Log for #openttd on 13th November 2007:
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00:05:43  <SmatZ> skidd13: so I merged 2 functions and one macro into one, and this is the result:
00:05:51  <SmatZ> original 0m42.990s
00:06:14  <SmatZ> "alternative 32bit function" 0m41.790s
00:06:30  <SmatZ> "clean version" 0m41.820s
00:06:39  <SmatZ> names taken from
00:07:06  <SmatZ> the reason why current trunk is slower may be that it cannot inline FindFirstBit
00:09:20  <skidd13> And the lookup version?
00:11:09  <SmatZ> didn't test it...
00:11:40  <skidd13> What about 2 versions a FindFirstBit6(const uint8 x) which uses the lookup table and a FindFirstBit32(uint32 x) wich uses the alternative code?
00:12:50  <skidd13> So the FindFirstBit2x64 could be killed by the FindFirstBit32. Cause it seems to be faster or at least equal to the current trunk
00:13:43  <SmatZ> the difference is so little...
00:14:06  <skidd13> But less code ;)
00:14:31  <skidd13> :%s /less/less doubled/g
00:15:25  <SmatZ> yes
00:16:27  <skidd13> The clean is the modularest, but the convergence of the alternative is better. :( Hard to decide
00:17:00  <skidd13> Maybe keep the ideas as comments in the code ;)
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00:18:16  <skidd13> damn it's late... good night
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00:20:23  <SmatZ> skidd13: lookup version 0m43.550s
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00:40:04  <SacroIsSorry> I'm sorry
00:40:12  <SacroIsSorry> no more pasting crap
00:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> err... circumventing a ban is not quite the fine english way either...
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00:45:01  <SacroIsSorry> fine, I'll do the british thing and go have a cup of tea
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00:52:56  <fjb> Hm, it's 6 years into the game and most ECS second level industries are gone. :-(
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00:59:47  <glx> fjb: you should have at least 1 of each
01:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: if i understood things correctly, there is like a 5 year protection period
01:04:16  <Eddi|zuHause> if you did not service the industry until then, it will likely close
01:05:01  <fjb> Yes, one of each, but that is not much that early in the game when you can not connect them because they are too far away.
01:05:19  <glx> you have 5 years to start to use them
01:07:03  <fjb> 5 years are not much. I had to make some money first. It's not that easy at the start of the game (if you don't play with everything set to easy).
01:07:34  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it was designed for TTDPatch, which does not have huge maps
01:08:41  <fjb> I wouldn't mind if new industries would appear more often to replace the closed ones.
01:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> oh that makes me think of the good old times...
01:08:56  <Eddi|zuHause> where i thought that 5 tile trains were huge
01:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and most of my trains were 3 tiles
01:09:53  <fjb> :-) I don't like trains that short. It's plain unrealistic on the main lines.
01:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with long trains is that you need long stations as well
01:10:41  <fjb> And ships do appear now for the first time, so I couln'd get the fish earlier. Maybe by airship, but that was too expensive.
01:10:48  <Eddi|zuHause> without diagonal and bendy stations that is quite difficult
01:11:11  <fjb> A bit difficult in the mountains, I admit.
01:12:08  <fjb> Routng restrictions would help, so you could easier send long trains to long platforms.
01:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause> YAPF does handle that
01:12:25  <fjb> Maybe we get diagonal stations one time.
01:12:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it gives penalty for too long or too short platforms
01:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> so trains choose the platform that fits best
01:13:29  <fjb> Oh, I never tried it. That sounds intelligent. But does it also send small trains to short platforms? Else they would block the long platforms.
01:13:44  <fjb> That is clever.
01:14:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can tweak the settings to fit your needs best
01:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (more complex station entrances might need higher settings to counter the rerouting penalty)
01:14:47  <fjb> Now we need only station tiles that give priorities to different freights.
01:28:54  <Gonozal_VIII> could a grf do that?
01:30:51  <fjb> I don't think so.
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01:33:57  <fjb> Hm, I haven't done C++ for a long time.
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02:04:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: i have never known about a grf way to influence YAPF penalties
02:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> but that does not mean it could not be specified
02:05:25  <Gonozal_VIII> me neither but i don't know much about grfs and what they can do
02:06:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> damn, civ4 always crashes at the same point
02:08:14  <Gonozal_VIII> which point?
02:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> somewhere far into the game...
02:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> somewhere between my savegame and the beginning of the next round
02:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> and it was such a great savegame...
02:10:06  <Gonozal_VIII> the ai always ends up destroying the planet...
02:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> i didn't get to the nuclear war yet...
02:10:54  <Gonozal_VIII> one city challange on a huge map without water...
02:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> last game i won with cultural victory
02:11:49  <Gonozal_VIII> they threw like 20 nukes each per turn...
02:12:00  <Belugas> [21:06] <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: i have never known about a grf way to influence YAPF penalties  <--- does not exists yet
02:12:11  <Belugas> would be ottd specific
02:12:21  <Belugas> i doubt it would be usefull,
02:12:21  <Gonozal_VIII> the game didn't last long after manhattan project
02:12:29  <Belugas> since yo can change values via config
02:12:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> this time i am quite advanced in technology and size, and was just preparing to attack some of the minor civilisations on the other continents
02:13:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> Belugas: well, the main point here would be (newgrf) station tiles which give penalties for different kinds of cargo
02:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> like if i build a coal station it penalises anything else
02:14:39  <Gonozal_VIII> or negative penalty for coal...
02:14:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> or a passenger station penalises goods
02:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: there cannot be any negative penalties
02:14:55  <Belugas> good point, worth considering
02:15:02  <Gonozal_VIII> ok...
02:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> Belugas: the YAPF implementation would then be OTTD specific, and TTDP could figure out its own way to obey to these preference rules
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02:19:21  <Belugas> i really doubt ttdp could do anything with those values.  they do not have yapf, and i'm not sure if they have played with the pathfinding
02:20:57  <Gonozal_VIII> so
02:20:58  <Gonozal_VIII> ?
02:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> it does not need to have anything to do with yapf values... more like "prefer cargo: X,Y; neutral cargo: A,B,C; unwanted cargo: U,V"
02:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> and then in the config you have "yapf_station_prefer=10, yapf_station_neutral=100, yapf_station_unwanted=1000" or similar
02:26:37  <Belugas> so...those numbers are only good for us, not for them.  That does not mean we should not have our onw specs, it  just means they would not be usefull for them...
02:27:27  <Belugas> but if ever they use the properties required, it has to be within the context it was designed for, otherwise, it willbe a ball of confusion
02:27:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, the actual numbers should still be changeable through the config
02:27:54  <Belugas> no.  if it comes from a grf, it will have to superseed the config
02:28:00  <Belugas> otherwise, it's useless
02:28:12  <Belugas> grf represent the view of an author
02:28:13  <Gonozal_VIII> wanted, neutral, unwanted can be used in different ways
02:28:28  <Belugas> ?
02:28:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> as the meaningfulness of the yapf penalties heavily depends on the persons building style, it should really be a per-user setting
02:29:05  <Gonozal_VIII> [03:21:12] Eddi|zuHause2: it does not need to have anything to do with yapf values... more like "prefer cargo: X,Y; neutral cargo: A,B,C; unwanted cargo: U,V" <-- that sounds good
02:30:18  <Belugas> [21:30] <Eddi|zuHause2> as the meaningfulness of the yapf penalties heavily depends on the persons building style, it should really be a per-user setting  <--- then why specify it with grf???
02:30:20  <Gonozal_VIII> here it can be handled with the yapf penalties, patch could use it in any other way they wan
02:30:22  <Gonozal_VIII> t
02:30:47  <Gonozal_VIII> not actual numbers in the grf, only types of cargo
02:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> Belugas: the grf only specifies which cargo to prefer, the config specifies how much influence the preference has
02:31:16  <Gonozal_VIII> can't change that in the config
02:32:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> a small station with big detours at the entrance might need very big penalties per tile
02:32:39  <Belugas> i thugh you guys were talking about yapf penalties defined by grf
02:33:10  <Gonozal_VIII> it only defines that there is a penalty not how high it is
02:33:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> i was responding to this:
02:33:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> [2007-11-13 02:14] <fjb> Now we need only station tiles that give priorities to different freights.
02:33:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> [2007-11-13 02:28] <Gonozal_VIII> could a grf do that?
02:34:09  <Belugas> you drive me nuts
02:34:15  * Belugas hides
02:34:18  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
02:34:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> and my suggestion was: let the grf specify quality, and let the config specify quantity
02:35:12  <Gonozal_VIII> which is a very good way imho
02:37:29  * Belugas disagrees
02:37:34  <Gonozal_VIII> why?
02:37:35  <Belugas> it's all or nothing
02:37:45  <Gonozal_VIII> all or nothing?
02:37:47  <Belugas> otherwise, it's pretty much a hack
02:38:07  <Belugas> like... specify the penality, not just that it shoudl have penalty
02:38:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> it does really not make a lot of sense to specify yapf penalties per grf, because the yapf penalties were always intended as a per-user setting, not a per-game setting
02:38:15  <Gonozal_VIII> it would be the same as all the other yapf penalties
02:38:57  <Belugas> then, yo do not need yapf specifying that there shold be a penalty via grf
02:38:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> different users may use different yapf penalties depending on their building style
02:39:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> well you need some way to specify that a certain platform was intended for goods dropoff, and another for passenger pickup
02:39:45  *** DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan
02:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> within the same station
02:40:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> and my idea that this would be best served by the newgrf station specification
02:40:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> a person designing a passenger station graphic might as well specify that passenger is the preferred cargo
02:41:35  <Gonozal_VIII> and coal for example as unwanted... whatever the grf designer wants
02:41:52  <DaleStan> Why can't you add signal restrictions, and then trust the users to apply the proper restrictions to the signals instead?
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02:42:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> because! :p
02:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think this would be much easier
02:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> because it would work completely automatic, without user interaction
02:43:32  <Belugas> where is the fun of playing then?
02:43:42  <DaleStan> Easier for whom? And aren't you going to have to add signal restrictions anyway?
02:44:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, this has nothing to do with signals... the infrastructure for pathfinder penalties is already there, just have to add another case
02:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> and if i throw in the evil r-word now, people will get mad
02:45:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> Belugas: the player still has fun in designing station layouts
02:46:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> just that now his coal trains will actually go to the coal platform, and the wood trains will take the wood platform
02:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> instead of a random mix
02:49:05  <Belugas> why not use waypoints?
02:49:16  <Belugas> just mark the entrances
02:49:42  <Gonozal_VIII> waypoints are not flexible
02:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, that uses additional space
02:49:53  <Gonozal_VIII> trains have to take the waypoint...
02:50:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> note that YAPF penalties do not prevent the coal train from taking the wood platform, if the coal platform is already taken
02:50:47  <Belugas> yup, so either way, you're not any better
02:51:24  <Gonozal_VIII> but that's exactly what i would want the trains to do
02:51:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> but you do know the difference between "preference" and "restriction"
02:52:56  <Gonozal_VIII> prefer the platform of the right type but take a neutral one, if the best is already taken... waypoints don't do that
02:53:46  <Gonozal_VIII> the station could consist of some wood platforms, some default and some passenger platforms for example
02:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> exactly... if the coal platform is taken, try to take a general goods platform, but avoid the passenger platform as much as possible
02:54:57  <DaleStan> <Gonozal_VIII> prefer the platform of the right type but take a neutral one, if the best is already taken... waypoints don't do that <-- But restrictions, properly used, can.
02:55:11  <DaleStan> And won
02:55:35  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause2: but to achieve that, you will have to define a new yapf setting, since the only one that actually exists is for the whole station
02:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i go to bed
02:55:45  <Belugas> plus, the notion of platform does not exists
02:55:47  <DaleStan> And won't messing with the station penalties mess with the chance of a passenger train going around the station instead of through a passenger setting.
02:56:08  <DaleStan> s/setting/station/
02:56:19  <Belugas> yeah
02:56:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> Belugas: it does, YAPF determines platform length, and gives different penalties depending on it
02:56:41  <Gonozal_VIII> neutral penalty is the same as the old station penalty
02:57:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> DaleStan: trains already try to avoid station tiles that they are not scheduled to go to
02:57:13  <Belugas> you are righ, haven't looked low enough
02:57:24  <DaleStan> But changing the YAPF penalties will change how hard they try to avoid them, right?
02:57:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> DaleStan: yes, that is exactly the point ;)
02:57:53  <DaleStan> Possibly to the point that they no longer avoid them when they still should.
02:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> not if you adjust the penalties accordingly
02:59:06  <DaleStan> And what percentage of the users have ever manually edited openttd.cfg?
02:59:33  <Gonozal_VIII> you don't need to if you have a good default value
02:59:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> DaleStan: and what percentage of the other users actually depend on these settings?
03:00:28  <DaleStan> If you're relying on the default being good, why is it in the config at all?
03:01:12  <Gonozal_VIII> because advanced players can adjust it so that their complicated stations and natworks work the best way possible
03:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> DaleStan: it was KUDr's design choice to have all penalties modifyable
03:01:33  <Gonozal_VIII> -a+e
03:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> e.g. i recently needed to adjust the value for using depot as turning point, because it was lower than the station penalty for long stations
03:03:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> so instead of passing through the station, the trains were going through a far off depot, clogging a totally underdimensioned line
03:04:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> like i previously said, for certain building styles, the default values loose their sense
03:04:29  <Belugas> amd what if the highly hypothetical grf yapf setting was more a multiplier? in would make more sens to me
03:05:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> that could work, too... but my idea sounded cleaner...
03:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> and i was going to bed...
03:06:13  <Gonozal_VIII> i also think that would be cleaner... and good night
03:07:05  <Belugas> i don't get the point of specifying that said platform is yapf penaltisable without anythin more, since the rest is already specified in the conmfig
03:07:09  <Belugas> that is non sens
03:09:15  <Gonozal_VIII> vehicles also data about what they are refittable to and the specification of the goods is stored elsewhere
03:09:21  <Gonozal_VIII> +have
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03:11:14  <Belugas> that is so not relevant...
03:11:49  <Belugas> i was more thinking to the same system that is used for costs
03:11:57  <Belugas> grf costs are just multipliers
03:12:03  <Belugas> as simple as that
03:13:44  <Gonozal_VIII> would mean more new data in the grf
03:13:54  <Belugas> so?
03:14:03  <Gonozal_VIII> not needed
03:16:03  <Belugas> [21:06] <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: i have never known about a grf way to influence YAPF penalties <--- and how, otherwise, are you going to achieve this?
03:17:14  <Gonozal_VIII> i didn't say that, but i dont have any idea about the code so...
03:18:09  <Belugas> so don't tell me "[22:16] <Gonozal_VIII> not needed"
03:18:58  <Gonozal_VIII> well if it's stored in one place you don't have to store it everywhere in the grf
03:19:09  <Gonozal_VIII> and the user could modify it
03:19:21  <Belugas> then, forget the grf, it is not waht you are looking for
03:20:05  <Gonozal_VIII> it has to provide information which freight type the station is for
03:33:32  <Gonozal_VIII> going to sleep now.. sleeping is important for humans...
03:34:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11426 /trunk/src/tree_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Just one boolean inversion instead of two
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07:25:45  <skidd13> SmatZ: I think I got the faster allgorithm :) But somewhere there's a little mistake in it :(
07:26:07  <skidd13> @seen SmatZ
07:26:07  <DorpsGek> skidd13: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 7 hours, 5 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <SmatZ> skidd13: lookup version 0m43.550s
07:26:30  <skidd13> Hope he'll get it then!
07:26:30  <skidd13> SmatZ: I think I got the faster allgorithm :) But somewhere there's a little mistake in it :(
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08:48:30  <Sacro> morning
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09:56:21  <dihedral> hello
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10:00:48  <skidd13_WORK> Hi
10:02:04  <dihedral> hello skidd
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14:11:38  <fjb> Moin
14:12:37  <SpComb> hmm...'s going down for maintenance
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14:14:03  * SpComb hopes the box boots up after a new kernel installation and mdadm configuration madness
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14:14:41  <SpComb> one of the hard drives in the RAID array (or the fan - hard to tell) is making an evil rattling noise, and smartctl thinks that the drives don't support SMART anymore
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14:15:46  <fjb> Oh, oh...
14:19:45  <SpComb> bah, I thought it had failed to boot up as it wasn't pinging, so I detached my second monitor (all neatly velcro cable-tied up to every other cable in the system), plugged it in to the server and the UPS under the bed, and turns out it's just fscking 750GB of data
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14:20:39  <fjb> :-)
14:21:03  <fjb> Hope the fscking will succeed.
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14:23:41  <SpComb> it did
14:23:51  * SpComb shuts it down again, as well as qmsk, to plug in the UPS data cable
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14:38:34  <SpComb> huh, I found SMART was disabled in the BIOS, so I enabled it... still doesn't work :(
14:44:08  <fjb> Hm, did it work before?
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14:49:56  <SpComb> yes, it did
14:50:58  <Tefad> clock set?
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14:56:17  <SpComb> BATTDATE : 07/30/02
14:56:33  <SpComb> this thing was supposed to have new batteries in it when I bought it last summer (2006) :/
14:56:45  <SpComb> that looks like m/d/y
14:56:59  <SpComb> which would indicate the batteries being five years old
14:57:34  <SpComb> I guess you can't expect everything when you buy a 3kVA ups on eBay for 280 euros
14:58:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> this is exactly why "all number" dates are bad
14:58:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> because there is no indication what is the order...
14:59:04  <SpComb> well, it might be y/d/m, in which case APC's service ninjas sneaked into our server room some time last winter and replaced the batteries
14:59:38  <SpComb> I think it's more likely that the "refurbished" UPS that I was sold with "new batteries" actually contained the same old batteries that it always had
14:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> y/d/m is never a valid date format anyway...
15:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> and the only useful date formats are d/m/y or y/m/d
15:01:29  * SpComb tests by unplugging the UPS
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15:02:23  <fjb> There are ISO dates, like 2007-11-13.
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15:04:40  * SpComb has a server, a desktop, two monitors, his speakers, joystick, and desk light plugged into this UPS
15:04:43  <LeviathNL> is there a wawy to use the ECS Town vector and PBI together? ECS disables all cargos. and PBI only "enables" lumber, fuel oil and plastic
15:04:48  <SpComb> ~70 minutes runtime :P
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15:06:14  <dihedral>
15:06:20  <dihedral> ^ pertty interesting :-)
15:07:21  <dihedral> sim city made open source
15:12:08  <fjb> Really interesting.
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15:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> LeviathNL: i don't think they were ever designed to work together
15:17:01  <LeviathNL> setting parameter 1 of ECS to 1 fixed it
15:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> similarly you can't mix DBSet and UKRS
15:17:35  <LeviathNL> ECS Town wiki : parameter 1	Disable (0, default) / Enable (1) default cargoes
15:24:15  <Unknown_Entity> can someone tell me where the number 6144 in viewport.cpp:1524 comes from? ParentSpriteToDraw *parent_list[6144];
15:27:52  * Belugas has no idea at all
15:32:36  <frosch123> Unknown_Entity: Because CS thought 6144 parent sprites are enough.
15:33:59  <frosch123> and perhaps the array was 64k somewhen.
15:36:02  <Unknown_Entity> frosch123: ok, so no apparent reason. :) thanks
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15:37:51  <Belugas> could very well be, frosch123
15:41:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11427 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix: Forgot to Truncate the string "Many Random Industries" in the funding industry window. In some languages, it gets drawn outside of the gui.
15:43:35  <frosch123> Hmm, I just checked OTTD 0.1. So CS thought 750 parent sprites were enough. Don't know who increased it zo 6144...
15:44:51  <dihedral> frosch123: svn blame?
15:45:11  <Unknown_Entity> frosch123: thanks. i might set it back to 750 here. i'm running short on memory anyway
15:45:22  <dihedral> ?
15:46:00  <dihedral> btw - while i think of it...
15:46:13  <Unknown_Entity> dihedral: 4 MB - binary isn't a lot to work with...
15:46:26  <Unknown_Entity> (4 MB - binary)
15:46:51  <dihedral> storing the generation seed in the config file....
15:47:06  <dihedral> when ever one starts a dedicated server it will use that seed for generating the map
15:47:16  <Belugas> !seen BigBB
15:47:48  <Belugas> @seen BigBB
15:47:48  <DorpsGek> Belugas: BigBB was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 13 hours, 43 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <BigBB> IIRC the bridge behavior was changed for the bridge-over-all patch
15:48:14  <Belugas> thank you, faithfull little bot
15:48:57  <dihedral> hello Belugas
15:48:58  <dihedral> :-)
15:49:31  <Belugas> hello dihedral
15:49:45  <Belugas> blame = r138 truelight ParentSpriteToDraw *parent_list[6144];
15:50:13  <dihedral> :-)
15:50:37  <frosch123> @openttd commit 138
15:50:39  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by truelight :: r138 trunk/viewport.c (2004-08-25 08:57:25 UTC)
15:50:40  <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Add: 64x64 stations are now nicely painted (increased size of
15:50:41  <DorpsGek> frosch123: parent_list)
15:51:25  <frosch123> We must be bored to check such things :)
15:51:55  <dihedral> or just miss truelight :-)
15:53:49  <Unknown_Entity> it might be useful for me. thanks for digging it up :)
15:54:07  <Belugas> well... since he left, i guess the more we know, the best it is ;)
15:54:39  <Belugas> just... why the heck did he choose such an odd number
15:55:41  <Unknown_Entity> maybe that's how many sprites a 64x64 station needs
15:55:51  <frosch123> 64*64 = 4096; +50% savety -> 6144
15:56:40  <Belugas> could very well be :)
15:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> @calc 3*2^11
15:56:51  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
15:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> err... what?
15:58:06  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause2: try **
15:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> @calc 3*2**11
15:58:17  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: 6144
15:58:21  <frosch123> But a 64x64 station is not drawn in one part
15:58:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> odd...
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16:05:57  <skidd13> Hi
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16:08:27  <dihedral> hello skidd13
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16:29:34  <SmatZ> hello
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17:43:02  <LeviathNL> is there a smart way to let multiple trains use a single track?
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17:49:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> PBS was very efficient for that scenario
17:50:51  <fjb> The actual presignal blocks are a bit braindead, sometimes...
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17:53:10  <LeviathNL> I'm using the base cost mod on mountainous rough terrain and building a foundation costs around 55.000€. Laying 2 lines is difficult :P
17:54:40  <dihedral> :-D
17:54:53  <dihedral> nice to see the base cost modifyer elsewhere in action
17:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, like i said, the only real solution is to use PBS (or at least the "intelligent presignalling" part of PBS)
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18:16:08  <Ammler> LeviathNL: thats why phazorx patched ottd
18:16:27  <Ammler> ottd takes costs from slope to build foundations
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18:16:58  <Ammler> his patch just mulitplied the normal track with about 8, iirc
18:17:09  <Phazorx> 4
18:17:31  <Phazorx> affecting anything that might require foundation
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18:17:51  <Phazorx> i think "associated" costs were multiplied by for making total cost per being 5x
18:18:05  <Ammler>
18:19:30  <Phazorx> okay 8 :)
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18:29:13  <ln-> let's rename the "Patch settings" to something else, ok?
18:29:16  <ln-> objections?
18:30:01  <Ammler> Switches?
18:31:38  <ln-> this was discussed before, and back then some good suggestions were made. does anyone remember?
18:32:13  <hylje> no
18:33:00  <fjb> Preferences? :-)
18:33:27  <Prof_Frink> ln-: Merge game options and difficulty settings as pages on the patches dialogue and call the whole thing "options" or "settings"
18:34:49  <Ammler> indeed, and maybe split options where aren't changeable after start
18:36:07  <Phazorx> "tweaks"
18:36:58  <Prof_Frink> newgrf settings could also be added to the dialogue
18:37:47  <Ammler> hmm, something like 2 list, left all activated grfs and right all available
18:38:38  <DaleStan> It might also be good to split interface settings (which can be changed independent of the server in MP) from the gameplay settings.
18:38:57  <DaleStan> I think some of those are properly split, but I'm not sure if they all are.
18:39:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11428 /trunk/src/table/cargo_const.h: -Fix: wrong string used for candy/sweets units_volume
18:40:06  <Ammler> and the company switches, like autoreplace of old vehicels
18:40:38  <Ammler> is there an other one?
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18:47:42  <alain> hi
18:48:12  <alain> can any one help me find some grf files
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18:52:42  <fjb> What are you looking for?
18:53:00  <fjb> Oh, he is gone.
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18:53:39  <fjb> People don'T have time, now he has to solve his problem alone. :-)
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18:57:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11429 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r11129): some TextID to StringID 'translations' didn't follow our format
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19:37:08  <Sacro>         Node *left, *right;
19:37:08  <Sacro>         int childCount() {
19:37:08  <Sacro>                 return !!left + !!right;
19:37:08  <Sacro>         }
19:37:12  <Sacro> XD
19:37:47  <Gonozal_VIII> !!?
19:37:58  <Sacro> not not
19:38:06  <Gonozal_VIII> why?
19:38:09  <Sacro> converts a cast to a bool
19:38:21  <Gonozal_VIII> what language is that?
19:38:28  <Sacro> C
19:38:32  <Gonozal_VIII> ah..
19:39:57  <Gonozal_VIII> and bool + bool is int?
19:40:09  <Rubidium> yes
19:40:18  <Rubidium> effectively a int is a bool and viceversa
19:40:21  <Gonozal_VIII> ok... nice trick then
19:40:36  <Rubidium> pointers are also seen as booleans in ifs
19:41:05  <Gonozal_VIII> i only know some java...
19:41:18  <Rubidium> java is much more strict about types
19:41:25  <Gonozal_VIII> yes
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19:46:49  <LeviathNL> can I interest someone in making highlights for autoroad? (
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20:04:32  * Belugas is interested but way too busy to do anything
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20:08:01  <LeviathNL> Ammler, so basecost grf does not work a 100% as intended on normal openttd?
20:08:28  <Ammler> why do mean?
20:08:44  <LeviathNL> Ammler> LeviathNL: thats why phazorx patched ottd
20:10:29  <Ammler> it only changes basecosts configurable over parameters
20:11:22  <Ammler> I have no idea who decided to take raise/lower land cost for foundations too
20:11:42  <Ammler> hmm, was foundations already in TTD?
20:12:44  <Prof_Frink> Only for town buildings
20:12:44  <Ammler> maybe we should check how it works with the Patch
20:13:54  <Ammler> Is there space for another basecost?
20:14:11  <Ammler> maybe that would be worth to add as its own
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20:17:20  <Ammler> DaleStan: was it ever discussed to add foundations as own base cost?
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20:36:41  <Wolf01> hello
20:36:45  <LeviathNL> hi
20:36:49  <Gonozal_VIII> hi
20:45:55  <Belugas> ih
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21:14:31  <helb> Is it possible to change autosave interval from (rcon) console? I can't find it on the wiki...
21:18:29  <Wolf01> search for the variable name
21:19:02  <Wolf01> in the configure patches code
21:22:41  <Gonozal_VIII> that's not a patch
21:23:13  <Wolf01> really? i must see
21:23:30  <Gonozal_VIII> it's in game options not configure patches
21:24:09  <Wolf01> oh yes, i see
21:24:31  <Wolf01> so i think that changing it with rcon is not possible
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21:36:49  <helb> Wolf01: okay, thanks...
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21:52:30  <LeviathNL> making a drivetrough station on a street tile costs the same amount as without one, I think it is better if it is less.
21:53:51  <LeviathNL> with the normal prices it isn't much of a difference but with grfs like the basecost mod it is. You also have to pay for the foundation again which is very expensive
21:55:54  <Ammler> LeviathNL: again, foudations take the price from raise/lower land, so it has nothing to do with the grf
21:56:57  <Ammler> and btw, you can change the values or deactivate some i.e. for you, you should deacitvate changes for raise/lower land
21:57:28  <LeviathNL> I know now,  this has nothing to do with the foundations being high priced but just the fact it uses these costs when building a drivetrough on an roadtile
21:58:54  <LeviathNL> it is a suggestion for a change in the openttd source, not the grf
21:59:49  <LeviathNL> the example of using the basecost mod is just to show the difference is not always a small amount
21:59:56  <Ammler> yeah, I would suggest to add a new base cost for foundations
22:00:40  <Ammler> yeah, we liked to have terraforming very expensive
22:01:28  <Ammler> LeviathNL: you know the wiki page about basecosts.grf?
22:01:45  <Ammler>
22:01:57  <LeviathNL> no but if you want to point me to the parameter settings I already tweaked them to my liking
22:02:22  <Ammler> :)
22:02:42  <Ammler> its also easy to add other costs, if you need
22:03:00  <Ammler> It was a "fast" hack for wwottdgd
22:03:29  <Ammler> this things would be changeable:
22:03:33  <LeviathNL> I indeed would also like a separate foundation basecost but right now this is giving me very challenging gameplay :P
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22:06:14  <dihedral> Ammler: does basecost work with 0.5.3?
22:06:25  <Ammler> of course
22:06:36  <Ammler> at least, it should
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22:06:48  <Gonozal_VIII> to raise land you only hate to dump some dirt there, for a foundation you need to build a wall and fill it with dirt, foundations shouldn't be cheaper than raising
22:07:02  <Ammler> only tested it wiht nightly ottd and ttdp
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22:08:20  <Ammler> Gonozal_VIII: it depense what do you rise/lower
22:09:46  <LeviathNL> I'm afraid basecosts are not easily added because it seems they are stored in the savegame.
22:09:54  <Gonozal_VIII> of course you could use cheaper foundations but the ones ingame look very solid and expensive
22:09:56  <Ammler> terraforming should cost like basecost*10^[how many tiles do you like rise/lower]
22:11:36  <Gonozal_VIII> then you would have to raise every corner one by one
22:11:56  <Ammler> LeviathNL: if you like to change a running game, you need to rename it to scn and edit it there
22:12:12  <Ammler> (save the difficult settings)
22:12:48  <Ammler> Gonozal_VIII: thats why foundations should be cheaper
22:12:49  <LeviathNL> I meant there is a chance no free bytes are available
22:12:55  <LeviathNL> in the savegame format
22:13:49  <Ammler> oh, possible, thos base costs seems to be there since TTO
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22:35:43  <DaleStan> Ammler: No additional base costs have been discussed. Adding new factors has been done (see industry prop 23), but new costs has not.
22:37:25  <Ammler> DaleStan: so would it make sence to add a additional factor for foundations?
22:38:00  <LeviathNL> what is the functional difference between new factors and base costs?
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22:38:47  <Ammler> LeviathNL: those values in the grf are factors
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22:40:18  <Ammler> NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost * 2^(n-8) <-- basecosts.grf does change n
22:40:53  <Ammler> (theoretically, you could also make everything cheaper
22:41:35  <DaleStan> The base costs are modified for inflation. The factors are not. Hence why the base costs are only modified, never set.
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22:45:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11430 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11421) [FS#1421]: there was still one case that would cause a crash...
22:45:13  <LeviathNL> Ammler, why the 2^-8? NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost *2^n * 2^-8
22:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> LeviathNL: to be able to make things cheaper
22:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause> without the need of signed values
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22:48:20  <Ammler> DaleStan: so its possible to add foundations as own factor? whats needed for?
22:49:04  <LeviathNL> do you mean without using floats :s ? you don't need signed values but a value <1 or am I wrong?
22:51:14  <Ammler> if you like a factor 1 ( just use 8), NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost * 2^(8-8)
22:51:24  <Wolf01> 'night
22:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> LeviathNL: the 2^ is to not need floats, the -8 is to not need signed values
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22:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause> for n=7, you have 2^(7-8) = 0.5
22:52:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. everything gets half the price
22:52:09  <Ammler> @calc 1*2**(8-8)
22:52:09  <DorpsGek> Ammler: 1
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22:52:17  <Ammler> @calc 1*2**(7-8)
22:52:17  <DorpsGek> Ammler: 0.5
22:52:45  <Ammler> @calc 1*2**(9-8)
22:52:45  <DorpsGek> Ammler: 2
22:52:48  <LeviathNL> I was not thinking about it as parameters
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22:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> n is the value specified in the grf
22:53:28  <Ammler> [23:40] <Ammler> NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost * 2^(n-8) <-- basecosts.grf does change n
22:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> grf values are generally 8 bit unsigned (hex) values, unless otherwise specified
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23:03:46  <ln-> why is "captain's log" translated as "computerlochbuch der Enterprise, kapitÀn Picard ..."?
23:06:28  <Gonozal_VIII> [00:06:05] Bartleby: weil jegliche synchro scheiße ist [00:06:10] Bartleby: IMMER und ÜBERALL
23:07:04  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
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23:12:26  <Eddi|zuHause> ln-: because english speakers aim for simplicity in the language, germans for complexity
23:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it's why you often find one german sentence translated into 3 english sentences
23:14:26  <Sacro> we liike to keep it simple
23:14:45  <Gonozal_VIII> raumÃŒbergreifendes GroßgrÃŒn = tree :-)
23:15:15  <ln-> ok
23:20:34  <Gonozal_VIII> or that: Falle Schnapp fÃŒr Maustier, grau = mousetrap
23:21:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "Falle, schnapp, fÃŒr Kleintier, grau"
23:21:11  <Gonozal_VIII> ok...
23:21:15  <Gonozal_VIII> sorry
23:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but this is kind of an extreme case :p
23:24:09  *** lolman is now known as John
23:24:13  <ln-> sounds like military way of expressing it
23:24:30  <Gonozal_VIII> it is
23:24:35  <ln-> "shirt, T, green"
23:26:02  *** John is now known as lolman
23:26:21  <ln-> why is there no EU directive yet that requires dubbing all programs?
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23:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> why would there be?
23:34:33  <ln-> it wouldn't be the first nor most useless directive.
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23:41:00  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause: btw, what kind of personal guns did you have in the military?
23:41:23  <Eddi|zuHause> err... i'm not sure if that is even allowed to be said
23:41:48  <ln-> wtf
23:42:49  <ln-> over here it is completely public information that virtually everyone carries a weapon like this:
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23:51:31  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause: but you did have weapons? or is even that a secret?
23:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
23:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
23:52:06  <fjb> ln-: The standard weapon of the german army is the Heckler & Koch G3.
23:52:48  <Eddi|zuHause> actually it is being replaced by the G36
23:53:33  <fjb> I'm not upto date. :-)
23:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "The G36 has replaced the G3 as the main infantry weapon of the Bundeswehr since 1997, a process that is now considered complete"
23:57:33  <ln-> how can it be on wikipedia if it is a secret?
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