Log for #openttd on 24th November 2007:
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00:49:13  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
00:49:13  <Sacro> !logs
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01:20:08  <ln-> egladil: was the right-click scroll bug even intel-specific?
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01:21:33  <ln-> the diff that fixed it doesn't seem endian-specific to my eyes...
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03:25:42  <egladil> [24 02:20 CET] ln- egladil: was the right-click scroll bug even intel-specific? <=== nope, it was generic
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08:45:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11504 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Fix [FS#1467]: removing docks/ship depots could result in non-canal water where canals should have been build.
08:56:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11505 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp road_gui.cpp): -Fix/Feature: make CTRL work on all road/rail construction options that 'work' with the 'Bulldozer' button instead of only a few.
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09:15:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11506 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#1471]: selling vehicles could cause the window of others to scroll to that location.
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09:21:36  <SmatZ> hello
09:27:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11507 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt viewport.cpp): -Fix [FS#1463]: signs totally illegible when transparant signs is turned on and zoomed out more than one level.
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09:55:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: egladil * r11508 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (5 files): -Cleanup: Removed unused headers from the cocoa video driver.
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10:05:22  <Gonozal_VIII> idea: a webpage where artists can upload lots of single vehicles in form of sprites and all important data in an artistfriendly way, then users can browse these vehicles in a list with screenshots, artist information, etc, user selects which vehicles he/she whants and the server compiles and sends them as a grf --> unique grfsets for everybody
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10:09:28  <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: go ahead and make it!
10:09:46  <Rubidium> especially the code to support all the action 2 callback stuff ;)
10:09:58  <Gonozal_VIII> the what?^^
10:10:34  <Rubidium> you assumption that vehicles are 'only' some sprite replacements is flawed
10:10:58  <Gonozal_VIII> i know that's why i wrote + all important data
10:11:22  <Rubidium> nfo != artist friendly (unless you mean nfo artist)
10:11:36  <dihedral> hello Rubidium :-)
10:12:00  <Gonozal_VIII> then there should be a compiler, that makes that artist friendly :-)
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10:12:22  <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: go make one, like a gazillion people have suggested before.
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10:13:58  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm if there was a compiler, would the rest work?
10:14:05  <Gonozal_VIII> potentially
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10:14:16  <Rubidium> let me rephrase that: if YOU don't do it, it's more than likely that nobody else will do it either, so when you do not do it this idea will never leave the idea stage like so many ideas to 'simplify' grf coding
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10:19:06  <Gonozal_VIII> maybe that would require human compilers^^ a form where the artists submit sprites and what they want it to do and people who can write nfo look through that and code it
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10:20:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11509 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: off-by-one error in some sprite numbers; increase sprite number counter before loading the next sprite instead of after doing so.
10:20:49  <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: major problem with NewGRFs this 'age' seems to be the people who need to make the nfo (code) for the NewGRFs have less time than the actual graphics artists
10:20:58  <Rubidium> do you're ending up with lots of sprites without coding
10:21:14  <Rubidium> or even works, no sprites with any coding because nobody could be bothered to code them
10:21:57  <Bjarni> I think it's more like nobody bothers.... there is not really a deadline for coding GRF files
10:22:50  <Rubidium> Bjarni: I think there is a deadline
10:22:58  <Rubidium> before TTDP 2.5 gets released ;)
10:23:14  <Bjarni> heh
10:24:13  <Bjarni> the only valid reason for rushing a release before the code is ready are financial ones. I sure hope that the patch has financial interests in quick releases
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10:24:31  <gono_ping_timeout> aaand connection gone...
10:24:34  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
10:24:34  <gono_ping_timeout> !logs
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10:25:40  <gono_ping_timeout> maybe more people would learn to code that if there were a organised system where they can see lots of beautiful vehicles that need coding
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10:26:24  <Rubidium> maybe I sound pessimistic, but I don't see it happen
10:26:41  <gono_ping_timeout> and for only one vehicle at a time, that wouldn't be a large project... it's easier to get people to make small projects than large ones
10:26:42  <Rubidium> as they was going to be something for the 32bpp sprites too and that does not even look remotely near finished
10:27:01  <Ammler> it should be a new system not releated to patch, and converter between
10:27:18  <Rubidium> Ammler: go ahead and write it
10:27:49  <Ammler> ok, when is deadline for it?
10:28:01  <Rubidium> three years ago?
10:28:05  <Ammler> :)
10:28:53  <Rubidium> it's easy to do ~80% in *any* other language, but it's the ~20% that is the major problem.
10:29:34  <Rubidium> replacing sprites and properties is easy, the callbacks and the stuff that can be done there is a completely different challenge
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10:30:00  <Ammler> but serious, grf coding is very complicated and I could imagine, the ottd code for the newgrf isn't easy either
10:30:40  <Bjarni> OTTD use the same GRF codec as the patch
10:31:13  <Rubidium> Ammler: ever thought what using another format means?
10:31:55  <gono_ping_timeout> that would be parallel to the old one of course then
10:31:59  <gono_ping_timeout> :-)
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10:32:05  <Ammler> it would need a converter for existing grfs and also manually work
10:32:13  <Rubidium> gono_ping_timeout: that's making it even more cumbersome
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10:32:37  <Rubidium> Ammler: and that converter needs to be updated continously to match the NewGRF specs.
10:32:57  <Rubidium> it furthermore needs to be in OpenTTD as otherwise you cannot run all NewGRFs that you could before.
10:33:11  <Rubidium> you need to make the functionality of the new format a superset of NewGRF's functionality
10:33:31  <Rubidium> you need to completely write the new format's code from scratch
10:33:53  <Rubidium> you need to write documentation for the new format (even the NewGRF documentation is not finshed and it is already a lot)
10:34:08  <Gonozal_VIII> in c++ :-)
10:34:58  <Rubidium> you need to test whether everything works
10:35:07  <Rubidium> you need to convince people to drop TTDP support
10:35:09  <skidd13> I wrote somestuff in BF42 RFA/CON language mainly fixes for DC that language would be nice
10:35:25  <dihedral> hey Bjarni ;-)
10:35:34  <Bjarni> hi dihedral
10:35:58  <dihedral> anything i could realisticly be of help with?
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10:36:22  <Rubidium> I think you need at least 2-5 full manyear to complete the project, based on the amount of work in the NewGRF implementation and the time used to make the documenation.
10:38:32  <Bjarni> dihedral: yeah... go to the development forum and figure out if the C++ tutorials are usable... in other words if you can code after doing them, then they work
10:38:35  <Bjarni> ;)
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10:38:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11510 /trunk/src/ (34 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: merge the IS_*INSIDE* functions and rename them fitting to the naming style
10:39:03  <dihedral> if you are serious about that i will
10:42:59  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think you can learn any programming language just by reading some tutorial
10:43:08  <dihedral> that is not the point
10:43:31  <dihedral> point would be - does it makes sense what was written
10:44:12  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
10:44:12  <SmatZ> !logs
10:44:48  <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think you can learn any programming language just by reading some tutorial <-- agreed but it could be a good start for learning a new language
10:45:06  <Gonozal_VIII> the quiz thing is a nice idea there
10:45:32  <Bjarni> I didn't look closely at that tutorial
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10:46:04  <Bjarni> but it would be nice if we can forward all wouldbe patches to that tutorial instead of answering all sorts of n00b questions
10:46:47  * dihedral goes and reads it then
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10:48:20  <Gonozal_VIII> then the most important thing imho (besides it being complete and correct) is the search function
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10:49:49  <Gonozal_VIII> which doesn't seem to contain anything :S
10:51:47  <Gonozal_VIII> seems to be wip
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11:15:50  <Gonozal_VIII> wow, there just was a ship tunnel on tv... i didn't think they would exist in rl
11:16:13  <Bjarni> screenshot?
11:16:37  <Gonozal_VIII> erm.. my tv doesn't make screenshots
11:16:41  <Bjarni> or do you lack a tuner in your computer?
11:17:01  * Bjarni has no problems making screenshots from TV channels
11:17:53  <dihedral> lol
11:17:58  <Gonozal_VIII> i have a tv card for my laptop but i only use that when i'm at my other "home" at university, here i have a big tv :D
11:19:22  <Bjarni> my "real" TV died so I have only one option for TV watching
11:19:32  <dihedral> i dont have a tv
11:19:41  <dihedral> nor a tv card
11:19:41  <Bjarni> which happens to be way better than the TV
11:19:57  <Gonozal_VIII> no tv at all? :O
11:19:58  <Bjarni> dihedral: then how do you watch the Simpsons?
11:20:09  <dihedral> i cannot
11:20:22  <dihedral> and even if i could it'd be in german
11:20:27  <dihedral> and that just sucks
11:20:28  <Bjarni> good point
11:20:31  <Gonozal_VIII> isn't that one of the basics needed for survival?
11:20:41  <dihedral> like i said - it's all in german
11:20:47  <Bjarni> actually I can't watch the Simpsons either
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11:21:02  <dihedral> i hate watching movies in german i hate watching simpsons in german...
11:21:12  <dihedral> ...
11:21:20  <Gonozal_VIII> ok, german synchro sucks, that's a valid point...
11:21:21  <dihedral> i just buy a bunch of dvd's instead :-D
11:21:24  <Gonozal_VIII> but no tv?
11:21:28  <Bjarni> for some reason none of the channels I have access to wants to show Simpsons
11:21:51  <dihedral> i was thinking to maybe go for digital cable tv
11:22:00  <dihedral> then i'd get a bunch of us and uk channels
11:22:00  <Bjarni> <dihedral> i just buy a bunch of dvd's instead :-D <-- then how do you keep up to date with politics and stuff?
11:22:13  <Gonozal_VIII> politics dvd^^
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11:22:30  <dihedral> oh - news is broadcasted over the internet
11:22:56  <dihedral> and then i must add, uk has no good news thingy at all
11:23:09  <dihedral> germany at least manages to squish the world into 15 mins :-P
11:24:06  <Gonozal_VIII> n24 has some nice documentations :-)
11:24:40  <Gonozal_VIII> and "kabel 1"...
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11:25:15  <Gonozal_VIII> things about big machines and such...
11:25:27  <dihedral> i love Mc Guyver
11:25:32  <dihedral> :-P
11:25:35  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
11:25:40  <Gonozal_VIII> i watched that as a kid
11:25:51  <Bjarni> I love machinery
11:25:57  <Bjarni> well
11:26:02  <Bjarni> that depends
11:26:14  <Bjarni> there are some machinery that I don't care for
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11:26:50  <dihedral> :-P lol
11:26:51  <Gonozal_VIII> they have docus about all kinds of big stuff
11:27:27  <Bjarni> like steam engines?
11:27:38  <Gonozal_VIII> yes that too
11:28:03  <Gonozal_VIII> but mostly about modern machines
11:28:04  <dihedral> :-P
11:28:12  <dihedral> disel engines
11:28:24  <Bjarni> *diesel
11:28:52  <Gonozal_VIII> there was one about a rail vehicle that replaces the rails while driving over them
11:29:06  <Bjarni> we use those all the time
11:29:13  <Bjarni> in fact there is one here right now
11:29:18  <dihedral>
11:29:29  <Bjarni> well... here as in less than 10 km away
11:29:35  <Bjarni> and it's working right now
11:30:35  <Bjarni> some track maintenance rolling stock are rather cool
11:30:36  <Gonozal_VIII> that digs out the whole track bed deep down and replaces everything?
11:30:56  <Bjarni> it replaces the tracks and the sleepers
11:31:54  <Bjarni> and it's really long by itself because it's on the tracks in both ends and it removes and places the new tracks between the bogies
11:32:43  <Gonozal_VIII> that's so cool :D
11:32:56  <Gonozal_VIII> never saw anything like that in rl...
11:33:07  <Gonozal_VIII> they do everything by hand here
11:34:10  <Bjarni> when you have tried doing it by hand then you really like the machinery
11:34:56  <Bjarni> starting with the machine to fasten the bolts on the sleepers to put on the tracks
11:35:17  <Bjarni> that is kind of hard to do by hand
11:35:22  <Bjarni> takes strength and time
11:35:45  <Gonozal_VIII> are they concrete or wooden?
11:35:50  * Bjarni has tried doing that to replace rotten sleepers
11:36:19  <Bjarni> wood. The automatic replacement uses concrete sleepers
11:36:22  <Gonozal_VIII> they replace all the completely fine wooden ones with concrete... i don't know why
11:36:57  <Bjarni> concrete sleepers are cheaper, lasts longer and are more environmental friendly
11:37:20  <Bjarni> they fill the wood with a whole lot of chemical to prevent them from rotting
11:37:33  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think that they last longer... the wood has so much chemicals in it that it lasts practically forever
11:37:38  <Bjarni> so today they are only used for non-standard sleepers like in switches
11:38:02  <Bjarni>  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think that they last longer... the wood has so much chemicals in it that it lasts practically forever <-- well.. everything is relative... they last 40 years
11:38:17  <Bjarni> correctly made concrete sleepers lasts 50 years
11:38:33  <Gonozal_VIII> they often break in the middle
11:38:37  <Hendikins> Bjarni: My customers love me... and there was a cheer this evening when I read out the election scorecard :)
11:38:49  <Bjarni> hehe
11:38:58  <Bjarni> I hear that you threw away your government
11:39:10  <Hendikins> We did! Good riddance!
11:39:25  <Gonozal_VIII> wherewhenwhat :S
11:39:31  <Hendikins> The station staff cheered, the passengers were grinning from ear to ear :)
11:39:51  <Hendikins> Gonozal_VIII: Australia has a new Prime Minister
11:39:58  <Gonozal_VIII> ah...
11:40:20  <Bjarni> I don't know much about Australian politics but I know that now you are more likely to withdraw troops and give more room for terrorists like taliban
11:40:35  <Hendikins> Not exactly.
11:40:59  <Bjarni> then the news here told it wrong (which isn't the first time)
11:41:29  <Hendikins> The existing government wanted to screw over workers in favour of big business. The bloke who won... well, he won simply because he wasn't the existing PM.
11:41:36  <Bjarni> here we reelected the government last week
11:41:39  <Hendikins> s/wanted to/had already started
11:41:39  <Gonozal_VIII> troops cause terrorism, they don't prevent it...
11:42:55  <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: that's not really true... if they are removed then people like taliban takes over and they can generate even more money to attack the west since they see us as the eternal enemy
11:43:07  <Bjarni> they did so even before we showed up at their location
11:43:34  <Gonozal_VIII> when?
11:43:59  <Hendikins> Bjarni: In any case, how is work? :P
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11:44:43  <Bjarni> Iraq founded suicide bombers in Israel (hence a reason why Israel wanted to get rid of Iraq)
11:45:15  <Bjarni> I don't say that I side with Israel though but suicide bombers are just plain wrong nomatter the reason
11:45:18  <Gonozal_VIII> and they did that because israel is so peaceful?
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11:45:31  <Bjarni> no
11:46:01  <Gonozal_VIII> ok, suicide bombing is wrong, nobody will argue about that... but how desperate do you have to be to do that?
11:46:04  <Bjarni> but there is one story about military entering the countries in question. There is another one about leaving
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11:46:16  <Hendikins> Bjarni: We had a swing of just under 6% to the new government.
11:46:20  <Bjarni> the fact is that the troops are present right now
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11:46:48  <Bjarni> if we leave it will not magically return to the state it was in before we came and it will not just stop the terrorists and make them idle
11:46:54  <Bjarni> they will try to take power
11:47:44  <Bjarni> so by leaving we will create countries there the population is controlled by a government who kills whoever they don't like
11:47:53  <Hendikins>
11:48:16  <Bjarni> a government that is even worse than the Saddam one we wanted to get rid of
11:48:31  <Gonozal_VIII> but as long as there are foreign forces there, they will gain followers that want to get rid of them
11:49:02  <Gonozal_VIII> there has to be some way
11:50:14  <Bjarni> diplomacy only works when it's accepted by both sides and the world can't tell taliban how to behave
11:50:41  <Bjarni> remember that even the Muslim countries like Pakistan are fighting taliban
11:51:03  <ln-> Bjarni: how does quartz feel?
11:51:28  <Bjarni> the local population celebrates whenever taliban withdraw from their area
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11:51:39  <Bjarni> ln-: slower, but at least it works now
11:52:16  <Gonozal_VIII> they will loose followers and support when there are no foreign troops to fight against
11:52:39  <Bjarni> if we just withdraw then the result will be that they will take control and kill whoever they don't like for reasons like sending a girl to school, learning a foreign language and stuff like that
11:53:08  <Vikthor> (12:48:32) Gonozal_VIII: but as long as there are foreign forces there, they will gain followers that want to get rid of them -- Sure that is because how the foreign forces behave
11:53:29  <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> they will loose followers and support when there are no foreign troops to fight against <-- so Hitler lost support when Germany didn't have any foreign troops?
11:54:15  <Bjarni> besides they don't need support... they have the weapons. They can rule and kill without support from the population
11:54:49  <Bjarni> our troops are instructed on how to deal with taliban without hurting the local population and it actually works
11:55:07  <Vikthor> The only solution is unfortunately to send there more foreign forces
11:55:38  <Bjarni> yeah... it's not an ideal solution but we have to do so
11:56:07  <Bjarni> imagine WW2 if every single country decided not to care for the war unless their own land was attacked
11:56:24  <Bjarni> and then even in that case they might not do anything seriously about it
11:56:33  <Vikthor> Bjarni: Thats exactly what USA and USSR did :)
11:56:34  <Bjarni> USA wouldn't have done anything in Europe
11:57:05  <Bjarni>  <Vikthor> Bjarni: Thats exactly what USA and USSR did :) <-- yeah... the war didn't stop until they changed politics
11:57:16  <Bjarni> USA was never attacked from Europe
11:58:11  <Bjarni> USSR should have just pushed Germany out of their own land, but not made a counter attack if they should follow the ideas of withdrawal from Afghanistan that people talk about today
11:59:28  <Bjarni> the idea of not having troops in other countries are an ideal one but sadly it's not working :s
11:59:37  <Bjarni> it's just not how the world works
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12:01:25  <Vikthor> (12:57:17) Bjarni: USA was never attacked from Europe -- Germany declared war on USA not the other way around
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12:02:28  <Bjarni> are you completely sure... what happened just before they did?
12:03:09  <Bjarni> is it like Pearl Harbour where the history books claims it to be an attack where in reality it was a counter attack due to USA financially attacking Japan?
12:03:59  <Gonozal_VIII> they supplied gb with lots of weapons
12:04:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> technically, there was a strong lobby for germany in the USA, and they did not actively enter the war until they got attacked by japan
12:04:52  <Bjarni> USA declared that all oil producing countries should boycott Japan. Japan objected but nobody cared so Japan used their navy (the biggest in the Pacific) to gain control of the oil wells in Indonesia and to protect their oil transports they had to defeat the strongholds that could attack them
12:04:58  <Vikthor> It was so that USA declared war on Japan and after that Germany declared war on USA
12:04:58  <Bjarni> Pearl Harbour was one of them
12:05:03  <Bjarni> Bangkok was another one
12:05:45  <Bjarni> they attacked even more strongholds but I can't remember them all
12:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> and note that this was already half way through the war
12:07:09  <Bjarni> USA went into WW1 when Germany sank one of their ships but Germany did so because British ships used US flags to hide themselves and then fire on German ships at short range where the British ships were better
12:07:41  <Bjarni> so in reality Britain forced Germany into a conflict with USA by doing so
12:08:05  <Bjarni> also at that time USA made a fortune by supplying Britain with all sorts of stuff
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12:15:03  <chu_> Rubidium: ?
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12:18:29  <dihedral> save passwords on server patch looks good :-)
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12:18:42  <dihedral> good = nice idea
12:21:21  <Bjarni> the problem is that a password should be known to only the server and the client
12:21:35  <Bjarni> if we just add it to the savegame then it will be transmitted to new clients
12:22:02  <Rotonen> and a diff-helman would be overkill
12:23:07  <dihedral> that has been changed Bjarni
12:23:14  <dihedral> aparently it saves to another file
12:23:15  <Ammller> a special passwd file on the server with company id and pw as md5?
12:23:21  <dihedral> but i might be wrong there
12:23:51  <dihedral> password as md5 would mean that passwords are saved generally as md5
12:24:31  <Rotonen> who's specifically in charge of multiplayer code?
12:24:40  <Rotonen> or is there any hierarchy on this project?
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12:25:53  <Ammller> Rotonen: why do you need to know that?
12:26:16  <Rotonen> i'd like to consult the person
12:26:32  <Rotonen> before posting something into your task tracker
12:27:04  <Rotonen> currently the client does not handle the end of game well in a multiplayer game
12:27:50  <Ammller> Rotonen:
12:28:20  <Rotonen> did not really clarify
12:28:21  <dihedral> what does it not handle well?
12:28:35  <Rotonen> well it just kicks you out of the game and tells the connection was lost?
12:28:42  <Rotonen> and even that information times out
12:29:30  <Gonozal_VIII> yes, if the server shuts down you just get back to the start screen without any information
12:29:44  <dihedral> for me when the game is restarted by reaching restart_game_year or issueing newgame, i reconnect
12:30:08  <Rotonen> yes, but i'd like to see the end game results (as would the majority of players playing on my server and giving feedback)
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12:30:24  <Gonozal_VIII> ah that 2051 stuff
12:30:32  <Rotonen> yes
12:30:35  <dihedral> then you need to set end_year earlier than restart_game_year
12:30:59  <Rotonen> the easiest way would be to export the end results
12:31:09  <dihedral> ?
12:31:16  <dihedral> use a save game?
12:31:23  <Rotonen> in some parseable form (xml anyone?) so one could dynamically form result web pages
12:31:44  <dihedral> ...
12:31:46  <Rotonen> well yes, was afraid i was going to have to code that myself as an external app
12:31:57  <dihedral> if you want results of running games there are tools for that :-P
12:32:01  <Rotonen> but what i'm here asking for is some nicer endgame handling for the client
12:32:07  <Gonozal_VIII> that sounds somewhat nice, not only for multiplayer...
12:32:24  <Rotonen> Gonozal_VIII: not really the headache of this project, though
12:32:57  <Rotonen> if the client were to stay even paused upon game reset in the endgame so a player could see the results, that would be really nice
12:33:16  <Rotonen> though it would require some sort of an endgame signal for it
12:33:18  <dihedral> i.e. freeze the game
12:34:01  <dihedral> actually - Bjarni i had something funny when my powerbook suspended due to low battery
12:34:26  <dihedral> i 'woke' it up again this morning and i had a frozen game
12:34:36  <dihedral> frozen in the sense of me being able to scroll everything
12:34:46  <dihedral> just not 'unpause' etc.
12:35:05  <dihedral> and at some point it then went back to the main menu (i.e. after 10 mins or so :-P)
12:35:16  <Bjarni> heh
12:35:24  <dihedral> i thought that was pretty neat actually
12:35:35  <dihedral> :-P
12:35:46  <Rotonen> a broken statmachine perhaps?
12:36:07  <dihedral> had the minimap open, so i could scroll that and and scoll the normal map too
12:36:34  <Gonozal_VIII> game ends... endscreen until you do something, then the map is there in pause and you are able to save the game and it saves game statistics in a file in the game dir
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12:36:59  <dihedral> write it :-)
12:37:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11511 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Revert parts of r11505: forgot that CTRL might be used for other features, like adjacent stations or signals.
12:37:35  <dihedral> :-P
12:37:52  <Rotonen> helpful and supportive, aren't we :P
12:37:57  <chu_> Rubidium: thx :-)
12:38:08  <Gonozal_VIII> the map stays there part shouldn't be that hard, sometimes it already does that
12:38:38  <chu_> what does adjacent stations mean?
12:38:39  <Gonozal_VIII> if i loose my internet connection while playing on a server, the game freezes but stays there
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12:39:06  <Gonozal_VIII> different stations that touch each other
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12:39:22  <Gonozal_VIII> or something like that^^
12:40:36  <dihedral> and you dont suppose a bunch of people will complain that their game frezzes because they lost connection?
12:41:19  <Gonozal_VIII> it is already that way and i didn't see anybody complaining
12:42:27  <dihedral> the game does not 'freeze' when you lose your connection
12:43:21  <Gonozal_VIII> it does?
12:43:52  <Gonozal_VIII> i'll try again now...
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12:48:57  <Gonozal_VIII> so.. a friend of mine will host now, i'll connect to his server, reset my router and see wat happens
12:49:00  <Gonozal_VIII> +h
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12:56:41  <dihedral> why so complicated?
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13:00:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11512 /trunk/src/ (road_gui.cpp subsidy_gui.cpp): -Change: make the subsidy window able to resize to something smaller than 640x127 (especially the 640 part) when the screen is really too small.
13:01:23  <Gonozal_VIII> :S i broke irc
13:01:35  <dihedral> that is your own silly fault :-P
13:01:50  <Gonozal_VIII> but i don't know why
13:01:55  <Gonozal_VIII> and how
13:02:01  <dihedral> you reset your router?
13:02:15  <Gonozal_VIII> only the connection
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13:02:40  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't see the userlist or the topic or anything here...
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13:02:55  <Gonozal_VIII> did i join multiple times?
13:03:23  <Gonozal_VIII> anyways, what i wanted to test worked
13:03:26  <Gonozal_VIII> the game freezes
13:03:47  <dihedral>
13:03:53  <dihedral> sorry - wrong channel
13:04:07  <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: does it completely freeze, or does it just not continue with the map?
13:04:33  <Gonozal_VIII> i can scroll around but the time is stuck
13:04:34  <dihedral> when i lose my connection i am back in the main menu
13:04:46  <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: exactly as it should be
13:04:51  <Gonozal_VIII> it is not set to pause but nothing moves
13:05:07  <Rubidium> well... the server did not tell to go to the next frame.
13:05:20  <Rubidium> the server *always* tells the clients when it can go to the next frame.
13:05:29  <Rubidium> this to synchronise all clients.
13:06:25  <Gonozal_VIII> i can save and load and it works :-)
13:06:40  <Gonozal_VIII> that's how every multiplayer game should end imho
13:06:46  <Rubidium> it will 'die' after the connection has been determined to be lost
13:06:51  <Rubidium> which is configurable by the way
13:07:07  <Rubidium> you just need to check what specific setting of your OS you need to set
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13:07:47  <Gonozal_VIII> it only happens if my internet connection is lost
13:08:37  <Gonozal_VIII> which happens every 8h because my provider thinks that's cool or something...
13:10:26  <Gonozal_VIII> and i'll try to get my irc back to working normal now...
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13:16:24  <Gonozal_VIII> yay
13:17:13  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
13:17:13  <Gonozal_VIII> !logs
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13:50:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11513 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Codechange: enumerize some depot GUI actions
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13:55:09  <_fjb_> Moin
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14:04:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11514 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Change: implement the automatic multiplier handler for NewGRF industries.
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16:48:54  * SpComb sighs at MyOTTD
16:49:47  * dihedral pats SpComb on the back
16:49:51  <dihedral> whats up?
16:49:52  <SpComb> 0.6.0-beta1 has a different file structure, settings.cpp has changed, the currently used web framework smells
16:50:10  <dihedral> ...
16:50:28  <dihedral> looks like you have some work to do :-P
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16:51:08  <SpComb> I need a plan, lots of time and preferrably someone to help
16:51:13  <SpComb> it's starting to get complicated
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16:52:51  <SpComb> still need to figure out how feasible it would be to patch the OpenTTD source code to add a more suitable control interface for dedicated servers
16:53:00  <SpComb> are console messages/debug messages localized?
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16:53:59  <SpComb> I'm not sure if I want to update to support the new settings.cpp, I'd rather try my hand at extracting that info out of OpenTTD at runtime via said control interface
16:55:17  <dihedral> ?
16:55:23  <dihedral> i am going to go home now...
16:55:25  <dihedral> cu in a bit
16:56:37  <SpComb> my plan for the future is to replace the console/udp based MyOTTD<->OpenTTD interaction with some kind of specialized inter-process API in OpenTTD
16:57:18  <SpComb> so instead of printing out some english-language string whenever a player joins the server, OpenTTD would instead send out some kind of binary opcode message with the ip address and such
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18:07:58  <dihedral> hello
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18:09:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11515 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Codechange: cleanup of NetworkStartServerWindow in network_gui.cpp
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18:18:04  * SpComb breaks OpenTTD in interesting ways
18:19:47  <hylje> new and interesting*
18:23:46  <SpComb> woo, it compiled
18:28:03  * SpComb ponders upon the magic that is VARDEF
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18:38:10  <ln-> het ongewoon sterke tetryonveld vormt een gevaar voor de navigatie.
18:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, it does ;)
18:42:50  <ln-> yes, better keep that in mind.
18:47:02  <SpComb> bleh, I was editing the console.cpp from trunk, and the openttd.h/etc from 0.6.1-beta1
18:47:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, if i'm ever going to navigate through a tetryonfield, that information could come in handy ;)
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19:02:18  <SpComb> hmm, debug() does both fprintf(stderr, ...) and IConsoleDebug
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19:14:26  <SpComb> hmm... the revision on my server is r11515M, I guess it adds in an M because I've modified it?
19:15:03  <SpComb> the modifications have zero relevance to the client though, and I can't build the windows client myself... how can I not have it include the M in that string?
19:17:16  <Sacro> --version ;
19:17:17  <Sacro> ;)
19:17:24  <Sacro> or
19:17:28  <Sacro> REV=foobar make
19:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> SpComb: you can ./configure a version string override
19:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> although you really should only do that if you know what you are doing
19:19:34  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause3: or don't care
19:20:01  * SpComb does indeed not care
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19:40:43  <Sacro> foo = 3/*bar; /* division by pointer or comment start? */
19:41:51  <Gonozal_VIII> javadoc
19:42:30  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm
19:42:54  <Gonozal_VIII> sorry, just woke up
19:44:10  <Gonozal_VIII> (eyes half closed and such)
19:46:25  <Gonozal_VIII> i would guess comment and then it starts to complain about missing ;
19:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> not if the next statement is an empty statement ;)
19:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> it gets funnier, if the next statement is *bar=foo ;)
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19:50:29  <Gonozal_VIII> seems to be a weakness of the language... nice, i don't evern know most of it and now i know how to break it, yay
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19:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, there are quite some ambiguousities with *
19:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> like what is 3**bar
19:53:53  <Sacro> foo * bar
19:54:08  <Sacro> ** ?
19:54:10  <Sacro> pow!
19:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> it could also mean 3 * (*bar)
19:54:55  <Gonozal_VIII> why is it not ^ or something for power?
19:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> ^ is XOR
19:55:12  <Gonozal_VIII> ah
19:55:27  <hylje> well
19:55:27  <Sacro> foo += ** bar
19:55:29  <Sacro> ><
19:55:36  <Sacro> hmm
19:55:37  <hylje> ambiguousness with ^ instead of * and **?
19:56:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> !calc 2^1
19:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> @calc 2^1
19:57:01  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause3: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
19:57:25  <Gonozal_VIII> not a valid number :S
19:58:57  <SmatZ> can I stop running server (openttd -D -f) in a different way than with kill?
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20:08:20  <Gonozal_VIII> you could disconnect from the internet, turn off the server, blow up the server, cut the power cord, blow up your local power plant, detonate a nuclear bomb in the stratosphere and let the emp shut it off and lots of more options :-)
20:11:00  <SmatZ> thanks, I will do it with the nuclear bomb :-P
20:16:16  <Sacro> fire!
20:16:19  <Sacro> nah
20:16:26  <Sacro> the only safe way is to nuke it from orbit
20:16:50  <SmatZ> thanks, I see there is no solution :-P
20:19:43  <Sacro> not using kill?
20:19:45  <Sacro> killall?
20:20:39  <Sacro> fo
20:22:20  <SmatZ> fo ?
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20:23:03  <welterde> hi
20:23:03  <Gonozal_VIII> hi
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20:23:39  <|fjb|> Hi
20:23:54  <SmatZ> hi
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20:29:47  <Sacro> SmatZ: fo shizzle
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20:40:34  <SpComb> hmm... my api thing kind of works now
20:40:45  <SpComb> but, of course, it's buggy and doesn't work
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20:45:42  <ln-> does the middle mouse button have any functionality?
20:45:54  <Sacro> in what?
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20:46:06  <ln-> in OpenTTD, for example.
20:46:26  <ln-> and yes, in particular in OpenTTD.
20:46:49  <ln-> my question could even be understood as to limit exclusively on OpenTTD.
20:47:06  <Maedhros> not as far as i know
20:47:10  <Gonozal_VIII> didn't notice anything about middle mouse button in openttd
20:47:38  <Maedhros> but then i don't think the right mouse button does anything either
20:48:13  <Gonozal_VIII> right is for scrolling
20:48:30  <Maedhros> heh, oops
20:48:32  <ln-> yeah, and at least I even use it for scrolling.
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20:49:29  <Gonozal_VIII> i always use that, never the cursor keys
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20:50:34  <Gonozal_VIII> in combination with mousewheel zoom out, right mousebutton scroll, mousewheel zoom in, you can navigate fast over the map :-)
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20:56:38  <ln-> i just thought the middle button could be assigned some purpose, if it happens to exist.
20:56:48  <gono_ping_timeout> like?
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20:59:11  <gono_ping_timeout> to center the map there or something?
20:59:23  <ln-> dunno, a shortcut for the questionmark tool for example.
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21:00:11  <ln-> or bring up the terrain toolbar, or...
21:03:05  <gono_ping_timeout> configurable then...
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21:03:24  <ln-> too much configurability is bad
21:03:48  <gono_ping_timeout> hmm
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21:04:53  <Sacro> autorail?
21:04:56  <gono_ping_timeout> hidden configuability can't hurt.. with a default action and if you want something else, add a line in the config
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21:17:39  <SpComb> yay, now I get e.g. JOIN/CHAT/LEAVE in pure binary goodness
21:18:13  <gono_ping_timeout> ?
21:18:18  <SpComb> <-- printed out nicely
21:19:26  <gono_ping_timeout> hai?^^
21:19:58  <SpComb> I've replaced console.cpp with my own api.cpp
21:20:01  <Rotonen> yes, much more efficient than the previous approach
21:20:56  <SpComb> <-- my testing script
21:21:40  <gono_ping_timeout> oh noes a while true
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21:27:19  <SpComb> hmm.... reading arbitrary binary data from stdin isn't that simple, it seems
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21:42:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11516 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Codechange: cleanup of NetworkGameWindow in network_gui.cpp
21:50:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11517 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Codechange: better cleanup of NetworkStartServerWindow in network_gui.cpp
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21:53:36  <ln-> i found a bug!
21:54:01  <Rubidium> splut it
21:54:21  <SmatZ> really?
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21:56:04  <Rubidium> well, not if it's on the middle of your expensive monitor/hardware, but when it's on the door or so, just splut it ;)
21:58:32  <ln-> i have a fix for the consequence but not the cause.
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22:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> doctors do that all the time
22:11:58  <Rotonen> also medical research facilities prefer to do that
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22:35:53  <|fjb|> Hi
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22:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it's not like you could recompile a human with debug symbols and then single-step through ;)
22:37:10  <fjb> :-)
22:37:18  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
22:37:18  <fjb> !logs
22:37:23  <Sacro> ahh so *thats* why he only has one leg
22:37:28  <Gonozal_VIII> not yet :-)
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22:55:03  <SpComb> hmm... htonl, but for 64-bit ints
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23:31:17  <ln-> egladil: ping
23:31:48  <egladil> pong
23:32:31  <ln-> try to scroll the map quickly with right-mouse down, release button only after the cursor is outside OTTD window.
23:33:34  <ln-> then move the cursor back on the window, and the game will think you still have right mouse down.
23:34:06  <Gonozal_VIII> erm... the cursor doesn't move when you keep the right button down
23:34:31  <ln-> the real question is why can the cursor exit the window when right is down, and why doesn't it happen with ctrl+left down.
23:34:56  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: what kind of a Mac do you have?
23:35:09  <egladil> i can't test that right now since i don't have a two-button mouse
23:35:12  <Gonozal_VIII> that kint that has nothing to do with mac
23:35:38  <ln-> that kint that?
23:35:50  <Gonozal_VIII> the kind that?
23:35:58  <Gonozal_VIII> no mac :P
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23:36:23  <Gonozal_VIII> but you didn't say anyhing about mac
23:36:49  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: i did, i said "egladil: ".
23:37:05  <egladil> heh
23:37:08  <Gonozal_VIII> that was the ping :-)
23:37:20  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
23:37:35  <egladil> that implied mac
23:38:43  <Gonozal_VIII> macs have ctrl?
23:38:55  <ln-> egladil: btw, was there something intel-specific about this fix:
23:39:02  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: they are in ctrl of the world.
23:39:11  <Gonozal_VIII> :P
23:39:29  <Gonozal_VIII> not my world!
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23:41:53  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: and yes, sure macs have ctrl, alt, command and space.
23:42:28  <Gonozal_VIII> would be hard to type without space...
23:42:54  <egladil> ln-: no, that fix was for both intel and ppc
23:44:13  <ln-> egladil: ok, thought so... so was bjarni incorrectly reporting it as being intel-specific?
23:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> <Gonozal_VIII> would be hard to type without space... <- that's a big problem in morse code, it does not contain the letter "space", even though it is the most common letter in a text
23:45:28  <egladil> whoever reported it as intel-only was indeed incorrect, since when checking it out i got it on ppc too
23:45:57  <ln-> "Comment by Bjarni (Bjarni) - Friday, 23 November 2007, 07:51AM
23:46:02  <ln-> r11498 breaks right click scrolling on intel macs [...]"
23:46:36  <SpComb>
23:46:52  <SpComb> in case anyone is interested in what I'm doing, I'm not trying to submit it for inclusion in trunk or anything :P
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23:47:25  <SpComb> although it's currently written in such a way that it doesn't break anything except win32 if you turn it on
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23:49:57  <egladil> ln-: well, he never said it was _only_ on intel macs ;)
23:50:40  <ln-> true
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23:52:55  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: btw, mac keyboards have function keys F1..F16, the new ones even up to F19.
23:53:22  <Gonozal_VIII> why do you need that?
23:54:30  <ln-> mac programs very rarely use function keys at all, instead many of them have operating system level functionality such as adjusting screen brightness, volume, or so.
23:55:00  <egladil> and you can bind exposé and such to them :)
23:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> PCs have "multimedia keys" instead
23:56:14  <Gonozal_VIII> my laptop has a fn key that works in combination with f1-f8
23:56:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> laptops had that for ages...
23:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> but those are usually controlled by the BIOS instead
23:57:26  <egladil> macs don't have BIOS ;)
23:57:27  <ln-> what's this key above 7 on the numpad?
23:57:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> the Num key?
23:57:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> to switch between numbers or arrows?
23:57:50  <ln-> the mac keyboard
23:57:50  <Gonozal_VIII> activates the numpad
23:57:56  <Gonozal_VIII> ah
23:58:26  <egladil> no idea, i have an ibook so not the same layout
23:59:00  <egladil> above my numpad seven (which happens to coincide with the ordinary seven) there is f6/numlock
23:59:38  <ln-> ah, ok. i have an ibook too, but last summer i bought a separate mac keyboard so i can use my ibook with an external monitor, mouse and keyboard now.

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