bjarni> there is a difference between being at home and outside home
23:51:00  <Bjarni> I see no logical reason for the government to be a peeping Tom
23:51:14  <Sacro> actually
23:51:30  <Sacro> i'd work for the government if i could perve on the girls next door
23:51:38  <Bjarni> good point
23:51:59  <ln-> Bjarni: that could help preventing crimes, e.g. rapes and interaction with minors taking place in people's bedrooms.
23:52:15  <Bjarni> but how would you justify that as a crime preventing issue?
23:53:00  <Bjarni> ln- has a point
23:53:10  <Bjarni> but then we would need to put up cameras everywhere
23:53:18  <Bjarni> secret basements included
23:54:26  <Bjarni> but... the cost/security gained radio might not be high
23:54:37  <Bjarni> it would be better to secure the roads
23:54:46  <Bjarni> specially if it's combined with road pricing
23:56:00  <Bjarni> actually... I fail to see the link between speed control on roads and recording people's bedrooms
23:56:15  <ln-> Bjarni: well the FBI put hundreds of millions of dollars on a new, computerized case file system, and eventually had to abandon the system before it was even taken into use.
23:56:26  <Bjarni> if you want to do something that nobody else should know about, do it at home
23:57:00  <Bjarni> so?
23:57:08  <Bjarni> I fail to see the connection
23:57:12  <ln-> so money is not an issue when there's a lot of it.
23:57:22  <Bjarni> money is always an issue
23:57:35  <Bjarni> somebody screws up once in a while
23:57:42  <Bjarni> that's not the same as money isn't an issue
23:58:03  <Bjarni> ln-: do you want a 0 ice cream
23:58:14  <Bjarni> it's just like a normal one, except it costs 0
23:58:28  <Bjarni> you just claimed money not to be an issue :P
23:58:45  <ln-> _when there's a lot of it_.
23:59:34  <Bjarni> basically you are saying that you don't want the police to be able to track speeding cars if we don't record all bedrooms as well?
23:59:51  <Bjarni> that sounds like the mafia

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